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Topic: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-27 17:04:09 and read 5903 times.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/731881.html

Quote:
The Tourism Ministry has begun discussions with the British low-cost airline easyJet in an effort to accelerate the firm's plans to operate flights to here, ministry director general Eli Cohen said yesterday.

"The low-cost airline easyJet will fly to Israel in less than two years," Cohen told the Hoteliers' Association conference in Jerusalem. "We are also talking to Ryanair, and flights priced at $150-$200 is not an exaggeration."

And here a part I don't fully catch:

Quote:
Cohen said that bringing in the Ireland-based Ryanair is more complicated, since it would have to sign agreements in Europe to fly here, while easyJet can freely fly to Israel.

It looks like something concerning bilateral rights and I would assume that there is a sort of open-skies treaty Israel - UK, but not Isreal - Ireland. But if that is the case, easyJet can only fly from the UK, and maybe easyJet Switzerland from Swiss airports. Well, as that are very important markets for easyJet, it can well be worth it.

Does anybody know if Israel is considering a full open-skies treaty with the EU, like Morocco?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-06-27 17:08:22 and read 5892 times.

Eilat not Tel Aviv I would have thought.

Great move for EZY.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: LY7E7
Posted 2006-06-27 17:15:08 and read 5841 times.

Great news. Since they already serve ATH wouldn't it be wise to open a mid-east hub there?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Lewis
Posted 2006-06-27 17:16:27 and read 5841 times.

Isn't Israel a bit too far for a low cost like EasyJet to fly there? ATH is supposed to be stretching the flight limit of low costs from the UK.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BCAL
Posted 2006-06-27 17:20:42 and read 5824 times.

Good news but let us hope it will not be a repeat of the LTN-SAW saga.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: HBDAN
Posted 2006-06-27 17:22:26 and read 5811 times.

Quoting Lewis (Reply 3):
Isn't Israel a bit too far for a low cost like EasyJet to fly there? ATH is supposed to be stretching the flight limit of low costs from the UK.

STN-TLV are 3568 km away. Flight time is about 4 hours. Which A/C would EZY fly on the route???

Regards,
HBDAN

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: ARGinLON
Posted 2006-06-27 17:34:29 and read 5762 times.

I guess this is the very limit for a LCC. If I am not wrong, many UK charters including Excel Airways operate the route (but for sure they do CAI) turning thre crew around on the very same date.

Can anybody confirm this?

Brgds.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-06-27 17:35:46 and read 5762 times.

Quoting HBDAN (Reply 5):

Absolute cakewalk for the A319 - no problem year round at MTOW.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: EZYAirbus
Posted 2006-06-27 17:53:14 and read 5697 times.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 4):
Good news but let us hope it will not be a repeat of the LTN-SAW saga

the saga that has been resolved

LTN-SAW will now operate on Friday, Saturday and Sunday departing LTN at 22:25

Glenn

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BCAL
Posted 2006-06-27 20:54:51 and read 5497 times.

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 8):
the saga that has been resolved

Well that is good news but U2's website still says

Quote:
Sorry, but seats on this route are not currently available. Flights between London Luton and Istanbul will be back on sale as soon as possible subject to approval from the Turkish civil aviation authorities.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CYatUK
Posted 2006-06-27 21:01:18 and read 5478 times.

It is rumoured that Easyjet is also having talks with Cyprus officials aiming to start operations sometime within the next 1-2 years.

Having in mind that Stelios is Cypriot, I would expect such a move to happen before commencing flights to Israel. Unless they both start at the same time or unless Stelios wants to protect, in a way, the national carrier of his country!

The big questions is, in case it happens, which airports will EZY be connecting?
UK to either Cyprus or Israel is far (financially) for a LCC, isn't it?

