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Topic: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-17 05:00:10 and read 39878 times.



Above is a photo from the website tenerifecrash, put up by Pan Am co-pilot on that day, Robert Bragg, detailing the destruction left behind.

However, I have noticed that this photo and several others, seem to be from another crash all together. The wreckage in this photo seems to be from a Lufthansa aircraft, possibly from the Nairobi accident?

Can anyone confirm this?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Lincoln
Posted 2006-08-17 05:07:20 and read 39857 times.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Thread starter):
However, I have noticed that this photo and several others, seem to be from another crash all together. The wreckage in this photo seems to be from a Lufthansa aircraft, possibly from the Nairobi accident?

I could be wrong, but not only does it look like a Lufthansa aircraft, but it looks to me like a 3-holer Lufthansa aircraft (DC-10?)... Weren't the both of Tenerife aircraft 747s?

Lincoln

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 777DadandJr
Posted 2006-08-17 05:13:54 and read 39827 times.

Well, the tail section wreckage in the backround is definately Luftansa.

This photo could not be from Tenerife.

Here is the direct link to the phot page. The photo in question is "EO42.jpg"

http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/index_3.htm


Russ

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Elcableguy77
Posted 2006-08-17 05:15:04 and read 39813 times.

Sure looks like a three-holer to me, too. And yes, both aircraft involved in the Ternerife crash were 747s.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-17 05:19:34 and read 39788 times.

Does anyone have the heart to tell Capt. Bragg he's got some photos on his website that don't belong to his accident?

There are a slew from this accident it appears.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2006-08-17 05:20:30 and read 39788 times.

Definately a Lufthansa tail there. RIP.

According to Aviation-Safety.net, no LH DC-10s were lost. I'd wager that that tail is off of the '47 lost in Nairobi.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0&lang=en

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: YEGer
Posted 2006-08-17 05:29:22 and read 39744 times.

Tail logo does not look like Pan Am or KLM.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ander Aguirre - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Darren Wilson



Does not really look a little like a Lufthansa tail though. There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline, theirs is the same color--blue. Besides, I don't recall a DC-10 or MD-11 Lufthansa accident.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix



Keep hunting!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2006-08-17 05:32:41 and read 39733 times.

IMO, it looks like the white piece below the tail is a part of the fuselage & not a tail mounted engine. It looks like the white is too far down to be a third engine.

DeltaRules

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Outlier
Posted 2006-08-17 05:49:43 and read 39670 times.

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline,

Look again. The white you mention is simply the yellow being washed out/reflecting in the sunlight.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2006-08-17 05:51:35 and read 39664 times.

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
Does not really look a little like a Lufthansa tail though. There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline, theirs is the same color--blue. Besides, I don't recall a DC-10 or MD-11 Lufthansa accident.

Not now, but I believe they did in the past.

Neither PanAm nor KLM ever had such dark blue or large areas of yellow in their livery.
So it's definitely neither of those airlines, whether it's Lufthansa or not.

Either the person maintaining that site is deliberately putting up photos that are unrelated to the accident (which could well mean he's not whom he claims to be) or he's doing so accidentally (which also means he's likely not whom he claims to be, as he'd know where he took them if they were his own and he were there).

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-08-17 05:52:17 and read 39664 times.

I have some additional evidence. I found this Lufthansa flight 540 crash picture on Wikipedia, and it's very similar to one of the crash pictures on the Tenerife site. Obviously, the Tenerife site has some pictures that don't belong there.

Lufthansa flight 540:


Compare this to E035.jpg on the Tenerife site:


edit:
Now I'm confused. I'm now watching Seconds from Disaster about the Tenerife crash on The National Geographic Channel and they just showed a picture identical to E035.jpg on the Tenerife site. So who's wrong? Wikipedia?

[Edited 2006-08-17 06:22:26]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-17 05:53:27 and read 39664 times.

It's clearly Lufthansa, my guess is from the Nairobi accident.

Another interesting thing about that website is that if you read Capt. Bragg's story, allegedly written by him, it is a jumbled mess. Its grammar and sentence structure is so bad, that is it hard to understand some of it. I have heard Bragg speak on TV, and this does not seem to be something that he, or any marginally educated high school graduate, would write.

Also, he refers to the C-131 as the C1-31, more than once. Would a pilot make that mistake, especially one who flew it?

Then to all that, is the fact that photos from other crashes, clearly showing the logos of other airlines, are used in the website as being from the Tenerife accident.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: SKGSJULAX
Posted 2006-08-17 05:56:33 and read 39638 times.

The location of the flag at the top of the vertical stabilizer is correct for a LH plane, but the older LH liveries also had the two-letter aircraft identifier next to (in front of) the flag. Also, the LH DC-10s had the tail engine housing painted blue. In the picture, the piece below the tail looks silver/white.

On the other hand, early LH 747s had the flag forward and the two letters further back on the tail. Really looks like a LH 747 tail.

[Edited 2006-08-17 06:00:56]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-17 06:04:24 and read 39590 times.

Since this website www.tenerifecrash.com is a commercial website selling DVDs, I doubt that the real Capt. Bragg would set up such a crass enterprise to profit from the disaster.

This is somebody under the name of SHENANDOAH MEDIA COMPANY, L.L.C.
which, perhaps with Bragg's knowledge, has set up this website, but which obviously, knows nothing about aviation.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Broocy
Posted 2006-08-17 07:02:13 and read 39465 times.

There is no argument. It is definitely the LH 747 crash at Nairobi. You can see the acacia trees and Ngong Hills in the back-ground.

The photos of the burning 747 are the LH one, not from another crash. It is often used as a stock standard image for crashes in the media.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Planespotting
Posted 2006-08-17 07:11:58 and read 39443 times.

A whole big programme about the Tenerife accident was just on the National Geographic Channel...in the "Minutes from Disaster" series. Pretty good stuff!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-08-17 07:24:06 and read 39396 times.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
A whole big programme about the Tenerife accident was just on the National Geographic Channel...

