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Topic: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 10:54:33 and read 17633 times.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...hp3?ca=9&si=1694841&issue_id=14689

You need to be a member to access the story, and I can't include it for copyright reasons, but here is an excerpt:

Airline criticised over lack of 'basic' equipment for mid-air lifesaving bid

A NURSE who had to give unprotected mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a dying passenger on a Ryanair plane has hit out at the lack of medical equipment.

Kate Douglas, who was returning from a holiday in Venice, rushed to the aid of a 24-year-old au pair who had collapsed at the rear of the plane.

But she said the Ryanair staff were unable to provide her with any latex gloves or a resuscitation mask.

"I was basically giving that girl who I didn't know, mouth-to-mouth CPR, exchanging fluids. I wasn't not going to do it, but it's not a nice position to be placed in," she said.

The medical emergency arose on the Ryanair flight from Treviso in Italy to Dublin last Friday. The captain of the plane appealed for any medical personnel to come forward and Mrs Douglas, another Irish nurse and an Italian doctor all responded.

Mrs Douglas, from Youghal in Cork, said she could not believe the plane did not have basic medical equipment, such as an airway device or an ambu-bag which is used to force air into the lungs of people with breathing problems.

[Edited 2006-09-28 10:55:05]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Kappel
Posted 2006-09-28 10:57:28 and read 17621 times.

And more good publicity for FR. Not that it makes any difference, pax numbers continue to grow. But I will most certainly never fly them, for a variety of reasons. Like not flying to the city I want to go to.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: UA777300ER
Posted 2006-09-28 10:59:43 and read 17621 times.

Is this just a problem with Ryanair not having them, or is it just not required to have them? Do other airlines have them?

Thanks,
Tom

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-09-28 10:59:47 and read 17621 times.

She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway. Another oppo for a dig at FR.

Normally they deserve it but this sensationalist nonsense serves nobody. They insinuate that FR were indirectly responsible because they didnt have enough FA gear.

Point is - they carried all they needed to under regs, so wheres the problem. Its not FR that need to change, its the H&S regs.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Kappel
Posted 2006-09-28 11:03:35 and read 17580 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
Normally they deserve it but this sensationalist nonsense serves nobody. They insinuate that FR were indirectly responsible because they didnt have enough FA gear.

True, the media is always over-sensasionalist and they love to rip at FR. But I don't mind, I don't like 'em either. Look I respect what MOL has achieved, certainly worthy of a commendation. Taking a small insignificant airline and turning it into one of Europe's biggest. But I will always be very happy to pay more to avoid them.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 11:18:29 and read 17503 times.

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 2):
Do other airlines have them?

Apparently, under European aviation regulations, all planes on short-haul flights must have first-aid kits containing a list of 24 items, including one resuscitation mask and two pairs of latex gloves. There is no requirement to have medical equipment such as airway devices or ambu-bags.

MOL was on radio stating that there was a resuscitation mask in the kit, which was removed afterwards. Both nurses are adamant that there was no resuscitation mask on board, and the doctor backs them up on this.

A quote from one of the nurses:
"They didn't have any type of airway equipment although they did provide us with an oxygen bag and an oxygen cylinder. The staff did their best but they didn't seem to have much competence in first aid or CPR - one air hostess said she was only trained to take a pulse."

While the equiment wouldn't have been able to save the woman, the incident does raise serious questions.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cwldude
Posted 2006-09-28 11:31:01 and read 17458 times.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
While the equiment wouldn't have been able to save the woman, the incident does raise serious questions.

Exactly what I was thinking, if it was just a breathing problem, and all that was needed was CPR, that nurse could have saved her with the appropriate kit, however, she would have been well within her right to say she wasn't going to do it because FR didnt have on to provide, then the woman would have died.

Whilst Ryanair are in no way responsible for this horrible incident, it once again proves their lack of safety! and how the hell can MOL say there was a kit there when he wasn't even on-board? I doubt the nurses and doctor would lie about something like this, knowing full well it's probably going to get FR into serious trouble, and I do genuinely hope they get an ass kicking for this, because it's more than just your average FR problem!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: ADXMatt
Posted 2006-09-28 11:36:12 and read 17432 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
Point is - they carried all they needed to under regs, so wheres the problem. Its not FR that need to change, its the H&S regs.

I disagree.... While the regs may need to change, remember that these are the minimum.

While I am not singling FR out in any means, I'm sure other airlines only carry the minimum.

With the amount of people flying these days why are they putting their employees at risk to disease by not having "basic" supplies.

Sometimes the media can bring the issue to the surface to get the rules changed or for companies to "do the right thing".

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2006-09-28 11:38:33 and read 17432 times.

Quoting Cwldude (Reply 6):
Whilst Ryanair are in no way responsible for this horrible incident, it once again proves their lack of safety! and how the hell can MOL say there was a kit there when he wasn't even on-board? I



Quoting Cwldude (Reply 6):
and I do genuinely hope they get an ass kicking for this, because it's more than just your average FR problem!

I fully agree with your two above quotes Cwldude.

This just yet again goes to show the all the faults, cost-cutting measures, lack of added-value services, lack of basic essential facilities and the complete arrogance of MO'L, and to be honest his claiming that the equipment was available, thus accusing a doctor and two nurses of not telling the truth, just shows how stupid and desperate this man is.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: BrightCedars
Posted 2006-09-28 13:21:26 and read 17179 times.

Guys, what do we know about airlines other than FR having this medical gear?
Do we have facts that compare FR and others' medical kits and show that they are more basic, sticking to the rule, and not innovative?
I'm not a fan of FR but I'd like to know if flying another airline would have put the medical people in a different position, despite this young girl's life apparently being an almost certain loss. RIP

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-28 13:26:44 and read 17166 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway.

Thats not the point.

You dont need all hospital equipment on board but the fact that they did not even have latex gloves on board is a reflection of the quality Ryanair (and perhabs other airlines as well) provide.

I think I've read something about airlines having defibrillators on board.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 13:31:51 and read 17130 times.

As long as it complies with the legal requirements, I fail to see the problem, not least because it would be impossible and naive to assume that you can have equipment in case of any conceivable problem. However, if they fail to meet the requirements, then they should – like all airlines if they breach the requirements – be dealt with.

Quoting Cwldude (Reply 6):
Whilst Ryanair are in no way responsible for this horrible incident, it once again proves their lack of safety!

LOL. If their "lack of safety" was so bad they'd have fatal crashes. Guess what? They don't. Evidently, their safety is very good, not least because it's the number-one consideration, particularly for LCCs: ignorant people, like you, assume they're less safe, so they have to prove they're extra safe. Clearly, you are confusing two issues: safety in this sense is irrelevant.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-09-28 13:33:04 and read 17119 times.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a good idea to require basic medical supplies on board every commercial aircraft. Perhaps this should include latex gloves and other simple and inexpensive medical items of this nature.

