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Topic: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-01-29 16:06:33 and read 13622 times.

Dear All,

Today after logging into Sabre, I noticed that the Etihad's flights flown nonstop from AUH to JFK have been re-scheduled.

The flights now depart AUH daily @ 0200 and arrive into JFK @ 0830 i.e. EY 100. The return flight i.e. EY 101 departs JFK @ 1110 and arrives into JFK @ 0740 the next day. The flight is flown with an A 345 and is expected to be replaced by the larger A 346 by the summer.

Now I have a serious problem with this schedule. This new timing doesnt connect with any of the Indian subcontinent flights both ways and only connects with BKK flights both ways.

I fail to see how EY plans on getting pax bound for BOM/DEL/LHE/KHI on board from JFK and vice versa as the transit in AUH in both directions exceeds 10-12 hours. BOM & DEL only connect twice a week with the JFK flight where as LHE/KHI/CMB/DAC do not connect anyday of the week in both directions!!!

The only good thing for EY is that if they have a SPA with DL / AA out of JFK then their flights will finally see good onward 6th freedom traffic bound for other major U.S. cities which wasnt possible in the past as their flights arrived late in the evening i.e. 8pmish.

The only savior plan for EY I feel is to make JFK double daily by having this morning flight and adding another flight with an evening arrival into JFK similar to EY 503/502.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2007-01-29 16:59:03 and read 13313 times.

What a shame!....You should write to them and voice your concerns!

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2007-01-29 17:10:25 and read 13213 times.

Agree with much of what you say, but dont forget that this flight connects to the SE Asia routes to BKK, KUL etc (do they serve Jakarta yet?) - they obviously think theres enough O&D pax and transit pax for these routes to keep their JFK rotation alive. I think maybe EK and QR have the Indian stuff sewn up, and perhaps EY are aligning themselves a bit differently to carve themselves a little niche.

Having said that, I dont think a second daily flight is too far off.

Given the choice i'd take EY over EK any day. Their A345s are just out of this world.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-01-29 17:43:40 and read 13003 times.

nopes, their JFK flight doesnt even connect with KUL...only BKK connects both ways conveniently alongwith twice weekly flights to BOM/DEL.

what i think may happen though is that EY will start another departure bank time of early morning departures from AUH to certain key regional destinations to help feed this JFK flight.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: LHUSA
Posted 2007-01-29 18:01:32 and read 12894 times.

Anyone know how the loads have been on this flight?

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2007-01-29 18:04:04 and read 12856 times.

I would think the BKK connection would be enough to give the flight the gee-up it needs, although i cannot imagine yields are that wonderful with BKK alone.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2007-01-29 18:10:15 and read 12812 times.

I don't understand how this flight, and 2 out of 3 of the EK flights carry any passengers at all. The local demand for travel between even all of North America and the UAE is tiny, and the connecting traffic doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Retiming it to move it out of the South Asian flights bank doesn't sound like it's going to help either.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-01-29 18:20:26 and read 12757 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I don't understand how this flight, and 2 out of 3 of the EK flights carry any passengers at all.

EK has no problems seeing decent load factors (50-70% in low season & 80-90% in high season) on their JFK flights as all their flights connect both ways to all of their SE Asian, Indian Subcontinent, Iran, Middle East, North Africa and East Africa flights. This is due to the fact that EK flies at least double daily to a majority of its destinations from DXB plus offers vv cheap fares from JFK.

I recall reading somewhere this month that the overall seat load factor for all of EKs 3 daily JFK flights combined was 68% for 2006.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Beeweel15
Posted 2007-01-29 18:50:54 and read 12567 times.

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 4):
Anyone know how the loads have been on this flight?

I work at JFK and I can tell you the flight on Ethiad are light when it comes to passengers on average they take between 4 to 7 ulds of bags on each departure. The only time it was close to 10 ulds of bags was during the Hadjg. Cargo they do carry a decent load per flight around 5 to 7 Pallets. I think these flights are flown here just for show not for profit. Soon Qatar will be flying here and that will make three carriers from that tiny area.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-01-29 18:53:14 and read 12548 times.

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 8):
I think these flights are flown here just for show not for profit.

this is the same business philosophy adopted by EK & QR too on many destinations  Wink

U should know by now that EY has developed quite a reputation of copying whatever EK does.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Avatordon
Posted 2007-01-29 19:04:37 and read 12468 times.

What makes you think the fares to India are profitable? There is cut-throat competition in the Indian market and a glut of capacity. Not only US and Indian carriers, but just about every carrier in Europe and the Near East. (Remember - UA pulled out of DEL because the LHR-DEL market was trashed by AI). As for the schedule, please keep in mind that, as more aircraft are added to the fleet this year, the connections will be "tweaked" to maximize both connection and revenue opportunities.