But they apparently used a stock photo of the LH crash to represent the Tenerife crash. That blew my little mind. That photo was broadcast by coincidence during the 30-minute editing period for my previous post, so I frantically added a disclaimer.  Smile

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: UK_Dispatcher
Posted 2006-08-17 08:02:56 and read 39308 times.

All of the photos in the posts above are definately from the LH B747 crash at NBO.

I know a lot of people think it must be a DC10 or MD11, but that just happens to be where one of the B747's engines ended up in the wreckage, creating an illusion.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 10:21:11 and read 39110 times.

The blue cheatline can be aither PA or LH, but to me, most if not all pics on that site seem to be from the LH Nairobi crash.
Although there might be one that's from a different crash

In this a larger part of front fuselage is still present, and door seem to be facing more upward

while in most other pics including the ones below there is clearly no front fuselage anymore, while the door seems to be facing downward:

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Keego
Posted 2006-08-17 10:56:21 and read 39000 times.

There's no 2 ways about it its Lufthansa. you can even make out the German flag at the top of the tail. Looks like a DC10 to me but DeltaRules has a point when he mentions that the "engine" looks to be too far down the tail to be a 3 holer. I also dont recall any LH DC10's ever being lost but dont quote me on that.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: SK909
Posted 2006-08-17 10:57:35 and read 38991 times.

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo

I think you are wrong. The white you see is the reflection of the Sun, making it seem white.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Alphafloor
Posted 2006-08-17 11:10:01 and read 38942 times.


This is a Lufthansa B747 and the background has nothing to do with Tenerife.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2006-08-17 11:29:29 and read 38878 times.

The pictures being from the wrong crash is not the only thing wrong here. If you go to the '747' photo album, the large majority of the cockpit photos are from the A340, while in the rest of the album you can find pictures of 707s, 727s, even ATRs!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2006-08-17 12:20:45 and read 38720 times.

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
Tail logo does not look like Pan Am or KLM.

Even though we have solved the mystery and the pictures are not from the Pan Am-KLM accident.... neither Pan Am or KLM carried the tail logo you quoted at the time of the accident...both are close, but slightly different.

The actual aircraft involved just months before...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vito Cedrini


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography


[Edited 2006-08-17 12:32:40]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Baguy
Posted 2006-08-17 12:22:13 and read 38715 times.

The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!

BAguy

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 12:29:36 and read 38689 times.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 23):
Even though we have solved the mystery and the pictures are not from the Pan Am-KLM accident.... neither Pan Am or KLM carried the tail logo you quoted at the time of the accident...

No? Take a look at the pics of the aircraft involved:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Howard Chaloner
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vito Cedrini



Quoting Baguy (Reply 24):
The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!

It is. The 1985 JAL disaster is the worst single aircraft disaster.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Keego
Posted 2006-08-17 13:31:00 and read 38462 times.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 25):
Quoting Baguy (Reply 24):
The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!


It is. The 1985 JAL disaster is the worst single aircraft disaster.

This is usually if not always judged on how many fatalities there were!!There were 583 fatalities in Tenerife crash and 520 in the JAL crash in Japan. The only conflict or confusion that comes from this is that there was 2 aircraft involved in the incident in Tenerife. As said above the JAL crash was the worst single aircraft accident and KLM & Pan-Am the worst accident involving aircraft.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-17 15:32:58 and read 37644 times.

If you go the site, not only are they selling DVDs, but they are selling tours!

What is telling is that, for the price of the tour, which includes hotel accomodation, you can also be introduced to the people involved in the disaster.


6. ARRANGING INTRODUCTIONS to MEDICAL PERSONNEL involved in actual
accident

7. ARRANGING INTRODUCTIONS TO AIRPORT CONTROL TOWER PERSONNEL involved in Accident

8. INTRODUCTION to EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT STAFF involved in Accident

9. INTRODUCTION TO CIVILIAN PERSONNEL involved in Accident



I think what is happening here, is that this guy, whoever he is, made a DVD that included footage with Bragg, then arranged these "tours" with these people above, took photos off the internet from the Nairobi crash, as Tenerife photos were very few, and packaged the whole thing as a website put up by Robert Bragg - the co-pilot.

What an insult and shame.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: MalpensaSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 15:36:57 and read 37521 times.

The piece of crap Co-Pilot from Pan Am, wanted to make a quick buck off of the accident. In addition he asked not one single family of the Pan Am/KLM flights for permission to go forth with the documentary. Relatives of mine who boarded the Pan Am aircraft in Los Angeles - Federico(Fred) and Ida Belluomini, along with two other cousins. None of the four survived. The film he is trying to hawk is nothing but a piece of garbage. He uses in excess pictures and pieces from 5 crashes and provides nothing more than a bloated view to make a few dollars. This is so difficult to talk about time and time again. Why are people so obsessed with the final moments of over 500 people? Looking at this pictures time and time again only can relieve the agony and terror the passengers on both flights went through.

Any yes, to answer the quesiton the photos were from Nairobi and that has been discussed time and time again.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Jumpseatflyer
Posted 2006-08-17 15:57:16 and read 37105 times.

Go to the website, click on "photo gallery" and click on "747." The cockpit shots are clearly from other planes (I see an A340 in there and an ATR of some sort).

The transcript from the F/O was a mess. I could barely get through it.

Clearly a sales pitch, definately a shame.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2006-08-17 16:05:34 and read 36970 times.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
According to Aviation-Safety.net, no LH DC-10s were lost. I'd wager that that tail is off of the '47 lost in Nairobi.



Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 7):
IMO, it looks like the white piece below the tail is a part of the fuselage & not a tail mounted engine. It looks like the white is too far down to be a third engine.

