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Topic: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Mainland
Posted 2007-05-17 12:41:11 and read 6158 times.

AirTran Holdings, Inc., Extends Midwest Air Tender Offer to June 8, 2007
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070517/nyth046a.html?.v=3

Tender offer is extended to June 8th, more than 13.9 million shares (approx 56.6%) have been tendered to AirTran.

[Edited 2007-05-17 13:13:35]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-17 13:27:10 and read 6123 times.

If there was no poison pill and no anti-hostile-takeover statutes in Wisconsin, this would probably be it.

However there are.

I suspect this just sets up the boardinng meeting showdown where AirTran's three nominees may get elected to the board. If so they will be the minority at least until next year, as one of several anti-takeover measures put into place was to stagger the board terms. Only 3 of 9 members up every year.

If AirTran succeeds in getting 3 seats on the board, that in essence gives the rest of the Midwest BOD a year to (a) negotiate and come to an agreement with AirTran (b) find another buyer,either airline or equity investment group, or (c) find a way to take the company private, either with equity investors, serious debt leveraging, or both.

If have a majority of shares tendered was indeed "it", then there would be no point in them extending the offer, which they have again.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-17 13:57:35 and read 6069 times.

Very well put Knope2001.

I think that this is FAR from over. Although this is a "victory" for AirTran, there is still many battles to be fought before this is over.

Looking forward to hearing a response from YX. No intetrnal communications yet.

A sad day for YX.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 14:01:33 and read 6055 times.

AirTran is paying far too much. This will end them if they get the takeover. They aren't making money today, and buying Midwest isn't going to help them one bit.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-05-17 14:15:32 and read 6034 times.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 2):
I think that this is FAR from over. Although this is a "victory" for AirTran, there is still many battles to be fought before this is over.

It's just a matter of time, and how much it is going to cost FL.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
AirTran is paying far too much. This will end them if they get the takeover. They aren't making money today, and buying Midwest isn't going to help them one bit.

The business case for buying Midwest seems sound enough to me. How do you figure it wont help them out?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2007-05-17 14:22:53 and read 6015 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
The business case for buying Midwest seems sound enough to me. How do you figure it wont help them out?

I agree. This is one of the most logical mergers of any I've seen in 20 years. The synergies with routes and fleets are great.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 14:34:15 and read 5982 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 5):
This is one of the most logical mergers of any I've seen in 20 years. The synergies with routes and fleets are great.

It doesn't matter what your synergies are if you take on excessive debt and a staff of ticked off employees. They will get slaughtered by access hungry airlines at MKE.

Consider this: You've done what is essentially a hostile take over, you have irritated the employees, you have no public brand loyalty and you're operatign at an airport that can be raided overnight by the other carriers who see this weakness (not to mention you probably see a few more "unscheduled" delays than normal that the other carriers won't have). That's how you get slaughtered. MKE isn't some fortress hub. It's small and ripe for raiding.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-05-17 14:37:56 and read 5972 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
MKE isn't some fortress hub. It's small and ripe for raiding.

Then let FL raid. FL has lots of new shiney 737's coming off the line. And if you think it is so easy to do, why did NW fail in it's raid?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Rumorboy
Posted 2007-05-17 14:38:29 and read 5967 times.

Even if the use the poison pill they still have majority of the shares.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
They aren't making money today, and buying Midwest isn't going to help them one bit.

Funny you say that. Airtran had a first quarter profit. Fornano announced last week they would have "record earning's" in the second quarter and been profitable on annual basis for eight years's straight.

I think when Midwest announced earnings last quarter and didn't do"as expected"(Tim's words) and then lowered guidance for the year, most share holders began to question Midwests real motives.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-17 14:48:52 and read 5938 times.

It will be very sad if Airtran buys Midwest. I have had nothing but good experiences with Midwest and Airtran has never done anything for me other than be a steaming pile of junk. Missed connections, sat me on a runway for 3 hours waiting for a mechanic because they did not have one around and had to page him in that morning.

I have flown Airtran for at least 5 trips in the past couple of years and have had something go wrong in or out everytime. I am usually amazed if I hit my connection. My company no longer even tries to book with Airtran it got so bad.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-17 14:53:48 and read 5915 times.

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 8):
Even if the use the poison pill they still have majority of the shares.

But it will cost AirTran a hell of alot more money out of their own pocket instread of using the money Midwest has.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 14:54:20 and read 5908 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 7):
Then let FL raid. FL has lots of new shiney 737's coming off the line. And if you think it is so easy to do, why did NW fail in it's raid?

Brand loyalty and between the two there were minimal fare differences. You take away the product and the model changes. They either don't care because they have no plans to stay, or they're stupid.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Mainland
Posted 2007-05-17 15:20:51 and read 5856 times.

Midwest's reply:

Midwest Air Group Comments on Results of AirTran's Unsolicited Exchange Offer
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070517/aqth086.html?.v=4

Quote:
MILWAUKEE, May 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Midwest Air Group, Inc. (Amex: MEH - News), parent company of Midwest Airlines, today responded to the announcement by AirTran Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: AAI - News) of the preliminary results of its unsolicited exchange offer, which expired yesterday and was extended until June 8.

"Nothing has changed as far as control of Midwest Air Group is concerned; no shares have been purchased by AirTran," said Carol N. Skornicka, senior vice president, general counsel and secretary. "The exchange offer is subject to numerous conditions. Regardless of the number of shares tendered, AirTran would not purchase shares unless those conditions are waived or are satisfied."

Skornicka explained that several significant actions would have to be taken by the Midwest Board of Directors for those conditions to be satisfied, including waiving the provisions of Wisconsin law that protect Wisconsin corporations from hostile takeovers. "The board has declined to take action to satisfy any of the conditions," she pointed out. "While other scenarios are theoretically possible, as a practical matter, board approval would be required for AirTran to accomplish its goal of acquiring our company."

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 15:22:43 and read 5848 times.

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 8):
Funny you say that. Airtran had a first quarter profit. Fornano announced last week they would have "record earning's" in the second quarter and been profitable on annual basis for eight years's straight.

At those levels, they'd be done in a week long strike.

Biggest key right here.

Quoting Mainland (Reply 12):
Skornicka explained that several significant actions would have to be taken... including waiving the provisions of Wisconsin law that protect Wisconsin corporations from hostile takeovers. ..."


[Edited 2007-05-17 15:26:21]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Rumorboy
Posted 2007-05-17 15:27:27 and read 5830 times.

looks like ovactian wants a deal now.


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070517/aqth086.html?.v=4

ADVERTISEMENT


"The acceptance of AirTran's offer by the majority of shareholders is a clear indication of the desire of Midwest's owners for the board of directors to immediately engage in productive and good faith negotiations to effectuate a transaction," Richard Hurowitz, CEO of Octavian, said. "The number of shares already tendered into the exchange offer is remarkable given that Midwest has not yet even turned over its shareholder list to AirTran.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 15:34:45 and read 5797 times.

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 14):
"The number of shares already tendered into the exchange offer is remarkable given that Midwest has not yet even turned over its shareholder list to AirTran.

That's because the shareholders aren't tendering them, speculators who manage the shares are. You have an entire street of invesment strategists that are under the false impression that airline mergers are required and that the system has too much capacity. The shareholders are acting on this false advice. Not the first time, won't be the last either.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2007-05-17 15:38:00 and read 5789 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
It doesn't matter what your synergies are if you take on excessive debt and a staff of ticked off employees.

I think the only "ticked off" employees are senior management. If a majority of the shareholders want a deal, this is looking more and more like extortion at the upper levels of MEH. As far as the rest of MEH employees and pilots, I would think they would have a better chance for advancement flying company planes rather than outsourced ones.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Sideflare75
Posted 2007-05-17 15:51:36 and read 5748 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):
I think the only "ticked off" employees are senior management.

Think again.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-17 16:18:54 and read 5662 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
That's because the shareholders aren't tendering them, speculators who manage the shares are.

BINGO!

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 17):
Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):
I think the only "ticked off" employees are senior management.

Think again.

Exactly! However this is far from over though.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2007-05-17 16:23:14 and read 5648 times.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 1):
If AirTran succeeds in getting 3 seats on the board, that in essence gives the rest of the Midwest BOD a year to (a) negotiate and come to an agreement with AirTran (b) find another buyer,either airline or equity investment group, or (c) find a way to take the company private, either with equity investors, serious debt leveraging, or both.

Good review of the situation. I think option (c) needs to be broken down between heavy debt leveraging or not. Probably the only path left that will not result in significant changes to the business model is taking the company private with investors who believe in the model.

Knope, as the board's resident expert on Midwest, do believe Hoeksema is up to this challenge? I mean is he the right guy to bring the company through this successfully?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2007-05-17 16:26:07 and read 5631 times.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 18):
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
That's because the shareholders aren't tendering them, speculators who manage the shares are.

BINGO!

So speculators are not shareholders and in turn are not investors? How long are these "speculators" required to hold their shares? If they are managing a hedge or mutual fund, are they required to forget about what is best for the investors of the fund (like making a profit on their shares)?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-17 16:34:08 and read 5612 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):
I think the only "ticked off" employees are senior management.

I can name a few more ticked off employees than you can... Big grin  Cool

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-17 16:34:43 and read 5612 times.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 19):
Knope, as the board's resident expert on Midwest, do believe Hoeksema is up to this challenge? I mean is he the right guy to bring the company through this successfully?

Thanks for the compliment!

I know there are some (including employees) who are not particularly fond of Hoekesma, however I believe he is the right person for the task of trying to keep MEH out of AAI's hands at this point for several reasons:

(a) It would be hard to find somebody at this level to come in who has a greater personal interest in doing whatever it takes to keep Midwest from being sucked into another airline. He was with the company back in it's earliest formative stage when it was going to be a premium-service airline flying Appleton-Chicago-O'Hare-Atlanta/Fulton County in the early 80's. He's been at the helm through every up and down along the way, and he's not likely to let the fruits of 25+ years of work be dismantled and absorbed. If MIdwest indeed sells out to AirTran, Hoeksema

(b) He has long-standing connections within the local business community, and if anybody is going to glean support from that sector it will be him.

(c) Changing horses mid-stream in a battle like this is probably not the best course of action. Like him or not, it would be hard to find someone else to run the show who has more of a stake in it than he does.

Pure speculation on my part has the three AirTran directors elected in June, and that Midwest comes up with a non-AirTran alternative to buy the company and keep it independent. I just hope that it does not damage the company financially (like massive debt) that it does long-term damage. TIme will tell, I guess.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tender
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2007-05-17 16:52:04 and read 5574 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
The business case for buying Midwest seems sound enough to me. How do you figure it wont help them out?

Some of you have seen this, as it's an old post of mine. But here are some potential problems

Quote:
I've been thinking a lot about t he as yet unexplained reasons that a lot of shareholders are hesitant to tender, and after looking over this thread and others, I think part of the problem is that AAI is being intellectually dishonest about the merger. There are circumstances under which a FL/YX merger would make a lot of sense, but AAI is yet to articulate them. In particular, more intelligent analysis in the following areas would help get shareholders (and the MEH BoD) on board with the merger:


* AAI needs to explain the relatively poor performance of its own stock. If I were an investor, the fact that AAI is $5 (about 30%) off its 52 week high would be a huge issue for me. AAI is never going to make an offer that is 100% cash, and so the health of its stock is of huge consequence to the long-term investor. How are they going to right the ship? They have almost completely ignored this question

* On a related note, AAI needs to articulate a viable long-term plan for the combined company. We've heard a fairly comprehensive plan for MKE (more on that below), but simultaneously, we know that FL has pulled planes off of business routes at DFW and MDW to add Florida flying, and we know that YX is growing its two focus cities, OMA and MCI. How does all of this fit together? Where does a city like BWI fit into all of this? We haven't heard yet

* What are the hidden costs of the merger? For example, J7 owes the city of Nashville a whole bunch of money, and FL will not be welcome there until this issue is resolved. This one is fairly common knowledge, but what other skeletons are in the closet?

