Can anyone explain what is going on with new hire controllers as far as not recieving the same starting/ advancing salary as controllers five years ago ? I have read a couple of things about the "evergreen clause" and so on, and have heard rumors that previously hired controllers compensation packages will be around $200,000 USD, and that the FAA is trying to lower the salaries to bridge the gap between ATC's and the rest of the FAA employees. Any insight on what is going on within the industry for new hires would be appreciated.

The new contract really cut the starting pay and top out for new-hire controllers. I don't know the specifics but it was a pretty big decrease that recently took effect, though they'll still be making good money.

Starting pay for controllers after completing the FAA academy in Oklahoma city will be $31,700. From their you get raises based on when you check out on different items in your on the job training. In Oklahoma city during the FAA academy new controllers will be paid $8.00 an hour. I believe it might be a few cents more than $8.00 but I'm not positive. This is less than government janitors make. Down considerably from a year ago at the academy when future controlelrs were getting I believe it was $90 a day per diem for food and lodging expenses plus nearly $14.00 an hour.

Dinker

Quoting Dinker225 (Reply 2): Starting pay for controllers after completing the FAA academy in Oklahoma city will be $31,700. From their you get raises based on when you check out on different items in your on the job training. In Oklahoma city during the FAA academy new controllers will be paid $8.00 an hour. I believe it might be a few cents more than $8.00 but I'm not positive. This is less than government janitors make. Down considerably from a year ago at the academy when future controlelrs were getting I believe it was $90 a day per diem for food and lodging expenses plus nearly $14.00 an hour. Dinker

Wages are falling all across the country. Do we really think it is easy to find a $100k per year job? Ph.D chemists, professors, Secretary of State, federal judges all make about that much. Sorry but ATC is not in the same league.

I wonder how much ATC make in Europe. Do they make $100k plus, or is this a purely American notion?

Quoting N766UA (Reply 1): I don't know the specifics but it was a pretty big decrease that recently took effect, though they'll still be making good money.

Does $31,700/annual sound like good money? I don't think so...sounds like what a school teacher makes for 9 months of 8-5 work. Now try $31,700 working in a place like, well, all of California. That almost makes working there fiscally impossible.

I have been to OKC for initial training with the FAA. The pay is pathetic. Unfortunately I was washed out of training and have returned to flying. The pay and work rules for controllers is going through similar changes as the airline industry. In then end, I think it'll be a wash between compensation in both careers assuming one makes it to a mjor airline.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 4): sounds like what a school teacher makes for 9 months of 8-5 work.

Ouch!

No teachers on here ....???  


Jimbo

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 6): Ouch! No teachers on here ....??? Jimbo

Hey, the truth hurts!   

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 4): Does $31,700/annual sound like good money?

Pilots start at 17,000 in alot of cases. Yes, 31,000 sounds decent. It's not what they were making (which is what they deserve) but it's not terrible. Privitazation seems pretty much inevitable, anyway, so we'll see what happens with that and pay/benefits too. Could get even worse.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8): Pilots start at 17,000 in alot of cases.

I've been a pilot and I've been a controller. I can tell you from experience, that being a controller is much, much, much more demanding than a pilot and that more peoples lives are at stake with any controller than an A380 pilot. As a controller, you are ALWAYS busy...you really can't say that with a pilot. And tell my why we're comparing pilots to ATC'ers? Apples and oranges.

I guess we can assume a new hire controller will never see the previous 163,200 cap ?

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 9): I've been a pilot and I've been a controller. I can tell you from experience, that being a controller is much, much, much more demanding than a pilot and that more peoples lives are at stake with any controller than an A380 pilot. As a controller, you are ALWAYS busy...you really can't say that with a pilot. And tell my why we're comparing pilots to ATC'ers? Apples and oranges.

I think ATC's deserve every last penny they make...no question! Pilots too for that matter. But I have been on both sides of the fence. Being a controller is extremely demanding and requires a kind of mental dexterity that not everyone has. But unfortunately business is business and Marion Blakey would rather reduce wages and make the job a lot less desireable. Such is life in this business.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 9): And tell my why we're comparing pilots to ATC'ers? Apples and oranges.

Not really. Both are underpaid professionals, that's apples to apples the way I see it. I'm just giving an example of another job where the employees get jack for pay when they start and, in the case of pilots, it's often substantially less than controllers, nevermind they have zero job security, unlike ATC.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12): in the case of pilots, it's often substantially less than controllers, nevermind they have zero job security, unlike ATC.

