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Topic: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2006-05-15 01:55:50 and read 8690 times.

At ATL, there are no plans to enlarge any of the gates at Concourse E to support the A380. However, with the construction of the East International Terminal and Concourse F, A380-sized gates could be built in Concourse F. Why won't ATL support the A380? DEN is supporting it, and I do believe that DFW will support it. Any thoughts on this?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Drerx7
Posted 2006-05-15 02:12:56 and read 8655 times.

The quick and dirty answer is because its too much money for too little benefit. ATL probably wouldn't see A380 service even if it was to support it -- and even if they did see the service they'd be spending millions of dollars for maybe 1 A380 pax flight a day.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Petmbro
Posted 2006-05-15 02:37:59 and read 8578 times.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 1):
The quick and dirty answer is because its too much money for too little benefit.

The O/D for ATL internationally isn't large enough to warrant an A380 flight. The 747 currently works fine for ATL's larger markets which demand greater capacity.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Crosswind
Posted 2006-05-15 03:13:52 and read 8494 times.

Quoting Petmbro (Reply 2):
The O/D for ATL internationally isn't large enough to warrant an A380 flight. The 747 currently works fine for ATL's larger markets which demand greater capacity.

The only scheduled 747 passenger service at ATL is by Korean Air, and that's been the only one for several years now. ATL is a long way down the list of airports where A380 capability is required.

Regards
CROSSWIND

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Mycrj17
Posted 2006-05-15 03:16:18 and read 8491 times.

The plane is not a Delta aircraft, so ATL wants nothing to do with it...

[Edited 2006-05-15 03:17:51]

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DeltaFFinDFW
Posted 2006-05-15 03:18:47 and read 8477 times.

The only reason DFW is A380 ready is because the built the new Terminal D. It would have been stupid to. That being said, DFW will probably not see A280 pax service anytime. Of course, I think DFW could be on the top of the list to see A380F service.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: ContnlEliteCMH
Posted 2006-05-15 03:18:54 and read 8477 times.

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 3):
The only scheduled 747 passenger service at ATL is by Korean Air,

I taxied in to the gate behind one of those -- in an ERJ-145. I felt very... small. I could hear the whine of the engines from the big four-holer when it would turn corners. Veeeery cool. It is *still* the most majestic plane in the sky.

I could probably get the same sense of awe out of the A380, though I'm not sure it would appeal to my sense of aesthetics quite as well.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Spoke2Spoke
Posted 2006-05-15 03:45:57 and read 8415 times.

Most likely no A380 customers have approached ATL to make it compatible. I'm sure their management has considered the future may require A380 access, and they probably have a high-level idea of what it would take. But why spend the money before it is needed?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2006-05-15 03:51:39 and read 8396 times.

As someone stated...DL and Air Tran have not ordered it so ATL does not need it...grin. DEN and other stations are going for it because either the main carrier or one of it's alliance partners will run it. Star and OneWorld each have several carriers ordering....though not their US members.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2006-05-15 03:56:49 and read 8388 times.

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 7):
Most likely no A380 customers have approached ATL to make it compatible. I'm sure their management has considered the future may require A380 access, and they probably have a high-level idea of what it would take. But why spend the money before it is needed?

My point exactly. They did get the taxiway and bridges over I-285 for the new 5th runway, 10-28 A380 ready just for that possibility in the future that they will be compelled to take an A380. Also runway 9L-27R will be extended to 13,300' for a fully laden A380 can depart effectively without any weight restrictions. But why spend the money hoping for something that is likely to go to 4-5 other airports first given the logistics of the Asian and Middle-Eastern carriers that are likely to use the A380 upon the launch of service years. But the most likely North American Airports that will need to be A380 ready sooner than later are LAX, SFO, JFK, YYZ & YVR, and perhaps MEM and IND for freight. I highly doubt DEN will see A380 service on a regular basis until after 2010 perhaps. DEN does have a 16,000' runway for A380 departures. Not sure if they have the gates big enough for one out in Concourse C.

