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Topic: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: N1786b
Posted 2007-02-27 06:38:41 and read 10745 times.

SNIP

SYDNEY, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. said on Tuesday it has selected General Electric's GEnx engine for its fleet of up to 115 Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) 787 aircraft.

Qantas said it had made an initial order for 45 aircraft ship sets, valued at A$2 billion ($1.6 billion) in capital and maintenance costs over the life of the engines.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...17_SYU001819&type=comktNews&rpc=44


- N1786B

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-02-27 06:42:58 and read 10729 times.

Well, someone has to say it: major win for GE and a significant market share boost

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2007-02-27 06:45:59 and read 10722 times.

Congrats to GE on landing another great customer for their engines.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Cartoonranger
Posted 2007-02-27 07:22:38 and read 10622 times.

HUGE blow to RR  Sad Well done GE. Can't help but think that RR need a big order from someone like BA and their long haul replacement to soften this one.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PEET7G
Posted 2007-02-27 07:40:20 and read 10576 times.

Wow... I never taught GE will land this order! Of course I always hoped for them, but never really believed they had big chances! I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Congrats GE on a grand race well fought, and to Qantas to their new engines  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Pilotdude09
Posted 2007-02-27 07:44:40 and read 10562 times.

Good news, i personally saw this coming.

Good news for GE and Qantas. Something positive for once!

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-02-27 08:06:20 and read 10527 times.

Congratulations to GE...I was a bit surprised at this win also....


....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Baroque
Posted 2007-02-27 08:11:42 and read 10527 times.

I wonder if somewhere in all this guff about performance and environmental impact if GE finance might have a paw in the takeover bid.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-02-27 08:12:52 and read 10528 times.

Indeed a major win for GE. Congrats to them and to QF, I really didn't expect RR to lose this one.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

On the bright side, if QF thinks they're not satisfied, they can still re-engine them with Rollers, thanks to the common pylon the 787 is due to use (along with the software mods that might have to be performed).

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: SixtySeven
Posted 2007-02-27 08:37:34 and read 10528 times.

GE stands for "good everytime"........

I remember doing a course at Long Beach on the DC-10 when a GE guy came in to give us the course on the GE engine. He said the GE engine was good for every start no matter the situation and that you would get a stabilized start in 40 seconds........ If you didn't, get a new watch.

GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Domokun
Posted 2007-02-27 08:58:11 and read 10528 times.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

... I just hope I am not near one if it decides to seperate into a smaller fragments (GE CF6-80A2)  Smile

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Zkpilot
Posted 2007-02-27 10:08:39 and read 10534 times.

This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PEET7G
Posted 2007-02-27 10:13:51 and read 10529 times.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

In that case... no surprise  Smile

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: NYC777
Posted 2007-02-27 14:28:29 and read 10517 times.

Well since QF selected the GEnx for their 787 it's a foregone conclusion that Air Pacific will also select the same engines for their 5+3 787s.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2007-02-27 15:46:27 and read 10407 times.

Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

Damn straight.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-02-27 15:53:23 and read 10386 times.

In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-02-27 15:54:14 and read 10379 times.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry

A larger feather in the cap of the people of Cincinnati, OH where GEAC is located.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Raggi
Posted 2007-02-27 15:57:02 and read 10374 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 15):
In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?

UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

QF was a major win for GE, for sure!

I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.



raggi

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-02-27 16:13:23 and read 10330 times.

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though

I agree with you, Trents for SQ's 789s. If SQ would select GE that would be a stunner. But then again, isn't QF's selection?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2007-02-27 16:16:01 and read 10316 times.

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

I certainly hope so, it'd be weird if UPS ordered 27 767s for FedEx.  Wink

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2007-02-27 16:16:23 and read 10317 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):

....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

 Sad No he won't be.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

I'll admit they are leaving Pratt in the dust. RR has a well respected product and loyal customers.

Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000. So it doesn't suprise me that QF went GE. Well ok, a little...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck...

If true (sorry, I don't have anything to verify), than RR just pulled a Pratt and killed off one customers loyalty for a decade.

The only "issue" I see with the Trent 1000 is the decision to have so few turbine stages powering the compressors. Quite bluntly, the low OPR from that decision increases fuel burn. So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls. On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE). I think this order was won on economics, pure economics. But if RR is playing tricks with QF (a la Pratt in their heyday)... Expect customers to revolt.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2007-02-27 16:23:15 and read 10292 times.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Not always... its really been just recently that they've added some GEs.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

Yeah, you will. Lots of them in fact. RR has always been very successful and a lot of people have selected their engines. The Trent is the leading engine on the A330, and was the leader on the 777 for many many years.

NS

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Raggi
Posted 2007-02-27 16:28:32 and read 10270 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
But then again, isn't QF's selection?

Well, it's not a total bombshell IMO. QF have GE on some 744s, their 744ERs, their 763s (excluding the leased BA birds), and their A330s, so they are very far from married to RR.

SQ, on the other hand will, when the 744 is retired, be all Rolls, except the 77W, with A333, 345, 388, 772/3 all with RR.


Still no comment from PM. Hope he didn't pass out when he read the news!


raggi

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-02-27 16:48:58 and read 10222 times.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls.

That doesn't exactly bode well for RR powering an airliner optimized for 5000+nm missions, does it?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE).

RR might just become a big booster of the 787-3 for Chinese and Indian domestic use...  angel 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: ZKNZA
Posted 2007-02-27 17:20:49 and read 10139 times.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

They are all good engines,just different.GE & RR are leaving PW in a cloud of dust because PW seems to be intent on focusing on military contracts.
I think If GE didn't demand exclusivity on the 777LR/ER programme, RR and GE would be more evenly matched with aero engine orders.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

How do you know that the Genx is clearly the better engine?Clearly you dont, because there are no aircraft flying with them commercially at present.
Until the 787 is in service for a few years, with a few airlines, you cant really comment on whats a better engine, as no reliable in service data is available.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

Yes you cant do this sort of thing, if you want to win orders
This is now a common theme in the industry aero engine makers are trying to sell a whole aftermarket package or forcing airlines to get their engines overhauled at "centre's of excellence" so that engine makers are making more money on after-sales support.
This is part of the way the MRO world is evolving, where scale is everything and if you dont have it, you will find it increasingly difficult to compete.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Boeing767-300
Posted 2007-02-27 20:02:33 and read 9993 times.