* AAI needs to more honestly address the issue of jobs. In the short term, this merger will result in job losses in Wisconsin. Ordinarily, this wouldn't be a big deal. Mergers have synergies. Some employees are no longer necessary. Unfortunately, under Wisconsin law, this loss of Wisconsin jobs is a valid reason for the BoD of MEH to ask AAI to pay more. AAI only talks about the job gains, but MEH is concerned about job losses

* What will happen to service standards? This isn't about how everyone loves cookies (though I'll admit that every time I fly YX, I try to get 2, and the last time I flew AL, there was a deadheading pilot who slept the whole flight except when the cookies came around). We know that hot cookies and the current YX meals will not exist any longer. Yet, AAI says that they will start using the "best practices" of the current YX. This is a very creative way to say absolutely nothing. What does this mean?

* What place to RJs have in AAI's long term plans? Even the most ardent supporter of FL will concede that the ZW experiment failed. But they want to keep AL and OO around? The feed provided by regional carriers is an important part of the success of the MKE hub, and the addition of seats that comes with reconfigured 712s combined with the loss of this feed would prima facie seem like a recipe for disaster.

* And finally, what is the plan for MKE? We've heard these grand stories of a 350 flight hub. I've detailed in another thread why I don't think this is viable. In many markets, AAI proposes to fill 2 or 3 times the number of seats that AA and UA fill at ORD with about 1/4 the local market and about 1/2 the feed. Chicago is not a particularly high-fare market, so even the argument that low fares will stimulate the market doesn't get us there. I think MKE could probably support what I call "MEM-lite," a 150 daily flight hub of 3 banks. Why does AAI think it can support so much more?

* What if someone mounts a competitive response at MKE? If the merger goes through, there is no way that FL keeps E60 and E61. That leaves NW and CO with 9 gates and about 25 daily flights between them. NW could build a focus city similar to what they currently do at IND with very little trouble, and at IND, they compete successfully with FL AND WN. That spells potential trouble. B6 is looking for a midwest foothold. F9 is beginning to expand more and more outside of DEN. What if one of them enters (or, in the case of F9, grows) MKE? Both offer a better product. Has FL even considered these possibilities?

* And finally, there is the question of customer backlash in Milwaukee. Despite being a native of the upper midwest, I don't understand the loyalties that are present there. I do know that all AAI says is that lower prices will win hearts and minds. What if they are wrong?



I assume AAI has considered all of these issues. If they really want this merger to happen, they need to address them honestly.




Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 7):
And if you think it is so easy to do, why did NW fail in it's raid?



YX was there. NW can raid FL much more easily than it can raid YX.

[Edited 2007-05-17 16:53:21]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyyMaster
Posted 2007-05-17 17:00:29 and read 5539 times.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 2):
Very well put Knope2001.

 checkmark 

Quoting N917ME (Reply 2):
A sad day for YX.

Airtran seems hellbent on making this happen. I'm not sure it will be of benefit to the employees of YX, their pax, or the people of Milwaukee in the long run. Stay tuned, this looks as if it will drag out a long while.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 17:19:19 and read 5510 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 20):
So speculators are not shareholders and in turn are not investors?

It's not E-trade day traders offering advice to shareholders and moving portfolios. Its portfolio managers making recommendations to the shareholders on flawed assumptions about the present aviation environment.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: MPDPilot
Posted 2007-05-17 17:45:08 and read 5471 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 5):
I agree. This is one of the most logical mergers of any I've seen in 20 years. The synergies with routes and fleets are great.

How do you figure? Yes they have the same planes and relatively complementry route structures, but that is about it. They offer extremely different products in what I would say are extremely different markets. I have to say that these two companies dont really go together in fact they could probably operate side by side and have very little affect on each other.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 17:54:19 and read 5444 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
And finally, what is the plan for MKE? We've heard these grand stories of a 350 flight hub. I've detailed in another thread why I don't think this is viable. In many markets, AAI proposes to fill 2 or 3 times the number of seats that AA and UA fill at ORD with about 1/4 the local market and about 1/2 the feed. Chicago is not a particularly high-fare market, so even the argument that low fares will stimulate the market doesn't get us there. I think MKE could probably support what I call "MEM-lite," a 150 daily flight hub of 3 banks. Why does AAI think it can support so much more?

Excellent points. Also of note, this temporary advantage will be nullified when O'Hare modernization is complete providing a 60% increase in O'Hare's capacity. Even if they were successful at an MKE build up, they'd get slaughtered at the end of the day because of the capacity pressure release at O'Hare reducing the current northward trip trend (that incidentally people are willing to make because of product differentiation in the form of a business class seat).

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-17 17:55:48 and read 5443 times.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 24):
Airtran seems hellbent on making this happen. I'm not sure it will be of benefit to the employees of YX, their pax, or the people of Milwaukee in the long run. Stay tuned, this looks as if it will drag out a long while.

The funny thing is that Airtran doesn't know how to take a hint. Midwest's employees have made it clear that they don't want to work for a bottom-of-the-barrell company, and are completely happy working for the company that has earned the title "America's Favorite Little Airline." This airline has built itself from the ground up in an honest way and built supreme passenger loyalty through service, as compared to Airtran who has no brand loyalty and truly goes for the lowest common denominator as its customer. Therefore, YX's passengers would also be in for one heck of a downturn in service and have made it clear that they do not want this to happen and if it did, they would take their business elsewhere. And the people of Milwaukee and Wisconsin have made it clear that they are not interested in this type of acquisition, otherwise these state statutes would not already be in place. Not to mention the fact that the YX BOD has already told Airtran SEVERAL times to bugger off. Yet, Airtran doesn't see this as a resounding NO. In fact, if you read their press releases, they make it sound like YX shareholders are desperate for FL to takeover, which is 180 degrees from their true feelings.

Airtran's only motive in this is to take down the competition. They have no intent to turn MKE into the mega-fortress hub that they say they will. They want to take down the competition, they will stay in MKE, but flight options that YX provides would be slashed in half, and they will get a load of airplanes that they couldn't schmooze Boeing into continuing production of. And yet, they keep extending their offer over and over in the vain hope and attempt that YX shareholders will change their mind. They've already made their feelings clear. They may be willing to sell, but they would hold out for than Airtran can afford, not that Airtran would be able to realize that until they go belly up.

Perhaps YX should begin a campaign like Delta did with a "Keep Midwest My Midwest." That would get the word out of what is happening and allow more of YX and Milwaukee's citizens to see the true actions behind this acquisition attempt.

Just goes to show what kind of company that Airtran is, when its basically had to resort to pleading and begging in order to acquire another airline.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-17 17:56:27 and read 5432 times.

A significant portion of the MEH company stock is now owned by firms looking to make a quick buck. The buyout offer put the stock "in play" and that attracted institutional short-term players who don't know much about the company stock they purchsed and couldn't care less if it was an airline, a meatpacking company, nursing home chain or a software develompent firm.

These investment firms park money in the stock of such acquisition targets by accumulating whatever is out there on the market for sale. This buying encourages real long-term investors to sell as it keeps the price up, although they are careful not to make the stock too hot so that it gets too expensive for them to acquire.

The only goal of the investment firm is to make a profit on the money the parked into that particular stock. They don't really care that it is AirTran wanting MIdwest, and if a better offer comes along they'll turn against AirTran in a heartbeat.

The bulk of the rhetoric and actions going on now have nothing to do with Midwest and their business plan, nor with AirTran and their plans for Midwest after the merger. Now it's about the institutional speculative investors getting their profits out of the deal no matter the outcome.

Keep that in mind when trying to link things like company performance, outlook, strategic plans, etc, to what's going on now. It isn't that the owners of the company believe in AirTran's plans or are against what Midwest is doing. It really isn't about that anymore, neither from the Midwest nor the AirTran side, when it comes down to how this will ultimately be decided.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2007-05-17 18:04:06 and read 5414 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 25):
It's not E-trade day traders offering advice to shareholders and moving portfolios. Its portfolio managers making recommendations to the shareholders on flawed assumptions about the present aviation environment.

The present environment is that MEH is now at $15 and before all this happened it was between $8-9. There is nothing flawed about taking a bird in hand. If this deal goes away, so will that premium. Any good portfolio manager that does his job, will lock in those gains and not give a second thought as to who the buyer is. If the deal goes away and the stock drops, there is nothing stopping them from re entering the stock.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-17 18:19:32 and read 5388 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 30):
If this deal goes away, so will that premium.

The premium has to be sustainable, and it won't be if they take over Midwest. The primary reason carriers don't hammer away at MKE right now is because its a hub with a competitively priced "premium" product that they are unable to effectively raid. If you remove the product (not just seats and yield here), you remove the entry barrier. Barrier removed, end game. This isn't about one airline replacing another with a like product, AirTran does not have a better product than the other carriers that will allow them to fend off the competition. This isn't about airline market price, it's about PRODUCT. Any investor who thinks its about price doesn't understand why it is that Midwest exists and they will be sorely disappointed when their investment gets flushed down the proverbial toilet.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-17 18:55:57 and read 5334 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):
I would think they would have a better chance for advancement flying company planes rather than outsourced ones.

Not sure what you're talking about here, the only outsourced planes in YX are the OO CRJs, and in any event, they along with Skyway, would likely be gone if the merger goes through. As Cubsrule quoted before, FL and regional services don't mix well.

And then, there's Great Lakes picking up the EAS. Makes you wonder who they'll codeshare with, if anyone, in MKE should YX disappear.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2007-05-17 19:16:36 and read 5288 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):
Perhaps YX should begin a campaign like Delta did with a "Keep Midwest My Midwest." That would get the word out of what is happening and allow more of YX and Milwaukee's citizens to see the true actions behind this acquisition attempt.

http://www.savethecookie.com/

Granted, it's not nearly as well-advertised as DL's efforts were.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-18 03:41:04 and read 5095 times.

I'd like to thank the people who have recognized what is different about Midwest. The product.

The reason that NW and others have not been able to affect Midwest is that they cannot offer the premium service that Midwest offers.

Should AirTran be successful - then AirTran's product can be easily competed against. Not only that - but AirTran can only get a very small percentage of the existing Midwest customer base.

The more accurate comparison - using automobiles - is like this:

Midwest is selling Lexus's; and they have pretty much locked up the Lexus market in the cities they operate in.

NW and other mainline airlines are the Fords, Chevy's, and GM's. Some premium product - but much of their product is just average (and some below average).

AirTran is selling Yugo's (for those of you who remember them) while Southwest is selling Honda Civics.

NW and other mainline airlines can sell some premium product - and can get some of the Midwest customer base ; but does not have the capacity in their averaged fleets to take most Lexus customers. Thus, they have failed to put Midwest out of business.

People who buy Lexus's will not buy a Yugo - ever. They might buy a Civic for their kids and occasionally ride in one.

