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Topic: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: ZakHH
Posted 2007-03-27 11:55:52 and read 16256 times.

Some 2 weeks ago, Russian aviation authorities threatened to ban several European airlines for "safety violations" like "dangerous maneuvers" or flying over restricted areas.

Now Russian newspaper "Kommersant" says to have received a list with 16 airlines in question. This is said to include British Airways, Iberia and Germanwings.

BA is said to have violated Russian airspace when trying to avoid a zone of bad weather. IB is accused of having caused an incident of getting dangerously close to another aircraft due to flying on a wrong level.

In total, Russian authorities accuse the 16 airlines to have caused 18 safety violations and 5 flights over restricted areas from June 2006 to February 2007.

Can't help but that does not sound that much to me.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2007-03-27 11:59:42 and read 16250 times.

All I can say is reciprocity... If they claim that crap, lets ban Aeroflot and Pulkovo, too...

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Rongotai
Posted 2007-03-27 12:53:29 and read 16053 times.

The trouble with reciprocity is that all the power lies with Russia. Consider the number of airlines that overfly Russia on Europe to East Asia routes.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Thorben
Posted 2007-03-27 12:59:25 and read 16013 times.

Oh yes, the Russian bureaucracy at its best.

What have we done to cause this? Has Pulkovo been banned by the EU? Or the "airlines" of Gasprom and Rosneft?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2007-03-27 13:00:38 and read 16005 times.

If BA does get banned, will they be able to overfly Russia on Eastern Asian routes. If not, that will be a huge blow to BA

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Hotelmode
Posted 2007-03-27 13:31:43 and read 15891 times.

Theres ways round russia if they're playing games (adds about 90 mins to HKG maybe 2 1/2 hrs to NRT), Aeroflop etc will struggle to go anywhere worthwhile if banned from the EU.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-03-27 13:36:45 and read 15843 times.

Quoting ZakHH (Thread starter):
Some 2 weeks ago, Russian aviation authorities threatened to ban several European airlines for "safety violations" like "dangerous maneuvers" or flying over restricted areas.

This is just ludicrous bureaucracy! How many Russian airlines are they threatening to ban from flying? We all know what the safety & maintenance records of some of the smaller Russian airlines is like!

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2007-03-27 14:17:56 and read 15702 times.

hold on everyone...this is just a newspaper article, nothing official has been done yet, so everyone calm down, this kind of "threat" always happens, it's sabre rattling...

Russia makes a lot of money from the 1st freedom so highly doubt that they will block out those airlines, because the effects afterwards would be hell for everyone....

usually if you violate a safety zone or procedure your airline gets it, not the entire industry, so as i said, just chill  Smile

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Pictues
Posted 2007-03-27 15:11:22 and read 15532 times.

well look how fast russia backed down when canada reciprocated Air Canada's ban on using russian airspace, Aeroflot had to fy around canada to get to the west coast of the USA costing millions, soon after the ban on aeroflot from canadian airspace russia backed down and allowed ac access at fair prices

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OA260
Posted 2007-03-27 15:30:18 and read 15430 times.

Yeah I doubt this will happen.It would become a MAJOR diplomatic dispute between Russia and the EU and would serve no ones interest. Russia just likes to play games as posted above. Russia has more to loose and there are a few neighbours around Russia who would love to see SU banned.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2007-03-27 15:34:40 and read 15406 times.

Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 5):
90 mins to HKG maybe 2 1/2 hrs to NRT

However, if only BA and a few other airlines get banned from Russian airspace, then they will have a difficult time competing with the likes of JL, NH, CX, etc. as they will get that route done in 90 minutes less (HKG) and 210 minutes less (NRT) according to your estimations.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: NYC777
Posted 2007-03-27 15:48:26 and read 15320 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Yeah I doubt this will happen.It would become a MAJOR diplomatic dispute between Russia and the EU and would serve no ones interest. Russia just likes to play games as posted above. Russia has more to loose and there are a few neighbours around Russia who would love to see SU banned.

Yeah and then they might cancel the A350 contract and go with the 787!  Big grin  Wink

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Rammstein
Posted 2007-03-27 15:56:46 and read 15277 times.

This:

Russian aviation authorities threatened to ban several European airlines for "safety violations" like "dangerous maneuvers" or flying over restricted areas.

and this:

Quote: Jurnalo
Russia is likely to widen a long-running row over a ban on Polish meat imports by extending the trade embargo to foodstuffs from other European Union states

Does someone notice a common pattern?  scratchchin 

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Khobar
Posted 2007-03-27 16:06:31 and read 15206 times.

If the EU can ban airlines based on the age of the aircraft flown, why are people condemning Russia for taking similar action? There's a familiar ring to this...

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OA260
Posted 2007-03-27 16:18:29 and read 15146 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
Yeah and then they might cancel the A350 contract and go with the 787!

I doubt it , they could always build a copy of the TU-350XWB ........lol

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 12):
Russia is likely to widen a long-running row over a ban on Polish meat imports by extending the trade embargo to foodstuffs from other European Union states

We could ban Russian Vodka but I guess we would be the loosers there if we did.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 13):
If the EU can ban airlines based on the age of the aircraft flown, why are people condemning Russia for taking similar action? There's a familiar ring to this...

But SU's fleet is better maintained than PIA's!!!

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: YOWza
Posted 2007-03-27 16:20:52 and read 15134 times.

A friend of mine who works in ATC says he often has to deal with Russian pilots who don't speak any lanaguage except Russian to any degree of understandability. That would strike me as being far more dangerous than a small incursion into restricted space to avoid bad weather. Let's see what comes of this.

YOWza

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Rammstein
Posted 2007-03-27 16:31:57 and read 15088 times.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
A friend of mine who works in ATC says he often has to deal with Russian pilots who don't speak any lanaguage except Russian to any degree of understandability.

Do they have to use light gun signals to communicate? Big grin

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2007-03-27 16:43:33 and read 15031 times.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 13):
If the EU can ban airlines based on the age of the aircraft flown, why are people condemning Russia for taking similar action? There's a familiar ring to this...

Airlines are banned because of safety reasons, not because of fleet age. Iran Air regularly flies its 747-100 to Europe, so does UPS.

The only planes banned are those which gave safety concerns or noise issues. A ban without reasons would never survive a court ruling in Europe.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Hotelmode
Posted 2007-03-27 17:26:32 and read 14890 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 10):
However, if only BA and a few other airlines get banned from Russian airspace, then they will have a difficult time competing with the likes of JL, NH, CX, etc. as they will get that route done in 90 minutes less (HKG) and 210 minutes less (NRT) according to your estimations.

Having checked the charts, HKG could be operated avoiding Russian airspace via Ukraine, Georgia and the Central Asian republics. probably no more than 30 mins extra (which is how much faster a 747 is over a 777/330 anyway which no pax ever notice) NRT is an issue but JAL/BA are now partners so codesharing is no issue.

As I said its much much more of a problem for an airline who gets most its international revenue from the EU or by overflying it on its way elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Lufthansa747
Posted 2007-03-27 17:41:05 and read 14714 times.

Can't believe some of you take this sort of crap for real.

About as credible as LH announcing 5 daily nonstop A380s to the moon starting tomorrow.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: USADreamliner
Posted 2007-03-27 18:21:47 and read 13998 times.

Ha,ha ha!!
Russian aviation banning international carriers for safety violation.
Now that's hilarious... how hypocrites !

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: DZ09
Posted 2007-03-27 18:24:32 and read 13916 times.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 17):
Quoting Khobar (Reply 13):
If the EU can ban airlines based on the age of the aircraft flown, why are people condemning Russia for taking similar action? There's a familiar ring to this...


