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Topic: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Ualcsr
Posted 2007-01-30 04:19:36 and read 11675 times.

Here's the link...
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/40192.php

Can someone fill in the gaps here? I'm pretty certain that there are regulations about opening/serving liquor while on the ground, but I would have thought airspace was federally regulated and therefore, not subject to state liquor licensing.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-01-30 04:33:05 and read 11633 times.

Quoting Ualcsr (Thread starter):
Can someone fill in the gaps here? I'm pretty certain that there are regulations about opening/serving liquor while on the ground, but I would have thought airspace was federally regulated and therefore, not subject to state liquor licensing.

Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states and counties? Utah is a classic example of this practice. Also if you think New Mexico is bad for liquor control issues and taxation, take a look sometime at what neighboring Utah is like!

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: HPLASOps
Posted 2007-01-30 04:35:21 and read 11627 times.

Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ. I've never heard of such law, and according to the article, every other major carrier serving ABQ has one. We've been serving ABQ for at least 18 years, it seems like the only reason they care now is because some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?). I have no idea if other states have similar laws, and if this law was put into place recently, but my hunch says the governor of NM has a grudge against us for some reason.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Ualcsr
Posted 2007-01-30 04:37:42 and read 11606 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states and counties?

I wasn't familiar with this procedure. Are UA, AA, DL, etc., licensed in all 50 states? Thanks in advance.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Ualcsr
Posted 2007-01-30 04:44:18 and read 11545 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ.

It says..."They should not be selling alcohol while in New Mexico airspace", which I think would mean they can't sell alcohol while flying over New Mexico. (But can they serve it? Is there a "first class" exemption to the law because liquor's free up there?) Actually, I agree with you, another example of passing the buck. I can't understand how this one example would be US' fault but if other airlines have the license, why wouldn't US?

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Usair320
Posted 2007-01-30 04:47:05 and read 11529 times.

Wow....As an NM resident and having known MRS.Bapst herself(the d/d's wife)) This is at fault of MR .Bapst not US Airways. why dosent Mr. Richardson look at the obviouse. It could happen on AA, DL,F9, WN, UA, NW, YX any airline not just US.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Flyboy7974
Posted 2007-01-30 04:51:10 and read 11499 times.

this issue does come up once in a blue moon. Being HP elite, I use to fly their LAS night hub almost every week as I could get back home to PHX for the Prescott drive instead of having to overnight where I was working, and about 97-98 right HP was prohibited from serving preflight drinks for about a month because a police officer had witnessed a f/a serving a minor in first class. He viewed the serve and then carded the minor and then approached the f/a and her as well as the airline were hit with the violation. I remembered it because we were parked next to the flight at gate B2 and the a/c was in at B1 and with all the commotion, we were stuck as all the reps were moved over for about 20/30 minute to handle the situation.

Days after and about 3 weeks after, HP wasn't allowed alcoholic preflight bev and they were telling first class pax that it was because of pax intoxication and state law, no, it was pending the court date for the f/a and HP violation to go to court and be rectified, which, with a huge fine was, and it all became just a slap on the hand.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: HPLASOps
Posted 2007-01-30 04:53:51 and read 11489 times.

Here's the whole paragraph:

Quote:
"We're interpreting it to apply to all US Airways flights scheduled to arrive in or depart from New Mexico," Lopez said of the order. "They should not be selling alcohol while in New Mexico airspace."

The first part is a tangible aviation concept of which the state gov can regulate. The second part of his quote is just puffery and riff raff to make it seems like he's important. If any part of a flight goes over New Mexico: A) how would the flight attendants know exactly when that is so they can stop serving, and B)what the hell good would that do if alcohol could be served in Arizona and Texas airspace but not New Mexico - you're not really creating any benefit from such law, only causing annoyance. You are right, airspace is federal and out of New Mexico's control, so what he says about serving alcohol over his state is pure b.s. Would every Central and South American airline flying to DEN need to get this license too?

