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Topic: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: N1786b
Posted 2007-01-14 20:34:54 and read 11079 times.

Just hit the wire:

Fare use extract:


Airbus Market Share Slumped Last Year, FT Deutschland Reports

By Patrick Donahue

Jan. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS lost 5 percentage points of market share last year, to 40 percent, because of less demand for the A330/340 and production problems, Financial Times Deutschland reported, citing unidentified industry officials.

The net number of aircraft sold in 2006 dropped to 800 from 1,055 in 2005 as Airbus booked list-price orders worth $75.1 billion, the newspaper reported. Market share in terms of the number of units dropped last year to 43 percent from 52 percent, FTD reported. With 1,044 unit sales, U.S. rival Boeing Co. surpassed Airbus for the first time in five years, FTD said.

Toulouse, France-based Airbus will present the figures Jan. 16 in Paris, the newspaper said.



-------------------

I thought they were reporting the 17th.

- n1786b

[Edited 2007-01-14 20:43:10]

Topic: RE: FT De: AB Has 40% Market Share
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2007-01-14 20:42:02 and read 11051 times.

I thought this was going to be a thread about Air Berlin. I didn't realize Airbus was abbreviated AB by anyone.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: N1786b
Posted 2007-01-14 20:44:15 and read 11032 times.

Changed the subject line for you.

Sorry.

- n1786b

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Rpaillard
Posted 2007-01-14 20:55:31 and read 11004 times.

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
because of less demand for the A330/340 and production problems

Am I the only founding this statement misleading? The A340 had bad time against 777, but the A330 did pretty well. Production problem? For sure, but the biggest challenge for Airbus so far is not having a strong and consistent offer against the 787.

Regards,
Raphael

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Leelaw
Posted 2007-01-14 21:04:33 and read 10963 times.

From the Flight International Blog:

"Airbus and Boeing - it's that time of year and Airbus will hit 40%"

http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/fl...ional/archive/2007/01/10/6270.aspx

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-01-14 21:27:23 and read 10903 times.

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 3):
Am I the only founding this statement misleading? The A340 had bad time against 777, but the A330 did pretty well.

As Airbus and Airbus Cheerleaders like to point out, the A330/A340 is a single production line. In sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer  Wink

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Rpaillard
Posted 2007-01-14 21:42:37 and read 10854 times.

Well, whatever the "Cheerleaders" like to point, I still think it's a mistake. Maybe the A340 is toasted now, but Airbus lacks a killer in the twin widebody family. The best way to address a concern is to face it. Including for Cheerleaders Big grin

Regards,
Raphael

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: EvilForce
Posted 2007-01-14 21:49:14 and read 10821 times.

Congratulations to Boeing for a great year. Airbus also had a very nice year for sales as well. Both added substantially to their backorder of aircraft which means more jobs, more stability, and more money to fund R&D for better products. Win / Win for everyone. I would imagine 2007 will have a much tighter race ending in a 50/50 now that it seems Airbus has their 350 program moving forward.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-14 21:53:52 and read 10801 times.

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 6):
Well, whatever the "Cheerleaders" like to point, I still think it's a mistake. Maybe the A340 is toasted now, but Airbus lacks a killer in the twin widebody family. The best way to address a concern is to face it. Including for Cheerleaders

 checkmark 
As fond as I am of Airbus, I try not to be a bimbo cheerleader. I can admit that the A340 is moribund and that the WhaleJet was a (very cool) mistake. In my opinion, Airbus need to certify new engines for the A330 -- without all the other development work they had proposed in order to improve its range. Don't go for range; go for low cost and early availability. That would tide things over until the A350 arrives.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Revelation
Posted 2007-01-14 23:11:44 and read 10599 times.

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 6):
I still think it's a mistake. Maybe the A340 is toasted now, but Airbus lacks a killer in the twin widebody family.

No, it has a killer in the twin widebody family - the A330 killed the 767!  Smile

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-14 23:20:35 and read 10564 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
the A330 killed the 767!

The 767 won 10 orders in 2006.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: EvilForce
Posted 2007-01-14 23:35:24 and read 10524 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
The 767 won 10 orders in 2006.

Boeing is merely keeping that program on minimal life support until the military decides on it's tanker program.

For all intents and purposes it's dead for pax airframes.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-01-14 23:41:21 and read 10507 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
No, it has a killer in the twin widebody family - the A330 killed the 767!  Smile

At 342 sales (A332) to 264 (762/763/764), it's more like the A330 winged the 767 then killed it.  Wink

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 00:25:49 and read 10404 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
At 342 sales (A332) to 264 (762/763/764), it's more like the A330 winged the 767 then killed it.

Total 767 orders to date are 975, not 342.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-01-15 01:16:32 and read 10327 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
Total 767 orders to date are 975, not 342.

