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Topic: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Jetpixx
Posted 2007-02-21 10:01:24 and read 15745 times.

What is the largest city (in terms of population/catchment area, etc) in the United States and then also the world which is heavily served by multiple airlines, but does not have true hub? Here are a couple of the ideas which came to my mind for the United States, although I certainly could be wrong.

AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: AS739X
Posted 2007-02-21 10:14:22 and read 15732 times.

BOSTON. Technically not a hub for any airline.

ASLAX

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Bimmerkid19
Posted 2007-02-21 10:23:06 and read 15705 times.

SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Flyingfool
Posted 2007-02-21 10:24:58 and read 15701 times.

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 2):
SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)

SIN is hub for Singapore Airlines and KUL for Malaysia Airlines...

Regards, Flyingfool

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2007-02-21 10:25:45 and read 15705 times.

I would go with BOS myself.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2007-02-21 10:29:22 and read 15685 times.

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 2):
SIN for QF and a few European Airlines that have intra Southeast Asia flights from SIN and KUL (KLM)

I think you misunderstood the question.

What is the largest city to not be a hub to any airline?

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: EI A330-200
Posted 2007-02-21 10:47:05 and read 15637 times.

The correct answer would have to be LAX. The 2 most populous counties in the country use LAX. It's a focus city for DL, AA, UA, and WN, but non of them have made it a hub. The SoCal metro area is one of the most populous.

Brian

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: TransWorldSTL
Posted 2007-02-21 10:59:42 and read 15607 times.

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 6):
The correct answer would have to be LAX.

This is the conclusion that A.Net has come to everytime this thread pops up (once a month, round a bout)

Largest US City That Is Not A Hub (by Styles Aug 3 2003 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: TYCOON
Posted 2007-02-21 12:25:26 and read 15439 times.

Definitely LAX, not really a hub for anyone, just a lot of O&D flights.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Stylo777
Posted 2007-02-21 13:42:15 and read 15267 times.

LAX for sure is the largest... but what about Berlin/TXL?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Pelican
Posted 2007-02-21 13:43:17 and read 15266 times.

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 9):
but what about Berlin/TXL?

Berlin could be the biggest city in Europe without a hub.

pelican

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2007-02-21 14:10:58 and read 15194 times.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
Berlin could be the biggest city in Europe without a hub.

It most certainly is, at least as far as the city itself goes Berlin is the second largest in Europe after London. Not sure what position they hold as far as entire Metro areas go, though Berlin should still be in front, behind the whole Ruhr area MSA.
Interestingly enough, the second place is hold by Hamburg. Most larger cities in Europe are hub cities for their repective carriers, and I believe outside of Germany and the UK, there are no 1,000,000+ cities in the EU that aren't airline hubs.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2007-02-21 14:51:16 and read 15089 times.

In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline, while the two biggest cities in the region have hubs MEX and GRU respectively.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Indy
Posted 2007-02-21 14:56:19 and read 15063 times.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA

IND isn't a hub for anyone.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: TYCOON
Posted 2007-02-21 15:12:36 and read 15021 times.

Might be a bit nit-picky, but what is our definition of a hub?
Air Berlin and Germanwings certainly use Berlin as a base of operations/hub (I won't bother counting Easyjet but they do have quite the operation based in Berlin too)
Tuifly (ex. HLX) use Hamburg as a base/hub
And, technically, the new Brazilian LCC Webjet has GIG as its hub.
Are we talking flag-carriers or major operators?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-02-21 16:05:13 and read 14876 times.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 14):
Might be a bit nit-picky, but what is our definition of a hub?

A hub is an airport where an airline maintains a large presence AND it schedules flights in a way that there are many passengers that land there just to change airplanes.

An airport that is a crew/maintenance base is not a hub, even if the airline chooses to call it so.

I fail to see how Webjet Brazil would have a hub in GIG. They don't even have enough airplanes to have a hub anywhere.