I mean, LCCs tend to focus on shorter and usually more profitable flights which explains the fact that only a small minority of EZY flights are more than 3 hours.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BCAL
Posted 2006-06-27 21:06:20 and read 5455 times.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):
LCCs tend to focus on shorter and usually more profitable flights which explains the fact that only a small minority of EZY flights are more than 3 hours.

Agreed, but passengers are now becoming used to LCCs and their tolerance of no frills can be stretched to longer flights provided the fares are right. Besides U2 have been operating successfully to ATH for many years, which is just under 4 hours flight duration.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CYatUK
Posted 2006-06-27 21:34:46 and read 5404 times.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Besides U2 have been operating successfully to ATH for many years, which is just under 4 hours flight duration.

Agree!

Forgot to say that if everything goes to plan, CTO (Cyprus Tourism Organisation) have announced that Ryanair could be launching daily flight between LCA or PFO and Milan.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: A342
Posted 2006-06-27 21:51:10 and read 5361 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
Absolute cakewalk for the A319 - no problem year round at MTOW.

True, but IIRC U2 has the low-MTOW version (64 vs. 75.5 tons) which has much less range, 3350 km vs. 6800 km, according to the Airbus website. This is even more valid with U2's high-density interior.

LTN-SAW is 2563 km, while STN-TLV is, as HBDAN said, 3568 km, too much for the U2 A319. And I doubt they'll receive the 75.5 ton MTOW-version in the future.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-06-27 22:02:25 and read 5331 times.

Quoting A342 (Reply 13):

Who said they would operate from the UK?

Perhaps one of the European bases? Geneva maybe?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Tzadik
Posted 2006-06-27 22:08:03 and read 5305 times.

LCC's And Israel (by Tzadik Dec 21 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2506071

guess my question way back in december is not lookin' so obtuse now  Smile

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: A342
Posted 2006-06-27 22:09:38 and read 5298 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
Who said they would operate from the UK?

Perhaps one of the European bases? Geneva maybe?

In several replies there are hints at service from the UK. But anyway, GVA-TLV is 2922 km, which might be a strech on the westbound sector. SXF-TLV isn't much shorter. MXP-TLV with 2709 km however seems doable, albeit at the risk of fuel-stopping with strong headwinds.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Raffik
Posted 2006-06-27 22:25:32 and read 5260 times.

I thought this would be possible with one of their 737-700s?
If Malev can operate to Dubai and onwards with an -800, why can't U2 make the shorter flight without stopping?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-28 08:48:38 and read 5050 times.

Quoting A342 (Reply 13):
True, but IIRC U2 has the low-MTOW version (64 vs. 75.5 tons) which has much less range, 3350 km vs. 6800 km, according to the Airbus website. This is even more valid with U2's high-density interior.

Is there any actual technical difference between the low-MTOW and the high-MTOW version, or is it just a matter of certification? In the latter case, it might be worth it recertifying a bunch of planes.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):
I mean, LCCs tend to focus on shorter and usually more profitable flights which explains the fact that only a small minority of EZY flights are more than 3 hours.

Overall, the difference between LCCs, holiday/charter carriers and legacy/network/classic carriers is getting smaller and smaller. However, when easyJet sees they have a competitive advantage over other carriers operating the same route (for example, because of their lower overhead costs) they can do well on the route. They will be mostly generating new passengers and taking passengers from charter airlines.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Agreed, but passengers are now becoming used to LCCs and their tolerance of no frills can be stretched to longer flights provided the fares are right.

Wasn't this already the case for years with the holiday/charter airlines? People are flying for years from western Europe to Israel, Egypt, Cyprus and even Florida on carriers operating with 29" seat pitch, like Brittannia, Martinair, etc.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-28 08:50:50 and read 5050 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 17):
I thought this would be possible with one of their 737-700s?
If Malev can operate to Dubai and onwards with an -800, why can't U2 make the shorter flight without stopping?

