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Topic: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-22 04:43:11 and read 5356 times.

how come US doesn't have any intrest in Asian routes. I know they have an alliance with UA, but why wouldn't they wan to have their own. I know the A330 isn't capable of that trip but they could use other planes that have been stored or buy some especially since they're not in ch. 11 anymore

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-22 04:49:31 and read 5351 times.

US needs their 10 A332s first, and those are scheduled for delivery beginning in 2009. The A332 can open up routes like PHX-LGW and PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.) But that's a few years down the road yet.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-10-22 05:45:00 and read 5297 times.

I still think that Asia will happen out of PHL before PHX... Much larger O&D, as well as regional feed. It would be nice to see them [PHL] land All Nippon Airways or SQ, or both... then they could start something along the lines of a Star Alliance hub, which would be rather neat at PHL... Yet... where's the room for this?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-22 05:52:53 and read 5286 times.

why does it take so long for them to get their a332's

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-22 05:56:23 and read 5281 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
I still think that Asia will happen out of PHL before PHX...

I don't think so. Flying out of PHL to Tokyo represents a huge backhaul for most people - who's going to fly STL-PHL-NRT? They'll have far more feed possibilities going westbound through PHX.

PHX is not exactly chopped liver when it comes to O&D, either.

[Edited 2006-10-22 06:05:26]

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-10-22 06:06:48 and read 5261 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4):
who's going to fly STL-PHL-NRT?

Well true, they could either fly US from STL-PHX-NRT, or AA from STL-ORD-NRT or wherever AA flies over in Asia. I am sure they fly to NRT, don't they?

But, coming back to PHL, what about people flying up from the south? How about ATL-PHL-NRT or MCO or CLT, RDU, DCA? And how about some folks from the near west, like PIT? As PIT surely as heck won't support any N/S Asia service...

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: SJUSXM
Posted 2006-10-22 06:13:41 and read 5246 times.

PHL has a brand new international terminal

it sits almost empty in the morning and early afternoon until US's european bank comes in. Most flights on the east coast to asia leave around noon so if US, or any other Asian carrier wanted to start a flight im sure there would be space for them.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-22 06:18:07 and read 5242 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
But, coming back to PHL, what about people flying up from the south? How about ATL-PHL-NRT or MCO or CLT, RDU, DCA?

All those cities have non-stop US service to Phoenix which could connect to a PHX-NRT flight. A DCA-PHX-NRT itinerary is reasonably competitive, time and distance-wise, because the connecting flight is going in the right direction.

But nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to fly, say, ABQ-PHX-PHL-NRT. The itinerary goes 2,500 miles in the wrong direction, and requires a double-connect to boot! Which is the other issue with PHL - there are many, many fewer PHL-West spokes than PHX-East spokes.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Warreng24
Posted 2006-10-22 17:41:31 and read 5095 times.

Before they start Asia from PHL, they need to fix the baggage situation at PHL first.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: AirportPlan
Posted 2006-10-22 17:51:44 and read 5079 times.

US does not have the equipment, rights nor the slots (at NRT)to fly from PHX-NRT so this will not happen anytime soon. I could potentially take them years just to obtain these if they were interested in doing so.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2006-10-22 18:06:14 and read 5052 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4):
PHX is not exactly chopped liver when it comes to O&D, either.

Do you have the numbers?

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 7):
A DCA-PHX-NRT itinerary is reasonably competitive, time and distance-wise, because the connecting flight is going in the right direction.

Since PHX is not on the way between DCA-NRT, it is not competitive with say DCA-DTW-NRT or DCA-ORD-NRT. It is over 900 miles farther!!

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-22 21:15:04 and read 4959 times.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
Do you have the numbers?

Why yes, I do. PHX is a bigger total O&D market than Philadelphia. 20.8 million to 13.4 million. However, US West has a smaller O&D share of PHX because of Southwest's strong presence.

Annual O&D for each respective hub carrier in 2004:
1 PHL (Philadelphia, PA) 6,527,660
2 PHX (Phoenix, AZ) 5,545,080

Those aren't chopped liver numbers by any means.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
Since PHX is not on the way between DCA-NRT, it is not competitive with say DCA-DTW-NRT or DCA-ORD-NRT. It is over 900 miles farther!!

900 miles in the right direction is substantially more competitive than 2,500 miles in the wrong direction with double-connections required from all but eight cities west of the Rockies. (LAS, PDX, SFO, PHX, SEA, LAX and SAN are the only places with nonstop service to PHL or CLT.)

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2006-10-22 21:24:34 and read 4947 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 11):
Annual O&D for each respective hub carrier in 2004:
1 PHL (Philadelphia, PA) 6,527,660
2 PHX (Phoenix, AZ) 5,545,080

Those aren't chopped liver numbers by any means

How about the O&D PHX-NRT vs PHL-NRT which is what we were comparing.