The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

An airline scheduling 40 well timed flights at an airport may have it as a hub. Another airline scheduling 200 flights at an airport catering to local traffic without regard for convenient connections does not have it as a hub. I don't regard TAM's operation at GRU as a hub because the flight schedule is not convenient for connections.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 16:09:50 and read 14860 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

Nonetheless, UA calls LAX a hub, thus, it is a hub.

There isn't a true definition of what a hub actually is, so we usually have to defer to what the airline refers to as a hub.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: N766UA
Posted 2007-02-21 16:12:01 and read 14849 times.

LAX is a United hub, officially. So that's out. BOS is a focus city for AA, US, and DL, but nobody calls it a hub, so my vote goes to BOS.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: AAce24
Posted 2007-02-21 16:14:46 and read 14817 times.

We've had this discussion at least 20 or 30 times already.

It always ends up being an arguement between those who believe LAX is a hub and those who don't.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 16:21:57 and read 14779 times.

Quoting AAce24 (Reply 18):
We've had this discussion at least 20 or 30 times already.

It always ends up being an arguement between those who believe LAX is a hub and those who don't.

AGREED. A "hub" is in the eye of the "beholder" (i.e. the airline). Thus LAX is a hub, plain and simple, as UA considers it as such.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: AustinAirport
Posted 2007-02-21 16:32:11 and read 14727 times.

Austin is a large city served by all the major airlines. However being within 200 miles of 2 large airports we get bypassed.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 16:47:18 and read 14673 times.

JAX is the most populated city in Florida. No hub there. It is a larger city than BOS. It is actually the third most populated city on the east coast.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: N200WN
Posted 2007-02-21 17:04:40 and read 14608 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 21):
JAX is the most populated city in Florida. No hub there. It is a larger city than BOS. It is actually the third most populated city on the east coast.

Those kind of stats are always fun to throw around, just like El Paso is bigger than Atlanta and San Antonio is larger than Dallas. But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there." San Antonio is now the seventh largest city in the country, but the problem is there just aren't that many of us living outside the city limits in the surrounding hills.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 17:13:44 and read 14571 times.

Quoting N200WN (Reply 22):
But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there."

Point taken. I was just throwing another city into the mix.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2007-02-21 17:18:19 and read 14548 times.

BOS is a hub for jetBlue... (along with JFK, IAD, OAK, FLL per their own website)

LAX is a hub for United..

Added info

[Edited 2007-02-21 17:19:31]

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2007-02-21 17:22:08 and read 14526 times.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline, while the two biggest cities in the region have hubs MEX and GRU respectively.

In Southamerica there are quite a number of large cities which aren't hub:
In Brazil I could think of CNF, POA, CWB, SSA, FOR and REC, which I wouldn't call them hubs. In Argentina: COR, MDZ, TUC and ROS. Then there are the "other" large Southamerican cites: CLO, MDE, BAQ, BGA, CTG, MAR, VLN, PZO, GYE and UIO; none of them really qualify as hub.
MEX is Northamerica, and in México I don't see MTY, GDL and TIJ as real hubs.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 17:22:46 and read 14959 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
The absolute right answer is LAX even though United Airlines calls it one of its hubs. The vast majority of United's passengers at LAX are local.

The definition of a hub is pretty ambigious in my opinion. It is what the airline says it is. If UA calls it a hub, then it's a hub.

Look at AA, BOS and LAX both have more mainline flights than does STL, yet STL is deemed a hub and BOS and LAX aren't. STL doesn't have any international routes either, yet BOS and LAX both do.

I'd still put my money on BOS.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: PanAm330
Posted 2007-02-21 17:23:50 and read 14956 times.

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 6):
The correct answer would have to be LAX.

No, it wouldn't be. United calls LAX one of their hubs, as many above have stated.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
Boston is a hub for jetBlue...

No again. It's considered a 'focus city' for them, in addition to a few more airlines (AA, US, DL).

The correct answer would be Boston- in the United States, at least. How about internationally? What's the largest city in Europe or Asia without a hub?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2007-02-21 17:25:35 and read 14935 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
I'd still put my money on BOS.

But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 17:27:45 and read 14903 times.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 27):
What's the largest city in Europe or Asia without a hub?