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
QF was a major win for GE, for sure!

I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.

I am not so sure. Given the success of the GE90-115B in comparison to Trents on 777s I would not be suprised to see SQ go for GEnx.

The GE exclusivity on 777X has really paid dividends with many large RR customers having to aquire GE (namely EK CX and SQ) in large amounts of 77W.

If the GEnx has the same durable economical performance of the the GE 90 then I expect GE to win the majority of 787 orders. There is no doubt the new GEs are gaining a formidable reputation.

QF have now ordered the right engine as well as the right aircraft. Well done, great for QF great for GE

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2007-02-27 20:06:04 and read 10525 times.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 25):
Given the success of the GE90-115B in comparison to Trents on 777s I would not be suprised to see SQ go for GEnx.

It was successful in terms of Boeing forcing the issue on their customers.

A lot of Trent customers will tell you they love their engines and would not have switched had they not been told they must.

NS

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-02-27 20:31:52 and read 10409 times.

Since it doesn't look like it has been quantified here, the market share of the respective engine options took a fairly dramatic swing with the Qantas selection.

BEFORE QANTAS SELECTION
Undecided - 168 aircraft (37%)
GEnx - 168 aircraft (37%)
Rolls Royce Trent 1000 - 116 aircraft (26%)

AFTER QANTAS SELECTION
GEnx - 213 aircraft (47%)
Undecided - 123 aircraft (27%)
Rolls Royce Trent 1000 - 116 aircraft (26%)

There are still a large number of orders pending engine selection, and new customers yet to be signed fo the 787 program. But with another 312 GEnx engines sold to power the 78 747-8 on order, General Electric does seem to be doing much better than Rolls Royce in selling their latests engine.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-02-27 20:32:06 and read 10421 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 26):
It was successful in terms of Boeing forcing the issue on their customers.

The engine manufacturers controlled the process, not Boeing. GE and PW demanded exclusivity and while RR was willing to share, they were not willing to help fund the 772LR and 773ER development (at least to the level GE was).

Boeing was only going to get one engine manufacturer, no matter what. As such, they decided to take the one that best mitigated the risk of the program, even if that mitigation was just development help.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Albird87
Posted 2007-02-27 22:00:17 and read 9889 times.

Quoting Cartoonranger (Reply 3):
RR need a big order from someone like BA and their long haul replacement to soften this one.

wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR.
(please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2007-02-27 22:14:59 and read 9727 times.

Quoting ZKNZA (Reply 24):
How do you know that the Genx is clearly the better engine?Clearly you dont, because there are no aircraft flying with them commercially at present.
Until the 787 is in service for a few years, with a few airlines, you cant really comment on whats a better engine, as no reliable in service data is available.

I was making fun of the fact that I work for GE (although a different business, so no connections)...

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: AA1818
Posted 2007-02-27 22:24:07 and read 9645 times.

Could their selection of GE over their long-standing engine supplier RR be an indication of more things to come...such as 777s or 748's which are exclusively GE??????

Totally Tropical
AA1818

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: BA787
Posted 2007-02-27 22:24:41 and read 9655 times.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE stands for "good everytime

and RR stands for Rugged + Reliable



Shame for RR  Sad They really do need a big order

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2007-02-27 22:30:13 and read 9603 times.

A big win for GE, I thought the Aussies owed us one after we let them have the Ashes back!

It is interesting looking back, that RR dominated the early orders on the 787, while GE had a monopoly on the early A350s (the first 120 deliveries?).

Subsequently, GE has dominated subsequent 787 orders (I was very surprised that they won most of the Chinese orders, bearing in mind all their A330s are/will be RR powered) but has gone cold on the A350. Their insistence on not powering the A350-1000 gives RR a great chance to be the main engine on the A350.

As SQ have ordered both 787 and A350, and bearing in mind their RR jv maintenance company, I'd be surprised if they didn't choose RR.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Jbernie
Posted 2007-02-28 00:29:36 and read 8756 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 27):
Since it doesn't look like it has been quantified here, the market share of the respective engine options took a fairly dramatic swing with the Qantas selection.

Thanks DfwR. I was looking for that info. I wonder how QF making this selection will influence the decisions of others. I don't see SQ being swayed from whatever is in their best interest, but some other airlines may go with the winning team so to speak.

Has Air NZ made any 787 orders or engine selections? QF going GE could influence them as they have been looking at reducing costs together of late. Or did they go 777?

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 33):
A big win for GE, I thought the Aussies owed us one after we let them have the Ashes back!

Now now, we obliged and played like rubbish in the one day final to help ease the pain of your Ashes performance  Wink

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-02-28 00:41:03 and read 8713 times.

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 34):
Has Air NZ made any 787 orders or engine selections? QF going GE could influence them as they have been looking at reducing costs together of late. Or did they go 777?

Air New Zealand was one of the first airlines to order the 787, well before QF made their order and engine selection. They have ordered their 787 with Rolls Royce Trent 1000 engines.

QF also ordered four 777-200ER with their initial 787-8 order in June 2004 that have been delivered with Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 33):
Their insistence on not powering the A350-1000 gives RR a great chance to be the main engine on the A350.

That's an interesting interpretation of the truth...  Wink

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Nirvarma
Posted 2007-02-28 00:48:30 and read 8633 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 35):
QF also ordered four 777-200ER with their initial 787-8 order in June 2004 that have been delivered with Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines.

I guess you meant NZ?

NV

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2007-02-28 00:49:45 and read 8632 times.

Still waiting on PM's response to these news..lol

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Korg747
Posted 2007-02-28 01:02:23 and read 8575 times.

