Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3433001/

Topic: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-05-30 13:14:53 and read 5718 times.

PIA are rumored to be pulling out of Chicago, Paris, Milan, Bangkok and Singapore after the summer 2007 season.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Cricket
Posted 2007-05-30 13:33:58 and read 5677 times.

Is the airline looking at an order to replace its A310 and 737 fleet because both those types are getting rather long in the tooth, the 777's can't handle all the intercontinental routes.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2007-05-30 14:23:58 and read 5591 times.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 1):
Is the airline looking at an order to replace its A310 and 737 fleet because both those types are getting rather long in the tooth, the 777's can't handle all the intercontinental routes.

I'm sorry, I forget why their 747s aren't allowed to fly to EU. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Because if thats for the long haul, I Think they need to replace those as well, and soon. Because flying through Istanbul or whatever probably isn't helping them for the American routes.

Paris and Milan are being dropped obviously, because there aren't enough passengers flying to these locations when they could be using those 777s somewhere else.

Anybody know what they're doing with their 747s now that they can't fly through the EU?...aside from US trips via Istanbul.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-05-30 14:44:10 and read 5536 times.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 2):
I'm sorry, I forget why their 747s aren't allowed to fly to EU. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Safety concerns for passengers.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 2):
Because flying through Istanbul or whatever probably isn't helping them for the American routes.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 2):
aside from US trips via Istanbul.

No US services are routed via IST, only two flights did that route, all US services are with 777 through Manchester.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 2):
Anybody know what they're doing with their 747s now that they can't fly through the EU

747's are doing schedueld services to Bangkok, Hong Kong, Dhaka, Delhi, Mumbai, Colombo, Riyadh and Jeddah, besides showing up occassionally elsewhere.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 1):
Is the airline looking at an order to replace its A310 and 737 fleet

737 replacement being evaluated with A320 and 737-800.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Planeboy
Posted 2007-05-30 15:55:47 and read 5419 times.

PK would do well if they concentrate on middle-east and subcontinental routes. They could have built a fleet like SriLankan (UL) with a combination of shorthaul (major part of the fleet) and long-haul (moderate). UL has more than 72 flights per week into India, and they seem to only increase these as the day goes by. PK could have done a similar feat with ME countries with some hard negotiations. Gulf region has enough diaspora to sustain them.

Sadly as with many state owned carriers of this region, vested interests always seem to gain the upper hand and these so-called flag carriers decay and remain ceremonial.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-05-30 16:01:45 and read 5398 times.

PK's ORD route is one of their better performing route, especially given they have no competition from the EK's and EY's of the world...

...try getting a J-class seat during peak seasons (there are two), its almost impossible....

Call me "skeptical" on this one..as I'll believe it only when I see it..however, with PK, one just never knows.. spin 

Now if PK were smart, they would solve their CAA/FAA problems and get some of those possible nonstop Pakistan-USA flights rolling..especially to New York...

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2007-05-30 16:05:33 and read 5383 times.

How much would it cost to get the A310/B747 flying into Europe/USA again.

New or used A330/A340//B777 are not easy or cheap to acquire.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Planetime
Posted 2007-05-30 20:48:49 and read 5094 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Now if PK were smart, they would solve their CAA/FAA problems and get some of those possible nonstop Pakistan-USA flights rolling..especially to New York...

Hi Jacobin,

Only if they were smart...  Smile PIA could fill up so many seats from USA-PAK now but due to lack of aircraft they are missing good amount of $$$'s.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 6):
How much would it cost to get the A310/B747 flying into Europe/USA again.

New or used A330/A340//B777 are not easy or cheap to acquire.

Investment might not be worth it on those aging rustbuckets. Yeah 777 specially are not easy to acquire.. 340 might be easier but then you have the issue of crew familiarity. How is acquiring used 744's in the market. That might be the aircraft PIA needs more for destinations like JFK,LHR specially.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-05-30 21:19:12 and read 5036 times.

Istanbul also may go.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Kevin777
Posted 2007-05-30 21:38:10 and read 4999 times.