Airlines are banned because of safety reasons, not because of fleet age. Iran Air regularly flies its 747-100 to Europe, so does UPS.

The only planes banned are those which gave safety concerns or noise issues. A ban without reasons would never survive a court ruling in Europe.

What makes you think the Russians don't have legitimate reasons for their actions. You mean to tell me that western countries can do no wrong.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2007-03-27 18:29:49 and read 13850 times.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 13):
If the EU can ban airlines based on the age of the aircraft flown, why are people condemning Russia for taking similar action?

Well the MAJOR difference is that the EU ban is also effective intra-EU, whereas Russia potential ban on BA or IB smells with double standards and hypocrisy considering the junk that is still used by Russian airlines. If they want to be taken seriously with their "concerns" then they should clean up their own mess when it comes to safety standards (or rather complete lack thereof) first.
Of course I don't think you actually believe the issue in question is aviation safety (or food quality)?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
We could ban Russian Vodka but I guess we would be the loosers there if we did.

There's plenty of finest Danish, Polish, Swedish or Finnish brands

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-27 18:34:07 and read 13748 times.

The EU threatens every single Russian operator for things like missing handbooks of the Tupolev-154 in English (even though a Russian handbook exists for a Russian plane flown by Russian pilots).

Why should Russia not be allowed to speak up when airlines like Germanwings or Iberia almost crash their aircraft into each other in Russian airspace (with a possible damage to the people living there)?

Think about it before you start a "let's bash Russia" again...

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: DZ09
Posted 2007-03-27 18:34:32 and read 13746 times.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
There's plenty of finest Danish, Polish, Swedish or Finnish brands

You're forgetting the best tasting vodka out there, the french Grey Goose.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: MotorHussy
Posted 2007-03-27 19:08:49 and read 13216 times.

Quoting ZakHH (Thread starter):
BA is said to have violated Russian airspace when trying to avoid a zone of bad weather. IB is accused of having caused an incident of getting dangerously close to another aircraft due to flying on a wrong level.

Sounds like Russian ATC may have helped cause these "violations' to some degree; they're not world renowned for being top of their game now are they?!

BA incident - so Russian ATC deliberately guided the craft into a zone of bad weather.
IB incident - Russian ATC speaking English with heavy Slavic accent; Spanish flight crew with Latin accent.

MH

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: SKY1
Posted 2007-03-27 19:44:28 and read 13501 times.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
All I can say is reciprocity... If they claim that crap, lets ban Aeroflot and Pulkovo, too...

 checkmark 

If IB is banned to fly Russia, then SU will ban to fly Spain for sure.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
If they want to be taken seriously with their "concerns" then they should clean up their own mess when it comes to safety standards

I agree.

Russia has a sad record of air crashes due to a poor safety; definitely they can't try to give lessons to others ...they can't afford such luxuries.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
Why should Russia not be allowed to speak up when airlines like Germanwings or Iberia

It seems starting with a threaten to BA, IB and 4U for baning ops in Russia. I don't see the "speak" verb in nowhere  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-27 20:09:04 and read 13147 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
The EU threatens every single Russian operator for things like missing handbooks of the Tupolev-154 in English (even though a Russian handbook exists for a Russian plane flown by Russian pilots).

Why should Russia not be allowed to speak up when airlines like Germanwings or Iberia almost crash their aircraft into each other in Russian airspace (with a possible damage to the people living there)?

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As some people have said, everyone needs to majorly CALM DOWN. It won't happen. Russia is just speaking up equally like the EU has spoken up in the past. Again we see a major Russian accusal on part of a.net members. Frankly, lately this has been getting way out of hand.

Europe has spoken up on many occasions about equally dumb things regarding Russian airlines, so Russia is fighting back. Nothing bad done. As for the ban, it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

I'm really amazed, some of you need to wake up and smell the damn coffee.

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: UAL777
Posted 2007-03-27 20:15:49 and read 13051 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):



Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
The EU threatens every single Russian operator for things like missing handbooks of the Tupolev-154 in English (even though a Russian handbook exists for a Russian plane flown by Russian pilots).

Why should Russia not be allowed to speak up when airlines like Germanwings or Iberia almost crash their aircraft into each other in Russian airspace (with a possible damage to the people living there)?

Think about it before you start a "let's bash Russia" again...

You are right. My dad flies for UA and recently in his words had his airplane inspected by the French version of the FAA, and they in his words "descended on the plane like locusts". Long story short, they were on the plane for 45 minutes and even made the crew unscrew the registration certificate from the cockpit door to see the back of it to make sure it was real!!!

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-27 20:19:55 and read 12952 times.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 26):
Russia has a sad record of air crashes due to a poor safety; definitely they can't try to give lessons to others ...they can't afford such luxuries.

Poor safety?! Mhm... what an uneducated comment. For the amount of flights and conditions that the planes were flown in, I want to see the Western counterparts do better.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 26):
It seems starting with a threaten to BA, IB and 4U for baning ops in Russia. I don't see the "speak" verb in nowhere

And when the EU accuses Russian handbooks not being written in English, thats "speaking" up? WTF does the EU need handbooks of TU-154 if they don't operate any. It's a political war, and yet some of you are too shallow to understand that.

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 21):
What makes you think the Russians don't have legitimate reasons for their actions. You mean to tell me that western countries can do no wrong.

What makes them think that... is complete brainless reasoning. As I've said in the past, people just like the hype, everyone else is bashing so why don't we start. And there have been like 20+ topics on A.net in the past week that refer to Russian aviation as inferior and horribly unsafe and all that.

No one realizes how many more flights the TUs and the ILs have flown over their western counterparts. While the Buses and Boeings were landing on paved runways and normal airports, Russian planes were landing in crop fields and flying in the deep forests. Yet overall they are going just as strong. Russian aviation is a powerful thing, military proves it as well. But as I've said before, it doesn't really matter, I for one am happy they aren't flying anything Russian, they are missing out, that's it. And while half of the Western world realizes the might of the Russian aviation industry and is trying their best to get on one of the planes before they leave commercial service, the other side just sits and bashes just cause they have absolutely nothing better to do.

Aeroflot777

[Edited 2007-03-27 20:24:19]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OV735
Posted 2007-03-27 20:22:39 and read 12863 times.

Some of you are taking this wayyy too seriously. This is a Russian news report, which already should tell a thing about its credibility. Secondly, even if it is based on some bits of reality, it's very probable that they are quoting yet another ordinary xenophobic small official who would be happy to ban the whole Western Hemisphere, if it was up to him.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 19):
About as credible as LH announcing 5 daily nonstop A380s to the moon starting tomorrow.

And that has to be the single best comparison ever made  bigthumbsup 

Cheers,
OV735

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-03-27 20:23:15 and read 12927 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
Why should Russia not be allowed to speak up when airlines like Germanwings or Iberia almost crash their aircraft into each other in Russian airspace (with a possible damage to the people living there)?

What about an Aeroflot Tu-154 making 2 or 3 attempts to land on a taxiway at BCN despite the fact that other aircraft were using the taxiway? Forgot to mention...that happened with good visibility and during daytime. The ATC repeatedly told the SU captain to go around until he finally "found" the right runway.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
Think about it before you start a "let's bash Russia" again...

In my case this is not a Russia bashing, but the fact is that IB is ages ahead of any Russian carrier in terms of safety.

