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Topic: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Naritaflyer
Posted 2006-05-18 18:31:51 and read 4416 times.

Flew into YYZ this week and couldn't help notice how innefective ATC is at that airport. This observations come after several trips there, as a passenger mind you, as I'm not a pilot. Either the runways are not well located or the routing ATC makes airplanes take prolong a fl,ight by 20 minutes or so everytime. The worst situation was a US flight I was on at terminal 2 and the taxi was at least 15 minutes away even though there was a runway right there in front of terminal 2. I know Narita is not much better but given that YYZ competes with super efficient US airports I thought they would work on their productivity more.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: N766UA
Posted 2006-05-18 18:34:06 and read 4410 times.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Thread starter):
The worst situation was a US flight I was on at terminal 2 and the taxi was at least 15 minutes away even though there was a runway right there in front of terminal 2.

The runway in front of terminal 2 is at a 90 degree angle to the others. The wind was probably favoring other runways so, seeing as it intersects, it's just easier to use the favored runway for both takeoffs and landings.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2006-05-18 18:39:25 and read 4401 times.

I have never found YYZ ATC to be anything less than professional. They do have some odd departures though, but that is not the fault of ATC.

Just as an example, they have one which requires you do fly to a certain DME and then make a 2 degree course change. Like that will make much difference. I suspect that it has to do with appeasing the anti-aviation crowd who don't want an airplane flying over their house.

At any rate, Toronto is a very large airport, on par with many, many other biggies like CDG or JFK.

ATC in Toronto is good in my opinion as a pilot. The other night in fact the approach controller was excellent. We flew the ILS down to about a 300 foot ceiling and the approach controller never made a mistake or a bad vector or anything. Spacing was perfect and he was spot on. Not so at some others like IAD.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: NiagaraFlyer
Posted 2006-05-18 20:18:57 and read 4302 times.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Thread starter):
worst situation was a US flight I was on at terminal 2 and the taxi was at least 15 minutes away even though there was a runway right there in front of terminal 2.

The last time I flew out of JFK (it was a Saturday night) we had a 20min delay at the gate then a good 10 minute taxi, does that mean JFK had bad ATC? Of course not. I'd rather it be delayed then have the controllers distracted by the heavy traffic, and as for the runways well the closest one isnt always the active and thats just how things work. YYZ ATC doesn't control the winds  Smile

-Johnathan

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Rp tpa
Posted 2006-05-18 20:21:24 and read 4293 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 1):
The worst situation was a US flight I was on at terminal 2 and the taxi was at least 15 minutes away even though there was a runway right there in front of terminal 2.

The runway in front of terminal 2 is at a 90 degree angle to the others. The wind was probably favoring other runways so, seeing as it intersects, it's just easier to use the favored runway for both takeoffs and landings.

I'm going to assume that the original quote referred to runways 23/24L/24R and not the cross runways (33L-R). I'm not sure which is which since they build the new runways a few years ago, but 23 (or 24L) is the one that basically starts near the east hold, where the AC Jazz flights to the USA are parked. The one on the other side, past T3, is either 23 or 24R. I believe that ATC likes to use 24R for flights to the west and southwest, and 24L for flights to the east and south. So, if you're flying AC to LAX or YVR for example, you'll taxi past T1 and T3 to r/w 24R, even though 24L is right in front of T2. Conversely, a T3 flight going south (eg: American to Miami) will taxi all the way around past T1 and T2 to get to 24L, even though 24R is a lot closer.

I may not be totally correct on this, but this is what an AC pilot once told me.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Olympus69
Posted 2006-05-18 20:33:05 and read 4272 times.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Thread starter):
at terminal 2 and the taxi was at least 15 minutes away even though there was a runway right there in front of terminal 2.

YYZ has 2 sets of parallel runways. Sometimes one will be used for landings while the other is used for take-offs. Often the choice of runway will depend on the plane's destination so that it can be vectored to the proper airway with the least interference with other traffic. I believe the rationale is that it is cheaper to taxi further to fly a shorter distance than the other way round.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: CNZ3
Posted 2006-05-18 21:30:49 and read 4191 times.

Quoting Rp tpa (Reply 4):

You've go the idea correct, but the hold for 24R is right beside T2 Satellite, with 24L parallel to the south. Runway 23 is the north runway beyond the AC maintenance facility. There is a chart at the bottom of this page...http://www.yyznews.com/airportlog.html

As a side note, in the future Runway 23 will become 23R, as 23L is built (it will be located between taxiways Hotel & November, with the 23 end of it intersecting 15L.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: RP TPA
Posted 2006-05-18 21:53:41 and read 4153 times.

