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Topic: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Skaggs
Posted 2006-08-01 08:33:27 and read 18285 times.

All of my AA pilot friends in DFW are talking of a rumor that will supposedly affect "all AA first officers" that will be announced sometime in September. The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I find it hard to believe that AA would ever buy Airbus but the rumor is that Boeing is refusing to deal on 737NG's and Airbus is offering a much sweeter deal.

The MD80 series must be replaced, and soon, for AA to be profitable. I understand that AA belives that all MD80-88 airframes must be phased out within 10 years.

p.s. I wish AA would upgrade their First Class product on 757's.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-08-01 08:36:38 and read 18261 times.

Why does this forum have such an obsession with AA and A320's?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PM
Posted 2006-08-01 08:38:29 and read 18261 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

The way you have phrased this is a bit ambiguous. Who would be accepting all the blame - AA or Airbus?

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
I find it hard to believe that AA would ever buy Airbus

Wounds heal. Time passes. AA would be incredibly stupid to announce or otherwise indicate that they'd NEVER buy Airbus again. They'd be guaranteeing high prices from Boeing.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
the rumor is that Boeing is refusing to deal on 737NG's and Airbus is offering a much sweeter deal.

I could believe that.

Granted, an AA A320 deal has never looked likely but stranger things have happened. Who do we think would get the engine deal? AA are long-time RR customers but they are also cosy with GE...

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Alaska737
Posted 2006-08-01 08:42:09 and read 18220 times.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 1):
Why does this forum have such an obsession with AA and A320's?

and JetBlue and US financial turnaround and AS,WN,BA,and NW bashing...the list goes on and on

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-08-01 08:45:14 and read 18199 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The MD80 series must be replaced, and soon, for AA to be profitable.

I'm not so sure that this is true. DL is turning itself around with a very large fleet of MD80s that aren't going anywhere.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Skaggs
Posted 2006-08-01 08:46:04 and read 18199 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
The way you have phrased this is a bit ambiguous. Who would be accepting all the blame - AA or Airbus?

Well, the RUMOR I heard, was that AA would admit that it was a) pilot error or b) a crew training deficiency. Either way, it is BS, you should be able to stomp on a rudder at a relatively slow airspeed without it failing.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Cloudyapple
Posted 2006-08-01 08:49:14 and read 18177 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York

The cause was wake turbulence encounter with the first officer giving excessive rudder to compensate, resulting in the fin bearing excessive lateral load and separating. Rudder design and American Airlines' Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program were contributing factors.

I find it hard to believe Airbus would ever take the blame in light of the investigation, opening the floodgate for litigation.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: BlueFlyer
Posted 2006-08-01 08:55:17 and read 18131 times.

So what if AA actually accepts full responsability for the accident (nevermind how sweet the deal might be). What difference does it make in practice ?

It's not like Airbus would be able to wave a piece of paper with AA's admission of guilt to escape pending litigation or government action, is it ? Victim and government lawyers would still be able to go after Airbus if they wanted. They would have a harder time, true, but they could still make a case against Airbus (not saying they should here, just that they could).

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PanAm_DC10
Posted 2006-08-01 09:01:35 and read 18091 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
but the rumor is that Boeing is refusing to deal on 737NG's

Given AA have 47 x 738s and 7 x 772ERs which have been deferred I find it hard to believe that Boeing would be refusing to deal on 737NGs with AA

My  twocents 

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Gunsontheroof
Posted 2006-08-01 09:08:13 and read 18057 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on this right now. This isn't happening.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-01 09:12:54 and read 18019 times.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):

There you go, spoiling our fun by applying logic to the situation! wink 

It would indeed seem odd that Boeing wouldn't do a deal with AA (one of their bluest of blue-chip customers).

Either way, AA does have a very large fleet of MD-80s. Whatever they select to replace them when they do, they will need a lot of them! yes 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PM
Posted 2006-08-01 09:18:46 and read 17986 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
AA does have a very large fleet of MD-80s. Whatever they select to replace them when they do, they will need a lot of them!

So do we smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: DLKAPA
Posted 2006-08-01 09:29:44 and read 17943 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 5):
you should be able to stomp on a rudder at a relatively slow airspeed without it failing.

Not when you multiply that stomp by 5 in rapid succession.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2006-08-01 09:36:31 and read 17887 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
So do we smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s?

I smell male bovine fecal matter.

Personally I think if AA wants A320s, they should buy JetBlue and get a real hub operation at JFK.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: WINGS
Posted 2006-08-01 09:45:36 and read 17841 times.

I take this rumor as some what bizare. While I would love to see another major B737 operator converting to the A320 and possibly the A320E, I just don't think that is realist to think that Boeing will allow AA to slip from their hands.

So I suggest that we all wake up and smell the coffee. It's not going to happen.  Yeah sure

Regards,
Wings

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Chiad
Posted 2006-08-01 09:47:16 and read 17841 times.

I could imagine Airbus saying: "Here ... we have the A320E flying from 2009. As soon as the A320NG is available you can switch the remaining of the order to until those 300 MD80's are replaced!"

Those A320E pilots will surely be able to fly the A320NG with a few hour update practice.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: American777
Posted 2006-08-01 09:56:56 and read 17772 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
All of my AA pilot friends in DFW

Who cares what your friends talk about, I don't think AA will ever buy Airbuses! Your friends can talk about anything but Mr. Gerard Arpey will be the one deciding, not your friends.  Wink

AA signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing in the late 1990s, to be their main airplane provider. Now that AA is starting to make profits again and they'll probably start taking delivery of their deferred orders and even probably order more Boeings as they are expanding their international network. So just refresh your mind and know that AA won't order any Airbus planes anytime soon!

JOE.  Wink

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2006-08-01 09:58:40 and read 17757 times.

I would bet my 25 cents that this one will go no where.

I seem to recall that AA gets the lowest selling price for any planes they buy from Boeing (under the gentleman's agreement) so I don't see Airbus being that attractive.

While the MD-80s are getting a bit old I also don't see AA making a large order to replace them until they see how Y1 is developing. Throw in the need to look at the 787 to replace some 767s (and 757s) over the medium to long term. Then add AA's financial situation going forward over the next few years.

I think AA will take the planes they have to under existing orders with Boeing, minimize new purchases until their financial position improves even more, and then address what planes to buy.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FXramper
Posted 2006-08-01 10:01:05 and read 17734 times.

This is a huge pipedream hatched by Airbus cheerleaders.

The only a/c that AA will be flying before years end will be the 787.  bouncy 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-08-01 10:03:49 and read 17710 times.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 15):
Those A320E pilots will surely be able to fly the A320NG with a few hour update practice.

A few hours?? Heck, they'll probably just need to thumb through the manual. Maybe watch a video.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PM
Posted 2006-08-01 10:06:48 and read 17695 times.

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
AA signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing in the late 1990s

Which was almost as quickly cancelled - at least officially.

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
I don't think AA will ever buy Airbuses!

Not ever? Not in 2012? Not in 2018? Not in 2035? Wow. Old grudges die slowly...

Quoting FXramper (Reply 18):
The only a/c that AA will be flying before years end will be the 787.

AA will be flying 787s "before year's end"? Before even Boeing?! Wow!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: AAden
Posted 2006-08-01 10:11:45 and read 17675 times.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 1):
Why does this forum have such an obsession with AA and A320's?

entirely my fault

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 19):
Quoting Chiad (Reply 15):
Those A320E pilots will surely be able to fly the A320NG with a few hour update practice.

A few hours?? Heck, they'll probably just need to thumb through the manual. Maybe watch a video.

lol
once you've flown one you've flown them all

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: AJMIA
Posted 2006-08-01 15:28:07 and read 17230 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
in exchange for accepting all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I can't believe this could be part of any deal. Nobody wants to drag this up again. It would be 100% negative publicity and nothing good can come of it.

Rather I would imagine that IF such a deal were to take palace, AA and Airbus would agree sweep the issue of responsibility under the rug like a dirty family secret.

AJMIA

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Flying_727
Posted 2006-08-01 15:31:39 and read 17208 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for accepting all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

If this is true, wouldn't this be bribery?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-01 15:46:38 and read 17106 times.

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 23):
If this is true, wouldn't this be bribery?

No. Bribery would be Airbus paying someone in AA to influence a decision to buy A320s. AA accepting responsibility in return for a good price on A320s might be ethically dubious, but I doubt it's actually illegal.

While a fun discussion, this is nothing more than a totally unsubstantiated rumour from a source that is frequently wrong (flight crew that is, not Skaggs!)

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2006-08-01 16:13:35 and read 16921 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):


While a fun discussion, this is nothing more than a totally unsubstantiated rumour from a source that is frequently wrong (flight crew that is, not Skaggs!)

Exactly.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2006-08-01 16:33:02 and read 16819 times.

Here are my list of questions.

1. How much cheaper is the A320 versus the B737NG?

2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG

3. Airbus manufacturing process's are so efficient that even with a premium
product that the market demands they can still undercut Boeing?