In fact, up until now, I have never questioned that first-aid supplies are required equipment aboard commercial aircraft.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-09-28 13:34:52 and read 17119 times.

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 9):
Guys, what do we know about airlines other than FR having this medical gear?
Do we have facts that compare FR and others' medical kits and show that they are more basic, sticking to the rule, and not innovative?
I'm not a fan of FR but I'd like to know if flying another airline would have put the medical people in a different position, despite this young girl's life apparently being an almost certain loss. RIP

 checkmark  I suspect if you did a spot check on the aircraft of most airlines around the world, more than a few would be found lacking in all the essential medical equipment required by law. LCC or full service.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-09-28 13:38:59 and read 17098 times.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
But she said the Ryanair staff were unable to provide her with any latex gloves or a resuscitation mask.

That is absolutely ridiculous. In the US, that would incur at least a major fine.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
"I was basically giving that girl who I didn't know, mouth-to-mouth CPR, exchanging fluids. I wasn't not going to do it, but it's not a nice position to be placed in," she said.

Well, that is kind of F'ed up too. You aren't going to get HIV or Hepatitis C from that, so you don't just leave the person to die. If anything, get a piece of plastic and fashion your own mask

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 10):
I think I've read something about airlines having defibrillators on board.

In the US, every carrier must carry one and all flight crews must be trained to use them.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-09-28 13:40:13 and read 17082 times.

Many of the concerns expressed in this thread seem valid to me. My opinion is that all airlines should aspire toward at least a minimum reasonable level of first-aid provisioning, and while no airline should be singled out, I believe that passengers should not be required to accept the lowest common denominator theory of assistance.

Further, by the same token, I personally would be surprised to learn that any airline would accept that their flight attendants would be unable to administer CPR. (Nor am I suggesting that Ryanair accepts it, or that there was any particular failure or any other wrongdoing relative to the events in the story in question. I have no opinion in this regard.)

[Edited 2006-09-28 13:52:07]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: 747400F
Posted 2006-09-28 13:46:28 and read 17039 times.

I have seen LCC staff use latex gloves when dealing with rubbish onboard, could they not have lend those to the nurses? or would they have to pay for that, in true MOL style?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: MDorBust
Posted 2006-09-28 13:50:32 and read 17017 times.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
But she said the Ryanair staff were unable to provide her with any latex gloves or a resuscitation mask.

Hell, I have that stuff on me and I'm not a medical professional. Why didn't two nurses and a doctor have it?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-09-28 13:51:19 and read 17011 times.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
But she said the Ryanair staff were unable to provide her with any latex gloves or a resuscitation mask.

I sympathize with the nurse. Amongst my qualifications, I am an EMT. I always have gloves and a mask with me . . . whether in my squad car or my personal vehicle. I also carry them in my computer bag. They take up little room and would be a small price to pay if I was presented with a situation in which I needed them, and they were not available.

Two thoughts here:

Perhaps the nurse should consider carrying at least latex gloves in the future.

Perhaps she was in the habit of carrying them but current carryon restrictions in/out of the UK prevented it this time?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway.

Irrelevent really. No one could know that at the time . . . you do what you have to do until you can't do it any longer . . .

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
While the equiment wouldn't have been able to save the woman, the incident does raise serious questions.

 checkmark 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
You aren't going to get HIV or Hepatitis C from that, so you don't just leave the person to die.

That may be true - however, I can assure you that every single instance of Mouth to Mouth I've read about or heard about isn't necessarily done text book fashion . . . what generally occurs is that air gets in to the stomach - as well as the lungs - and the victim vomits. One of the points that is constantly stressed during training and refresher courses in regard to the need for a mask is 'self protection from disease' and 'a vomit shield'. In fact, the masks are more commonly referred to as "Vomit Shields" rather than the proper name. Now . . . I don't know about you, but the idea of having some victim vomit into my mouth isn't exactly the most appealing thing to me . . .  vomit 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 10):
I think I've read something about airlines having defibrillators on board.

In the US, every carrier must carry one and all flight crews must be trained to use them.

 checkmark 

And modern defib units are idiot proof really . . . if the pads are properly placed the machine will tell you exactly what to do and when . . .

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-09-28 13:53:16 and read 17010 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
In fact, the masks are more commonly referred to as "Vomit Shields" rather than the proper name. Now . . . I don't know about you, but the idea of having some victim vomit into my mouth isn't exactly the most appealing thing to me . . .

If it meant someone's life, puke away.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-09-28 14:09:03 and read 16926 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
In fact, the masks are more commonly referred to as "Vomit Shields" rather than the proper name. Now . . . I don't know about you, but the idea of having some victim vomit into my mouth isn't exactly the most appealing thing to me . . .

If it meant someone's life, puke away.

That is, of course, the concensus, however - a little protection can't hurt . . .

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: RyanairCRL
Posted 2006-09-28 14:22:40 and read 16870 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 15):
Nor am I suggesting that Ryanair accepts it,

We're trained to give CPR, we all know the theory and practice it during training. Now I'd trust that doing it on a doll and on someone dying is very different...

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 15):
minimum reasonable level of first-aid provisioning

we carry 3 First-Aid kits in all aircraft. 1 for daily use (bandages, air sickness tablets,...) and 2 complying with JAR Ops, and which include "barrier mask" and gloves. And you'll find the gloves in the smaller one as well.
I personnally have a pair of gloves in the inside pocket of my jacket...because you never know.

As for defibrillators, I beleive they are only mandatory on long-haul flights, but I'm not sure about that.

Quoting Cwldude (Reply 6):
it once again proves their lack of safety!

a few months ago, a woman died on a flight in the US. the crew only realised it when she didn't get out of her seat at the end of the flight....

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: EDDB
Posted 2006-09-28 14:35:39 and read 16789 times.

Fact is that the two nurses and the docctor couldn't find what is minimum equipment in the onboard doctors kit, a resuscitation mask and latex gloves, and I don't see why they should have any reason not to tell the truth...
So that leaves us with two conclusions... Either it wasn't there or it was there and the flight crew did not know where and what to look for!
Both not tolerable imo...

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 14:48:50 and read 16707 times.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
Hell, I have that stuff on me and I'm not a medical professional. Why didn't two nurses and a doctor have it?

If you fly Ryanair you have to pay for checked-in baggage. So people tend to cut down on luggage and bung what they have into a carry-on hold-all. Seeing the flight was coming from Venice I assume they were on holiday.

Also, maybe they did have it and it was in their checked baggage.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Kevin777
Posted 2006-09-28 14:52:37 and read 16688 times.

Guys... great debate here, and I won't enter it!.. Just a little question from a new kid on the block who joined three days ago: What does MOL stand for???
..'Cause I guess it isn't Molde Airport in Norway..

Hope it isn't an embarresing question.... Yeah sure

Kevin777

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2006-09-28 15:00:15 and read 16635 times.