Are Nagoya or Osaka considered hubs by anyone? I would also think there might be half dozen cities in China or India with population 1million+ that don't have hubs.

In Europe, is Berlin considered a hub? Does Swiss consider GVA a hub too?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Marcus
Posted 2007-02-21 17:33:06 and read 14855 times.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 25):
MEX is Northamerica, and in M?co I don't see MTY, GDL and TIJ as real hubs.

MTY is the hub for Viva Aerobus
GDL is the hub for Alma and
TIJ is the hub for A Volar

I don't think anyone considers SAN as a hub, while WN is the biggest operator at the airport that is not a true hub due to their business model.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 17:33:21 and read 14869 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?

No. JetBlue doesn't have any hubs, only focus cities per their 10K.

So Boston still seems to be the number one choice.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 17:35:38 and read 14814 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 31):
So Boston still seems to be the number one choice.

Agreed. Sacramento would also be on the short list.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2007-02-21 17:37:36 and read 14820 times.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 27):
No again. It's considered a 'focus city' for them,

JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2007-02-21 17:40:49 and read 14741 times.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
In South America GIG is not a hub for any airline

Gol considers GIG as a kind of focus city as well as Tam, both nowadays use to keep grounded planes at GIG during weekends and holidays for contingency purposes. But you're right, and probably Rio is the largest city in the Americas without an airline Hub, also the largest city in the world without non-stop link to JFK and/or LHR.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
I fail to see how Webjet Brazil would have a hub in GIG. They don't even have enough airplanes to have a hub anywhere.

Under the concept of a Hub, GIG is WebJet's hub. They run more flights to POA and CWB than Gol and Tam together. But i agree that with only 2 planes nowadays, it's limited. Lets see if they really get more 3 planes during 2007.

Felipe

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: PanAm330
Posted 2007-02-21 17:42:17 and read 14697 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 33):
JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/

Give it up- you're incorrect, and many have told you so. One poster above even sourced their 10K report. I think the company knows what to identify their cities as, and they have- 'key cities,' or 'focus cities,' and not hubs. Even the airline's website which you've sourced shows (in the route map legend, no less) that JFK, BOS, FLL, IAD, LGB and OAK are key cities, not hubs. So, once again, Boston is not a hub for jetBlue.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 17:44:58 and read 14673 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 33):
JetBlue
Major hubs in New York-JFK, Boston, Washing DC-Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, Long Beach, and Oakland.
www.jetblue.com/

Their website says "key cities", not hubs, on the route map and their 10K aka as the Annual Report lists Boston and a few others as "focus cities". I can't think of a more authoritative source than their Annual Report.

So once again, Boston is not a hub for anyone.

[Edited 2007-02-21 17:45:37]

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 17:50:33 and read 14560 times.

Just for the sake of running this into the ground, here's the page in the 10K:

http://investor.jetblue.com/phoenix....BhZ2U9NDY3NTU1MSZkb2M9MSZudW09NA==

"We focus on serving markets that have had high average fares. We currently serve 50 destinations in 21 states, Puerto Rico, Mexico and the Caribbean, with 98% of our flights having as an origin or destination one of our four focus cities: New York, Los Angeles (Long Beach/Burbank), Boston or Washington, D.C."

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: GAtechAE
Posted 2007-02-21 17:56:00 and read 14509 times.

San Diego has a higher population than Boston if we take city limits only
BOS- City:596k Metro:5.8 mil
SAN- City:1.2 mil Metro: 2.9 mil

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Coronado990
Posted 2007-02-21 17:56:57 and read 14471 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
But you can't because JetBlue calls Boston a hub.. next choice?

Next choice would be SAN. Although Boston has a larger metro area, San Diego is technically a larger city. But what I would go by is that less than 1% of the SAN passenger count is connecting traffic. Almost 100% pure USDA choice O & D. I'd like to see if BOS could say that!

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: CXA330300
Posted 2007-02-21 17:57:17 and read 14451 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 29):

Are Nagoya or Osaka considered hubs by anyone? I would also think there might be half dozen cities in China or India with population 1million+ that don't have hubs.