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Ualcsr
Posted 2007-01-30 05:03:32 and read 11447 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 7):
If any part of a flight goes over New Mexico: A) how would the flight attendants know exactly when that is so they can stop serving, and B)what the hell good would that do if alcohol could be served in Arizona and Texas airspace but not New Mexico - you're not really creating any benefit from such law, only causing annoyance.

I was thinking the same thing. I can just see the flight attendants hovering in the galley while crossing New Mexico airspace!! This just all seems like some misplaced, political (and irresponsible) b.s.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Jetdeltamsy
Posted 2007-01-30 05:36:50 and read 11333 times.

Many, many years ago while I worked for Eastern Air Lines, I was working a very delayed flight (about 5 hours) at New Orleans and the Customer Service manager came on board and asked us to wheel the liquor cart up to the gate area. We (the crew) all looked at each other but did what he asked.

Within 15 minutes, the New Orleans Police Department was on hand to stop us from serving liquor. We A) lacked a license, and B) did not have the required franchise rights to serve liquor on the airport premesis. The Ionosphere Club was covered by a vendor's liquor license somehow...it's Louisiana..anything is possible.

We promptly put that cart away! I never heard of it happening anywhere else.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: ABQ747
Posted 2007-01-30 06:11:38 and read 11236 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
but my hunch says the governor of NM has a grudge against us for some reason.

Remember that Richardson is running for President. I wouldn't be surprised if he is only doing this for publicity.

[Edited 2007-01-30 06:15:25]

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: JetJeanes
Posted 2007-01-30 06:34:27 and read 11153 times.

Pull out of abq and let greyhound in

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-01-30 06:41:52 and read 11107 times.

I remember something like this happening in Kansas. I looked on the web and found a couple of references to it. It had to do with the Kansas law on serving alcohol by the drink:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/vie...d=2d733ecce53e2da5412210687e73a330

"Around the time of my high school graduation, the state elected a religiously correct Attorney General named Vern Miller. As sheriff of Sedgewick County, he earned a statewide reputation in violent confrontations with civil rights protesters at a Wichita high school. Once Attorney General, he conducted high profile, middle-of-the-night drug raids at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. A few people were irritated by his grandstanding with the press, but most people loved it and his ratings soared.

Then Miller tried to bust the airlines and Amtrak for serving liquor while crossing Kansas -- which forbids selling liquor by the drink -- claiming, "Kansas goes all the way up, and Kansas goes all the way down." This made the state the butt of national jokes. Miller's next moves were a disaster. He raided gamblers in VFW, American Legion and private halls, and even threatened church bingo games. His state political career fizzled, and the laws he rigorously enforced were repealed."


http://www.lawrence.com/news/2006/ja...ced_its_fair_share_movers_shakers/

"Vern Miller, who as attorney general gained notoriety in Lawrence for jumping out of car trunks during drug busts. Miller also attracted national attention when he forbid airlines from serving liquor on flights over Kansas."

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: HPLASOps
Posted 2007-01-30 06:47:37 and read 11080 times.

Westy,

Were those actual laws put into place by Miller, or were they merely just his own wishes that he extremely vocalized? Neither of those two articles made it clear that those were officially laws, but rather some crazy ideas made up by some kook of an attorney general.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Lincoln
Posted 2007-01-30 06:54:01 and read 11059 times.

I'm not a lawyer, but I find this very hard to beleive would be enforceable:

49 USC § 40103(a)(1): The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.

Section 101(a) The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 prohibits any "State or political subdivision thereof" from "enact[ing] or enforce[ing] any law [...] relating to rates, routes, or services of any air carrier having authority under subchapter IV of this chapter to provide air transportation."

Courts have consistantly and broadly enforced the plain language of this section:

DAN MORALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF TEXAS, PETITIONER v. TRANS WORLD AIRLINES, INC., et al. (1992) -- The Supreme Court held that state "disceptive advertising" laws were preempted as related to the rates, routes, or services of an airline.

AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC., PETITIONER v. MYRON WOLENS ET AL.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF ILLINOIS (1995) -- Illinois consumer fraud statute inapplicable to changes American made to AAdvantage because it related to the "rates, routes, or services".

Also, a government agency is on record (44 Fed. Reg. 9948, 9949 (1979)) that "[The prohibition] extends to all of the economic factors that go into the provision of the quid pro quo for passenger's fare, including flight frequency and timing, liability limits, reservation and boarding practices, insurance, smoking rules, meal service, entertainment, bonding and corporate financing....”

Clearly, the service of alcohol in flight is related to the "...services..." of an airline -- if things as menial as meal service and boarding practices are specifically included, no regulation at the state level would stand up to court challenge -- and I don't think it would be long before it was challenged. (Service on the ground -- especially at the gate area could be a whole 'nother can of worms).

Sigh. There are days where I wish I would have persued law school. Law can be so much fun  Smile

Lincoln
(And any real lawyers, feel free to correct me!)

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-01-30 06:58:20 and read 11047 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 13):
Were those actual laws put into place by Miller, or were they merely just his own wishes that he extremely vocalized?

I believe the ones he was enforcing against the airlines and Amtrak were actual old laws on the books. States have some rather arcane alcohol laws, for instance in Utah, I believe you still have to be a member of an drinking club to get hard alcohol by the drink, and have to ask for a wine list in a restaurant, it can't be offered to you (I'm sure if I'm a bit fuzzy on the particulars of that someone will correct me on it).

When I briefly worked for a hotel here in Oregon, it was unlawful for a bar to serve booze that had been given to them (such as from a liquor distributor), and the minibars in the rooms had signs stating the minibar was closed between 2 and 6am (even though that theoretically could never be enforced).

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: TransWorldSTL
Posted 2007-01-30 07:00:05 and read 11043 times.

Well, if Mr.Governor wants to be an idiot, then I think US should pull out of ABQ, then see how things go.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: 57AZ
Posted 2007-01-30 12:02:25 and read 10840 times.

They are just enforcing the state law. Back when Class One Railroads operated their own passenger services, the steward in charge of the club/lounge car was responsible for seeing that the liquor/alcohol locker was sealed when passing through jurisdictions where liquor or alcohol sales/serving was prohibited. Each railroad provided it's food service staff with a list of where and when liquor/alcoholic beverages could not be sold or dispensed. Amtrak still provides those instructions to their stewards. Also, railroad dining cars and commissary facilities fall under the jurisdiction of the state level departments of health. Don't forget that a lot of airlines offer drinks to their premium customers while on the ground at the gate. In that situation the arguement can be made that their aircraft are also subject to local laws pertaining to alcoholic beverages and food service standards as they are then clearly in the jurisdiction of the local agencies.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Necigrad
Posted 2007-01-30 12:55:08 and read 10778 times.

It's always been understood that it is the NATIONAL Airspace System, and thus is regulated by the FEDERAL Government. This has been proven time and again when Ststes try to do many things aviation related, such as "no fly zones". Any aircraft when in flight is in the NAS and should (in theory) be able to give any State the finger. Where this MIGHT come into play is on the ground. I don't know how that would be handled. If an aircraft is on the ground it's in the State, not the NAS, and I don't kow what authority over the matter each (State vs. Federal) has. In theory, I could see a State being able to prohibit an aircraft from serving alcohol while in the State (not the NAS). This might also apply to posession with intent to distribute/serve, etc.

Now that that's out of the way, I know HPs aircraft have liquor licenses on board for at least one State, either Nebraska or Wyoming, I can't remember which.

The whole LA example about wheeling a cart out to the lobby is a perfect example of the second part of my speel. The airlines are not (for the most part, some clubs would be exceptions) licensed to sell liquor in the State, so they can't, not even for free. How they can serve first class on the ground I dunno either.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2007-01-30 14:13:01 and read 10675 times.