Don't speak too soon. More privatization and automation are on the way in the future, I believe. I honeslty believe thats why the FAA is making the job less desirable. That way they can justify using more automation and downsizing, by saying they didn't get enough applicants.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 13): That way they can justify using more automation and downsizing, by saying they didn't get enough applicants.

Could be. Heck, looks what happened with Flight Service. They privatized, layed off a bunch of people (or forced their retirement) and now we've got a mediocre product at best. Gov't beaurocracies suck but the FAA sure did a better job than Lockheed.

Its ashame, With all of the new contracts/ future conditions of the job, I have been steered away from the profession. I am not all about money, please, do not get me wrong, but for the type of work ATC's do, they should be paid a nicer salary then the new hires are going to be paid. Im now steering towards airport management or airline management with my degree plan. I hate seeing this part of the industry being taken advantage of . Personally, I do not care much for Blakely .

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 3): ATC make in Europe

Doesn't compare, All of Europe's daily traffic adds up to less than America's daily traffic, but with more controllers, so American ATC's are stretched further.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 4): sounds like what a school teacher makes for 9 months

Actually that is pretty good for a starting teachers salary (at least in Colorado). Remember the 31k is only until they get certified on a position, when the pay increases for every position. Plus there are cost of living benefits too, so living in LA a starting ATC would make more than 31k (I think.)
But for a starting position, 30k is a lot, especially when it gets above 40k in the first year (from position certification).

ATCme  

Disclaimer: This is info I have read or heard somewhere, it has not been confirmed, so if I'm wrong, so be it.

I was on the waiting list for 3 years and finally my paperwork has begun. Unfortunately it doesnt make sense financially to go ahead with this career.
Ive always agreed that the previous salary was amazing and that if they needed to cut it due to whatever government issues there were that it would be understandable. But the cuts have been DRASTIC. Training is a little over 8 dollars an hour and once you get out the pay is at the 30-40k range depending on the facility. The cap is 80k less than what the previous possiblities were.

While it is definitely true that it is still a good paying job, you need to develop in training to get to your next levels of pay. That means you need someone to train you, and there are ways for trainers to slow down the process to show their "affection" for the ridiculous imposed contract.

The thing that bugs me, as a graduate of the CTI Program is that the FAA was behind it. The FAA wanted new hires to have more information and be better prepared for the courses in Oklahoma City. They went to the schools and developed this program. Now students who paid all this money have to be subjected to this payscale where you really have to scrape by and barely pay back loans. Now its almost like the administration is happy with taking people who show up, take a test off the street and get in. Thats great, but what about all the hard work. Its just not right.

It doesnt mean that someone who doesnt have this background cant do the job, because that can be disproven very quickly. But it just seems like the FAA is lowering its standards at the times when there will be a shortage due to retirements, and more people who werent planning on retiring will do so now because of the present state.

Sorry its a late night ramble but its been part of my life for 3 years and sometimes I feel like venting.

ck

As the media has said as well as the union there is going to be retirements from the Aug 1981 hiring of folks.....within 3-5 years one may very well find a fairly new workforce in the towers, TRACONS, & centers, however it will take possibly 18 months or more to train folks at busy facilities in the terminal never mind enroute facilities, and that is considering some atc background at low/mid level facilities IMO .......more sectorization will happen and possibly staffing won't allow for proper training of the new controllers as they will be working a sector daily they are qualified on with no training on a new position. The days of being totally rated in a large busy facility is a thing of the past.....that has its pitfalls for sure.

And guess what else, a fairly new pilot group as well if the 60 retirement rule remains, oh what fun that will be! Today your Capt of the B772LR will be 30 years old for your flight to Narita, but the Capt will be assisted by the FO who is 32 and your IRO who is 27......back to the good old days I see.  

It is nice to hear all the nice things about controllers on this thread, bottom line almost all to a person totally love the work they do, and for the pay well, it is not going to be the same for the newbies that is for sure.

FSS, oh that was such a great deal......

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5): Unfortunately I was washed out of training

This begs a question whenever I see how this was worded, why do you say you were "washed out"? Was it a faulty training plan or what?

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18): Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5): Unfortunately I was washed out of training This begs a question whenever I see how this was worded, why do you say you were "washed out"? Was it a faulty training plan or what?

It's alot for me to go into on here. But when my training concluded and I was to be terminated every single instructor I worked with, numbering more than 10 disagreed with the decision and fought for me to be reinstated. There are many other circumstances that were at play, but like I said too much to go into here. The FAA is what it is and it's a setback for me, but I do love flying and have returned to the skies to make a living.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 19): It's alot for me to go into on here.

Thanks much.....yes it sure is what it is.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 3):
Wages are falling all across the country. Do we really think it is easy to find a $100k per year job? Ph.D chemists, professors, Secretary of State, federal judges all make about that much. Sorry but ATC is not in the same league.