4. How does Boeing survive much less turn a profit on its
non-competitive narrow body commercial line?

5. AA or Airbus accepts blame, then what, that party settles all the
outstanding civil litigation on the crash?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2006-08-01 16:36:08 and read 16793 times.

I would guss that if such an Airbus/AA deal would be hatched, Boeing would counter-offer. Even if Boeing is more expensive, AA would save millions by not having to add another fleet-type. This in of itself would make the Boeing deal more attractive even if the cost per unit is lower from Airbus.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: LTU932
Posted 2006-08-01 16:44:14 and read 16727 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
AA are long-time RR customers but they are also cosy with GE...

So they'd be undecided between CFM and IAE, if this A320 lease agreement does come into place? Personally I'd see them going for IAE, should this IMO very far fetched rumour actually became a fact.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
Given AA have 47 x 738s and 7 x 772ERs which have been deferred I find it hard to believe that Boeing would be refusing to deal on 737NGs with AA

 checkmark 

The question becomes: if AA deferred 47 737NGs and 7 772ERs, then why the hell would they now choose to lease the A320? Besides, the acquisition costs, even for used A320s, might be higher for them than for other airlines, if they choose to re-skin the aircraft to match their polished metal colourscheme.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2006-08-01 16:53:57 and read 16655 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
While the MD-80s are getting a bit old

Weren't some of the former-TW MD-80s that AA inherited manufactured in the late '90s?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2006-08-01 17:05:54 and read 16577 times.

Another point to me would be that Airbus would probably have to include mx training at no or a very cheap price. I doubt this would be a deal/settlement over the Nov. 2001 A-300 crash. Yes, the A-320 series is a fine a/c, with certain advantages over the 737/757 lines, but why muck up the fleet with another type of a/c? Most airlines are trying to simpifly their fleet types/models/brands.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-08-01 17:13:53 and read 16501 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
All of my AA pilot friends in DFW are talking of a rumor that will supposedly affect "all AA first officers" that will be announced sometime in September. The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I find it hard to believe that AA would ever buy Airbus but the rumor is that Boeing is refusing to deal on 737NG's and Airbus is offering a much sweeter deal.

The MD80 series must be replaced, and soon, for AA to be profitable. I understand that AA belives that all MD80-88 airframes must be phased out within 10 years.

p.s. I wish AA would upgrade their First Class product on 757's.



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
Given AA have 47 x 738s and 7 x 772ERs which have been deferred I find it hard to believe that Boeing would be refusing to deal on 737NGs with AA

Hi PanAm_DC10...you pipped me to the post.... Wink

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 9):
I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on this right now. This isn't happening.

one thing for sure..Gunsontheroof...your never at a loss for words.. rotfl 

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
So do we smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s?

PM, I think it would be just too expensive for AA...more than anything else, I think they will wait for the next generation single-isle planes.....

If Airbus builds a superiour single-isle plane than Boeing does, then I can say..sure, they'll buy Airbus, but if its even near parity, they will stick with Boeing...

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
AA signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing in the late 1990s, to be their main airplane provider. Now that AA is starting to make profits again and they'll probably start taking delivery of their deferred orders and even probably order more Boeings as they are expanding their international network. So just refresh your mind and know that AA won't order any Airbus planes anytime soon!

 checkmark 

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):

2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG

Have you seen the data? Please prove to me that the A320 is more "in demand"......the data the past few years does show a slight advantage of the A32X over the 737, but by your other comments, you make it sound as if the A320 is crushing the 737....which is not true..

For example...take a look at the sales of the 737 versus A32X this year....

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
4. How does Boeing survive much less turn a profit on its
non-competitive narrow body commercial line?

Does that comment even warrant a reply?  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2006-08-01 17:17:36 and read 16473 times.

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
AA signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing in the late 1990s, to be their main airplane provider.

Am I to assume there was no escape clause American could use if things went sour with Boeing?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: AC320tech
Posted 2006-08-01 17:24:14 and read 16397 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
AA are long-time RR customers but they are also cosy with GE...

I think it is the other way around because AA has a few airplanes in its fleet which use the RR variant of engines, and the rest are GE like on the 767, A300, and 737's. I do think they sit pretty with both companies.

it is all speculation, I wouldent be surprised if AA purchased a 737-700. Bringing in the A320 would make sense and then not make sense, whats AA going to do? Sell or scrap all these newer 738's and replace them with more A320's and 321's?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2006-08-01 17:24:54 and read 16397 times.

Aint going to happen with the 320's, certainly not on the terms set out by the thread starter!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-08-01 17:46:13 and read 16266 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):

2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG


Have you seen the data?

I think that this poster was being very wry. I think that he was basically saying, in multiple parts, "If the 737 is such a piece of crap, not in demand, and produced by folks who aren't as efficient manufacturers of aircraft as the dominant player Airbus, and they don't offer massive discounts on price, how is it that they sell any planes at all, much less profitably?" Or, in other words, "If it's such a piece of crap, and Boeing are such dorks, how do they even make money?"

Get it?

So it's probably better that you didn't "dignify it with a response".

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2006-08-01 17:53:05 and read 16226 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
All of my AA pilot friends in DFW are talking of a rumor that will supposedly affect "all AA first officers" that will be announced sometime in September. The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

1) Why would an A320 order apply to all AA first officers?

2) Why would Airbus even consider accepting blame for the AA587 incident? It would be no different that accepting responsibility for the Amriva A320 crash...

3) How could AA afford a new A320 fleet when they are currently deferring 737NG orders that were made under vary favorable terms?

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 32):
Am I to assume there was no escape clause American could use if things went sour with Boeing?

It doesn't matter. The EU demanded that all exclusive contracts should ruled void when the Boeing/MD merger took place, and Boeing abliged.

It should be noted that a "gentlemen's agreement" almost certainly still exist between AA and Boeing.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
4. How does Boeing survive much less turn a profit on its non-competitive narrow body commercial line?

How have you not been banned for making such ignorant comments?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-01 18:08:25 and read 16057 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):
2) Why would Airbus even consider accepting blame for the AA587 incident? It would be no different that accepting responsibility for the Amriva A320 crash...

You've got it the wrong way round! In reply #5 Skaggs says that it's AA that would take responsibility, not Airbus.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):
It should be noted that a "gentlemen's agreement" almost certainly still exist between AA and Boeing.

More than likely. However, it doesn't take much to break a "gentlemen's agreement". Given that the legal contract was voided as part of Boeing's acquisition of MD, there would presumably be no recourse for breaking said agreement.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-08-01 18:14:46 and read 15934 times.

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 33):
I think it is the other way around because AA has a few airplanes in its fleet which use the RR variant of engines, and the rest are GE like on the 767, A300, and 737's. I do think they sit pretty with both companies.

AA has is a huge operator of both the 777's and 757's..all of which have RR engines...

Love those 757's... cloudnine 


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 35):

I think that this poster was being very wry. I think that he was basically saying, in multiple parts, "If the 737 is such a piece of crap, not in demand, and produced by folks who aren't as efficient manufacturers of aircraft as the dominant player Airbus, and they don't offer massive discounts on price, how is it that they sell any planes at all, much less profitably?" Or, in other words, "If it's such a piece of crap, and Boeing are such dorks, how do they even make money?"

Get it?

So it's probably better that you didn't "dignify it with a response".

got ya'... thumbsup ....

I'm glad someone else saw it as I did....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):

How have you not been banned for making such ignorant comments?

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2006-08-01 18:20:05 and read 15815 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
More than likely. However, it doesn't take much to break a "gentlemen's agreement". Given that the legal contract was voided as part of Boeing's acquisition of MD, there would presumably be no recourse for breaking said agreement.

Probably not, but one can also presume that Boeing nonetheless extended the same financial conditions to AA for future block purchases so as to create a de facto exclusivity agreement which should keep AA in the Boeing camp at least until the 737RS and A320RS programs are fomally unveiled.

So I agree this rumor has as much substance as a house of cards on a sand pile in the Nile delta at flood peak during a magnitude 10 earthquake.  Smile

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: American777
Posted 2006-08-01 18:22:17 and read 15748 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Not ever? Not in 2012? Not in 2018? Not in 2035? Wow. Old grudges die slowly...

How funny!

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
So do I smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s for JL?

Yeah, I guess JL might be interested in those buses since they kept the old JD A300's! An no, Boeing will do their best to help AA replace their workhorses with the Y1 project, so I don't see any reason why AA would want to buy A320's. They wouldn't want to spend a lot of time and cash training their pilots to an all different type of plane!

JOE.

[Edited 2006-08-01 18:32:08]

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2006-08-01 18:40:38 and read 15388 times.

Believe it when you see it...RUMORS are just that, RUMORS. AA will have to spend millions to train, maintain, stock parts, etc, etc. In the middle of their cost-cutting spree how would they benefit from such a thing? They are simplifying everything...this rumor does not make sense at all...unless AIRBUS hands AA the airplanes "for -free".