DCA-PHX-NRT does not seem competitive to me with 900 extra miles to fly compared with existing connecting flights.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-22 21:46:02 and read 4919 times.

I'm not arguing that DCA-PHX-NRT is supremely competitive. I'm arguing that as a connecting route, it is more competitive than forcing US West customers to backhaul all the way to PHL to get to Asia.

Where's UA's major Asian gateway, ORD or SFO? I rest my case.

The easiest way to solve this problem would be to launch PHX and PHL service to Tokyo simultaneously  Wink

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Supa7e7
Posted 2006-10-22 22:17:04 and read 4892 times.

Look, going to Asia is pretty much straight north from most of the USA. That's why PHL would be rather good from the entire East Coast, particularly from Florida, RDU, DCA, etc.

PHX is in a bad location for Asian routes. No realistic expectation of California traffic. You've got Vegas, Texas (already served), Albuquerque and Tuscon. Nowhere else is well served from Phoenix, certainly not the East Coast. PHX may get an NRT flight someday but mainly for locals. It's pretty much the worst spot in the country for an Asian hub, far worse than ORD or DTW for example. And here's the kicker, LAX and SFO do a great job with PHX demand to Asia already.

But PHX is a great location for Hawaii, Tahiti or even SYD. Their Hawaii connections DCA-PHX-KOA for example are great.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Ca2ohHP
Posted 2006-10-22 23:17:48 and read 4831 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 3):
why does it take so long for them to get their a332's

Good question. I really wish we would move up the order.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-10-22 23:35:21 and read 4810 times.

NRT isn't a good option for US due to the fact that getting slots there is just not likely anytime soon. PEK and PVG are much beter, more likely asian destinations.

US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range, the A330-200 will have 6,750nm of range - only 250 more, so any asian routes they would do with A332, they could do now with 762ER.

PHL-PEK: 5,977nm
PHL-PVG: 6,452nm (that's stretching it)
PHX-PEK: 5,648nm - assuming its not a hot day, no problems
PHX-PVG: 5,887nm

So really, PHL isn't much further than PHX, and doesn't have the weather issues, moreover, anything they'll be able to do with the A332s, they can run now with 762ERs. Also, China makes a better destination for them, since slots into NRT won't happen, and KIX has been problematic for US airlines. ICN might be another option. HKG is just out of range.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 1):
PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.) But that's a few years down the road yet.

PHL makes more sense than PHX for a number of reasons. Firstly, It isn't really any further away from most asian destinations than PHX. Secondly, PHX has 115 degree summer days in which a 762ER or A332 would have trouble getting airborne with a full load of fuel and payload without weight restrictions. Plus, they'd need to get slots at NRT. Good luck.

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 15):
Good question. I really wish we would move up the order.

Now that US' finances are in order, that might be more realistic. Seeing as the 762s are still flying fine and recently were overhauled, I don't know that they are hurting so bad for the A332s capacity at the moment.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Gilesdavies
Posted 2006-10-22 23:38:45 and read 4812 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 1):
The A332 can open up routes like PHX-LGW and PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.)

Even though the A330-200 is a very capable aircraft.

PHL-NRT is beyond the reach of this type of aircraft and PHX-NRT is within the reach eastbound but westbound flying against the winds will stretch the A332's limits.

I don't think the A340 is even an aircraft US Airways would want to consider, but they would need to be looking towards this kind of aircraft to fly to Asia. Maybe they could acquire a few A343's from AC as a stop gap until the A350 XWB arrive in 6yrs!

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00006339.jpg

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 00:09:51 and read 4764 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range, the A330-200 will have 6,750nm of range - only 250 more, so any asian routes they would do with A332, they could do now with 762ER.

Wrong. US Airways' 762ERs simply do not have that sort of range. Remember, they were intended for an airline focusing exclusively on transatlantic and transcontinental services. They do not have the gross weight or the engine performance to reach the range limit of the 762ER family.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
Seeing as the 762s are still flying fine and recently were overhauled.

The 762s have not been recently overhauled. They *will be* given an interior makeover next winter, with new lie-flat seats in the Envoy cabin and probably a new IFE system, at least up front.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
Maybe they could acquire a few A343's from AC as a stop gap until the A350 XWB arrive in 6yrs!

That will never happen. You'll see US refuse to take up the A350 order first and go in on some 787s instead. Remember, US is under absolutely zero obligation to accept the A350XWB - it's a 777-sized aircraft now, completely different from the plane they originally ordered.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-10-23 00:13:16 and read 4758 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4):
I don't think so. Flying out of PHL to Tokyo represents a huge backhaul for most people - who's going to fly STL-PHL-NRT? They'll have far more feed possibilities going westbound through PHX.



Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 11):
Why yes, I do. PHX is a bigger total O&D market than Philadelphia. 20.8 million to 13.4 million. However, US West has a smaller O&D share of PHX because of Southwest's strong presence.