[Edited 2006-05-15 04:30:52]

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-05-15 04:01:59 and read 8362 times.

Quoting Mycrj17 (Reply 4):
The plane is not a Delta aircraft, so ATL wants nothing to do with it...

Sad, but possibly true.

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 7):
Most likely no A380 customers have approached ATL to make it compatible.

I know I read something somewhere (I'll try to find it) that said ATL was ok to land the A380 and even let it taxi but the gates were an issue. Until we actually get some additional foreign carriers in ATL who have plans to run the A380 we'll not see one. Perhaps a UPS or FedEx one when they get them but not before then I think.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-05-15 04:24:29 and read 8281 times.

My own feeling is that FedEx and/or UPS are going to use the A380 very sparingly. It is only really needed on routes where they have the right only to run, say, one flight a day between the US (or a foreign hub) and a major, restricted, foreign city that generates high-value traffic (like someplace in China). Otherwise, it can be done with a 747 for a much lower capital cost and the Whale isn't needed.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Smokeyrosco
Posted 2006-05-15 04:31:58 and read 8253 times.

Quoting Mycrj17 (Reply 4):
The plane is not a Delta aircraft, so ATL wants nothing to do with it...

this is my feeling too

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Centrair
Posted 2006-05-15 04:45:23 and read 8214 times.

Just like ATL, here in NGO the only reason we supported the A380 was incase of an emergency, a charter flies in or what not. One gate is A380 compatible but even then it is not a double deck jetway. It is a 747 gate otherwise and barely gets used for the 747s (don't get many of those anymore anyway) but does get used for CX's 773s.

Otherwise we will see Cargo versions (FEDEX), but they don't need a gate.

I think many airports will forego remodeling terminals for the A380 until someone says they would like to fly in with one. If they can support a 744 then they should be able to support an A380 in limited fashion as they fit into the same box. The only major issue is the taxi ways but even that could be dealt with in an emergency or rare case. IMHO the only airports that should upgrade terminals for the Pax version in the US are JFK, LAX, SFO, and maybe ORD.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: JetBlueLuv
Posted 2006-05-15 05:04:08 and read 8160 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):
But the most likely North American Airports that will need to be A380 ready sooner than later are LAX, SFO, JFK, YYZ & YVR, and perhaps MEM and IND for freight.

I know that MEM is finishing up its adjustments for the A380...I believe hangar space is all that is left since MEM is going to be sporting the FX A380 ops for the lower 48.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Mycrj17
Posted 2006-05-15 05:11:27 and read 8145 times.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 12):
this is my feeling too

Thank you  biggrin 

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Zone1
Posted 2006-05-15 05:15:21 and read 8111 times.

IF KE stays as SkyTeam's prominent Asian airline I could see them flying the A380 to ATL some time in the future. If DL and AF feel that it would benificial to fly an A380 between the two cities we might see one in AF livery land in ATL, but I think the 3 DL flights and 1 AF flight is just fine.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Zippyjet
Posted 2006-05-15 05:16:35 and read 8111 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, with the construction of the East International Terminal and Concourse F,

Concourse F? Whats the skinny on this project? Which airlines will occupy it? Is this also going to be an international terminal? When is F supposed to open?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-15 06:36:05 and read 7957 times.

An airport has to think...how much are you willing to spend to get the upgrade from a 747 to an A380.... for 1-2 flights its not worth that much.... certainly not tens of millions of dollars...

I beleive i even read something where ATL said that if there is that much more demand, the airline will add a 2nd frequency, which improves flight options for passengers.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Panamair
Posted 2006-05-15 06:37:33 and read 7957 times.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
I think many airports will forego remodeling terminals for the A380 until someone says they would like to fly in with one.

Actually, just having someone say they would like to fly in the A380 would not be enough for some of these airports - they would require some longer-term commitment to justify the costs. After all, an airline could simply fly the A380 in for one season and then pull it out after finding out that the loads/revenues don't justify it and the airport would have spent all the money for nought....

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-05-15 06:56:35 and read 7918 times.