[Edited 2007-03-27 20:34:46]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: TommyBP251b
Posted 2007-03-27 20:25:14 and read 12825 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 4):
If BA does get banned, will they be able to overfly Russia on Eastern Asian routes. If not, that will be a huge blow to BA

We will have WW 3 then! Or the second cold war.

What did 4U do in order to stand on the list?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-27 20:28:56 and read 12769 times.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 32):

What did 4U do in order to stand on the list?

Don't even worry, probably nothing serious, whatever it was just gives a reason for Russia to fight back for the sh*t they were given all along by the EU. So it will all get resolved without problems whatsoever.

Aeroflot777

P.S. If the EU really thought that the TU-154s were unsafe and had a "horrible" safety record, the planes wouldn't be allowed to fly to many countries in European as they do now. The planes are passing inspection with no problem.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-03-27 20:30:34 and read 12732 times.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 30):
Some of you are taking this wayyy too seriously. This is a Russian news report, which already should tell a thing about its credibility. Secondly, even if it is based on some bits of reality, it's very probable that they are quoting yet another ordinary xenophobic small official who would be happy to ban the whole Western Hemisphere, if it was up to him.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 19):
About as credible as LH announcing 5 daily nonstop A380s to the moon starting tomorrow.

And that has to be the single best comparison ever made

To add to my previous reply, I completely agree with this. Big grin

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: SKY1
Posted 2007-03-27 20:33:53 and read 12688 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
And when the EU accuses Russian handbooks not being written in English, thats "speaking" up?

Anyway, a thing is "accuse".

Another one different is a threaten to ban operations in Russia. If it finally happen, reciprocity must be used.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-03-27 20:48:52 and read 12413 times.

Why don't some people on this board calm down? We do not know all the facts to the case and its seems prejudicial to comment on the intent of the Russian authorities based on stereotypes? Remember the Bashkirian Airlines mid-air collision over Switzerland ... and remember how most EU members on this board said it MUST have been the Russians at fault ...

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: AirEMS
Posted 2007-03-27 21:17:42 and read 12052 times.

Watch out what you say you could end up like some spies and journalists from Russia have!


Do any US Airlines fly to Russia?

-Carl

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-27 21:18:18 and read 12044 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 31):
What about an Aeroflot Tu-154 making 2 or 3 attempts to land on a taxiway at BCN despite the fact that other aircraft were using the taxiway? Forgot to mention...that happened with good visibility and during daytime. The ATC repeatedly told the SU captain to go around until he finally "found" the right runway.

I never said Russian airlines are perfect...but the rest of the world isn't either. I talked about the fact that the EU is pushing things into ridiculousity, as I said threatening airlines for nothing...so people should now not start screaming when the Russians do the same. And as I said...near misses are not "minor incidents" either, especially over crowded areas such as Moscow.

I witnessed the departure of an UTAir TU-154 the other day in MUC, there were lots of cars with inspectors turning up all of a sudden giving them a real hard time, delaying the flight probably for nothing (the flight in the end departed which means everything was ok).

I'm also a bit astonished by people here believing Russian pilots don't speak English. I know Russians who have never left Russia but perfectly speak English without accent...cannot say the same thing about my fellow Western Europeans...

As a Swiss citizen I live in a country that had too many accidents in recent years...and then we come up with poor excuses such as blaming the Slovakian pilot "for not speaking English properly" or blame Bashkirian after playing cards in the ATC room...I must say I am astonished and also a little bit sick of this arrogant behaviour. I am glad the Russians now also show how we misbehave.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: ZakHH
Posted 2007-03-27 21:56:37 and read 11511 times.

Calling Russian airlines and / or aircraft unsafe in general is certainly wrong and indeed hints a certain arrogance. Especially Russian aircraft are just fine - if they are well maintained, but that goes for every single plane in the world. The Tu154 is just as unsafe as the B737 with regard to the latest incidents in Indonesia.

There may be some CIS airlines (not SU though) who do not fully apply to international standards. Which is not surprising. They can be found everywhere in the world, and the CIS has a lot of airlines.

I'd agree that many Russians speak excellent English. Some better than native English speakers. But I would not be surprised if some ATC staff as well as some pilots may be a bit hard to understand - again, nothing that would be limited to Russia.

I can't judge if the steps that were taken against some Russian airlines are justified or not. However, reacting with accusations that smell a bit strange is not the best choice Russian authorities would have.

Anyway, I'd agree with Pilotaydin - there's certainly a lot of sabre rattling inclined, so this should not be taken too serious. And the last thing I intended was starting a "Russia bashing" thread. I have far too many ties to that country and culture to do that.

Basically, I was wondering about the figure of a total 18 violations of 16 airlines in 9 months. Leave all the background battling away - that number does not sound much to me. Or am I wrong? I mean, mistakes happen everywhere, and we're probably speaking of 18 mistakes (most of them probably not even major ones) in several thousand flights.

[Edited 2007-03-27 21:58:50]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Awthompson
Posted 2007-03-27 22:19:23 and read 11188 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
Poor safety?! Mhm... what an uneducated comment. For the amount of flights and conditions that the planes were flown in, I want to see the Western counterparts do better.

I guess that considering the spartan conditions in which Russian airlines have operated over the years, the sheer size of Russia and the vast number of planes that have been in service there, their safety record is not catastrophic.

I have high regard for Russian built planes. I don't think that maintenance was ever "bad", it's just that Russian airlines over the years have not had access to cash reserves that western airlines have had. Also considering the very low wages of Russian airline crews and other workers, particularly in the past, they should actually be commended.

I don't think however a country should be talking about banning airlines from entering their airspace based on single events. It would have to be based on track record over time. It is quite possible that BA, Iberia and German Wings crews have made errors, perhaps serious ones, but their safety cultures are among the best in the world if you look at the bigger picture. Again the western authorities would never consider banning foreign airlines on single events unless they were extremely hazardous, however bad track records in safety or multiple safety violations could result in serious restrictions. As already suggested, this is likely just some exaggerated media talk or at worst Russia putting out the message that it also has 'rights' in the aviation world. (We all know that western media prefers 'bad' news stories and scandal because greed to sell papers/magazines etc. comes before most other matters and ethics. Often not much space is given to good news stories which likely outnumber bad news events by at least 100 to 1. I am sure it is no different in Russia.)

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 27):
Again we see a major Russian accusal on part of a.net members. Frankly, lately this has been getting way out of hand.



Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
And there have been like 20+ topics on A.net in the past week that refer to Russian aviation as inferior and horribly unsafe and all that.

Perhaps on this site we are guilty of jumping to conclusions when Russian (and some other parts of the world) aviation is involved in any kind of incident. We should refrain from doing so for one reason at least that it is offensive to our good Russian friends who also enjoy this site.

Making informed remarks based on facts is however healthy and I would not refrain from doing that once the facts are made available.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: FlyMD
Posted 2007-03-27 22:26:26 and read 11064 times.

I really don't see the Russian government banning these carriers. While inability to fly into or over Russia would definetly cause some issues for these airlines, I think Aeroflot and other Russian carriers being banned from the UK, Spain, Germany, etc... would leave them in a much worse position.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Schipholjfk
Posted 2007-03-27 22:31:36 and read 11003 times.

This is a sheer example of Russia gradually falling into a rogue nation state displaying "thuggish" behavior. It's simply a reflection of Putin mentality and using muscle to acquire whatever one can... Yukos to continuous repression of press to consolidation of power by the Kremlin. Nothing surprising!

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: SKY1
Posted 2007-03-27 22:50:30 and read 10672 times.

I bet for the EU-Russia cooperation in many fields. But such cooperation is not possible if there is not a mutual trust, and when there is a threatened, trust is not possible.