AirTran would end up with a bunch of planes and gates while loosing all of the Midwest customers (except for a few extreme cases).

There is not enough other people interested in the Yugo market in Milwaukee - or reasonable driving distance - to fill planes. I just can't see how AirTran can be more than marginally successful in the Milwaukee market - and likely unsuccessful were they to get the Midwest planes, equipment, employees, etc.

I've spent about a week looking at the situation and have concluded that AirTran has nothing that Midwest wants.

However, looking at the financial situation with AirTran and their scheduled plane deliveries. Could it be that AirTran needs Midwest in order to avoid starting to sink in the next couple of years? What will happen to AirTran if they can't pay for or take possession of those planes and put them into really good use doing something?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-05-18 16:10:04 and read 4931 times.

Something else of interest in a Baltimore paper today:

Late yesterday, Midwest announced a "code share" deal with Northwest, with each airline selling seats on the other's flights.

Skornicka said the deal would add 250 city-pairs and allow customers to book travel and earn mileage awards on both carriers.

"We haven't put a value on it - and we probably won't," she said. "But it was part of the board's thinking in rejecting AirTran. And there are other aspects of our strategic plan that we'll release when it's appropriate."


So I was right on the other thread when I said that this was part of Midwest plan to try and raise revenue. I really dont know how far it will go to try to fend off Airtran, but I hope the merger takes place.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Tedex
Posted 2007-05-18 17:09:23 and read 4879 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 34):
I'd like to thank the people who have recognized what is different about Midwest. The product.

The reason that NW and others have not been able to affect Midwest is that they cannot offer the premium service that Midwest offers.

Should AirTran be successful - then AirTran's product can be easily competed against. Not only that - but AirTran can only get a very small percentage of the existing Midwest customer base.

The more accurate comparison - using automobiles - is like this:

Love the analogy... And also, welcome to my respected user list.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-18 17:36:42 and read 4856 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 35):
So I was right on the other thread when I said that this was part of Midwest plan to try and raise revenue. I really dont know how far it will go to try to fend off Airtran, but I hope the merger takes place.

Why? Airtran will get killed at both MCI and in Wisky. They will simply be another low cost garbage hauler and will open themselves up to lots of competition. Midwest has a lot of positive goodwill in both communities that Air Tran will not have. In fact Air Tran is really not liked much at all.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 18:15:41 and read 4814 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
AirTran is paying far too much. This will end them if they get the takeover. They aren't making money today, and buying Midwest isn't going to help them one bit.

Justify your remarks please. how do you figure they aren't making money?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 18:18:39 and read 4801 times.

For the good or the bad, Joe Leonard almost always gets what he wants. There must be some merit in all this to pursue so vehemently. I know the man. I worked for him. Tenacious.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-18 18:19:34 and read 4801 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 39):
Justify your remarks please. how do you figure they aren't making money?

Do you know how insignificant your profit margins are relative to what it will cost for you to survive against a downturn or Delta's bankrupsty emergence? Yes, you turn a very thin profit, but you aren't making any money. You're a paycheck away from a foreclosure.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 40):
I know the man. I worked for him. Tenacious.

He's also an ass.

[Edited 2007-05-18 18:24:08]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 18:24:39 and read 4788 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):

So as to not get my wrist slapped and a little suspension for a few days, I will not comment on Otto's post other than to say... here we go again, with his very own, private little war...

Almost all the other posters give some validation to their remarks. Others, however, only spout off.

I really don't know what happened to you while employed at AirTran, but I think it's high time you moved on and got over it.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 18:26:13 and read 4782 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 34):
I'd like to thank the people who have recognized what is different about Midwest. The product.

The reason that NW and others have not been able to affect Midwest is that they cannot offer the premium service that Midwest offers.

A leather seat and a cookie. Oh boy!!

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-18 18:26:25 and read 4782 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 40):
For the good or the bad, Joe Leonard almost always gets what he wants. There must be some merit in all this to pursue so vehemently. I know the man. I worked for him. Tenacious.

Great, if he wants to take on a bunch of overhead, planes, people, debt and what not to get access to routes that are not going to fly his airline then more power too him. People who always get what they want are not necessarily good business people. They are just grown up versions of spolied children.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-18 18:28:46 and read 4776 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 43):
A leather seat and a cookie. Oh boy!!

Better than a sardine can with 4" less pitch, a 3" reduction in seat width and a couple of peanut chuckers.

[Edited 2007-05-18 18:29:38]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 18:29:25 and read 4776 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 41):
Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 39):
Justify your remarks please. how do you figure they aren't making money?

Do you know how insignificant your profit margins are relative to what it will cost for you to survive against a downturn or Delta's bankrupsty emergence? Yes, you turn a very thin profit, but you aren't making any money. You're a paycheck away from a foreclosure.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 40):
I know the man. I worked for him. Tenacious.

He's also an ass.

Doesn't affect me any more at all. I work in the medical field now. Making twice what I did at FL. A paycheck away from foreclosure? Come on. Don't be so melodramatic folks. And... I never said he wasn't an ass. He is that too. What I said was... he's very tenacious. Big difference.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-18 18:30:33 and read 4768 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 46):
Doesn't affect me any more at all.

Then why bother arguing here?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-18 18:34:53 and read 4762 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 43):
A leather seat and a cookie. Oh boy!!

It is not just that for people flying it. I can be reasonably sure that if I fly Midwest I will get where I am scheduled to go on time. Air Tran seems to have all sorts of problems in this regard.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 19:23:15 and read 4728 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 47):
Then why bother arguing here?

I enjoy watching people argue about things that they have an emotional attachment to rather than a logical business decision about the argument. But, of course, that's all subjective anyway. Bottom line... it's up to the BOD and shareholders to decide. I guess it's just too bad that the public doesn't get a vote... oh wait... you do get a vote, by boycotting, right? Don't fly FL. Fine. It's not like there isn't someone standing next to you that needs to hop a plane to somewhere... Hmm. As usual, nothing but armchair CEO's abound.

[Edited 2007-05-18 19:25:22]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-18 19:59:16 and read 4675 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 49):
I enjoy watching people argue about things that they have an emotional attachment to rather than a logical business decision about the argument. But, of course, that's all subjective anyway. Bottom line... it's up to the BOD and shareholders to decide. I guess it's just too bad that the public doesn't get a vote... oh wait... you do get a vote, by boycotting, right? Don't fly FL. Fine. It's not like there isn't someone standing next to you that needs to hop a plane to somewhere... Hmm. As usual, nothing but armchair CEO's abound.

Actually one can make a pretty good business argument against this merger. AirTran is nothing special in the MCI, MKE market. Midwest makes what it makes because people will pay a little more to fly with them. AirTran will be looked at as just another carrier with just another fair. People will fly it if they have to but I would bet that as soon as Airtran buys Midwest another carrier will look to move in on those markets and the only thing AirTran can compete with is price.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-18 20:04:22 and read 4663 times.

I'm almost hesitant to jump into this thread at this point because I don't want to get sucked down the ugly whirlpool that these FL/YX ones often become, but maybe this is a different direction to go.

When it comes down to it I suspect there are a couple of almost-certainties now in play:

(a) AirTran will not walk away from this and let Midwest be as they were. The time for that passed when the bulk of MEH stock went into the hands of institutional investors looking for short-term profit. MEH won't stay as-is.

(b) The Midwest board is likely to be looking for any reasonable way to avoid the AirTran takeover. While the official message has been (and probably NEEDS to be) "the buyout price does not adequately match the true long-term value of the company", in fact they probably don't want to sell, period. So I suspect all along the company has been looking for alternatives in case push came to shove, which it has. The clause in the Skywest deal for them to inject $25 million wasn't just some standard boilerplate, and I suspect it wasn't the only contingency they made.

(c) The pro-AirTran nominees will likely get electedt to the MEH board if it comes to that, and that will be just one more thing that pushes something to happen. Something.

So when I comes down to it, I think this all hinges on if MIdwest is able to swing a deal to take the company off the market which will keep it intact. I very much doubt they'd just sell to someone else...I don't think they are fending off AirTran with the hopes to be absorbed into Frontier, or Alaska, or Northwest for that matter. What is more likely is a deal where the company is taken private or sold in full or part to someone who was not buying them to just merge them in. I certainly don't know that Skywest is interested in being a part of a consortium that would take Midwest off the market, but that $25m clause suggests that it's not an absurd thought. And just FYI, SkyWest is nearly 5x the size of Midwest in terms of revenue and market cap (value). Even comparably small Air Wisconsin invested in the USAirways deal, a company far larger than they.

If Midwest has something in the works as an alternative to the AirTran buyout, then it is likely AirTran will eventually succeed. If not, it's getting hard to figure out how AirTran won't.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: NorthwestEWR
Posted 2007-05-18 20:07:02 and read 4660 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 52):
AirTran is nothing special in the MCI, MKE market. Midwest makes what it makes because people will pay a little more to fly with them.

Exactly ! People will go out of their way and pay more to fly with Midwest thanks to their outstanding service, reliability, customer service, very friendly staff and truly the " Best Care in the Air "

AirTran is not going to get those passengers so I fail to understand how they think they can make MKE into a large hub. It's not going to work without the premium pax that are either going UA, AA out of ORD or are connecting in MKE on YX. The YX pax will go elsewhere and the ORD pax aren't about to switch to FL.

Long live Midwest Airlines, truly the Best Care in the Air !

[Edited 2007-05-18 20:07:41]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 20:32:29 and read 4638 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 52):
and the only thing AirTran can compete with is price.

My point is proven. Another emotionally based, subjective statement based on opinion. Your molehill is someone else's mountain.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-18 20:40:32 and read 4626 times.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 53):
If Midwest has something in the works as an alternative to the AirTran buyout, then it is likely AirTran will eventually succeed. If not, it's getting hard to figure out how AirTran won't.


Yikes...talk about mis-wording something. It should read:

If Midwest has something in the works as an alternative to the AirTran buyout, then it is likely AirTran may not succeed. If they don't, it's getting hard to figure out how AirTran won't succeed.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-18 20:42:48 and read 4625 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 55):
Another emotionally based, subjective statement based on opinion.

Only if you make the assessment that what is on the table is nothing more than a cash exchange that will result in some grand pooba strategy for AirTran, which is the mistake AirTran is making. The issue here is product. Midwest survives at MKE/MCI because of that product, AirTran will not and as a result, the industry will lose that product for what? Leonard's ego?


If AirTran gets their way so be it, where do I buy a ring side seat, some hot dogs, some popcorn and a couple of beers? Name the price!

I don't want to miss one second of the greatest airline implosion since Eastern. Hell, I'll even cheer on Southwest.

[Edited 2007-05-18 21:03:59]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Milemaster
Posted 2007-05-18 21:11:43 and read 4594 times.

There is something to be said about appealing to the cheapest of the cheap. Some could argue that Southwest does this, but yet they appear to know who they are, where they are going, and how to do it profitably.

Airtran on the other hand has become unweildy by loading up on plane orders. Their business model isn't scaling successfully by any measure. Everyone on both sides of the fence sees this for what it is, a clear act of desperation.

If Airtran successfully pulls this off by overpaying for YX.. Well, I think we all know how this movie ends.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):
Just goes to show what kind of company that Airtran is, when its basically had to resort to pleading and begging in order to acquire another airline.

I think that statement sums it all up right there.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-18 22:26:31 and read 4560 times.