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 17):
Concourse F? Whats the skinny on this project? Which airlines will occupy it? Is this also going to be an international terminal? When is F supposed to open?

Currently on hold due to disagreements between the design team and the airport authority (read that as the city of Atlanta and their cronies weren't getting a big enough piece of the pie) have delayed it indefinitely.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2006-05-15 09:57:43 and read 7753 times.

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 16):
IF KE stays as SkyTeam's prominent Asian airline I could see them flying the A380 to ATL some time in the future.

Before KE would bring the A380 to ATL, they, or DL, would rather add a second flight, which would also be a plus in terms of frequency. No airline is gonna bring the A380 into ATL. AF is slowly disappearing from ATL as it seems, and LH/BA/KL, if they even were to order A380s to begin with in the latter cases, simply do not have the demand to begin with, or else they'd be bringing in 744s. And for FX and UX, MEM and SDF are too close for an A380 to be wasted on such short flights, and neither has int'l routes out of ATL to warrant it.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2006-05-15 15:02:56 and read 7555 times.

The question is why is Las Vegas not preparing for the A380. That's the most short-sighted view of any airport manager/community.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2006-05-15 15:17:56 and read 7518 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 22):
The question is why is Las Vegas not preparing for the A380. That's the most short-sighted view of any airport manager/community.

LAS will be getting a second airport in the next few years. The airfield at McCarren is built out as much as they can do with both sets of runways doubled up. One of the runways is close to 14,000' in length which could accommodate an A380 for departure without any weight restrictions. this is sufficient given that LAS is a high desert airport at about 2,300' in elevation (DEN is 5,300' hence the need to go to 16,000 x 200' there). To my knowledge LAS doesn't have many taxiways that cross freeways etc that would need to be re-enforced to accommodate the white-whale jet. WN and HP/US operate a vast majority of the flights in and out of LAS, DL operates most of the traffic in and out of ATL and SLC although the later would face weight restrictions since the longest runways at SLC 34-16-R&L are only about 12,000' X 150.' At 4,300' in elevation SLC would need to have a 15,000 x 150' to handle an A380 on a reasonably regular basis.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2006-05-15 16:23:58 and read 7399 times.

The point about LAS is that, like Orlando, it's a huge destination with low fares and therefore, filling an A380 into and out of LAS (regardless of hub carrier) is likely going to be pretty easy sooner rather than later. To me, other than the largest local O&Ds (and the obvious markets), i.e. LAX, JFK, ORD, Las Vegas should be preparing to accommodate the A380, sooner rather than later. Airports like ATL, DEN, etc. are unlikely to see an A380 prior to a market like LAS or MCO.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-15 17:32:06 and read 7290 times.

It all depends on the cost to upgrade.

Why would an airport manager spend $25 million to upgrade facilities for 2-5 daily flights, when if the demand is there anyways, they would likely just get additional frequency which ultimately leads to better flight options?

Its all about the cost-benefit analysis

ATL wouldnt be seeing many at all, therefore any significant costs makes it not worth it.

LAS i believe the issue there is in the taxiway/runway bridges that would need a significant and expensive upgrade.

Spending millions to upgrade for an extra 100-500 more passengers per day is a waste of $$$

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2006-05-15 17:56:35 and read 7228 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 25):
ATL wouldnt be seeing many at all, therefore any significant costs makes it not worth it.

LAS I believe the issue there is in the taxiway/runway bridges that would need a significant and expensive upgrade.

LAS is the terminals. I don't think the runway/taxiway setup at McCarren is an issue. The Asian and Middle-Eastern airlines (Singapore, Emirates etc...) aren't likely to be flying these into LAS as the launch customers. So regularly scheduled service of an A380 to LAS is still some time off as well. McCarren could handle a charter or two, or an emergency (the later better than SLC). The same could be said for ATL. But most likely over the next year or two LAX, SFO, YVR, NYC-JFK & YYZ will be the airports likely to have the A380 as a regular visitor via scheduled service as North American Continent gateways. LAS will likely build their second airport currently being planned to better accommodate scheduled A380 service. Huge O&D airports like LAS and MCO, as well as secondary North American gateways like ATL & DFW will come 5-6 years from now.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2006-05-15 17:58:32 and read 7226 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 25):
Spending millions to upgrade for an extra 100-500 more passengers per day is a waste of $$$

This is a very short-sighted mindset. These days in any global industry, you snooze, you lose. However, the basic idea that the cost benefit analysis does not favor making the necessary modifications to make ATL, A380 enabled, is correct.

