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Topic: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 06:43:05 and read 11204 times.


Hmmm, this should throw a lil' lighter-fluid onto an everlasting A.net flame....

Quote:
The history of the 767-400. That aircraft was developed specifically for Delta by Boeing.

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Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-04-03 06:51:31 and read 11175 times.

Well a lot of people have figured as much for some time now. This has really been beaten to death, but I suppose it bears repeating. Boeing would have likely been more successful had the 767-400ER been developed:

1. Sooner, many other 767 customers had all the capacity they needed in the form of 763ER by the time the 764ER was available.

2. With longer payload/range. The legs on the 764ER were just short enough to prevent it from being an attractive intercontinental aircraft.

Focusing too much on DL's requirements and developing the 767-400ER rather than the -400ERX may have very well played into the limited "success" Boeing encountered with the model.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Cory6188
Posted 2007-04-03 06:52:49 and read 11168 times.

Riiiiiiight. And CO, who specifically wanted a DC-10 replacement, had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the aircraft. They just happened to luck out insofar as the 764 served exactly what they wanted.

I think not.  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 06:55:28 and read 11159 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Boeing would have likely been more successful had the 767-400ER been developed:

...um, it was, cher  Wink

Guessing you meant the 767-400ERX?

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: IAHERJ
Posted 2007-04-03 06:56:35 and read 11154 times.

Delta people think a lot of things in aviation revolve around Delta. That quote doesn't surprise me a bit. I fly the 767-400 for another carrier in the U.S. whose former CEO was the Renton Division(757/767 division of Boeing) leader for a good bit before his job leading our airline. I believe he had an opinion or two on the aircraft when he ordered a bunch to replace the DC-10's we were retiring. But, of course Delta, who used them almost exclusively for the first few years on domestic runs out of ATL to Florida was probably the brains behind the project.

Funny!!

IAHERJ

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: FXramper
Posted 2007-04-03 06:59:54 and read 11140 times.

Not to be a rash, but is this news?  confused 

Boeing is replacing the 764 with the 789.  airplane 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
limited "success"

How many total frames did they make (764)?

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2007-04-03 07:00:04 and read 11129 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 3):

nooOoOooOoo ... I meant the 767-400ER would be more successful had Boeing built the 764ER to the points listed below this little guy ( : )  Wink

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-04-03 07:22:39 and read 11049 times.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
Riiiiiiight. And CO, who specifically wanted a DC-10 replacement, had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the aircraft. They just happened to luck out insofar as the 764 served exactly what they wanted.

Their SkyTeam partner wanted a Tri-Star replacement, so the two both found something they both obviously like, even though it entered the game late for a 767 airframe, but late enough to benefit from some 777 technology. I like the 764ER, and will miss seeing them arrive here at SLC from HNL or OGG. I think this site below will become VERY rare in SLC:

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 07:24:42 and read 11037 times.

Oh yeah, Iknewthat Big grin

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaOwnsAll
Posted 2007-04-03 07:26:01 and read 11022 times.

Quoting IAHERJ (Reply 4):
Delta people think a lot of things in aviation revolve around Delta.

everything in aviation does revolve around Delta Air Lines though...right!?  Wink

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Movingtin
Posted 2007-04-03 11:47:25 and read 10677 times.

Quoting IAHERJ (Reply 4):
Delta people think a lot of things in aviation revolve around Delta. That quote doesn't surprise me a bit. I fly the 767-400 for another carrier in the U.S. whose former CEO was the Renton Division(757/767 division of Boeing) leader for a good bit before his job leading our airline. I believe he had an opinion or two on the aircraft when he ordered a bunch to replace the DC-10's we were retiring. But, of course Delta, who used them almost exclusively for the first few years on domestic runs out of ATL to Florida was probably the brains behind the project.

Funny!!

From Boeing.com "The 767-400ER was launched April 28, 1997, when Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines announced its intent to order 21 airplanes.
Continental Airlines ordered 26 airplanes on Oct. 10, 1997. "

So, Delta waited around for 6 months while CO set the specs on a plane they already ordered? Wow, what power Bethune has!

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Fewsolarge
Posted 2007-04-03 11:53:42 and read 10657 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
Their SkyTeam partner wanted a Tri-Star replacement

... makes it sound like they were partners at the time they ordered. No doubt they at least liked each other more then  Wow!