I am sure this is payback time for US from the state of New Mexico. I dont know all the details from the incident that happened several months ago. Apparently the key to the whole argument is that the passenger was, allegedly, visibly drunk on the flight to ABQ. When the flight landed in ABQ and the passengers were disembarking, a FA allegedly expressed concern that the passenger was even too drunk to get off the plane of his own accord. For several months, in ABQ, people were wondering where he went from the time he got off the plane to the time of the accident. Apparently that mystery has been solved or so it seems.

Due tot eh large loss of life as a result of the accident,there was absolute and enormopus outrage in NM, and rightly so, when the accident happened and some of the facts came out. So rightly or wrongly Richardson is reacting to public pressure , Im sure, after the accident.

Im not a lawyer, but there may be some problems for US if there is, as it seems, witnesses to having seen an already drunk man being served more liquor, on a flight into ABQ.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Necigrad
Posted 2007-01-30 15:38:49 and read 10489 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 19):
Im not a lawyer, but there may be some problems for US if there is, as it seems, witnesses to having seen an already drunk man being served more liquor, on a flight into ABQ.

That may be. If it is it will be for the US Government, not New Mexico, to decide. Airlines are not supposed to serve alcohol to persons that appear intoxicated. In fact, we're not even supposed to let you on the plane if you appear drunk. But the word "appear" is so subjective it could easily go in any direction. It would take at least 3 or 4 credible educated witness to refute the inflights decision. One person saying "Yeah, he looked drunk when the flight attendant gave him a drink" ain't gonna cut it.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-01-30 16:12:04 and read 10136 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
I believe the ones he was enforcing against the airlines and Amtrak were actual old laws on the books. States have some rather arcane alcohol laws, for instance in Utah, I believe you still have to be a member of an drinking club to get hard alcohol by the drink, and have to ask for a wine list in a restaurant, it can't be offered to you (I'm sure if I'm a bit fuzzy on the particulars of that someone will correct me on it).

When I briefly worked for a hotel here in Oregon, it was unlawful for a bar to serve booze that had been given to them (such as from a liquor distributor), and the minibars in the rooms had signs stating the minibar was closed between 2 and 6am (even though that theoretically could never be enforced).

You're right about Utah! The Beehive State has the strictest most arcane laws for alcoholic beverage control in the whole U.S.A. This is a VERY big reason Colorado attracts substantially larger numbers of skiers each year. All Utah has is Park City and the Sundance Film festival. And if you ask many who go to it each year, I think it would be a safe assumption that many would prefer it to be in Colorado based upon the liquor control laws that exist in Utah.
It is quite amazing to see the DL flight attendants carding people on flights out of SLC for drinks.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: STLGph
Posted 2007-01-30 16:20:26 and read 10052 times.

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 10):
Remember that Richardson is running for President. I wouldn't be surprised if he is only doing this for publicity.

Because Richardson's name is plastered all over the story....

Oy.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Poitin
Posted 2007-01-30 17:34:54 and read 9471 times.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
I'm not a lawyer, but I find this very hard to beleive would be enforceable:

49 USC § 40103(a)(1): The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.

If you were a lawyer, you would know that the US Constitution takes precedence over all laws, with federal or state.

The 21st Amendment to the US Constitution says in its first two parts:



    1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

    2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.



Article 2 clearly makes what all these rinky dink states are doing legal.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2007-01-30 17:43:07 and read 9393 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states

Do states collect overflight taxes??

This would seem ot be aviolation of the interstate commerce clause

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
You're right about Utah! The Beehive State has the strictest most arcane laws for alcoholic beverage control in the whole U.S.A. This is a VERY big reason Colorado attracts substantially larger numbers of skiers each year. All Utah has is Park City and the Sundance Film festival.

What an uninformed comment...There are more ski destinations within 45 minutes of SLC than anywhere else in the world. Ever hear of Alta, Solitude, Snow Bird, Canyons, Deer Valley.....There is no problem getting a beer or wine at these resorts. If you need a scotch while skiing, you might have a problem.

Utah has the best skiing in North America.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Gte439u
Posted 2007-01-30 17:44:41 and read 9376 times.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
49 USC § 40103(a)(1): The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.