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Contrails
Posted 2006-08-01 18:40:56 and read 15388 times.

If AA were to accept blame for the crash, which I find hard to believe at the moment, wouldn't that open them up to being liable for damages? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like an admission like that could have very serious consequences.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 18:45:31 and read 15268 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Wounds heal. Time passes. AA would be incredibly stupid to announce or otherwise indicate that they'd NEVER buy Airbus again. They'd be guaranteeing high prices from Boeing.

GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT!!!!!!!!!! THEY WON'T BUY THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOLD BOEING THAT THEY WON'T along with CO and DL. (I could explain it again but I do this every week)

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Not ever? Not in 2012? Not in 2018? Not in 2035? Wow. Old grudges die slowly...

Not a grudge anymore just an old agreement.

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Which was almost as quickly cancelled - at least officially.

It was only cancelled because the EU pissed about it. It's still very very much in play with the airlines who signed them.


AA will NOT fly A320s for the forseeable future. I know all you super-Airbus fans think that they will but until 201X they won't even consider them unless it'll get Boeing to lower prices. Stop making these threads, you sound like an idiot because we have discussed this to death.

Yes, AA does need to replace thier MD80s, they have NG737s on order, quite a few of them I believe. I'm sure if they need more they'll order them.

-Chans

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2006-08-01 18:48:19 and read 15198 times.

I think the more viable rumor would be that the 738's on order would no longer be deffered.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: EmSeeEye
Posted 2006-08-01 18:54:21 and read 15065 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I think this forum just sunk to a new low. This is absolutely a bunch of BS and it smells like a madeup rumor to get the rumor mill going.

If (and I very highly doubt it) but lets say if this is true... do you realize what will happen to Airbus or Boeing or any other A/C manufacturer if they ever "admit" to anything? It would be suicide. Every attorney that caught wind of this "admittance" would be all over Airbus like flies on a rib roast. Once they publicly admit to something like this it would be hard to recover from it.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2006-08-01 18:55:53 and read 15065 times.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
While I would love to see another major B737 operator converting to the A320 and possibly the A320E, I just don't think that is realist to think that Boeing will allow AA to slip from their hands.

Well, in this case it will be a MD80 operator converting to the A320. And an airline operating side by side 737NG and the 320 family, like the Chinese carriers do, and SAS, or THY...
With the notable exception that we are talikng in the 300+ frames. There is room for both with such numbers...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):
2) Why would Airbus even consider accepting blame for the AA587 incident? It would be no different that accepting responsibility for the Amriva A320 crash...

Because 300+ A320 are in the equation. After all, the A300 is getting towards its end (at least as a pax a/c), with potential future sales virtually equal to 0. So that will not tarnish so much their image. I mean, they might accept blame for an A300, but not for an A330 or A320.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 18:59:11 and read 15007 times.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 46):
And an airline operating side by side 737NG and the 320 family, like the Chinese carriers do, and SAS, or THY...

Way to pick some really profitable examples...

-Chans

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Varig md-11
Posted 2006-08-01 18:59:14 and read 15007 times.

a bit off topic but this doc. could cast light on some issues on the why and why nots of a possible deal with Airbus

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2001/AA587/presentations/06_operations.pdf

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: JAL
Posted 2006-08-01 19:01:34 and read 14940 times.

AA ordering A-320, not gonna happen!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2006-08-01 19:04:23 and read 14883 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 44):
I think the more viable rumor would be that the 738's on order would no longer be deffered.

I agree.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2006-08-01 19:06:42 and read 14792 times.

Quoting B6sea (Reply 47):
Way to pick some really profitable examples...

Sorry, I don't get your point...

At least, I provide more arguments that some statements such as the one below...

Quoting JAL (Reply 49):
AA ordering A-320, not gonna happen!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Kappel
Posted 2006-08-01 19:10:22 and read 14726 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

Hey dude, in Japan now? You sure travel around a bit. Tanzania, Switzerland, Japan...  bigthumbsup 

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Granted, an AA A320 deal has never looked likely but stranger things have happened. Who do we think would get the engine deal? AA are long-time RR customers but they are also cosy with GE...

Didn't AA say not so long ago they will be skipping the current generation of aircraft and will be waiting for the next gen 737 and a320?

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
I find it hard to believe Airbus would ever take the blame in light of the investigation, opening the floodgate for litigation.

A very important point IMHO. Accepting full blame will automatically mean that the one who accepts full blame is fully liable for damages for the next of kin. So that is very unlikely IMHO.

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
So do we smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s?

I would say why not? With such a huge fleet of md80's it would take at least ten years to replace them all. With a split order it could be reduced to 5. Besides, with two fleets of 150+ next gen aircraft, the cost of adding an aircraft type are negligable right?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2006-08-01 19:10:29 and read 14726 times.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 7):
It's not like Airbus would be able to wave a piece of paper with AA's admission of guilt to escape pending litigation or government action, is it ? Victim and government lawyers would still be able to go after Airbus if they wanted. They would have a harder time, true, but they could still make a case against Airbus (not saying they should here, just that they could).

It would be a big deal if the admission of liability also included a "hold harmless" agreement in which AA agrees to pay any damages Airbus must pay as a result of the accident, including all legal fees and costs. Thus, Airbus may be held liable by a court or agency, but AA would pick up the tab.

Such a hold harmless clause would only affect litigation surrounding the AA crash, it would be inconceivable that the admission would affect the independent review of any safety agencies -- the agencies have to find the
root cause regardless of who accepts liability.

Why AA would accept all that liability, I don't know -- sweet deal or no. Their reputation for safety would surely have a longer impact in the marketplace than would the deal Airbus is offering. Besides, I think AA could get a good price on planes in the manner that Qantas did -- hold a very public contest for a very large order of aircraft. Boeing would have to participate or face the wrath of its shareholders and cede all that free publicity to Airbus.

Just my little legal two cents worth!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-08-01 19:21:16 and read 14561 times.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 41):
unless AIRBUS hands AA the airplanes "for -free".

It is a well known fact that Airbus gives their planes away for free.. duck 

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 46):
With the notable exception that we are talikng in the 300+ frames.

However, not all 300 frames are going to be replaced.....of which many are deferred 737's and also, IIRC, the gentleman's agreement also includes AA getting one of the best prices in the industry...

As I previously stated, the only way I see AA getting an Airbus single-isle plane is if the economics handily beats its competing Boeing rival..and I don't see that right now... no 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-01 19:26:47 and read 14474 times.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 45):
If (and I very highly doubt it) but lets say if this is true... do you realize what will happen to Airbus or Boeing or any other A/C manufacturer if they ever "admit" to anything? It would be suicide. Every attorney that caught wind of this "admittance" would be all over Airbus like flies on a rib roast. Once they publicly admit to something like this it would be hard to recover from it.

Skaggs clarified in reply #5 that it's AA that would, allegedly, be taking "the blame" for the crash, not Airbus.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Kappel
Posted 2006-08-01 19:38:25 and read 14281 times.

Quoting B6sea (Reply 47):
Way to pick some really profitable examples...

Is Easyjet profitable enough? Or LH? Or AF? Those are also examples of profitable airlines operating the 737 and a320 side by side.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Alaska737
Posted 2006-08-01 19:57:11 and read 13950 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 54):
It is a well known fact that Airbus gives their planes away for free.. Smile

yeah i got three yesterday Big grin Big grin Big grin

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Coa747
Posted 2006-08-01 20:23:27 and read 13548 times.

American buying A320's is as likely as Southwest buying Airbus. Chances are slim to none. As far as the rudder issue it is a myth perpetuated by Airbus people that the tail will fail on all aircraft when a pilot stomps on the rudder pedals. My uncle has flown just about every Boeing model from the 727 to the 747-400F and has stomped on more than a few rudders without them failing. 737's in particular have experience hard overs like US Air 427 and the tail didn't fail. At that low an airspeed failure shouldn't be a result of standing on the rudder pedals. Airbus myth, that is all I have to say about that one.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2006-08-01 20:32:55 and read 13405 times.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
Here are my list of questions.

1. How much cheaper is the A320 versus the B737NG?

2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG

3. Airbus manufacturing process's are so efficient that even with a premium
product that the market demands they can still undercut Boeing?

4. How does Boeing survive much less turn a profit on its
non-competitive narrow body commercial line?

5. AA or Airbus accepts blame, then what, that party settles all the
outstanding civil litigation on the crash?

You're assuming it's a simple matter.

1. List prices are worthless. Rumour hath it that the 320 is a bit cheaper, but that's just the sticker price. You then have to factor in operational costs, training costs, maintenance costs, potential lease terms on airframes, engines, APUs, set-up costs.

2. What makes you think they're not? Besides, Boeing has a huge backlog of 737NGs. Why lower the price today if the next plane sold won't be delivered until 2009 or something. By then, you will presumably have been able to get a higher paying customer.

3. Like it or not, the 737NG is still a 737, and does not have FBW or other production cost saving features present in the 32x. Then again, we really don't know the structures of the deals.