Although your point is well taken that PHX may be a better NRT connector for western travelers than PHL, you neglect that AA, CO, UA and several Asian carriers all have non-stop service to NRT from the East Coast, thereby confirming that North/South and International feeds via the East Coast to Japan must be adequate. PHX would possibly have the same problem with Western feeds to Asia as PHL in the respect that the largest Japanese American population lives on the Pacific Coast and Hawaii. Why would they backtrack to PHX with so many non-stop flights to Japan from LAX, SFO, SJC, SEA and even PDX? Remember PHX-NRT was previously attempted with HP. It did very poorly and was quickly dropped. Unfortunately as you know the 332 has the potential restricted max range for PHL-KIX (for example) only and possibly even PHX-KIX only because of the summer heat - anything beyond needs to wait for the 350 or a replacement aircraft such as the 787-800. On the ? of O&D; Domestic O&D is possibly not an accurate measurement of viability when discussing international travel. The 2005 International O&D Numbers for PHL were 1.82M (O) and 1.83M (D); for PHX 871K (O) and 873K (D) - a significant difference of 2 million passengers. Further, most of the PHX O&D was for travel to/from Mexico. One would assume that US has already negotiated a fallback to the 350 delays with Airbus, a leasing company or ?, since they surely cannot wait for the 20 - 350XWB deliveries to start in 2014 - or later. A final point, dismissing all the problems with US domestic at PHL, a few Asian flights from there would give US a lot more stature as a global player - in my view, than one from PHX or elsewhere.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 00:13:48 and read 4759 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
I don't know that they are hurting so bad for the A332s capacity at the moment.

They are hurting *very bad* for the A332 capacity at the moment. The European expansion has stretched the US widebody fleet to its limit and beyond. Several more 757s will be ETOPSed this winter so more long-thin cities can be opened up. The lack of aircraft and gate space are the only things keeping US from making PHL into a dominant European gateway in competition with CO/EWR and DL/JFK.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 00:22:20 and read 4748 times.

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Remember PHX-NRT was previously attempted with HP. It did very poorly and was quickly dropped.

Again, that's not true.

The old HP Japan service was PHX-HNL-NGO and was a disaster, using old ex-KLM 747-200s. One-stop service over HNL in a very big aircraft to a very secondary Japanese destination on a very-fledgling and highly-leveraged LCC... yeah, that was pretty much destined to fail.

Now we're talking about the fifth-largest U.S. airline with a much stronger hub, the right-sized aircraft with the ability to go non-stop, alliance feed and billions of dollars in the bank. A completely different scenario.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-10-23 00:47:07 and read 4724 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 21):
The old HP Japan service was PHX-HNL-NGO and was a disaster, using old ex-KLM 747-200s. One-stop service over HNL in a very big aircraft to a very secondary Japanese destination on a very-fledgling and highly-leveraged LCC... yeah, that was pretty much destined to fail.

Seems like your're attempting to extract the miniscule portion of my post to make your point. Regardless, US would not be able to fly to anything but a secondary city in Japan - so that situation still applies. I do not believe the PHX location has the drawing power, when compared to PHL as I expressed earlier, to make Japan work especially for premium revenue - which would be mandatory for the relatively small size 332. I am not at all negative about US trying a PHX-Japan flight IF there is no better alternative.

[Edited 2006-10-23 00:59:57]

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 01:09:07 and read 4689 times.

how they can't get slots at HND or fly to a different destination such as ICN or KIX. They could do a PHL-HNL-NRT or HND or where ever they chose. why isn't that possible. US is the only "legacy" carrier that doesn't have routes in asia. It's time for themselves to establish some kind of route in asia.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 01:09:44 and read 4690 times.

and is that picture of the A343 real?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: AirportPlan
Posted 2006-10-23 01:33:29 and read 4654 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
NRT isn't a good option for US due to the fact that getting slots there is just not likely anytime soon. PEK and PVG are much beter, more likely asian destinations.


You need rights to fly to PEK or PVG. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA are all aleady in line for the next batch of China rights to be issued this year and two years from now. Realistacally the earliest that US could obtain China rights is at least 5 years. The main point is that US or any other carrier can't just decide one day to fly to NRT or China. It takes years to obtain the necessary permisson to operate these routes.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2006-10-23 01:41:28 and read 4749 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):

US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range, the A330-200 will have 6,750nm of range - only 250 more, so any asian routes they would do with A332, they could do now with 762ER.

PHL-PEK: 5,977nm
PHL-PVG: 6,452nm (that's stretching it)

Yeah it is a stretch since NW can't even fly an 747-400 fully loaded from DTW-PVG.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-10-23 01:53:04 and read 4716 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 24):
and is that picture of the A343 real?

I'd say it's about as real as a unicorn or Pegasus  Wink

I think someone used photoshop er something of the type on some random pic of an A343 to make it into a US livery... the old US livery at that... pre-HP merger...