Anyhow, I expect and I wish BA, IB, 4U and others European Union carriers can continue their operations and services to Russia with normality.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 39):
Calling Russian airlines and / or aircraft unsafe in general is certainly wrong and indeed hints a certain arrogance

Say that Russia has had a sad record of air crashes is not untrue. It's a fact. Fortunately lately it seems safety is getting better  Smile

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2007-03-27 23:02:34 and read 10504 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 33):
whatever it was just gives a reason for Russia to fight back for the sh*t they were given all along by the EU



Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
It's a political war, and yet some of you are too shallow to understand that.

I think we understand that perfectly well. Threats from Kremlin, coming left right and middle have been almost a daily occurrence recently. Welcome back to the CCCP, I guess  Yeah sure

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 38):
poor excuses such as blaming the Slovakian pilot "for not speaking English properly"

I don't think it's a "poor excuse" if pilot is not able to perform one of the things that's ESSENTIAL for a commercial pilot, that is communicate with ATC in understandable ENGLISH? Feeling handicapped by not having English as a first language? Well tough luck, send him to a language school or have him fly a cropduster in Nitra instead.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-27 23:06:51 and read 10481 times.

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 37):
Do any US Airlines fly to Russia?

Delta flies to SVO from both JFK and ATL, they are thriving on the flights. Very good routes for the airlines.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 40):

Perhaps on this site we are guilty of jumping to conclusions when Russian (and some other parts of the world) aviation is involved in any kind of incident. We should refrain from doing so for one reason at least that it is offensive to our good Russian friends who also enjoy this site.

It's not like it's unfair to us. I for one, could care less if people don't fly on Russian airliners, it doesn't affect me in ANY way. But it's truly unfair to the Russian aviation industry as a whole, which produced great airplanes that continue to run as smoothly as ever when properly maintained. I'm in no way denying that some out of whack airlines don't do they maintenance right. But to make statements such as, "I'm never flying on a TU-154 because I think it's unsafe" is totally dumb and childish. I can swear to all of you that Aeroflot's TU-154s are just as safe as any A320 or any other 737 flying around the world.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 43):
Say that Russia has had a sad record of air crashes is not untrue. It's a fact. Fortunately lately it seems safety is getting better

Again.... Please do some research first... Do you know how many airlines Russia has? Way more than 100 if not double that. Now what about the average other country?! When taking into account all the airlines and the size of Russia and the amount of airplanes in use, the statistics straighten out. Yes, Russia has a considerable amount of crashes, but when putting them against mere numbers... you get the point.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: MotorHussy
Posted 2007-03-27 23:22:37 and read 10260 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 38):
I know Russians who have never left Russia but perfectly speak English without accent...cannot say the same thing about my fellow Western Europeans...

Fellow WESTERN Europeans??

BTW, how much foreign currency does Russia earn from other countries' airlines using its airspace, ATC and airports? Presumably it's (collectively) quite a good foreign export earner. You'd think that the state would invest in their earner so as to improve their dividend by attracting more users to the improved service.

Regards
MH

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: KevinSmith
Posted 2007-03-27 23:31:41 and read 10156 times.

I find it ironic that the Russians are complaining of safety violations.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Dallasnewark
Posted 2007-03-27 23:31:55 and read 10160 times.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 46):
BTW, how much foreign currency does Russia earn from other countries' airlines using its airspace, ATC and airports? Presumably it's (collectively) quite a good foreign export earner. You'd think that the state would invest in their earner so as to improve their dividend by attracting more users to the improved service.

At this point, amount of foreign currency earned from allowing Russia to use its air space, is very minimal at best. As long as the oil and natural gas prices are high, the governmnet could care less about money earned from the use of airspace.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-27 23:50:25 and read 9890 times.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 44):

I think we understand that perfectly well.

I know you do, but many unfortunately don't.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 44):
ESSENTIAL for a commercial pilot, that is communicate with ATC in understandable ENGLISH?

Well let's not blame it all on Russians ok? I study aviation and am currently taking a class about ATC. My professor was a Air Traffic Controller for 36 years. He always tells us stories about international airlines landing in the USA with poor language skills. He always refers to Air France, Iberia, Korean, and Olympic. Those as far as I'm concerned aren't Russian airlines. It happens everywhere, quit blaming Russians for everything on this planet.

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: BAxMAN
Posted 2007-03-27 23:52:50 and read 9847 times.

It's quite right that Russia should wish to prevent the likes of BA flying in and out of their territory with plutonium onboard.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-28 00:00:22 and read 9546 times.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 44):
I don't think it's a "poor excuse" if pilot is not able to perform one of the things that's ESSENTIAL for a commercial pilot, that is communicate with ATC in understandable ENGLISH? Feeling handicapped by not having English as a first language? Well tough luck, send him to a language school or have him fly a cropduster in Nitra instead.

I was talking about the fact that the pilot's English was not the reason for the crash in my opinion but that officially everyone blames them for that as soon as something happens...English is not only a foreign language for Slovaks or Russians but also for French, Swiss, Germans...i read in forums where German and Swiss pilots don't even write correctly in German  

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 46):
Fellow WESTERN Europeans??

I don't want to sound rude but get a map and look up where Switzerland is buddy!

[Edited 2007-03-28 00:01:57]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: SKY1
Posted 2007-03-28 00:28:34 and read 9192 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 49):
It happens everywhere, quit blaming Russians for everything on this planet.

Well, your statement is pretty exaggerated. There is not a single reason at all Russia may be blamed in the international community.

But threats are never welcomed.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OA260
Posted 2007-03-28 00:38:14 and read 9072 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 51):
I don't want to sound rude but get a map and look up where Switzerland is buddy!

Err I dont mean to be rude either but you have the Russian flag next to your handle so one would presume you were reffering to ''Russia'' when you mentioned ''Fellow Europeans''. It is in fact only when you go to your profile that it states you are in Basel so I do not think your comment above was justified.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 46):
BTW, how much foreign currency does Russia earn from other countries' airlines using its airspace

Plenty is the answer. Money talks in Russia. A good friend of mine who is a Moscovite is always complaining about the corruption and hassle that he has going back and forth to SVO. Last month they lost his bags in SVO and when they found them the bag had been busted open and items removed. When he went to SU to make a complaint they refused to do so. Russia has made progress and I actually liked my trips on SU and the Russian AC but the politics and ways of doing business is still like the old days. I would trust the EU in any ban but I would not trust the Russian government as far as I could throw them and neither would most Russians.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Glideslope
Posted 2007-03-28 01:38:06 and read 8460 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 27):
As some people have said, everyone needs to majorly CALM DOWN. It won't happen. Russia is just speaking up equally like the EU has spoken up in the past. Again we see a major Russian accusal on part of a.net members. Frankly, lately this has been getting way out of hand. Europe has spoken up on many occasions about equally dumb things regarding Russian airlines, so Russia is fighting back. Nothing bad done. As for the ban, it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.I'm really amazed, some of you need to wake up and smell the damn coffee.Aeroflot777

5 years ago perhaps, but no longer. Russia is like a 16 year old who just inherited 100 million dollars. IMO, everyone should thake this threat very seriously.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OA260
Posted 2007-03-28 02:38:27 and read 7921 times.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 54):
5 years ago perhaps, but no longer. Russia is like a 16 year old who just inherited 100 million dollars. IMO, everyone should thake this threat very seriously.

Its actually very sad than anything else. People being poisened and journalists being murdered and TV stations being threatened!!! Its the normal everyday Russian people that suffer not the wealthy ex.pats abroad or the owners of football clubs and mafia businesses.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Coa747
Posted 2007-03-28 02:50:42 and read 7811 times.