4. The 737NG is plenty competitive. Just because it doesn't outsell the 32x in absolute terms doesn't mean it's failing commercially.

5. I would guess.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2006-08-01 20:37:32 and read 13301 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 5):
you should be able to stomp on a rudder at a relatively slow airspeed without it failing.

And you can! And it will not fail! They did it after the accident, it stayed put.
However, stomping it back and forth repeatedly is un-necessary unless you are "walking" an aircraft down through a stall, a manoeuvre not done in this class and category aircraft.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 9):
I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on this right now. This isn't happening.

I 2nd the call.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
Not when you multiply that stomp by 5 in rapid succession.

Correct!!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-08-01 20:45:16 and read 13226 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
I understand that AA belives that all MD80-88 airframes must be phased out within 10 years.

Do you know just how expensive that would be? 10 years at something like 330 airframes means 33 planes a year. That is $1.32 BILLION per year at $40 million per airplane (which is a very nice discount). I seriously doubt AA would be so stupid as to make such a committment, particularly given the real need for them to look for a medium sized widebody replacement for the A300 and 787.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 15):
Those A320E pilots will surely be able to fly the A320NG with a few hour update practice.

If the A320NG is going to be at all competitive with Y1, there is going to be a hell of a lot more than a few hours involved.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
1. How much cheaper is the A320 versus the B737NG?

It isn't in real terms

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG

Ludicrious

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Galapagapop
Posted 2006-08-01 20:56:54 and read 13072 times.

AA spent the latter of 2 years trying to eliminate fleet types.
F-100
717
762 (non ER's?) [Cannot remember fully on these]
Now the TWA 757's


Why on earth would they add a new fleet type that covers the exact same market as another subtype in AA's Fleet no less?

They are on the look out for possible 100 seaters, but A320's? Nope.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Coa747
Posted 2006-08-01 20:59:25 and read 13030 times.

The rudder control system should progressively limit rudder movement as speed increases and not allow the rudder to be deflected beyond a point that will cause structural weakness and failure. The system shouldn't be designed to allow itself to self destruct. That is like designing a microwave that will allow itself to meltdown. I have a friend who did just that he accidently set the timer for 2 hours instead of 2 minutes and the stupid thing just kept going until it went into full meltdown mode. Whoever engineered that thing wasn't to bright. As for my friend well we got him a new microwave with a timer dial on it so it wouldn't go past 10 minutes. I agree that pilot actions were a contributing factor the system shouldn't have allowed such agressive control actions.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-08-01 21:06:35 and read 12901 times.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 9):
I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on this right now. This isn't happening.

 checkmark 

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
So do we smell a split deal? More 737s plus A320s?

and I think I smell a snowstorm in hell.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
So I suggest that we all wake up and smell the coffee. It's not going to happen. Yeah sure

 checkmark 

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
Who cares what your friends talk about, I don't think AA will ever buy Airbuses! Your friends can talk about anything but Mr. Gerard Arpey will be the one deciding, not your friends.

 checkmark 

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
I would bet my 25 cents that this one will go no where.

 checkmark 

I seem to recall that AA gets the lowest selling price for any planes they buy from Boeing (under the gentleman's agreement) so I don't see Airbus being that attractive.

Yep, AA, DL, and CO all pay bottom dollar on any orders they have through Boeing as part of a gentleman's agreement (formerly a formal exclusivity agreement before the EU voided it at the time of the Boeing/McD merger) Would AA throw away guaranteed bottom dollar pricing? Doubtful.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 18):
This is a huge pipedream hatched by Airbus cheerleaders.

 checkmark 

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):

2. Since the market forces have deemed the A320 the more "in demand"
a/c, why is Boeing not offering discounts on the B373NG

Umm, doesn't the 737 have a longer backlog?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
3. Airbus manufacturing process's are so efficient that even with a premium
product that the market demands they can still undercut Boeing?

Who ever said their manufacturing was more efficient?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):

4. How does Boeing survive much less turn a profit on its
non-competitive narrow body commercial line?

Non competitive as in Boeing has sold more 737s than Airbus has sold aircraft? As in Boeing sold 1,500 737NG's in six year, the fastest any airplane company has ever sold any model of commercial jet ever? As in Boeing has a longer backlog on 737. Right. Boeing has sold 6,000 737s. But that's not a competitive narrowbody...

And profitable, Boeing is dominant in the widebody market - which makes them a good deal of money.

Quoting Contrails (Reply 42):
If AA were to accept blame for the crash, which I find hard to believe at the moment, wouldn't that open them up to being liable for damages? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like an admission like that could have very serious consequences.

 checkmark 

Quoting B6sea (Reply 43):
Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Wounds heal. Time passes. AA would be incredibly stupid to announce or otherwise indicate that they'd NEVER buy Airbus again. They'd be guaranteeing high prices from Boeing.

GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT!!!!!!!!!! THEY WON'T BUY THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOLD BOEING THAT THEY WON'T along with CO and DL. (I could explain it again but I do this every week)

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Not ever? Not in 2012? Not in 2018? Not in 2035? Wow. Old grudges die slowly...

Not a grudge anymore just an old agreement.

 checkmark 

They guarantee getting the best price by assuring Boeing they will get the order. Pretty nifty deal huh? Boeing assures they get the orders, the airline assures they get the best price, both win... novel idea huh... Leahy probably still scratches his head at this.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 44):
I think the more viable rumor would be that the 738's on order would no longer be deffered.

 checkmark 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 54):
It is a well known fact that Airbus gives their planes away for free..

Well, I mean we all know that's how they became the world's most profitable aircraft builder.... duh!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2006-08-01 21:22:21 and read 12696 times.

Guys regarding my post number 26, I take this "rumour" with a grain of salt.
My post was going both ways, the Airbus fans like to claim the A320 killed the B737, yet the B737 had its best year last year.

The width of the A320 is a hugh advantage, yet the width of the B777 is not, so whats with the XWB?

So lets take this "rumour" serious.

AA is doing better after a couple years of being close to filing Chpt.11.
Now as they are getting back on their feet, we are supposed to believe that management is seriously considering introducing another fleet type with all new spares, maintenance, pilot training, new simulator, pilot pay scales and other items. Unless, we are to believe that AA is moving its entire fleet to Airbus and this would be the mother of all financial transactions. AA expressed any problems with their B737 to warrant a change?

AA has outstanding orders with Boeing, are we to believe that with Airbus going through the ropes with the A380 and A350XWB, that Boeing will allow Airbus to grab another of their prime clients?

AA / Airbus admits to negligence? When has that ever happened, at least in the USA, lawyers would have a field day. Big tobacco lost in court, appealed and lost again, the rewards were lowered, has anyone collected anything? Unless congress has already passed a law ensuring that no claims would have to be paid if someone "fessed up" why would either side want to admit negligence?

If this is a serious "rumour" I will be very interested in understanding the financial thinking behind it. How about a conspiracy, Boeing agrees to not competing for the order if Airbus does the same with the Airforce tanker deal.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-01 21:22:21 and read 12696 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 64):
Who ever said their manufacturing was more efficient?



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 64):
Well, I mean we all know that's how they became the world's most profitable aircraft builder.... duh!

Over the last few years, there's been very little difference in numbers sold and delivered between Airbus and Boeing. So how do Airbus make more profit than Boeing if they aren't more efficient? confused 

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 64):
Umm, doesn't the 737 have a longer backlog?

No!

At end June, the figures were:
A32x = 1560
737 = 1365

Airbus also racked up quite a few A32x orders at Farnborough, so I think the gap may have grown a bit.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: AutoThrust
Posted 2006-08-01 21:24:10 and read 12652 times.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 18):
This is a huge pipedream hatched by Airbus cheerleaders.

The only a/c that AA will be flying before years end will be the 787.   American Airlines: A face in every window and an asshole in every seat!

You sound exactly like the opposite, as a Boeing Cheerleeder. Very informative post.  Yeah sure

I think most are right AA wont buy or lease any A320. It doesnt make sense wich such a 737 fleet. Even if it would be an very sweat deal. That doesnt mean even with a Gentelman Agreement they will not buy ever more an Airbus. That would be more then silly. Whatever AA is still mad about A300 crash i cant imagine a average intelligent Manager would not consider all products on the market.
They will replace the A300 with the 787 thats sure but maybe sometime they will replace the 737NG with the Y1 or A320NG(not A320E). Time will tell.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Columba
Posted 2006-08-01 21:24:56 and read 12652 times.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 56):
Is Easyjet profitable enough? Or LH? Or AF? Those are also examples of profitable airlines operating the 737 and a320 side by side.

At least all the three airlines at one time used to fly 737s and A320s side by side.
Air France will be the first to retire their 737s, Easyjet and Lufthansa also will standardize their narrowbody fleet. Although there is a slight chance that LH will replace their 737 classics with 737NGs but this -although it would be very cool - itis only a very slim chance.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 21:28:01 and read 12613 times.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 56):
Is Easyjet profitable enough? Or LH? Or AF? Those are also examples of profitable airlines operating the 737 and a320 side by side.

