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Topic: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2006-04-14 23:05:15 and read 7383 times.

In 1989, four US Airlines served Hamburg.

Delta flew nonstop from Atlanta.

Pan Am flew nonstop from New York and also had IGS services to Berlin and a flight to London that connected to flights that went to LA/San Fran/Miami and Washington.

American flew via Dusseldorf to Chicago

TWA flew via Amsterdam to New York

After PA sold its Heathrow routes to UA, United served Hamburg for several years.

Today only Continental flies nonstop, from Newark.

Why has Hamburg lost so much service to the USA over the years?

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM:why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2006-04-14 23:08:23 and read 7376 times.

Probably a few factors. Several of those airlines have had bankruptcy problems since the 1980s and that often results in cutting of routes, especially with expensive widebody aircraft (example - NW parking its 747s recently).

I'd also say the emergence of FRA as a major, major international hub has drawn some traffic away from Hamburg.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM:why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2006-04-14 23:09:05 and read 7360 times.

HAM, like many small European markets, is very low-yielding. DL has started, stopped and then re-started service there twice. AA pulled out after about two years in the early 1990s, and UA pulled out after LH began codesharing with them in the mid-1990s.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM:why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Boeing757/767
Posted 2006-04-14 23:11:33 and read 7360 times.

Also, NW had 747 service HAM-Copenhagen-JFK.

I myself enjoyed flying Pan Am twice in the 80s, nonstop from JFK. Very convenient.

I would think it had a lot to do with the recession in the early 90s, when those aircraft became too uneconomical to operate, whereas the 757 (CO) is a good size for the market today.

I would think DL service to ATL would work again.

HAM was one of those secondary markets (after big hubs and bigger cities) that never recovered from the cutbacks in the early 90s. Also, the city, while important in business, never was much of a tourism draw that could at least fill up the back of the plane.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2006-04-14 23:12:25 and read 7347 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
HAM, like many small European markets, is very low-yielding. DL has started, stopped and then re-started service there twice. AA pulled out after about two years in the early 1990s, and UA pulled out after LH began codesharing with them in the mid-1990s.

Good point.

Also consider that airlines reorganized their route systems around central hubs, thus LH focused on flying its transatlantic routes out of FRA and MUC and cities like HAM lost out. And, with the wonderful world of codeshares and alliances, many nonstop and direct services were dropped - KL/NW can get you to HAM via AMS, DL/AF can get you to Hamburg via CDG, UA/LH can get you to HAM via FRA, etc. etc.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2006-04-14 23:18:01 and read 7341 times.

Many things have changed in the last 20 years

West & East Germany were unified and the entire German aviation landscape looks different.

Lufthansa was a founding member of Star and has since heavily tilted German intercontinental traffic to center on Frankfurt and a lesser degree Munich.
Star's market and distribution strenght also has gone long way to making non Star airlines leery of gaining inroads into the German market.

The whole alliance relationships have also in many ways shifted traffic concentrations to key member hubs with AMS/CDG being primary for Skyteam in Europe and LHR being the leader for Oneworld.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2006-04-14 23:28:07 and read 7297 times.

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 3):
Also, NW had 747 service HAM-Copenhagen-JFK.

That's right. IIRC they had that route as well as some others to Scandanavia/Northern Europe including MIA-JFK-ARN, BOS-GLA, MIA-CPH, MSP-FBU, JFK-CPH-FBU, and BOS-DUB-SNN.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DTW757
Posted 2006-04-14 23:29:47 and read 7297 times.

My very first airline flight was to HAM on Northwest Orient in 1982. We left DTW on a 747, connected at JFK to another 747 and made a stop at CPH. I think NW pulled out of HAM a few years after that.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Humberside
Posted 2006-04-15 18:29:45 and read 7036 times.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Thread starter):
Today only Continental flies nonstop, from Newark.

Things should improve soon with EK to JFK

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2006-04-15 18:49:56 and read 7017 times.

I think the things said above are correct, but I would also guess that we might see more flights from smaller airports to the US in Germany soon. For example, CGN is served from May 11th, DUS will be served, Emirates flies HAM-JFK, TXL is served.