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 12:17:24 and read 10608 times.

Good article on the 767-400ER & 767-400ERX, dated 19/08/98:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...19/40856/stretching-a-stretch.html

Was the 767-400ER developed just for Delta? Sorry, but I just dont buy it. Theres no way the development costs could be covered by a Delta order for a start. Also, why did Boeing make several changes to the design, including a new cockpit, after both DL & CO had ordered it with the 767-300 cockpit??

Quote:

By this month, sales had reached 52 aircraft, with 26 orders for Continental, 21 for Delta and five for International Lease Finance. Although it has been static for some time, the orderbook is widely tipped to grow before the end of 1998. Queen says that there is "significant interest in the programme", and he adds that "-we still expect it to be a best seller".

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2007-04-03 13:18:29 and read 10462 times.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
Riiiiiiight. And CO, who specifically wanted a DC-10 replacement, had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the aircraft. They just happened to luck out insofar as the 764 served exactly what they wanted.

I think not

Well, if CO had had any say in the 764 development, then why did they cancel 10 of their intial 26 orders for the 764, citing the lack of sufficient range? One would think that CO would have demanded more range from Boeing if they were so interested in the 764.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 13:31:57 and read 10416 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
Riiiiiiight. And CO, who specifically wanted a DC-10 replacement, had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the aircraft. They just happened to luck out insofar as the 764 served exactly what they wanted.

I think not

Well, if CO had had any say in the 764 development, then why did they cancel 10 of their intial 26 orders for the 764, citing the lack of sufficient range? One would think that CO would have demanded more range from Boeing if they were so interested in the 764.

Boeing were planning the 767-400ERX, maybe that is what CO were really interested in.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2007-04-03 15:06:15 and read 10162 times.

DL is and was the largest 767 operator int he world at the time the 764 was ordered. While it may not be 100% correct to say that it was made specifically for them , it was built to satisfy their requirements for a Tristar replacement as well as CO's replacement for the DC-10. One could say Boeing was satisfying both customers. Let us not forget Gordon Bethune used to work for Boeing.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaDC9
Posted 2007-04-03 15:24:22 and read 10083 times.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
Riiiiiiight. And CO, who specifically wanted a DC-10 replacement, had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the aircraft. They just happened to luck out insofar as the 764 served exactly what they wanted.

I think not.

The Delta haters on this site crack me up......

Just accept it people, it was two corporations washing each others hands, with a third thrown in for good measure.

Nothing new here. It is hard to understand how people cannot comprehend the opportunity costs of one US major that has always been primarily Boeing/MD to cross over to Airbus. 2 US majors is a no brainer. Boeing wanted to make a profit no doubt and they did, and they would have liked more sales which many fell thru, but the program did what it was intended to do, therefore it was a success.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2007-04-03 15:30:02 and read 10059 times.

I think you miss the point of the comments.

Boeing developed specific features of the aircraft around Deltas wishes, and as a result has carried those features, some of which are a pain in the butt, to all copies built.

The top off points for the three hydralic systems come to mind...

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Cory6188
Posted 2007-04-03 15:33:07 and read 10041 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 16):
The Delta haters on this site crack me up......

I'm not a DL hater in any way, shape, or form - in fact, if CO isn't an option, DL is my next choice of airline. However, I thought that the comment about the 764 was particularly absurd. If Larry Kellner were to go around saying that the 777 was developed "specifcally for Continental," then I'd have the same response...

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Delta787
Posted 2007-04-03 15:42:14 and read 9974 times.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 18):
However, I thought that the comment about the 764 was particularly absurd. If Larry Kellner were to go around saying that the 777 was developed "specifcally for Continental," then I'd have the same response...

Yes, Larry Kellner would look pretty stupid if he said that the 777 was developed for Continental. Continental wasnt even on the airline comittee that helped designed the 777. Now on the other hand Delta was the launch customer for the 764. I would say they had significant input in the design of the plane. Your comparison doesnt make sense.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Stitch
Posted 2007-04-03 15:52:40 and read 9909 times.