The 737NGs also come in different flavours concerning max trust and max MTOW. Doesn't easyJet have a low-MTOW version of the -700 too? Ryanair has a low-MTOW version of their -800s, for those the canaries for example are a stretch, while Transavia with a similar seating lay-out but the higher trust engines, can do this without a problem.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: HBDAN
Posted 2006-06-28 09:08:03 and read 5025 times.

Quoting A342 (Reply 13):



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):

I am not speaking only about range... EZYs' A319 has 156 seats, so the price won't be as competitive as in short range legs.

Amadeus.net states followings:
LON-TLV: BA 777 and 767; LY 767 and 757
MXP-TLV: AZ 321; LY 757
FRA-TLV: LH 747 (daily) and 346 (daily); LY 738

Personally, I wouldn't enter the route with A319. For sure EZY will have to add an aircraft with more capacity: at least a B738 or A321 to have more seats and therefore reduce its CASM and be competitive on the Europe - Israel route.
 twocents 

Regards,
HBDAN

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BDKLEZ
Posted 2006-06-28 09:13:17 and read 5016 times.

For clarication, U2 operate 3 variants of the A319 within the G-reg EZY fleet of 64k, 66k and 68k MTOW respectively with (AFAIK) a max range of 1700nm which would easily include every other base east of ORY which itself, is only just about over the max range threshold.

However, do not forget that when the easyJet Airbus order was placed that there were options placed to convert some orders to A320/A321 at pre-agreed prices should the company choose to do so.

http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20021014_01.html

That considered, I see no operational reason why an Israel route from any EZY base would be a problem to realise.

 wave 

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Yazoo
Posted 2006-06-28 09:47:44 and read 4969 times.

Quite interesting more by EZY actually, however did they work out the super-security measures needed for planes flying to Israel?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: A350
Posted 2006-06-28 09:51:36 and read 4957 times.

Quoting Joost (Thread starter):
It looks like something concerning bilateral rights and I would assume that there is a sort of open-skies treaty Israel - UK, but not Isreal - Ireland.

He is probably speaking about UK-Israel flights that would be operated by FR and that are legally difficult. We have a similar situation here in Germany: German LCCs like Germanwings fly many routes to non-EU countries like Russia and Turkey but U2 and FR can't follow.

A350

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Cardiffairtaxi
Posted 2006-06-28 09:52:51 and read 4957 times.

Maybe Easyjet are considering buying a few 757`s,following after Jet 2.
This would surely make more sense,and just continually turn round on these longer routes.I work for an israeli company,and know the majority of flights to and from the UK,are usually full.These are generally on 767`s,so should`nt be a problem to fill a 757.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BDKLEZ
Posted 2006-06-28 10:00:24 and read 4939 times.

Quoting Cardiffairtaxi (Reply 24):
Maybe Easyjet are considering buying a few 757`s,following after Jet 2.

That's not going to happen, simple. If any capacity increse is deemed necessary, the company will opt for the A320/A321 as I said above in order to maintain crew and maintenance commonality.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Tommy777
Posted 2006-06-28 10:02:00 and read 4939 times.

It's no problem operating this route with an A319. SK is/was operating both BEY and CAI seasonally with a 738 out of ARN/CPH.

But if this route is to be profitable, they need to use a 321

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Raffik
Posted 2006-06-28 12:40:55 and read 4820 times.

Don't Astraeus operate their 737NGs to Egypt and Israel? Also to Africa and Canada.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Sevenair
Posted 2006-06-28 12:58:43 and read 4790 times.

How come EZY have three MTOWs for the 319? Is it because of the airway chargs, based on MTOW? For example the 319 may be physically capable of a 39,000KG takeoff, but having a MTOW certified of 34,000KG would mean lower airway charges. Or are there siginifant structural differences? I can't see any differences at all.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-28 13:05:27 and read 4771 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 27):
Don't Astraeus operate their 737NGs to Egypt and Israel? Also to Africa and Canada.