Quoting EDDB (Reply 22):
So that leaves us with two conclusions... Either it wasn't there or it was there and the flight crew did not know where and what to look for!

In either case, Ryanair should face a money fine to make sure the do comply with the EC or national rule they have to comply with as to stocking such medical equipment.
It is also possible that with multiple persons responding in this situation, that the miminal amount of required items were used by 1-2 of them and not enough left for the 2nd or 3rd person or it lost track of them.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: RyanairCRL
Posted 2006-09-28 15:00:37 and read 16636 times.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 24):
MOL stand for???

Michael O'Leary, FR's CEO

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-09-28 15:01:51 and read 16636 times.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 24):
What does MOL stand for???

Michael O'Leary - CEO of Ryanair and Pe@rson's Dad  Wink

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: EDDB
Posted 2006-09-28 15:04:59 and read 16613 times.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 25):
It is also possible that with multiple persons responding in this situation, that the miminal amount of required items were used by 1-2 of them and not enough left for the 2nd or 3rd person or it lost track of them.

Since all three were involved I assume they are capable of determining if these things were once there or missing at all, don't you think?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Kevin777
Posted 2006-09-28 15:06:19 and read 16590 times.

Quoting RyanairCRL (Reply 26):
Michael O'Leary, FR's CEO

Okay that was kind of embarresing actually... but thanks!

Kevin777

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Call911mfc
Posted 2006-09-28 15:09:11 and read 16572 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
You aren't going to get HIV or Hepatitis C from that, so you don't just leave the person to die.

That may be true - however, I can assure you that every single instance of Mouth to Mouth I've read about or heard about isn't necessarily done text book fashion . . . what generally occurs is that air gets in to the stomach - as well as the lungs - and the victim vomits. One of the points that is constantly stressed during training and refresher courses in regard to the need for a mask is 'self protection from disease' and 'a vomit shield'. In fact, the masks are more commonly referred to as "Vomit Shields" rather than the proper name. Now . . . I don't know about you, but the idea of having some victim vomit into my mouth isn't exactly the most appealing thing to me . . .

I'm an EMT as well and can echo ANC. Here in the US, even professionals have the right to refuse treatment without the proper protective devices. Does it happen? Sometimes. It's not an easy moral decision to make, but sometimes you have to make sure YOU make it home safe and sound. I've seen professionals take many chances in the past, but with everything that's out there anymore, it's always better to be safe than sorry.

And as far as not catching anything from mouth-to-mouth, you have take into consideration a whole new set of worries that most people aren't normally concerned about. Did she have bleeding gums? Did she have TB? If she vomits and you ingest some of it, you run a high risk of being contaminated.

Sometimes, it's not cut and dried when it comes to emergency situations.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 15:15:43 and read 16545 times.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 25):
It is also possible that with multiple persons responding in this situation, that the miminal amount of required items were used by 1-2 of them and not enough left for the 2nd or 3rd person or it lost track of them.

Another quote from the article:
"Ryanair said all of its aircraft were stocked with two security-sealed first-aid kits, as required under the regulations. A spokeswoman said the first-aid kits on the Treviso-Dublin flight did contain four sets of latex gloves and two masks but she could not explain why the two nurses had not been provided with them."

Both nurses and the doctor have been on radio talking about how the three of them tried to revive the woman. All three are adamant there was no rescusictation mask.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 15:17:14 and read 16545 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 27):
Pe@rson's Dad

And Cornish's uncle and lover.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Richardw
Posted 2006-09-28 15:31:42 and read 16486 times.

Be careful Pe@rson you could get banned again from this site.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-09-28 15:35:58 and read 16470 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 32):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 27):
Pe@rson's Dad

And Cornish's uncle and lover.

That makes you my cousin  yuck 

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 15:36:59 and read 16458 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 34):
That makes you my cousin

Whatever floats your boat.  Silly

[Edited 2006-09-28 15:37:43]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cornish
Posted 2006-09-28 15:40:31 and read 16436 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 35):
Whatever floats your boat.

water usually  Silly

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 15:41:59 and read 16436 times.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 36):
water usually

You're as funny as a blind warthog running into a brick wall.  Silly

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-09-28 16:10:09 and read 16344 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 37):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 36):
water usually

You're as funny as a blind warthog running into a brick wall

LOL what are you on about? Thats hilarious!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 16:12:12 and read 16336 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 38):
LOL what are you on about? Thats hilarious!

I have no idea. But one thing’s for sure: I am perfectly normal – my 5 physiatrists say so.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-09-28 16:14:19 and read 16336 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 39):
physiatrists

Is that even a word?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: KrisYYZ
Posted 2006-09-28 16:18:35 and read 16317 times.

This is news to me; I was under the impression that all aircraft have to carry full resuscitation equipment (defibrillator, ACLS drugs and airway kit) or does that only apply to long haul flights?

KrisYYZ

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2006-09-28 16:20:27 and read 16317 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 40):
Is that even a word?

Probably not. Hello, my name is Pe@rson.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Traineepilot
Posted 2006-09-28 18:13:49 and read 16104 times.

Why dig them for this? You dont see that kind of equipment on buses. Airlines are no hospitals, they a people transporters effectively. Aslong as they do the job they are suppose to, and is legal, why mock them?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: SK736
Posted 2006-09-28 18:24:58 and read 16063 times.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Like not flying to the city I want to go to.

Isn't that stating the blindingly obvious? Who would fly with any airline that didn't fly to the city they wanted to go to?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-28 18:31:41 and read 16032 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 15):
My opinion is that all airlines should aspire toward at least a minimum reasonable level of first-aid provisioning, and while no airline should be singled out, I believe that passengers should not be required to accept the lowest common denominator theory of assistance.

Hell yeah...perfectly said!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
Hell, I have that stuff on me and I'm not a medical professional. Why didn't two nurses and a doctor have it?

Because the nurses are not responsible for the flight operation!

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 43):
You dont see that kind of equipment on buses.

If there is a medical emergency on a bus, you stop the bus and call ambulance personal to help out!!
Landing a full aircraft does take a bit longer and is far more expensive than buying the minimum first aid kits for a whole fleet.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-09-28 18:45:35 and read 15977 times.

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 45):
Hell yeah...perfectly said! :bigthumbsup:

Thanks, TheSunseeker; I really appreciate that.

I think that many passengers appreciate that airline travel is essentially the highest form of long-range travel, short of a trip on a cruise ship. Thus, as you and others have noted, it behooves us all that airline companies provide as much assistance as reasonably possible so that their passengers are not subject to undue risks attendant to such an endeavor.

Often, for example, I travel hundreds of miles at a time by automobile. When I feel the need, I can stop the conveyance and address whatever issues arise; when I feel the need to sleep, I can find a nearby hotel.