In addition to the routes mentioned, I could also see OSL/CPH getting the knife in the not too distant future - not because of lack of demand as such, but I doubt that a T7 is economically viable year-round, even if it is only twice a week.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
...try getting a J-class seat during peak seasons (there are two),

Two??? What???!!

Quoting Planetime (Reply 7):
340 might be easier but then you have the issue of crew familiarity.

I reckon 340s are even more difficult to obtain right now than T7s...

Kevin777  Smile

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2007-05-30 23:10:23 and read 4887 times.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 9):
OSL/CPH getting the knife in the not too distant future - not because of lack of demand as such, but I doubt that a T7 is economically viable year-round, even if it is only twice a week.

FYI...OSL & CPH are their most money making mainland EU destinations, they make a lot of money from these 2 destinations between June-August when the B 743s are deployed.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-05-31 02:46:18 and read 4752 times.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 9):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
...try getting a J-class seat during peak seasons (there are two),

Two??? What???!!

....two peak seasons..one during summer and one during winter....

Quoting Planetime (Reply 7):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Now if PK were smart, they would solve their CAA/FAA problems and get some of those possible nonstop Pakistan-USA flights rolling..especially to New York...

Hi Jacobin,

Only if they were smart...  Smile PIA could fill up so many seats from USA-PAK now but due to lack of aircraft they are missing good amount of $$$'s.

Hi Planetime....

If PK management were smart, PK would be a different breed of airline by now.... Wink

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Mh001
Posted 2007-05-31 03:12:08 and read 4724 times.

how are they doing on their islamabad/lahore/karachi - KUL services? i hope KUL services will remain..

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Gemini573
Posted 2007-05-31 03:13:42 and read 4724 times.

Question. What's PIA's frequency to HKG? Don't they go via BKK?

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Kevin777
Posted 2007-05-31 11:51:54 and read 4511 times.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 10):
Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 9):
OSL/CPH getting the knife in the not too distant future - not because of lack of demand as such, but I doubt that a T7 is economically viable year-round, even if it is only twice a week.

FYI...OSL & CPH are their most money making mainland EU destinations, they make a lot of money from these 2 destinations between June-August when the B 743s are deployed.

Yes, but problem is that its not June-August year-round...  Wink and yes, they make a killing there when all the expats visit Pakistan, but the rest of the year I doubt that they can fill a T7 (or a 743 for that matter). Therefore, I wonder if OSL/CPH could get the knife, at least in low season...

Kevin777

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-05-31 12:49:01 and read 4440 times.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 10):
FYI...OSL & CPH are their most money making mainland EU destinations, they make a lot of money from these 2 destinations between June-August when the B 743s are deployed.

The seasonal 743 upgrade has been downgraded to 772 since last summer.

Quoting Mh001 (Reply 12):
how are they doing on their islamabad/lahore/karachi - KUL services? i hope KUL services will remain

Kuala Lumpur may be going instead of BKK.

Also rumored that entire North American operations could be dropped, a bit sensational.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-05-31 21:18:31 and read 4234 times.

Quoting Gemini573 (Reply 13):
Question. What's PIA's frequency to HKG? Don't they go via BKK?

Twice weekly ISB-BKK-HKG A310 and 742M.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Gemini573
Posted 2007-06-02 00:22:00 and read 3997 times.

If BKK were to be dropped, then that would mean HKG as well, unless they re-route. Makes more sense that KUL would get the axe.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-06-02 14:28:30 and read 3858 times.

Yes its got to be KUL-SIN route.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: MAS777
Posted 2007-06-02 14:50:31 and read 3842 times.

PIA only just returned to KUL though!!!

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-06-02 14:56:44 and read 3832 times.

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 19):
PIA only just returned to KUL though!!!

Same as Nairobi which also went after just six months of service following resumption after a seven year suspension.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: KHI747
Posted 2007-06-02 17:53:08 and read 3739 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Call me "skeptical" on this one..as I'll believe it only when I see it..however, with PK, one just never knows..