Like I mentioned earlier, there are different versions of the 737NG. Not all have the same (certified) trust and so there are difference in range/payload diagrams.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BDKLEZ
Posted 2006-06-28 13:14:28 and read 4755 times.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 28):
I can't see any differences at all.

You're quite correct, there aren't any physical differences at all and the sole purpose of the exercise is indeed, as you suggest, to reduce the Nav. charges. In fact these weight differentials are periocally changed and adjusted throughout the fleet between the three weight categories to maintain a relatively equal balance sheet of charges across the entire network.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-06-28 13:26:26 and read 4723 times.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):
LCCs tend to focus on shorter and usually more profitable flights which explains the fact that only a small minority of EZY flights are more than 3 hours.

Agreed, but passengers are now becoming used to LCCs and their tolerance of no frills can be stretched to longer flights provided the fares are right. Besides U2 have been operating successfully to ATH for many years, which is just under 4 hours flight duration.

Its not the passengers tolerance that is the issue here, rather than the number of segments an aircraft can fly in a day. The more segements flown tends to equal more revenue in the models of FR and U2 due to more passengers being carried.

ATH has always been as much a desire from Stelios than a commercial desire by easyJet, but with the LCC market in Europe (esp the UK) getting ever more saturated, perhaps they see the only real opportunities for growth are in markets slightly further (Turkey,Morocco, Israel) and so their model is going to have to alter as a result.

One plus point for U2 is that their bases at LTN and STN are to the north of London and so best placed to cater for London's Jewish population rather than LHR or their LGW base.

I can imagine GVA-TLV having a great deal of potential for them too.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: EZYAirbus
Posted 2006-06-28 14:13:40 and read 4640 times.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
Well that is good news but U2's website still says

Quote:
Sorry, but seats on this route are not currently available. Flights between London Luton and Istanbul will be back on sale as soon as possible subject to approval from the Turkish civil aviation authorities.

The website does indeed say that, but at work we had a memo saying the flight will operate at those new times, the first departing this friday.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):
Having in mind that Stelios is Cypriot

Wrong, he is Greek!

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-28 14:34:48 and read 4603 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 31):
One plus point for U2 is that their bases at LTN and STN are to the north of London and so best placed to cater for London's Jewish population rather than LHR or their LGW base.

It's actually all about a competitive advantage above other carriers. LTN and STN are also cheaper to operate from than LHR. And, the prices currently charged at a sector like LHR-TLV are quite high, a random search for lowest price in September on BA (LHR-TLV) gave me a GBP 275 (EUR 400) price. Seems to be a price that can be cut. There is no need for easy to offer GBP 15-flights on the route; if they can offer a roundtrip for GBP 175 they'll defenitely fill their planes and I assume they can make a profit on that.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-06-28 14:40:57 and read 4587 times.

Quoting Joost (Reply 33):
It's actually all about a competitive advantage above other carriers. LTN and STN are also cheaper to operate from than LHR. And, the prices currently charged at a sector like LHR-TLV are quite high, a random search for lowest price in September on BA (LHR-TLV) gave me a GBP 275 (EUR 400) price. Seems to be a price that can be cut. There is no need for easy to offer GBP 15-flights on the route; if they can offer a roundtrip for GBP 175 they'll defenitely fill their planes and I assume they can make a profit on that.

Oh agreed - but my point about LTN and STN is that it would be more logical to fly from there rather than their LGW base due to the local catchment. Despite their large operations at LGW now - it makes less sense.

And agreed - I don;t think we'll see the ultra cheap giveaway flights on the route if they do commence it (and there's no guarantee on that - they've been looking at Cyprus for years and still nothing) - as you say prices over 150 pounds will work just fine....

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Joost
Posted 2006-06-28 14:53:59 and read 4562 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 34):
as you say prices over 150 pounds will work just fine....