JAL and ANA both have hubs in KIX/ITM and NGO.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-02-21 18:46:14 and read 13767 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 16):
Nonetheless, UA calls LAX a hub, thus, it is a hub.

There isn't a true definition of what a hub actually is, so we usually have to defer to what the airline refers to as a hub.

Why defer to the airline? Two airlines have exactly the same flight schedule at airport YYY. One calls it a hub and the other one does not. Does it mean one has a hub and the other one does not? It makes no sense to defer to the airline.

I don't let a company define what I regard as butter, car, airplane. Why would I let a company define what I regard as a hub?

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
Look at AA, BOS and LAX both have more mainline flights than does STL, yet STL is deemed a hub and BOS and LAX aren't. STL doesn't have any international routes either, yet BOS and LAX both do.

I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 18:55:10 and read 13639 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why defer to the airline?

Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.

There is only one reason AA calls STL a hub: becuase they can. More to the point: whatever criteria AA uses to call an operation a hub, STL apparantly falls within it. It's by AA's definition, not the industry's and surely not anyone's opinion on A.net. It's not political, it's not based on the number of passengers; it's because they want to, and it's as simple as that. The same rationale applies to AA's operation at LAX: they have their own terminal, their own custom facilities, an Eagle operation, connections, yet AA does not consider LAX a hub. Why? Because they choose not to.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-02-21 19:01:38 and read 13554 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):

you do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

the largest city without a hub is most definitely in china. any chinese airnetters want to give a guess?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2007-02-21 19:11:35 and read 13412 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why would I let a company define what I regard as a hub?

Because what you regard is irrelevant, really. A hub is what the airlines say is a hub, not what you say is a hub. If United says Los Angeles is a hub, which it clearly is, then it is.

I don't mean that in any sort of derogatory or mean manner, but it is true.

NS

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 19:13:02 and read 13393 times.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 43):
ou do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

But, the metro area has about 5.8 million people.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 37):
with 98% of our flights having as an origin or destination one of our four focus cities: New York, Los Angeles (Long Beach/Burbank), Boston or Washington, D.C



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
Why defer to the airline?

I kind of agree with this point. Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK?? I have connected through JFK on B6 many times. I would say that BOS isn't a hub for B6. To have a hub, you have to have spokes. BOS has no real spokes for B6. It seems to be all O&D. Just an uneducated opinion.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-02-21 19:18:39 and read 13269 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 42):
Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

Correct, there is no official definition, but you, like me, have your opinion - and you've chosen to let the airlines individually decide for you. That makes little sense when we compare the operation of multiple airlines.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 19:20:09 and read 13247 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK??

I would argue that JFK is not a hub for B6 because Jetblue doesn't refer to it as a hub. And guess what? I have con ected numerous times in PHX, OAK, LAS on WN and nobody can argue those are all significant operations for Southwest - but they are not WN hubs becuase Southwest doesn't refer them as hubs..

I apologize if my tone is coming across as disrepectful, but this topic can be argued ad naseum. The definition of a hub is really as simple as what the airline wishes to call it.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: SlcDeltaRUmd11
Posted 2007-02-21 19:27:09 and read 13134 times.

what about STL is that really a tecnically a "hub" for american airlines???? oviously it was a huge hub for TWA but AA in STL is a joke now

maybe PIT should be on the list now that its a focus city for USair

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 19:30:31 and read 13070 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 41):
I can think of two reasons why STL may be called a hub by AA. One is political. The other one (legit) is that possibly a lot of AA passengers still use STL to connect.

Functionally, it's no more a hub than LAX or BOS is. One could argue that since LAX has a sizable Eagle operation, more mainline flights to more cities, and international service, it is more of a hub than STL. Hence why I pointed out the paradox.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 42):
Because there is no industry standard, no "official" definition of a hub, with specific cirteria etc. In my opinion, a hub is nothing more than a marketing term used to identify a key city of operation in which a given airline schedules a high percentage of their flights. It may or may not consist of connecting banks. it's up to the airline to identify such operations as "hubs."

I agree. Since there are no hard and fast rules for what is deemed a hub and what isn't and the fact that it's so ambigious, it's really determined by what the airline determines is a hub and what isn't.