I do not for one minute believe Boeing built the plane just for DL and CO - this is just what essentially happened. And if Boeing knew then what they knew now, they'd have just offered 772As to DL and CO at deeper discounts and never launched the 767-400ER. They expected it to sell in the triple digits, but the A330-200 was the better plane if you needed capacity and the 767-300ER was the better plane if you didn't, so it was essentially nullified at both ends and languished accordingly. No different then the A340-200, which was squeezed by the A340-300 at the top and the A330-200 at the bottom and also sold poorly.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2007-04-03 15:55:34 and read 9895 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
Hmmm, this should throw a lil' lighter-fluid onto an everlasting A.net flame....

Are you kidding me with this? People actually care?

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2007-04-03 15:55:34 and read 9896 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 16):
Boeing wanted to make a profit no doubt and they did, and they would have liked more sales which many fell thru, but the program did what it was intended to do, therefore it was a success.

Financial success, yes, commercial success - far from it. 767-400 lacked the range and cargo capacity. It lost just about every sales campaign against A330-200 except for DL and CO, which - at the time, along with AA - had exclusive supplier clause signed with Boeing.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: 777gk
Posted 2007-04-03 16:01:49 and read 9845 times.

Continental was quite closely involved in the development of the 767-400ER. However, it was Delta's specification that the aircraft fit within the footprint of the existing 767-300ER and L-1011, which limited range by forcing the Boeing to use a modified 767 wing. CO pushed for a new wing and/or additional fuel tanks, which made the airplane heavier than DL wanted. Boeing compromised by offering the possibility of the 767-400ERX, which CO would have converted orders for.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):

Well, if CO had had any say in the 764 development, then why did they cancel 10 of their intial 26 orders for the 764, citing the lack of sufficient range?

The cancellation of the 10 orders came shortly after 9/11 due to capacity reductions. We received our last 767 in May 2002 (066). Although we could have used more range, it wasn't the reason we canceled the deliveries. If anything, that's the reason we never ordered any more.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 16:03:17 and read 9828 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 16):
Nothing new here. It is hard to understand how people cannot comprehend the opportunity costs of one US major that has always been primarily Boeing/MD to cross over to Airbus.

This was not going to happen! The Boeing/Delta/American/Contintal relationship goes deeper than the 767-400, they were not going to order A330s. The A330-200 has won every other RFP against the 767-400 since.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 16):
Boeing wanted to make a profit no doubt and they did



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 16):
the program did what it was intended to do, therefore it was a success.

Selling it to DL & CO was only one of the programmes intentions. The 767-400 was a direct answer to the A330-200. It was obvious that Boeing was hoping for much more orders.

Quote:

Queen says that there is "significant interest in the programme", and he adds that "-we still expect it to be a best seller".

I also doubt your assumption that the 767-400 made a profit. Why? The Airbus A340-500/600 programme cost nearly $3b, and the changes on the 767-400 are just as extensive. So lets say that the 767-400 cost $1.5b. If we divide this by the the total in service (16+22), we get a direct development cost of $39.5m per aircraft. Also assume that as launch customers, they paid launch customer prices, say $90m per frame. And no this is not a dig at the aircraft itself which is among my all time favs (have a look at my profile + pics).

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 16:10:39 and read 9756 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
No different then the A340-200, which was squeezed by the A340-300 at the top and the A330-200 at the bottom and also sold poorly.

I think the A340-200 sold poorly because it had crap CASMs compared to even the A340-300. Like the A318/A319, it has almost the same operating cost as its larger version but less revenue capacity. The A330-200 (which cost an additional $450m to do) was partly intended to address the poor A340-200 sales.

Quote:

The history of the 767-400. That aircraft was developed specifically for Delta by Boeing.

.......Ryanair is Irelands national airline, according to its CEO. Just today I heard an Aer Lingus CEO statement that the reason they have just introduced seating charges is as a response to customer demands (are they taking the p1ss?).

[Edited 2007-04-03 16:17:04]

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Jetlanta
Posted 2007-04-03 16:12:19 and read 10072 times.

Sure, Gerry just made this up.

Boeing absolutely DID design the 764 to meet Delta's requirements. Some of you may have missed it at the time because you were in kindergarten, but it isn't some big industry secret.