That was my point... SAS and THY aren't the best way to make a point for using two aircraft types efficiently. I wasn't saying it couldn't be done because some airlines make it work quite well by establishing specific roles for each aircraft type so that they operate independent of each other and don't become redundant aircraft types, which is just an extra, unnecessary cost (SAS is a very good example of how NOT to make this work)

HOWEVER, this won't be a problem for AA because like I've already said... NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

-Chans

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-08-01 21:35:55 and read 12517 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 66):

Over the last few years, there's been very little difference in numbers sold and delivered between Airbus and Boeing. So how do Airbus make more profit than Boeing if they aren't more efficient? confused

In the past few years Boeing has had to deal with a recession in the American economy and a drastic change in business strategy as well as restructuring. Boeing's profit margins are almost up to Airbus' level, and this year, they have a chance of equalling, if not exceding.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 66):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 64):
Umm, doesn't the 737 have a longer backlog?

No!

At end June, the figures were:
A32x = 1560
737 = 1365

I'm pretty sure I said longer, not larger. I was talking in terms of years. One thing Airbus has on Boeing is that they do have the capacity to produce more A320s per year than Boeing does 737s.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 67):
That doesnt mean even with a Gentelman Agreement they will not buy ever more an Airbus. That would be more then silly

Really, because violating it would mean Boeing would no longer be obligated to give them best price on everything they buy. Best price - no questions asked, on everything is a hell of a thing to give away.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-08-01 21:37:23 and read 12471 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 64):
Well, I mean we all know that's how they became the world's most profitable aircraft builder.... duh!

 rotfl .....of course, its so obvious... Smile

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 21:38:00 and read 12471 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 59):
You're assuming it's a simple matter.

1. List prices are worthless. Rumour hath it that the 320 is a bit cheaper, but that's just the sticker price. You then have to factor in operational costs, training costs, maintenance costs, potential lease terms on airframes, engines, APUs, set-up costs.

2. What makes you think they're not? Besides, Boeing has a huge backlog of 737NGs. Why lower the price today if the next plane sold won't be delivered until 2009 or something. By then, you will presumably have been able to get a higher paying customer.

3. Like it or not, the 737NG is still a 737, and does not have FBW or other production cost saving features present in the 32x. Then again, we really don't know the structures of the deals.

4. The 737NG is plenty competitive. Just because it doesn't outsell the 32x in absolute terms doesn't mean it's failing commercially.

5. I would guess.

Completely right... In addition, A320s are initially cheaper, making them attractive for start-ups and airlines in need of immediate savings. They do, however, have a tendency to rack up much worse maintenance costs once they pass the 5 year mark, whereas the 737's maintenance costs are fairly stagnant. At least that's what my father tells me. (He's a retired engineer, but he used to be on the 737NG program and various other programs at Boeing over his 35-year career and honestly that's one of the only semi-positive remarks that I've ever heard about the new Chicago-managed Boeing company. He's currently on contract at Boeing again on the 737-900ER program, but not actually working for the Boeing company.)

And no, the 737 is not failing commercially at all.
-Chans

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2006-08-01 21:41:29 and read 12421 times.

StarlionBlue Reply 59
"3. Like it or not, the 737NG is still a 737, and does not have FBW or other production cost saving features present in the 32x. Then again, we really don't know the structures of the deals."

AA needs to replace MD's and you are talking about an order for 300+ a/c and you are going to select the A320 when both Boeing and Airbus already have plans for new technologies in the narrow body products.

Boeing revamped their production process after the debacle in the early 90's, you still cling to the belief that Airbus is able to manufacture its A320 so much cheaper than Boeing?

Given that Airbus has a larger backlog than Boeing for its A320's, who is able to deliver a/c sooner to AA?

I would think that in terms of size the new E-Jets that B6 uses would work better as a MD replacement, B6 has actually flown them here to NAS, saw two last week heading to JFK and BOS.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 21:43:26 and read 12369 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 70):
Really, because violating it would mean Boeing would no longer be obligated to give them best price on everything they buy. Best price - no questions asked, on everything is a hell of a thing to give away.

THANK YOU!!!! You explained that better than anyone, I think. Basically, though, AA would be idiotic to buy Airbus because of the relationship lost with Boeing but also the initial costs of training, maintenance bases...etc that would go along with introducing a redundant, yet completely different aircraft type.

-Chans

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Columba
Posted 2006-08-01 21:53:06 and read 12212 times.

Quoting B6sea (Reply 72):
hey do, however, have a tendency to rack up much worse maintenance costs once they pass the 5 year mark, whereas the 737's maintenance costs are fairly stagnant. At least that's what my father tells me. (He's a retired engineer, but he used to be on the 737NG program and various other programs at Boeing over his 35-year

Nothing against your father but since he was/is working for Boeing I don´t think he has an objective view. I really doubt that the A320 will get worse maintenance cost once they pass the 5 years mark. AF, BA, LH, NW and other big airlines have A320s that are more than 15 years old and they are doing fine.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Bongo
Posted 2006-08-01 21:53:14 and read 12212 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

Is that the way it works these kind of deals? "Accept all responsability and I will give you a xx % discount" ??

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: B6sea
Posted 2006-08-01 22:02:32 and read 12095 times.

Quoting Columba (Reply 75):
Nothing against your father but since he was/is working for Boeing I don´t think he has an objective view. I really doubt that the A320 will get worse maintenance cost once they pass the 5 years mark. AF, BA, LH, NW and other big airlines have A320s that are more than 15 years old and they are doing fine.

I do think he's objective because, to be honest, He's a freaking engineer on the freaking program in question and that would definitley be info. he would know... Plus, as I said, he's no Boeing fan and would find any opportunity to bash them and I've heard this from other people as well, not just him... Those airlines are large enough that those losses could be masked by long-haul opperations and the maintenance costs most-likely don't overshadow profitability in a large fleet. They are mereley an inconvenience to be dealt with by the airlines. NW is NOT doing fine, by the way (I doubt its the A320s, but the fact remains)...

EDIT SECTION: I believe that the reason the costs are higher is that the advanced computer systems and technology aspects unique to the A320 make the maintenance more costly and complicated and needs to be updated more frequently...

-Chans

[Edited 2006-08-01 22:05:03]

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Keesje
Posted 2006-08-01 22:15:37 and read 11890 times.

Does AA want to become the last airline that takes large numbers of 737NG´s?

Quoting American777 (Reply 16):
Who cares what your friends talk about, I don't think AA will ever buy Airbuses! Your friends can talk about anything but Mr. Gerard Arpey will be the one deciding, not your friends.

Yes, Arpey said a few weeks ago he does not rule out buying planes from Airbus.

"When we get to that point, when profitability allows us to be thinking about new airplanes as either replacements or for growth, we clearly will look at all the options out there and decide what's best for our company," he said
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...847_americanair06.html?source=mypi

Airbus will likely launch a much improved A320 Enhanced soon. GE is mulling an improved CFM56 with a bigger carbon fan. The result would be something better then the 737NG in every way (except price?) . The NeverEver / ColdDayInHell brigade here has been running into walls lately.

Be sure AA will make a sound business decision, forget the patriotic stuff.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2006-08-01 22:22:42 and read 11804 times.

coa747

What the pilot did was 5 rudder reversals one after another.

If this is what your father does, then perhaps you can tell us who he flies for.

I for one will fly with someone else.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2006-08-01 22:30:46 and read 11664 times.

Quoting B6sea (Reply 77):
EDIT SECTION: I believe that the reason the costs are higher is that the advanced computer systems and technology aspects unique to the A320 make the maintenance more costly and complicated and needs to be updated more frequently...

I'd have thought maintaining software would be a lot cheaper than maintaining hardware.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-08-01 22:42:04 and read 11483 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 78):

Be sure AA will make a sound business decision, forget the patriotic stuff.

It's not patriotism, it's a deal that can't be beat, buy exclusively from manufacturer X, get best price every time, no negotiation, and preference in delivery slots. An airline could just as easily make the same deal with airbus, assuming both parties are willing. So long as the airplanes from each manufacturer are competetive, it's a great deal for AA. Of course, they won't rule anything out, they'll look at their options, but at the end of the day, best price is best price, and it's more than just one purchase, it's a relationship.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2006-08-01 22:44:05 and read 11483 times.

RJ111 reply 80
"I'd have thought maintaining software would be a lot cheaper than maintaining hardware."

Welcome to the computer age. The software updates in most cases are relatively easy to install, the cost involves all the programmers and engineers who have to test and debug the software prior to release and installation.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-08-01 22:45:26 and read 11439 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 81):
An airline could just as easily make the same deal with airbus, assuming both parties are willing.

Frontier sometimes refers to their exclusive deal with Airbus.

They have not - to my knowledge - defined what it means.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: MarkATL
Posted 2006-08-01 23:12:07 and read 11111 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Lhrmaccoll
Posted 2006-08-01 23:15:49 and read 11068 times.