From the Interstate Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constituion, the Federal government has the power to regulate what goes on in U.S. airspace. See U.S. Const. art. I, sec. 7, cl. 3.

I think that US Airways could make a valid arguement that liquor served on the ground falls into interestate commerce, especially if the flight is going to another state.

Furthermore, even if the flight were in the same state, a judge taking an expansive view of the constitution would say that such a flight is in interstate commerce since many passengers may have destinations in other states or foreign countries.

P.S. - this is not legal advice, and don't take it as such. These are just come off-the-cuff arguments.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
Sigh. There are days where I wish I would have persued law school. Law can be so much fun

Lincoln
(And any real lawyers, feel free to correct me!)

Hahaha... avoid law school like the plague. If you're interested in Case Western for law school, feel free to contact me. It woud be nice to have another airline geek around this place.

[Edited 2007-01-30 17:52:24]

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: PROSA
Posted 2007-01-30 17:46:50 and read 9481 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 19):
Apparently the key to the whole argument is that the passenger was, allegedly, visibly drunk on the flight to ABQ. When the flight landed in ABQ and the passengers were disembarking, a FA allegedly expressed concern that the passenger was even too drunk to get off the plane of his own accord. For several months, in ABQ, people were wondering where he went from the time he got off the plane to the time of the accident. Apparently that mystery has been solved or so it seems.

It's now been reported that he bought some beer at a convenience store.

US also may end up facing civil liability.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: 787KQ
Posted 2007-01-30 18:30:34 and read 9044 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

Alcohol consumed inflight is considered delivered or used in a state? If not, then the excerpt doesn't get us to the point of making the state laws paramount.

Are you a lawyer since you trashed Lincoln?

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Gte439u
Posted 2007-01-30 18:31:22 and read 9041 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.




Article 2 clearly makes what all these rinky dink states are doing legal.

Wouldn't you say that the Commerce Clause prohibits New Mexico from regulating airline liquor sales since those aircraft are involved in interstate commerce? I think that New Mexico really can only regulate any alcohol sales that occur on the ground, and I don't think that airlines sell liquor on the ground.

Generally, courts interpret the 21st Amendment to the Constitution as allowing states to regulate liquor sales within that state only. The High Court recently struck down state prohibitions on mail-order alcohol sales. See Granholm v. Heald, 544 U.S. 460 (2005).

What will NM try to do next - Ban the consumption of alcohol by 18-year olds on Japan Airlines flights between YVR and MEX? It's a slippery slope to stifling stateism here.

[Edited 2007-01-30 18:38:28]

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Cba
Posted 2007-01-30 19:47:10 and read 8441 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
it seems like the only reason they care now is because some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?).

This ongoing BS with drunk driving is getting ridiculous. If someone kills people while driving drunk, it IS SOLELY HIS/HER FAULT. This crap about civil liability for people who serve alcohol to someone who then goes and does something stupid like drive is absurd. Mr. Pabst chose to consume the alcohol, US airways did not force it down his throat.

People need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions, especially when it comes to alcohol-related offenses.

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 5):
This is at fault of MR .Bapst not US Airways.

 checkmark 

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
the minibars in the rooms had signs stating the minibar was closed between 2 and 6am

What a joke...

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Jetdude
Posted 2007-01-30 21:29:56 and read 7766 times.

OK, now that all the drama is over (I Hope!) here are some of the facts.

Airlines have to purchase liquor licenses to serve liquor in a city. (Pre-departure beverage).

And it is against federal regulations to:
1. board any individual that APPEARS to be intoxicated
2. serve liquor (in flight) to anyone that appears to be intoxicated.

In addition, the passenger acted very strangely upon landing, getting out of his seat, trying to get his luggage and get off the plane while taxiing, where it is thought that during that interaction, the FA should have been able to notice the passengers intoxication and notified authorities upon arrival.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: TransWorldSTL
Posted 2007-01-30 21:39:21 and read 7689 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 19):
I am sure this is payback time for US from the state of New Mexico.