DeltaRules



Quoting Keego (Reply 19):
There's no 2 ways about it its Lufthansa. you can even make out the German flag at the top of the tail. Looks like a DC10 to me but DeltaRules has a point when he mentions that the "engine" looks to be too far down the tail to be a 3 holer. I also dont recall any LH DC10's ever being lost but dont quote me on that

definitely not an LH DC10 - what appears to be the engine is white, whereas all LH DC 10's had their engines painted blue.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Sdwranglers
Posted 2006-08-17 17:18:18 and read 35751 times.

Out of curiousity, is there anyone who has purchased or viewed the DVD being marketed by Shenandoah Media Company?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: IFEMaster
Posted 2006-08-17 17:19:41 and read 35751 times.

I'm calling BS on this website. In addition to all the discussion above about inaccurate pictures, poor grammar etc., I would bet that Bragg probably has nothing to do with "Shenandoah Media Company" and likely wouldn't endorse this website if he knew how poor and blatantly inaccurate it is.

I sent an email off to the address on the website...if I get a reply, I'll post it.

EDIT: Had to post this. He is apparently talking about what happens when you suffer an engine failure...

"in a 747 if you loose an engine you have to descend 8000 feet. And then the airplane will continue right on at the same speed as you were doing at a higher altitude on 4 engines. And, a matter of fact, you don't even tell the passengers typically because they cant see the propellers stopping which in a sense there is no propeller."

 rotfl 

This ain't no airline captain writing...

[Edited 2006-08-17 17:25:37]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-17 17:59:24 and read 35100 times.

After 5 years of lurking, skulking, and lingering around A.net on a dang near daily basis, this massive crock made me sign up.

Here's some publicly available 'Google-able' info...

Address of Shenandoah Media Co. Ltd.
10401 Whispering Pine Lane
McGaheysville, VA 22840

...which matches this lady found on both Shen Media's site and on The Library of Virginia's list of professional researchers.

Dorothy A. Boyd-Bragg, Ph.D.
10401 Whispering Pine Lane
McGaheysville, Virginia 22840
Fax 540-289-7210
boydbrda@jmu.edu

Note that her email address on the library's site has an educational domain. JMU for those of you not too familiar with the mid-Atlantic coast of the USA is James Madison University. Uh oh. Gosh, I sure hope she ain't a faculty member or something because a university sure will take a dim view of a lack of intellectual integrity!

Guess what?

Dorothy Ann Boyd Bragg (faculty)
James Madison Center
MOOD 210A
MSC 2001
office phone: +1 540 568 3548
e-mail: boydbrda@jmu.edu

That's pasted right off of JMU's directory page.

Any thoughts?

[Edited 2006-08-17 18:14:58]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Exaauadl
Posted 2006-08-17 18:22:07 and read 34683 times.

what year did LH 747 crash in NBO? What were the fatalities and injuries?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Lijnden
Posted 2006-08-17 18:28:44 and read 34592 times.

Plane was D-ABYB, a 747 of Lufthansa that crashed during take off at NBO in 1974.

BTS

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2006-08-17 18:33:57 and read 34475 times.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 25):
No? Take a look at the pics of the aircraft involved:

The tail in the first picture show shows a dark-colored tail, with a lighter logo, so it cannot be the Pan Am Tenrife aircraft. Plus, clearly, the picture in the thread-starter is of an aircraft with a tail-mounted engine. No doubt of that.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2006-08-17 18:51:55 and read 34175 times.

Also, if you want even more confirmation, compare the cheatline and black radome in the pictures at post 10 to the PA 747 invovled in the crash...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2006-08-17 19:25:55 and read 33609 times.

No disrespect meant here - but whoever put together that photo gallery just randomly threw in aviation crash photos. Like this one for example:

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 432 File size: 49kb


Unless I've missed something, there was no B727 involved in the Tenerife crash. This photo is 100% the right main landing gear from a 727. The canoe, the gear bay, the packs, the two-wheeled bogies, the fat-boy tires, the landing gear door, the flaps . . . . this is absolutely positively from a 727.

What's the deal with that site?

Drew

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BA84
Posted 2006-08-17 19:52:25 and read 33162 times.

Bravo! to 33Zulu.
Good detective work.
Welcome aboard!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-17 20:11:28 and read 32834 times.

Here are some more details I've pulled up about Dorothy Boyd-Bragg. I'm not trying to pull any kind of character assassination here (and not to flatter myself, I'm just some guy posting on a forum...) but Dorothy is the only contact person I can find on this turd-of-a-website.

This is her bio on James Madison University's website.

This is her bio on some little publishing company that has put out histories of area churches and a cookbook.

Personal opinion...
It burns me up that someone is cashing in on other people's tragedy. I can't see how the website's content is benefitting anyone or any cause except the peddler of this DVD. Sensational pictures of burning debris... bodies... these are people's sisters, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers... It's obscene. It doesn't appear that Mr. Bragg or Ms. Boyd-Bragg are taking a completely passive role in this site since the contact addresses seem to match up with Dorothy's other unrelated interests.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Aussieindc
Posted 2006-08-17 20:19:54 and read 32675 times.

Quoting BA84 (Reply 39):
Bravo! to 33Zulu.
Good detective work.
Welcome aboard!

Dito!

Has anyone dared call her on it yet?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2006-08-17 20:31:40 and read 32452 times.

Well done on your super sleuthing 33Zulu. Welcome.

I share your level of amazement that a supposed PhD is behind this info dissemination. I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Golftango
Posted 2006-08-17 20:33:06 and read 32452 times.

Quoting Alphafloor (Reply 21):

This is a Lufthansa B747 and the background has nothing to do with Tenerife.

You can even see the Lufthansa titles above the cabin door.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2006-08-17 20:45:47 and read 32216 times.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 42):
I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.



Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 40):
Here are some more details I've pulled up about Dorothy Boyd-Bragg.

As Dorothy purports to be an English graduate from Temple and a professional document editor, I can safely assume my statement (above) is likely the case.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Alberchico
Posted 2006-08-17 21:03:38 and read 31940 times.

http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/747/pages/3062.htm

take a look at this. This is supposed to a photo section on the 747 but it clearly a Airbus A340 cockpit  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-17 21:19:30 and read 31637 times.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 42):
I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.