Can anyone say 747-8?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-02-28 01:08:33 and read 8554 times.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 29):
wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR.
(please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)

I agree, AA is a loyal RR customer.

However, I still expect that GE will have a lead. Delta, the largest 767 operator, is likely to place an order for the 787 after they exit bankruptcy. Unless Delta and NW merge, I am pretty sure that Delta will choose GE. GE has been aiding Delta in bankruptcy, and in addition, Delta has some 777-200LRs on order which will use GE engines. Delta already operates many GE-powered 767s, while only the 777-200ERs are RR-powered. The MD-90s also use IAE engines, which RR is a part of, but the MD-90 wasn't offered with anything else. Delta's L-1011s were also all RR-powered, but once again, there were no other options.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2007-02-28 01:39:51 and read 8377 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
Delta has some 777-200LRs on order which will use GE engines.

Not that they have a choice here.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2007-02-28 02:08:15 and read 8261 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
However, I still expect that GE will have a lead. Delta, the largest 767 operator, is likely to place an order for the 787 after they exit bankruptcy. Unless Delta and NW merge, I am pretty sure that Delta will choose GE.

i would imagine whether they merge or not, DL will select GE for its 787 engines if they order the plane.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Luke7e7
Posted 2007-02-28 02:12:32 and read 8236 times.

size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2007-02-28 02:23:34 and read 8177 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 21):
Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Not always... its really been just recently that they've added some GEs.

QF has ALWAYS been a dual engine carrier since the B742s started arriving with RR engines. Then it was PW/RR, now its RR/GE. This order will keep it RR/GE because QF will fly the RR Trent on its A380s; 80 engines v GEs 90 engines on B787s ON CURRENT ORDERS.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2007-02-28 02:29:21 and read 8148 times.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
He said the GE engine was good for every start no matter the situation and that you would get a stabilized start in 40 seconds........

Tell that to those Pinnacle pilots.  Sad But that said, they of course make a fine engine. I just wanted to deflate their employee's puffery just a bit.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-02-28 02:38:02 and read 8121 times.

Quoting Luke7e7 (Reply 42):
size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.

The Trent has a 1" larger fan diameter (112" vs. 111") but as to their actual physical size including the combuster and exhaust stages, I cannot say.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Luke7e7
Posted 2007-02-28 03:25:13 and read 7894 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):

Wow! , that's really surprising for me , knowing that RR always had a smaller fan compared to the GE product (RB vs.CF-6 , and Trent vs. GE90)

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-02-28 05:33:39 and read 7378 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 37):
Still waiting on PM's response to these news..lol

I'm too traumatised to comment...  crying 

But it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now. If, indeed, they ever do...  pessimist 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-02-28 05:53:21 and read 7288 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 47):
it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now.

If long means never, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Signed,
BOE773

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Molykote
Posted 2007-02-28 06:51:21 and read 7118 times.

Quoting Luke7e7 (Reply 42):
size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
The Trent has a 1" larger fan diameter (112" vs. 111") but as to their actual physical size including the combuster and exhaust stages, I cannot say.

On a related note, 2.95m is the largest fan diameter engine that can be shipped via 747F (at least according to Nicholas Cumpsty's book "Jet Propulsion). (2.95m = 116+ inches).

It seems odd that he makes this assertion without considering the overall engine size (but perhaps this is a vertical limitation on the 747F cargo area - given that large engines seem to have less accessory hardware at the 12 and 6 positions).

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: JetMech
Posted 2007-02-28 09:01:56 and read 6991 times.

I must say I was really hoping for RR to win this engine order; nonetheless, congratulations to GE.

Regards, JetMech

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Peh
Posted 2007-02-28 09:20:21 and read 6961 times.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR.

This would have to be the stupidest sales tactic I've ever encountered.

"I've got a good idea! Let's piss Qantas off big-time. Really get under their skin. That'll certainly secure their long-term business". Idiots.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PEET7G
Posted 2007-02-28 10:25:06 and read 6908 times.

Is there a place, where I can check the current standing of orders with manufacturers? Not only with the 787s?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Timboflier215
Posted 2007-02-28 13:08:17 and read 6822 times.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):

Is this a rumour or were there reliable news sources or QF/ RR sources to back this up?

Congrats to GE. I have to say, I'm not too surprised - QF may well want to keep their option open regarding the 77W and 748, both of which are available solely with GE engines.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: TropicalSQ744
Posted 2007-02-28 13:42:01 and read 6770 times.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 25):
I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.

You bet. Their engineering subsidary has a joint venture with RR and HKAESL. As a matter of fact, I'm working there now.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000.

Plus, if the above statement is true, it would strengthen the case for a RR order from SQ since the 787s will be used on routes to India.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-02-28 17:06:11 and read 6640 times.

Maybe I missed it, but did Flight Global carry this story? One would think that a hugely important development such as this would have merited mention--even in passing?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: NDSchu777
Posted 2007-02-28 18:14:16 and read 6589 times.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 52):
Is there a place, where I can check the current standing of orders with manufacturers? Not only with the 787s?

PEET7G, the Wikipedia article on the 787 keeps a very up-to-date record of all the 787 orders as well as the engine decisions. You can find it at the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_787_orders

Hope this helps!

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-02-28 18:24:02 and read 6546 times.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 49):
On a related note, 2.95m is the largest fan diameter engine that can be shipped via 747F (at least according to Nicholas Cumpsty's book "Jet Propulsion). (2.95m = 116+ inches).

This limitation obviously does not apply to the Dreamlifter

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: ClassicLover
Posted 2007-02-28 21:32:04 and read 6454 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 55):
Maybe I missed it, but did Flight Global carry this story? One would think that a hugely important development such as this would have merited mention--even in passing?

Flight will hold the juicy stories until the paper issue, and then the paper issue from the week before hits the web site each Tuesday. So it will be in next Tuesday's online edition.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Raggi
Posted 2007-02-28 22:56:41 and read 6415 times.

Press release now on GE's website:


http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20070228.html


raggi

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2007-02-28 22:59:39 and read 6409 times.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 53):
Is this a rumour or were there reliable news sources or QF/ RR sources to back this up?