As for tourism to the area, look at Dubai and how tourism has exploded in that area (http://www.ameinfo.com/38860.html). In addition to that, the government of Abu Dhabi is about to launch its own tourism program in the US - they, too, seem to have growth plans.) (http://www.travelwirenews.com/cgi-cript/csArticles/articles/000107/010789-p.htm)
Let's not forget the oil, construction, still-growing financial, and now tourism markets in Abu Dhabi.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2007-01-29 19:10:07 and read 12419 times.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 7):
EK has no problems seeing decent load factors (50-70% in low season & 80-90% in high season) on their JFK flights as all their flights connect both ways to all of their SE Asian, Indian Subcontinent, Iran, Middle East, North Africa and East Africa flights

EK is already much bigger than both EY and QR, which has direct implications on the airline's hub operation. EK has by now sufficient capacity to operate a hub and spoke model with optimized frequencies and connectivity. As long as EY and to a lesser extent QR do not reach the critical mass to operate a similar model, overall connectivity will remain problematic.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2007-01-29 22:33:13 and read 11984 times.

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 10):
(Remember - UA pulled out of DEL because the LHR-DEL market was trashed by AI)

UA pulled out of India post 9-11 during a travel slump from the United States. At the time it pulled out, there was a woeful lack of capacity out of India, something that carriers like AA and CO and others have since exploited. UA pulling out of India has nothing to do with AI "trashing" the LHR-DEL market. Back in 2001, there were only about 12 direct flighs from LHR to DEL.

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 10):
What makes you think the fares to India are profitable? There is cut-throat competition in the Indian market and a glut of capacity.

At the end of the day, everyone makes money on the Indian routes, including such carriers as Alitalia and Austrian. Jet Airways doesn't on its LHR routes, but only because it expanded too rapidly and was hitherto denied the all too important North American connectivity. Still, even Jet has managed to stem the losses. And, yes, the Indian market has become cutthroat, but its in comparison with what it used to be when air travel in and out of India was heavily regulated and constrained.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2007-01-29 23:13:25 and read 11857 times.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
everyone makes money on the Indian routes

Bmi?

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Emirates777
Posted 2007-01-30 00:03:29 and read 11312 times.

I think the change in timings has been made in order to permit efficient aircraft rotation to serve both JFK and the new SYD service. EY will be getting very good utilisation of their 4x A345s -- serving JFK and SYD daily as well as LHR 6x weekly, BOM 5x weekly and DEL 1x weekly.

Rgds
Emirates777

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2007-01-30 00:33:03 and read 10837 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 13):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
everyone makes money on the Indian routes

Bmi?

Well, BMI may be an outlying case. However, we don't know if BMI were actually making losses. Their load factors were certainly decent on the BOM route. However, with Jet doubling their LHR flights, BMI would have had to market their product rather aggressively, something they weren't doing either in India or the US for that matter. When you look at carriers like Alitalia, Austrian and the other European carriers, they market their flights to India very aggressively in the US.

As for Etihad, maybe they don't need to market their US flights to India. God knows, there are enough Indians headed to Abu Dhabi.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Flyguy1
Posted 2007-01-30 00:53:27 and read 10542 times.

IIRC, it was rumored on this site, that EY would be starting a second daily JFK flight via FRA. The retiming of the nonstop flight, may be the first sign of this happening.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Tbird
Posted 2007-01-30 01:46:33 and read 9934 times.

Well they better not fail before I can get a HoBe departure shot of them. This new schedule is great for us photogs!

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Sq_ek_freak
Posted 2007-01-30 02:34:20 and read 9505 times.

Perhaps the fact that the flight only connects to EY's BKK flight is Etihad's reaction to the possible imminent cancellation of TG's direct JFK services to BKK. While LAX had a one stop service through Japan before it went non-stop, JFK was not operated until the A345s arrived. Currently, I know that when the LAX non-stops are done, it will turn back to the one-stop service. I have heard no such news for JFK though. It would be smart for EY to capatilize on TG's inability to sustain the JFK-BKK route if that is indeed what they are doing.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Avatordon
Posted 2007-01-30 03:07:31 and read 9189 times.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
UA pulled out of India post 9-11 during a travel slump from the United States. At the time it pulled out, there was a woeful lack of capacity out of India, something that carriers like AA and CO and others have since exploited. UA pulling out of India has nothing to do with AI "trashing" the LHR-DEL market. Back in 2001, there were only about 12 direct flighs from LHR to DEL.

This was, for all intents and purposes, a no-profit prestige route. I was in New York sales w/UA at the time, and it was made clear to us that LHR-DEL was **not** a profitable market, the lack of capacity notwithstanding. ALl of the other segments on UA1/UA2, however, were. We were told - by our own CEO, Rono Dutta - that it was because AI was trashing the market. Due to the low yields in this market, that is, LHR-DEL segment, UA finally deemed it too costly to operate and discontinued it. When that was stopped, we were planning to operate a daily 747-400 service nonstop ORD-DEL but then 9/11 happened, and that idea was canned.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Avatordon
Posted 2007-01-30 03:09:09 and read 9161 times.