That certainly seems plausible to me. Complete conjecture on my part, but the look of the site and it's rabid promotion doesn't scream "history professor" to me. Also, what kind of professor can take time to run around or call around Tenerife setting up interviews and booking hotel rooms? Again, just a guess, but I'm betting someone else is involved. It's not hard to imagine Mr. and Ms. Bragg wanting a turnkey web page for the sake of pitching their DVD and somebody slapped this mess together. That said, it's still indefensible and their names are on it.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: TCFC424
Posted 2006-08-17 22:37:37 and read 30316 times.

Okay, so she shares a last name with the co-pilot of the Pan-Am aircraft. Has anyone looked to see if she is related? Could it be that she is a divorcee of the co-pilot? A disgruntled family member? It seems that its someone who would want to compromise his character, as these images are falsely being advertised as being from the Tenerife crash...Just an idea, maybe Google can tell me...I'll update.

Mike S. in AUS

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Rampart
Posted 2006-08-17 22:42:49 and read 30203 times.

Very interesting detective work, everyone. And what a mess of hijacked history!

I can speak as a faculty member at another university: This Boyd-Bragg connection to the website is very suspicious, and I'm darned curious about an explanation. While not impossible, a weird and factually spurious commercial venture would not be consistent with ethical academic practices. Note also from her website that she is a vice president for academic affairs. If this person is indeed associated with the commercial web site, it's probably not illegal (depending on how much time was committed), but it sure looks odd, particularly for someone in a field where historical accuracy is critical, and where honest academic standards make up one's job description.

Many of you have questioned weather Capt. Bragg is a bonafide participant in the website. I might venture that Dorothy Boyd Bragg of Shenandoah productions MAY not be the academic of the same name (an unfortunate coincidence), or that someone has usurped her name for these purposes. (I wouldn't put it past a disgruntled student, for instance.)

But I could be wrong! Private lives of faculty -- more than you want to know!

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-17 22:47:22 and read 30142 times.

Interestingly, there's a Dutch site dedicated to the Tenerife crash featuring the same sequence of pictures, produced by some guys for a school project. It even features the same DVD!

I really wondered who copied from who...

Have a look for yourself:

http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/tenerifecrash1.htm

I might drop them a line...

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: MalpensaSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 23:01:21 and read 29890 times.

Sad to say I still have the magazine it was published in April of 1977? I am not sure. That magazine along wiht a box of correspondence from Pan Am is full of the closest thing to a time capsule that I can think of. That day will be one of the very worst for my family. Every time I pass my aunt and uncles house in East Sacramento, I think what was the last thing they saw here at there house on the day they left. What was the last thing they were doing on the plane before it happened? In one moment we lost 4 relatives.

Belluomini/Fred (Federico)
Belluomini/Iva
Bernasconi/Remy
Bernasconi/Lena

It is very hard to deal with even to this day. But for some reason I love to fly, and my family does as well. My mother swears by KLM and has even since I can remember. As a child she always held this horrible grudge against Pan Am and whenever it would come time to go to Europe from the West Coast my mother would opt for us to travel on Lufthansa, KLM, or TWA.

By fate or horrible coincidence our neighbors daughter was the Head Stewardess on the PSA flight from SMF-LAX-SAN that crashed a year later. That day I have heard stories about time and time again.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Rampart
Posted 2006-08-17 23:07:36 and read 29792 times.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 11):
Another interesting thing about that website is that if you read Capt. Bragg's story, allegedly written by him, it is a jumbled mess. Its grammar and sentence structure is so bad, that is it hard to understand some of it. I have heard Bragg speak on TV, and this does not seem to be something that he, or any marginally educated high school graduate, would write.

I re-read this, and I'm not so bent out of shape about the text. The website says it's a "transcript", and with the inserted "um"s and mis-hyphenated "C1-31", it would appear to be a verbatim text conversion of an actual conversation, not sloppy or grammatically (in)correct writing.

So, apart from riling aviation enthusiasts, I'm not sure how much of a crime this all is. Yes, inaccurate and possibly plagiarized images are used, maybe intentionally with the assumption that nobody would guess, or unintentionally. Yes, it's a bit crass to make a commercial venture out of disaster. But, people are into these things -- shipwreck sites, Mrs. O'Leary's barn, Typhoid Mary's residences. Heck, I found the Pompei exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum to be fantastic, but 2000 years of history have nullified the personal tragedies.

I still don't know what to make of the professor/VP Academic Affair's role in all this. Pretty weird!

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-17 23:10:25 and read 29753 times.

There is another site with some other (genuine) Tenerife photos. However, Lufthansa is again present on some photos, such as:



http://home.hccnet.nl/joost.meer/pics/tenerife/tenerife03.jpg

The second photo clearly shows that the fuselage near the wing root is almost completely destroyed, unlike the LH747. The KL plane was destroyed almost beyond recognition, except for the empennage.

http://home.hccnet.nl/joost.meer/english/index.html

Scroll down to the end.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Rampart
Posted 2006-08-17 23:18:42 and read 29619 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 49):
I really wondered who copied from who...

Have a look for yourself:

http://www.project-tenerife.com/enge...1.htm

Their transcript replication does cite (in an incomplete way) the original site, www.tenerifecrash.com. So, they are borrowing with acknowledgement, and avoid point-blank plagiarism. Would Shenandoah Productions license the sale of their video to the Dutch site (for sale in the US only)? Same price at any rate.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: MalpensaSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 23:21:26 and read 29554 times.

Guys, can we knock off the photos already?

Posting a link does wonders. Some of the photos are almost replusive.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: MalpensaSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 23:21:39 and read 29554 times.

Guys, can we knock off the photos already?

Posting a link does wonders. Some of the photos are almost repulsive.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2006-08-17 23:30:03 and read 29420 times.