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Can anyone really argue that B6 doesn't have a "hub" in JFK??

Not to sound like a broken record but, maybe because B6 themselves doesn't consider JFK a hub? Can you really argue that JFK is a hub versus a focus city as B6 classifies it? B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct? By that definition doesn't that preclude any actual hubs?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 19:34:53 and read 13014 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 47):
The definition of a hub is really as simple as what the airline wishes to call it.

I think that is a matter of opinion. I would say that WN has hubs in MCO, BWI, MDW, PHX, OAK, DAL, and HOU etc..... One of the biggest factors I would look at is whether or not they base flight crews there. By your arugument CO could just come out tomorrow and say IAH isn't a hub anymore, and not decrease flights and you would say, "yeah it isn't a hub". I mean, if it all goes off what the airline says..... Because they always frame everything with accuracy? I think not.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-02-21 19:36:21 and read 12817 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 46):
Correct, there is no official definition, but you, like me, have your opinion - and you've chosen to let the airlines individually decide for you. That makes little sense when we compare the operation of multiple airlines.

I acutally agree. if there was a standard, then this discussion would be a lot less complicated. It does make it difficult to have an "apples-to-apples" comparision when the variables are not consistant.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 19:46:18 and read 12653 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 49):
B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct?

I don't really think that they are P2P to the point that they can be compared to WN. The majority of B6's flights begin or end at JFK.

I guess this really gets down to the definition of a "hub". There really is no set definition. That said, I don't think it is only a hub when the airline says it is. That implies that there is no quality individual to a "hub" outside of its title. AA could come along and say DSM is a hub. They wouldn't, but if they did, would you argue with me that it is?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: CRGsFuture
Posted 2007-02-21 19:47:18 and read 12659 times.

Quoting 777STL:
Not to sound like a broken record but, maybe because B6 themselves doesn't consider JFK a hub? Can you really argue that JFK is a hub versus a focus city as B6 classifies it? B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct? By that definition doesn't that preclude any actual hubs?

Actually on their website JFK is a "focus city". What does that mean? Well for starters its there main base of operations with every destination in their B6 system reached. On top of which they have New York Based FA's and a Pilot Domicile.

By the way WN is a point to point traditional carrier. B6 is a developing point to point meaning it will spread from a central hub and start building on it. Ala what WN did from DAL.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: HighFlyer9790
Posted 2007-02-21 19:49:23 and read 12627 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):
LAX is a United hub, officially. So that's out. BOS is a focus city for AA, US, and DL, but nobody calls it a hub, so my vote goes to BOS.

BOS is huge O&D....  checkmark 

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-02-21 19:57:10 and read 12497 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 43):
ou do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

But, the metro area has about 5.8 million people.

since when is this thread about metro areas?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-02-21 20:00:44 and read 12437 times.

my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 20:01:16 and read 12434 times.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
(in terms of population/catchment area, etc)

Since this I guess. I tried to talk about JAX based on the terms of city population, and was promtly corrected here:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 22):
Those kind of stats are always fun to throw around, just like El Paso is bigger than Atlanta and San Antonio is larger than Dallas. But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there." San Antonio is now the seventh largest city in the country, but the problem is there just aren't that many of us living outside the city limits in the surrounding hills.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: N200WN
Posted 2007-02-21 20:21:48 and read 12205 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 23):
Point taken. I was just throwing another city into the mix.

Funny how SAT wasn't thrown into the mix either.

BTW...your new jetway was just installed yesterday at SAT, at gate 9.

Edit: I certainly mean to come off as correcting you XJ, because you were correct in the first place about the size of JAX.

[Edited 2007-02-21 20:28:13]

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: L.1011
Posted 2007-02-21 20:32:07 and read 12087 times.

Here's the authoritative list, by size of metropolitan area.