But I'll explain why it is a short-sighted mindset. Do not underestimate the value of added passengers in the local and airport economy, no matter how small that number may be. In addition, and A380 by itself, brings more fee revenue to the airport than any other aircraft. It also requires more support personel while on the ground which means more jobs. More jobs translates into more tax dollars. And chances are that when one airline starts operating the aircraft, others will follow suit.

Having said that, I agree 100% with the idea that ATL will not see an A380 anytime soon, even if they were ready for it.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2006-05-15 18:23:05 and read 7175 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 25):
Spending millions to upgrade for an extra 100-500 more passengers per day is a waste of $$$

I suppose if you're myopic and short-sighted. An additional 100-500 "incremental" international passengers a day adds up to tens of millions of dollars in the economy very quickly.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Areopagus
Posted 2006-05-15 18:43:32 and read 7114 times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 27):
Having said that, I agree 100% with the idea that ATL will not see an A380 anytime soon, even if they were ready for it.

Doesn't this sentence shoot down the rest of your arguments?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-15 19:35:53 and read 7013 times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 27):
This is a very short-sighted mindset.



Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 28):
I suppose if you're myopic and short-sighted. An additional 100-500 "incremental" international passengers a day adds up to tens of millions of dollars in the economy very quickly.

Lets remember and assume that there is a viable alternative (B777/747) already being accomodated, therefore you are already serving the market and are already getting the passengers.

The 100-500 passengers assumes between 1 and 5 A380s.

An airport manager isnt going to care what the economic benefit of those passengers spending $$ at the restarunts in the city, because that doesnt pay the airport's bills. Typically airports see a benefit of between $5 and $15 per passenger, between parking PFC and concessions etc...

Assuming $10 benefit per passenger at 100 extra daily passengers is an annual benefit of $365,000

An upgrade of $5 million would see a full return in about 13 years
An upgrade of $25 million would see a return in about 68 years

Assuming $10 benefit per passenger at 500 extra daily passengers is an annual benefit of $1.8 million

So as you near 5 A380s per day the return on a $5-25 million upgrade becomes more feasible.

Im not saying the airports should not plan for these facilities.... THAT would be short sighted! But just because they arent constructing these now does not imply the airports are necessarily behind the curve. Im sure dozens of US airports have "plans" or "concepts" for A380 facilities, but a smart airport will build it only when its financially prudent (good return timeframe) to do so.

Im sure ATL has some rough A380 plans/concepts but if its going to be 10-15 years before ATL will see 5 daily construction would not be necessary for another 5-10 years.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2006-05-15 19:58:04 and read 6696 times.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 29):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 27):
Having said that, I agree 100% with the idea that ATL will not see an A380 anytime soon, even if they were ready for it.

Doesn't this sentence shoot down the rest of your arguments?

How so? My argument was about underestimating the value of added passengers not about whether ATL should or should not be A380 ready.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 30):
Assuming $10 benefit per passenger at 100 extra daily passengers is an annual benefit of $365,000

I have a feeling it's a lot more than $10 per passenger. How much more would ATL charge in landing fees for an A380? Ticket taxes and added fees alone are more than $10. Then there's the added cost per passenger for services like airport rental car fees and sales from concession stands. And then there's the added money into the local economy that those extra passengers bring in.