In fact, Delta's specific requirements, including the ability to use LGA, may have been part of the aircraft's ultimate downfall in terms of commercial success. Delta needed an aircraft with a wingspan that could fit in its current gate footprint at LGA. This wing (and engine) ultimately limited the aircraft's performance envelope and eliminated it as an option for many of the most likely customers. With all the 763 customers, you'd have expected the 764 to be a big success. Instead, the A330-200 showed up and offered customers the performance and capabilities they required and turned out to me a big success.

But to be clear, Boeing did design the 764 to Delta specs. Gerry is not a liar.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaDC9
Posted 2007-04-03 16:41:13 and read 9942 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
And if Boeing knew then what they knew now, they'd have just offered 772As to DL and CO at deeper discounts and never launched the 767-400ER. They expected it to sell in the triple digits, but the A330-200 was the better plane if you needed capacity and the 767-300ER was the better plane if you didn't, so it was essentially nullified at both ends and languished accordingly.

I dont believe Boeing did not know, they certainly are smarter than that!

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
This was not going to happen! The Boeing/Delta/American/Contintal relationship goes deeper than the 767-400, they were not going to order A330s. The A330-200 has won every other RFP against the 767-400 since.

All of those airlines have ordered planes from other manufacturers.

It is a matter of risk mitigation. The 330 was clearly a better plane, everyone knew that!

Also, the Boeing/United relatioinship used to be even stronger than those.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
The 767-400 was a direct answer to the A330-200

Actually the Sonic Cruiser was, the 400 was a stop gap.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
I also doubt your assumption that the 767-400 made a profit. Why?

It is not an assumption, it is business management 101.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 17:06:15 and read 9836 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 27):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
This was not going to happen! The Boeing/Delta/American/Contintal relationship goes deeper than the 767-400, they were not going to order A330s. The A330-200 has won every other RFP against the 767-400 since.

All of those airlines have ordered planes from other manufacturers.

I believe the 'agreements' cover planes over approx 100 seats, and came about in the late 90s.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaDC9
Posted 2007-04-03 17:11:23 and read 9806 times.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 28):
I believe the 'agreements' cover planes over approx 100 seats, and came about in the late 90s.

And they are completely unenforcable due to the fact that the written ones were sacrificed. It is simply an handshake kind of thing now. They would not be needed, along with the 400 if those airlines were not tempted to buy Airbus.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Floridaflyboy
Posted 2007-04-03 17:49:42 and read 9497 times.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Selling it to DL & CO was only one of the programmes intentions. The 767-400 was a direct answer to the A330-200. It was obvious that Boeing was hoping for much more orders.

That's one opinion on this. I strongly believe the opposite, that Boeing only ever counted on selling the aircraft to DL and CO, and that any orders beyond that would simply be icing on the cake. I seriously believe that the 764 was a development specifically to meet DL and CO's demands for a trijet replacement, and nothing more.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: CFTOA
Posted 2007-04-03 19:12:01 and read 8528 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
Hmmm, this should throw a lil' lighter-fluid onto an everlasting A.net flame....

You just had to get them going, didn't you?  rotfl 

Cheers.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 19:50:32 and read 8002 times.

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 31):
You just had to get them going, didn't you?

True, though there should be a slight correction in the title:
This is actually Uncle Eddie saying this, not Grandpa Grinstein.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: B2707SST
Posted 2007-04-03 19:52:00 and read 8120 times.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Airbus A340-500/600 programme cost nearly $3b, and the changes on the 767-400 are just as extensive.

Not even close: the A340NGs had a new wing root plug, a center wing box stretch, completely new and much more powerful engines (RR instead of CFM), and far higher MTOWs, all of which carried a very significant price tag. The 764 had slightly uprated versions of the same CF6 engines, a new wingtip, a modified cockpit, a much more modest gross weight increase, and a cabin interior adapted from the 777. I would be surprised if Boeing spent more than $1 billion on the program. I still doubt they made much money on the 764, but it probably wasn't a big money loser either.

In a way, it's a good thing that the 764 failed to match the A332, since it forced Boeing to do the 787 much more quickly than they otherwise would have, and 787 sales have blown past all expectations. That said, I loved the 764 in the (unproductive) World Tour livery and have always hoped for more orders....


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Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Fridgmus
Posted 2007-04-03 20:28:59 and read 7603 times.

Could one of you please tell me the difference between the 767-400ER and the ERX? Was is it kind of like an LR?