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2007/feb07/3548

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: ZKNBX
Posted 2007-03-02 05:30:15 and read 6181 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Trents for SQ's 789s

Quite possibly, but by no means probably... after all, SQ are flying GEs on their 77Ws aren't they?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Molykote
Posted 2007-03-02 06:22:35 and read 6145 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 57):
Quoting Molykote (Reply 49):
On a related note, 2.95m is the largest fan diameter engine that can be shipped via 747F (at least according to Nicholas Cumpsty's book "Jet Propulsion). (2.95m = 116+ inches).



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 57):
This limitation obviously does not apply to the Dreamlifter

Sure, but presumably this design consideration was due to the fact that regular 747F aircraft can be routinely chartered for engine failure AOG scenarios.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2007-03-02 06:54:32 and read 6114 times.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 62):
Sure, but presumably this design consideration was due to the fact that regular 747F aircraft can be routinely chartered for engine failure AOG scenarios.

when the 787 is in full production it is set so that they only need 2 aircraft out of the 3 full time. I will bet that if Boeing finds out that the don't need the 3rd to sub for the other two much or provide uplift, it will be allowed to charter out. Airbus does this with thier beluga when all 5 are not needed.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Ha763
Posted 2007-03-02 07:41:25 and read 6080 times.

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 61):
SQ are flying GEs on their 77Ws aren't they?

Not like they had a choice of engines on those 77Ws, did they?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Boeing767-300
Posted 2007-03-02 11:34:12 and read 6019 times.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 64):
Not like they had a choice of engines on those 77Ws, did they?

Too True! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The GE-90-115B is a remarkable engine as many airlines that have been forced to by GE are finding out.

Based upon the operation of the 777X powerplants thusfar it is highly likely that they would order more of the same  wink 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-02 13:28:58 and read 5954 times.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 65):

Based upon the operation of the 777X powerplants thusfar it is highly likely that they would order more of the same

"777X"? "Based upon the operation ... thus far"? "...would order more..."? 777-200ER? RR??

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Boeing767-300
Posted 2007-03-02 14:27:36 and read 5901 times.

Sorry PM perhaps I could have phrased that better. A RR 777 Trent operator that has since operated 77W (SQ EK even CX) would be more likely to order GEnx for 787 (if and when they do!) than if they had only operated RR. This is based purely on the success of the -115B which compared to the original 772 GEs Trents and Pratts has been ubelievably flawless.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-03-02 17:41:44 and read 5817 times.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 67):
Sorry PM perhaps I could have phrased that better. A RR 777 Trent operator that has since operated 77W (SQ EK even CX) would be more likely to order GEnx for 787 (if and when they do!) than if they had only operated RR. This is based purely on the success of the -115B which compared to the original 772 GEs Trents and Pratts has been ubelievably flawless.

I agree completely. AC went with GEnx on their 787s since their new 777s will use GE engines. In the case of Delta, even though their 777-200ERs are RR-powered, they are more likely to choose GEnx for their 787s, as their new 777-200LRs will feature GE engines. In addition, GE has been aiding Delta in bankruptcy, and it would make GE upset if they chose RR. Delta also operates many 767s with GE engines.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: NDSchu777
Posted 2007-03-02 19:07:33 and read 5764 times.

Between its first flight on the FTB and the huge Qantas order, this has definitely been a big week for the GEnx. Hopefully the program will continue the great success its had so far and GE will meet its ultimate goal of delivering a fuel-efficient, reliable, low maintenance cost engine on time and do its part in making the 787 a successful airplane!

As far as the Trent 1000 goes, it's a great engine from everything I've read. There are still 123 airplanes that have no engine decisions made yet. Also, speculation shows that over the next couple years we may very likely see AA, UA, and DL place very large 787 orders to replace their aging 767 fleets. Very many hard fought battles between the GEnx and Trent 1000 in the near future...

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2007-03-02 20:21:09 and read 5713 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):

RR might just become a big booster of the 787-3 for Chinese and Indian domestic use...

 rotfl 

Don't count RR out yet.

Anywhere where climb performance is critical (e.g., India to Europe) is a region where RR will have an advantage. Also, its about the range mix. Yes, GE will have an advantage on the longest hauls, but if the typical mission is "only" trans-Atlantic, than RR economics should be competitive to superior to GE. So its going to really depend on the mission mix.

That said, since QF is an airline with a long mission skew... this order makes sense to me.

Quoting PM (Reply 47):
I'm too traumatised to comment...

We're here for you man. Take it one day at a time. Get out. Use your support group.  Smile

Quoting NDSchu777 (Reply 69):
Very many hard fought battles between the GEnx and Trent 1000 in the near future...

Very true. Its not a given that GE will rule the market. Continue to gain market share? Possibly.

I do think this will force RR to look twice at their design philosophy on only using a single high turbine stage. As I look at the Trent 1000's design, that is the one "weak link" I see.  Sad As nice as the triple spool concept is, RR must overcome the pressure ratio advantage that GE has designed in. The improved component efficiencies of a triple spool help. But at some point, the basic thermodynamics will come back and bite you. (RR doesn't go for as high of an overall pressure ratio and engine efficiency goes up with pressure ratio. That's just a brutal fact of physics.) To get the higher pressure ratio requires another turbine stage driving more compressor stages.

Although... another high turbine stage might lead to such a high OPR for RR that Inconel 715 might not be able to take the heat...  scratchchin  (Inconel 715 is the metal all of the high pressure casing are currently cast from. No successor has been identified by RR for their engines as far as I know.) But hey, you can always cool the casing with fan air... Hey, that would require more engineers with my skill set!  bigthumbsup  Gotta love progress.  Wink

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: CEO@AFG
Posted 2007-03-02 20:31:53 and read 5691 times.

I read a quote somewhere obviously from an airline executive, perhaps here on Airliners.net:

"If I want an aircraft engine, I'll go see Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce. If I want a lightbulb, I'll go see General Electric"  Wink

Seriously though, GE has become the dominant supplier of engines. Is there a defining reason why this has happened?