The stuff that has been coming out of Russia these days is scary. While the world has been paying attention to activities of the US in Iraq the Russian government has been up to some very dubious things. Putin seems intent on pushing the country back into isolation and towards a resurgance in the communist regime. While this news report might seem trivial and probably without teeth when taken into context with everything else that has happened it becomes apparent that something is going on, just my humble opinion.

But it would seem at least when it comes to overflights that the Russians have much more to loose than the EU. As the EU has legitimate safety concerns to ban Russian carriers, and could do so tomorrow and no one would argue their case, the same can not be said of the Russian side. If this did happen you can bet the US would respond in kind.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Smashme33
Posted 2007-03-28 03:06:42 and read 7666 times.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 19):
About as credible as LH announcing 5 daily nonstop A380s to the moon starting tomorrow

Heh, I should return my tickets then!

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OlegShv
Posted 2007-03-28 03:52:35 and read 7308 times.

Relax, nothing is going to happen. BA, IB, SU, and all others will fly as they did. Not counting several posts from regular Russia-bashers on this forum, I'm quite surprised to see the amount russophobic people here.



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 25):
Sounds like Russian ATC may have helped cause these "violations' to some degree; they're not world renowned for being top of their game now are they?!

BA incident - so Russian ATC deliberately guided the craft into a zone of bad weather.
IB incident - Russian ATC speaking English with heavy Slavic accent; Spanish flight crew with Latin accent.

MH

How do you know? Have you actually been in the control room and listening to all the transmissions? Sounds like you made a lot of ASSumptions.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 46):
Fellow WESTERN Europeans??

What the eff is wrong with that?

[Edited 2007-03-28 03:53:13]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-28 04:45:14 and read 6939 times.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 59):
I'm quite surprised to see the amount russophobic people here.

It's kind of mind-blowing actually, but at the same time EXTREMELY funny to read. Let them continue being afraid, and pretend like the ban will happen. Only idiots will believe that it will.

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Hjulicher
Posted 2007-03-28 06:49:15 and read 6258 times.

I'm completely disgusted with practically everyone on this forum. Reading through the posts, it seems as if us (Anetters) are fighting our own war against each other. First and foremost, neither I nor you are heads of state of any country. I am almost certain about it. Thus, why are we arguing about something to such a degree that we are getting our feathers ruffled. There are several factors that need to be taken into account.

1) Kommersant - a Russian publication, has it's equivalent in the states: USA today. Yes, both papers give tidbits of information, but it's just reading material to catch up on current events.
2) Every country has the right to make warnings and threats. It seems lately that Russia must do whatever is in the best interest of NATO and the European Union, NO? So if it complains, it's completely uncalled for. WAIT A SECOND? Russia must defend its own interests first and foremost, IT'S A SOVEREIGN NATION, so of course it's going to complain, even if it doesn't get it anywhere. Secondly, life in Russia for most Russians has improved. You must realized that Russians aren't entirely a democratic people (inherently), and they are not used to freedoms like in the west. By no means is this a justification of what the government is doing, but there is little if any response to changes in the governments actions by the Russian people (I am aware of the recent protests... but this is a good example of how things are changing and where the future of Russia will be). However, if you were to take certain inalienable rights away from someone from the west (Impose 40 hour work weeks in France) the people would surely rebel as they feel this is depriving them of their freedom. I constantly argue that too much is wanted of country that just went thru a revolution 15 years ago!
3) Russian planes and Western planes all fly from point A to B. Designs, interiors, airlines may be different, but if properly maintained as they should be, then both planes get their job done. In a world that is shifting towards the western model of how things should be and a market economy, it would only seem appropriate that everyone adopt Western Standards on how to build planes, since now days they all land on paved runways in moderate temperatures and the western standard is most widely accepted. This in fact is a sign of globalization. So when the RRJ is designed, I think it is very understandable that it resembles western Aircraft since now it's being built to compete directly with them. Don't tell me the Koreans and Chinese automakers don't go to Germany, Japan and the US (to some extent) to produce their future cars. If they are to compete in a global economy with them, they must compare to those already well established in the market.
4) Interpretation is everything. Undoubtedly, whoever read the Kommersant article had to interpret it from Russian to their native language. Or if you're Russian, then you had to translate it into English. There are always nuances and stylistic phrasing that will play a part of the text. You can argue that good journalism is objective, but their will always be a level of subjectivity to it. Text written for Russians is going to have a different Point of View, so it might be written differently. It may merely be written this way so that Russian citizens see that their SU isn't the only airline (national carrier) that has problems. Even the world-renowned BA makes faults. But it's sensational and we all know how the media likes to be sensational. Give me one example in this world that doesn't sensationalize the media (and you better not say FOX NEWS)

I can't stress enough how childish it is to make an argument without knowing the complete facts. In order to write a well written essay or argument you need EVIDENCE, and as always our secondary sources of info. aren't always the best.

Take what you read with a grain of salt.

In the end, I'd be surprised if anything came of this. It's just the Russian government voicing its power and jurisdiction in response to foreign countries voicing their own power against Russia... It's all a a gme. And Russia isn't the only country that does this, every country does this.

I guess i'm finished with my rant now. Thanks for reading.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2007-03-28 08:10:45 and read 5831 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 51):
Swiss pilots don't even write

Off topic, I thought they wrote correctly, but they did not speak it correctly. But then again, it was an Austrian who told me that.

Russia can do ban those carriers if they like, but then it should expect reciprocity. If the infractions were minor, and it was determined that it was being to 'boost' Aeroflot, then I would be pleased to see the UK, Spain, et al, ban Russian airlines in retaliation. How awesome would that be!?!

As in most high-level pissing contests it would suck for the consumer...

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2007-03-28 08:28:40 and read 5742 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
Poor safety?! Mhm... what an uneducated comment. For the amount of flights and conditions that the planes were flown in, I want to see the Western counterparts do better.

Yes, it is an easily forgotten fact, Unfortunately.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 29):
While the Buses and Boeings were landing on paved runways and normal airports, Russian planes were landing in crop fields and flying in the deep forests. Yet overall they are going just as strong.

Exactly my point. It is almost impossible to compare let's say Tu-154 with B-737 or even better B-727 and the reason is simple. Manufacturers had different goals. In former Soviet Union, they needed a robust plane, capable of landing almost everywhere. Something that can carry lots of passengers for much less money than it was the case in the West to all remote parts of that huge country. On the other side, Soviet engineers didn't have to worry much about fuel consumption, because economies were quite different or noise regulations. That is exactly what they built. Strong but thirsty and noisy planes. In both cases, both Boeing and Tupolev did a good job, but their goals were different.

Personally, I'm really sick and tired of those comments about safety on Russian (Soviet) airliners. For xample, Aeroflot uses Tu-154 for as long as I can remember and not a single accident happened. My first flight was on tiny Tu-134 back in 1978 and, as all of you can see, I'm still alive and kicking Big grin At one point, aviation in Russia did suffer from same things like the whole society: lack of funds, a bit of disorientation and some negligence. Yes, let's face it, there were some horrible accidents in the past that might have been avoided, but the good thing is that Russian aviation authorities are doing much better job today than 15 or 10 years ago. They even banned some of their own airlines from flying to EU because of safety regulations and they didn't wait EU or somebody else to complain. Generally, I think that situation is improving. If it is not the case, why would Sky Team allow SU to join them? Do you think they need some unsafe airline to blow them away?