Thank you,

Marc

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaDC9
Posted 2007-04-03 22:29:41 and read 6571 times.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 33):
Not even close

They also used 777 landing gear because of the weight increase IIRC. Still, much more similar to the 748 but not even as extensive as that seeing that the engines were basicially the same, and the 748 project only required a few hundred engineers as opposed to thousands for a typical major project.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 22:42:57 and read 6412 times.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 33):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Airbus A340-500/600 programme cost nearly $3b, and the changes on the 767-400 are just as extensive.

Not even close: the A340NGs had a new wing root plug, a center wing box stretch, completely new and much more powerful engines (RR instead of CFM), and far higher MTOWs, all of which carried a very significant price tag

Very close actually! I'll list the changes in both that I cant tink of off hand (feel free to make additions to the lists)

A340-500/600
Fuselage Stretch
Extended & Strengthened Main Gear
Wingtip Extensions
New Wing Control Surfaces
Wing Spar Strengtening & Reinforcement
Engines: RR Trent556
Revised Interior
Wing Box Stretch
New Wing Root Plug


B767-400
Fuselage Stretch
Extended & Strengthened Main Gear inc wheels, brakes & tyres, and new gear retraction system.
Wingtip Extensions
Wing Spar Strengtening & Reinforcement
Redesigned Wing Skin Areas
Revised Empennage (Section 48)
Engines: GE CF6 & P&W 4000
New Interior
New redesigned Honeywell Cockpit
New APU
New Cabin Air System
New Electrical System
New Tail Skid

There are definitly more so please add.....

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 22:50:29 and read 6353 times.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 34):
Could one of you please tell me the difference between the 767-400ER and the ERX? Was is it kind of like an LR?

Sorta.

Basically, the -ERX would've had a modified wing, increased tankage, higher MTOW, longer range, and engines developed in accord with the proposed stretch 747 of the time. Interesting to note that that 747 and the 764ERX were cancelled within a very short time of each other.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 23:10:42 and read 6159 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 37):
Basically, the -ERX would've had a modified wing

I was surprised to find this, but theres actually very little parts commonality between the 767-400 & 767-300 wings, as almost everything from spars to surfaces has been changed (according to Flight International).

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Ulfinator
Posted 2007-04-03 23:15:11 and read 6094 times.

Fair Use Except:

Quote:
"From the very beginning, Delta told us that a larger 767 would need to fit into LaGuardia's existing gate structure as well as continue being a good neighbor to the community," Weertman said. "Community noise and engine emission are huge issues at LaGuardia, and the 767-400ER was designed to help reduce them."

Seems Delta did have quite a bit of input

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2001/q2/news_release_010501a.html

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2007-04-03 23:25:16 and read 5948 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):
They also used 777 landing gear because of the weight increase IIRC.

The stretch of the fuselage is what really led to the 777 landing gear being used on the 764. The 763 landing gear were too short to be used on the 764 considering the extra length.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: DeltaDC9
Posted 2007-04-03 23:39:22 and read 5815 times.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 40):
The stretch of the fuselage is what really led to the 777 landing gear being used on the 764

Thanks, I guess I DNRC (Did Not Recall Correctly) !

Not sure where I got that, but I never did understand what was wrong with the existing gear. makes sense.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-03 23:40:32 and read 5780 times.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 40):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):
They also used 777 landing gear because of the weight increase IIRC.

The stretch of the fuselage is what really led to the 777 landing gear being used on the 764.

The gear was lengthened to allow a better rotation angle and it was also strengthened

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-03 23:42:35 and read 5763 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 41):
but I never did understand what was wrong with the existing gear.

the likelihood of tailstrike (among other issues) during rotation/landing were decreased by using the taller gear--- same reason the 752 was eventually given longer gear.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Del
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-04-03 23:43:39 and read 5765 times.

Also, many have pointed out the new interior. All new 767s currently produced feature the Boeing Signature (777-style) Interior, not just the 767-400. The only difference on the 767-400 is that it uses the 777-style windows.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2007-04-04 00:37:28 and read 5299 times.

Quoting IAHERJ (Reply 4):
I fly the 767-400 for another carrier in the U.S. whose former CEO was the Renton Division(757/767 division of Boeing) leader for a good bit before his job leading our airline.