Quoting Milemaster (Reply 58):
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):
Just goes to show what kind of company that Airtran is, when its basically had to resort to pleading and begging in order to acquire another airline.

I think that statement sums it all up right there.

I don't. I've yet to see anything to indicate begging or pleading. In fact, I'd almost call it strong-arming YX. FL keeps upping the anty. Again, it's not for us to decide. It'll most likely be played out in the court room, if not the board room.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-18 22:54:15 and read 4540 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 43):
leather seat and a cookie. Oh boy!!

And elbow and leg room throughout, ability to get a pre-reserved seat,( no matter what price you pay), service, a great BOB program, NOT having to connect in ATL, more personalized service, an award winning frequent flier program, come this fall we will be able to say on all of our flights we offer 2x2 seating, a large route structure (thanks to the NW codeshare), and no sexual harrassment in the MKE station.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 40):
For the good or the bad, Joe Leonard almost always gets what he wants

key word..ALMOST.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DeltaDAWG
Posted 2007-05-21 14:01:36 and read 4335 times.

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 54):
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 52):
AirTran is nothing special in the MCI, MKE market. Midwest makes what it makes because people will pay a little more to fly with them.

Exactly ! People will go out of their way and pay more to fly with Midwest thanks to their outstanding service, reliability, customer service, very friendly staff and truly the " Best Care in the Air "

Yet, as a longterm Delta FF I have grown to loathe the idea of flying CRJ's. They are uncomfortable, hard on the back and in general a bad experience. Thus, when I fly from ATL-MDW I will avoid the CRJ's and make sure to get on the E-70's since they are a true a/c, comfortable and a great flying experience. Which leads me to my point. I am flying ATL-MDW on the DL E-70 on 6/4 and flying out of MKE-BWI on 6/6. I had a choice to fly YX or FL. I am FF of both YX & FL. I fly YX from ATL-CWA at least once per month. When booking my MKE-BWI route I saw the CRJ on YX and the 717 on FL. I chose the 717 because of comfort, not cookies. I would rather fly in comfort than to worry about a cookie.

Had YX flown their 717 I probably would have gone with them however, the point is that YX is expanding their service at the sacrifice to their "standard" service by using Skywest CRJ's and outsourced service. Is that not any different than other legacies? At least FL is sticking to a business model that utilizes in-house service and equipment. Say what you want about FL but I have had nothing but professional service and attention. Yes, I would not put the level of service of FL at the same level as DL, YX or AA but it is satisfactory and not the abhorent service that so many make it seem here on A.net.. So, in otherwords, what is so special about the expanded service if it is on someone else's a/c and more so on cramped CRJ's. At least FL is expanding using full size a/c and offering it a decent service level and decent price.

[Edited 2007-05-21 14:10:36]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Airtran737700
Posted 2007-05-21 14:57:30 and read 4291 times.

Looks like this merger is going to take a little longer than expected (what Airtran planned for), but hopefully Midwest will see that it is best for BOTH airlines to merge. The longer Midwest drags this out, the harder it is going to be to merge the work groups ( with all the hard feelings starting to come to light).

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-21 15:20:06 and read 4275 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 55):
My point is proven. Another emotionally based, subjective statement based on opinion. Your molehill is someone else's mountain.

Not really, I have been through plenty of mergers in other industries and you can and do lose a lot of customers in the process. If Airtran overpays for Midwest, which it looks like they will, then they will get gutted by competition at the routes they are on. That is the big problem for Airtran, they cannot charge a premium price for their flights like Midwest can because, honestly, Airtran is a low-end airline.

Quoting Airtran737700 (Reply 59):
Looks like this merger is going to take a little longer than expected (what Airtran planned for), but hopefully Midwest will see that it is best for BOTH airlines to merge. The longer Midwest drags this out, the harder it is going to be to merge the work groups ( with all the hard feelings starting to come to light).

This merger will hurt Airtran badly. This is like Bank of America buying out the local high end bank. Lots of those customers are going to leave because they expected more from their bank or airline than the low end people can deliver.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2007-05-21 15:37:27 and read 4251 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 60):
That is the big problem for Airtran, they cannot charge a premium price for their flights like Midwest can

I don't think any carrier can do this anymore. The last time I checked connecting flights, Midwest was as cheap or cheaper than the rest.

Midwest has no fare premiums that I've seen.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Floridaflyboy
Posted 2007-05-21 15:42:54 and read 4244 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
It doesn't matter what your synergies are if you take on excessive debt and a staff of ticked off employees. They will get slaughtered by access hungry airlines at MKE.

I normally don't agree with you, but what you said there is so true. It may look good on the surface, but below all the route synergies and fleet synergies, there are a lot of very serious problems here.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-21 15:55:04 and read 4236 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 61):
I don't think any carrier can do this anymore. The last time I checked connecting flights, Midwest was as cheap or cheaper than the rest.

Check some short notice business flights, ie the market Midwest caters to in MCI and MKE.

MCI-BOS on Midwest is $543, everyone else is in the 400's with a stop.

MCI-LGA on Midwest is $824, everyone else is in the 500's with a stop except CO.

Yes, if you book more than a month in advance everyone is competitive, as people doing that are usually on vacation fare shopping. The people who make Midwest work are the ones in Kansas City and MKE who need to fly to business destinations on short notice and get there quickly. I suppose Airtran could keep the direct flights but that would eat into a lot of the savings they would get from rationalizing the route structure.

So yes, some carriers can charge a premium to some customers that want certain things.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2007-05-21 16:43:22 and read 4177 times.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 10):
But it will cost AirTran a hell of alot more money out of their own pocket instread of using the money Midwest has.

Remember, kiddies, on a buyout, its not the buyers $$$,. It's the banks. airTran probably already has the banks ok otherwise, it would not be trying to cut this deal.
I like Midwest but I think their days are now numbered. I would guess by the end of January, if not sooner, this is a done deal for airTran.
safe  checkmark 

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2007-05-21 16:44:30 and read 4174 times.

We are paying $600-700 regularly from DCA-MCI, sometimes even $850..ANd that is with one weeks notice , but the discount seats are gone by then and our people want the nonstops and its all billable to the client..We also are quite often paying $800-900 from LGA-MCI, so those that think YX is giving away the shop are very mistaken. They are getting a premium and the trend in the future will be towards higher fares with oil the way it is!..

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N328KF
Posted 2007-05-21 16:57:01 and read 4156 times.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 1):
I suspect this just sets up the boardinng meeting showdown where AirTran's three nominees may get elected to the board. If so they will be the minority at least until next year, as one of several anti-takeover measures put into place was to stagger the board terms. Only 3 of 9 members up every year.



Quoting N917ME (Reply 2):

I think that this is FAR from over. Although this is a "victory" for AirTran, there is still many battles to be fought before this is over.

If Airtran wound up with enough shares to represent a supermajority, then I bet they could go to the court and state that the poison pill does not represent the wishes of the shareholders (e.g. Airtran.)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
You have an entire street of invesment strategists that are under the false impression that airline mergers are required and that the system has too much capacity.

That sure sounds like emotion talking. When every sign points to overcapacity, and with SkyBus and VX coming online soon, how can you insist otherwise and keep a straight face?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-21 17:11:04 and read 4138 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 66):
That sure sounds like emotion talking. When every sign points to overcapacity, and with SkyBus and VX coming online soon, how can you insist otherwise and keep a straight face?

I think its a problem but not for Midwest. It is much more of a problem for Airlines like Airtran. As people have repeatedly stated, Midwest is catering to and having success with a different market than Airtran and Skybus.

So yes there is too much capacity, but it is mostly in the LCC's that are starting to squeeze one another. Midwest is in a different market out of its two hubs.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Indy
Posted 2007-05-21 17:25:56 and read 4128 times.

There is no way this merger is good for YX and no way it is good for MKE. YX is a unique product. FL isn't. I've used both companies and each had positive and negative issues. The signature service on YX is as good as biz class on FL. Their BOB program is in my opinion the best I've had. The issue I have with YX is that I booked a trip where the flights I selected were signature service flights. They changed one of the flights to saver service and acted like they didn't care when I objected to the change. It was like it was just too bad for me. I used YX ONLY because of the signature service. Had it been saver service I would have just stayed at home and used NW out of IND instead of traveling out of town and using another airline.

FL is ok. To me it is about price. The in-flight service isn't exceptional. The interior is pretty generic. Unless you select a higher fare you can't select your seats in advance and unless you manage to get a non-stop flight you have to connect in ATL which I won't do. FL customer service has been friendly despite being unwilling to assign seats on a flight when traveling with a special needs child. So what does this merger mean to me? It means connections will be through ATL (no thanks) or backtracking through MKE (no thanks again).

It is unlikely I'll use the merged airline. Personally I'll just stick with NW. Maybe their in-flight service is nothing special. But they offer so much more than FL can ever dream of. If I have to backtrack for a connection I get to go to DTW. If I want to pay the fee I can get club access where free food, drinks and internet access is provided. I get a good frequent flier program, a number of nonstop flights and for the most part a single connection away from most places around the world. Oh I forgot to mention their wonderful elite program and free upgrades.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-21 17:29:11 and read 4123 times.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 56):
I don't. I've yet to see anything to indicate begging or pleading. In fact, I'd almost call it strong-arming YX. FL keeps upping the anty. Again, it's not for us to decide. It'll most likely be played out in the court room, if not the board room.

Strong-arming? In case history has been changed, so far everything has played out the way Midwest has said it would. It hasn't been acquired. The shareholders have stuck by their hometown airline. It has caused Airtran to up the ante more and more and extend the offer longer and longer. Does this really amount to strong-arming in your part of the world?

As for begging and pleading, Airtran said in the last round of spats that they would consider upping the offer more for the shareholders if YX would open the books. YX refused, and now Airtran is upping the offer even more in the vain hope that the shareholders will cave in and sell out. They've even gone so far as to have an Airtran subsidiary start acquiring stock and acting as a third party to encourage shareholders to sell. Its amost comical, the desperation and extent this company will go to.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 41):
So as to not get my wrist slapped and a little suspension for a few days, I will not comment on Otto's post

Not that it would help your argument.  Wink Your personal attack may have helped you sleep a little better, yet you could still say nothing to positively refute my post.

Quoting Milemaster (Reply 55):
Airtran on the other hand has become unweildy by loading up on plane orders. Their business model isn't scaling successfully by any measure. Everyone on both sides of the fence sees this for what it is, a clear act of desperation.

I think we all wondered where Airtran was going to put all these airplanes it was buying up like crazy. I think that thought is just now catching up to management and they need competition eliminated in order to ensure enough demand is available to fill up those planes.




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-21 18:05:03 and read 4094 times.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 61):

I don't think any carrier can do this anymore. The last time I checked connecting flights, Midwest was as cheap or cheaper than the rest.

Midwest has no fare premiums that I've seen.

Just doing spot-check-pricing in a market is not particularly accurate because it doesn’t tell you anything about actual fare paid…just what someone booking Airline A versus Airline B would pay to book a seat right now.