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-10-23 01:59:15 and read 4707 times.

Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 25):
You need rights to fly to PEK or PVG. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA are all aleady in line for the next batch of China rights to be issued this year and two years from now. Realistacally the earliest that US could obtain China rights is at least 5 years. The main point is that US or any other carrier can't just decide one day to fly to NRT or China. It takes years to obtain the necessary permisson to operate these routes.

Regarding the China agreements. That could easily change if Chinese airlines could make money on their flights to the U.S. and thereby increase the number of cities and the frequencies of their existing flights. The problem is that every U.S. airline wants to fly to China, but few Chinese airlines make enough profit to want to fly extensively to the U.S.. US Airways, based on their known plans for aircraft procurement, could not fly to China until 2014 anyway. The best chance for direct access in the near term, is probably the UA/US code share agreement (if UA gets the route) and/or a *Alliance Chinese partner (e.g., Air China) flying into PHL with relatively seemless connections.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-10-23 02:03:18 and read 4689 times.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 26):
US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range,

If you don't mind my asking, where did you derive the 6600 nm from for "US" 767-200s?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-10-23 02:13:51 and read 4674 times.

Quoting Vega (Reply 29):
If you don't mind my asking, where did you derive the 6600 nm from for "US" 767-200s?

Yeah, I don't think those numbers are accurate either. The 763 has about 5700 or 5800nm range, and I believe that this bird, of all 767 aircraft, has the longest range. I think the range for the 762 is under 5,000nm, like 4,400 to 4,800nm. I THINK anyway...

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 02:33:07 and read 4650 times.

So why doesn't US chose HND or NRT they chose LGW over LHR

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: SFORunner
Posted 2006-10-23 02:34:09 and read 4646 times.

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
you neglect that AA, CO, UA and several Asian carriers all have non-stop service to NRT from the East Coast, thereby confirming that North/South and International feeds via the East Coast to Japan must be adequate.

Absolutely correct. US is going to have a tough time competing with its own Star Alliance partners, not to mention CO, AA, and others ....

UA: 2 x ORD - NRT, 1 x IAD - NRT (soon-to-be-formerly JFK - NRT)
NH: 1 x ORD - NRT, 1 x IAD - NRT, 1 x JFK - NRT

From a purely flying time perspective, PHL - NRT would only benefit PHL origin pax or "most" pax from airport that require a double connect to reach ORD or IAD (vs a single connect to PHL).

And by the time US takes delivery of their A332's, UA's premium cabin upgrade will have largely been complete.

Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 25):
You need rights to fly to PEK or PVG. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA are all aleady in line for the next batch of China rights to be issued this year and two years from now.

IMHO, China will sign an Open Skies treaty with the USA after the 2008 Olympic Games and after the Mainland carriers take delivery of their B787s and newer long-haul aircraft. The state-owned carriers right now aren't in a position to compete with US carriers from a capacity or product standpoint. IIRC, the Chinese carriers are not making full use of their inbound USA pax slots.

Plus, the 2008 Olympic Games are a license to print money: I'm sure the state-owned carriers will be making more than a bit of cash. Why share?

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 7):
A DCA-PHX-NRT itinerary is reasonably competitive, time and distance-wise, because the connecting flight is going in the right direction.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 12):
DCA-PHX-NRT does not seem competitive to me with 900 extra miles to fly compared with existing connecting flights.

As miserable as IAD is, I think most pax would prefer UA's about-to-start IAD - NRT or NH's pre-existing IAD - NRT.

In some ways, US' best chances to succeed in Asia lie with Star Alliance partner UA: in the absence of an Open Skies treaty, it may be some time before UA is allocated another China slot, given how many slots it currently holds.

US has a higher chance of winning a China slot, given that they do not posses any at the moment.

A US-metal flight out of a UA hub to Asia may be a means for both carriers to benefit. Especially, given the perceived higher O&D traffic from UA's hubs vs US's.

US could provide the "trojan horse" UA requires to code-share / operate SFO - CAN, for example.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 02:38:46 and read 4636 times.

how come everyone assumes US will choose NRT over HND or if they even want to fly to china. Look what they did in London they chose LGW over LHR. There is also ICN.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 02:41:26 and read 4632 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 31):
So why doesn't US chose HND or NRT they chose LGW over LHR

They didn't "choose" LGW over LHR. They fly into LGW because they're forced to by the anti-competitive Bermuda 2.

But that's a whole different thread  Wink

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: EVA777SEA
Posted 2006-10-23 02:42:46 and read 4627 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 30):
Yeah, I don't think those numbers are accurate either. The 763 has about 5700 or 5800nm range, and I believe that this bird, of all 767 aircraft, has the longest range. I think the range for the 762 is under 5,000nm, like 4,400 to 4,800nm. I THINK anyway...

According to Boeing the 762 has the greatest range out of the 3 767s.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: AirportPlan
Posted 2006-10-23 02:44:30 and read 4634 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 33):
Look what they did in London they chose LGW over LHR.