Quoting Emirates777 (Reply 14):
I think the change in timings has been made in order to permit efficient aircraft rotation to serve both JFK and the new SYD service. EY will be getting very good utilisation of their 4x A345s -- serving JFK and SYD daily as well as LHR 6x weekly, BOM 5x weekly and DEL 1x weekly.

That is precisely what is being done. The JFK aircraft will run through to SYD and vice-versa.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-01-30 03:17:57 and read 9064 times.

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 20):
That is precisely what is being done. The JFK aircraft will run through to SYD and vice-versa.

i dont think so as the A 345s used for JFK will be replaced by the A 346s in the summer (most likely by early June).

SYD becomes a daily A 345 service from June 29th...the daily flight is already uploaded on sabre reservations systems.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Avatordon
Posted 2007-01-30 03:57:47 and read 8720 times.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
i dont think so as the A 345s used for JFK will be replaced by the A 346s in the summer (most likely by early June).

That's what we were told at a meeting a couple of weeks ago, but like anything else, could change. I am curious as to where the A340-600s will go.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Afterburner
Posted 2007-01-30 04:01:56 and read 8684 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
do they serve Jakarta yet?

Yes, they do.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Emirates773er
Posted 2007-01-30 04:03:15 and read 8672 times.

Guys any idea when AUH-YYZ could become a direct route?

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Mk777
Posted 2007-01-30 04:22:40 and read 8475 times.

why can't these middle east airlines start service to IAD, I am tired of flying the european carriers from here to DEL....I am sure there would be market for EY to flyfrom AUH to IAD, i know i would fly them to DEL rather than the european counterparts...no offense to anyone...  Smile

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Beeweel15
Posted 2007-01-30 07:30:54 and read 7320 times.

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 22):
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
i dont think so as the A 345s used for JFK will be replaced by the A 346s in the summer (most likely by early June).

That's what we were told at a meeting a couple of weeks ago, but like anything else, could change. I am curious as to where the A340-600s will go.

Did you mean the 777-300ER.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Jetdeltamsy
Posted 2007-01-30 08:04:31 and read 7113 times.

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
I fail to see how EY plans on getting pax bound for BOM/DEL/LHE/KHI on board from JFK and vice versa as the transit in AUH in both directions exceeds 10-12 hours. BOM & DEL only connect twice a week with the JFK flight where as LHE/KHI/CMB/DAC do not connect any day of the week in both directions!!!

Perhaps they are not chasing the Indian market.

While a huge market, it is becoming more and more exploited by foreign airlines every day.

Their decision may also be based on aircraft availability.

Perhaps there will be enough JFK-AUH local traffic that they won't need connecting traffic.

I mean, who knows. I sincerely doubt they published their schedule without thoroughly scrutinizing profit opportunities. In other words, they know what they are doing.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Beeweel15
Posted 2007-02-07 19:47:23 and read 3591 times.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 27):
Perhaps there will be enough JFK-AUH local traffic that they won't need connecting traffic.

The pax loads are exetreemly light while cargo is good. Last night EY left with 3 ulds of pax and crew bags but the rest of the space was filled with cargo.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: EtihadAirways
Posted 2007-02-07 20:35:30 and read 3497 times.

Etihad Airways is going to have new timing to connect with the Indian subcontinent Destinations. There are a lot of changes in timing and aircrafts types it's all being sorted out.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2007-02-07 20:46:38 and read 3434 times.

Does Etihad even care if its planes fly half empty?

Isn't the airline basically a vanity project for Abu Dhabi as a one-upmanship over Emirates?

As long as the slave flights from South Asia go full and provide some revenue, all is well.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: Manny
Posted 2007-02-07 20:47:49 and read 3437 times.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 27):
Perhaps they are not chasing the Indian market.



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 27):
Perhaps there will be enough JFK-AUH local traffic that they won't need connecting traffic.

Perhaps!

Really ? What drives the O&D demand between New York & Abu Dabhi. The likes of EK, EY are setup for connecting traffic. Otherwise there is not enough O&D demand inspite of tourism to justify the flights & frequencies of these flights to various destinations.

Quoting EtihadAirways (Reply 29):
Etihad Airways is going to have new timing to connect with the Indian subcontinent Destinations. There are a lot of changes in timing and aircrafts types it's all being sorted out.

I would bet they are. That sounds more like whats really happening.

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: HiJazzey
Posted 2007-02-07 20:50:05 and read 3411 times.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 25):
why can't these middle east airlines start service to IAD, I am tired of flying the european carriers from here to DEL....I am sure there would be market for EY to flyfrom AUH to IAD, i know i would fly them to DEL rather than the european counterparts...no offense to anyone... Smile

SV fly to IAD  Wink

Topic: RE: Etihad's JFK Flight To Fail!
Username: AirbusfanYYZ
Posted 2007-02-07 21:20:14 and read 3329 times.

Quoting Emirates773er (Reply 24):
Guys any idea when AUH-YYZ could become a direct route?

Direct AUH-YYZ starts June '07 with the A345, upgrading to the A346 as of Aug '07.

Cheers,
Kaz


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