A more telling comparison stat may be the *average* fare paid in markets where both airlines flew nonstop. From the 3rd quarter of 2006 (the most recent stats) here are the actual average fares paid in the three markets where AirTran and Midwest both flew nonstop:

MKE-ATL
FL 108.93
YX 131.73

MKE-BWI
FL 99.68
YX 171.95

MKE-MCO
FL 104.59
YX 125.54

Now it’s not just a matter of customers selecting Midwest over AirTran when a Midwest nonstop is $150 and AirTran nonstop is $100, although there may be some of that. It is also that the proportion of higher-fare travelers that Midwest serves is greater than AirTran. Let’s say (in a simplified example) that a flight leaving late today MKE-ATL is $294 both on AirTran and on Midwest. And let’s say up to this point, both AirTran and Midwest flights had priced all their seats at $100 with 1 day advance purchase. . If two people had to book last-minute business trips MKE-ATL leaving tonight and paid $294, if they both chose Midwest, the Midwest average fare would be higher. Not once in the course of pricing history for those two flights did Midwest charge a cent more than AirTran, but their average fare was higher.

That is of course rather simplistic, but it illustrates an underlying difference between the two carriers. AirTran sells more inventory, on average, at lower fares. If they didn’t, apparently they would fill a lot less seats. (And if they would still fill a lot of seats, they their yield management team should be reassigned.)

The other difference which is more difficult to see in these sorts of numbers is the proportion of local traffic versus all traffic carried in the market. With few exceptions, you make a lot more money carrying someone local on MKE-ATL than you do MSP-MKE-ATL or MKE-ATL-JAX. Midwest carriers a higher proportion of local traffic than most, and AirTran is at the other end of the spectrum, carrying a higher proportion of connecting traffic.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-21 19:07:03 and read 4036 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 63):

Check some short notice business flights, ie the market Midwest caters to in MCI and MKE.

MCI-BOS on Midwest is $543, everyone else is in the 400's with a stop.

MCI-LGA on Midwest is $824, everyone else is in the 500's with a stop except CO.



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 70):
Just doing spot-check-pricing in a market is not particularly accurate because it doesn’t tell you anything about actual fare paid…just what someone booking Airline A versus Airline B would pay to book a seat right now.

Yes, exactly. What JKU's numbers don't tell us is what the loads are for the flights he priced, as that also plays a role in the fares you get. If there are only a few seats left on the YX flight, compared to several or more on the other airlne flights, that will play a role in the price you get on the screen.

Another better comparison would be what certain fares are on a route, i.e. full Y9 fare, etc.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2007-05-21 20:08:02 and read 3985 times.

Quoting JBo (Reply 71):
Yes, exactly. What JKU's numbers don't tell us is what the loads are for the flights he priced, as that also plays a role in the fares you get. If there are only a few seats left on the YX flight, compared to several or more on the other airlne flights, that will play a role in the price you get on the screen.

I agree it shows nothing about profitability it just shows what those particular business type flights command on that given day. If you look at the following numbers in the next post they clearly show that see that more important quote from that post below.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 70):
That is of course rather simplistic, but it illustrates an underlying difference between the two carriers. AirTran sells more inventory, on average, at lower fares. If they didn’t, apparently they would fill a lot less seats. (And if they would still fill a lot of seats, they their yield management team should be reassigned.)

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: NorthwestEWR
Posted 2007-05-21 20:11:31 and read 3983 times.

When I had the choice of YX or CO for my trip next week I had to choose between service and price.
CO was around $340 while YX was $420 for EWR-SAT.

I choose YX and paid a $90 premium. You tell me if FL will get that kind of premium but I know they certainly won't be getting mine. I'll just go back to NW.

The flights were pretty full on YX and it took some looking to find a reasonable fare as most of the others were over $500. I booked the ticket a little over a month in advance for the trip next week and a quick look at the seat maps on my flights the EWR-MKE-EWR flights are about 70% full, MKE-MCI flight is packed to the gills, MCI-SAT-MCI is about 95% full with only a few seats left and MCI-MKE is about 70% full.

The question is can FL demand that kind of premium ? As many have said here, no. That presents a serious problem with their plans for YX. They won't get what they think they will. I have my fingers crossed that FL doesn't destroy what is the best airline in the US.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Mke717spotter
Posted 2007-05-21 23:18:00 and read 3891 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 66):
If Airtran wound up with enough shares to represent a supermajority, then I bet they could go to the court and state that the poison pill does not represent the wishes of the shareholders (e.g. Airtran.)

That's sort of why they have the poison pill, so it isn't just about the shareholders. They have the poison pill so the BOD can also determine how this deal would affect employees, the community, etc...

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Sideflare75
Posted 2007-05-22 04:16:50 and read 3773 times.

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 58):
So, in otherwords, what is so special about the expanded service if it is on someone else's a/c and more so on cramped CRJ's. At least FL is expanding using full size a/c and offering it a decent service level and decent price.

But you forget that the 717's freed up by the Skywest flying are being used to expand with either new service or additional service in existing markets. Why fly half empty 717's to places like EWR and PHL when you can send them to SEA from MCI full of people. I know everyone hates the CRJ's but from a business standpoint it makes perfect sense.

The CRJ's are also freeing up 328 jets to take the place of the 1900's. That's a good thing isn't it?

Now if Skyway can just fix this crew shortage.......

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Jetdeltamsy
Posted 2007-05-22 05:37:15 and read 3725 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 9):
have flown Airtran for at least 5 trips in the past couple of years and have had something go wrong in or out everytime. I am usually amazed if I hit my connection. My company no longer even tries to book with Airtran it got so bad.

Sorry for your luck.

What I know is that AirTran has kicked Delta's butt in Atlanta on service and price for the last 3 years. We lost many thousands of customers because of AirTran's consistent high quality service and reasonable fares.

AirTran has become the airline of choice for many formerly loyal Delta customers.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-22 16:58:17 and read 3615 times.

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 75):
Now if Skyway can just fix this crew shortage.......

Apparently there are enough captains comes online soon to fix this problem but I can almost say that by the end of summer we'll be right back to crew shortages. But with the number of captains that are to leave in the next few weeks, I think we'll just be back to canceling MSN, ATW and GRB jet flights.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Deltadude8
Posted 2007-05-22 17:16:28 and read 3601 times.

I'd fly SWA before ScareTran....and that's saying alot since I've never flown SWA before...

and among my family---the sentiments are the same...so there's 7 customers lost by the YX-FL merger...and from what I understand...many people that are YX loyal feel the same way...

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-22 17:22:43 and read 3594 times.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 76):
What I know is that AirTran has kicked Delta's butt in Atlanta on service and price for the last 3 years. We lost many thousands of customers because of AirTran's consistent high quality service and reasonable fares.

AirTran has become the airline of choice for many formerly loyal Delta customers.

A few questions:

1. What the heck does a DL/FL comparison have to do with a FL/YX thread?

2. Where do you get your belief that FL has "kicked" DL's butt in both service and price for the last 3 years? Does Delta not match Airtran's fares? Yes. Does DL beat FL in service on almost every level rated by anything from JD Powers, most magazines, and even the DOT reports. Yes. Does Airtran provide 'loyal' customers with such amenities as Crown Room usage, priority bag handling, complimentary upgrades, etc? No. And if DL has lost many thousands of customers to Airtran(fat chance), then why is Delta STILL the largest airline in ATL and buying up MORE planes, while FL has had to resort to begging and pleading to take over another airline AND it's passenger base in another city? Get real and get a clue. You've kept your head in the clouds for too long.

3. And third, the words 'Airtran' and 'high quality service' should not be used in the same sentence together, and certainly not in conjunction with 'consistent.'



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 73g
Posted 2007-05-22 18:03:40 and read 3553 times.

...and even the DOT reports. Yes.

No. Taking a look at the BTS/DOT data for March, AirTran actually did a pretty good job across the board. In all but one category as a matter of fact, it beat Delta.

Mishandled Baggage Reports Filed By Passengers January 2007 to March 2007

3. AirTran 3.84 reports per 1,000 passengers
12. Delta 7.88 reports per 1,000 passengers

As an aside, ASA ranked 16th and Comair ranked 19th.

Percentage of Flight Cancellations

5. AirTran 1.3 percent of flight operations cancelled
6. Delta 2.0 percent of flight operations cancelled

Passengers Denied Boarding January 2007 to March 2007
(Involuntary DB's per 10,000 passengers)

3. AirTran .21
17. Delta 3.47

Rounding out the bottom three nicely, Comair, Delta, and ASA.

Consumer Complaints January 2007 to March 2007
(Complaints per 100,000 enplanements)

5. AirTran .65
17. Delta 1.60

The one category Delta beat AirTran was On-Time Performance based on Arrivals where Delta had 79.7% on-time and AirTran had 78.4% on-time.

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/2007/may/200705atcr.pdf

So, at the very least...that part of your statement is erroneous. (Shocking)

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-22 18:52:20 and read 3528 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 77):
Apparently there are enough captains comes online soon to fix this problem but I can almost say that by the end of summer we'll be right back to crew shortages. But with the number of captains that are to leave in the next few weeks, I think we'll just be back to canceling MSN, ATW and GRB jet flights.

And hopefully we hear something soon on when Great Lakes plans on starting up out here, and what kind of agreement, if any, they'll have with YX. If ZK takes over most all the Skyway Beech routes, those Beech crews would be more than enough to resolve the 328 crew issues for at least a little while.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-22 20:23:55 and read 3477 times.

Quoting JBo (Reply 81):
And hopefully we hear something soon on when Great Lakes plans on starting up out here, and what kind of agreement, if any, they'll have with YX. If ZK takes over most all the Skyway Beech routes, those Beech crews would be more than enough to resolve the 328 crew issues for at least a little while.

Very true with regards to the crew issue. As for an agreement, Timmy has already pledged a full working agreement with Great Lakes whether it will be like a code-share or like a contract deal who knows. But I'm sure I'll be parking at D52 and that I'll be working them.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-22 20:30:21 and read 3469 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 66):
That sure sounds like emotion talking. When every sign points to overcapacity, and with SkyBus and VX coming online soon, how can you insist otherwise and keep a straight face?

If overcapacity was a problem, SkyBus and VX wouldn't have a business case.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DeltaDAWG
Posted 2007-05-22 20:42:19 and read 3456 times.

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 75):
But you forget that the 717's freed up by the Skywest flying are being used to expand with either new service or additional service in existing markets. Why fly half empty 717's to places like EWR and PHL when you can send them to SEA from MCI full of people.

No, I didn't forget. That reasoning is the same as robbing Peter to pay Paul. I like YX and as stated fly them at least once per month on ATL-CWA. However, if dedicated YX customers that are used to the Best Care in the Air experience and leather 2x2 seating suddenly have to fly 2 - 2.5 hrs on a CRJ - they are going to be in for rude awakening when it comes to the SkyWest CRJ experience. Thus, my reasoning for choosing FL over YX on my upcoming MKE-BWI. There is a big difference in flying 30-45 minutes on a FRJ or B1900 as opposed to 2-2.5 hours on a MKE-BWI. I just don't think that the expansion of CRJ's fits in with the YX philosophy and "experience", that's all. Don't tout the YX experience and then put SkyWest equipment on routes that don't have the YX "experience" and especially don't expect people to pay for that experience when they are not getting it.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2007-05-22 21:14:58 and read 3425 times.

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 84):
However, if dedicated YX customers that are used to the Best Care in the Air experience and leather 2x2 seating suddenly have to fly 2 - 2.5 hrs on a CRJ - they are going to be in for rude awakening when it comes to the SkyWest CRJ experience

Absolutely right.

