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Topic: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Niconet
Posted 2007-01-03 09:58:57 and read 4719 times.

Can someone tell how long do we have to wait for Aerolineas Argentinas to join a global alliance?

I´ve heard Skyteam was interested as well as in Avianca, but If Varig finally breaks... may be star alliance can have the chance to add them into their system.

Thank you. Greetings from Rome.

Topic: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Arcano
Posted 2007-01-03 14:18:02 and read 4569 times.

Quoting Niconet (Thread starter):
´ve heard Skyteam was interested as well as in Avianca

It was actually the opposite, AV was interested but not accepted.

I agree that AR has the size and relevance for joining an alliance, and since Star seems to accept any, why not?

Topic: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: ZRHnerd
Posted 2007-01-03 14:28:11 and read 4546 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 1):
and since Star seems to accept any, why not?

Oh yeh? Just because Star is the biggest global alliance they accept anybody?Have you ever read Star's acceptance policy? and even if an airline meets all requirements, it's far from certain to actually be accepted.

Do you have any substantional Source/Information or a good example to prove your claim?

Topic: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Gabo787
Posted 2007-01-03 15:07:12 and read 4491 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 1):
AV was interested but not accepted.

Can you please provide a source for this? I wasn't aware that AV applied to enter the alliance and was rejected.

Regards

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: AwysBSB
Posted 2007-01-03 15:51:11 and read 4457 times.

Quoting Niconet (Thread starter):
I´ve heard Skyteam was interested as well as in Avianca

In my opinion AR is very likely to join that alliance.

Quoting Niconet (Thread starter):
but If Varig finally breaks...

You may not be aware of RG situation... RG is just rapidly resuming operations and offering the best and most punctual air service of Brazil!

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: USADreamliner
Posted 2007-01-03 16:26:39 and read 4430 times.

I think first AR should solve its "differences" with IATA.
And then have a real plan, maybe get some help from Lufthansa Consulting.
AR needs a partner, for Latin American airlines ,like it or not, AA is the ideal one.
In Europe, AF or LH.

I think SkyTeam is the best choice, since they don't have any member from South America .

I adore Aerolineas, but most of the times I get the feeling that AR's slogan should be "Lo atamos con alambre".

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: AA1818
Posted 2007-01-03 19:17:01 and read 4347 times.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 4):
You may not be aware of RG situation... RG is just rapidly resuming operations and offering the best and most punctual air service of Brazil!

RG is out of Star so no matter what service they can now provide it still means that ONE WORLD is the ONLY alliance to have Latin American partnership within the alliance. Perhaps you can tell me better- what international ops has RG resumed??

AA1818

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Emptyarm
Posted 2007-01-03 20:30:23 and read 4294 times.

IMHO, AR should improve their performance and completely renew their fleet if they expect to join any alliance...

Anyway, Star Alliance is the most likely to accept AR. 70% of AR is in the hands of Interinvest, which belongs to Air Plus Comet, part of Marsans Group, whose chairman is Gonzalo Pascual, owner of the small Spanair stake that is not controlled by SK.
Easy, isn't it?
I think the links to Spanair, and the Spanair links to SK are too strong to allow AR join any other alliance.

Best Regards

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: PU752
Posted 2007-01-03 20:51:31 and read 4268 times.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 4):
You may not be aware of RG situation... RG is just rapidly resuming operations and offering the best and most punctual air service of Brazil!

quite right, flown them to BOG and CCS last month and it was excellent though!

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Pdpsol
Posted 2007-01-03 21:53:57 and read 4218 times.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 6):
Perhaps you can tell me better- what international ops has RG resumed??

RG is now serving CCS nonstop from GRU with the 763 and BOG via MAO from GRU with the 733, as well as multi-daily service to EZE and a daily to FRA on the M11.

RG is expected to ramp-up its international service by Q2 2007 to include MIA and other European destinations.

The 'new' RG is now owned by VARIGlog, which is in turn owned 80% by Brasilian investors and 20% by the US private investment fund, MatlinPatterson.

StarAlliance has yet to 'kick-out' RG, as far as I know and is, most likely, waiting to determine how quickly and how effectively RG can re-start its services and develop its network.

AR, on the other hand, is still waiting to access the local MERVAL stock market and obtain access to capital so it can compete with larger regional carriers with access to public capital, such as LA.