As travel by aircraft is more advanced in some ways than mere travel by road, it seems to me that we owe it to ourselves that we take care of each other enough so that medical emergencies do not subject the passengers to a grossly inferior form of assistance to that which the passenger could potentially have obtained otherwise.

I believe that I am not alone in rejecting the idea that airliners should become glorified "cattle cars" in which passengers are treated without due regard for their needs. And this, I think, is regardless of the formal level of class that is provided.

As a matter of my personal opinion, there is a fundamental and irreducible amount of human decency in addressing foreseeable needs that should apply among all common carriers, and fulfilling the range of requirements relating to this fact should be foremost in the minds of all concerned.

[Edited 2006-09-28 18:50:11]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2006-09-28 19:01:12 and read 15910 times.

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 45):
Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 43):
You dont see that kind of equipment on buses.

If there is a medical emergency on a bus, you stop the bus and call ambulance personal to help out!!
Landing a full aircraft does take a bit longer and is far more expensive than buying the minimum first aid kits for a whole fleet.

Excellent response TheSunseeker to Traineepilot, just what I was planning on responding when I read his post.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: MarkHKG
Posted 2006-09-28 19:11:16 and read 15873 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Perhaps the nurse should consider carrying at least latex gloves in the future.

I don't think the nurse is at fault at all...she has the right not to be a "good samaritan". Considering that the cabin crew is in charge of passenger safety, and thus first aid, they are the ones who should have had access to barrier devices such as gloves.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
A spokeswoman said the first-aid kits on the Treviso-Dublin flight did contain four sets of latex gloves and two masks but she could not explain why the two nurses had not been provided with them

This means the confusion probably boils down to a training issue. Perhaps understandable during a crisis situation.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 41):
I was under the impression that all aircraft have to carry full resuscitation equipment (defibrillator, ACLS drugs and airway kit)

Well, in the Emergency Medical Kits I have seen, the drugs are sadly lacking. Usually a couple of ampoules of adrenalin (epi), lidocaine...and then they throw in some pain meds, an epi-pen and antihistamines. What really matters most would be to have the defibrillator...

Quoting RyanairCRL (Reply 21):
I personnally have a pair of gloves in the inside pocket of my jacket...because you never know.

Good on you! Always prepared. I would hate to have to deal with the projectile vomiting without them.

[Edited 2006-09-28 19:13:52]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: BAStew
Posted 2006-09-28 19:22:30 and read 15831 times.

The simple fact is, no matter what the medical emergency if the condition (what ever it is) leads to the casualty to stop breathing, equipment and training need to be in place for CPR.

Angina, diabeties, hypoxia etc on their own are not necessarily life threatening. But if in severe cases these all lead to the same thing.....the casualty stop breathing, folowed by the heart stopping and CPR is required.

The only real 'equipment' needed for CPR is staff trained in the procedure.

If you don't have that, any other equipment is useless.

At BA we do carry de-fibs, ambi bags, masks, gloves etc. Many of us actually carry a 'face shield' on our person in case the need might arise. It is drilled into us the importance of how quick CPR/de-fib must start to give a non-breathing passenger the best chance of survival.

However, the official line from our Aviation Medical Training department is that we should not start mouth to mouth resucitation without a face shield. Personally, I think if faced with a situation where i encountered a passenger not breathing and i didn't have my faceshield I would begin mouth-to-mouth regardless.

For an airline not to carry basic masks/gloves (or maybe their crew just not know where they are located on the aircraft?) is a disgrace.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-28 20:12:48 and read 15724 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 47):
Excellent response TheSunseeker to Traineepilot, just what I was planning on responding when I read his post.

Thank You, Toulouse  Smile

Quoting BAStew (Reply 49):
For an airline not to carry basic masks/gloves (or maybe their crew just not know where they are located on the aircraft?) is a disgrace.

To me "not knowing where the kit is" is far worse than "not having one on board". Anyway, we all know "Ryanair" (and others) and "Quality airline" dont go together!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 20:13:18 and read 15723 times.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 48):
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
A spokeswoman said the first-aid kits on the Treviso-Dublin flight did contain four sets of latex gloves and two masks but she could not explain why the two nurses had not been provided with them

This means the confusion probably boils down to a training issue. Perhaps understandable during a crisis situation.

. . . or that they weren't on board at all.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Traineepilot
Posted 2006-09-28 20:35:33 and read 15652 times.

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 45):
Landing a full aircraft does take a bit longer and is far more expensive than buying the minimum first aid kits for a whole fleet.

Point taken, but by the same token, an airline takes a person from point a, to point b, bottom line is, that is their responsibility.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2006-09-28 20:43:30 and read 15505 times.

You all are missing the point-Apparently the passenger's family was incensed because Ryanair charged a 50% surcharge to her for dying on the flight since she had to be carried off the plane. I've heard of no frills but this is beyond the pale.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Access-Air
Posted 2006-09-28 21:13:37 and read 15100 times.

Quoting Call911mfc (Reply 30):
I'm an EMT as well and can echo ANC. Here in the US, even professionals have the right to refuse treatment without the proper protective devices. Does it happen? Sometimes. It's not an easy moral decision to make, but sometimes you have to make sure YOU make it home safe and sound. I've seen professionals take many chances in the past, but with everything that's out there anymore, it's always better to be safe than sorry.

One could make the same excuse about not wanting to drive to work for fear that some one might be out there driving without insurance and might hit them...

A human life is a human life and if you are so conceited to not want to help someone just because you didnt have all the sterile medical supplies that you normailly might, how couild you live with yourself knowing that you could have saved someone...especially if they died.....
I thought that there was a law that said if you know how to save someone and you knowingly dont try to help them that you can be held liable???
If they die anyway I would at least be happy to know that did soemthing and not stood off coweing in a corner afraid I might catch something....

If we would stop sterilizing everything out there, we might be bale to build up normal tolerances for common things. Instead we are slowly killing ourselves by not allowing ourselves to be exposed to anything and soon we will all have to live in a bubble...... Sometimes, I swear that most of us do anyway....

Access-Air

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-09-28 21:20:15 and read 15013 times.

Quoting 747400F (Reply 16):
I have seen LCC staff use latex gloves when dealing with rubbish onboard

I was gunna say the same thing. Well I might not have said rubbish  silly . At least when I was on the ramp and we had to clean planes on turns, sometimes F/A's would help us if it was a quick turn. They usually had a stash of gloves in the galleys.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 46):

 checkmark  Great post!

RIP to the woman.  pray 

Dave

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-09-28 21:22:29 and read 14962 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 55):
 checkmark  Great post!

Thanks, DavestanKSAN! I appreciate your nice comment.

[Edited 2006-09-28 21:23:56]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2006-09-28 21:24:30 and read 14913 times.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
its not as if they could have done anything anyway

Rediculous comment.

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
ut she said the Ryanair staff were unable to provide her with any latex gloves or a resuscitation mask.