1. New York - AA?, CO, DL, focus for US, B6

2. Los Angeles - B6, UA

3. Chicago - UA, AA

4. Philadelphia - US

5. Dallas - AA, WN

6. Miami - AA

7. Houston - CO

8. Washington - UA

9. Atlanta - DL, FL

10. Detroit - NW

11. Boston - B6?

12. San Francisco - UA

13. Inland Empire - ?

14. Phoenix - US

15. Seattle - AS

16. Minneapolis - NW

17. San Diego - ?

18. St Louis - AA

19. Baltimore - WN?

20. Tampa - ?

21. Pittsburgh - US?

22. Denver - UA

23. Cleveland - CO

24. Portland, OR - ?

25. Cincinnati - DL

26. Sacramento - ?

27. Kansas City - ?

28. Orlando - ?

29. San Antonio - ?

30. San Jose - ?

31. Las Vegas - US?

32. Columbus - well, Skybus

33. Hampton Roads - ?

34. Indianapolis - ?

35. Providence - ?

36. Charlotte - US

37. Milwaukee - YV

38. Austin - ?

39. Nashville - ?

40. New Orleans - ?

41. Memphis - NW

42. Jacksonville - ?

43. Louisville - ?

44. Hartford - ?

45. Richmond - ?

46. Oklahoma City - ?

47. Buffalo - ?

48. Birmingham - ?

49. Rochester, NY - ?

50. Salt Lake City - ?

IMHO, San Diego would not be disputed. That leaves two questions.

1. Is jetBlue's Boston operation a hub? If not, then Boston wins.

2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 20:40:29 and read 11983 times.

Quoting N200WN (Reply 58):
BTW...your new jetway was just installed yesterday at SAT, at gate 9.

Edit: I certainly mean to come off as correcting you XJ, because you were correct in the first place about the size of JAX

Don't worry I didn't take offense... you made a good point! I am gald we have a jetway in SAT now. There should be an announcement soon, but the rumor mill around the crew room suggests that SAT has been chosen over AUS as the second crew base for the XJET flying. We shall see....hopefully the local community in SAT will accept us with more open arms than UAX got!!

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: RDUDDJI
Posted 2007-02-21 20:58:00 and read 11816 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
LAX is a hub for United..

True, to put it in perspective...LAX has 8 more mainline departures a day than IAD. It's definitely not a "fortress" hub, but a hub nonetheless.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

TSN - Tianjin is slightly larger at 5,095,000 city pop...and by U.S. standards is critically underserved!

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: TransWorldSTL
Posted 2007-02-21 21:01:53 and read 11769 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
IND isn't a hub for anyone.

It also isn't even near the busiest

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-21 21:06:01 and read 11739 times.

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 62):
Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
IND isn't a hub for anyone.

It also isn't even near the busiest

However it is the next mega hub for FedEx when the new gigantic sorting facility is completed. This will be a major plus for IND.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-21 21:12:26 and read 11619 times.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 53):
Actually on their website JFK is a "focus city".

If you'd read what I wrote that you subsequently quoted, I said that.

Quoting XJET (Reply 52):
AA could come along and say DSM is a hub. They wouldn't, but if they did, would you argue with me that it is?

That's pretty extreme and unrealistic, wouldn't ya say? But taking BOS and AA for example. BOS could officially become a hub tommorrow and there'd be no difference operationally. In that respect, yes, I'd agree. This is why I contend that it's really based on what the airline determines its hub(s) to be. There are always qualitative factors here that the airline may have considered that we haven't. Future plans, strategic goals, political aspects, money, etc.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: A342
Posted 2007-02-21 21:15:28 and read 11610 times.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

Wikipedia says the population is some 9.1 million, but nonetheless, it seems you're right.

The next might be CKG.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: SWALoveField
Posted 2007-02-21 21:44:34 and read 11296 times.

Quoting AustinAirport (Reply 20):
Austin is a large city

38th largest metro area in the USA. I wouldn't call Austin a large city and it is certainly not the largest without a HUB.

Robb
Dallas, TX

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: CXA330300
Posted 2007-02-21 21:44:46 and read 11295 times.

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):

24. Portland, OR - ?

Horizon has a hub of sorts at Portland.

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
28. Orlando - ?