I do not believe AR will decide which alliance to join until its capital funding and corporate governance issues have been resolved. While AR and the government did reach an agreement to partially-liberalize cabotage fares in Argentina and increased the government's stake in AR, the carrier has yet to tap the capital markets. This resolution has kept everyone waiting for the past five years.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2007-01-03 22:59:41 and read 4180 times.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 9):
StarAlliance has yet to 'kick-out' RG, as far as I know and is, most likely, waiting to determine how quickly and how effectively RG can re-start its services and develop its network.

I think you will find that Star have already kicked them into touch as a result of their woes. Could be wrong but the relationship terminates this month IIRC.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: TR1
Posted 2007-01-04 04:26:34 and read 4096 times.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
I think first AR should solve its "differences" with IATA.

What differences does AR have with IATA?

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: CXA330300
Posted 2007-01-04 05:19:55 and read 4075 times.

Is it particularly necessary for AR to join one? I'm sure AR could manage well working with many airlines outside of one, as does Emirates, QR, and SN...

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2007-01-04 05:51:17 and read 4067 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 1):
It was actually the opposite, AV was interested but not accepted.

I am still waiting to get a source for this information...some users are just into the AV-bashing mania.

I hope AR joins an alliance soon. They could use some reorganization but the airline has a nice product, the only bad thing is the position of EZE.

The wisest choice for them would be STAR.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2007-01-04 14:45:07 and read 3999 times.

Quoting Emptyarm (Reply 7):
IMHO, AR should improve their performance and completely renew their fleet if they expect to join any alliance...

Why? Because AR is the biggest 732 operator in the world?  Yeah sure Give me a break, the plane is useful and is really cheap in leasing. Makes up for all the financial costs that are generated by 'more efficient and newer airplanes'.

AR is in the process of updating the fleet, because in 2010 - Stage 2 engines will not be allowed to fly anymore in Argentina. That's a bye bye to 732s and DC9s. MD80s are Stage 3.

The performance is due to the lack of metal. There are AR inspectors in India evaluating two AI A310s -GE powered- (seems AI is really eager to get them off their backs) to make MIA daily, and flying CCS, BOG, MEX and CUN with A310s - and if I recall correctly, PUJ was in the makings too. A 5th A340 is due sometime 2007, expected in June, an A340-300 msn 093 ex-BWIA.

Also, 5 A320s, IIRC, are expected for this year. And there are also talks for a 4th 744 and a 6th A340, probably another A340-300.

So, what the heck are you talking about updating the fleet?

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
I am still waiting to get a source for this information...some users are just into the AV-bashing mania.

 checkmark 

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
I hope AR joins an alliance soon. They could use some reorganization but the airline has a nice product, the only bad thing is the position of EZE.

Something AR can't change. What they can do, is start up a mini-hub, somewhere in Latinamerica, like CCS - now that we are friends with Hugo Chavez... LOL

Quoting TR1 (Reply 11):
What differences does AR have with IATA?

Money, they have been solved now. AR is back on the IATA board.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 9):
AR, on the other hand, is still waiting to access the local MERVAL stock market and obtain access to capital so it can compete with larger regional carriers with access to public capital, such as LA.

LA stocks trade in the NYSE and Santiago's IPSA. AR is simply looking at the BCBA (MERVAL - Mercado de Valores is only for the 24 biggest 'movers' in the BCBA). That, with the government onboard will be no problem. The results for the fiscal years in question - are said to be approved.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 9):
I do not believe AR will decide which alliance to join until its capital funding and corporate governance issues have been resolved.

They've been resolved and Ariel Basteiro, union-leader and National House of Representatives Member (Diputado) has been named as the Government's chairman in AR's board. Gladly, it's not Cirielli. I believe, this is to apeace the criticism flowing from some unions.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 9):
This resolution has kept everyone waiting for the past five years.

3 years, ever since Marsans took over.

Gastón - The MD11junkie

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: LVICS
Posted 2007-01-04 15:44:05 and read 3967 times.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
I adore Aerolineas, but most of the times I get the feeling that AR's slogan should be "Lo atamos con alambre".

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
The performance is due to the lack of metal.

If so, shouldn't they go for a more realistic schedule? Delays in the last months have been really awful. That doesn't come from my own experience only, but my colleagues' too. And a local newspaper says so (sorry, Spanish only):
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaci...nota.asp?nota_id=872521&origen=4ta
Of course I don't forget that Lan Argentina is a big player in the web site of La Nación, but the delays are there and they're a heavy burden.