CNZ3,

Yeah, I couldnt remember which was which. Back in the good old days (ie, pre 9/11) I used to sometimes be able to sit in the flight deck for takeoff and landings. The new runway was built after that, so I wasnt sure which was which. Ironically, I was in YYZ this past Saturday, so I could have checked out the runway/taxiway signs.

When is the new 23L supposed to be built??

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: CNZ3
Posted 2006-05-19 00:30:51 and read 4015 times.

Like most things we do here, 5R/23L is an "if demand warrants it we'll build it" project. Runway 6R/24L was an example of this attitude so I assume it will be built, eventually. Don't hold your breath waiting for us to announce construction dates; it should be complete sometime before 2020.  Yeah sure

Just to get back to the topic here, noise abatement takes a high priority on inbound & outbound flights here. Some of the ATC routings make sure as to piss off as few NIMBYs as possible by making the flights go around residential areas.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Boeingfanyyz
Posted 2006-05-19 03:02:45 and read 3907 times.

YYZ ATC is nothing short of proffesional. I have been in the control tower during not so amazing wx, and I'll tell ya': these guys mean business! Your claims are invalid seeing as ATC do not control the location of the runways or the routing (see below)

You have to understand that YYZ has some of the strictest noise abaitment restrictions on this side of the universe. People are constantly bitching, and the people have to be happy!

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 5):
Sometimes one will be used for landings while the other is used for take-offs. Often the choice of runway will depend on the plane's destination so that it can be vectored to the proper airway with the least interference with other traffic.



Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 5):
I believe the rationale is that it is cheaper to taxi further to fly a shorter distance than the other way round.

Well said.

As an example, a plane bound for LGA would much rather taxi further to 06L and havce a nice, easy right turn to its next vector as opposed to staying in its climbout heading after a 05 departure for a while before being clear of conflicting traffic.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Boeingfanyyz   

[Edited 2006-05-19 03:03:48]

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: Naritaflyer
Posted 2006-05-19 16:06:57 and read 3694 times.

Quoting Rp tpa (Reply 4):
I'm going to assume that the original quote referred to runways 23/24L/24R and not the cross runways (33L-R). I'm not sure which is which since they build the new runways a few years ago, but 23 (or 24L) is the one that basically starts near the east hold, where the AC Jazz flights to the USA are parked. The one on the other side, past T3, is either 23 or 24R. I believe that ATC likes to use 24R for flights to the west and southwest, and 24L for flights to the east and south. So, if you're flying AC to LAX or YVR for example, you'll taxi past T1 and T3 to r/w 24R, even though 24L is right in front of T2. Conversely, a T3 flight going south (eg: American to Miami) will taxi all the way around past T1 and T2 to get to 24L, even though 24R is a lot closer.

Thank for all replies and this explanation.

The title of my post may have been too strong. I did not want to imply ATC is unprofessinal. Perhaps inneffecient would have been a word that expresses my feelings better.

Topic: RE: Why Is Toronto ATC So Bad?
Username: LongHauler
Posted 2006-05-19 16:53:56 and read 3652 times.

I can't imagine anyone judging Air Traffic Control from a passenger seat of an aircraft.

For obvious reasons I spend 50% of my arrivals and takeoffs at YYZ, I think I am a reasonable judge of their efficiency. 99% of the time they are as professional, efficient and obliging as anywhere on the earth. The 1% of the time I have been cursing in the cockpit, it is because I didn't have the complete picture.

Case in point: A month ago, we were arriving in YYZ late at night, and traffic was slow. For some reason we were assigned runway 23, and not 24R which would have been quicker for us. As we were reprogramming the FMS for a 23 arrival, (and cursing), some one DID query why we were using 23. The reason .... fog was rolling in from the south, and 24R was virtually unusable, in fact 23 was almost at limits. ATC was right .... we were wrong ... and one sure as heck could not have judged that from seat 3A!!!

Like most large airports on the earth, runway assignments are dictated on your departure/arrival direction, and SID/STAR used, not where you are on the field. In fact, if you look at the (efficient) runway/taxi chart for YYZ, or ORD, or DFW, or DEN et al, you will see double taxiways. That is so the ground flow is quick, as you are NOT near where you landed or where you are about to take off.

Why is that? One would ask. It is because aircraft burn a lot less fuel when taxiing to a runway in the direction of departure, than in the air, when circling the field at 7000' to get to your departure airway. (efficient)


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