If you are lucky enough to get on one of those 2x2 717s that's great, but there are 10 or so md80s that are nice, but nothing special. As far as the crj, those 200s are terrible. There is absolutely nothing special about that jet at all. YX will eventually have a big portion of their flying done with either the md80 or those skywest crjs once they are all in service.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-22 21:31:28 and read 3411 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 82):
Very true with regards to the crew issue. As for an agreement, Timmy has already pledged a full working agreement with Great Lakes whether it will be like a code-share or like a contract deal who knows. But I'm sure I'll be parking at D52 and that I'll be working them.

It would make sense to me to make it a full contract deal. That way, ZK could aquire 4 of the remaining Skyway 1900s, already painted in YX livery, rather than transfer 4 of their own out of DEN or elsewhere. (but that depends in part on what ZK wants to do in that regard, I suppose).

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 84):
Thus, my reasoning for choosing FL over YX on my upcoming MKE-BWI. There is a big difference in flying 30-45 minutes on a FRJ or B1900 as opposed to 2-2.5 hours on a MKE-BWI. I just don't think that the expansion of CRJ's fits in with the YX philosophy and "experience", that's all.

MKE-BWI was previously operated on a 328Jet before being upgraded t a CRJ. By your logic, the 328s and 1900s don't fit in with the YX philosophy and "experience," either ... except that without a successful regional feed, the YX "experience" wouldn't have enough support to even exist.

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 84):
Don't tout the YX experience and then put SkyWest equipment on routes that don't have the YX "experience" and especially don't expect people to pay for that experience when they are not getting it.

Again, does your same logic apply to 328s and 1900s? I'm fairly certain that the Skyway routes and the SkyWest routes all share something in common: they are part of the company's REGIONAL operation. Read: the routes that do not have the capacity nor the economics to support mainline aircraft on the route. That's why they're operated as Midwest Connect.

I'm fairly certain that the traveling public is intelligent enough to know that the experience on a CRJ, FRJ, or 1900 is far from the same of that on a 717 or MD-80. It's not just about the seats, "Dawg," even the regional flights still offer more than others in terms of service and amenities. The CRJ flights offer limited BOB food and cookies, more than many other CRJ operators to my knowledge. The FRJs offer snacks and cookies, which, is perhaps more on the level with the rest. And 1900s, well, are 1900s.

CRJs are regional service. 717s are mainline service. Of course there is going to be a difference, and people know that. It's not like YX has never had regional service before.

I think I'd hate to see what A.net would have been like had it existed in 1989 when Midwest Express decided to contract with Mesa to fly 1900Cs as Skyway.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 85):
If you are lucky enough to get on one of those 2x2 717s that's great, but there are 10 or so md80s that are nice, but nothing special. As far as the crj, those 200s are terrible. There is absolutely nothing special about that jet at all. YX will eventually have a big portion of their flying done with either the md80 or those skywest crjs once they are all in service.

25 717s
Up to 20 CRJs
14 MD-80s (with the two new ones coming on, and supposedly some sort of two-class arrangement coming this year).
12 328Jets
At least 4 1900s

Granted, that is all subject to change as YX still intends on ordering a replacement for the MD-80s, which would likely be a number greater than 14. When that will happen, no one knows. They kind of have more important things to worry about right now.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-22 23:18:23 and read 3358 times.

Quoting 73g (Reply 80):
No. Taking a look at the BTS/DOT data for March, AirTran actually did a pretty good job across the board. In all but one category as a matter of fact, it beat Delta.

Try reading the whole post again. In what polls has FL been rated higher than DL? In what polls has FL even rated? Not too many, if any. And instead of comparing one month, try comparing it against more. It will paint a much different picture.

Now, rather than continuing off-topic, I will return back to the one at hand. Isn't it interesting to note how Airtran has kept very mum about the 2x2 leather seating and cookies, although promising to not let the YX Signature diminish? Being that FL has no ovens in their aircraft and WILL install 3x2 seating in all a/c, I guess their planning to keep it alive in other ways, yet those ways seem to remain a mystery. I've always heard that the best way to lie to people is to mention the lie as little as possible so that they forget it.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: LASOctoberB6
Posted 2007-05-23 00:00:43 and read 3332 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 7):
why did NW fail in it's raid?

maybe NW said it really wasnt worth it....and that theyll just be able to swallow YX whole if they tried somethin' stupid....just my thought...

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Gr8SlvrFlt
Posted 2007-05-23 00:17:17 and read 3324 times.

AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2007-05-23 00:34:38 and read 3304 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......

Source? If this is all true, why isn't FL being more forthright publicly about it?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-23 02:15:09 and read 3238 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......

Except for the seat, which is what people are paying for to begin with.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-23 02:49:40 and read 3208 times.

The claim that essentially "What makes Midwest succeed will crumble when customers find themselves without the premium cabin service they have expected" we're hearing about the CRJ is nothing new. The same bemoaning was heard when:


--In 1989 when the first Beech 1900's came online.

Over the years several markets including ATW, CLE, CMH, OMA, DSM, MSN and YYZ have had a mix of premium-service DC9/D9S and the modest BE1. Surely without Midwest's premium product, this venture would fail. In fact, Midwest did not suffer serious damange.


--In 2000 when the FRJ came onboard.

Okay, maybe it was okay that the BE1's came to add smaller markets, but putting the FRJ into critical competitive Milwaukee markets replacing DC9s to places like Washington DC, Hartford, Clevleland, Toronto, Newark, Philadelphia and others was sure to open Midwest to conquest by the competition. In fact, Midwest did not suffer serious damange.


--In 2002 when scaled-back dining was introduced

No more free wine? A hot pocket and fruit cup passing for a meal? Midwest is known for great onboard meals, and now Midwest is just transportation like anyone else, the naysayers said. In fact, Midwest did not suffer serious damage.


--In 2003, when the most sacreligious act of all came about...Midwest put regular coach seating into several high-volume leisure markets.

Certainly this was the end of Midwest's draw for customers, particularly in the markets where they offered traditional 2x3 seating, just like the competition. Not only did Midwest not suffer serious damange, but their performance and market share grew in these markets, and Midwest's fare premium actually *increased* in many cases.


--In 2005, when Midwest started charging for onboard food

PAY for food on a plane? No china, crystal, lobster, complementary wine, or linens like the old days, and now they want customers to PAY for a meal? Expect a revolt! In fact, the buy-onboard product that Midwest pioneered (I believe they were the first to do it systemwide, though a few airlines did tests on selected flights ahead of them) has been widely accepted, successful, and a net-profit-generator for Midwest.


Now it's 2007 and Midwest is again ruining the product by contracting with an airline to code-share with CRJ's. Doom and gloom. Yes, the CRJ's are a *definite* step down in comfort from the signature-service 717's. No other way around it. And some people who may have sought out Midwest will instead fly the competition in these markets. To deny this is not realistic. But this is simply not the catestrophic nail-in-the-coffin event that some want to portray it as. And that includes those whose interest in Midwest has come over the past 6 months or so with the AirTran proposal.

The draw of Midwest is more than just the 2x2 seating, and it's not the cookies, either. Not that those have zero importance, but they are not the sum of it. It's also the wide range of nonstop flights. It's the role the airline plays in the community (even in KC where it is not based). It's the high-touch customer service. It's the well-rated frequent flyer program with a broad array of partners and rewards. It's the way they hold for connections more than most airlines do to avoid stranding people. It's the uncongested hub airports. It's the aggressive, top-rated corporate sales team (#1 over AA, WN, UA, DL, B6, etc in several categories). It's all these things and more that keep people coming to Midwest and gaining them high yields in many of their markets.

The cold, hard fact is that the handful of markets where Midwest is replacing some or all 717's with CRJ's are markets where Midwest was losing money with th 717. The demand, both in terms of passenger demand and available revenue, are not there to justify the higher cost of the premium-seating 717. The alternative is to cut back 717 flying to fewer or zero frequencies. If, for example, Midwest cut MKE-MSP to 2x/day, they would find their business traffic dry up and they probably wouldn't make money on the remaining 2x/day 717s either. It's kind of funny...some of the same people who claim the 2x2 business model can't be successful in 2007 are also quick to bemoan 717 markets being downgraded to CRJ. (That's certainly not everybody, but there are some here and in other discussions.)

At this point where nine of the fifteen CRJ's have been scheduled, exactly seven daily round-trips in the Midwest system have seem the 717 downgraded the CRJ. Not seven cities or seven routes, but seven total round trips out of the whole Midwest mainline system. And two of those are short-hop round-trips to MSP. Some of the additional CRJ's still to come may replace a few more 717 trips, but that's the exception. Most of the CRJ flying is to offer more capacity in heavy-demand FRJ markets or to add service in new markets, most of which had no nonstop service six months ago.

The CRJ fills a big gap in the Midwest fleet. More than a few of the markets Midwest serves with FRJ's are turning away passengers becuase they are filling up. More than a few markets where the 717 loses money are still high-demand enough justify service.

Undoubtedly there are people who seek out Midwest for the 2x2 717 who may buy elsewhere if their trip is instead on the CRJ, or for that matter the 2x3 Saver Service. However in markets where the 717 is not making money, the flow of 2x2-seeking passengers is simply not enough to justify it.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Knope2001
Posted 2007-05-23 03:19:41 and read 3172 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......

Plenty of dubious promises have been made by suitors looking to get into the pants of their desired. "looking at" all kinds of onboard enhancements is nice, but that promise and 75 cents will buy you a newspaper.

Nothing has stopped AirTran from making their onboard product "closer to Midwest's Signature Service" all along up to this point. and the promises of an anonymous person on a chat board convince me exactly zero percent.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-23 04:30:27 and read 3112 times.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 93):
Nothing has stopped AirTran from making their onboard product "closer to Midwest's Signature Service" all along up to this point. and the promises of an anonymous person on a chat board convince me exactly zero percent.

Exactly!

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):
Source? If this is all true, why isn't FL being more forthright publicly about it?

Just the answer that I was coming to. I have seen NOTHING from Airtran saying, "We will become Midwest and provide everyone what Midwest offers." That right there would save them a lot of trouble, if they could convince everyone. But they have said nothing, because there is no intent to do any of that. You say that they will do this, and will do that, and are looking into that. Well, unless you can provide us with some good, hard evidence of that, why should I believe you? Airtran's management isn't that stupid. If their intent WAS to do all of this stuff, believe me, they would have said it by now. They may be willing to do it, but they will exhaust ALL other measures in order to not have to pony up the dough. In fact, it was mentioned on another YX/FL thread that Airtran was checking with possible vendors for costs on providing pre-baked cookies. Sorry, its not the same.

And as for much of your other examples, they are impossible to believe in themselves. Dig-E players? Airtran is installing XM radio on planes and has repeatedly stated thats all that will be needed by their customers. If they wanted more IFE, they would have thrown that in with the radio.

Buy on board meals? The bulk of Airtran's flights(about 80%) are short haul segments of less than 2 hours. Like someone is going to buy a meal on a 2 hour flight.

And seats. Even you mention NOTHING of Airtran planning to go to 2x2 First Class seating. Would be kind of hard to sell those Business Class seats you got when you have the same thing in the back, eh? You may say, "Well, some things have to be cut." But one of Midwest's big selling points are those seats. But Airtran won't dare think about losing the revenue of a lost seat. You say that Airtran and Midwest are heading towards a similar product, one that is already available on Midwest. Sorry, they couldn't be further apart. And if they were heading that way, Airtran could easily grow itself, kick Midwest's butt in service, and eventually run the airline out of business, as compared to trying to pull the sheets over the heads of the shareholders and overpaying.