Back in the olden days, PW was THE manufacturer of jet engines, however after the advent of the CFM-56 and to some extent the CF6, PW seems to have gone downhill fast.

A bit of insight would be much appreciated.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2007-03-02 20:35:34 and read 5689 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 48):
If long means never, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Signed,
BOE773

Did that crazy guy from up north get banned or something? Haven't seen him around in a LOONG time...  Wink

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-03-02 20:42:07 and read 5676 times.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 70):
Don't count RR out yet.

Never.  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 70):
I do think this will force RR to look twice at their design philosophy on only using a single high turbine stage...to get the higher pressure ratio requires another turbine stage driving more compressor stages.

Might they decide to do this with the Trent XWB, or do you feel they will just try and scale up the original Trent 1700 design?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-03-02 21:17:14 and read 5661 times.

Quoting NDSchu777 (Reply 69):
As far as the Trent 1000 goes, it's a great engine from everything I've read. There are still 123 airplanes that have no engine decisions made yet. Also, speculation shows that over the next couple years we may very likely see AA, UA, and DL place very large 787 orders to replace their aging 767 fleets. Very many hard fought battles between the GEnx and Trent 1000 in the near future...

As stated, DL will probably choose GE, while AA will probably choose RR. UA is a tough one; they are traditionally a P&W customer. UA operates 737s with CFM (GE/Snecma) engines, while their A320 series use IAE (RR/P&W/JAEC) engines. However, UA is speculated to either order the 747-8 or the 777-300ER, and that could definately lean UA towards GE for the 787, since RR isn't offered on those aircraft.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-03-02 21:33:13 and read 5648 times.

Quoting Nirvarma (Reply 36):
I guess you meant NZ?

Dooh! Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  Wink

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-03-02 21:44:16 and read 5653 times.

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 71):
Seriously though, GE has become the dominant supplier of engines. Is there a defining reason why this has happened? Back in the olden days, PW was THE manufacturer of jet engines, however after the advent of the CFM-56 and to some extent the CF6, PW seems to have gone downhill fast.

A bit of insight would be much appreciated.

GE has deep pockets and are not afraid to use their money. They were the only engine manufacture to develop an all-new, clean-sheet engine for the 777, whereas Pratt and Rolls Royce both scaled-up their existing PW4000 and Trent engines.

GE has also been one of the only engine firms who join in risk-sharing ventures for the aircraft they power. With the 777LR and 747-8, GE has invested funds in the development cost of the program in exchange for the exclusive right to power said aircraft.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2007-03-02 21:53:20 and read 5640 times.

In the end of the day, there are only TWO suppliers on the 787 and A350, so between them BOTH GE and RR should make very good business. If you told a RR exec 20 years ago that they'd be a solid number 2 in the market, with PW sinking, he'd had bitten your hand off!

GE has a clear lead on the 787, but then wasn't the CF6 the best seller on the 747, 767, A300, A310, DC10 and MD11 as well?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Pygmalion
Posted 2007-03-02 21:56:35 and read 5633 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 63):
when the 787 is in full production it is set so that they only need 2 aircraft out of the 3 full time. I will bet that if Boeing finds out that the don't need the 3rd to sub for the other two much or provide uplift, it will be allowed to charter out. Airbus does this with thier beluga when all 5 are not needed.

You will never see an engine carried in the Dreamlifter, no way, no how.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Pygmalion
Posted 2007-03-02 22:01:04 and read 5624 times.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that RR has had pressure on its cash flow due to delivery slides on the RR powered A380s. It may be that they are unable to swing as good a deal as GE to get those orders right now as their money is tied up in inventory for engines for the A380.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2007-03-02 22:20:06 and read 5603 times.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):

I'll admit they are leaving Pratt in the dust. RR has a well respected product and loyal customers.

Pratt shot themselves in the foot, it would amaze me if RR had been this stupid... whatever the mx they were trying to coerce QF into letting them handle, it surely wasn't worth 45-115 787's worth of engines.

Quoting ZKNZA (Reply 24):
I think If GE didn't demand exclusivity on the 777LR/ER programme, RR and GE would be more evenly matched with aero engine orders.

I don't know about that one. A large part of the 777-300ER success is the fact the GE90-115b performed significantly better than anticipated, adding several hundred miles to the 77W's range and decreasing its fuel burn noticeably. GE pulled a rabbit out of their hat with GE90-115b and I'm not certain RR would have necessarily been able to put out a likewise miraculously overachieving engine.

Also, engines like those on 777, especially 77W and 77L, have no other application besides that one. No matter how well 777 sells, it will never be a huge engine market, and if it were split 2 or 3 ways, it would be much harder to for the engine makers to recoup their investment from developing the engine. If it weren't an exclusive market it'd be hard to make money.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
Boeing was only going to get one engine manufacturer, no matter what. As such, they decided to take the one that best mitigated the risk of the program, even if that mitigation was just development help.

They certainly were not going to trust P and W on this after the embarrassment that was PW 4098. RR was not willing to share in the risk, GE was, and GE produced a phenomenal engine that has been a good deal of the program's success.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 29):
wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR.
(please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)

For every 787 AA buys with RR Trents, UA and DL will each buy one with GEnx's under wing.

AA's order to replace 767 and A300 will be large, and will in all likelihood include the RR Trent (even though they do have good sized fleets with GE engines, RR has been the flavor of choice at AA for some time).

DL's order to replace 767 and to provide room to expand will also be quite large, perhaps even larger than AA's, and will almost certainly be for GEnx. Given they are starting to take on a fleet of GE90 powered 777s, and that they already have large GE powered 767 and 737 fleets, GE is almost a certainty.

When UA starts to replace their 767s and some of their older 772s with 787, GE will also be the likely source of power. UA is looking to buy either 747-8 (GEnx powered) or less likely, 773ER (GE90 power) so GE is going to be a fact of life at UA.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 48):
Quoting PM (Reply 47):
it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now.