It can be noted, that these flights usually go to the hubs of the US airlines... CGN-EWR to the Continental hub is one example. So I would expect more direct flights in the future...

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: A319XFW
Posted 2006-04-15 18:55:07 and read 7005 times.

Another reason for HAM to be 'large' pre-reunification was that it was only one of 3 airports allowed to serve West-Berlin (with FRA and MUC). And this only by non-German airlines.
I would hazard a guess, that quite a few people flying to HAM from the US changed there and continued on to Berlin.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2006-04-15 19:27:34 and read 6963 times.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
I would hazard a guess, that quite a few people flying to HAM from the US changed there and continued on to Berlin.

Good point. And PA as noted above flew several IGS flights daily to Berlin and I believe at one time or another TWA flew HAM-TXL several times daily as well.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DTW757
Posted 2006-04-15 21:16:52 and read 6872 times.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 11):
I believe at one time or another TWA flew HAM-TXL several times daily as well.

That's correct. On my 1989 visit to HAM, I flew TWA. It was 727-31 service from AMS-HAM-TXL. Of all my 727 flights, this trip in and out of HAM were my only 727-100 series flights.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-04-15 21:25:26 and read 6862 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
HAM, like many small European markets

HAM is not exactly a small market.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DETA737
Posted 2006-04-15 21:38:05 and read 6841 times.

In the days before open skies treaties became a reality international routes were prized and airlines were quicker to serve a route if they obtained the route authority for fear of losing it. I suspect that once a bilateral was signed by the United States and (West) Germany that many airlines took advantage of the oportunity to serve Hamburg. Also in the days before alliances airlines were more eager to serve a variety of destinations even if the flights included one or two stops.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: CRGsFuture
Posted 2006-04-15 21:41:09 and read 6839 times.

You guys could laugh at me for saying this but besides LH focusing on the FRA and MUC markets with Star and all; the German railroad also has a huge effect on it. I can fly to LH or train it to HAM plus, the city itself is a huge center for train from Europe both east and west. And the ICE is one of the world's most advanced train systems hence why it makes sense.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: HAM
Posted 2006-04-16 10:03:13 and read 6692 times.

If I´m not mistaken, that DL flight HAM-ATL had a stop in LHR. I was on one of those flights as a kid.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: LTU932
Posted 2006-04-16 10:18:21 and read 6680 times.

LTU must have had a transatlantic charter service out of HAM in the 80's. I remember I flew to HAM from MIA nonstop on one of their L-1011s in 1989.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Thread starter):
After PA sold its Heathrow routes to UA, United served Hamburg for several years.

Wasn't that actually DL? I never heard someone mention UA in HAM until today. I only know of DL getting flights to HAM after PA sold their LHR routes.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DualQual
Posted 2006-04-16 21:16:21 and read 6555 times.

Quoting HAM" class=quote target=_blank>HAM (Reply 16):
If I´m not mistaken, that DL flight HAM-ATL had a stop in LHR. I was on one of those flights as a kid.

Unless it was with the old PA interchange service in the 70's, DL has never served LHR. It may have gone via FRA if it wasn't a non-stop.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Mats
Posted 2006-04-17 00:36:34 and read 6477 times.

In 1992 I flew on a Lufthansa A310-300 from Berlin/Tegel to Newark by way of Hamburg. There was a Delta 767-300ER next to us; it flew from Berlin, taking off at the same time from the gate next door and landed in Hamburg at the gate next store. The Delta flight continued to Atlanta.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2006-04-17 00:39:55 and read 6471 times.

Quoting HAM" class=quote target=_blank>HAM (Reply 16):
If I�m not mistaken, that DL flight HAM-ATL had a stop in LHR. I was on one of those flights as a kid.

Wrong London airport, as the flight in the beginning stopped in LGW, not LHR.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2006-04-17 00:58:48 and read 6451 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
Wasn't that actually DL? I never heard someone mention UA in HAM until today. I only know of DL getting flights to HAM after PA sold their LHR routes

No, it was UA who got PA's LHR routes in 1991 before the rest of the Atlantic network was sold to Delta. United served HAM from LHR between 1991 and 1994.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: LTU932
Posted 2006-04-17 02:30:14 and read 6399 times.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 21):
No, it was UA who got PA's LHR routes in 1991 before the rest of the Atlantic network was sold to Delta. United served HAM from LHR between 1991 and 1994.