Like I said, pony up the proof, or with the info you provided, I can dry it out and fertlize my lawn.




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-23 04:39:42 and read 3106 times.

Having just gotten home from work (9 PM), and having to go in early tomorrow I don't have time to find the references to AirTrans plans for how they would change the Midwest Service.

Item 1: They have definately said that they will remove the 2 x 2 seating and install higher density seating.

Item 2: They have backed off from a promise of baking cookies on board, and have talked of perhaps supplying a pre-baked bagged cookie, although that later statement was not that definitive.

The only place AirTran could make any promises would be in the terms issued to gather up stock: Had they mentioned in their "tender offer" that they would maintain the on plane baked cookies then it would be binding. Otherwise. it's just talk.

Concerning Wisconsin Law and the Midwest Articles of Incorporation: Just offering a good value for the stockholders is not by itself going to cut the legal mustard. The offer also must explain how it would affect (in a generally positive manner) the employees, the passengers, the businesses Midwest deals with, and the communities they service.

Midwest Board of Directors has to consider and in general protect the "Stakeholders" - of which the shareholders are only a part.

Should the AirTran slate of directors get elected then I suspect that they may find an interesting education about their responsibilities under Wisconsin Law. It's a bit different here than in most states. After being educated and reviewing the books and plans - who says any or all of them will support AirTran.

I am far from convinced that a shareholder suit to force a merger that would only benefit the shareholders - and otherwise destroy the company - would have much of a chance in Wisconsin Courts.

There is a very specific reason that Midwest chose to incorporate in Wisconsin (and not elsewhere) - and it is not just because their office is in Wisconsin (most sizable Wisconsin based companies are incorporated in Delaware or New York) .

Midwest set out to protect itself from hostile takeover and structured themselves well for protection. It will likely take years to overcome that protection - if it is ever overcome.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Mariner
Posted 2007-05-23 05:08:11 and read 3075 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):
Source? If this is all true, why isn't FL being more forthright publicly about it?

Yes, I'd be interested in seeing that. I'm not exactly clear why Airtran would do it.

They can't really have one part of their airline with 2 x 2 seating - for example - and the other part not. Well, maybe they can, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Surely the point of Airtran buying Midwest - whether you agree with that or not - is to make Airtran bigger?

mariner

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 73G
Posted 2007-05-23 08:07:28 and read 3021 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 87):
And instead of comparing one month

Actually, the majority of my statistics were over the first THREE months of 2007.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 87):
Try reading the whole post again

I read the whole post...including the part where you claim that DL outranks FL in the DOT reports.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 87):
And instead of comparing one month, try comparing it against more. It will paint a much different picture.

Not really. For the entire year 2006, FL outranked DL in the same three categories I mentioned in my first post. Again, on-time performance went to DL, but that was it.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-24 18:53:39 and read 2855 times.

I was at savethecookie.com, the pro YX site they made, and found this comment under the "What others think" section.

Last time I flew Midwest, there weren't any cookies! You guys only have those on your "Signature Service" flights these days, right??? Do your shareholders a favor and just merge already!
- What Cookie?

I thought they would have sensored the heck out of the comments people send in. Big grin  Big grin  Cool  Silly  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-24 18:57:58 and read 2851 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 98):
I thought they would have sensored the heck out of the comments people send in.

That IS amusing, but as I read it, sounds a bit tongue in cheek.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-24 19:06:24 and read 2847 times.

Quoting JBo (Reply 99):
That IS amusing, but as I read it, sounds a bit tongue in cheek.

Wasn't me who got that posting on there....it was just too funny to not post in here.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: AirTran717
Posted 2007-05-24 19:29:23 and read 2828 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 98):
Last time I flew Midwest, there weren't any cookies! You guys only have those on your "Signature Service" flights these days, right??? Do your shareholders a favor and just merge already!
- What Cookie?

YX's superior product? Hrmph. LOL Yeah, it sounds like they are just soooo much better than FL.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2007-05-24 20:11:21 and read 2799 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 98):
Last time I flew Midwest, there weren't any cookies! You guys only have those on your "Signature Service" flights

I can vouch for cookies between MCI and MKE...every time I took the route.
safe

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2007-05-24 20:25:49 and read 2789 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 91):
Except for the seat, which is what people are paying for to begin with.

Really? I dont pay for a cushier seat. Especially on flights of 2 hours or less duration, which is most of the network FL operates. Midwest setas are nice, but are the making a good profit?

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......

Thats interesting news. How do you know this, and when do they plan to begin this service?

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2007-05-24 23:48:34 and read 2713 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 103):
Thats interesting news. How do you know this, and when do they plan to begin this service?

He doesn't, which is why he has kept mum about it and not proven us all wrong. Just another Airtran cheerleader doing what Airtran does best, make things up as they go along. I'm surprised his post wasn't pulled for being factually wrong, since its:

A: Unproven.

B: Unprovable.

C: Already shot down by the majority of the a.net posters on here when they have repeatedly asked for proof to be provided.


Airtran never said any of the stuff he mentioned, they ignore it and highly hope that no one asks about it. After all, the best proof that CAN be provided was that Airtran was talking to a vendor in regards to having pre-packaged cookies to give out. Sorry, its not the same as baked-on-board. Its THAT extra length that YX goes to that makes them "the best care in the air."



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-25 02:11:15 and read 2665 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed), IS looking at buy on board meals, and IS looking at enhanced entertainment options on longer flights (Dig-E-players). AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product, one that is closer to Midwest's Signature Service than most realize. Stay tuned......



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 103):
Thats interesting news. How do you know this, and when do they plan to begin this service?

In defense of Gr8SlvrFlt.... I do recall reading an interview a while back from AirTran executives early in the process that did mention that they (AirTran) were looking at the things mentioned in Gr8SlvrFlt's quote. The exact quote and interview is probably in a Milwaukee Journal article that is too far back to find for free (Searches for articles older than 14 days cost $$).

However; my memory is that AirTran executives has since retracted or contradicted almost all the individual parts of those early statements for most of the existing Midwest routes.


Again, if I was willing to spend $$ to do the searches I could probably find all the references.


As for more current information (that I can find "free"):

May 17 Milwaukee Journal

"AirTran Chairman Joseph Leonard wants to buy Midwest Air, corporate parent of Midwest Airlines and Midwest Connect, and greatly expand flights out of Milwaukee. AirTran says it can do that by dropping most of Midwest Airlines' wide, two-across seats and replacing them with narrower two-by-three seating. AirTran says it will fit more passengers in those planes, and increase flights, by cutting fares - a move aimed at Chicago-area travelers as well as those in southeastern Wisconsin."

The full article is at: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=607447


Also, Airtran knows that this will take a long time - and that this is an issue of where the BOD sees their responsibilities (just the shareholders - or more groups than the shareholders).

Here is a Link to a recent article on that subject:

May 24 Milwaukee Journal: "AirTran expects lengthy process"

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=610025

Personally, I hope Midwest stays Midwest; or if they have to merge - that they become a "Premium Service" branch of Northwest.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-25 02:16:29 and read 2661 times.

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 84):
However, if dedicated YX customers that are used to the Best Care in the Air experience and leather 2x2 seating suddenly have to fly 2 - 2.5 hrs on a CRJ -

Most routes are kept under two hours. PHL-MKE pushes the two hour time frame. However, as many times that we have all said the CRJ will be the end of Midwest, almost two months into it and the bookings for the CRJ are still strong. The bookings in my city are strong and many times the flights are sold out/oversold. We may think that all passengers react the same way us aviation buffs do, however to the average passenger, it really doesn't matter, just give me the cheapest non stop flight..
Interestingly enough, AirTran has it in their plans, if the merger is a go, to keep these CRJ/FRJ routes, so they must agree with YX business plan of having the CRJ.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran IS planning baked on board cookies (yes, the planes will have ovens installed),

I believe that they they have backed off of the plan to "bake" them on board. Now the word if "pre-packaged" cookies aka the kind you get in the gas stations (I think the brand in "grandmas")
-Very costly to reconfigure the galleys to add ovens

Now, something that AirTran has not elaborated on at all. What happens to the field employees? Early on, they swore that they would keep all the markets and fluff about job growth and opportunities, however that talk has ended and no one from AirTran can seem to answer what about the field employees. Sure they say that they will bring jobs, etc, but that has only been when discussing MKE and WI jobs. Personally, I see all the overlapping cities eliminating the YX employees or filling vacancies in the FL staff with some YX staff. Cities that are close in proximity (CLE/CAK) will only operate from the FL established city, YX employees given the opportunity to transfer, yeah if you want to add an additional 40+ miles to work, or be eliminated. Yes, as a Midwest employee, I am concerned about my future. I enjoy and am proud to work for YX. I don't really see many positives in the with a takeover as both companies offer a different product and cater to different clients. I do not understand where FL thinks that MKE is a goldmine and will be able to sustain the growth that they are anticipating. If that were the case and MKE was set for an explosion for growth, wouldn't you think that YX would have jumped all over it to defend their turf? The plan that FL put out a few months ago had some very unrealistic numbers AND had CRJ and FRJ aircraft included, which FL has stated countless times, do NOT fit with their pricing. FL tries CRJ's and FAILED.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-25 02:55:45 and read 2641 times.

What AirTran has Said (in part) is in this article:


May 19: Milwaukee Journal: AirTran sends out proxy materials

"We believe that current management is entrenched and currently has no intention of recommending a combination with AirTran - despite the clear benefits that a merger will provide to Midwest's shareholders, employees, customers, and the communities it serves," Leonard wrote.

Here is the link to the article: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=607814

I have a hard time seeing what the clear benefits a merger will provide to the employees, customers, and communities when AirTran's plan is to abandon the core customer base of Midwest Airlines.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-25 03:04:45 and read 2633 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 107):
I have a hard time seeing what the clear benefits a merger will provide to the employees, customers, and communities when AirTran's plan is to abandon the core customer base of Midwest Airlines.

So, If FL is sucessful in getting their three nominees elected, it will be their responsibility to look at what is best for the STAKEHOLDERS of Midwest as well. And so far, AirTran has not done a great job at showing what clear benefits a merger will provide to the STAKEHOLDERS of Midwest, when the abandon the core customer base of YX.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: FlyXJT
Posted 2007-05-25 03:13:22 and read 2628 times.

I would be curious to see a comparison of the controllable completion factor between FL and YX/AL/OO lately....I have a feeling it would come out in FL’s favor

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Travatl
Posted 2007-05-25 03:57:06 and read 2603 times.

917ME -

Are your ground folks unionized? Ours are not - so I would assume there would be no problem with integrating the two in shared field stations. Obvioiusly there would no reduction in flights - and until the companies are fully integrated, all employees will be needed... if it appears a "slimming" down of a station is necessary, it will be apparent (and done so through attrition) long before the integration. In fact, the FL employees in MKE and MCI would probably see the most dramatic change in their senority.

Further.... I wouldn't be so quick to assume that we would close all similar cities... FNT/DTW have worked well for us. CAK/CLE may do the same. In fact, many cities flown to by ValuJet were tossed in favor of AirTran cities - but that was a long, long time ago, and probably not a good precedent here.

As for the CRJs - yeah, I think they'll get tossed sooner than later. I think, though, the FRJ/BE1 operation may have some viability if it remains inhouse (i.e. Skyway becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of AirTran Holdings). Plus - many of those markets are obviously stations that will never see a 717/73G... and provide essential feed for MKE.