I guess you could say that all can be achieved by bringing an extra flight. Well, not really. The economics of operating an extra flight are very different than operating just one larger flight. You pay double for everything including fuel and crew, to operate an extra flight. Not to mention, the airline actually needs to buy an extra airplane if one doesn't exist  Smile

Regardles of all the factors, the cost/benefit analysis does not favor ATL nearly as much as any other major US gateway.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-15 20:48:12 and read 6136 times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 31):
You pay double for everything including fuel and crew, to operate an extra flight. Not to mention, the airline actually needs to buy an extra airplane if one doesn't exist

Thats not the airports problem or concern  Wink

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 31):
I have a feeling it's a lot more than $10 per passenger.

Most airports report somewhere between $5 and $15, remember there is also a cost per passenger in terms of utilities for the airport too not even mentioned.

In addition, we are only talking about an upgrade from a 777/747/A340 to an A380, not a new A380 flight.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 31):
And then there's the added money into the local economy that those extra passengers bring in.

Again...while it is a benefit...this $$$ doesnt pay the airports bills!

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2006-05-15 21:27:30 and read 5744 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 30):
An airport manager isnt going to care what the economic benefit of those passengers spending $$ at the restarunts in the city, because that doesnt pay the airport's bills. Typically airports see a benefit of between $5 and $15 per passenger, between parking PFC and concessions etc...

An airport manager of one of the fastest growing cities in the U.S. and one of the most popular destinations in the world better damn well care about his airport's ability to handle the largest aircraft in the world. To even publicly say that the airport is not going to upgrade it's facilities for the A380 is a statement he will ultimately regret. The only question is when.

I'm not saying that LAS should hurry and make the changes now, but they better well start figuring out the timeframe with which they need to.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-05-15 21:27:30 and read 5744 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):
I don't think the runway/taxiway setup at McCarren is an issue.



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 25):
LAS i believe the issue there is in the taxiway/runway bridges that would need a significant and expensive upgrade.

RL757PVD is correct, Interstate 215 also known as the airport connecter runs right under both 25's runways and associated taxiways. That might need to be re-enforced for a A380 to land in LAS.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Congaboy
Posted 2006-05-15 21:38:43 and read 5641 times.

Perhaps an easy way to explain it might be as follows:

If an airport wants to invest in infrastructure, it probably also wants to maximize revenue...why upgrade 1 or 2 gates for a single aircraft type, when for similar money, you could expand a concourse that might get you 10-20 turns a day with smaller aircraft? You can pump more passengers through the terminal, get more in landing and facility charges, and have more options.

ATL is a real-life example of why the whale is a niche aircraft.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-15 21:41:24 and read 5612 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 33):
To even publicly say that the airport is not going to upgrade it's facilities for the A380 is a statement he will ultimately regret. The only question is when.

However, a statement like that would assume they planned for these facilities and found it not to be beneficial to pursue them at this time. Just because they arent building it now, doesnt mean they wont be 5 years from now. His statement refers to NOW... he did not say " we will NEVER upgrade"... that one he would likely retract.

Im sure LAS and ATL have the plans for an A380 upgrade available and when the time comes that its feasible and prudent they will do it.

It just comes down what is it worth ***from the airport managers perspective NOT the airlines or passengers*** as to what the difference is from a 747 to an A380. Its going to take more than a small handful of flights to have any sort of decent (10-20 year) payoff, and thats what a good airport manager will look for.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Sllevin
Posted 2006-05-15 21:54:53 and read 5430 times.

Spending money on A380's at ATL would be as useful as just setting the money out in the middle of the runway and burning it. Build A380-size gates now? So that there's fewer gates to handle the traffic that will actually COME to ATL over the next 20 years?

Steve

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2006-05-15 22:05:21 and read 5331 times.

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 37):
Spending money on A380's at ATL would be as useful as just setting the money out in the middle of the runway and burning it. Build A380-size gates now? So that there's fewer gates to handle the traffic that will actually COME to ATL over the next 20 years?