Should have noted I was referring to sales since the A332 recorded it's first sale (02/1996).  Smile

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2007-01-15 01:35:04 and read 10279 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):
A re-engined A330 would be a brilliant idea

What sort of engine re-work are you referring to? What sort of new engines could increase efficiency? Is this just A.netter's armchair discussion or is/has Airbus discussed a possible re-engined 330?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
I was referring to sales since the A332 recorded it's first sale (02/1996).

Back in the old days of airplane ordering, I think 342 airframes sold would be a solid showing. In the new age of buying 50 planes at a time (and selling almost 500 planes of a yet-to-be-built model), I guess 342 is not so great.

Still, I've said it many time on this site, the 767 is hands down the most comfortable plane to fly. Not too big, not too cramped feeling. Its a shame the airplane is falling out of fashion. Still, everyone who has one seems to be using it as much as he/she/it can.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-01-15 02:02:59 and read 10233 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 17):
What sort of engine re-work are you referring to? What sort of new engines could increase efficiency? Is this just A.netter's armchair discussion or is/has Airbus discussed a possible re-engined 330?

Both GE and RR were considering offering their 787 powerplants for the A330 family. GE, apparently, is still willing to do so. Not sure about RR.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 17):
Back in the old days of airplane ordering, I think 342 airframes sold would be a solid showing. In the new age of buying 50 planes at a time (and selling almost 500 planes of a yet-to-be-built model), I guess 342 is not so great.

It's not bad, but it is true that when you look at the 777 family, it has sold almost as many units (903) as the entire A330, A340 and A350 families combined (1095).

The A300 has been the most successful Airbus widebody to date, with 561 sales, but it has also been the model longest-offered for sale. And her sales, plus the A310s and the A332s combined (1165) are not too far ahead of the 767's total (975).

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 02:05:57 and read 10229 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 17):
What sort of engine re-work are you referring to? What sort of new engines could increase efficiency? Is this just A.netter's armchair discussion or is/has Airbus discussed a possible re-engined 330?

Airbus proposed updating the A330 with the engines for the 787 plus other changes designed to increase range, in an effort to compete head-to-head with the 787-8/9. I'm proposing only certification of the new engines to go after the mid-range market.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-15 04:39:12 and read 10076 times.

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
Airbus SAS lost 5 percentage points of market share last year, to 40 percent, because of less demand for the A330/340

That's very misleading. Less demand as compared to when? Airbus booked significantly more A330/340 orders in 2006 as compared to 2005.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):
The A330 is getting by, not selling spectacularly, but it is selling, the only thing working well at Airbus is the A320, and it did not have a good year against the 737.

The A330 was the second best selling widebody aircraft last year. Behind the 787 and way ahead of the 777.

The 737 has likely sold more units in 2006 than the A320, but compared to the difference in units sold in 2005 between both models, it is rather small.

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
The net number of aircraft sold in 2006 dropped to 800 from 1,055 in 2005 as Airbus booked list-price orders worth $75.1 billion, the newspaper reported. Market share in terms of the number of units dropped last year to 43 percent from 52 percent, FTD reported. With 1,044 unit sales, U.S. rival Boeing Co. surpassed Airbus for the first time in five years, FTD said.

The number of aircraft sold dropped 9% and market share (dollar value) dropped 5%. Looking forward to see the breakdown of these net 800 orders. Airbus had 611 net firm orders at the start of december. So about 189 orders have been added in december. At the start of december Airbus marketshare was estimated at 36% by Mr. Leahy. Despite strong widebody sales of Boeing in december (LH, KE, Jet), Airbus managed to increase their marketshare with more than 11% in december.

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
I thought they were reporting the 17th.

On the 16th according to the article you posted. Last year it was the 17th.


Airbus' december orders (please complete)

LH 7 A346
AerCap 20 A330
QF 8 A380, 4 A330
SQ 9 A380, 19 A330 (leased)
Gruppo Marsans 12 A330
Pegasus 6 A330, 2 A350XWB
SALE 20 A32S
Interjet 10 A32S
Silkair 11 A32S
Israir 2 A32S

Total 43 NB + 87 WB = 130 (roughly 59 unacounted for)

[Edited 2007-01-15 04:47:48]

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2007-01-15 04:49:39 and read 10060 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 20):
That's very misleading. Less demand as compared to when? Airbus booked significantly more A330/340 orders in 2006 as compared to 2005.

Compared to your competition.

You don't determine market share by comparing Airbus 2005 to Airbus 2006. You compare it to Boeing.

Boeing sold 237 777s and 787s last year, therefore there's less demand for Airbus.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-15 05:15:50 and read 10004 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 21):
Boeing sold 237 777s and 787s last year, therefore there's less demand for Airbus.