US is not allowed to fly to LHR. AA and UA are the only U.S. carriers allowed to fly to LHR. CO, DL, NW and US can not fly into LHR.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 02:46:34 and read 4622 times.

oh i see now, but how come they can't fly into HND then?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 02:53:14 and read 4605 times.

what US should do if they can do it is apply for the a china route and code share the flight with UA until they get their new A332's

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2006-10-23 03:26:05 and read 4578 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 37):
oh i see now, but how come they can't fly into HND then?

Because you can't fly US-HND.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Lu
Posted 2006-10-23 03:41:39 and read 4508 times.

I know China is a big market for US airliners.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 04:07:41 and read 4348 times.

Quote:
Because you can't fly US-HND.

Why?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2006-10-23 04:28:53 and read 4249 times.

I believe the US 767's have a 5500-5700 mile range. In order to get 6700miles, you need to upgrade the GE engines, and add fuel capacity.

MCOflyer

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Aero0729
Posted 2006-10-23 04:45:24 and read 4154 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4):
PHX is not exactly chopped liver when it comes to O&D, either

I agree, I always thought of the west coast US as Mini-China, even PHX has rowing number of Asian visitors. It is a HUGE leisure market and a continually growing business market.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Boeing 747-311
Posted 2006-10-23 04:53:13 and read 4124 times.

one thing that i noticed that you guys didnt mention, is that is there a market for asian routes? no foreign carrier has decided that it is a lucrative enough route to fly it (PHX and PHL), so is there a market? there must be a market to London from PHX though as BA flies a 744 to LHR daily!

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 04:57:18 and read 4092 times.

i think US could benifit from any asian route, but im still wondering why you cant fly to HND on us airline

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Treebeard787
Posted 2006-10-23 05:02:06 and read 4080 times.

Quoting Boeing 747-311 (Reply 44):

It's actually 6 times a week, BA288/289 does not operate on wed.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Centrair
Posted 2006-10-23 05:08:49 and read 4070 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 31):
So why doesn't US chose HND or NRT they chose LGW over LHR

Not an option. HND is not like LGW. HND is mostly domestic, regional international and international charter flights. NRT is the only airport in Tokyo that is currently allowed to support regularly scheduled long-haul international flights. If HND was allowed to support long-haul international flights, I think many airlines would be lining up to fly there.

1) 15 minutes to Shinjuku and 20 minutes to Shinagawa
2) more runways and not as slot restricted

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 21):
The old HP Japan service was PHX-HNL-NGO and was a disaster, using old ex-KLM 747-200s. One-stop service over HNL in a very big aircraft to a very secondary Japanese destination on a very-fledgling and highly-leveraged LCC... yeah, that was pretty much destined to fail.

At the time NGO was a very very very secondary city. But I believe HP was the first US carrier to serve it. I believe they started before DL with L-1011 (PDX) and NW with DC-10 (HNL). Just not the best plan at the time. If they had been able to get into NRT or even Osaka (at the time was only ITM) they would have done better.

Today NGO is booming and attracting many carriers due to increased business and one of the top international terminals in the world.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 21):
Now we're talking about the fifth-largest U.S. airline with a much stronger hub, the right-sized aircraft with the ability to go non-stop, alliance feed and billions of dollars in the bank. A completely different scenario.

If US had the right aircraft and did the service from the right city to the right destinations, they could do quite well. Japan is fracturing. There will be fewer and fewer 747s flying trans-pac from Japan simply because airlines are launching NGO, KIX and could start CTS or FUK. These are places that need something of a 767/A330/787 to 772/A350XWBZASD sized aircraft.

Personally PHL or even LAS would be good.
PHL can be an alternate to other international airports in the region like BWI or EWR. It can also pull in traffic from surrounding states, New England and the south.

LAS could provide a destination, transfer and be an alternate for many western states. This might not be as good as PHL though it might be better than PHX.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 05:16:47 and read 4050 times.

thank you  Smile but why doesn't US get some planes lying around the dessert or take a few out of storage until the get their 332's, this is what US is lacking in serivce an asian route they need to step up their game. They could even use the ex-HP 742's if they wanted. This is a good time for US to start an asian route because they are not in bankruptcy like NW or DL and i think UA. So it would only strengthen the company. They need an asian route end of story.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 05:26:26 and read 4036 times.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 47):
LAS could provide a destination, transfer and be an alternate for many western states. This might not be as good as PHL though it might be better than PHX.

LAS would not be a very good option for several reasons. One, it doesn't have nearly as much feed as PHX; two, yields would be substantially lower; three, the international terminal is completely separated from the US Airways domestic terminal, leading to very inconvenient transfers and connections.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2006-10-23 06:01:13 and read 4006 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 48):
They need an asian route end of story.