Finally - I too, am proud to work for my airline. I've been with it through an enormous roller coaster ride, (and all the bashing on this website during this tumultous merger/speculation). If it happens, it happens... nothing you nor I can do about it. Understand there are professionals on both sides of this fence who support it, or don't, for various reasons.....few of which will be considered by our respective managment teams.

And yes, I've also seen folks out measuring our galleys for ovens, and speculating about Dig-E players. That's the thing about this industry - nothing ever stays the same.... no airline is perfect (depsite Ottopylits rants  Wink ). The most successful carriers are like the most successful airline employees - friendly, flexible, and willing to consider change.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-25 04:39:01 and read 2581 times.

Quoting N917ME (Reply 108):
So, If FL is sucessful in getting their three nominees elected, it will be their responsibility to look at what is best for the STAKEHOLDERS of Midwest as well. And so far, AirTran has not done a great job at showing what clear benefits a merger will provide to the STAKEHOLDERS of Midwest, when the abandon the core customer base of YX.

I disagree. AirTran has shown how it would be a good value for the Shareholders. The current customers of Midwest Airline are part of the Stakeholders under Wisconsin law.

You are correct, as I have previously pointed out, that the new directors (assuming they are elected) will have to consider these customers as well as the shareholders (and all the other groups considered in the Stakeholder definition). I have also pointed out - that when they understand that (if they don't currently) - and when they see how Midwest is actually operating and their future plans... that they may not be in favor of the AirTran merger at all.

I do stand by my statement that I feel to see how the AirTran offer benefits the current core customers of Midwest, as the plan is to abandon them and find other people who only want a cheap airline ticket. I am also not so sure all the routes are viable under the cheap airline ticket scenario either. If you can't fill the planes then the routes will be closed. That translates into loss of service to those cities (another Stakeholder group) and most probably loss of employment of people (another stakeholder group).

If someone could have operated a low cost air service between the cities that Midwest does - I think they would done that already. Also, nothing is stopping companies from doing that now - and you don't need to takeover Midwest to do that.

Quite honestly, I don't even see the value to AirTran in this merger. They are offering a lot of money for assets that may have little value. So you get planes and routes. Not so valuable if you loose the core customer base on those routes.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-25 06:30:05 and read 2538 times.

Quoting Travatl (Reply 110):
Are your ground folks unionized?

That is a big fat NOPE. Why do you think we get the very short end of things.

Quoting Travatl (Reply 110):
if it appears a "slimming" down of a station is necessary, it will be apparent (and done so through attrition) long before the integration. In fact, the FL employees in MKE and MCI would probably see the most dramatic change in their senority.

The midwest ramp is staffed good enough on most days with bodies that load and unload. There are way to many idiots that need to realize they're at work so losing them would be a happy day. Though if you slim down the work force that is already at a low point, it would just destroy everything and cause more people to leave quickly. As for the current FL rampers, I'm sure Joe would make them the top people at MKE and MCI leaving the MEH Air Group employees at the bottom.

[Edited 2007-05-25 06:38:57]

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-05-25 14:52:36 and read 2491 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 112):
I'm sure Joe would make them the top people at MKE and MCI leaving the MEH Air Group employees at the bottom.

As he would with the rest of the YX people.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 111):
The current customers of Midwest Airline are part of the Stakeholders under Wisconsin law.

And the EMPLOYEES of Midwest are also STAKEHOLDERS. Would mergering with AirTran be in the best interest of the YX employees? I have see nothing to prove to me that it would be a good thing, or even guarantee me the same pay and position that I currently hold.

Quoting Travatl (Reply 110):
Are your ground folks unionized?

No, but many field stations are ground handled by unionized groups. Stations handled under the wing by AA and UA come to mind. The Union people here are already steaming at the possibility of losing YX, because they will have to cut some of their staff (3-4 people).

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-25 17:51:21 and read 2454 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 111):
The current customers of Midwest Airline are part of the Stakeholders under Wisconsin law.

If you're going that far, I guess you could say that the all of Southeast Wisconsin and Northeast Illinois is a stakeholder.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-26 18:38:48 and read 2353 times.

Quoted from ATWOnline:

"SkyWest in April began operating in a codeshare arrangement with Midwest Airlines, which includes onboard baking and serving of Midwest's trademark cookies, he said (ATWOnline, April 3). SkyWest still is trying to master baking and serving cookies by a single flight attendant on a short-haul CRJ flight. "We're getting there. We have to take a long look at how well we can do that," he said."

Awwww...is this SkyWest complaining about all the "hard" work they have to do? I'd hate for this quote to get out to our hard working Skyway crew members. But since when is this a codeshare agreement, you can't codeshare with an airline that doesn't actually have it's own airline. I don't see OO on the tags...

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tender
Username: TedEx
Posted 2007-05-26 20:20:14 and read 2328 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 115):
Awwww...is this SkyWest complaining about all the "hard" work they have to do? I'd hate for this quote to get out to our hard working Skyway crew members.

Don't the planes SkyWest operate for Midwest carry more passengers than what Skyway runs? If so, it makes logical sense that it would take longer to serve a cabin with the increased capacity offered by SkyWest's bigger jets.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 115):
But since when is this a codeshare agreement, you can't codeshare with an airline that doesn't actually have it's own airline.

Regional airlines have their own planes, pilots, flight attendants and dispatch and are indeed their own actual airline. Flights operated under a capacity purchase agreement are coded for *operational purposes* with the actual operating carrier's code and use that carrier's callsign, but the flights are *marketed* with the code of the major partner.

For example, SkyWest flight 5871 ORD-COS is operated as OO5871 but is marketed as UA5871. So even though it's truly SkyWest flight 5871, the tickets and tags will show UA5871.

If you happen to go to flightstats.com and enter a market and then select "hide codeshares" you'll only see flights with the actual operating carrier's code. With the above example, all you'd see is the SkyWest coded flight.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-26 21:27:07 and read 2306 times.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 116):
Don't the planes SkyWest operate for Midwest carry more passengers than what Skyway runs? If so, it makes logical sense that it would take longer to serve a cabin with the increased capacity offered by SkyWest's bigger jets.

18 more people on a CRJ than on an FRJ.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 116):
For example, SkyWest flight 5871 ORD-COS is operated as OO5871 but is marketed as UA5871. So even though it's truly SkyWest flight 5871, the tickets and tags will show UA5871.

If you happen to go to flightstats.com and enter a market and then select "hide codeshares" you'll only see flights with the actual operating carrier's code. With the above example, all you'd see is the SkyWest coded flight.

Correct, and operationally, that flight runs as SKW5871.

If anything, Skyway is even less of an airline as SkyWest, because Skyway doesn't even have its own IATA ticketing number, SkyWest does (302).

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-05-26 21:38:20 and read 2297 times.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 116):
Don't the planes SkyWest operate for Midwest carry more passengers than what Skyway runs? If so, it makes logical sense that it would take longer to serve a cabin with the increased capacity offered by SkyWest's bigger jets.

How hard can be putting frozen cookies, that come on foil trays, into a toaster oven. Oh no...it's sooo hard!

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-05-26 21:51:33 and read 2291 times.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 114):
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 111):
The current customers of Midwest Airline are part of the Stakeholders under Wisconsin law.

If you're going that far, I guess you could say that the all of Southeast Wisconsin and Northeast Illinois is a stakeholder.

You could not claim all of Southeast Wisconsin and Northern Illinois as Stakeholders.

I am not sure if Wisconsin Law (and legal precedence) allows you to claim potential market. However, it it does it would almost certainly only allow a claim based on the potential customers for the current product being sold.

Midwest Airlines offers a premium product. "The best care in the air" and its core customer base is people willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. It's potential customers are people who are also willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. These people are not interested in low cost low service product.

AirTran offers an economy product. Below averages service for below average prices. Its core customer base is people who want the cheapest ticket regardless of inconvenience. Its potential customers are people who are also looking for low cost - low service product. These people are not interested in premium priced premium service.

There is no competition between these two product classes. AirTran and Midwest could operate side by side without having much (if any) effect on each other.

Wisconsin law is very clear that the current customers are part of the Stakeholders of the company. If it allows consideration of future customers that would be the potential future customers who are willing to buy the premium product at a premium price that Midwest currently offers.

I cannot see any way that AirTran would be able to claim that people who are buying - or are looking to buy - a low cost low service product as Midwest Stakeholders. Not current ones - nor potential future ones.

AirTran would be in a much much better legal position if they were also offering premium product at premium prices. But since they are not - and instead are offering the complete opposite - there could be very substantial legal barriers in place that they may not be able to overcome - regardless of the amount of money or stockholders they get on a short term basis.

Of course, over a long term basis (3 or more years) they might be able to overcome the legal barriers by replacing a super-majority on the Board of Directors - who could then change their Articles of Incorporation and bylaws to eliminate concerns for Stakeholders and instead revert to the more standard Stockholders.

However, even that might not work. The BOD is required to consider the interest in the Stakeholders.... (excerpt from Bylaws below)

"Responsibilities and Expectations of Directors

In addition to those duties and responsibilities otherwise required by applicable law, rule or regulation, the listing requirements of the NYSE, and the Company's Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws, each of the Company's directors is expected to:

a. Maintain high ethical standards and remain mindful at all times of his or her duties and responsibilities
to the Company and its shareholders, while also considering the interests of the Company's other
stakeholders under appropriate circumstances. Directors must comply with the Company's Code of
Conduct"


How, might those other Stakeholders ask... Is the BOD considering their interest if they try to remove it from the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws.... I could see a very real Stakeholder lawsuit against a BOD that tried to do that - that would probably have a good chance of succeeding (could any director who attempted that be in violation of the code of conduct and their responsibilities - directors can be removed from a board).

Wisconsin law does not require you to incorporate and protect the stakeholders in a company. A company may incorporate and just consider the interest of shareholders - as is common practice in many states.

However, a company is allowed to incorporate and include the Stakeholders as a protected class (or change their Articles of Incorporation to include Stakeholders). Once it does that - I'm not sure if it can be removed unless the company has failed financially and is reorganizing (Example: bankruptcy).

Should AirTran keep this up - and the Midwest Board hold to its current position (that I feel has good justification) - then this could turn out to be some really interesting legal battles.

I am not sure if there has ever been a successful hostile takeover of a company in Wisconsin that had included "Stakeholders" as part of their protected class.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Gr8SlvrFlt
Posted 2007-05-29 22:42:42 and read 2155 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 89):
AirTran and Midwest are both heading toward a similar product

YX's move towards a dual-class product on all mainline flights is further proof of this.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: JBo
Posted 2007-05-29 22:55:58 and read 2131 times.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 120):

YX's move towards a dual-class product on all mainline flights is further proof of this.

Except I would hardly call YX's dual-class product anything like anyone elses.

Topic: RE: AirTran Extends Tender Offer - 56.6% YX Tendered
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2007-05-29 23:23:35 and read 2098 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 103):
Really? I dont pay for a cushier seat. Especially on flights of 2 hours or less duration, which is most of the network FL operates. Midwest setas are nice, but are the making a good profit?

This is what separates you from the rest of us that do buy tickets based on product. You can fly another carrier. No one is forcing you to use Midwest, but I'll be damned if I stand by and watch Midwest be set aside because you want a cheap seat.


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