Looking at the different types of vegetation will help you differentiate the two crashes. The PA/KL collision occured in March (Canary Island's spring time is in full bloom) and LH crash occured in arid African November 1974.

Also, LH's blue is much darker than Pan Am's blue, and LH's 747 cheatline was a little wider than Pan Am's light blue cheatline. Nevertheless the photos seem to have suffered in quality, since the blue cheat line on LH wreckage appears much lighter than the usual Lufthansa blue.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2006-08-17 23:40:16 and read 29291 times.

Let's just say a large majorty of the pictures are clearly from the Lufthansa accident. We can beat this to death and poke many holes in the problems of accurcey

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: MalpensaSFO
Posted 2006-08-17 23:40:55 and read 29291 times.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 56):
Looking at the different types of vegetation will help you differentiate the two crashes. The PA/KL collision occured in March (Canary Island's spring time is in full bloom) and LH crash occured in arid African November 1974.

Also, LH's blue is much darker than Pan Am's blue, and LH's 747 cheatline was a little wider than Pan Am's light blue cheatline. Nevertheless the photos seem to have suffered in quality, since the blue cheat line on LH wreckage appears much lighter than the usual Lufthansa blue.

The photos for the most part are the Lufthansa 747 in Nairobi. Also look at the seat covering and the landscape in the background. Additionally please note that this idot of a producer for this movie has got to recieve the award for the most uninformed and misleading person to this date! Trust me some additional photos of the Pan Am/KLM incident left nothing but skeletons of aircraft, billions of ashes.. The Luthansa accidient was horrible but for the most part the frame stood in place. KLM pretty much disintegrated immediately and Pan Am was only left with the overwing section. As one report I have read on the crash eluded to the fact that the passengers on the KLM flight were nearly vaporized, while the passengers on the Pan Am flight were mainly burned to death, blown out of their seats, nearly untouched, or survived with serious injuries.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Mymiles2go
Posted 2006-08-18 03:05:39 and read 27187 times.

Not to point out the obvious by why doesn't someone just call her office tomorrow and validate if she's the same person? Who knows, maybe she's the victim of identity theft and doesn't even know it.

Her office phone is posted in this thread.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-18 03:19:26 and read 27044 times.

Well, if you read the "transcript", whatever that means, of Capt. Bragg, you will see it can not possibly be written by anyone who knows the first thing about airliners, much less an airline pilot. Forget that it is written in the style of a 12 year old, but there are some gems in there. One of the sentences is "...the 747 has about 16 wheels"

I would think a 747 pilot would know exactly how many tires his plane has, not about, and he would know the correct number.

LOL

I could go on and on, but you guys read the whole thing for yourself.
http://www.tenerifecrash.com/transcripts.htm

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Afay1
Posted 2006-08-18 03:38:52 and read 26856 times.

Has anyone else here heard the audio interview of one of the Tenerife survivors who became a preacher? He speaks in tongues during the interview; it is quite compelling...

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Jetflyer
Posted 2006-08-18 03:45:49 and read 26747 times.

That "transcript" is the funniest thing I have EVER read, for someone claiming to be an ex-airline pilot. He has appalling grammar, knows nothing about aircraft, and simply repeats about the 747 how it is a "massive, gigantic, airplane, uh, it's awesome" type BS.

He uses the word "uh" all over the place making him sound even more retarded. Give me a break.

Couple of quotes:

"Keep in mind a 747 has about 16 wheels but basically what happens, the tires go flat on the take off roll and then when the airplane lifts off the ground and the weight lifts off the tires, the tires basically come off the air plane."

"We had uh, situations that were considered abnormal; none of it was major or nothing what I would consider major. When we first got the airplane we had a problem of the windows glazing over and it would be just like a lightening strike and the windows would just go completely white where you could not see out of it. Now that happened to me twice, first time we were in a holding pattern over Rome and we got a lightening strike and the windows completely glazed over so we had to do what you call an auto land in other words we land the airplane via the autopilot which does a fantastic job so that happened twice to me and then on two different occasions -- one time taking off out of New York's Kennedy airport we lost two wheels came off the airplane."

[Edited 2006-08-18 03:47:11]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 9V-SPJ
Posted 2006-08-18 04:41:42 and read 26311 times.

Even the '747' pictures are not correct. Pic 2 is a twin engine aircraft, as pointed out before, most of the cockpit pics are A340 (-600 I think because of the tail cam).

This woman needs to get her facts correct!

9V-SPJ

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 747400sp
Posted 2006-08-18 05:15:03 and read 26097 times.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 10):
I have some additional evidence. I found this Lufthansa flight 540 crash picture on Wikipedia, and it's very similar to one of the crash pictures on the Tenerife site. Obviously, the Tenerife site has some pictures that don't belong there

This was the first 747 crash. Lufthansa flight 540 departed an airport in Kenya and took off did not climbe fast enough and it hit tail first a small hill. There's a book on the crash of Lufthansa flight 540 call "wake up it's a crash".

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Lehpron
Posted 2006-08-18 07:30:54 and read 25796 times.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 10):
So who's wrong? Wikipedia?

That site is a publically editable online encyclopedia, one must find additional sources as it is no different that a compilation of info-blogs.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2006-08-18 13:38:33 and read 25585 times.

33Zulu has done some impressive research. I now really want to know whether professor Dorothy Boyd-Bragg is the same person as the Dorothy Boyd-Bragg behind this website. And whether she is in any way related to the co-pilot.


Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 25):
No? Take a look at the pics of the aircraft involved:

The tail in the first picture show shows a dark-colored tail, with a lighter logo, so it cannot be the Pan Am Tenrife aircraft. Plus, clearly, the picture in the thread-starter is of an aircraft with a tail-mounted engine. No doubt of that.