Apart from that, and taking into account that I'm not in the airline industry -I just love flying, and that's it- I always have the feeling that AR isn't going anywhere, meaning that I don't feel they have a plan, a goal they're aiming at and going for it. I feel they try to do everything (Europe, USA, Oz, Latin America) but nothing is really well done. In the international market, except for Venezuela and maybe Uruguay, I don't think they offer as many frequencies as their competitors, and sometimes their schedules are a bit weird. This is not the result of a serious research, so I may be wrong. Am I? Does anyone share this feeling?  confused 

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Bongo
Posted 2007-01-04 16:24:48 and read 3943 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 1):
It was actually the opposite, AV was interested but not accepted.

Hey Arcano, where did you get that?

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Emptyarm
Posted 2007-01-04 16:59:12 and read 3926 times.

According to aifleets.net AR's fleet average age is 19 years...It is too much

A310 fleet age is 13.8 years
A340 fleet age is 11.7 years
B737 fleet age is 20.3 years, some of them entered in service in the early 70's
B747 fleet age is 19.7 years, LV-OEP was delivered in nov 1980 and cycles have been limited by Boeing due to a crack in fuselage; LV-MLR , is even older, delivered in nov 79...

I have seen really strong delays in MAD and plenty of incidences in the feeder flights operated by A7, to/from FCO, LGW, CDG, ZRH, MUC, etc...

Regards

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Pdpsol
Posted 2007-01-04 17:12:02 and read 3917 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
3 years, ever since Marsans took over.

Marsans SA has run AR since late 2001, five years.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2007-01-04 17:59:51 and read 3900 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 1):
It was actually the opposite, AV was interested but not accepted.

Well, I also had not heard anything in connection with this subject, but if this info is accurate, I would think that the reason is that CM is to join any day now as an associate member of SkyTeam and it might not make much sense to have both carriers on board.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
AR needs a partner, for Latin American airlines ,like it or not, AA is the ideal one.
In Europe, AF or LH.

I guess it is true that AA is the best option for AR if they want a partner in the U.S. The main reason is AA's MIA hub, I guess. However, I am not sure whether this would be really in the best interest of AR (remember how MX was very frustrated with its partnership with UA). On the other hand, LA might not want this to happen and could push for AA to enter into codeshare and mileage agreements with LANArgentina.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
to make MIA daily, and flying CCS, BOG, MEX and CUN with A310s

Well, EZE-MEX-CUN-EZE is an all-A310 route, but AR would be much better off sending a plane with better range to MEX so as to avoid the stop at CUN. I hope we will see an A332 from AR in MEX (when is Marsans receiving the A332's by the way?).

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2007-01-04 19:05:28 and read 3880 times.

Quoting Emptyarm (Reply 17):
I have seen really strong delays in MAD and plenty of incidences in the feeder flights operated by A7, to/from FCO, LGW, CDG, ZRH, MUC, etc...

A7 is a separate airline. Nothing to do with AR.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 18):
Marsans SA has run AR since late 2001, five years.

Sorry, somehow I must thought I was in 2004. I apologize.

Quoting Emptyarm (Reply 17):
According to aifleets.net AR's fleet average age is 19 years...It is too much

A310 fleet age is 13.8 years
A340 fleet age is 11.7 years
B737 fleet age is 20.3 years, some of them entered in service in the early 70's
B747 fleet age is 19.7 years, LV-OEP was delivered in nov 1980 and cycles have been limited by Boeing due to a crack in fuselage; LV-MLR , is even older, delivered in nov 79..

And your point is? How does this hurt an airline? Did any of those airplanes fall from the sky? Las chanchas will keep on flying till 2008. 19 years is too much? Did you even read my post why it's not convenient to go below this?

Three words for you: HIGH LEASING COST

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
Well, EZE-MEX-CUN-EZE is an all-A310 route, but AR would be much better off sending a plane with better range to MEX so as to avoid the stop at CUN.

Eddie, there's 2 A310s flying:

3x EZE-BOG
3x EZE-CCS
3x EZE-MEX-CUN-EZE
1x EZE-MIA

If one of the A310s happen to have a higher time in MX than expected, this would cripple the scheduling as the lack of HEAVY metal would show up. That's why the A310s are being looked at.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
(when is Marsans receiving the A332's by the way?).

2009 onwards.

Gastón - The MD11junkie

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Arcano
Posted 2007-01-05 02:34:13 and read 3810 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
Why? Because AR is the biggest 732 operator in the world?