Allegiant ex-Sanford

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):

2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

No, Inland Empire is more the outer ring of LA.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

Wuhan municipality (bigger than city) total has 9.1m people, and no airline has more than a focus city there (CZ and MU have smallish focus cities at WUH). I think we have a winner.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2007-02-21 21:54:34 and read 11198 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA

IND isn't a hub for anyone.

Neither is PIT... used to be one for US, but they don't call it a hub anymore...

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
13. Inland Empire - ?

I never heard of this. Where is this at?

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
21. Pittsburgh - US?

Yeah, PIT is still a large base for US, but it is no longer a hub airport, and I don't think it will ever be a hub airport again...

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: B737700doctor
Posted 2007-02-21 23:27:10 and read 10152 times.

Is BWI offically a hub for WN?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: L.1011
Posted 2007-02-21 23:40:52 and read 10016 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 68):
I never heard of this. Where is this at?

The Inland Empire is the most inland part of urbanized Southern California. It includes places like Riverside, San Bernadino, and Ontario. As you can see above, there is some controversy over whether it's part of Metro LA or not.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Bimmerkid19
Posted 2007-02-21 23:42:24 and read 9980 times.

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 3):
SIN is hub for Singapore Airlines and KUL for Malaysia Airlines...

i was referring to European Airlines that use them for dual destination flights. i.e for flights out of SIN and KUL you can buy a ticket for only fra to sin, LHR to sin, and LHR to hkg; on QF as well as also on KL you can also just buy a ticket KUL to JKT if you wish. This is what I meant. I am very aware that SIN and KUL are hubs.. but they arent hubs for QF and KL. The same is true for EK at several airports in Asia that have service to Downunder via them. You can also just buy a ticket from those airports to where they fly to in Australia or New Zealand... this is what i was getting at.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: FlyLKU
Posted 2007-02-21 23:45:22 and read 9956 times.

Definition of Hub: Airport to be avoided - unless you're just there to take pictures and post them on this web site.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-22 00:21:38 and read 9710 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 64):
That's pretty extreme and unrealistic, wouldn't ya say?

Of course it is extreme and unrealistic. I am just making a point. If the only definition of a hub is: "The airline calls it a hub", then "hub" really means nothing.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: DeltaJet757
Posted 2007-02-22 01:02:55 and read 9236 times.

What about STL when TW left?

-DeltaJet757

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Naritaflyer
Posted 2007-02-22 01:30:58 and read 8979 times.

How about YUL? This is not a hub of any airline. Given that it's a big city naturally there are several flights by AC but the city is not a hub of any airline.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-02-22 02:29:15 and read 8481 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 73):
Of course it is extreme and unrealistic. I am just making a point. If the only definition of a hub is: "The airline calls it a hub", then "hub" really means nothing.

And if every airport where one can make a connection is deemed a hub, then "hub" also means nothing.

You can't quantify what a hub is. It's a classification deemed by the airline. Where does a focus city end and a hub begin?

Quoting XJET (Reply 73):
Of course it is extreme and unrealistic.

Sounds rather silly and doesn't lend you any credibility.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Stylo777
Posted 2007-02-22 02:44:26 and read 8327 times.

I would also add ESB / Ankara in Turkey to that list. A population of more than 4,3 mio and the capital city of Turkey, but no hub for any airline.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Lemurs
Posted 2007-02-22 03:56:53 and read 7787 times.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 67):
Horizon has a hub of sorts at Portland.

They don't operate mainline aircraft though. I'm not sure if that discounts them necessarily, but certainly you could say PDX is a large city without a mainline operator using it as a hub.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-02-22 04:05:57 and read 7723 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 76):
Sounds rather silly and doesn't lend you any credibility.

Well 777STL, I am sorry that you, the "Webster of Aviation", cannot accept any input I may have on this topic. I didn't say that any airport at which you can make a connection is a hub. I was illustrating a point. But like the best editors at the New York Times, you have managed to take my statements out of context. I am going to end this debate with you, since obviously you are all-knowing. I have been defeated, and I apologize for my silliness.  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: EI A330-200
Posted 2007-02-22 04:18:51 and read 7622 times.

