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Topic: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-05-19 20:37:44 and read 9038 times.

Yeah, um...

DL 7963 LAX 1615-2115 ICT ERJ Daily
DL 7687 ICT 0820-0920 LAX ERJ Daily

Makes more sense than McAllen, at least. Starts 1 July 2007. Operated at-risk by ExpressJet.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: STT757
Posted 2007-05-19 20:40:14 and read 9022 times.

Could they catch some Boeing traffic between Long Beach and Wichita?

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-05-19 20:42:40 and read 9007 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Could they catch some Boeing traffic between Long Beach and Wichita?

With the 717 line long close, is there even much left? I would figure ICT-SEA has the Boeing traffic. TWA used to fly ICT-SEA.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: STT757
Posted 2007-05-19 20:43:19 and read 9007 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
With the 717 line long close, is there even much left?

Military.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: DeltaGuy
Posted 2007-05-19 20:43:29 and read 9007 times.

Amazing to see this...considering the crap ICT pulled with AirTran and subsidies. I'd just assume cut more service into there and see how their airport authority feels about it.

DeltaGuy

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Stirling
Posted 2007-05-20 00:14:56 and read 8656 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
TWA used to fly ICT-SEA.

I do not remember TW ever doing that, unless it was a routing via STL.
However, I do remember CO doing it, very briefly however: 1968.

To the topic, I cannot figure how they expect this route to succeed.......I don't know what y'all have, but my Q3/06 DOT shows 93 pax a day....or about 46.5 a day each direction; being serviced currently by any number of connections over DFW, DEN, and PHX.

Continental Route Map 1968


[Edited 2007-05-20 00:18:29]

[Edited 2007-05-20 00:21:15]

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Copaair737
Posted 2007-05-20 00:21:56 and read 8630 times.

What an odd route.
First McAllen, now this???

Odd route choices from DL that's for sure.

-Copa

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Kohflot
Posted 2007-05-20 01:21:02 and read 8522 times.

Anyone know if ICT is an overnight maintenance station for ExpressJet? This would make a bit more sense then..

And maybe this means we're one step closer to LAX-AMA, LAX-LBB, LAX-MAF, and LAX-RAP.. Big grin

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: CALeeIII
Posted 2007-05-20 01:29:33 and read 8496 times.

How about BHM-LAX? Does anyone think that would be ever possible? UA flew 2 727 a day back in the '70s....

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2007-05-20 01:29:58 and read 8496 times.

I saw this addition on Thursday and thought it was odd because a) it's probably something XJet would consider, but all things considered it would be better to operate it in any other airilne's colors and b) it's an odd addition considering DL's history vis a vis ICT Smile

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-05-20 01:37:00 and read 8466 times.

Quoting CALeeIII (Reply 8):
How about BHM-LAX? Does anyone think that would be ever possible? UA flew 2 727 a day back in the '70s....

I always thought this would be a good route for WN. The 145XR can't make that distance though.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: CALeeIII
Posted 2007-05-20 02:26:27 and read 8360 times.

Quoting XJET (Reply 10):
Quoting CALeeIII (Reply 8):
How about BHM-LAX? Does anyone think that would be ever possible? UA flew 2 727 a day back in the '70s....

I always thought this would be a good route for WN. The 145XR can't make that distance though.

I certainly didn't mean for an ERJ. But, what about the CRJ9 like the new BHM-SLC or the EMB170? WN does offer it as a 1-stop destination once a day.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2007-05-20 02:40:41 and read 8309 times.

Quoting CALeeIII (Reply 11):
But, what about the CRJ9 like the new BHM-SLC or the EMB170? WN does offer it as a 1-stop destination once a day.

It's a bit too long of a route for a CRJ-900 even - SLC-YYZ/PIT were pushing it (both are 1660 miles) while LAX-BHM is over 1800 miles. The smallest plane DL could do this on would be the 737-800, and I don't really see Delta putting that big of a plane on this route when passengers can just as easily connect over ATL or SLC.

Plus, the thought of spending over 4 hours flying time (not block time, but takeoff to touchdown) on an RJ is a bit crazy.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: TSRA
Posted 2007-05-20 02:55:45 and read 8257 times.

LAX is ICT's third most popular destination. I've posted in another thread that ICT (and surrounding area) has a very large Asian population (anyone who has worked in ICT and loaded all those 70lbs duck taped boxes to LAX and beyond can attest to that). What the 3rd quarter report does not show is how many people drive to MCI for a non-stop, cheaper flight. I'm sure DL and ICT kissed and made up after DL was given some money to support this. Knowing the central us market, this flight will do very well...... as long as the price is right. The ICT market is such that people actually weigh the cost of driving to MCI/OKC, parking, and cheap non-stop flights to flying out of ICT. Sometimes its cheaper to drive 2 1/2-3 hours then to fly from their hometown airport.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Copaair737
Posted 2007-05-20 03:00:09 and read 8238 times.