No they don't. Hence, the current situation, which is codesharing with NH/UA.
Aircrafts that can do PHL-NRT are A343/A345/A346, 742, 744, 747SP, 772ER, 773ER or MD11. Of these aircraft types, a handful of high gross weight ex-NW 742s are about it for immediately availability (with a lot of hanger time to boot). There maybe a few MD-11s lying around but I believe most have been bought up by UPS or FedEx awaiting conversion.
If US is about to venture and order 777s or A340s, by any means they can but they have enough debt and no bank or lender, in their right mind, is going to go forward with such a wild-ass dream, right now.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Centrair
Posted 2006-10-23 06:24:17 and read 3988 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 48):
ey could even use the ex-HP 742's if they wanted.

Kind of difficult.

N531AW (cn 19922/96)
Flew for KLM then HP
Broken up at IGM in 1996

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N533AW (cn 19924/138)
Flew for KLM then HP
Broken up at MHV in 1994

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Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 06:33:31 and read 3972 times.

there has to be some a/c hanging around that they can use there are probobly plenty in the desert or even the 2 343's boeing was selling

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 06:38:40 and read 3978 times.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 50):
If US is about to venture and order 777s or A340s, by any means they can but they have enough debt and no bank or lender, in their right mind, is going to go forward with such a wild-ass dream, right now.

Actually, that's wrong. US has a couple billion dollars in available cash. They're in one of the strongest financial positions of any US carrier. Either Airbus or Boeing would love to take their orders right now.

But they're not going to go out and blow that cash on fuel-guzzling A340s or on way-too-big 777s.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-10-23 06:43:23 and read 3972 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 1):
The A332 can open up routes like PHX-LGW

Which would piss off BA to no end since the route would likely have to leave Heathrow

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 11):
PHX is a bigger total O&D market than Philadelphia. 20.8 million to 13.4 million.

That includes a massive amount of domestic and Canadian transborder O&D who winter in Phoenix. That really isn't a clear indicator of the O&D that actually matters in an economic sense.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range,

Nope. They are not full gross weight models

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 30):
I think the range for the 762 is under 5,000nm, like 4,400 to 4,800nm. I THINK anyway...

You are thinking of the 762A. The max range for the 762ER is 6600nm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 42):
In order to get 6700miles, you need to upgrade the GE engines, and add fuel capacity

The 6600nm 762ER can be had with GE or PW engines. El Al's PW4060 powered 762ERs have 6600nm range.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2006-10-23 08:01:52 and read 3914 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 30):

Yeah, I don't think those numbers are accurate either. The 763 has about 5700 or 5800nm range, and I believe that this bird, of all 767 aircraft, has the longest range. I think the range for the 762 is under 5,000nm, like 4,400 to 4,800nm. I THINK anyway...

The 767-200 ER has the longest range of the 767 family at 6,600 nm, the 767-400ER has somewhere around 5,450 nm and the 767-300 ER is somewhere in between. Apparently however, US Airways 767s are not fully certified to MTOW for max range, or something to that effect (from what I've gathered on this forum).

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 35):
According to Boeing the 762 has the greatest range out of the 3 767s.

In terms of 'ER' models, it sure does.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-10-23 08:23:20 and read 3904 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 55):
the 767-400ER has somewhere around 5,450 nm and the 767-300 ER is somewhere in between.

5,650 and 6,105 respectively.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2006-10-23 13:33:31 and read 3830 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 53):
Actually, that's wrong. US has a couple billion dollars in available cash. They're in one of the strongest financial positions of any US carrier. Either Airbus or Boeing would love to take their orders right now

Isn't most of their available cash borrowed?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: SparkingWave
Posted 2006-10-23 14:45:41 and read 3802 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 13):
Where's UA's major Asian gateway, ORD or SFO? I rest my case

No you can't rest your case... UA is also beginning to fly to Asia from IAD.

US can't get flights to Asia, because they would never stand up to the competition of other airlines already have previous slots, experience flying long-haul to Asia, who can provide the feed, and lobby more support in Washington.

PHX and PHL to Asia? You gotta be kidding. It might happen sometime, after US gets its finances in order, and if the Boeing 787 ever shows up in the US fleet.

SparkingWave ~~~

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Naritaflyer
Posted 2006-10-23 14:50:00 and read 3797 times.

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 6):
it sits almost empty in the morning and early afternoon until US's european bank comes in. Most flights on the east coast to asia leave around noon so if US, or any other Asian carrier wanted to start a flight im sure there would be space for them.

The availability of space is never a factor when choosing a destination. No space at Narita and yet no shortage of airline clamoring to fly there. Same with Heathrow and so on. Availability of traffic is the main consideration and by your own admission there is no one there in the early afternoon. So no traffic, no airline service. There are better conections elsewhere.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2006-10-23 15:27:11 and read 3771 times.