I simply disagree with you.

Of those professions you listed each have a tolerance and an allowance for error. However NONE of those professions have similar consequences after a mistake.

The second an ATCer screws up, not only does his/her career end, but there might be a huge loss of life for the crew, pax, and perhaps those on the ground in addition to potintal prison time.

[Edited 2006-10-12 16:15:12]

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12): Not really. Both are underpaid professionals, that's apples to apples the way I see it.

That's about the only similarity to the two professions.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12): in the case of pilots, it's often substantially less than controllers, nevermind they have zero job security, unlike ATC.

Job security? Oh, you mean like our union will stand up for us and fight the "contract"? Did anyone vote on this "contract"? That answer is no, and the FAA knows they have us by the balls. I can't go on strike like pilots...so I don't see the validity of your point.

Did you just realize that responsibility, education, skill, experience, qualifications, etc. etc. have little to do with salary???

A pilot is responsible for hundreds of lives a day, and ATC are responsible for thousands. A teacher is responsible for the future of our children, and directly the future of our country. A guy comes in and configures our ERP system for 6 months, with little accountability for what he does, and he gets $150/hr.

Unfortunately I would normally argue that this is due to supply, demand, and the market etc. etc., but in this case some of the professions are paid and regulated by the government and these factors do not come into account.


Jimbo

I am a controller in the af and have many friends getting out and going to the FAA. It sucks that pay got cut by so much but as some have already said as soon as you get ratings you get raises. With Locality pay added it is more like 37000 in many places. I am also a pilot (fly skydivers part time) and I can say that ATC is more demanding 90% of the time. Now give that pilot an emergancy or terrible weather and the situation changes. I feel for the controllers that were on the old scales and then got a cut since they had not recieved a position rating yet. This placed them on the new scale...

Justin

Quoting SWAOPSusafATC (Reply 24): Now give that pilot an emergancy or terrible weather and the situation changes.

Emergencies for controllers are much more common and often just as stressful. My advice would be to stay in the USAF...you'll get paid better have better benefits, retirement, and still be able to get another great job when you get out after 20 years.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 22): I can't go on strike like pilots...so I don't see the validity of your point.

The ability to strike has nothing to do with job security. Once you're hired as an ATC with the FAA you're more than likely going to end your career as an ATC with the FAA. A pilot is likely to burn through several airlines and maybe even a few oil change places along the way to his last flight.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 26): Once you're hired as an ATC with the FAA you're more than likely going to end your career as an ATC with the FAA.

What job security? A newbie can get fired now for not complying with the new dress code...seen it happen. So don't talk to me about job security. The ability to strike has everything to do with pay, we can't strike and therefore we have no option but to succumb to what the FAA thinks we're worth. I highly doubt ALPA would stand for something like this.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 27): I highly doubt ALPA would stand for something like this.

I'm certain they wouldn't! ATC job security is going away with each passing day, from the nonsense that is the dress code now, even on midshifts, to the supervisors being call front line managers.........what is a front line manager? Sort of sounds like the military to me on the front line, that in itself isn't a good way to approach a workforce in my opinion.

I'll stop now, but those raises you get when you get checked out as some on here have talked about sure won't be like those raises given out years ago.

What scares me the most is I've been going to school for 4 years to do this job. The internship I completed over summer only emphasizes how exciting, rewarding, and challenging this field can be. The skill, talent, and humor controllers posses is nothing shy of brilliant.

However I also saw first hand the politics involved and it scares me. It is a huge distraction taking all the satisfaction and enjoyment away.

What else does a person with an ATC degree do besides joining those cockroaches at the FAA?

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 27): A newbie can get fired now for not complying with the new dress code...seen it happen

Since when did ATC get dress codes ? I made a trip to Houston Center a year ago and it was free dress code ? what is the dress now ?

Dress code came in with the new contract. Not exactly sure what it is though.

Dinker

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 27): A newbie can get fired now for not complying with the new dress code...seen it happen

I too have a dress code even though I am midnights I feel it is a small price to pay for a good salary and job security which no one seems to have anymore.

Quoting Dinker225 (Reply 31): Dress code came in with the new contract. Not exactly sure what it is though.

It's called "business casual"! No denim, no canvas shoes, and such...I have no problem with it, just how it is being implemented and enforced, along with the penalties if you cross that line!
The midshift is a bit nuts though to not be able to wear shorts because it may "erode public confidence"! OH MY, dark room or way up in a tower not even connected to a terminal building, who will see the controllers unless they line up outside the gate as shifts change and stop those who are leaving asking to see if we should have confidence in them!

Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 30): Since when did ATC get dress codes ?

September 3rd, with the new "contract". I put it in quotations because a contract is supposed to be voted on my the members of the union...this one never was...it's FAA imposed.

Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 30): what is the dress now ?

Yep, business casual...slacks, dockers, collared polo shirts.

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 32): I too have a dress code even though I am midnights I feel it is a small price to pay for a good salary and job security which no one seems to have anymore.

Yeah, it is sure a shock to the new guys who have to buy business casual attire with their great pay.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 34): Yeah, it is sure a shock to the new guys who have to buy business casual attire with their great pay.

I would support a "clothing allowance" for those hired at the new pay scales.....oh yeah that would go over quite well I'm sure.

The whole dress code is farce to begin with, since we work in dark rooms and control towers and are not seen by the flying public during the course of our duties. However, controllers are not required to abide by the dress code on mid shifts. Those of you that are need to to talk to your reps immediately!

Quoting N2111J (Reply 36): However, controllers are not required to abide by the dress code on mid shifts.

This is true, although some facilities had differing opinions on this initially.

I know this is kinda off topic, but whats a mid-shift and why would it be any different from a normal shift for ATC?

Thanks!
ATCme  

Quoting ATCme (Reply 38): I know this is kinda off topic, but whats a mid-shift and why would it be any different from a normal shift for ATC?

A mid is generally say 10pm to 6am, or flex shifts like 12am to 8am/ 11pm to 7am. A normal shift is like 6am to 2pm, then you have flex's for those. Say like 11am to 7pm. Depends on what the facility offers.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 39): A mid is generally say 10pm to 6am, or flex shifts like 12am to 8am/ 11pm to 7am. A normal shift is like 6am to 2pm, then you have flex's for those. Say like 11am to 7pm. Depends on what the facility offers.

So many numbers! I'm confused, it is 12:20AM here so I'm just really tired. Thanks for the info and I'll read it tomorrow and hope it makes more sense. LOL

ATCme  

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 4): Does $31,700/annual sound like good money? I don't think so...sounds like what a school teacher makes for 9 months of 8-5 work.

Since when does a teacher only work 8-5? Must be available before and after class, grading papers on ones own time, taking continuing education classes on ones own time, must be availble for evening duties at school events, etc. $31,700 is lousy starting pay for teachers.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 41): Since when does a teacher only work 8-5?

You're right, sometimes it's 7-3. And let's not forget that teachers get that nice little 3 month summer vacation and have virtually no dress code.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 37): although some facilities had differing opinions on this initially.

And some even called up the food chain (nice work) to get the "official ruling" so they wouldn't get in deep weeds if some hq folks show up on the mid, yeah right!

My motto, far better to seek forgiveness than to have asked permission!

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 42): You're right, sometimes it's 7-3. And let's not forget that teachers get that nice little 3 month summer vacation and have virtually no dress code.

C'mon guys please  

Let's not compare teachers with ATC. Sure ATC is responsible for the lives of many people, no question, and teachers are responsible for the education of our children...that's real unimportant right, and worth 31K/yr I guess ??

The 'worth' of a job isn't simply how stressful it is, or how many lives you're responsible for.

...and what the heck does dress code have to do with salary?? They deserve less because they can wear denims??

...and they have 3 months vacation...OK, so that makes 31K equal to a 41K salary (now that's huge!) ....let's get things into perspective here.

Jimbo

[Edited 2006-10-16 18:25:01]

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 44): Let's not compare teachers with ATC. Sure ATC is responsible for the lives of many people, no question, and teachers are responsible for the education of our children...that's real unimportant right, and worth 31K/yr I guess ??

You're right, let's not argue over this...but then you get a jab in? Take your own medicine Jimbo.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 45): You're right, let's not argue over this...but then you get a jab in? Take your own medicine Jimbo.

Oh, I'm taking it. I didn't start the comparison.

I totally agree that ATC folks should be treatly fairly, and paid according to their responsibilities, and that's not the way it's going. I'm on your side there, all the way. It's just you don't need to compare your job with others to make the point...teachers or any other profession. Argue your point based upon your skills and responsibilities alone, and you might get a little more respect  


Jimbo

It isn't only new hires that are taking it in the shorts, it is anyone who desires to move from their current job title that could take it in the shorts as well.

The entire issue is simple for me.......I don't one bit like the way this (contract/lack of) was handled at the FAA/NATCA upper level. The differences in the things on Aug 2, 1981 and on Sept 3, 2006 are what???

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 46): Argue your point based upon your skills and responsibilities alone, and you might get a little more respect

Now boys