Their Morocco routes are also sold for similar prices by the way. A quick search for september quoted a 130 pound (incl tax) fare for LGW-RAK for wednesdays; Sunday-flights RAK-LGW are selling for GBP 175 ex tax already! Well, if people want to pay that - good for easyJet  Smile

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: A320ajm
Posted 2006-06-28 17:01:03 and read 3935 times.

Is this the first EZY flight outside the EU?

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-06-28 17:09:29 and read 3889 times.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 36):
Is this the first EZY flight outside the EU?

Nope - Switzerland, Croatia, Morocco, Turkey (soon)

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: CYatUK
Posted 2006-06-28 20:26:42 and read 3660 times.

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 32):
Wrong, he is Greek!

Greek citizenship yes, but his family is from the village of Pedoulas, Cyprus.

Himself and his family have donated and still donate quite a lot of money to the village and the surroundings. They also provide university scholarships to a selection of students every year and play significant role in Cypriot economy by having all the Stelmar Navigation ships registered in Limassol.

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BDKLEZ
Posted 2006-07-04 12:03:04 and read 3375 times.

Here's a brief article in an Isreali trade publication affirming the same from Mr Eli Cohen, of Israel's Turism Ministry.

http://www.port2port.com/Index.asp?CategoryID=44&ArticleID=957

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: BDKLEZ
Posted 2006-07-04 12:03:36 and read 3375 times.

Here's a brief article in an Israeli trade publication affirming the same from Mr Eli Cohen, of Israel's Tourism Ministry.

http://www.port2port.com/Index.asp?CategoryID=44&ArticleID=957

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-07-04 12:26:14 and read 3351 times.

Quoting HBDAN (Reply 5):
STN-TLV are 3568 km away. Flight time is about 4 hours. Which A/C would EZY fly on the route???

The 73G and the A319 have no issue with routes longer than this length in the US. The key is having the right MTOW

Quoting A342 (Reply 13):
too much for the U2 A319. And I doubt they'll receive the 75.5 ton MTOW-version in the future.

They wouldn't need the 75.5 ton A319ER, nor would they need the 737-700IGW.

Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
Is there any actual technical difference between the low-MTOW and the high-MTOW version, or is it just a matter of certification? In the latter case, it might be worth it recertifying a bunch of planes.

It is probably just a certification matter. I doubt there is actually extra tankage

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: RJ100
Posted 2006-07-04 13:19:58 and read 3295 times.

I would bet the Swiss bases are top on the list for services to Israel.

-GVA traditionally has lots of connections to Israel as well as

-BSL, where the zionism movement began (which ended in the founding of the State of Israel)

And of yourse all the places with large Jewish communities such as Paris, London etc.

I don't think distance is a problem. I believe it is even good for easyJet especially for GVA/BSL where you have a night curfew. So the earliest time to come back in the morning is 5:30 (in BSL) anyway...

Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2006-07-04 13:20:31]

Topic: RE: EasyJet To Israel In 2008
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-07-04 15:34:46 and read 3209 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 31):
The more segements flown tends to equal more revenue in the models of FR and U2 due to more passengers being carried.

But don't forget that flying more-and-more segments per day means more ATC costs, more maintenance, more staff, more fuel - it's not necessarily as low-cost as everyone assumes. Yes, those costs can, in theory, be spread among more customers, thereby, in theory, reducing the average per-seat cost. Moreover, you can secure more bulk-buying discounts by using X more, such as fuel, thereby helping to reduce the per-seat cost still further. But still: it's not always simple.

Anyway, for reasons of simplicity, if you dedicated 1 aircraft to LON-TLV, say, you could fly 2x daily rotations, like:

STN @ 2355
TLV @ 0640*
TLV @ 0705
STN @ 1025

STN @ 1050
TLV @ 1735
TLV @ 1800
STN @ 2120

Not bad, but you wouldn't be carrying many passengers per day. If, however, you could combine two segments flight with shorter flights, such as to Northern Ireland, Newcastle, Scotland and the Netherlands, you could probably get 6 or 8 segments per day. Still not that much, but much better.


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