If this is the case it's a pretty piss poor effort. I know for a fact that BA, BMI, Cathay, Emirates and Monarch (and I'm sure many more) carry latex gloves and sufficient kit to PROTECT the crew (what if the patient was bleeding and had HIV). Emirates (I know it's not a LCC before anybody wants to make a comparison) have a thing called "Medlink" where they are connected directly via Sat Phone to a medical centre based in the U.S where specialist doctors are on hand to give advice to the attending crew. The patient can also be 'strapped up' to assorted bits of medical kit such as a ECG monitor and this data, inturn, is fed via "Medlnk" again so the doctors can have a better idea of the condition. This being the case, it would be better to fall ill on a EK flight than call NHS Direct!

I would be intrigued to know before we all start battering FR (as we love to do except Lord Pe@rson!) if while they would be legally obliged to carry the "bare essentials" if they carry more than that prerequisite and, on the same note, if other competing carriers carry a more comprehensive inventory.

My personal theory (and I've never thought about his) is that it would suit Michael O'Leary's business model if he could streamline this as much as possible to save precious "Dinero".

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Tarheel
Posted 2006-09-28 21:47:53 and read 14605 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway. Another oppo for a dig at FR

You're talking nosense. The complaints were BEFORE anyone knew she had a brain hemorrhage (please note correct spelling). These brave and heroic people risked their lives to help her. Don't you agree that a certain life saving equipment should be on board ANY form of transport?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Allstarflyer
Posted 2006-09-28 22:06:40 and read 14339 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
Point is - they carried all they needed to under regs, so wheres the problem. Its not FR that need to change, its the H&S regs.

 checkmark 
More something along the lines of this . . .

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
In the US, every carrier must carry one and all flight crews must be trained to use them.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
If anything, get a piece of plastic and fashion your own mask

I like your take on this. If it does mean somebody's life, then, by all means, use whatever necessary to help. But, I used to be an EMT, and I would shudder at the thought of some of the things that we possibly could have faced (like in this scenario). If the person giving the treatment doesn't feel safe (given a scenario like this w/body fluids, etc.), I don't blame them for not wanting to get involved on that basis. But, if it was me on the ground needing help, I'd sure appreciate someone trying to help, regardless if they had the tools necessary. It's not like you have to have the state-of-the-art equipment to effectually assist the patient.

-R

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2006-09-28 22:18:04 and read 14163 times.

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 45):
If there is a medical emergency on a bus, you stop the bus and call ambulance personal to help out!!

Right, Bill Busdriver on Greyhound will call an ambulance from fifty or a hundred miles away, if his cell phone is online.

And when on a train, a fellow passenger pulls the emergency brake, the loco man comes to your coach and orders an ambulance chopper from 1-, 2-, 300 miles away.

No. We have to live with the fact that we are not constantly watched by our doctor 7x24. A thousand times more people die while sleeping in their bed than while en route on an airliner.

Every time a person dies on a bus, train, airliner, biz jet, while warking on the street sidewalk, or at their office desk, then we could ague, if only the world's best doctor had been around, if only the best equipped hospital had been next door, then a life might have been saved.

Over the last 40 years or so I have read 3 or 4 times in a newspaper: "Passenger died on SAS plane". Was that a press issue? No. It was a message explaning why a hundred other pax had their travel schedule ruined by an extra unscheduled landing.

Why is it an issue when it happens on an FR plane? Because Ryanair happens to be in the same league as a few other companies such as Walmart. Every journalist in the world feels that it is their duty to kick those companies every time they stumble over any tiny incident.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-09-28 22:27:41 and read 14035 times.

Quoting Call911mfc (Reply 30):
Sometimes, it's not cut and dried when it comes to emergency situations.

Yes it is, particularly when doctors are involved

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 59):
If the person giving the treatment doesn't feel safe (given a scenario like this w/body fluids, etc.), I don't blame them for not wanting to get involved on that basis.

Apparently there were doctors involved here, which means they violated their hypocratic oath.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: MarkHKG
Posted 2006-09-28 23:00:52 and read 13601 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 61):

Apparently there were doctors involved here, which means they violated their hypocratic oath.

The Hippocratic Oath is "do no harm" , not "get in harms way". Nurses, doctors and other medical professionals are under no obligation to respond to off-duty emergencies.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-28 23:04:16 and read 13570 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 61):
Apparently there were doctors involved here, which means they violated their hypocratic oath.

They did their best. There was one doctor and two nurses, and to quote one of the nurses "We were in extreme difficulty doing the CPR because we didn't have that. It was very distressing anyway, but then you just get angry because there wasn't even the most basic equipment."

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 57):
Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
its not as if they could have done anything anyway

Rediculous comment.

Don't know how you managed that, Cumulus, but that's not my quote!

Quoting Tarheel (Reply 58):
hemorrhage (please note correct spelling).

You say hemmorrhage, we say haemorrhage!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2006-09-28 23:27:30 and read 13283 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway. Another oppo for a dig at FR.

Sorry Braybuddy!!!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Aa757first
Posted 2006-09-28 23:40:00 and read 13141 times.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 41):

This is news to me; I was under the impression that all aircraft have to carry full resuscitation equipment (defibrillator, ACLS drugs and airway kit) or does that only apply to long haul flights?

In the United States, airlines carry three main types of kits. Standard first aid kits, with bandages, tape, CPR masks, gloves, etc. Then there is the "Advanced" first aid kit (I can't remember the correct name) that carries ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) drugs, stethescopes, blood pressure cuffs, etc. These usually can only be opened by a medical professional. Additionally, all aircraft in the United States must carry an AED, regardless of flight length. Flight attendants are usually trained in basic first aid, AED and CPR.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 54):

A human life is a human life and if you are so conceited to not want to help someone just because you didnt have all the sterile medical supplies that you normailly might, how couild you live with yourself knowing that you could have saved someone...especially if they died.....

I'm sure the vast majority of medical professionals would agree. Of all of the doctors and nurses I know, not a single one would refuse to help. But people have to put themselves first. There can be blood or feces in vomit. Obviously, this introduces the risk of HIV, HCV and dozens of other dangerous diseases.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 54):
I thought that there was a law that said if you know how to save someone and you knowingly dont try to help them that you can be held liable???

If of all, if continuing to give CPR/first aid is considered unsafe, no one is ever forced to continue to give aid. Here, it could be easily argued that giving aid is unsafe.

Secondly, in the US, that only exists if there was a prior relationship between the two. So if the victim was the doctor's patient, yes, he must give aid. Here, that doesn't apply.

I'm glad that all three of them continued to give CPR. If I were in that position I would probably give aid, too. But if they didn't, I would understand.

What's the scariest about this is the RyanAir flight attendants. They sound incompetent. All flight attendants should be able to do CPR, and basic medical equipment should be available, with flight attendants knowing where they are.