Sorry, you're wrong on two counts: I replied to the post of EMBQA who quoted YEGer who showed two pics of PA and KL aircraft that both have very similar logos as the accident aircraft. Some people think that PH-BUF still had the old KLM c/s, which is not the case as pics show. EMBQA later edited his post.
Second, we already agreed that the pic of the threadstarter showed the remains of a LH 747 tail and one of its engine, giving the false impression of a LH DC10.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 52):
There is another site with some other (genuine) Tenerife photos. However, Lufthansa is again present on some photos, such as:
The second photo clearly shows that the fuselage near the wing root is almost completely destroyed, unlike the LH747. The KL plane was destroyed almost beyond recognition, except for the empennage.

but both pictures you show from http://home.hccnet.nl/joost.meer/english/crash.html are from the Tenerife crash. Also the first that shows the KLM tail in the background.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 58):
Trust me some additional photos of the Pan Am/KLM incident left nothing but skeletons of aircraft, billions of ashes

Here you can find two pics of the remains of KLM and PA aircraft at Tenerife: http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w770327.htm. Hardly anything was left after the crash and the fire.

On the http://www.project-tenerife.com site (which is a new site created only a couple of months ago) a PDF of a 1977 magazine can be found with some pics as well. http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/magazine1977.pdf

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 58):
Also look at the seat covering

Did LH had orange and yellow-green seats at that time?

the following pic from http://www.tenerifecrash.com/ http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/images/E022.jpg does not seem to be form the LH crash nor from the Tenerife crash. Any thoughts which crash this might have been?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-18 16:04:11 and read 25417 times.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 66):
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 52):
There is another site with some other (genuine) Tenerife photos. However, Lufthansa is again present on some photos, such as:
The second photo clearly shows that the fuselage near the wing root is almost completely destroyed, unlike the LH747. The KL plane was destroyed almost beyond recognition, except for the empennage.

but both pictures you show from http://home.hccnet.nl/joost.meer/english/crash.html are from the Tenerife crash. Also the first that shows the KLM tail in the background.

Yes they obviously are, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I posted those two genuine photos to prove that the other ones (showing "Lu" above the door) could not be from Tenerife.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2006-08-18 18:00:11 and read 25273 times.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 65):
That site is a publically editable online encyclopedia, one must find additional sources as it is no different that a compilation of info-blogs.

That's why you look at the references that most pages cite. For example, look up most US crashes on wikipedia and there will be a link to the NTSB accident report. If no references are cited, you can always add them.

This is no different than any other encyclopedia, and in fact a lot of supposedly reputable encyclopedias don't cite any sources at all. But there's generally no need to "find additional sources", as the sources for most wikipedia articles are right there in the article itself.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: PanAm747
Posted 2006-08-18 19:57:11 and read 25155 times.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/tenerife/3.shtml

This is a picture of the wreckage of the KLM 747 after the accident. Notice that the tail is standing upright. It is not lying on its side, as represented by the scheisters and their video.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/tenerife/4.shtml

A picture of the two jets before the accident. RIP to all involved.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-18 21:30:23 and read 25079 times.

A question asked is "Could Dorothy A. Boyd-Bragg be an identity-theft victim?" In my opinion, that seems very unlikely. Working backwards, you can see that a woman named Dorothy A. Boyd-Bragg is a faculty member at James Madison University. Her email address listed by JMU is boydbrda@jmu.edu. She is then listed with the Library of Virginia as a professional researcher (see reply 33) with the same JMU email address and also a postal address on Whispering Pine Lane. Whispering Pine Lane is given as a mailing address more than once on the Tenerife Crash DVD website. (BTW, map it and you'll find Whispering Pine Lane is located in the heart of the Shenandoah Mountains several miles down the road from JMU over in Harrisburg.) From this I feel that JMU's Dorothy Boyd-Bragg is connected to Shenandoah Media in some respect - to what degree I'm uncertain.

Another matter is "Is Dorothy A. Boyd-Bragg related to Capt. Bragg the former Pan-Am pilot?" I would guess so, but only because it seems simpler that she and he may be trying to make a buck off of a DVD, than say, an unrelated or divorced woman trying to get away with making a buck selling videos after going through a name change or some other charade all the while not covering her tracks all the way back to her 'day job.' Also, don't forget she's offering interviews with Capt. Bragg on her site, too. The latter scenario seems too far-fetched to me.

(edited for a typo. it never fails....)

[Edited 2006-08-18 21:33:00]

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Junction
Posted 2006-08-18 21:53:54 and read 25045 times.

For goodness sake...They should have just done a web site about the LH crash instead. Almost all of the pics on the Tenerife site are from NBO. All of those yellow seat close-up pics are from NBO, and all of the pics with the heaps of personal effects are from the LH crash too.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-18 22:39:22 and read 24974 times.

The guys from the Dutch site wrote me to say they had taken the photos from www.tenerifecrash.com assuming that they were genuine. Apparently more people have written them to say that the pictures were mostly from the LH accident. They told me they will take the LH photos (and other obviously mistaken ones) from their site this week.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-18 22:49:22 and read 24961 times.

Somebody mentioned earlier about an ATR posed as a 747.

Here's an instance.

And now, here's the JP.net photo they stole.

They cropped the copyright off.

If that makes you angry, then at least these '747' shots will make you laugh.

Here.
Here.
& here.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Rampart
Posted 2006-08-19 03:16:55 and read 24804 times.

Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 73):
Somebody mentioned earlier about an ATR posed as a 747.

Here's an instance.

And now, here's the JP.net photo they stole.

They cropped the copyright off.

If that makes you angry, then at least these '747' shots will make you laugh.

Here.
Here.
& here.

I don't see these as the production company passing off pictures of 727s and ATR cockpits at "747s". Instead, I think it's simply lack of labeling -- perhaps they were including a range of related aircraft as well as pictures from the context (Tenerife, etc). But it is sloppy, and it appears that many if not all are plagiarized. To that end, I still find it hard to believe that a history professor is involved! Yes, modest to flagrant plagiarism takes place, but it's so rare. We professors have it burned into our brains: THOU SHALT NOT USURP IMAGES OR WORDS OF OTHERS WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. Prof. Boyd-Bragg would be under some scrutiny if it were revealed that she had anything to do with the website. Still, properly identifying and crediting aircraft photos is small potatoes for the rest of the world, but it makes me wonder about the remainder of the information.