If long means never, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

At this point, bingo.

GE won 767, is only pulling further ahead on 777, and looks to be doing the same on 787. How they will do on A350 is yet to be seen.

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 71):
"If I want an aircraft engine, I'll go see Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce. If I want a lightbulb, I'll go see General Electric"

Hahaha, no. GE just makes everything. The X-ray machine at the hospital, NBC news, your store branded credit card in your wallet, plastics, electronics, locomotives, light bulbs, jet engines, and nearly anything else you can think of. They are a leviathan.

Even if GE does everything else, they still do jet engines best.

Heck, even military engines. The PW engines in F-16 and F-14 were replaced with better performing GE engines. GE's power F/A-18, F-117, and a host of other military aircraft.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Fruitbat
Posted 2007-03-02 23:42:59 and read 5569 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 76):
GE has deep pockets and are not afraid to use their money.

And there lies the truth of the matter.

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 71):
Seriously though, GE has become the dominant supplier of engines. Is there a defining reason why this has happened?

Not only are GE prepared to throw huge resources at programme development, and become risk sharing partners in some extremely expensive cash intensive projects, they are also able to call upon the resources of the rest of the GE organisation to provide attractive finance packages to customers. This I believe is likely have an influence on engine selection decisions in an industry that goes through regular economic "challenges".........

For example, think about the current BA situation regarding engine selection for their latest 777 order. Given the ongoing pension situation at the company and corresponding cash pressures surely they are more likely to order GE90s if GE are able to offer an attractive financing solution?

Given this type of scenario holds true, an interesting qustion for industry watchers is how much influence are the airlines prepared to allow GE to have, before they get uneasy about the potential reduction in competition that may eventually result?

RR and UTC (parent company of P&W) simply don't have the same resources.....one of GE's main strengths as a corporation is the fact that it protects itself from all but the most extreme economic fluctuations through its diverse range of cash-generating companies.

Just my tuppence worth......

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2007-03-03 00:21:04 and read 5544 times.

here is an interesting idea, nothing prevents them from taking RR engines unless they sign a contract otherwise. Since the inital frames are all for long haul operations, I'm wondering if the RR better climb performance might lead them to take a modest ammount of RR engines on thier later op

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 78):
You will never see an engine carried in the Dreamlifter, no way, no how.

Oh I highly doubt it too unless Y3 manages to sport some engines that make the GE-90's look small . However I was more pointing out that its moderately likely that the LCF's will at some point do some charter work for companies outside of Boeing or Evergreen. Still remains that any engine currently used fits great in a 747F or a AN124 which are common and would not require the big pile of money and time getting a LCF to do the job would.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2007-03-03 01:13:24 and read 5519 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 73):
Might they decide to do this with the Trent XWB, or do you feel they will just try and scale up the original Trent 1700 design?

Alas, I know no more than you.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 80):
Pratt shot themselves in the foot,

And reloaded and fired again.  cry 

They'll be back... but when? On what?

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-03 03:40:13 and read 5475 times.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 80):
DL's order to replace 767 and to provide room to expand will also be quite large, perhaps even larger than AA's, and will almost certainly be for GEnx. Given they are starting to take on a fleet of GE90 powered 777s, and that they already have large GE powered 767 and 737 fleets, GE is almost a certainty.

So how come DL chose RR for their 777-200ERs when they already operated CF6s and PW4000s? For that matter, how come SQ bought Trents for their 777-200ERs when they had PW on everything else? Or EK NOT choosing RR for their A380s? I don't always buy the argument that the presence - or even dominance - of one engine manufacturer virtually guarantees that all subsequent orders are a foregone conclusion. From what Lightsaber is saying above, the Trent 1000 would be a better engine for DL on trans-America and trans-Atlantic routes than the GEnx.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 70):
We're here for you man. Take it one day at a time. Get out. Use your support group.

The doctors say I can start taking some light exercise again and they've reduced my medication. I'm still not allowed any sharp objects but I'm no longer on 24-hour watch. Their biggest fear now is that I stumble upon a picture of a kangaroo and go into relapse...

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2007-03-03 05:21:28 and read 5439 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 84):
Their biggest fear now is that I stumble upon a picture of a kangaroo and go into relapse...

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting PM (Reply 84):
how come SQ bought Trents for their 777-200ERs when they had PW on everything else?

A tough fought contract where Pratt refused to cut the price to anything attractive... not to mention RR listened to their customers and delivered the thrust/TSFC that the customer demanded.

The PW4098 was one of the times Pratt shot themselves in the foot...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Luke7e7
Posted 2007-03-03 05:41:02 and read 5417 times.

"If I want an aircraft engine, I'll go see Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce. If I want a lightbulb, I'll go see General Electric"


 laughing   laughing   laughing   laughing 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2007-03-03 05:44:28 and read 5411 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 84):
So how come DL chose RR for their 777-200ERs when they already operated CF6s and PW4000s? For that matter, how come SQ bought Trents for their 777-200ERs when they had PW on everything else? Or EK NOT choosing RR for their A380s? I don't always buy the argument that the presence - or even dominance - of one engine manufacturer virtually guarantees that all subsequent orders are a foregone conclusion. From what Lightsaber is saying above, the Trent 1000 would be a better engine for DL on trans-America and trans-Atlantic routes than the GEnx.

DL chose RR because at the time, it was the best engine on the 777. GE's -94B came out and the rest is history...

DL is going with GE on the -LRs because they do not have a choice. GE will win a 787 order from Delta if Delta does order the 787.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-03 06:30:44 and read 5396 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 87):
DL chose RR because at the time, it was the best engine on the 777.



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 87):
GE's -94B came out and the rest is history...

Meaning what, exactly? I assume you mean that it stole the market. Well, GE winning the AF and KL orders was hardly a coup (!) and after that we've got JAL (a long-term GE customer), Alitalia (ditto), Aeromexico, TAAG, PIA and Vietnam Airlines. In fact, the GE90-94B is on 61 777s so far delivered whereas the Trent 892 (which DL chose) is on 151. For what it's worth, the -94B is outsold even by the GE90-92 which is on 68 777s. Moreover, KQ and NZ (both GE operators) chose the Trent after the GE90-94B was available. "The rest is history..."? Indeed! (What's so special about the -94B???)