I'm pretty sure PDX also recieves mainline AC and offers connections between Mainline and Horizon.

Brian

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Ptugarin
Posted 2007-02-22 04:20:09 and read 7607 times.

How about Calcutta in India? It's one of the largest cities in the world, isn't it?

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Lemurs
Posted 2007-02-22 04:27:53 and read 7573 times.

They do, but there are a grand total of maybe 8 or 10 destinations that AS servers out of PDX, including SEA itself. It's not just one, but it's a stretch to call that a hub. It's a focus city at best for any other airlines almost. While you could make a case that for the respective sizes of AS/QX it would make a second hub, I think that's going a bit far. Just not enough destinations served. Still, I see how the argument could be made, for sure.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2007-02-22 04:55:08 and read 7379 times.

Not in the US (but enough int'l replies), but Tokyo Haneda (HND), which is the fourth biggest airport in the world in terms of pax numbers, is a non-hub airport. Sure NH & JL operate a lot of flights, but it isn't a hub either and neither carrier calls it a hub.
Tokyo Narita (NRT) is not a 'hub' for its two local carriers but strange as it sounds two foreign carriers call it home to a hub, NW & UA.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: AS739X
Posted 2007-02-22 05:32:41 and read 7210 times.

Los Angeles: United Hub

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_airlines

ASLAX

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Rampart
Posted 2007-02-22 08:18:17 and read 6499 times.

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

US Census Bureau now has a classification called "Combined Statistical Area". In this case, three metropolitan areas, the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, Oxnard-Ventura, and Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, are grouped in what most people would consider the "greater Los Angeles metropolitan area", aka Los Angeles-Long Beach-Ontario CSA. So in sum, I wouldn't consider these as separate large metro areas.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Cedars747
Posted 2007-02-22 16:02:38 and read 6219 times.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
Largest City Without An Airline Hub

With a population over four millions,Alexandria is the second largest city in Egypt without an airline hub

Alex!!!

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-02-22 21:52:09 and read 6033 times.

WOO HOO HOO WUHAN!

we have a winner.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Apodino
Posted 2007-02-23 07:27:19 and read 5884 times.

How many times do I have to correct people on this board? AA does consider BOS a hub, and their website even shows that they do. If you don't believe me I will provide a link to prove it. Note that BOS is in all caps, and that the footnote says hub cities are shown in all caps.

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/whereWeFly/maps/ne_us_aa.jhtml

Back to the original topic, now that we have established that BOS doesn't qualify since it is an AA hub, in terms of annual traffic, I would have to say that MCO is probably the busiest non-hub for anybody, now that DL has dehubbed it. It is a WN crew base, but no one has a hub here.

I am surprised no one has mentioned CMH. Since HP dehubbed it, its been a sizeable airport, and is Ohio's largest city, but no one has a hub here.

I would have to say though that based on everything I have read here, I would have to say SAN for largest non hub city in the country, and RDU has to be up there as well.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Rampart
Posted 2007-02-23 08:20:00 and read 5843 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 88):
I would have to say that MCO is probably the busiest non-hub for anybody,

Orlando is 28th largest metro area, behind San Antonio and Kansas City, neither of which have hubs unless you want to argue that Midwest Express has MCI as a hub. And wouldn't we consider Airtran as having an MCO a hub? The airport itself is undoubtedly busy, but that wasn't the question. The question concerned the largest city in terms of metro population.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: Apodino
Posted 2007-02-23 16:36:50 and read 5714 times.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 89):
Orlando is 28th largest metro area, behind San Antonio and Kansas City, neither of which have hubs unless you want to argue that Midwest Express has MCI as a hub. And wouldn't we consider Airtran as having an MCO a hub? The airport itself is undoubtedly busy, but that wasn't the question. The question concerned the largest city in terms of metro population.

I know that. I just threw out the traffic at the airport as food for thought.

Topic: RE: Largest City Without An Airline Hub
Username: AustinAirport
Posted 2007-03-03 03:04:22 and read 5206 times.

My Bad ,I thought I heard somewhere that it was the 16th largest.  Yeah sure


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