Thanks. I knew UA got PA's LHR routes, but I was more referring to the timeframe. I should have phrased my question better.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: HAM
Posted 2006-04-17 10:36:48 and read 6303 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 20):
Wrong London airport, as the flight in the beginning stopped in LGW, not LHR

thanks! i was too little to realize what airport it was, but i clearly remember having stopped in london.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2006-04-17 20:47:17 and read 6155 times.

I suggest to the people interested in this thread to also check out the thread about EK's coming third DXB-JFK flight, which flight will be route via HAM. Several posts in that thread discuss the importance of HAM as a trans-Atlantic O&D destination, the potential (or lack of it) for interesting margins, etcetera.

In my opinion, the hub & spoke system, coupled with the growth of multi-carrier alliances, has been largely responsible for less trans-Atlantic service to airports like HAM, LYS, DUS, TXL, etc. This approach to operations results in more and more passengers transitting through hubs like LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, etcetera, and less service between non-hub European airports and United States cities.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Cory6188
Posted 2006-04-18 03:28:26 and read 6041 times.

Speaking of the fact that CO to EWR is the only service to the US at present, does anyone have any idea as to how it is doing? Is the route doing better than expectations, about on target, or underperforming?

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2006-04-18 21:18:23 and read 5936 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 24):
In my opinion, the hub & spoke system, coupled with the growth of multi-carrier alliances, has been largely responsible for less trans-Atlantic service to airports like HAM, LYS, DUS, TXL, etc. This approach to operations results in more and more passengers transitting through hubs like LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, etcetera, and less service between non-hub European airports and United States cities.

very good point. In fact through the years PA's HAM flight usually extended with a tag along to Nuremberg, Berlin or Dusseldorf, all cities that get little if any same plane service to USA these days.

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Humberside
Posted 2006-04-18 22:33:27 and read 5902 times.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 26):
very good point. In fact through the years PA's HAM flight usually extended with a tag along to Nuremberg, Berlin or Dusseldorf, all cities that get little if any same plane service to USA these days.

Berlin: CO to EWR and DL to JFK (only in the past year or two though)
DUS: Privitair for LH to EWR and ORD, plus some leisure orientated scheduled flights from LTU

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2006-04-18 22:59:57 and read 5876 times.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 27):
plus some leisure orientated scheduled flights from LTU

Not to forget scheduled (daily?) service to JFK as well  Wink .

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: Delta777Jet
Posted 2006-04-18 23:12:41 and read 5853 times.

Lufthansa had a nonstop DC-10 service from HAM to MIA in the 80`s !!!!

TWA served HAM via AMS (with 727)
Delta first JFK nonstop (taken over from PA) with A-310 then pulled back
and came back with AMS 767-300
Pan Am had A-310 nonstops to JFK 5x a week (taken over by Delta)
United 727 service to LHR onto US
Continental just started last May with daily (winter 4x) 757 service to EWR
Northwest did the o.m. 747 service via CPH to JFK/DTW (Northwest Orient)
American did serve HAM briefly at the beginning of the 90`s with 762 via DUS
(later TXL-DUS-ORD)

Topic: RE: US Airlines To HAM: Why So Many In 80s But Not Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2006-04-18 23:55:03 and read 5811 times.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
Another reason for HAM to be 'large' pre-reunification was that it was only one of 3 airports allowed to serve West-Berlin (with FRA and MUC). And this only by non-German airlines.
I would hazard a guess, that quite a few people flying to HAM from the US changed there and continued on to Berlin.

That is not correct, there where 3 air corridors, but more cities served, such as HAM (PA+BE) BRE (BE) HAJ /PA+BE, DUS (AF+BE) CGN (BE) FRA (PA + TW) NUE (PA) STR (PA) and MUC (PA+BE) + a seasonal service BE to GWT

The transit traffic to and from the US was usually via FRA and on PA, TW served that route only a short time.


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