It's odd, as I would have expected LAX-MCI before LAX-ICT.

-Copa

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-05-20 03:09:42 and read 8208 times.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 13):
has a very large Asian population

Define very large. New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles have very large Asian populations. Wichita? Not so large.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 13):
(anyone who has worked in ICT and loaded all those 70lbs duck taped boxes to LAX and beyond can attest to that)

Then the ERJ isn't going to be a good aircraft choice for those huge boxes going to LAX.

Not saying the flight won't work, but let's not oversell it. An ERJ is perfect for O&D and the random person connecting to Tijuana.

[Edited 2007-05-20 03:16:02]

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Graphic
Posted 2007-05-20 03:21:36 and read 8160 times.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 6):

Odd route choices from DL that's for sure.

Actually, this is an at-risk route for Expressjet, which means XE is collecting the fares and basically paying DL for use of the brand.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: TSRA
Posted 2007-05-20 03:34:16 and read 8121 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 15):
Define very large. New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles have very large Asian populations. Wichita? Not so large.

Silly BigGSFO, of course New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles have larger Asian populations then Wichita. The point you missed was per capita in the REGION.....
Any way

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 14):
It's odd, as I would have expected LAX-MCI before LAX-ICT.

There are 2 very BIG reasons they do not do MCI-LAX
1) WN 4 non-stops a day
2) YX 3 non-stops a day
The low end of the ticket price range is covered obviously but WN and the high end by YX. It would be extremely difficult to use an RJ to compete against YX's product.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-20 03:36:55 and read 8109 times.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
TWA used to fly ICT-SEA.

I do not remember TW ever doing that, unless it was a routing via STL.

I remembered it vaguely running for a short time, but a little digging found it:

5x/week ICT-SEA nonstops on TWA M80's, February through June 1998

Averaged just under 25% full, or about 35 people per flight.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2007-05-20 03:40:24 and read 8096 times.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 17):
Silly BigGSFO, of course New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles have larger Asian populations then Wichita. The point you missed was per capita in the REGION.....
Any way

 Smile

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 18):
5x/week ICT-SEA nonstops on TWA M80's, February through June 1998

Averaged just under 25% full, or about 35 people per flight.

Indeed. They had high hopes for this flight but....

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: XJET
Posted 2007-05-20 04:10:43 and read 8033 times.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 17):
There are 2 very BIG reasons they do not do MCI-LAX
1) WN 4 non-stops a day
2) YX 3 non-stops a day
The low end of the ticket price range is covered obviously but WN and the high end by YX. It would be extremely difficult to use an RJ to compete against YX's product.

Yeah...but. Why are we going to be doing PHX, DEN, SEA, PDX, SFO, OAK....etc, etc, etc..... It doesn't seem like the DL or XE is trying to aviod major competition. DL needs feed for its new flights that are currently there, as well as future international expansion.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: OB1504
Posted 2007-05-20 05:12:13 and read 7896 times.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 6):
What an odd route.
First McAllen, now this???

Odd route choices from DL that's for sure.

Odd? Or an untapped niche market?  spin 

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2007-05-20 05:47:32 and read 7704 times.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
I do not remember TW ever doing that, unless it was a routing via STL.



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 18):
I remembered it vaguely running for a short time, but a little digging found it:

5x/week ICT-SEA nonstops on TWA M80's, February through June 1998

Averaged just under 25% full, or about 35 people per flight.



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
Indeed. They had high hopes for this flight but....

Yes, I remember it too, but WHY??? That has to be the oddest non-hub route I've ever seen.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Stirling
Posted 2007-05-20 05:50:32 and read 7687 times.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 13):
I've posted in another thread that ICT (and surrounding area) has a very large Asian population

Here is a look at Sedgewick County...And the list of the most popular languages spoken.
Vietnamese is up there. About one and half percent of the total population.

English 372,640 89.46%
All Languages other than English combined 43,884 10.53%
Spanish 26,105 6.26%
Vietnamese 6,220 1.49%
German 1,840 0.44%
Arabic 1,160 0.27%
Laotian 1,115 0.26%
French 1,104 0.26%
Chinese 1,069 0.25%
Tagalog 550 0.13%
Mon-Khmer, Cambodian 485 0.11%
Korean 435 0.10%
Urdu 383 0.09%
Hindi 375 0.09%
Japanese 330 0.07%
Persian 325 0.07%
Bengali 219 0.05%
Swahili 199 0.04%
Thai 130 0.03%
Greek 125 0.03%
Italian 125 0.03%
Dutch 124 0.02%
Cantonese 120 0.02%
Gujarathi 115 0.02%
Mandarin 90 0.02%
Portuguese 90 0.02%
Amharic 85 0.02%
Russian 84 0.02%
Bantu 80 0.01%
Romanian 74 0.01%
Formosan 70 0.01%

Source: US Census Estimate 2005

Quoting TSRA (Reply 13):
LAX is ICT's third most popular destination.