For your convinience, why not adding those 10 767s aswell.  Yeah sure

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 21):
Compared to your competition.

It is still waiting for the official breakdown of these 800 firm orders, but we can already see that Airbus sold atleast 50% more A330/340 models in 2006 (status quo for the A340). Therefore there was NO less demand. The decrease of market value can not be blamed on slagging A330/340 sales. The decrease of market value is because of the delayed industrial launch of the A350XWB, leading to significant less sales (about 1/6) of airbus' next generation widebody aircraft and because of the big volumes sales of the pricy 748F. If anything, the A330/340 line has limited the damage.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 05:24:44 and read 9979 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Therefore there was NO less demand.

Maybe, maybe not. We would have to know that prices have held in order to reach that conclusion.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-15 05:33:37 and read 10113 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
Maybe, maybe not. We would have to know that prices have held in order to reach that conclusion.

Airbus is planning to increase the A330 output by 2 units a month. Airbus had to delay the launch of the A330F due to high demand for the passenger version. 37!!! airlines were competing to get their hands on Austrian's A330s. A product in demand (A330) is certain to be less discounted. So, yes, we can reach the conclusion, that the demand for the A330 was bigger in 2006.

Anyone able to complete the list of 189 orders?

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 05:44:42 and read 10083 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
Airbus is planning to increase the A330 output by 2 units a month.

That is probably due in part to the cashflow crunch caused by the WhaleJet fiasco and the BAE payout.

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
Airbus had to delay the launch of the A330F due to high demand for the passenger version. 37!!! airlines were competing to get their hands on Austrian's A330s. A product in demand (A330) is certain to be less discounted.

There is no question that demand for A330s is strong.

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
So, yes, we can reach the conclusion, that the demand for the A330 was bigger in 2006.

No, we can't, because it may be the case that demand was even stronger in 2005. We don't know relative 2005 and 2006 prices. At least, I don't.

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
Anyone able to complete the list of 189 orders?

Patience, my friend. We're just hours away from an official announcement.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-15 05:55:13 and read 10068 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Patience, my friend. We're just hours away from an official announcement.

True but it's always nice to speculate a bit.

Here's more, to play with...

Boeing booked 212 orders in december, 59 WB. Airbus booked 189 orders in december, so far 87 WB (if the report is correct), but increased market value by 11%. I suspect that a nice part of these 59 orders are for WB's.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 06:03:02 and read 10052 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
I suspect that a nice part of these 59 orders are for WB's.

I hope so, but any order is a good order!

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2007-01-15 06:12:10 and read 10267 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
For your convinience, why not adding those 10 767s aswell.

Thanks for the reminder, Boeing sold 246 767, 777, and 787s last year.
That's why they have 60% of the market. Big grin

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
A product in demand (A330) is certain to be less discounted.

Not if it's part of a compensation package.  Silly

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Therefore there was NO less demand.

You're only fooling yourself.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-15 06:23:11 and read 10229 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 30):

Not if it's part of a compensation package.

 arrow 

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 30):
You're only fooling yourself.

Of the 110 A330/340 orders knwon so far, 9 A330s have possibly been ordered due to the delayed A380. Additionally SQ has decided to lease 19 A330s which might partially, pssibly from a far distance, have something to do with the delayed A380.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
but any order is a good order!

Absolutely. If they were to be all NB orders Airbus will have sold 658 A32S. Bringing the total numbers of A32S sold (including Air Asia's 50) to 4995!

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 07:13:40 and read 10139 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 30):
Not if it's part of a compensation package.

That's just a small part of the A330 orders. 19 for SQ and ???

Quoting Manni (Reply 31):
Bringing the total numbers of A32S sold (including Air Asia's 50) to 4995!

The 5000th member of the A320 family will surely be sold this year.  Smile I'm confident they'll reach 6000 eventually.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-01-15 07:22:02 and read 10086 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
The 5000th member of the A320 family will surely be sold this year. Smile I'm confident they'll reach 6000 eventually.

Speaking of which: with the 737 program resting at 6,800 orders at the end of 2006, Boeing will likely hit 7,000 orders by mid-2007.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: N328KF
Posted 2007-01-15 08:14:03 and read 9818 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 33):
Speaking of which: with the 737 program resting at 6,800 orders at the end of 2006, Boeing will likely hit 7,000 orders by mid-2007.

Only thing is -- I believe many of the 737 orders (eg. AA) are, for all intents and purposes, reserved Y1 slots that will never be filled as a 737.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2007-01-15 12:55:40 and read 8778 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 26):
That's why they have 60% of the market.

Which market are we comparing? Is it just Boeing and Airbus' market, or are we talking about the whole airplane market? If that is the case, Boeing can't have 60% because there are others around like Embraer and Bombardier.