Nobody's been able to verify the Boyd-Bragg connection yet?

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2006-08-19 03:24:24 and read 24795 times.

I have been analyzing all these photos and just noticed something very interesting. I wonder whether someone can elaborate on the following, or has more info regarding these two photos.

There are two photos taken apparently by a KLM passenger (one of the two that deplaned at Los Rodeos?) They're clearly two pictures because one shows part of the PA 747 and part of the rear of the KLM 747. The other one shows the entire Clipper, and the rear of the KLM 747 including engine 3 (or perhaps engine 4?) Both apparently taken at different angles. The latter also shows what looks like the SATA DC-8 already backtracking on the runway.

I would think that it's highly improbably that these photos were later retrieved from the KLM wreckage, due the massive fire and explosions.

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 459 File size: 46kb

Big version: Width: 400 Height: 322 File size: 18kb

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: VS239
Posted 2006-08-19 04:26:37 and read 24723 times.

But didn't you just say in your post that

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 75):
There are two photos taken apparently by a KLM passenger (one of the two that deplaned at Los Rodeos?)

So perhaps these photos were never on the aircaft in question.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2006-08-19 05:06:02 and read 24695 times.

That is precisely my question: Are they really by a KLM passenger?

Only two KLM passengers decided to stay in Tenerife. One was the tour guide. I don't know about the other one. The others were also allowed to disembark and were bused to the Terminal where they did Duty Free shopping etc. But those all returned to continue their journey.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Outlier
Posted 2006-08-19 05:44:44 and read 24669 times.

Friday morning one of the networks had a picture of a 737 captioned as a 767 for the nutzoid woman story. The talker got a weird look on his face when he referenced the photo, I think he knew it was wrong.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 75):
I would think that it's highly improbably that these photos were later retrieved from the KLM wreckage, due the massive fire and explosions.

i don't know, that lady in the one Airport movie was dictating her book and put the recorder into some sort of case. Maybe the photog had put his film into his nice ZH case.?  Wink

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-19 17:49:31 and read 24479 times.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 75):
There are two photos taken apparently by a KLM passenger (one of the two that deplaned at Los Rodeos?)



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 77):
Only two KLM passengers decided to stay in Tenerife. One was the tour guide. I don't know about the other one

To my knowledge, the tour guide was the only one. The picture could be hers, or taken by ramp staff.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posted 2006-08-19 19:58:54 and read 24374 times.

On of my clients business partners was on that 747 on NBO. So his story goes, they worked for Rolls Royce in Derby and used to use the LH service to NBO regularly. He apparently had a habit of counting the seconds from the start of the roll to take off, and that day it was way over and he though something wasn't right. 3 days later he woke up in an NBO hospital and called his wife in England who started screaming hysterically. She had been told he had been killed in the crash based on his seat number, but he had actually swopped seats with someone on board.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-19 20:12:18 and read 24355 times.

I just got another e-mail from the administrator of the Dutch www.project-tenerife.com, who has also followed this thread. I translate-quote:

"First of all I would like to thank you for contacting me. I appreciate it very much if people want to help me to improve my website".

At the forum someone wonders whether the Bragg family actually has anything to do with this site, as I said in my previous mail the Bragg family manages this site.
[the American site, not the Dutch one, BuyantUkhaa]. A few months ago they approached me with the question whether their DVD could also be sold through my website. I have done that, and I am still planning to expand the shop with a lot more articles, but I didn't get around to doing that yet. So I am not the producer, that is the Bragg family.

In the forum it was asked whether anybody did actually see the DVD, well of course I have seen it, and review can therefore be read ay my web site: www.project-tenerife.com/engels/dvdreviews.htm The DVD also contains the errors with the pictures. We wish to this story to our review soon.

Therefore, there was no plagiarism as was said on the forum.

Meanwhile the photos have been removed. At the forum of my web site (http://www.tenerife.frihost.net/forumtene/viewtopic.php?t=18) there had been a discussion for some time already regarding the legitimacy of the photos. In the forum, I had first taken the position that they were indeed from Tenerife. My mistake. Recently I asked a few people to screen the photos carefully, to see which one is from Tenerife and which one is not... yesterday I came back from holidays and discovered the topic on Airliners.net.

Would you please, on my behalf, offer sincere apologies for posting the wrong photos. I very much regret it, and I have put it on my web site already, and will do everything to prevent this. However, sometimes you make mistakes.

Besides, I can tell you that (the way it looks now) the photo album will change soon...

Again my apologies and I hope I may welcome all Airliners.net members on my website.

Friendly greetings,

Webmaster Project-Tenerife.com


He later confirmed that the Bragg family are indeed direct relatives of the PanAm co-pilot.

I suggested him to join a.net. Let's see if he does!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-20 23:58:24 and read 24064 times.

Well I emailed this Dorthy Bragg at Shenendoah Media about all these false photos and the rest when I started this thread, and I'm sure many others have as well. No response. That is telling.

What's more, those photos are still there. That is even more telling.

If a history prof can be behind this, what does that say about the history she teaches?

Then to profit from a disaster that her own husband was involved in. On many levels this website is a not only a sham, but a shame.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-21 01:42:13 and read 23988 times.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 82):
What's more, those photos are still there. That is even more telling.

On the other hand, the Dutch site has pulled them, and is showing an explanatory message:

http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/fotoalbum.htm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 82):
Then to profit from a disaster that her own husband was involved in. On many levels this website is a not only a sham, but a shame.

You don't know if he is/was her husband. It may be a more distant relative. The photos are still incorrect though.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-08-21 02:29:13 and read 23956 times.

Most likely it is her husband. Her full name is Dorothy Boyd-Bragg. So she married him later in life. Bragg is added on to her maiden name.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-21 04:09:12 and read 23875 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 83):
You don't know if he is/was her husband. It may be a more distant relative.