AAndrew

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-09-29 00:10:18 and read 12790 times.

Did she have an anyurism? Poor girl, 24 years old and out of the blue she dies.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Ken777
Posted 2006-09-29 00:34:51 and read 12556 times.

I'm not a medical professional, but my wife is - she's been a physiotherapist for 40 years and has seen a lot of changes during that time. The one thing that hasn't changed is that these people care for the patient. The airlines should provide a minimal level of care, be they LCCs or one of the majors. Unfortunately it seems that not all take the effort to come up to standard, which means that several things have to happen.

1) Regulations that specify minimum requirements for a medical kit that a plane has to have in order to fly pax.

2) Frequent, random inspections to ensure the equipment is on board.

3) A nice little fine (say around $25,000) if the equipment is not on board.

4) If the plane is missing anything in the medical kits then the plane is parked by the fence until the missing parts are placed on board.

While point 3 might ensure some airlines are in compliance point 4 will ensure ALL airlines get their act together - especially after the first plane is parked for a day. Until non-compliance is painful a lot of airline managers won't be that concerned.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Aztec01
Posted 2006-09-29 03:06:08 and read 11493 times.

Quote:
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway.

I remember that the next time someone collapses...it's probably a brain hemorrhage so there's no point in doing anything. It probably won't work anyway.

Quote:
You aren't going to get HIV or Hepatitis C from that, so you don't just leave the person to die. If anything, get a piece of plastic and fashion your own mask

There's an idea, spend 10-15 minutes rooting around an airplane trying to find a piece of plastic that will conform to a persons face and provide the airtight seal necessary to inflate a victim's lungs. What are you going to use to cut it if it's too big...boxcutters?

Quote:
Why didn't two nurses and a doctor have it?

Unlike airlines, there is no regulation that a doctor and/or nurse must carry two sets of latex gloves and a resuscitation mask.

Quote:
Perhaps the nurse should consider carrying at least latex gloves in the future.

So now it's HER fault!

Quote:
If it meant someone's life, puke away.

If they puke, they generally aspirate all those nice juicy stomach contents into the lungs and die.

Quote:
If there is a medical emergency on a bus, you stop the bus and call ambulance personal to help out!! Landing a full aircraft does take a bit longer and is far more expensive than buying the minimum first aid kits for a whole fleet.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Quote:
One could make the same excuse about not wanting to drive to work for fear that some one might be out there driving without insurance and might hit them...A human life is a human life and if you are so conceited to not want to help someone just because you didnt have all the sterile medical supplies that you normailly might, how couild you live with yourself knowing that you could have saved someone...especially if they died.....I thought that there was a law that said if you know how to save someone and you knowingly dont try to help them that you can be held liable??? If they die anyway I would at least be happy to know that did soemthing and not stood off coweing in a corner afraid I might catch something....

Sanctimonius ravings from someone who, most likely, has never risked his/her own life for a fellow man. EMT's rule!! If I'm down in the field I'd rather have an EMT, EMT-P than a doctor or nurse any day of the week. I get to train them in hospital clinical rotations and have never doubted their integrity, their drive, or their desire to help others. Some people should walk a mile in an EMT's shoes before pontificating about their lack of righteousness. Better yet, let THEM run up 8 flights of stairs in order to bring down that 500lb CVA at 3am!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Spark
Posted 2006-09-29 04:06:48 and read 11092 times.

This is very easy, and doesn't need that much discussion.
Even though the poor woman had a brain hemorrage and there was nothing the nurses could do, Ryan Air did not have BASIC first aid equiptment that should be in every first aid kit (which should be in every car, office building, bus, and airplane). Gloves are a basic first aid necessity, and no first aid provider should ever feel obliged to aid a victim without them (and it isn't their fault if they don't have them on their person). Everyone helping the victim should have gloves on, and they should be readily available.
As far the mask, that is a requirement for CPR, and I can't believe any airline would even think about not having one available (its kind of like a kitchen without a fire extinguisher). Yes, Hepatitis is a real possibility under those circumstances (people should take an airborne pathogen class), and it would be a tragedy for some one to be exposed to Hepatitis trying to save a person (or vice-a-versa). I find it appalling that the staff couldn't find a mask for the nurse (even if there was one in the kit, it obviously wasn't very easy to find, and that is still a problem). While the woman's death was not Ryan Air's fault, they should feel thankful that a major flaw in their first aid system was exposed in a case that there was really nothing to do.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-09-29 04:17:56 and read 11004 times.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 62):
The Hippocratic Oath is "do no harm" , not "get in harms way". Nurses, doctors and other medical professionals are under no obligation to respond to off-duty emergencies.

Ethically, they absolutely are. By not aiding in an emergency, they are doing harm.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: BA84
Posted 2006-09-29 04:42:00 and read 10832 times.

Every Air Canada plane carries a defibrillator.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Aussieindc
Posted 2006-09-29 04:55:54 and read 10705 times.

If she was to pass an accident on the road, would she think twice before giving mouth to mouth if someone needed resuscitation, even if she didn't have latex gloves or an airway device?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: MarkHKG
Posted 2006-09-29 06:05:04 and read 10256 times.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 65):
"Advanced" first aid kit (I can't remember the correct name)

"Enhanced Medical Kit" or EMK

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 65):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 54):
I thought that there was a law that said if you know how to save someone and you knowingly dont try to help them that you can be held liable???



Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Ethically, they absolutely are. By not aiding in an emergency, they are doing harm.

Let me re-emphasize that off duty medical professionals have no LEGAL obligation to respond to emergencies. The people who are liable are the ones who have a duty to respond...which in this case would be the FR crew.

Can one be brought to court on the basis of ethics instead of legality?

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Call911mfc
Posted 2006-09-29 06:19:05 and read 10162 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Ethically, they absolutely are. By not aiding in an emergency, they are doing harm

If they had the equipment and used it improperly, they could be held liable for negligence.
However, without the proper equipment (gloves, barrier devices) to ensure their safety, a medical care giver has EVERY right to refuse to treat someone if doing so may put them in harm's way. If they make the choice to refuse under those circumstances, ETHICALLY, they are still within their rights.

In the situation described on the flight, all who responded did so under the umbrella of Good Samaritan Laws and as such are not expected to exceed their limited capabilites at the time. The woman had an incident on a plane, not in an ER.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: FlyingDoctorWu
Posted 2006-09-29 06:36:58 and read 10051 times.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 65):
What's the scariest about this is the RyanAir flight attendants. They sound incompetent. All flight attendants should be able to do CPR, and basic medical equipment should be available, with flight attendants knowing where they are.

Being trained in a CPR class is one thing....
Being able to perform in an emergency situation is another

I know doctors, nurses, and etc etc who have all the proper training to handle a crisis situation... though it does not mean that they are actually able to handle it.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Aa757first
Posted 2006-09-29 06:47:10 and read 9998 times.