Cheers!  wave 

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-01-15 13:09:02 and read 8738 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Speaking of which: with the 737 program resting at 6,800 orders at the end of 2006, Boeing will likely hit 7,000 orders by mid-2007.

In all fairness to Airbus, one can't count the rope-start 737s together with the 737NGs as they are not really in the same family. On the other hand, it's only fair for Airbus to count the A330, A340, and A350 as being in the same family.  duck 

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 31):
Which market are we comparing? Is it just Boeing and Airbus' market, or are we talking about the whole airplane market? If that is the case, Boeing can't have 60% because there are others around like Embraer and Bombardier.

It's the mainline market; 6 abreast and larger. It's not counting RJs.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2007-01-15 14:16:26 and read 8458 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
It's the mainline market; 6 abreast and larger. It's not counting RJs.

Okay, thanks for clearing up!

Cheers!  wave 

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2007-01-15 18:53:39 and read 7520 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
That's just a small part of the A330 orders. 19 for SQ and ???

It seems to have been offered to others. I guess we'll have to wait until January 17, to see who bought what.

Thai Airways still in talks over Airbus A380 delays.

Quote:
The airline said the most likely solution would be to receive compensation in the form of discounts on future orders of Airbus planes.

Apinan said previously that Airbus had proposed a discount for the purchase of A330s, an aircraft that suited Thai Airways expansion plans in the medium term.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/avi..._in_talks_over_Airbus_A380_delays/

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2007-01-16 02:12:25 and read 6997 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
In all fairness to Airbus, one can't count the rope-start 737s together with the 737NGs as they are not really in the same family. On the other hand, it's only fair for Airbus to count the A330, A340, and A350 as being in the same family.

In fairness to Boeing, I believe the rope-start 737's are considered by all governing agencies to be in the same family as the 737-NG's (I flew on an old 737 years ago, I was wondering what those guys on the ramp were doing). Even though the engines are different and there are changes to the wings, the basic structure is the same and more important, I believe the type certificate is still the same.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Manni
Posted 2007-01-16 03:48:57 and read 6921 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 34):
It seems to have been offered to others. I guess we'll have to wait until January 17, to see who bought what.

Thai Airways still in talks over Airbus A380 delays.

This has no effect on the 110 A330/340 orders placed in 2006, which are being discussed here.
Therefore you previous comment remains limited to possibly LH, QF and to a certain extend SQ.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2007-01-16 05:28:36 and read 6859 times.

Quoting Manni (Reply 36):
Therefore you previous comment remains limited to possibly LH, QF and to a certain extend SQ.

That's not very limited, is it?

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: Zeke
Posted 2007-01-16 06:59:36 and read 6824 times.

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 3):
Am I the only founding this statement misleading? The A340 had bad time against 777, but the A330 did pretty well. Production problem? For sure, but the biggest challenge for Airbus so far is not having a strong and consistent offer against the 787.

My german is not that good, I think something was lost in the translation http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/industrie/150444.html

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
Airbus proposed updating the A330 with the engines for the 787 plus other changes designed to increase range, in an effort to compete head-to-head with the 787-8/9. I'm proposing only certification of the new engines to go after the mid-range market.

I am sure they will look at that, the 747-8 engine would be attractive in terms of fan size and thrust, however I think some of the efficiency would be lost as it would not be operating at its design speed. I am also unsure if Boeing has exclusively locked that engine to the 747-8.

I think the fan on the Trent and GEnx for the 787/350 would be too big to fit on a 330, again it would not be operating at its design speed.

It is interesting to see the figures purported by the manufactures here, Boeing is claiming a significant improvement with the GEnx, Airbus is only seeing about 2% SFC improvement with the Trent XWB.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
That is probably due in part to the cashflow crunch caused by the A380 Superjumbo fiasco and the BAE payout.

Maybe it was for pure demand, 777 production increased as well for what I see to be similar reasons.

I suspect airbus will be announcing a 2006 turnover in the range of €20billion. I also expect the current backlog to be valued at $200-250 billion, which puts the development cost of the 350 and 380 and the BAe payout into perspective. Future 350 orders I will see be worth $200-250 billion alone over the next 20 years.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
The 5000th member of the A320 family will surely be sold this year. Smile I'm confident they'll reach 6000 eventually.

No doubt the narrow body market will remain strong, 70% of all future sales are thought to be going to narrow body aircraft.

I think another 10-20,000 aircraft in that class will be ordered in the next 20 years.

Topic: RE: FT De: Airbus Has 40% Market Share
Username: PanAm_DC10
Posted 2007-01-17 11:15:29 and read 6690 times.

As Airbus have now released their sales data for 2006 and a proper breakdown of their model sales is now known. Please continue the discussion, based on the facts, provided by both Airbus and Boeing, at the following thread.

Official: Airbus 2006 Order Results by Leelaw


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