AA and an Airbus purchase?
That will be the day.
They still have a bunch of 737NGs on order. I cannot see this happening.
If it does, I will eat my hat and post the pictures.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: KSUpilot
Posted 2006-08-01 23:18:33 and read 11030 times.

I personally don't see American making such a large move yet. It is clear that both Boeing and Airbus will be looking at replacements for the 737 and 320. Boeing might even launch such a program in 2008. Why spend all this money now on an A320 now when if you continue to fly the MD-80 for 10 more years, you get a new, more efficient aircraft. Looking short term, a new aircraft deal may make sense, the MD-80s are gas guzzelers. But in the long run American will regret it when both Boeing and Airbus come out with new aircraft.

It just doesn't make sense for them to replace the MD-80 right now, regardless whether its the 737 or A320. And I do not see them admitting they were at fault in the accident. That will send the entire company downward. They will have to pay damages, and it will be a black eye for them. If this is a true offer from Airbus, it also makes Airbus look bad as well, "Hey, take this offer and we'll forget about that little incident a few years ago..."

I don't think saying American will never fly Airbus is right. It all depends who wins the battle over the barrowbody replacements. If the A320 replacement is better than the 737-RS, then Airbus will get the deal. The same goes for Boeing.

I think this is BS and I see American updating the MD-80 engines to something more efficient way before they replace them with the A320 or 737. The Mad Dogs are here until the replacements come out.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Agill
Posted 2006-08-01 23:25:36 and read 10956 times.

So how much money does the difference in fuel consumption translate to on a year. If you compare a MD-80 to a B737 or A320. For an average usage for AA.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-08-01 23:26:09 and read 10956 times.

Alright, the notion AA would both accept fault, and then get over their grudge over the incident - and exlusivity agreeement with Boeing is just nuts. It looks like nothing but bad deals for AA.

The 737s are going to slowly replace the MD-80s. I don't think the MD-80s will get new engines, or any other expensive investments. Over the next 10 years, AA will continue to replace the MD's with 737s. It won't happen quickly - that's for sure, and as the 120 orders with Boeing demonstrate, it won't happen with Airbus.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-08-01 23:55:21 and read 10648 times.



Let's move on to realistic discussions, seriously....

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2006-08-02 00:02:14 and read 10568 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The rumor is that, Airbus is offering AA a Jet Blue type deal on A320's in exchange for acceping all blame for the A300 crash in New York.

I reiterate above sentiment that it is utter and complete bullshit.

Such an "exchange" offers no tangible benefit to Airbus. This is business, not the after-school playground.

N

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-08-02 00:12:43 and read 10450 times.

Maybe Southwest will lease L1011's next.

[Edited 2006-08-02 00:14:08]

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Coa747
Posted 2006-08-02 00:42:56 and read 10145 times.

Airbus has designed the control system on its aircraft including the A300 and A310 so that the computer will not allow the aircraft to stall. You can pitch the nose up as much as you want but it won't let you stall it. But you can make whatever lateral control inputs you want through the rudder system and snap the tail off. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the control logic is designed to avoid putting the aircraft into a position where it structural integrity is violated or it exceeds the performance envelope than why would it allow such agressive inputs with the rudder. I think the real issue for American was the structural soundness of the tail. I have seen pictures of the fracture point and you can clearly see the line of separation occured directly in line with the titanium doublers that were put in place to correct a manufacturing flaw in the vertical stabalizer. Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it. Result it couldn't endure the stresses imposed on it during that sequence of events. If the entire tail assembly had been replaced I have serious doubts that it would have failed.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2006-08-02 01:10:31 and read 9892 times.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
Airbus has designed the control system on its aircraft including the A300 and A310 so that the computer will not allow the aircraft to stall.

What? The A300 and A310 don't feature that sophisticated of a flight control computer. These two planes are not fly-by-wire, there is no envelope control.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it.

Completely impossible. There is no way they would release a plane with such a "manufacturing flaw", since said repair is surely not part of the certification.

How are you aware of said "titanium doublers" in this particular airframe, if they're not present in all of them?

N

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: DTWAGENT
Posted 2006-08-02 01:10:56 and read 9892 times.

Either way they are going to do something with the MD's. Who gives a rats butt on who they are going to purchase their next aircraft from. Give it up people. This Airbus vs Boeing stuff is getting real old......


chuck

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Captaink
Posted 2006-08-02 01:11:50 and read 9892 times.

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 85):
AA and an Airbus purchase?
That will be the day.
They still have a bunch of 737NGs on order. I cannot see this happening.
If it does, I will eat my hat and post the pictures.

Some make it seem as though AA will not purchhase an airbus product simply because they are holding a grudge. That is your mentality, then i beg to differ.

AA is a company that is looking to maximise its profits. Simple as that. They recently have bettered their financial situation and I am sure they want to continue doing well. Buy airbus aircraft now seems silly from where stand, esp if they are thinking of profits. Training would be expensive on all sides of the coin, I am not sure what's going to happen with the livery.

Personally I think it may not make sense for them to replace the MD's with Airbus, but I am not sitting on the big seat. They are replacing a rather large fleet of MD80 series of aircraft, so whichever aircraft they choose really would be worth the while. I mean currently, what parts do the 737s and MDs share?

NOthing is impossible!!!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-08-02 01:26:49 and read 9749 times.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 95):
Some make it seem as though AA will not purchhase an airbus product simply because they are holding a grudge.

It may seem childish, but that's exactly why US Airways only talks to Airbus now.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: LMP737
Posted 2006-08-02 01:29:18 and read 9715 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The MD80 series must be replaced, and soon, for AA to be profitable. I understand that AA belives that all MD80-88 airframes must be phased out within 10 years.

Well the MD-80 did not prevent AA from turning a profit in the second quarter. People forget that the MD-80's are either paid for of have lease rates that are lower than on a 737NG or A320.

Phasing out all of it's MD-80's in the next ten years would be a tall order. If they were to replace them one for one they would have to start taking delivery of around thirty aircraft a year imeadiatley. This would be a bit difficult for either Airbus or Boeing to do.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 78):
Does AA want to become the last airline that takes large numbers of 737NG´s?

Or be the last airline to takes large numbers of A320's. AA IMO would be better served by waiting for the next generation of narrowbody aircraft. Then they could be a launch customer and have leg up on the competition.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jetpilot21
Posted 2006-08-02 01:38:38 and read 9645 times.

Sounds just like a rumor. One that never comes to past!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Captaink
Posted 2006-08-02 01:56:51 and read 9490 times.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 96):
It may seem childish, but that's exactly why US Airways only talks to Airbus now.

I guess I have to accept that then. But I am sure if a suitably competitive offer comes along from Boeing, US won't say they are sticking with Airbus come rain sun or snow.

I sincerely hope that the author of this post (no hard feelings author) is not just saying crazy things to get a.netters going, cause it sure is working. And the same thing happens with VS post about their 2 engine plans against their 4 engine motto etc etc etc.

Maybe we should just wait and see what the airlines actually announce.

But then again, it is fun talking about possibilities and why certain possibilities aren't possible.. Big grin

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: 474218
Posted 2006-08-02 03:46:54 and read 8732 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 27):
I would guss that if such an Airbus/AA deal would be hatched, Boeing would counter-offer.

Boeing would accept blame for the New York crash?

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it. Result it couldn't endure the stresses imposed on it during that sequence of events. If the entire tail assembly had been replaced I have serious doubts that it would have failed.

Replacing the vertical stabilizer is not in the structural repair manual. Repairing the vertical stabilizer is. Major structural components like vertical stabilizers are not replaced.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: NWDC10
Posted 2006-08-02 04:32:41 and read 8433 times.

How many times have you eaten your words. Anything is possible. I never and i mean never thought WN would serve DEN. AA can very well buy/lease A320's. Always "Expect The Unexpected". Robert NWDC10

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Zeke
Posted 2006-08-02 04:43:12 and read 8320 times.

Maybe this should be posted in http://www.aavirtual.com/forums/foru...102f082e2339141c07df6ad&forumid=30

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Mason747
Posted 2006-08-02 05:21:40 and read 8052 times.

AA has such a strong relationship with Boeing. To even think that AA would order the A320 is crazy. They should order more 737NGs if they want to replace the MD-80s or order a low range 787 since they plan to phase all the MD-80s in 10 years.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2006-08-02 06:00:02 and read 7852 times.

A friend of mine who flies for AA has heard this rumor. Mind you, it's just a rumor, but it seems to be the rumor that is never put to rest.

Eventually, AA is going to take the 47 deferred 737-800s. Apparently, the delivery dates can be moved up, if AA wants them earlier, although Boeing needs enough notice to fit the planes into the production schedule.

These 737s would replace the oldest 40 to 60 MD-80s. The oldest Mad Dogs were delivered in 83 through 85, so the have over 20 years of flying, and they flew a lot of shorter segments, since AA had more widebodies in the 80s flying either longer or higher-volume-domestic routes.