Quoting Aussieindc (Reply 72):
If she was to pass an accident on the road, would she think twice before giving mouth to mouth if someone needed resuscitation, even if she didn't have latex gloves or an airway device?

She performed CPR on the patient without the barrier.

So, to answer your question, no, she would not. However, its reasonable to expect that an aircraft would carry supplies as required by law. There is no law, in the US at least, that requires a motorist to carry a CPR barrier.

Quoting Call911mfc (Reply 74):
However, without the proper equipment (gloves, barrier devices) to ensure their safety, a medical care giver has EVERY right to refuse to treat someone if doing so may put them in harm's way. If they make the choice to refuse under those circumstances, ETHICALLY, they are still within their rights.

Exactly. It would be like expecting an off-duty cop to enter a bank that may have armed robbers in it with no protection. If the cop refused to go in, there would be no objections.

AAndrew

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2006-09-29 08:28:59 and read 9400 times.

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 53):
You all are missing the point-Apparently the passenger's family was incensed because Ryanair charged a 50% surcharge to her for dying on the flight since she had to be carried off the plane. I've heard of no frills but this is beyond the pale.

Please tell me you're not seriously (yet sadly knowing Michael O'Leary it wouldn't surprise me at all!). Where did you see this? If true, Ryanair has even fallen lower in my estimations, if that's possible.

Quoting Tarheel (Reply 58):
You're talking nosense. The complaints were BEFORE anyone knew she had a brain hemorrhage

Well said.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 65):
What's the scariest about this is the RyanAir flight attendants. They sound incompetent. All flight attendants should be able to do CPR, and basic medical equipment should be available, with flight attendants knowing where they are.

I agree. I admit that out of personal preference I have never flown Ryanair and never intend to do so from listening to the constant complaints from friends who have flown them (unfortunately some continue to do so as poeple will continue to do so as in the day money counts, and while I'm certainly not rolling in it (if only) I'll always look for the next cheapest alternative to Ryanair, even if it means driving to an airport further away to take another airline, just the other day a friend rang me telling me about his upcoming trip from Dublin to Salzburg, operated by Aer Lingus and Ryanair, Ryanair had an offer of €0.01 each way, so €0.02 return plus tax, giving a grand total of €30, so he said "Unfortunately I put money first and am already regretting it, ah well, I'll just have a couple of drinks and bring my rosary beads with me!". Numerous people have told me how incompetent they have "often" found FR cabin crews to be, not always of course.
Strangely I have noticed two "slight" emergency situations on 2 recent flights with Aer Lingus from Toulouse to Dublin. The first one was the pax in row one who dropped her full cup of coffee with boiling water on the f/a's leg, and she got quite badly burnt, main f/a took out a medical kit and attended her, she seemed to be in quite a lot of pain and remained seated for the rest of the flight. On another flight I saw a woman coming out of the toilet and going to an f/a, don't know what happened, but there was a bit of panic and she was attended by two f/a's in teh front ofthe plane who used two different medical kits. My sister recently flew from Malaga to Dublin, she's a frequent flyer, and for the first time felt sick about 50 minutes before arrival in DUB. There were no sick bags in any of the seats, so she rang the bell, an f/a finally came after about 5 minutes, she explained she was about to vomit and the f/a simply said they had locked up everything for landing and so couldn't provide her with a sick bag... didn't offer any other solutions. A pax in the other row got furious with the f/a, who didn't seem to give a damn, and the pax, searched her bag for a plastic bag and put it under my sister's mouth just as the vomit came.

Anyway, RIP to this poor young girl. Well done to the doctor and 2 nurses for doing their best in a difficult situation. Shame on FR for not providing the basic equipment. Shame on MO'L for claiming on national Irish radio that the plane WAS equipped with the required medical equipment, basically accusing the three medical professionals of telling lies (1 Italian doctor and 2 Irish nurses) and if Ultrapig is true in stating that FR charged the girl's family a 50% surcharge for having hercarried off the plane, TRIPLE SHAME ON FR and that's every reason to boycott this joke of an airline.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Halophila
Posted 2006-09-29 09:29:11 and read 8956 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
You aren't going to get HIV or Hepatitis C from that



Quoting Call911mfc (Reply 30):
Did she have bleeding gums? Did she have TB? If she vomits and you ingest some of it, you run a high risk of being contaminated.



Quoting Cumulus (Reply 57):
(what if the patient was bleeding and had HIV).



Quoting Aa757first (Reply 65):
There can be blood or feces in vomit. Obviously, this introduces the risk of HIV, HCV and dozens of other dangerous diseases.

I am presently in a serodiscordant relationship (meaning one of us is HIV +ve, one is -ve), and though this has nothing to do with aviation, thought I'd chime in for information's sake. HIV is found in very low numbers in saliva, but it is now known that there are compounds in saliva which destroy the infectivity of the virus. Saliva exchange is considered a very very very low risk for transmission of HIV (note I do not say 'not a risk'). There has only been 1 recorded case of transmission of HIV through saliva in 20 years of monitoring, and that was where, during kissing, the positive person had bleeding gums, and the negative person had recently had dental surgery.

Having said that, CPR, as stated by many people in this forum, usually involves regurgitation, emptying of stomach contents, etc. There is a large chance that this is associated with blood - and thus, the potential for transmission to the resuscitator is increased. This is only really a concern where the resuscitator has sores or weak membranes in their mouth, but it is a risk nonetheless.

Would the fact that someone may have HIV or another disease stop me from providing CPR to an unknown person without protection? I'd be lying if I said outright "absolutely not" - there would be some hesitation. For me, protecting myself, and protecting the health of my partner is my primary concern. Being part of the relationship I am in means you tend to look at all potential modes of infection seriously.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-29 09:58:31 and read 8697 times.

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 57):
Emirates (I know it's not a LCC before anybody wants to make a comparison) have a thing called "Medlink" where they are connected directly via Sat Phone to a medical centre based in the U.S where specialist doctors are on hand to give advice to the attending crew

That is very impressive!!

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 60):
And when on a train, a fellow passenger pulls the emergency brake, the loco man comes to your coach and orders an ambulance chopper from 1-, 2-, 300 miles away.

It will take less for the helo to arrive than for the Jumbo to land.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 60):
Why is it an issue when it happens on an FR plane?

This is not about bashing FR! Its not about wanting a flying hospital on board every aircraft.
Since you compare it to buses and cars: They ALL need to have first aid kits. They need to be sealed! Last time I checked it had pretty nice tools in it. For Example: latex gloves. I'm not sure, but they might have even been double layer latex gloves. I dont own a car so I cant check it right now. I bet you do own a car. Can you check the minimum medical equipment in there? Oh wait, you dont seem to bother about it. You seem to think "people die" and probably excuse yourself with this everytime you could have used the kit.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-29 10:04:45 and read 8640 times.