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 87):

DL is going with GE on the -LRs because they do not have a choice.



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 87):
GE will win a 787 order from Delta if Delta does order the 787.

Aren't you going to offer even a scrap of argument as to why?

[Edited 2007-03-03 06:38:42]

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2007-03-03 06:35:24 and read 5390 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 88):
"The rest is history..."? Indeed! (What's so special about the -94B???)

the engine was further developed into the -115/110...we all know what those beasts are capable of.

Quoting PM (Reply 88):
Aren't you going to offer even a scrap of argument as to why?

Do i ever?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-03 06:41:12 and read 5376 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 89):
the engine was further developed into the -115/110...we all know what those beasts are capable of.

Er, yes, but it's not immediately obvious what that has to do with DL buying Trent 892s, then GE launching the -94B (which DL didn't buy), then ... er - you've lost me!

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 89):
Do i ever?

Good answer!  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2007-03-03 06:53:28 and read 5369 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 90):
Er, yes, but it's not immediately obvious what that has to do with DL buying Trent 892s, then GE launching the -94B (which DL didn't buy), then ... er - you've lost me!

DL ordered 777s b4 the 94B was available. At the time the T892 was teh best engine for the Tri-7.

Had the 94B been available, it would have been interesting to see which GE woulda gone wit

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-03 07:00:49 and read 5356 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 91):
Had the 94B been available, it would have been interesting to see which GE woulda gone wit

Very. (And something tells me our best guesses won't agree...  Wink )

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2007-03-03 07:02:08 and read 5357 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 82):
Since the inital frames are all for long haul operations,

Where did you get this from? The initial frames are one for one replacement of current B767s. They fly everything from the 1:10 hour MEL-SYD sector to the 10:35 hour HNL-SYD sector. It is likely in fact that the first frames will replace the 7 B767-336 QF have on lease, which fly mainly domestic and some Tasman operations.

The JQ one are of course different, but are only ten out of the 45 on firm order.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Baroque
Posted 2007-03-03 08:24:46 and read 5331 times.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000. So it doesn't surprise me that QF went GE. Well ok, a little...



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 70):
Anywhere where climb performance is critical (e.g., India to Europe) is a region where RR will have an advantage. Also, its about the range mix. Yes, GE will have an advantage on the longest hauls, but if the typical mission is "only" trans-Atlantic, than RR economics should be competitive to superior to GE. So its going to really depend on the mission mix.

XT6W then draws from this the suggestion that if it really is long distance performance that has resulted in the GE engine being chosen, then the same logic would indicate some Rollers for the Asian routes. Continental drift is a fact, but many Asian routes are well under that 5000 nm and the drift will just subtract about 4cms a year!

But a question arises, if (as Qantas does) you have a mix of routes, how do the maths work out averaging some shorter stages with some longer stages? If the GE is superior only at 5000nm +, you would think that few airlines are going to have average stages lengths (even weighted) over that figure.

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 81):
Given the ongoing pension situation at the company and corresponding cash pressures surely they are more likely to order GE90s if GE are able to offer an attractive financing solution?

Which might bring us to this explanation, that GE has made it financially attractive and I still wonder if the reasons might not be tied up in some way or other with the takeover bid. That is probably much like an iceberg and I for one would really really like to know what is in the 90% that is hidden below the water.

Is it just me, or are RR now showing less information on the Trent XWB than they did the last time I looked? Now they have no stages configuration and no mass flow information. I thought I had seem stages in an earlier version (which I failed to save) and some strange wording about some magic they were going to weave over and above the basic number of stages of compressors and turbines.

If RR have vagued it up, that might indeed suggest that the configuration of the Trent XWB might be a bit different to the Trent 1000.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2007-03-03 10:03:58 and read 5297 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 93):
Where did you get this from? The initial frames are one for one replacement of current B767s

but they are not, They have stated that the inital frames will be going to jetstar to start long haul operations. Rumors being this means America. Possibly later frames will start into the shorter haul flights, but I'm guessing the GE's actualy have the advantage sooner than 5,000nm given thats going to be pushing it on a 788 unless you run passenger only, or lower density 8wide configuration. The "brochure" range is for 0 cargo other than baggage, so its possible, but tough economicly. Climb is also such a tiny portion of flight, and I'm guessing here but not a huge ammount of your total fuel burn unless you have really pushed the edge on wing loading, and using a Boeing style cruise optimized wing profile. I honestly can't see the GE losing to the RR till the range is below 3,000-3,500nm on the 788.

Given that they will move the more inefficent hulls to shorter and shorter routes to minimize the fuel burn on those, I don't see the 788 getting down to the really short haul stuff till closer to the time they take thier first batch of purchace rights, or are close to recieving the planes on option.


Anyway, Again unless they signed something there is NO reason they can not keep a small fleet of RR engines for short haul operations down the road if that would save them money. The 787 is NOT going to be a plane that ever has engines not common with your fleet unless you chose to have it that way. Lease a couple planes with the "wrong" engines? Doesn't matter, buy another couple ship sets and slap them on, when the planes go back, put back on thier origional engines and send the plane on its way. A bit of money to get those couple of ship sets of engines, but I'm sure airlines will be horse trading engines, or deals made with the maker for these kind of situations to make it economical to do this.