I told you to mark my words that PK will almost certainly become a regional carrier with ONLY a few long haul flights cateting to immigrant Pakistanis (meaning UK and USA).You have always disagreed with me citing reasons known only to you-that somehow they will be flying all over the world.

PK has shed more then 20 international destinations in the last decade whereas (please dont give me the argument that they have also added some in that time period.....the net effect is still close to -20). I have absolutely no doubt that in Europe there will be almost no service except for the UK. Paris (CDG) and Milan(MXP) will probably go within this year and i'd be surprised if atleast one of the 2 scandanavian services isnt axed as well.

I dont see how they can keep BKK on the network with their 2 x week service from ISB,specially since TG serves KHI,LHE and ISB and offers many more frequencies.

IST,KUL and CGK are the other stations that i am quite skeptical about.

So by next year,in my opinion following would be gone:
CDG
MXP
OSL
BKK
KUL
CGK
IST

The writing is on the wall mate

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-02 18:33:22 and read 3710 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 21):
I told you to mark my words that PK will almost certainly become a regional carrier with ONLY a few long haul flights cateting to immigrant Pakistanis (meaning UK and USA).You have always disagreed with me citing reasons known only to you-that somehow they will be flying all over the world.

...and a lot of it is still mere speculation....I never said PK won't end routes...many carriers do, and I fully expect PK to start some other routes.....and where have I ever stated PK will be competing with the EK's of the world and flying "all over the world"...... as usual, you put post a complete canard...

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: KHI747
Posted 2007-06-02 18:54:01 and read 3689 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
...and a lot of it is still mere speculation....I never said PK won't end routes...many carriers do, and I fully expect PK to start some other routes.....and where have I ever stated PK will be competing with the EK's of the world and flying "all over the world"...... as usual, you put post a complete canard...

Never said you said that they will be competiting with the EK's of the world.

But since the number of routes being dropped FAR out weighs the number being added (in any),how do you justify the notion that they wont become exactly what i refer to as a "regional carrier with a handful of long hauls in USA & UK"?

Like i said net routes in the last decade equate to -20 and of the few left,many are bound to go.Whatever long-haul will be left outside of UK and USA probably wont even add up to a total of 7 flights in a week.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-02 19:02:04 and read 3674 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 23):
Never said you said that they will be competiting with the EK's of the world.

but you keep on mentioning this....

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 21):
flying all over the world.

.....which is complete insinuation they will be competing with the EK's (or other large carriers) of the world....

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 23):
.Whatever long-haul will be left outside of UK and USA probably wont even add up to a total of 7 flights in a week.

.....and that is speculation...

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-06-02 21:17:09 and read 3603 times.

Jakarta was dropped five years ago.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 21):
CGK are the other stations that i am quite skeptical about

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: BY738
Posted 2007-06-02 21:35:42 and read 3590 times.

Lots of cancellations from GLA over the past few months including tonight A310 flight.....curtains for the GLA service ...?

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: KHI747
Posted 2007-06-02 23:14:35 and read 3542 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 25):
Jakarta was dropped five years ago.

Oh well there you go.Actually i was thinking that as i typed but i wasnt 100% sure...thanks for clarifying that.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
.....which is complete insinuation they will be competing with the EK's (or other large carriers) of the world....

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 23):
.Whatever long-haul will be left outside of UK and USA probably wont even add up to a total of 7 flights in a week.

.....and that is speculation...

Every development at PK suggests that is where the airline is going.There is every reason to anticipate their network eventually looking as i describe it yet their is absolutely no reason to believe that PK will continue to have any kind of meaningful presence(if any) on any long haul routes outside of UK and USA within the next 2 years.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-06-03 14:32:42 and read 3369 times.

Service to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Rome and Athens to be resumed soon, according to a PIA spokesman.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-03 16:34:28 and read 3286 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 27):
Every development at PK suggests that is where the airline is going.There is every reason to anticipate their network eventually looking as i describe it yet their is absolutely no reason to believe that PK will continue to have any kind of meaningful presence(if any) on any long haul routes outside of UK and USA within the next 2 years.