If PHX heat is an issue, a red-eye US B767-200 PHX-NGO (arr NGO around 0500h w/arr PHX 0500h) wouldn't work?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: PEK18R36L
Posted 2006-10-23 17:36:54 and read 3703 times.

Quoting Vega (Reply 22):
Regardless, US would not be able to fly to anything but a secondary city in Japan - so that situation still applies.

The capacity situation at NRT will change when they extend 16L/34R to its full length and straighten the warped taxiway (apparently only one more holdout farmer to deal with). IIRC this change should add some slots as well, so US may not be completely hopeless - although the competition for those slots...

Quoting Vega (Reply 28):
The problem is that every U.S. airline wants to fly to China, but few Chinese airlines make enough profit to want to fly extensively to the U.S.

IIRC, Chinese airlines are facing profit challenges because of their domestic routes (fares are held artificially low) and sheer capacity. Remember, please - the current fleets of China's 5 largest airlines added together would make one large U.S. carrier.

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 32):
The state-owned carriers right now aren't in a position to compete with US carriers from a capacity or product standpoint. IIRC, the Chinese carriers are not making full use of their inbound USA pax slots.

Absolutely, Runner. That said, planes are on the way and the product (at AC at least) is being upgraded quickly. The inflight is already equal to to - and in many cases better than - what you would expect on a large US carrier.

Quoting Boeing 747-311 (Reply 44):
one thing that i noticed that you guys didnt mention, is that is there a market for asian routes? no foreign carrier has decided that it is a lucrative enough route to fly it (PHX and PHL), so is there a market?

Not today. But put the 787-8 in service, and city pairs like those begin to look economical.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 47):
Not an option. HND is not like LGW. HND is mostly domestic, regional international and international charter flights. NRT is the only airport in Tokyo that is currently allowed to support regularly scheduled long-haul international flights. If HND was allowed to support long-haul international flights, I think many airlines would be lining up to fly there. 1) 15 minutes to Shinjuku and 20 minutes to Shinagawa2) more runways and not as slot restricted

HND would probably need a fourth runway and a real (as opposed to "charter") international terminal simply to handle the demand for regional international service (HKG/PVG/PEK/ICN/TPE). They're in planning stages for the terminal, the politicians are taking stands for the former, and the prime ministers of China and Japan are talking about charters from SHA to compliment the Gimpo-Haneda routes.

More international at HND is a given. Long-range international is questionable. I just wish there were better links between the two airports.

David

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-10-23 18:45:56 and read 3644 times.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 57):
Isn't most of their available cash borrowed?

In a word, no.

From the most recent LCC 10-Q:

As of June 30, 2006, US Airways Group’s cash, cash equivalents, short-term investments and restricted cash were $3.21 billion, of which $2.22 billion was unrestricted. Net cash provided by operating activities for the first six months of 2006 was $675 million. This compares to net cash provided by operating activities of $224 million for the first six months of 2005. The primary factor in the year-over-year increase in net cash provided by operating activities of $451 million was the inclusion of $494 million of cash provided from operations from US Airways.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Warreng24
Posted 2006-10-23 19:32:45 and read 3598 times.

For added capacity, how would a 764ER stack up as an addition to US's fleet?

1) Not as big as a 777.
2) Doesn't suck fuel like a A340.
3) Fleet commonality with the 762's in the fleet.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-23 23:06:51 and read 3494 times.

if PHL is to ar why don't they fly out of BOS since its a focus city it could open more flights and increase the international destinations. KA used to fly out of BOS, but stopped for some reason. Why does everybody assume that US would want to fly to NRT anyways, they could fly to a seconary destination in Japan until slots open.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: SFORunner
Posted 2006-10-23 23:54:30 and read 3453 times.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 63):
For added capacity, how would a 764ER stack up as an addition to US's fleet?

I would imagine by the time they would be able to get their hands on one, their pre-ordered A332s would start to arrive.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 00:01:31 and read 3443 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 64):
if PHL is to ar why don't they fly out of BOS since its a focus city it could open more flights and increase the international destinations. KA used to fly out of BOS, but stopped for some reason. Why does everybody assume that US would want to fly to NRT anyways, they could fly to a seconary destination in Japan until slots open.



i actuallt meant to say far at the beginning and instead of KA i mean Korean Air

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-10-24 00:03:35 and read 3442 times.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 57):
Isn't most of their available cash borrowed?

Not really, you are probably thinking of United. The HP/US merger put together a carrier that was profitable and in a pretty good cash position (HP) with one that had some access to equity (US).

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 60):
If PHX heat is an issue, a red-eye US B767-200 PHX-NGO (arr NGO around 0500h w/arr PHX 0500h) wouldn't work?

Why in the world would the flight go to NGO. The people at HP probably never want to hear the word "Nagoya" ever again, at least not until they start up NRT and KIX. Second, timing a flight that way would have to deal only with O&D and wouldn't likely draw as needed. Finally, and this has been said over and over, the US 762ERs do not have the range to make the flight

Quoting PEK18R36L (Reply 61):
IIRC this change should add some slots as well

It is entirely possible that the 787 will be able to make it off the existing runway and still have enough range.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 63):
For added capacity, how would a 764ER stack up as an addition to US's fleet?