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 33):
If the EU really thought that the TU-154s were unsafe and had a "horrible" safety record, the planes wouldn't be allowed to fly to many countries in European as they do now.

Exactly.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 39):
Calling Russian airlines and / or aircraft unsafe in general is certainly wrong and indeed hints a certain arrogance. Especially Russian aircraft are just fine - if they are well maintained, but that goes for every single plane in the world. The Tu154 is just as unsafe as the B737 with regard to the latest incidents in Indonesia.

Let's face it, Tu-154s are in service since 1970s. It's a long period of time and accidents are almost inevitable. Let's compare it with 737s?

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 49):
It happens everywhere, quit blaming Russians for everything on this planet.

Hmmm, I have some crazy neighbors who moved in recently and I'm sure it has something to do with Russians  Wink

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 61):
I'm completely disgusted with practically everyone on this forum.

Hey, don't take it so personally. There are so many friendly people around.

Going back to the original news. Do you find it a bit strange that none of the airlines mentioned are members of Sky Team? Maybe, it doesn't have anything to do with Moscow after all.  stirthepot 

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: ZakHH
Posted 2007-03-28 09:37:57 and read 5339 times.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 61):
I'm completely disgusted with practically everyone on this forum.

Relax. Not everybody here is ignorant, or aiming for bashing certain countries. But there's a lot of wrong things going on all over the world. And I don't see why they should not be discussed, just because they happen in your country.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 61):
Every country has the right to make warnings and threats.

Yet still, they often prove to be not the wisest decision. Especially if they are built on muddy ground. What - in my humble opinion - may apply here.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 61):
Russian planes and Western planes all fly from point A to B. Designs, interiors, airlines may be different, but if properly maintained as they should be, then both planes get their job done.

 checkmark 

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 61):
I can't stress enough how childish it is to make an argument without knowing the complete facts.

True. Still, this forum's purpose is also to share views and opinions, especially if not all facts are clear. I for one was wondering if the given number of 18 safety violations by 16 airlines in 9 months is really that much. Still wondering...  Wink

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 63):
Let's face it, Tu-154s are in service since 1970s. It's a long period of time and accidents are almost inevitable. Let's compare it with 737s?

I think you got me wrong. What I wanted to say was: to call the Tu154 unsafe in general would be just like calling the B737 unsafe in general because of the latest incidents in Indonesia. Both is wrong.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2007-03-28 09:51:26 and read 5246 times.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 64):
What I wanted to say was: to call the Tu154 unsafe in general would be just like calling the B737 unsafe in general because of the latest incidents in Indonesia. Both is wrong.

Yes, it was exactly my point, so we agree  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-28 10:35:45 and read 4965 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 53):
Err I dont mean to be rude either but you have the Russian flag next to your handle so one would presume you were reffering to ''Russia'' when you mentioned ''Fellow Europeans''. It is in fact only when you go to your profile that it states you are in Basel so I do not think your comment above was justified.

That's not true...I wrote in a post above that I am Swiss and then was referring to my fellow Western Europeans who very often have an arrogant attitude towards everything East of us. It seems that some users comment posts without actually reading them before!

Regards,
RJ100

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-28 11:13:24 and read 4742 times.

Because I like the country and the people there.  Smile

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OA260
Posted 2007-03-28 11:17:27 and read 4712 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 68):
Because I like the country and the people there.

LOL....ok thats a good enough reason. I too like the Russians and the country and I dont like what the government is doing to it. Some things are very worrying indeed.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Columba
Posted 2007-03-28 11:20:30 and read 4697 times.

Quote:

Air Berlin, Germanwings may be on Russia's blacklist of airlines - report
Deutsche Lufthansa AG's budget airline Germanwings and Air Berlin Plc (Nachrichten/Aktienkurs) may be on the list of EU airlines to be banned from Russian air space for alleged failure to comply with required altitude levels, Financial Times Deutschland said, citing sources in the sector.

Neither Air Berlin nor Germanwings have received complaints from Russia yet, the newspaper cited spokespeople for the two airlines as saying.

'We see this as a technical problem,' a spokesman for EU transport commissioner Jacques Barrot said. Such incidents are 'relatively common,' he added, the report said.

Russia may close its air space to EU airlines, which continue to breach safety regulations due to a 'lack of discipline' and poor training of pilots, Russian news agencies reported in mid-March.


http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...ichten-2007-03/artikel-7977208.asp

Sorry but poor training by airlines such as BA, IB, AB and Germanwings as an argument to ban these airlines from Russian air space is really given me a laugh.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2007-03-28 11:33:17 and read 4630 times.

Come on guys, can't you see it? Even if there is something in that story, try to look at it from different perspective. Why BA and IB and not AF and KL, for example?

There is another thing that comes into my mind. My experience tells me never to trust usual news media when aviation is concerned because you can see loads of mistakes (I really tried hard not to use harsher word  Wink). When there was an emergency landing of JetBlue jet into LAX about a year ago, CNN anchor asked so many stupid questions in a period of only few minutes that it was fun to listen to him. I can give at least of dozen similar examples from my local media and I don't think Komersant is much better than others. So, they might have found something and blew it out of proportion. Remember, pilots do make mistakes. Even pilots from well-known airlines (just remember all JAL incidents lately). Aviation authorities do get nervous about it. So, we really have very little now to make any conclusions at all.

[Edited 2007-03-28 11:42:32]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-28 19:23:47 and read 4209 times.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 64):

True. Still, this forum's purpose is also to share views and opinions, especially if not all facts are clear. I for one was wondering if the given number of 18 safety violations by 16 airlines in 9 months is really that much. Still wondering...

It's not. But it's enough to use it as a means to fight back against all the negativity that has been thrown into Russia's face by the EU. Many of you are reading one side of the story and are completely ignorant as to the threats that Russian aviation is getting. So everything is perfectly normal. And like I said, those of you who believe this "threat" will go through need a reality check. Russia will be the only one to lose if IB and BA are not allowed to fly into the country.

Hjulicher made a great post outlining many problems many of you seem to miss, and Aleksandar explained the Soviet vs. Western needs very well when it comes to building planes. You should gain some insight from both posts.

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: MotorHussy
Posted 2007-03-29 00:24:27 and read 4054 times.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 58):
What the eff is wrong with that?

Well clearly it's not western. Switzerland is in central Europe and the person is Russian (eastern Europe) - what the eff is wrong with that?

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 58):
Sounds like you made a lot of ASSumptions.

Hey Tovaritsch, you kiss your mother with that potty mouth? Whether I was surmising, reading between the lines, looking at track record and history, or making assumptions (but probably a combination of the lot), it is my prerogative to do so in this forum. What I was not being was anti-Russian so stop being so hyper sensitive and xenophobic for Russia Oleg. Perhaps you should have a good honest look at Russian aviation when it comes to their safety and incident history as well as the ATC's ability to deal with traffic and historic communications issues (yes of course it's getting better).

If my comments were truly unfounded and without base, then I apologise in advance for any offence.

Regards
MH

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-29 04:39:31 and read 3969 times.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 71):
Perhaps you should have a good honest look at Russian aviation when it comes to their safety and incident history as well as the ATC's ability to deal with traffic and historic communications issues (yes of course it's getting better).

Um... perhaps you should take another look at it as well. Now don't simply look and make your comparisons with the Western world. Read up on some previous posts. Western aviation CANNOT be compared in the same way with Russian. Russian planes were built for extremely different operations. Russia has hundreds of airlines at present. Planes were built to operate in different conditions. They flew all over, landed on fields, took off from soil. Laded at destinations in the deep forests and taiga. If you put comparable Western aircraft to the same tests, you will see the same amount of problems, if not more, since planes weren't built for the proper markets.