Source?
Latest figures I have come across are for Q3/06, have things changed that much since then?
LAX shows as 9th, Chicago being 3rd.

Destination | Avg Pax | Avg Fare
1. (LAS) 240.89 $193.76
2. (ATL) 233.56 $150.60
3. (ORD) 159.56 $255.13
4. (MCO) 130.67 $161.47
5. (PHX) 125.78 $238.31
6. (DEN) 104.22 $254.63
7. (DFW) 104.00 $257.91
8. (SEA) 96.22 $348.31
9. (LAX) 93.33 $270.51

Source: DOT

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 18):
5x/week ICT-SEA nonstops on TWA M80's, February through June 1998

I was only thinking 30 years the wrong way.

Wonder if Boeing had some sort of contract with Boeing for the flights? Since the two cities share the same industrial base and an employer (But not the only employer, as Wichita is more than just Boeing).

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: EVA777SEA
Posted 2007-05-20 06:21:09 and read 7558 times.

Quoting TSRA (Reply 13):
I've posted in another thread that ICT (and surrounding area) has a very large Asian population (anyone who has worked in ICT

The Asian population of the Wichita CSA is 18,780... No matter how large the metro area is, that is not a very significant Asian population...

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: FlyingJHawk
Posted 2007-05-20 06:26:11 and read 7529 times.

I travel to Wichita from Kansas City every week and I almost consider it a secondary residence so I am glad to see this non-stop route open up from purely a provincial perspective. In addition to Chicago, Dallas, Houston, St. Louis, Phoenix and Atlanta, ICT has hooked a non-stop flight to the farthest and largest metro area of the seven.

TSRA is correct. MCI is an option if you want to get to the LA area non-stop. After you figure in connecting flight time, the risk of losing luggage in transfer, and potentially price, MCI is not ideal, but certainly worth considering.

However, I can't really put my finger on where enough demand will come from to support this flight long tem. Connections on Delta to other cities, I don't think so. The Spirit / Boeing connection is Tulsa and Seattle and this route doesn't really support that business relationship. There are a total of approximately 35,000 aviation related jobs in Wichita but I see no obvious connection to Southern CA. I know a lot of folks in the area and Southenrn Califofnia isn't their preferred holiday destination. Perhaps they can pick up some folks that are stationed at Ft. Riley, but a 2 hr drive to MCI is just a bit more than the drive to ICT.

Finally, this flight in an ERJ is not going to 1) carry alot of frieght and 2) won't be the most comfortable filght given the distance. While I hope this city pair makes it long term, I am betting against it.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: TWAmbassador
Posted 2007-05-20 06:28:39 and read 7528 times.

The TW flight SEA-ICT was subsidized by Boeing so financially TW had nothing to lose. I think Boeing was hoping that by allowing TW to sell seats on the flights it would help off set the cost. TW had a very close relationship with Boeing over the years, even had a dedicated reservation line at one time.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: UA777300ER
Posted 2007-05-20 09:50:56 and read 7037 times.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 23):
Source?
Latest figures I have come across are for Q3/06, have things changed that much since then?
LAX shows as 9th, Chicago being 3rd.

May I ask, where do you get this kind of information? I've been looking around on the DOT and FAA websites, but can't find anything...

Tom

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: BN727flyr
Posted 2007-05-20 11:35:06 and read 6882 times.

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 7):
And maybe this means we're one step closer to LAX-AMA, LAX-LBB, LAX-MAF

That'll be the day.  Big grin

I'd love to see it, but I'm not holding my breath.  faint 

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-20 14:32:12 and read 6626 times.

Quoting TWAmbassador (Reply 26):
The TW flight SEA-ICT was subsidized by Boeing so financially TW had nothing to lose. I think Boeing was hoping that by allowing TW to sell seats on the flights it would help off set the cost. TW had a very close relationship with Boeing over the years, even had a dedicated reservation line at one time.

Thanks for the info...I wondered if it was something like that.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2007-05-20 15:40:12 and read 6438 times.

I wonder if eventually Express Jet's stand alone brand doesnt convert over to the DL "at risk flying",,This might be a test in certain" odd-ball" markets to see if Legacy affiliation does in fact carry more weight as far the ability to attract new customers??!!

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2007-05-20 17:21:14 and read 6107 times.