It wouldn't. The aircraft doesn't have enough range to handle the kind of operations that US needs to expand, namely Asia and Transatlantics out of PHX and LAS.

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 65):
I would imagine by the time they would be able to get their hands on one, their pre-ordered A332s would start to arrive.

With how slow the 767 line is, they could likely get their hands on 764ERs rather quickly.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 01:04:58 and read 3390 times.

i think they should try to get a few 764ER's, but as i said before how come they don't trya BOS route to Asia especially since there are no other asian carriers out of BOS and it isn't as far and i also think they could try KIX before NRT to get a strong asian route. They could do a PHL-HNL (or another destination- NRT or KIX

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2006-10-24 01:11:19 and read 3382 times.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 63):
For added capacity, how would a 764ER stack up as an addition to US's fleet?



Quoting Walter747 (Reply 68):
i think they should try to get a few 764ER's

764s would be a disasterous addition.

They're the least capable 767 available, share actually little commonality with the rest of the 767 fleet, and what would be the point? They're less capable than the 333s in service and 332s on the way.

The only useful application for the 764 would be PHL-Europe, and its limited payload means only certain routes. Most of those already get 333 service.

I think part of the value of the 332 is it will allow some European flights at higher payload or further afield of PHL.

The plane could fly BOS-NRT, sure. But why? Back during the UA/US merger BOS was going to get NRT, but that was an established UA hub and I think UA would prefer US feed them here in the states rather than yonder.

NS

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 01:23:39 and read 3367 times.

well then what would be the appropriate plane for them to get to opperate an asian service for the time being and a BOS-NRT or KIX would be a good flight because it could establish a new hub in BOS seeing as it is already a focus city. It would establish a strong international gateway for US even if its a few flights. BOS is served by a lot of major US destinations includinh PHX.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2006-10-24 01:39:04 and read 3350 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 70):
It would establish a strong international gateway for US even if its a few flights.

A few flights isn't a strong international gateway, that's the problem. Boston is good for some feed from the Northeast. If US wanted to get into the BOS market they could do some European expansion from there and then, maybe, some Asian.

US needs to focus. They need to finish integrating, roll out some reliable markets in Europe, and get the 332s into the fleet.

THEN they can think about some Asian expansion.

NS

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 01:41:38 and read 3348 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 71):
A few flights isn't a strong international gateway, that's the problem. Boston is good for some feed from the Northeast. If US wanted to get into the BOS market they could do some European expansion from there and then, maybe, some Asian.

US needs to focus. They need to finish integrating, roll out some reliable markets in Europe, and get the 332s into the fleet.

THEN they can think about some Asian expansion.

NS

so after all this happens how long do you think it would be (if they decide to) before it starts or they announce it

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-10-24 01:48:50 and read 3334 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 68):
i think they should try to get a few 764ER's, but as i said before how come they don't trya BOS route to Asia especially since there are no other asian carriers out of BOS and it isn't as far and i also think they could try KIX before NRT to get a strong asian route

With what aircraft? The 764ERs you think they should fly would end up in the middle of the Pacific.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 69):
They're the least capable 767 available, share actually little commonality with the rest of the 767 fleet, and what would be the point?

I assume that Boeing could use similar flight deck software to the 737NG to emulate older 767s, especially considering that all 767s have glass cockpits anyway

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 69):
I think part of the value of the 332 is it will allow some European flights at higher payload or further afield of PHL.

Actually, I think the attraction is less out of PHL and more out of CLT now possibly PHX. Further, the introduction of the A332 could allow the 762ERs to be replaced on higher demand routes out of PHL and allow them to be reallocated to new routes out of CLT or even the restoration of limited PIT transatlantic traffic. Finally, the A332 would allow South America to be served by a right sized, right ranged aircraft.

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 02:26:48 and read 3293 times.

i was just browsing the database and i noticed there are a lot of 742's in storage at MHV and other places. could that a/c fit the route?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 02:29:36 and read 3292 times.

sorry i forgot to include this but, what about the ex-AC 744's they just retired?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: N1120A
Posted 2006-10-24 02:32:38 and read 3291 times.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 75):
sorry i forgot to include this but, what about the ex-AC 744's they just retired?

Those are all at other carriers and would fit in absolutely no way with the US fleet anyway.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 74):
i was just browsing the database and i noticed there are a lot of 742's in storage at MHV and other places. could that a/c fit the route?

Why in the world would they want to use an outdated, inefficient aircraft that is too large anyway for the routes they would be flying?

Topic: RE: US And Asians Routes
Username: Walter747
Posted 2006-10-24 02:35:41 and read 3281 times.

well i was just browsing


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