What I have been trying to ask is not to convert the gates at Concourse E to fit the A380, but build A380-sized gates at the future Concourse F, which will be built at least in 2010.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2006-05-15 22:07:58 and read 5309 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 36):
However, a statement like that would assume they planned for these facilities and found it not to be beneficial to pursue them at this time. Just because they arent building it now, doesnt mean they wont be 5 years from now. His statement refers to NOW... he did not say " we will NEVER upgrade"... that one he would likely retract.

I suspect you're right. I just think the way he said it was a dumb, and I think an airport manager of an airport like LAS should be more careful about how they express issues like this.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: 7E72004
Posted 2006-05-15 22:09:35 and read 5274 times.

It really comes down to cost/benefit...Unless there were going to be a bunch of A380 flights to ATL or any city for that matter, then i don't think it would be worth spending millions of dollars for improvements when for a "benefit" of have a couple/few A380 flights.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-05-15 22:19:08 and read 5175 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 34):
Interstate 215 also known as the airport connecter runs right under both 25's runways and associated taxiways.

Yup, and those are the two longest runways at LAS. I doubt the A380 would have difficulty landing on the 1-19's, but it would absolutely need the length on the 7-25's to make it out most of the time.

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 35):
If an airport wants to invest in infrastructure, it probably also wants to maximize revenue...why upgrade 1 or 2 gates for a single aircraft type, when for similar money, you could expand a concourse that might get you 10-20 turns a day with smaller aircraft?

That is exactly what I was thinking. Take LAS and a hypothetical expansion which could build an A380 gate for perhaps 4 daily turns of 550-seat aircraft or 2 gates for WN, operating 10 daily turns of 137-seat aircraft at each gate. The A380 gate gets you 2200 arriving and depating seats, while the two 737 gates yield 2740 arriving and departing seats.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 33):
An airport manager of one of the fastest growing cities in the U.S. and one of the most popular destinations in the world better damn well care about his airport's ability to handle the largest aircraft in the world.

Um, why? LAS sees but a handful of 747's as it is. Do you honestly believe that airlines are going to switch to RNO or IFP as destinations just because LAS can't handle the A380? It's just like all the ridiculous prattle some posters here spewed about LAX not upgrading for the A380 and how that would spell doom for Los Angeles. Sure, airlines are going to abandon huge O&D markets (and give that business up to their competitors) simply because they can't fly the A380 into an airport. While we're at it, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2006-05-15 23:11:53 and read 4681 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 32):
Again...while it is a benefit...this $$$ doesnt pay the airports bills!

Are you crazy? Are you telling me airports don't receive local/State and Federal money for construction project? What country do you live in?  Smile

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: COA735
Posted 2006-05-15 23:27:27 and read 4542 times.

Does anyone know if MCO is planning for 380 ops? As mentioned above, it is a BIG destination.

JM  mischievous 

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Tom in NO
Posted 2006-05-15 23:52:37 and read 4341 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 39):
I think an airport manager of an airport like LAS should be more careful about how they express issues like this.

Randy Walker has been charge of LAS for almost as long as I can remember. He has led that airport through a period of rapid growth. When Randy says he's not ready to commit LAS,or the funds involved, to A380 capabilities, he knows what he's talking about.

Airports, especially those in the US, find it tough to operate under the "build it and they will come" attitude (BNA, RDU, and PIT have been finding that one out the hard way). We find it tough enough to meet a budget from year to year.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 1):
The quick and dirty answer is because its too much money for too little benefit.

Precisely.....

Tom at MSY

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-05-16 00:21:20 and read 4129 times.

Quoting COA735 (Reply 43):
Does anyone know if MCO is planning for 380 ops?

Orlando claims they are A380 ready right now. I would guess that they can use the existing 747 gates that Virgin uses today in the Delta airside. If SRB ever pulls the trigger on those A380 orders you just might see the whale jet dropping off thousands of additional chavs on their way to the Mouse House.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-05-16 00:26:08 and read 4102 times.

We are ready here at SFO...bring the Big Beast here... bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Springbok295
Posted 2006-05-16 00:48:57 and read 3913 times.

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 3):
The only scheduled 747 passenger service at ATL is by Korean Air, and that's been the only one for several years now. ATL is a long way down the list of airports where A380 capability is required.