Is Delta going LAX to Seoul, South Korea with a 777 ? That would be great. I would love to see those new 777LR's from LAX to Asia.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: PVD757
Posted 2007-05-21 00:25:20 and read 5300 times.

routes like these make me hold out the tiniest bit of hope that PVD has a slim chance for a LAX flight once those 73Gs start arriving...

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Ginger727
Posted 2007-05-21 15:51:25 and read 5032 times.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me at the moment, but DL and XJet consider the ICT-LAX market to include not just LAX, but the entire LA Basin. So, if you add up the passengers going from ICT to Burbank, Long Beach, Ontario, Orange County, etc., that is how they figured it was Wichita's number 3 market without nonstop service. As to the ERJ aircraft on a stage length that long, consider XJet is flying nonstop from Kansas City, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, etc to Ontario already, all about the same time enroute as ICT to LA. Now, whether anyone actually LIKES to do that is another story! Just look at the the load factors on those routes and it's a good clue.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: HVNandrew
Posted 2007-05-21 20:05:30 and read 4865 times.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 30):
I wonder if eventually Express Jet's stand alone brand doesnt convert over to the DL "at risk flying",,This might be a test in certain" odd-ball" markets to see if Legacy affiliation does in fact carry more weight as far the ability to attract new customers??!!

Interesting thought. In that case, DL could use the SAT XJet base to regain some ground in Texas and build up a nice little micro-hub.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Jumbojettim
Posted 2007-05-21 21:40:46 and read 4744 times.

The loads on the midwest cities to ONT, are picking up, it does take some time. Keep in mind that the a/c that XE is going to use for the DL flying will have the refurbished seats (with memory foam) with XM radio.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Ginger727
Posted 2007-05-22 02:35:17 and read 4583 times.

As to DeltaGuy's comments about the airport authority and "the crap they pulled with AirTran and subsidies," it may not mean much, but the airport doesn't have anything to do with the subsidies. They are being paid largely by the State of Kansas (about $5 million a year), plus $1 million a year each from Sedgwick County and the City of Wichita. The contract with AirTran to provide the revenue guarantee is between the airline and the county. The airport is owned and operated by the Wichita Airport Authority, a separate legal entity than the city, and the airport provides no subsidies to any carriers. The airline offers financial incentives, ranging from free or reduced landing fees and rents, to advertising support, to start up expense assistance, etc, to ANY airline that provides specified new service to a top 20 market.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2007-05-22 03:20:16 and read 4515 times.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 31):
Is Delta going LAX to Seoul, South Korea with a 777 ? That would be great. I would love to see those new 777LR's from LAX to Asia.

it is probably more likely that new LRs will be based in ATL and the 777ERs will move to LAX. There are few markets from LAX that NEED a 777LR.

Quoting Ginger727 (Reply 36):
The airport is owned and operated by the Wichita Airport Authority, a separate legal entity than the city, and the airport provides no subsidies to any carriers.

yes but didn't Wichita have to do some organizational changes because even the FAA was not comfortable that the difference between the airport authority and the city of Wichita was great enough for these subsidies; thus the organizational changes.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: CitationJet
Posted 2007-05-22 03:33:15 and read 4493 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
yes but didn't Wichita have to do some organizational changes because even the FAA was not comfortable that the difference between the airport authority and the city of Wichita was great enough for these subsidies; thus the organizational changes.

I believe that is true:
http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=1832

See pages 16-20:
http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/...597D/0/04192005Council_Minutes.pdf

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Ginger727
Posted 2007-05-22 05:39:07 and read 4396 times.

There have been no organizational changes to the way the airport is staffed or run as a result of the Delta complaint to the FAA over the city subsidy program with AirTran. The organizational changes took place several years before AirTran came to Wichita,and of course were unrelated to this issue of subsidies. The FAA dismissed the investigation of the airport and city and the DL complaint last summer because the city no longer contracts with AirTran for the revenue guarantee. The county took over the contract in May of 2006, and the contract is solely between FL and the county, which has no connection in any way with the airport. Maybe it's just a technicality, but anyone can offer a subsidy to an airline, except an airport operator or its owner sponsor. A number of communities have done this for years, going back to at least the 1980s when the ski resorts subsidized airlines going into mountain airports. Other communities have provided airline subsidies through their chambers of commerce, among other organizations that are unrelated to airports.

Topic: RE: DL To Start LAX-ICT
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2007-05-22 17:55:13 and read 4192 times.

Quoting Ginger727 (Reply 33):
As to the ERJ aircraft on a stage length that long, consider XJet is flying nonstop from Kansas City, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, etc to Ontario already, all about the same time enroute as ICT to LA. Now, whether anyone actually LIKES to do that is another story! Just look at the the load factors on those routes and it's a good clue.

CO ran the ExpressJet 145XR's on routes approximately that long for years prior to this. IAH-BOI/BFL. EWR-OKC. CLE-ABQ. They were out there.


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