Quoting IADLHR (Reply 19):
a FA allegedly expressed concern that the passenger was even too drunk to get off the plane of his own accord. For several months, in ABQ, people were wondering where he went from the time he got off the plane to the time of the accident. Apparently that mystery has been solved or so it seems.

Payback? What???
Does New Mexico think that it's the airlines responsibility to make sure people get home from the airport safely? They didn't know whether he was driving home or not. They shouldn't really have to care. If he was too intoxicated to drink, he should have taken one of probably 100 available cabs. He made the decision to drink while onboard, he should be responsible for his own actions.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Motopolitico
Posted 2007-01-30 21:41:24 and read 7680 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
If you were a lawyer, you would know that the US Constitution takes precedence over all laws, with federal or state.

Although it may seem that way at times, I'd like to refer you to the 10th amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

This is evidence otherwise. I think the US is the only western power where final sovereignty resides in the states, and not the federal government. Of course, the Civil War went a long way towards reversing that.

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-01-30 22:37:51 and read 7298 times.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 24):
Do states collect overflight taxes??

This would seem ot be aviolation of the interstate commerce clause

I wish it wre that way but the teachers unions would have the biggest  hissyfit  if they ever dropped them here. $$$ for Public Education!

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 24):
What an uninformed comment...There are more ski destinations within 45 minutes of SLC than anywhere else in the world. Ever hear of Alta, Solitude, Snow Bird, Canyons, Deer Valley.....There is no problem getting a beer or wine at these resorts. If you need a scotch while skiing, you might have a problem.

I wish you were right about the average "Joe Blow" coming to Utah to Ski the first time. The National perception however is very different. I am VERY Informed on this issue. Utah's liquor laws do more damage to their tourism than just about any other state. I'll even say that being devoutly Mormon.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 24):
Utah has the best skiing in North America.

 checkmark  I agree with you totally! But too many people like to drink the Colorado Kool-Aid!  drunk 

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: AirportGal
Posted 2007-01-30 23:42:08 and read 6879 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?).

if he was intoxicated and in an accident after departing a bar, the bar can be held liable also (at least in the state of Washington). Seems no different here - the airline was serving alcohol.

Quoting Jetdude:
In addition, the passenger acted very strangely upon landing, getting out of his seat, trying to get his luggage and get off the plane while taxiing, where it is thought that during that interaction, the FA should have been able to notice the passengers intoxication and notified authorities upon arrival.

Bingo!

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: CanadianPylon
Posted 2007-01-30 23:59:23 and read 6784 times.

Quoting AirportGal (Reply 34):
Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?).

And yet another glowing example on how PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY has gone out the window.

I guess the airline forced him to drink on the plane, and then forced him to get into his car to drive. No wait, HE CHOOSE to drink on the plane, and HE CHOOSE to drive his car. HE DIDN'T call a cab, and HE DIDN'T say 'NO' to the drinks.  Confused

Quoting AirportGal (Reply 34):
if he was intoxicated and in an accident after departing a bar, the bar can be held liable also (at least in the state of Washington). Seems no different here - the airline was serving alcohol.

Ahhh... legislated common sense. There is no such thing. The scariest thing you'll ever hear from someone is " I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

Canadianpylon

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Lincoln
Posted 2007-01-31 03:39:13 and read 5752 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
Article 2 clearly makes what all these rinky dink states are doing legal.

The case law -- especially the Granholm case cited below -- says otherwise. The "elastic clause" (US Const. Art. I, Sec. VIII) "The Congress shall have power …To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper..." has been held to give the federal government sweeping authority.

Follow that up with the supremacy clause (US Const. Art. VI, Para. 2) "...the Laws of the United States which shall be made ... shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby any ... Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding"

The Airline Deregulation Act, as a law of the United States is the supreme law of the land and explicitly preempts state laws and prohibits states from enacting or enforcing any law (or anything having the force of law, e.g. administrative regulation) relating to an airline's rates routes or services. Therefore, any New Mexico law that would have the effect of resticting an alirline's service of alcohol (as a constituent part of the "service" of an airline) is invalid.