So again, don't ever compare the safety records, especially from the Soviet Union days, because flights were operated in ungodly conditions in Westerner's eyes.
If the aircraft are well maintained, they are just as safe.

On that note, why don't Russians start bashing the 737s that have been falling in Asia. What's wrong with those horribly unsafe planes. God they are killers....  Yeah sure

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2007-03-29 06:22:25 and read 3919 times.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 72):
So again, don't ever compare the safety records, especially from the Soviet Union days, because flights were operated in ungodly conditions in Westerner's eyes.

Exactly, such comparison is unfair and completely wrong. One cannot even compare safety records from early years of post-Soviet era when there was a bit of a chaos. All those liveries might have looked nice on once boring Tupolevs and Ilyushins, but I am sure people from Russian aviation authorities didn't see it that way. It was a struggle to keep the best in the business and stop others from ruining image of the Russian aviation as a whole.

And it was not only the problem of Russia. Similar things happened in FYR Macedonia, for example. Numerous airlines, bad menagement and some horrible accidents like F-100 shortly after take-off or Yak-42D on landing at Ohrid. As one can see, two completely different types of airliners were involved. One was ultra-modern at that time and the other was Soviet airline. I would rather blame managements of these airline than planes.

Going back to Russia and CIS countries, they did inherit a different approach towards safety regulations, follwoing rules and ssimilar things so important in the West, simply because, as Aeroflot 777 exaplained, they flew everywhere, did some incredible things and paperwork was not the highest priority. Again, this is not an exclusively Russian problems. There was an article on "Airways" about an inspection in Berlin and similar problems were found in Mongolian Airlines' Airbus.

Once again, things are changing now and they are not changing slow. Airlines in that region (now I have a slightly larger picturer than Russia) are more market oriented. Several bad accidents were a strong wake-up call and I predict that Russia will look like China in the near future. Do you remember their safety record in early 1990s?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2007-03-29 06:25:06 and read 3915 times.

Well, I do have a question about Russian aviation? Do they plan to switch from metric system to a more commonly used one soon?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-29 08:10:35 and read 3855 times.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 71):
Switzerland is in central Europe and the person is Russian (eastern Europe) - what the eff is wrong with that?

The East end of Europe are the Ural mountains in Russia. Switzerland therefore is clearly in Western Europe. Central Europe are the countries such as Poland, Hungary, Slovakia...

Source: map  Wink

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: MotorHussy
Posted 2007-03-29 11:59:35 and read 3754 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 75):
The East end of Europe are the Ural mountains in Russia. Switzerland therefore is clearly in Western Europe.

Agreed, my bad. And I thought geography was my strong suit. But do remember, the dude flies a Russian flag for his identity.

MH

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RJ100
Posted 2007-03-29 12:15:22 and read 3741 times.

I do...I don't understand why my flag pisses people off and why this is an issue here. I only said that in Western Europe things are not as perfect as everyone thinks it is...we have our accidents and we make mistakes as much as the Russians do. And I think that in the West there is a certain arrogant attitude especially towards Russian aviation. I was telling some of my friends that I'm going to fly Aeroflot in summer on a Tupolev-154 and they were going like: "uhm, so that's the last time we see you alive". It is so damn ridiculous, especially in a country that had three full losses in recent years and managed to crash two aircraft into each other over Lake Constance.

[Edited 2007-03-29 12:21:29]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Tu204
Posted 2007-03-29 18:14:17 and read 3628 times.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 46):
BTW, how much foreign currency does Russia earn from other countries' airlines using its airspace, ATC and airports? Presumably it's (collectively) quite a good foreign export earner. You'd think that the state would invest in their earner so as to improve their dividend by attracting more users to the improved service.

The State? Try Aeroflot. The proceeds from overfly rights go into Aeroflot's pocket because the overfly agreement dates back to the USSR days. In any case, the proceeds are only about $100 million/year. We make that much from selling 4 SU-27's to India...so it will not really be a blow to anyone's budget except maybe Aeroflot's.

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 47):
I find it ironic that the Russians are complaining of safety violations.

Why is that? Have you ever flown a Russian airline or do you work as a civil aviation inspector in Russia? Or perhaps you know something I do not?

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 42):
This is a sheer example of Russia gradually falling into a rogue nation state displaying "thuggish" behavior. It's simply a reflection of Putin mentality and using muscle to acquire whatever one can... Yukos to continuous repression of press to consolidation of power by the Kremlin. Nothing surprising!

Thuggish behaviour? Are you sure you are not confusing Russia with another large country? So explain to me why, when Russia stands up for our interests it is called "thuggish behaviour" but when other countries do it is called "politics" or "justice"?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Tu204
Posted 2007-03-29 18:47:00 and read 3589 times.

By the way, I have an explanation for the violations in flight levels.
You see, in the Russian Federation, we use the metric system. In western europe you guys use the imperial system for your altitude. It is very likely that the Germanwings pilots simply made an incorrect conversion when they were instructed to descend/climb by the ATC (the ATC would instruct them to climb to xxxMETERS not xxxFEET and then the crew has to convert the altitude themselves. It could have also happened upon entering Russian airspace (although the flight levels generally correspond, their functions do not, as in east/west or vfr/ifr, which is why upon entering Russian airspace you will notice that the aircraft climbs or descends and does the same upon leaving Russian airspace)
I am 99% sure that this is the cause. In any case, it is the responsibility of any airline flying to or overflying the Russian Federation to supply their pilots with the proper conversion charts/computers.
On a similar note, the Tu204 for example, has a switch on the console that switches the altimiter from feet to meters, eliminating the need for any math. The older aircraft usually have a second altimiter in feet that is used when flying internationally. As far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) neither Boeings nor Airbuses have such a switch.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OlegShv
Posted 2007-03-29 20:40:42 and read 3519 times.

There is a special table showing metric flight levels and the corresponding flight levels in feet, which pilots usually have on board. They don't need to do the math, have an extra altimeter, or switch the units. Here is an excerpt:

Westbound:
1200m => FL039
... ...
6000m => FL197
6600m => FL217
7200m => FL236
7800m => FL256
8600m => FL282
9600m => FL315
10600m => FL348
11600m => FL381
13100m => FL430

Eastbound:
12100m => FL397
11100m => FL364
10100m => FL331
9100m => FL299
8100m => FL266
7500m => FL246
6900m => FL226
6300m => FL207
5700m => FL187
... ...
1500m => FL049

My guess for the reason of altitude confusion is the different transition altitudes and altimeter pressure settings that are used in Russia and the rest of the world. Russian ATC is using QFE altimeter settings (altimeter shows zero on the ground), while Europe (and most of the rest of the world) use QNH (altimeter shows airport elevation above MSL on the ground). Another issue could be that they did not reset the altimeter to the standard pressure at the appropriate transition altitude (it's usually different for every airport and is published on the airport charts).

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2007-03-29 21:18:51 and read 3486 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 75):
The East end of Europe are the Ural mountains in Russia. Switzerland therefore is clearly in Western Europe. Central Europe are the countries such as Poland, Hungary, Slovakia...

As a matter of fact, the geometric centre of Europe is near Kremnica, Slovakia.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 79):
On a similar note, the Tu204 for example, has a switch on the console that switches the altimiter from feet to meters, eliminating the need for any math. The older aircraft usually have a second altimiter in feet that is used when flying internationally. As far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) neither Boeings nor Airbuses have such a switch.

It would be so easy with the glass cockpits nowadays. Heck, even my car's dashboard can be switched from km/h to mph...