As for the rest of the MD-80 fleet, depending on profitability and Boeing's plans, AA is inclined to wait and see what Boeing's 737 replacement looks like, and when it would go into service.

My understanding is that AA and Boeing still have a contract signed in the late 90s to "replace" the current fleet over 20 years. That contract still has more than 10 years, and something like 400 production slots left.

Now, AA had agreed to Boeing being its sole supplier of mainline aircraft, but the E.U. forced Boeing to remove that clause, in order to approve the McD merger.

Anything is possible, but I just don't see AA jumping over to Airbus for A320s. Adding another fleet type goes against what AA has done over the last 5 years in terms of fleet simplification. With the problems with the A350, Airbus is going to be behind Boeing in terms of getting a new narrowbody line designed and flying. AA is still mad at Airbus over the A300 crash. And, from what my friend tells me, there are a number of AA pilots who feel that Boeing builds better planes.

Obviously, management isn't going to base its aircraft purchases solely on the preferences of its pilots, but it would be stupid to completely ignore them, too.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Singel09
Posted 2006-08-02 06:49:59 and read 7626 times.

any AA management member on A.net?

Speculation, rumours .... facts is what we need ..

Mause

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2006-08-02 09:41:42 and read 6997 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 81):
It's not patriotism, it's a deal that can't be beat, buy exclusively from manufacturer X, get best price every time, no negotiation, and preference in delivery slots. An airline could just as easily make the same deal with airbus, assuming both parties are willing. So long as the airplanes from each manufacturer are competetive, it's a great deal for AA. Of course, they won't rule anything out, they'll look at their options, but at the end of the day, best price is best price, and it's more than just one purchase, it's a relationship.

And you guarantee that Boeing will honor that deal under its new management ? Even when the deal entails loosing money on every plane sold ?

You guys are dreaming.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
I think the real issue for American was the structural soundness of the tail. I have seen pictures of the fracture point and you can clearly see the line of separation occured directly in line with the titanium doublers that were put in place to correct a manufacturing flaw in the vertical stabalizer. Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it. Result it couldn't endure the stresses imposed on it during that sequence of events. If the entire tail assembly had been replaced I have serious doubts that it would have failed.

Tell me why the NTSB missed that flaw ?

The Stress was 130% !!

And the pilot got it to 130% not the plane or any mysterious flaw.

One thing Airbus did do after this accident is, it redesigned the vertical stabilizer for the A380.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PM
Posted 2006-08-02 10:06:14 and read 6949 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):
It should be noted that a "gentlemen's agreement" almost certainly still exist between AA and Boeing.

As Sam Goldwyn used to say, "A gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on..."

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2006-08-02 10:53:29 and read 6877 times.

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 23):
If this is true, wouldn't this be bribery?

No. Bribery would be doing something like offering a carrier $250MM in exit financing in exchange for being the first U.S. carrier to order your newest plane.  duck 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-08-02 11:05:35 and read 6857 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 108):
Bribery would be doing something like offering a carrier $250MM in exit financing in exchange for being the first U.S. carrier to order your newest plane.

It wasn't exit financing.

 wave 

mariner

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2006-08-02 11:16:42 and read 6831 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 109):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 108):
Bribery would be doing something like offering a carrier $250MM in exit financing in exchange for being the first U.S. carrier to order your newest plane.

It wasn't exit financing.

Details...  Wink

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Nudelhirsch
Posted 2006-08-02 11:41:31 and read 6787 times.

Whatever.

If AA gets an offer for an array of 320s, maybe even some $$$ to spend at a bar, dig in.

AA would be stupid to refuse a good offer only because it's Airbus.

If they refuse, I am glad I won't have to fly that airine any longer... Sticking to the guys with brains...

Swallow your pride, order European, it is really not bad.

Or order the 737NG, but just keep the European and Airbus thing out. We're grown ups here. Mostly. We don't need that BS...

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-08-02 11:47:57 and read 6766 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 110):
Details...  

You mean - like Boeing and Airtran?

 wave 

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Keesje
Posted 2006-08-02 11:49:46 and read 6762 times.

I think American Airlines has the right to have their fare share of excellent Aircraft, like every succesfull airline these days.

The AA boss says he is talking to Airbus. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...847_americanair06.html?source=mypi

Perhaps Leahy will offer him the most efficient & comfortable narowbody (A319/320 Enhanced).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © French Frogs AirSlides





I´m sure AA will take the right decision securing its future & maximizing shareholder value.

We all want them to have the best equipment, what´s all the hassle?


 Wink


All jokes aside: I think nobody here knows, I suspect nobody at AA knows yet..

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2006-08-02 14:24:46 and read 6624 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 107):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 36):
It should be noted that a "gentlemen's agreement" almost certainly still exist between AA and Boeing.

As Sam Goldwyn used to say, "A gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on..."

The 747 was launched on a gentleman's agreement. If Boeing built it, Pan Am would buy it. And vice versa.

But I see your point.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Dartland
Posted 2006-08-02 14:44:27 and read 6584 times.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 104):
Eventually, AA is going to take the 47 deferred 737-800s. Apparently, the delivery dates can be moved up, if AA wants them earlier, although Boeing needs enough notice to fit the planes into the production schedule.

These 737s would replace the oldest 40 to 60 MD-80s. The oldest Mad Dogs were delivered in 83 through 85, so the have over 20 years of flying, and they flew a lot of shorter segments, since AA had more widebodies in the 80s flying either longer or higher-volume-domestic routes.

As for the rest of the MD-80 fleet, depending on profitability and Boeing's plans, AA is inclined to wait and see what Boeing's 737 replacement looks like, and when it would go into service.

The only truth I've read so far in this whole thread.

Thanks, CKfred.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Lhrmaccoll
Posted 2006-08-02 14:51:16 and read 6555 times.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 95):

No, you are assuming things.
That is not my mentality at all.
It just seems that, if indeed they are aiming for maximising profits, they would stick with 737NGs as a mainstay and minimize fleet variation.
2+2 mate.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-08-02 14:53:00 and read 6555 times.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
Coa747 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted Wed Aug 2 2006 00:42:56 UTC+2 and read 3561 times:


Airbus has designed the control system on its aircraft including the A300 and A310 so that the computer will not allow the aircraft to stall. You can pitch the nose up as much as you want but it won't let you stall it. But you can make whatever lateral control inputs you want through the rudder system and snap the tail off. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the control logic is designed to avoid putting the aircraft into a position where it structural integrity is violated or it exceeds the performance envelope than why would it allow such agressive inputs with the rudder. I think the real issue for American was the structural soundness of the tail. I have seen pictures of the fracture point and you can clearly see the line of separation occured directly in line with the titanium doublers that were put in place to correct a manufacturing flaw in the vertical stabalizer. Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it. Result it couldn't endure the stresses imposed on it during that sequence of events. If the entire tail assembly had been replaced I have serious doubts that it would have failed

Our resident AA587 expert re-hashing the same old conclusions.

Why cant you accept what everyone else has? - that the rudder inputs in that level of WT from the JL744 ahead would have snapped the rudder off a 767 just the same as the A300 REGARDLESS of the history of the componant - Airbus was at fault because it didnt make this absolutely clear to everyone, AA was at fault because the Pilot exerted too much rudder when training should have prevented this.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-08-02 15:46:29 and read 6484 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 113):
I´m sure AA will take the right decision securing its future & maximizing shareholder value.

They made their decision between 737NG and A320 when they bought 737NG. Why would they want to spend the money to have two similar fleets in the same segment? Additional expenses in infrastructure doesn't sound like a good way to maximize shareholder value.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Usair320
Posted 2006-08-02 23:03:18 and read 6270 times.

Quoting Skaggs (Thread starter):
The MD80 series must be replaced, and soon, for AA to be profitable. I understand that AA belives that all MD80-88 airframes must be phased out within 10 years.

Not quite as some of these birds are less than 10 years old and arent even payed off yet.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2006-08-03 06:19:04 and read 6080 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 107):
As Sam Goldwyn used to say, "A gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on..."

I think the actual quote is, "An oral agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on," or so my contracts professor in law school used to say.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 118):
They made their decision between 737NG and A320 when they bought 737NG. Why would they want to spend the money to have two similar fleets in the same segment? Additional expenses in infrastructure doesn't sound like a good way to maximize shareholder value.

My friend who flies for AA told me that when AA was looking at airplanes in the
late 90s, it had a number of senior pilots test fly the A319/A320 vs. the 737-700/-800 and the A330/A340 vs. the 777-200.

Apparently, the overwhelming majority preferred the Boeings.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2006-08-03 07:56:30 and read 6000 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
More than likely. However, it doesn't take much to break a "gentlemen's agreement". Given that the legal contract was voided as part of Boeing's acquisition of MD, there would presumably be no recourse for breaking said agreement.

Some contracts state that if any clause is found to be illegal it is removed and the remainder of the contract stands. Who knows what is left of the agreement.