The following is copied off of Dorothy Boyd-Bragg's publishing website bio page linked above at reply 40:

While pursuing her research interests, both as a vocation and an avocation, Dorothy travels extensively, quite often with her husband, Robert L. Bragg, who fortunately shares her passion for foreign places and ethnic food.

For this to be a only a coincidence is beyond belief to me.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Vunz
Posted 2006-08-21 10:55:13 and read 23772 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 81):
Meanwhile the photos have been removed. At the forum of my web site (http://www.tenerife.frihost.net/forumtene/viewtopic.php?t=18) there had been a discussion for some time already regarding the legitimacy of the photos. In the forum, I had first taken the position that they were indeed from Tenerife. My mistake. Recently I asked a few people to screen the photos carefully, to see which one is from Tenerife and which one is not... yesterday I came back from holidays and discovered the topic on Airliners.net.

There are still at least three pictures from the LH crash in NBO...

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-21 11:24:14 and read 23728 times.

Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 85):
For this to be a only a coincidence is beyond belief to me

You're right, I missed that.

Quoting Vunz (Reply 86):
There are still at least three pictures from the LH crash in NBO..

In which section?

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2006-08-22 13:21:55 and read 23470 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 87):
Quoting Vunz (Reply 86):
There are still at least three pictures from the LH crash in NBO..

In which section?

In the section "foto's van enkele momenten na de crash" http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/fotosnadecrash.htm (Dutch part of the site) the following pics:
http://www.project-tenerife.com/nede.../foto/klein/tenerifecrash(2)10.jpg
http://www.project-tenerife.com/nede...s/foto/klein/tenerifecrash(2)5.jpg
and most likely also http://www.project-tenerife.com/nede...s/foto/klein/tenerifecrash(2)2.jpg

the last one is present on the English version of the site as well http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/fotosnadecrash2.htm

I am not sure about this one http://www.project-tenerife.com/nede...s/foto/klein/tenerifecrash(2)3.jpg
After the fire both cockpits were gone as shown here http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w770327.htm

On the http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/index.htm some pics are from Tenerife (some can be found in the 1977 magazine article I linked to in an earlier post)
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/10-c.htm
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/10-d.htm
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/E004.htm
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/E046.htm
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/E048.htm rotated 90 degrees
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/E049.htm
http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/Aftermath/pages/pic9.htm

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: 33Zulu
Posted 2006-08-25 14:16:44 and read 23174 times.

I went back to Tenerifecrash.com and found that Dorothy Boyd-Bragg's name has disappeared off of the site. Also, the Whispering Pine Lane address is gone too - replaced by a post office box.

The most interesting thing to me is that the photo section is no longer linked on the site. As of the time of my post, the pictures are still there, however. Try clicking one of the photos linked in replies 45 or 73 above. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making a good faith effort to clean the site up and the photos will be completely gone soon. After all, each photo is still captioned as "All images and content ©2004 Shenendoah Media Co. LTD".

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Rampart
Posted 2006-08-30 18:22:07 and read 22894 times.

Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 89):
I went back to Tenerifecrash.com and found that Dorothy Boyd-Bragg's name has disappeared off of the site. Also, the Whispering Pine Lane address is gone too - replaced by a post office box.

V e r y interesting.

Whomever tried to contact Dorothy Boyd-Bragg at her university office must have started some track-covering.

I wonder if anyone on this forum actually purchased a copy of the DVD? And, were there spurious pictures of the Tenerife crash on the DVD? Or plagiarized ones (considering that they claim a copyright)? Is the DVD still available if one tries to order it now?

I'd also be curious to scan any student newspaper at JMU. Student newspapers are usually good at finding "dirt", budding tabloid-investigative reporters that they are.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2006-08-31 09:25:18 and read 22702 times.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 84):
Most likely it is her husband. Her full name is Dorothy Boyd-Bragg. So she married him later in life. Bragg is added on to her maiden name.

They got married in Summer 2004:
http://www.lotswifepublishing.com/lwxmas04.pdf page 3

Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 89):
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making a good faith effort to clean the site up and the photos will be completely gone soon. After all, each photo is still captioned as "All images and content �2004 Shenendoah Media Co. LTD".

Let's indeed hope they will clean up the site soon!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2006-08-31 12:52:35 and read 22593 times.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 91):
They got married in Summer 2004:

:D oh the internet and Google!!!

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 2006-09-01 02:35:35 and read 22354 times.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 90):
Whomever tried to contact Dorothy Boyd-Bragg at her university office must have started some track-covering.

I also notice that the mailing address has changed as well. So there again, she is removing her tracks. But the most glaring difference, other than the links for the photos being removed, is that her email address has also been removed, so that you can no longer sent her email! Once again, removing tracks. A website with no email address. Those are the types of websites you know are up to no good, when they don't want you to be able to contact them!

(If you want to contact them, you have to fill out a form with pen or pencil and fax it to them, but only if you want to buy something!)

I'm so glad I blew the whistle on this operation. Selling Nairobi crash photos as Tenerife crash photos, selling ATR-42 photos as 747 photos, selling interviews with retirees, then putting it all together to shamelessly make money from a disaster by compiling this rubbish on a DVD, all to line the pockets of one of the pilots involved.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2006-09-01 02:58:55 and read 22319 times.

I wonder what the Library of Virginia would make of this, both ethically and in terms of the quality of the research?.

Topic: RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?
Username: IH8B6
Posted 2006-09-08 03:16:18 and read 21726 times.

Just read with intrigue this whole post. I only found it after reading the thread about pilots who survived plane crashes and someone was talking nice about Mr. Bragg and someone else linked this up.

It amazes me that someone like this Dorothy Bragg woman could be involved with this. So, has anyone talked to her and called BS?

In addition, the guy in the other thread that said he writes for salon.com could ask Mr. Bragg about this during his next interview??


This such crap!


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