I refer, once again to American Airlines, Inc. v. Wolens, et al. (1995), holding that a state law can not be applied to an airline frequent filer program. From the Supreme Court opinion: "The full text of the ADA's preemption clause, and the congressional purpose to leave largely to the airlines themselves, and not at all to States, the selection and design of marketing mechanisms appropriate to the furnishing of air transportation services ..."

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 28):
Generally, courts interpret the 21st Amendment to the Constitution as allowing states to regulate liquor sales within that state only. The High Court recently struck down state prohibitions on mail-order alcohol sales. See Granholm v. Heald, 544 U.S. 460 (2005).

You know, after I posted the original message that precident poped in to my mind as a quite appropos example.

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 25):
P.S. - this is not legal advice, and don't take it as such. These are just come off-the-cuff arguments.

Spoken like a true lawyer  

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 32):
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Lincoln
(Still not a lawyer. Still not as dumb as Poitin implied.)

[Edited 2007-01-31 04:10:42]

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-01-31 03:44:09 and read 5710 times.

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 27):
Are you a lawyer since you trashed Lincoln?

Who's trashing Lincoln?!?!?  box 

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2007-01-31 03:58:56 and read 5627 times.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ. I've never heard of such law, and according to the article, every other major carrier serving ABQ has one. We've been serving ABQ for at least 18 years, it seems like the only reason they care now is because some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?). I have no idea if other states have similar laws, and if this law was put into place recently, but my hunch says the governor of NM has a grudge against us for some reason.

Sheesh, who is this guy, the reverend idiot from that movie, "Footlose?" He banned rock and roll music because he "claimed" that it killed some kid while he was driving. A little off topic but relevant. I think it's the same thing, but only this involves alcohol. There is nothing wrong with alcohol and with serving it. Some idiots just do not realize that it can kill if its use is abused, and they're the ones ruining it for everyone. Because of them, other idiots are going off the deepend about drug abuse, that alcohol is just plain bad and that nobody should drink it...

To them, an alcoholic is someone/anyone who consumes even one drop of alcohol. I have had a few drinks since I turned 21, so that makes me a drunk and an alcoholic then... That argument is more lame than Michael Moore's credibility.

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 11):
Pull out of abq and let greyhound in

Serving america, one drunken nimcompoop at a time  drunk 

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: CWAFlyer
Posted 2007-01-31 04:27:18 and read 5492 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
You're right about Utah! The Beehive State has the strictest most arcane laws for alcoholic beverage control in the whole U.S.A. This is a VERY big reason Colorado attracts substantially larger numbers of skiers each year. All Utah has is Park City and the Sundance Film festival. And if you ask many who go to it each year, I think it would be a safe assumption that many would prefer it to be in Colorado based upon the liquor control laws that exist in Utah.
It is quite amazing to see the DL flight attendants carding people on flights out of SLC for drinks.

I live in Utah and have for the past 17 years. The liquor laws are a bit confusing, but I have learned to live with them and make do. All of the major chain restaurants in St. George serve liquor with meals. Many of the other non-chains also have liquor licenses. Mesquite is a quick 30 minute drive away and it's easy enough to stock up.

I can remember not that long ago not being served liquor on the ground in SLC. I can also remember airlines not being allowed to serve over the state of Kansas for whatever reason. I have found that the dry counties in Texas and the old "Blue Laws" in Missouri that used to forbid liquor sales on Sunday to be far more oppressive and archaic than Utah's laws. Kansas used to have a law similar to Utah about buying club memberships. I remember having to buy one before I could have a beer with a meal.
[Edited 2007-01-31 04:31:51]

[Edited 2007-01-31 04:34:17]

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: MaidensGator
Posted 2007-01-31 04:49:12 and read 5440 times.

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 4):
Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ.