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: JAL
Posted 2007-03-29 23:10:26 and read 3442 times.

If Russia bans some airlines from flying into Russia, Russian airlines should also be ban, it's only fair. Before Russain authorities look at international airlines for alleged safety violations may I suggest they look at their own less than stellar safety record.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2007-03-30 04:34:33 and read 3360 times.

Quoting JAL (Reply 82):
Before Russain authorities look at international airlines for alleged safety violations may I suggest they look at their own less than stellar safety record.

Very ignorant. Do you fail to read the replies in the thread before posting?

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-03-30 05:48:58 and read 3308 times.

One question regarding the flightlevels in Russia: Why don't they switch to the imperial system? I mean, it something like that may be difficult because most Russian built airliners probably aren't factory designed with the imperial system in mind, but given the increased use of Western built aircraft in the region, why not start making the switch? The same goes for China, which also retains the metric system (except for perhaps HKG and Macau).

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Tu204
Posted 2007-03-30 08:10:12 and read 3269 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 84):
One question regarding the flightlevels in Russia: Why don't they switch to the imperial system? I mean, it something like that may be difficult because most Russian built airliners probably aren't factory designed with the imperial system in mind, but given the increased use of Western built aircraft in the region, why not start making the switch? The same goes for China, which also retains the metric system (except for perhaps HKG and Macau).

It has been this way since the beginning so it is highly unlikely that it will change. Also, the imperial system is not used for anything in Russia except nautical miles in the navy, so it would be pretty awkward to make the switch.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Awthompson
Posted 2007-03-30 15:03:06 and read 3166 times.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 74):
Well, I do have a question about Russian aviation? Do they plan to switch from metric system to a more commonly used one soon?

Metric is the 'modern' system.

Miles*, yards, feet and inches are the old imperial system which metric replaced.

On this count Russia are modern and up to date and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up at some stage.

The aviation world is actually behind in using feet and inches.

There is no way Russia will go back to a system which metric is really supposed to have replaced.

* 'Nautical' Miles are different however in that the value was chosen because there are exactly 60 of them to one degree of latitude which makes for good navigation sense.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OV735
Posted 2007-03-30 21:06:28 and read 3080 times.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 86):
Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 74):
Well, I do have a question about Russian aviation? Do they plan to switch from metric system to a more commonly used one soon?

Metric is the 'modern' system.

Miles*, yards, feet and inches are the old imperial system which metric replaced.

On this count Russia are modern and up to date and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up at some stage.

The aviation world is actually behind in using feet and inches.

There is no way Russia will go back to a system which metric is really supposed to have replaced.

 checkmark 

Russia switching it's aviation to imperial system is about as sensible as the US doing the same to its monetary system. You know, 12 pennies per cent, 12 cents per dollar, etc. Metric is a way more logical and easily convertable system. Try doing a quick calculation of how many miles is 427 feet. Now try calculating how many kilometres is 427 metres.

Cheers,
OV735

[Edited 2007-03-30 21:07:17]

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-03-30 21:13:46 and read 3058 times.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 85):
It has been this way since the beginning so it is highly unlikely that it will change. Also, the imperial system is not used for anything in Russia except nautical miles in the navy, so it would be pretty awkward to make the switch.

Then this leads the question of why other countries haven't followed suit. I mean, the majority of countries, including my native Germany, where the metric system is almost exclusively used, still use the imperial system in aeronautics.

BTW, to clear up any possible misunderstandings, my question was only related to aeronautics, not in general. Like I said, many countries, including Germany, use the metric system fully except for aviation, where the imperial system continues to be used.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2007-03-30 21:28:09 and read 3029 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 88):

Then this leads the question of why other countries haven't followed suit. I mean, the majority of countries, including my native Germany, where the metric system is almost exclusively used, still use the imperial system in aeronautics.

I think WW2 has quite a lot to do with it. It boosted aviation extremely, yet the countries which used metric usually lost, while most planes came from imperial countries like UK and USA (Russia and France certainly had lesser influence after the war than the US).

This is only my speculation, of course.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2007-03-30 21:52:05 and read 3012 times.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 87):
You know, 12 pennies per cent, 12 cents per dollar, etc.

Don't understand you on that comment, OV735. The U.S. monetary system has always been the decimal system. But, on the other hand, the UK was a real challenge for me until they changed over.

Airlines take their lead from seafaring long ago and that is why distances are not measured in miles and kilometers, but in nautical miles. The same long-standing tradition applies to height an airliner flies. I don't know the exact terminology in ICAO rules, but I believe that at an international airport this is measured in feet.

I know after living in Europe for more than 12 years that everything is much simpler in metric, but I doubt that your regular Joe Bloe will accept it, because in his mind it will all be too confusing to divide or multiply by 10. However, the U.S. military often uses metric, so it is gaining some acceptance.

Regards,

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OHLHD
Posted 2007-03-30 21:58:23 and read 2999 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 77):
I don't understand why my flag pisses people off and why this is an issue here.

Well.....this is really sad that the flag on top matters to anybody.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 77):
I was telling some of my friends that I'm going to fly Aeroflot in summer on a Tupolev-154 and they were going like: "uhm, so that's the last time we see you alive".

Hehe, I hear the same when I tell friends my travel plans.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 79):
By the way, I have an explanation for the violations in flight levels.
You see, in the Russian Federation, we use the metric system.

But honestly this should not happen. my opinion is that if a pilot does not know the difference I somehow question their flight preparation.

Quoting JAL (Reply 82):
If Russia bans some airlines from flying into Russia, Russian airlines should also be ban, it's only fair. Before Russain authorities look at international airlines for alleged safety violations may I suggest they look at their own less than stellar safety record.

Very ignorant statement. This has nothing to do with fairness but simple with safety. But since it is newspaper report we should not put to much weight on this story, especially blaming russian aircrafts for safety issues in our skies.


On a side note: we should be very happy to see TU 154's around the EU, since it is getting a bit boring on watching A320 and B 737's lately.  Big grin


 champagne  to the Russian A/C builders  Big grin

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: OV735
Posted 2007-03-31 11:07:25 and read 2874 times.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 90):
I know after living in Europe for more than 12 years that everything is much simpler in metric, but I doubt that your regular Joe Bloe will accept it, because in his mind it will all be too confusing to divide or multiply by 10.

Well, obviously then the Joe Bloe can't really count money either, because that's all decimal system. Big corporations must love these sort of people. But I think (or hope that the people holding a pilot license have a few extra brain cells to be able to do such basic tasks.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 90):
Quoting OV735 (Reply 87):
You know, 12 pennies per cent, 12 cents per dollar, etc.

Don't understand you on that comment, OV735. The U.S. monetary system has always been the decimal system.

True, and that was my point too. For Russia to go over to Imperial system in aviation has about as much point as US converting it's monetary system to Imperial.

For the sake of logical thinking, I truly hope that one day the metric system will become the worldwide aviation, although I have my doubts of it happening.

Cheers,
OV735

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: Tu204
Posted 2007-04-01 14:10:51 and read 2687 times.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 91):
But honestly this should not happen. my opinion is that if a pilot does not know the difference I somehow question their flight preparation.

Which is, in my opinion why our authorities are threatening to ban the above mentioned airlines from Russia. But I am pretty certain this will not happen.

Topic: RE: Russia Threatens To Ban BA, IB, 4U...
Username: CV880
Posted 2007-04-02 00:30:19 and read 2546 times.

The USA very backward with respect to using metrics....especially when weight/balance is computed in pounds on domestic flights and kilos on international flights...


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