More over if there gets to be too large of an operating difference between RR and GE in terms of long haul/short haul, I can see many airlines switching to mixed fleets then making MX agreements with each other to keep the economy of scale that drives people to usualy operate only one engine make.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2007-03-03 12:39:13 and read 5245 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 95):
but they are not, They have stated that the inital frames will be going to jetstar to start long haul operations. Rumors being this means America. Possibly later frames will start into the shorter haul flights,

Miss information! I was talking about QF not JQ. The statement was that JQ COULD get the first 10 frames, according to JQ sources this is not yet set in stone. These obviously will be for longer range. BUT the frames for QF WILL BE direct one for one replacements for the B767s. When QF (NOT JQ) get their first frame it will quikly find its way on to citiflyer service fot training purposes if no other. The exact order of routes that the B787s will be introduced is probabley still being decided and will probabley change any way over the interviening years.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-03-03 14:00:22 and read 5209 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 94):
Which might bring us to this explanation, that GE has made it financially attractive and I still wonder if the reasons might not be tied up in some way or other with the takeover bid. That is probably much like an iceberg and I for one would really really like to know what is in the 90% that is hidden below the water.

Baroque, I realize you are just speculating, but one would think that with all the scrutiny that this deal has/is undergoing in Australia, wouldn't this have been revealed by now? Also, if GE is kicking in a buck or two, would this be any different than EADS' helping hand WRT US Airways exiting bankruptcy last year?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Timboflier215
Posted 2007-03-03 15:05:47 and read 5187 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 60):

Thanks for the link, but I was not referring to the order. Instead, I was wondering if there were any sources to back up the claim that RR were pusing QF around. I find it very difficult to believe.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-03-03 16:32:11 and read 5157 times.

Just a thought (and I'm not sure if it was noted earlier in this long thread; I didn't pick up on it if it was), could price be the "deal closer" here? We have two engine offerings that are favorably matched, but it would seem that the dollar vs the pound could be playing a very significant role, despite the fact that these costs are spread over long service lives?

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-03-03 23:45:41 and read 5061 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 84):
So how come DL chose RR for their 777-200ERs when they already operated CF6s and PW4000s? For that matter, how come SQ bought Trents for their 777-200ERs when they had PW on everything else? Or EK NOT choosing RR for their A380s? I don't always buy the argument that the presence - or even dominance - of one engine manufacturer virtually guarantees that all subsequent orders are a foregone conclusion. From what Lightsaber is saying above, the Trent 1000 would be a better engine for DL on trans-America and trans-Atlantic routes than the GEnx.

Delta could have also chosen RR for their newer 767-300ERs as well, but chose GE instead. Delta never really was a serious RR customer, as none of their 767s are RR-powered. In addition, Delta chose P&W over RR for their 757 fleet. With the L-1011s, Delta did not have a choice of engines. Most airlines who operate or have ordered 777-200LRs/777-300ERs will likely choose GE on a 787 order, even if their previous 777s are RR-powered.

Also, a second reason why Delta is likely to choose GE for their 787s is because GE has been aiding Delta through bankruptcy, and it would make GE quite upset if DL chooses RR.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: PM
Posted 2007-03-04 02:40:03 and read 5005 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 100):
Delta could have also chosen RR for their newer 767-300ERs as well, but chose GE instead. Delta never really was a serious RR customer, as none of their 767s are RR-powered. In addition, Delta chose P&W over RR for their 757 fleet.

My point exactly. Thank you. In spite of no obvious record of choosing RR and with large GE and PW fleets, DL chose RR for their 777s. Here is an example of an airline disregarding established providers and choosing the best engine in the circumstances. That is why I am less than convinced that all 77W will automatically choose GE for their 787s. Put it this way, if they do choose the GEnx it will be, I assume, because it is the better engine and not because they already operate a different GE product on a different airliner.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Baroque
Posted 2007-03-04 13:35:04 and read 4899 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 97):
Baroque, I realize you are just speculating, but one would think that with all the scrutiny that this deal has/is undergoing in Australia, wouldn't this have been revealed by now? Also, if GE is kicking in a buck or two, would this be any different than EADS' helping hand WRT US Airways exiting bankruptcy last year?

Indeed, just speculation, but it does seem to be the case that the financial underpinnings of the deal are going to turn out to be a bit more complex than understood to date.

The parts that have received some scrutiny may turn out to be the less important bits. For example, how much Dixon and friends are really receiving to sell Qantas may still not be known and while significant, may not be as significant as some other matters.

I don't have any difficulty if GE is actually giving a helping hand, IF (and only if) it is public. What I fear might be happening is that there are a number of under the table deals. EADS did do that openly, I would hope that GE makes public any similar sorts of arrangements it has with either Qantas or the consortium.

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Fruitbat
Posted 2007-03-11 16:47:03 and read 4654 times.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 99):
it would seem that the dollar vs the pound could be playing a very significant role,

I don't think this would enter the equation, both RR and GE sell in US Dollars. Although it raises the interesting side issue that RR suffer/benefit more from exchange rate movements as they need to convert much of their income to Sterling/Euro to pay their people, supply chain etc. But the principles of currency hedging is getting a bit off topic!

Cheers

Topic: RE: Qantas Goes With GE On The 787
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2007-03-11 17:11:21 and read 4636 times.

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 103):
I don't think this would enter the equation, both RR and GE sell in US Dollars. Although it raises the interesting side issue that RR suffer/benefit more from exchange rate movements as they need to convert much of their income to Sterling/Euro to pay their people, supply chain etc. But the principles of currency hedging is getting a bit off topic!

Not at all. Currency issues are important. RR has taken a small hit so far from currency issues because of hedges, but that can't last indefinitely. For a huge contract like QF, the hedges would have run out. But RR has significant US operations and is able to move operations to the US more easily under its own name.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/investors/results/prelims06.pdf

Our overall performance in 2006 was strong in an undoubtedly challenging year. The
underlying financial results were achieved after accommodating a further seven cent
deterioration in the dollar achieved rate relative to 2005. We expect to absorb a
similar further deterioration in the exchange rate we achieve in 2007.

We manage our exposure to the US dollar by long-term hedging. Today we have the
benefit of a hedge book of approximately US$10 billion, which means that we have
clear visibility of the exchange rate we can achieve over the next three years. Whilst
it is impossible to offset sustained dollar weakness through hedging, the cover we
have taken reduces the volatility that exchange rate fluctuations cause and creates
the opportunity for us to take other mitigating actions, such as cost reduction and the
‘dollarisation’ of our cost base.


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