You stand corrected, SAA have operated their 747-400 to ATL to some years now, althought they are being replaced by A340's.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-05-16 00:53:15 and read 3891 times.

Quoting Springbok295 (Reply 47):
You stand corrected, SAA have operated their 747-400 to ATL to some years now, althought they are being replaced by A340's.

SAA is pulling out of ATL in the near future. They haven't had a 744 here in quite some time as the A346 is the current bird until they are gone.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Freqflyr
Posted 2006-05-16 01:12:29 and read 3776 times.

As delta Gator said...on the top right side of the mco-Orlando airport it states,,,Yes , we are ready,,with a tail shot of a A380..here is the link


http://www.orlandoairports.net/goaa/main.htm

I will also add, I have a Clear pass that allows me to by pass the lines at security, what a blessing that is...I leave MCO many times between 4- 6 pm, when all the Virgin 747's are leaving for the UK,,,last week the line was 45 mins or more,,, I was pass the TSA gang in 3 mins....very nice..when more airport have this, it will be very sweet indeed.


cheers,
FF

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2006-05-16 01:39:23 and read 3603 times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42):

Are you crazy? Are you telling me airports don't receive local/State and Federal money for construction project? What country do you live in?

The FAA doesnt normally participate in terminal improvements, while funded usually funded through PFCs most terminal projects come from the AIRPORT budget. Even state/local funding is usually non existant for terminal projects....what country do YOU live in?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2006-05-16 05:47:03 and read 3357 times.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 44):
Airports, especially those in the US, find it tough to operate under the "build it and they will come" attitude (BNA, RDU, and PIT have been finding that one out the hard way).

I'm lost on this one? How has any of these airports done anything like building outside of their current and future needs?

BNA & RDU built when they were AA hubs.. PIT built while it was a US hub. None of them are building outside of their means now, especially since RDU is the only one building. And I don't think you will find a single person that has ever traveled to RDU that don't think something needed to be done with the cramped terminal situation there.. Both BNA and PIT have room for growth without the need to grow. RDU has been stagnant because of their lack of space to grow.

Just wondering what you were trying to say..

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Sllevin
Posted 2006-05-16 05:57:02 and read 3350 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 38):
but build A380-sized gates at the future Concourse F, which will be built at least in 2010.

And in 2010, who will have the 380's to send to ATL? I don't see AF pulling them off other routes for it.

I doubt ATL will even see a dozen daily 747's by 2020, much less 380's.

Steve

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Congaboy
Posted 2006-05-16 15:55:51 and read 3239 times.

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 52):
I doubt ATL will even see a dozen daily 747's by 2020, much less 380's.

RIght, I think ATL sets up quite well for the 787...it is the type of hub that would support long, thin routes to compliment its regional feed. Today, we see AF and BA sending 777's along with DL (using mainly 767's) to Paris and London. THe point is this...even to destinations that are major hubs, frequency is clearly preferred over volume. I don't see more than maybe a dozen U.S. airports becoming receptive to the whale.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2006-05-16 16:25:18 and read 3201 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
any of the gates at Concourse E to support the A380

ATL needn't "support" the A380, this is what the European countries are doing with subsidies  Wink

Question is, if there are airlines who want to fly to ATL with the 380, if so, the airport "shoots into its own knee" as we Germans say - not that customer friendly.
But if there are no 380 coming to ATL, why should ATL do any efforts?

FRA was ahead of its time, when they built their Terminal 2 - almost A380 ready. If other airports sleep, let them continue sleeping.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Tom in NO
Posted 2006-05-16 16:29:32 and read 3197 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 51):
Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 44):
Airports, especially those in the US, find it tough to operate under the "build it and they will come" attitude (BNA, RDU, and PIT have been finding that one out the hard way).

I'm lost on this one? How has any of these airports done anything like building outside of their current and future needs?