Quoting Spark (Reply 69):
This is very easy, and doesn't need that much discussion.
Even though the poor woman had a brain hemorrage and there was nothing the nurses could do, Ryan Air did not have BASIC first aid equiptment that should be in every first aid kit (which should be in every car, office building, bus, and airplane). Gloves are a basic first aid necessity, and no first aid provider should ever feel obliged to aid a victim without them (and it isn't their fault if they don't have them on their person). Everyone helping the victim should have gloves on, and they should be readily available.

Why didnt you come on earlier in this discussion.  Big grin
Very well said!!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-29 10:05:02 and read 8639 times.

A simple solution to the problem of insufficent medical kit on aircraft would be for the regulatory authorities to do a swoop at airports and ground any aircraft (or airline) found to be in breach of the regulations.

Funny, that while this story was all over the news here earlier in the week, nobody from the Irish Aviation Authority mentioned a mandatory inventory of medical equipment on aircraft.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-29 10:13:56 and read 8579 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 77):
Ryanair has even fallen lower in my estimations, if that's possible.

 cheerful   cheerful   cheerful 

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 77):
A pax in the other row got furious with the f/a, who didn't seem to give a damn, and the pax, searched her bag for a plastic bag and put it under my sister's mouth just as the vomit came.

Offtopic: My sister was in a similar situation enroute SFO-FRA. Some guy couldnt find his bag. He tried to run to the lavs, but didnt make it. He vomited right over my sister!  Silly  banghead  This happened after 2 out of 12h flighttime! uhhhh!!

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2006-09-29 10:28:54 and read 8461 times.

Quoting Aztec01 (Reply 68):
Quote:
She had a brain haemorrage - its not as if they could have done anything anyway.

I remember that the next time someone collapses...it's probably a brain hemorrhage so there's no point in doing anything. It probably won't work anyway.

No the point i was trying to make (AND TARHEEL TAKE NOTE) - that the way the press have handled it implies that the fact it happened on an FR plane contributed to her death.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2006-09-29 10:37:48 and read 8386 times.

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 43):
Why dig them for this? You dont see that kind of equipment on buses. Airlines are no hospitals, they a people transporters effectively. Aslong as they do the job they are suppose to, and is legal, why mock them?

Yeah, good idea. Why not bother putting first aid kits on any form of transport? Let them all suffer.  banghead 

If you want to be a pilot you better start trying to think laterally.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2006-09-29 10:43:36 and read 8340 times.

I should have posted this earlier, but here's an excellent interview with one of the nurses who describes the whole incident from start to finish.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

Dowload the Monday show halfway down the page. It's the first item on the show.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2006-09-29 10:44:18 and read 8339 times.

May be the aircrew didn't use the first aid kit as it would be taken out of their wages like their uniforms?  duck 

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: MarkHKG
Posted 2006-09-29 10:46:37 and read 8319 times.

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 84):
Yeah, good idea. Why not bother putting first aid kits on any form of transport? Let them all suffer.

I hate to say it, but as it turns out certain buses in some countries ARE REQUIRED to carry first aid kits. And yes, they have gloves in them.

hehe...

 stirthepot   vomit   wave 

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Call911mfc
Posted 2006-09-29 15:41:26 and read 8035 times.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 78):
Having said that, CPR, as stated by many people in this forum, usually involves regurgitation, emptying of stomach contents, etc. There is a large chance that this is associated with blood - and thus, the potential for transmission to the resuscitator is increased. This is only really a concern where the resuscitator has sores or weak membranes in their mouth, but it is a risk nonetheless.

Would the fact that someone may have HIV or another disease stop me from providing CPR to an unknown person without protection? I'd be lying if I said outright "absolutely not" - there would be some hesitation. For me, protecting myself, and protecting the health of my partner is my primary concern. Being part of the relationship I am in means you tend to look at all potential modes of infection seriously.

Thanks for sharing something personal to give us all a different take on this subject. Sometimes it's hard to get people to realize how important it is to use proper barrier devices guard against contamination both ways. The risk of ANY communicable disease is too great to risk contamination. While HIV is always considered the biggest concern, some of the other communicable diseases, HepB & C, TB, are no walk in the park either.

I've seen 20yr nurses give CPR to a woman whose mouth was full of blood and I've seen ER doctors refuse to do CPR on people because of no barrier device, so it's a personal choice.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2006-09-29 17:03:52 and read 7980 times.

Quoting TheSunseeker (Reply 79):
That is very impressive!!

There's a mention of Medlink here in this trip report by a EK pilot.

RE: Pilot's Trip Report EK DXB-SIN-MEL & Back (pics) (by AnneTooh Sep 16 2006 in Trip Reports)

(Btw, this is probably the best trip report I've ever read on A.net!!!)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shortly after we had a sick child on board with severe diarrhea. Luckily we have the opportunity on board to call a US company called Medlink via satellite phone and get medical advice from them. Real doctors are there to help airlines and they do a fantastic job. We even have this monitor onboard now that can send all the patient's data like ECG, heart rate, blood pressure, oxygen level, and breathing rate to them via datalink so they get a real time picture of that patient's condition. Unbelievable. This time of course, it wasn't that bad and we could go on after administering the correct medicine to the little boy. I sure do hope that these doctors know how much they are of a help to us. Don't know about their career with this but I hope it pays and they have a chance to appreciate it. The guys who invented it hopefully became rich, they deserve it

[Edited 2006-09-29 17:10:42]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Infodesk
Posted 2006-09-29 19:31:56 and read 7874 times.

Quoting Aussieindc (Reply 72):
If she was to pass an accident on the road, would she think twice before giving mouth to mouth if someone needed resuscitation, even if she didn't have latex gloves or an airway device?

I totally agree with you. I'm no nurse and if I was in a situation where someone needed mouth-to-mouth, I very much doubt I would stop and think what diseases the person may have. Perhaps I'm too naive, but we're talking about saving a life here.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: Express1
Posted 2006-09-29 21:18:21 and read 7787 times.

It doesnt matter if the flight is short haul or long haul,the matter is that every airline flying today should have the right medical aquipment on board. I dont makes sence to me why that Ryanair do not supply the right medical aquipment for pax and cabin crew, this should be made law without question.

So why does Ryanair have to be diffrent from any other airline? and why should they get away with it?

dave

Topic: RE: Ryanair Criticised After Woman Dies On Flight
Username: TheSunseeker
Posted 2006-09-29 23:07:34 and read 7714 times.

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 89):
There's a mention of Medlink here in this trip report by a EK pilot.

RE: Pilot's Trip Report EK DXB-SIN-MEL & Back (pics) (by AnneTooh Sep 16 2006 in Trip Reports)

(Btw, this is probably the best trip report I've ever read on A.net!!!)

Cumulus, thanks for bringing that up. I absolutly enjoyed reading that Emirates trip report. Mindblowing quality!


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