It says..."They should not be selling alcohol while in New Mexico airspace", which I think would mean they can't sell alcohol while flying over New Mexico.

It would be nice to read the actual cease and desist order. Anyone know if it's online somewhere?

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
Sigh. There are days where I wish I would have persued law school. Law can be so much fun

I spent eight hours trying a case today; it's not always so much fun... but usually it is!


Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 16):
Well, if Mr.Governor wants to be an idiot, then I think US should pull out of ABQ, then see how things go.

And the benefit to US would be???

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 18):
Any aircraft when in flight is in the NAS and should (in theory) be able to give any State the finger.

I don't think being airborne means you can just ignore state laws... Interesting theory though....

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 25):
I think that US Airways could make a valid arguement that liquor served on the ground falls into interestate commerce, especially if the flight is going to another state.



Quoting Gte439u (Reply 28):
Wouldn't you say that the Commerce Clause prohibits New Mexico from regulating airline liquor sales since those aircraft are involved in interstate commerce?

The Commerce Clause gives Congress the power to pass laws in areas that affect interstate commerce. Courts have held that this includes some intrastate activities that substantially affect interstate commerce. The key is that there has to be a federal law passed that preempts the state law. If the state law conflicts with the federal law, the Supremacy Clause says the federal prevails. If there isn't a direct conflict, the laws coexist. If there is no federal law regulating the activity, simply affecting interstate commerce won't invalidate the state action.

This is an interesting case. Lots of good comments. I'm by no means an expert in this area and I don't have the energy to research it tonight. It would be nice to see the New Mexico order. I'm sure those lawyers that drafted it at least considered the federal implications...

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2007-01-31 05:05:10 and read 5408 times.

Interesting conversation by the legal experts.

Just for kicks I googled airline liquor license and came up with a few interesting links. Here are a few things to you to discuss.

How about a packet of forms for airlines from the Texas ABC which starts with this paragraph
Allows the holder to sell or serve alcoholic beverages in or from any size container on a commercial passenger airplane operated in compliance with a valid license, permit or certificate issue under the authority of the United States or this state, even though the plane, in the course of its flight, may cross an area in which the sale of alcoholic beverages is prohibited.
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/forms/Lic/airline.pdf
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/forms/default.htm

Massachusetts
Applications to sell alcohol on aircraft and to simply transport alcohol on the aircraft.
http://www.mass.gov/abcc/pdf_frm/airappl.pdf

Alaska
State law about a Common Carrier Dispensary License for airlines to dispense alcohol on board aircraft.
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/...S/Title04/Chapter11/Section180.htm

Connecticut
Info about an airline Liquor Permit and its fees.
http://www.ct-clic.com/detail.asp?code=1128

There were many others also. i.e. California's ABC has a liquor license code Type 55 On-Sale General for Airplane.

Well I'm going to sit back down while you all discuss.  Wink  champagne 

Topic: RE: US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico
Username: 57AZ
Posted 2007-01-31 06:16:56 and read 5317 times.

I should point out that the service of alcohol is one point in which the federal case law is confusing as to whether it applies to the service of alcoholic beverages. On the one hand, the federal government claims jurisdiction over the interstate regulation of air carriers through the Airline Deregulation Act. On the other hand, the government ceded the right to regulate the sale of alcoholic beverages by interstate carriers (specifically the passenger railroads) through the now defunct Interstate Commerce Commission. As a regulatory body. it was authorized to regulate the railroads rates and services. Note however that it was never construed that the right to regulate the railroad's services included anything regarding the sales or consumption of alcoholic beverages. If that is the defination that was written into the Airline Deregulation Act, then there is no federal preemption and the states are free to regulate the sales of alcohol as they see fit. Note that most airlines that sell alcoholic beverages do so by the drink. Under every state law, sales by the drink would require the seller to possess a valid vendor license.

I should note that according to the article in the AZ Daily Star, US Airways interprets the ruling in New Mexico to apply to all flights that depart or land within the State of New Mexico. Thus no alcoholic service on those legs of the flights.


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