Check your history.....I'm referring to the new terminals BNA and RDU built/added on to for AA, and the new terminal PIT ostensibly built for US. All were built for the growth of airline hubs, and all have had major service cutbacks at those hubs, leaving large construction/bond bills for the airports to attempt to cover.

Tom at MSY

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-05-16 16:32:55 and read 3193 times.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 54):
Question is, if there are airlines who want to fly to ATL with the 380, if so, the airport "shoots into its own knee" as we Germans say - not that customer friendly.

And again, if an airline wants to fly to ATL with the A380, they're extremely unlikely to abandon the market simply because the airport isn't able to accommodate the A380. Or do you believe that AF would choose not to fly CDG-ATL and instead give all that revenue to Delta?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2006-05-16 16:38:42 and read 3172 times.

ScottB - that's called customer service. When the market "demands" 380 for special airports, the airports have to enhance.
They will (have to).

When there is only 1 airline, ATL wouldn't do that much. When there are more airlines, ATL has to do something.

The ATL "logic" would mean, we are still in the 1960's when the airports were able to handle 707 and DC 8 - where would the bigger and important airports be now, if they didn't get 747 ready?

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2006-05-16 16:43:38 and read 3152 times.

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 35):
ATL is a real-life example of why the whale is a niche aircraft.

lol, always the same "arguments" - for US standards, the 747 is a niche aircraft too. But fortunatelly there are other markets, too. Ever heared about Asia and Europe?
When the 380 is a niche aircraft, why does Boeing want to build a competitor then? And so we don't have "a single aircraft type" but two.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2006-05-16 16:50:24 and read 3140 times.

There is simply not much of any reason for most USA airports to spend money to accomodate the A-380. The A380 is designed to fly between major hubs where one of the hubs is slot restricted. The only hub that is served from ATL that is slot restricted is NRT, and that is served only by a single 772ER by DL (ie no 773, 744...).

This is also in part why no USA carrier has ordered the A-380. It is simply not designed with the USA market in mind. This is not a slam at Airbus or a prediction of failure for the A-380, just a statement of fact.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-05-16 17:01:16 and read 3118 times.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 57):
that's called customer service. When the market "demands" 380 for special airports, the airports have to enhance.
They will (have to).

When the market "demands" A380's into a given airport, the airline operators should then be very happy to fund the upgrades.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 57):
The ATL "logic" would mean, we are still in the 1960's when the airports were able to handle 707 and DC 8 - where would the bigger and important airports be now, if they didn't get 747 ready?

Well, they'd probably be about where they are right now. About half of the 30 busiest airports in the world see little more than a few (if any) 747's each day. And, in any event, the upgrades needed for the 747 in 1970 were also useful for the new generation of widebodies produced by Airbus, McDonnell-Douglas, and Lockheed. Moreover, the airlines have gotten a lot smarter about the way they run their businesses; few order airliners for prestige today, unlike in 1970.

A380-driven upgrades are useful for only a single model of aircraft for which there have been only 134 orders (for the passenger version). If an airport is building entirely new facilities designed to support 747-sized airliners, then the marginal cost of supporting the A380 at those new facilities is relatively minimal. More expensive accommodations, like rebuilding runway/taxiway bridges, should only be undertaken with sufficient justification. It is not reasonable to expect the other users of an airport to subsidize expensive upgrades which only benefit a few users.

Topic: RE: Why Won't ATL Support The A380?
Username: Congaboy
Posted 2006-05-16 18:43:18 and read 3036 times.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 58):
But fortunatelly there are other markets, too. Ever heared about Asia and Europe?

I am not criticizing the A380, NumberTwelve. And I agree with you that the 747 is indeed a niche aircraft by today's standards...how many of those do you see in ATL? And in the future? I believe that was covered earlier. I think the A380 is incredible, but in the end, it is going to be judged by how well it adds to profitability, not its engineering, its size, its magesty.

Yes, I have heard of Asia and Europe, even though I am American. I have been to both several times in my career. Question: do you think an A380 will be used from SEL to SGN, or FRA to IST? It depends on the route, doesn't it? Where ever it is!


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