In terms of AA's access to the best price I think it is important to remember that would be for all Boeing planes - not just the 737s. Why throw away those cost benefits that will be coming later for the 787, Y1 and Y3?

As to the 47 outstanding 737 orders, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA drag out deliveries until Y1 is announced and throwing the orders onto Y1, with additional planes to bring the order up to 100 - and getting a very good launch offer to boot.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Tom_EDDF
Posted 2006-08-03 08:07:07 and read 5983 times.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 120):
My friend who flies for AA told me that when AA was looking at airplanes in the
late 90s, it had a number of senior pilots test fly the A319/A320 vs. the 737-700/-800 and the A330/A340 vs. the 777-200.

Apparently, the overwhelming majority preferred the Boeings.

Which would not have surprised me, as they are used to and familiar with Boeings cockpit philosophy, from which Airbus' differs quite significantly, with the side sticks being just one of the more obvious differences.

Apart from that, pilots preference nowadays most likely plays a minor, if any, role in the decision making process. In the end, the plane gets ordered that delivers the best performance for a given mission profile and route network at lowest possible total cost of ownership. Whether senior pilots have objections about a dark cockpit concept, prefer sidesticks over yokes or feel comfortable with or without flight envelope protection, thrust levers not moving during flight etc. probably doesn't matter...

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2006-08-03 09:08:49 and read 5938 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):
Some contracts state that if any clause is found to be illegal it is removed and the remainder of the contract stands. Who knows what is left of the agreement.

The exclusivity contracts that Boeing signed with AA, DL & CO were made null and void as part of the EU's agreement that Boeing could take over MD. The contracts were torn up.

I'm not disputing that a "gentlemen's agreement" is most likely still in place (not that there's any proof and none of the parties would admit it), but there is no longer a legally binding contract in place. With no contract, either party can easily break the "gentlemen's agreement" with no recourse by the other party.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Trex8
Posted 2006-08-03 09:35:56 and read 5914 times.

even if there is a valid contract still in place, it can't be indefinite and there has to be an out clause in it

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2006-08-03 10:15:51 and read 5880 times.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 111):
If they refuse, I am glad I won't have to fly that airine any longer... Sticking to the guys with brains...

Swallow your pride, order European, it is really not bad.

I see. So you only have brains if you order from Airbus?

Someone had better tell Southwest Airlines and Alaska Airlines, among others...apparently they don't know they're dumb.  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: AC320tech
Posted 2006-08-03 16:59:37 and read 5701 times.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 92):
Airbus has designed the control system on its aircraft including the A300 and A310 so that the computer will not allow the aircraft to stall. You can pitch the nose up as much as you want but it won't let you stall it. But you can make whatever lateral control inputs you want through the rudder system and snap the tail off. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the control logic is designed to avoid putting the aircraft into a position where it structural integrity is violated or it exceeds the performance envelope than why would it allow such agressive inputs with the rudder. I think the real issue for American was the structural soundness of the tail. I have seen pictures of the fracture point and you can clearly see the line of separation occured directly in line with the titanium doublers that were put in place to correct a manufacturing flaw in the vertical stabalizer. Instead of replacing the vertical stabilizer Airbus chose to fix it. Result it couldn't endure the stresses imposed on it during that sequence of events. If the entire tail assembly had been replaced I have serious doubts that it would have failed.

Actually you are incorrect.

A300 and A310 do no have DFCS (Digital Flight Control Systems), they are not Digital Fly-By-Wire, they are analogue, they simply simulate the feel, and replace cable linkages with electronically controlled servos.

You are thinking of the (What I like to call) the Third Generation of Airbus airliners (A320 family, A330 and A340 family, A380). The 5 flight computers on this aircraft keep it within the flight envelope, the need these computer because of the FBW system.

The Airbus A300 and A310 do not have any system on board like the third generations, they are just another airplane like the 767 or 757.

You Cannot on the A320, A330, A340, and A380 family of aircraft


  • Exceed 2.5g's
  • 30 degrees of ANU (Airplane Nose Up) Pitch
  • 15 degrees of AND (Airplane Nose Down) Pitch
  • Stall
  • Overspeed
  • Overstress
  • Roll past 67 degrees of roll bank


Simply an A340 will not let you do what happened here. But like I said, there are no systems on the A300 and A310 which do what is listed above.

I could get into the grave details of the DFCS, but thats different. The only system that the A300 and A310 have that makes them special is real-time windshear protection. They DO NOT have any system on board that limits or protects the normal flight envelope.

I always felt in this accident you cannot point fingers at anyone person or group. There have been problems with the rudder of the A300 and A310 for years, we just havent heard of it. Fed Ex has had issues with there A300-600's and rudder deflection. If this is an isolated case like you suggest, then what happened to TS961?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Dartland
Posted 2006-08-03 17:04:53 and read 5691 times.

Quoting Tom_EDDF (Reply 122):
Apart from that, pilots preference nowadays most likely plays a minor, if any, role in the decision making process. In the end, the plane gets ordered that delivers the best performance for a given mission profile and route network at lowest possible total cost of ownership. Whether senior pilots have objections about a dark cockpit concept, prefer sidesticks over yokes or feel comfortable with or without flight envelope protection, thrust levers not moving during flight etc. probably doesn't matter...

Depends on the situation. If an order is coming as part of a pilot labor deal (whether implicitly or explicitly)...you better believe what planes they order is going to be part of that deal.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2006-08-03 18:22:40 and read 5615 times.

The trouble is they would be violating their gentleman's agreement with Boeing. Would AA want to do that?
-Mr. X

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: TAN FLYR
Posted 2006-08-03 19:06:03 and read 5550 times.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 52):
I would say why not? With such a huge fleet of md80's it would take at least ten years to replace them all.

I decided just to skip to the bottom and add my 2 cents...So what if it took ten years..the newest ones were TWA's delivered as late as 1999.

Too many of you write off the MD-80 way too soon. Hmmm, look at NWA and DC-9's. Once a capital asset is paid for (many of the MD-80's) the cost is mx, fuel and crews.That is it. New aircraft, lots more cost. These MD-80s have a lot of life left and AA will wring every hour they can from them, as they should.

Remember the 727-023's..paid for..flew for AA into the mid 1990's. IIRC, the oldest ones were the last to be retired..something like 29 or 30 years in service. Same with DC-10's..paid for..flew until late 90's, average service was around 24 years or more.

So, as a shareholder in AMR, I am completely happy with them waiting for Y-1 before making any additional narrowbody choices. We have 47 737 slots left if they need to replace the first batch of MD-80's sooner. I expect that would about cover those needs. I do hope for a decision on a 787 order by the end of the year. MY GUESS would be an order for 30-40 frames , options for 60 more as a start.

Thanks, just my 2 cents today!!

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Fleet Service
Posted 2006-08-03 21:53:08 and read 5429 times.

AA is a big prize for both Boeing and Airbus.300+ MD8X aircraft to replace is a substantial feather in the cap of either company.

Ultimately AA will chose the product that best meets their needs for both now and the longer term.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Airislife
Posted 2006-08-04 00:54:19 and read 5304 times.

well i hope they get the airbus family and get rid of the 737 not the MD-80 to me the MD-80 is a better aircraft espesialy on the two seated side.

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: LMP737
Posted 2006-08-04 01:40:48 and read 5265 times.

Quoting Airislife (Reply 131):
well i hope they get the airbus family and get rid of the 737 not the MD-80 to me the MD-80 is a better aircraft espesialy on the two seated side.

Get rid of a relatively new aircraft and keep one that entered service over twenty years ago?

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-08-04 03:45:49 and read 5181 times.

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 129):
. We have 47 737 slots left if they need to replace the first batch of MD-80's sooner.



Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 130):
AA is a big prize for both Boeing and Airbus.300+ MD8X aircraft to replace is a substantial feather in the cap of either company.

I don't get why most people don't understand.....AA has paid deposits with Boeing, and they will be getting great deals from Boeing.....why would they want to lose all that deposit money, as well as add a new plane to the fleet?

Quoting Airislife (Reply 131):
well i hope they get the airbus family and get rid of the 737 not the MD-80 to me the MD-80 is a better aircraft espesialy on the two seated side.

keep hoping Airislife, keep hoping.. pray .... Smile

Topic: RE: AA To Lease Airbus A320's?
Username: PM
Posted 2006-08-04 08:50:59 and read 5069 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 118):
They made their decision between 737NG and A320 when they bought 737NG. Why would they want to spend the money to have two similar fleets in the same segment? Additional expenses in infrastructure doesn't sound like a good way to maximize shareholder value.

Well, they wouldn't be alone. Off the top of my head, I can think of SAA, easyJet, Turkish, SAS, and RAM who have ordered both. I'm sure there are more. In any case, with the numbers AA are talking about, I'm not sure the economies of scale argument still holds.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 120):
I think the actual quote is, "An oral agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on," or so my contracts professor in law school used to say.

And I think you're right. I stand corrected.


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