Quoting 777way (Reply 28):
Service to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Rome and Athens to be resumed soon, according to a PIA spokesman

......it shouldn't according to the post above (reply 27)... Wink

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Planetime
Posted 2007-06-03 22:59:20 and read 3183 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 27):
Every development at PK suggests that is where the airline is going.There is every reason to anticipate their network eventually looking as i describe it yet their is absolutely no reason to believe that PK will continue to have any kind of meaningful presence(if any) on any long haul routes outside of UK and USA within the next 2 years.

Consolidation and focus on where the money and the demand is. Smart will it happen?????

I am also not sure how much demand is there for Denmark-Pak or Norway-Pak services. I know there is a small community there but is that enough to demand a flight or is it more of a symbolic route.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-04 03:22:04 and read 3109 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 23):
Whatever long-haul will be left outside of UK and USA probably wont even add up to a total of 7 flights in a week.

...I guess you are right (so he says sarcastically)...

" Normal flights of Pakistan International Airlines are operating to all the European destinations while the organization is set to launch a plan to increase frequency of flights."**

**: http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?o...ontent&task=view&id=10051&Itemid=2

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: PIA777
Posted 2007-06-04 07:53:19 and read 3033 times.

PIA will never pull out of ORD. Atleast, I hope not.

PIA777

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Comeflywithme
Posted 2007-06-04 08:49:15 and read 3001 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
" Normal flights of Pakistan International Airlines are operating to all the European destinations while the organization is set to launch a plan to increase frequency of flights."**

Well that statement is clearly false as the last two GLA flights have been cancelled, so clearly all is still not well at PK.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-04 09:30:26 and read 2976 times.

Quoting Comeflywithme (Reply 33):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
" Normal flights of Pakistan International Airlines are operating to all the European destinations while the organization is set to launch a plan to increase frequency of flights."**

Well that statement is clearly false as the last two GLA flights have been cancelled, so clearly all is still not well at PK.

..sure, but ostensibly, it seems as if they are going to be normalising other flights and getting their frequencies back...FRA is back on after a two month hiatus....

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: 777way
Posted 2007-06-04 17:23:00 and read 2824 times.

Route gets upgraded to 772 in peak season previously it would be with 743, so its not symbolic.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 30):
am also not sure how much demand is there for Denmark-Pak or Norway-Pak services. I know there is a small community there but is that enough to demand a flight or is it more of a symbolic route.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: KHI747
Posted 2007-06-04 19:35:09 and read 2737 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
" Normal flights of Pakistan International Airlines are operating to all the European destinations while the organization is set to launch a plan to increase frequency of flights."**

Are you kidding me? You are basing your information on a press release from a PIA spokesman! The same spokesman who will tell you all is well with the EU and their is no question of a ban on the B743s and A310s and that PK has essentially signed the deal for multiple A340-300s the week before they decided to become the launch customer for the B777LR?

I reinstate my point that within the next 1 year (possibly within 2007) we will see a significant number of international routes go.Time will tell.

Topic: RE: PIA To Drop More Destinations?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2007-06-04 20:44:37 and read 2681 times.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 36):
Are you kidding me?

 no 

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 36):
You are basing your information on a press release from a PIA spokesman!

...a prima facie it seems as if it might be a done deal..not to mention, this is a new management...certainly new Chairman

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 36):
The same spokesman who will tell you all is well with the EU and their is no question of a ban on the B743s and A310s and that PK has essentially signed the deal for multiple A340-300s the week before they decided to become the launch customer for the B777LR?

...good thing they went with the -200LR instead..

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 36):
Time will tell.

I finally agree with you on something...

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 36):

I reinstate my point that within the next 1 year (possibly within 2007) we will see a significant number of international routes go.

..you are entitled to your opinion...(no matter how incorrect it is IMHO)..

...and it doesn't explain the fact they are restarting FRA after a couple of months on hiatus...


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/