Hola Gaston, are you certain about this? Airfleets shows 14 active 732, while LAN has 17 )probably counting the one for cargo)
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
reason is that CM is to join any day now as an associate member of SkyTeam and it might not make much sense to have both carriers on board.

I also agree CM is doing a great job and suits an alliance better than AV, unless AV grows in destinations and frequencies around the continent

[Edited 2007-01-05 02:35:11]

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2007-01-05 03:59:57 and read 3777 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 21):
Hola Gaston, are you certain about this? Airfleets shows 14 active 732, while LAN has 17 )probably counting the one for cargo)

Hola Arcano,

AR says 24 732s are being operated at the moment. I think 2 or 3 more have returned to service from MX.

http://www.aerolineas.com.ar/ar/index.asp?pais=ar&idi=es&secc=1&subs=3

BTW, Airfleets info is really BAD.

Gaston - The MD11junkie

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2007-01-05 04:08:55 and read 3768 times.

Quoting Emptyarm (Reply 17):
A310 fleet age is 13.8 years
A340 fleet age is 11.7 years
B737 fleet age is 20.3 years, some of them entered in service in the early 70's
B747 fleet age is 19.7 years, LV-OEP was delivered in nov 1980 and cycles have been limited by Boeing due to a crack in fuselage; LV-MLR , is even older, delivered in nov 79...

I don´t seem to understand wy an oldie fleet (which is being replaced and mantained nicely) could make an airline be turned away from an alliance...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 20):
Eddie, there's 2 A310s flying:

3x EZE-BOG
3x EZE-CCS
3x EZE-MEX-CUN-EZE
1x EZE-MIA

They really do need more A310s, at least 2 more. Hope the AI ones come soon.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
Well, I also had not heard anything in connection with this subject, but if this info is accurate, I would think that the reason is that CM is to join any day now as an associate member of SkyTeam and it might not make much sense to have both carriers on board.

Thank you, someone who looks at the situation with a cold head. If the thing really happened, it may have been for other reasons that are not the ones other users are trying to imply.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 21):
I also agree CM is doing a great job and suits an alliance better than AV, unless AV grows in destinations and frequencies around the continent

Destinations? I think AV has plenty. A couple in Europe would help and it would be awesome.

What they need to do is offe rmore flights to SCL and EZE, which will happen soon (at least in the case of BsAs)

Quoting Bongo (Reply 16):
Hey Arcano, where did you get that?

Some crap-teller started saying it in another thread and now he´s adopted it as his anthem....

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: Derico
Posted 2007-01-05 07:33:34 and read 3731 times.

AR has been in cryogenic mode for well over a year now.

It's the same with the entire argentine aviation system, which now I can state with relative certainty is one of the very few sectors (along with oil, but perhaps oil is not doing as bad!), that has seen absolutely no benefits from the much better economy. Only the tourism, so far.

But many internal routes (ex. COR, MDZ, BRC, etc) are a complete disaster with spotty service at best, AR has only slooowly going ahead with the fleet replacements that have been talked about for ages.

And lets remember the entire EZE fiasco. Total fallout between AA2000 and investors that were to pony up the bill for the 'brand new EZE'... and of course, no one has heard about the new international airport BUE needs desperately.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: USADreamliner
Posted 2007-01-06 07:34:29 and read 3635 times.

Quoting TR1 (Reply 11):
What differences does AR have with IATA?

This week in Latin America Nov. 29, 2006
Nov 29, 06 | 2:21 pm

By travelatlatinamerica.com
ARGENTINA
Aerolineas Argentinas makes arrangements to return to IATA clearing Representatives of the airline initiated the first arrangements with IATA in order to return to the clearing that allows to transfer passengers to other airlines and to take users from other companies that participate in the global system.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: AerorobNZ
Posted 2007-01-06 10:02:53 and read 3628 times.

Fix the mafia mentality that runs throughout AR, Walk over all the (very powerful) unions and you might have a chance. That ain't gonna happen any time soon IMO especially considering their 044 paper for ticketing is next best thing to worthless for interline ticketing agreements.

Topic: RE: When Will Aerolineas Argentinas Join An Alliance?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2007-01-06 16:58:38 and read 3561 times.

Update in the info, the A310s that AR techs are looking into VT-EVE and -EVF, both PW powered.

Information and correction, thanks to LVZXV

Gaston - The MD11junkie


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