The folks in Everett will be shocked to find out that the 767 is being (or was ever) built in Renton.

Even Gordon didn't know that.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2007-04-04 00:53:59 and read 5173 times.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):
They also used 777 landing gear because of the weight increase IIRC.

Funny, I never saw a 764ER with a six wheel main gear ala the 777.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 36):
A340-500/600
Fuselage Stretch
Extended & Strengthened Main Gear
Wingtip Extensions
New Wing Control Surfaces
Wing Spar Strengtening & Reinforcement
Engines: RR Trent556
Revised Interior
Wing Box Stretch
New Wing Root Plug


B767-400
Fuselage Stretch
Extended & Strengthened Main Gear inc wheels, brakes & tyres, and new gear retraction system.
Wingtip Extensions
Wing Spar Strengtening & Reinforcement
Redesigned Wing Skin Areas
Revised Empennage (Section 48)
Engines: GE CF6 & P&W 4000
New Interior
New redesigned Honeywell Cockpit
New APU
New Cabin Air System
New Electrical System
New Tail Skid

While the list sounds similar, the 345/6 wing changes were much more extensive and expensive. The 764ER changes were primary changes in skin and spar gauge (thickness). The A345/6 root insert and spar box changes altered all aspects of the wing.

And don't forget the A345/6 needed a four wheel centerline gear which meant an extensive centerline gear wheel revision.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 38):
I was surprised to find this, but theres actually very little parts commonality between the 767-400 & 767-300 wings, as almost everything from spars to surfaces has been changed (according to Flight International).

You could also make the same statement about the wing parts of a 772ER compared to a 772A. The parts are thicker because of the higher loads. The basic wing planform dimensions, except for the tip extension, are unchanged when going from a 763ER to a 764ER.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: B2707SST
Posted 2007-04-04 00:58:19 and read 5120 times.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 36):
Very close actually! I'll list the changes in both that I cant tink of off hand (feel free to make additions to the lists)

The number of changes may be similar, but the magnitude of those changes is very different. For example, the 767-400ER's MTOW increased 12.5% over the 763's; the A346's (non-HGW) increased 33% over the A343's. The cost of designing, tooling, and manufacturing a new wing root plug fitted to a legacy airfoil is probably an order of magnitude greater than attaching a raked wingtip to a strengthened legacy wing. Ditto fitting the Trent 500 to an aircraft originally equipped with the CFM56 -- representing a near doubling of installed power -- compared to at most a 1,400-pound thrust bump on the existing CF6-80C2B7F for the 764:

The engines are essentially unchanged from those available on the 767-300ER, except for external equipment revisions needed to accommodate the 120-kVA IDGs and digital bleed system. The 767-400ER is available with either Pratt & Whitney PW4062 (63,300 lb of Boeing equivalent thrust, or BET) or General Electric CF6-80C2B7F1 engines (62,100 lb BET). In addition, an increased-thrust B8F version of this engine (63,500 lb BET) is also available.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...zine/aero_03/textonly/ps01txt.html

In the now infamous Flight International article on A340-600 teething problems, Virgin admitted being surprised by the lack of parts and systems commonality between their A340-300s and -600s, which indicates other major internal changes: [Virgin's] Livings says that the -600 was "sold to us as a derivative aircraft, but it is not – there are lots of new systems and suppliers".

In any case, there seems to be general agreement that the 767-400's failure to sell more units was in part due to Boeing not going far enough in terms of major changes to the 767 platform. If the 767-400ERX had been produced from the start, it's likely there would have been significantly more orders, although I am certain the A330-200 still would have emerged the winner.

--B2707SST

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-04-04 01:12:16 and read 4993 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 46):
Funny, I never saw a 764ER with a six wheel main gear ala the 777.

...the aircraft retains a 4-truck bogie, but its gear platform is longer than that of other 767s, thus keeping it higher off the ground.

Topic: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta
Username: EI321
Posted 2007-04-04 01:53:16 and read 4681 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 48):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 46):
Funny, I never saw a 764ER with a six wheel main gear ala the 777.

...the aircraft retains a 4-truck bogie, but its gear platform is longer than that of other 767s, thus keeping it higher off the ground.

They looked at using six wheel 767 bogies, but went for a four wheel 767 bogie layout with 777 derived wheels & brakes.


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