Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3473788/

Topic: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-23 15:52:55 and read 4399 times.

Just wondering, in case I missed the news, if CO is planning to install new BusinessFirst seats? Being considered as the premium US airline (at least the one with the best service), it seems that they should be thinking of introducing a new BF seat.

And a question on DL's BusinessElite seat: I was browsing delta.com and found a page with info on their in-flight product, but the seat they show is not a fully flat seat. I was under the impression that they were installing a seat similar to AC's new ones. Is that right?

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: FLYACYYZ
Posted 2007-06-23 15:58:32 and read 4389 times.

Quoting Coal (Thread starter):
I was under the impression that they were installing a seat similar to AC's new ones. Is that right?

Correct. DL's new B-E seat is manufactured by Contour Seating and is modelled after AC's Exec-First Suite.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Acey559
Posted 2007-06-23 16:37:05 and read 4341 times.

The new lie-flat seats won't be installed until sometime next year, I believe.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-23 16:39:13 and read 4340 times.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2):
The new lie-flat seats won't be installed until sometime next year, I believe.

DL's?

What about CO. Any info?

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-23 16:46:36 and read 4318 times.

Look for a BizFirst product upgrade in conjunction with the introduction of the 787. While lie-flat seats are being very seriously studied by CO, I have heard that a final decision concerning the seats is still pending.

In the meantime, the first eighteen 772ERs are getting some interior changes to bring them into line with the two newly delivered airplanes.....including AVOD thoughout the aircraft and a gain of 2 BizFirst seats (and a loss of two lavs). The BizFirst seats in the 777 are of a newer design introduced only a couple of years ago. There was once discussion of the 767s getting the newer design BF seats but that did materialize.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-23 17:12:25 and read 4287 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
While lie-flat seats are being very seriously studied by CO

That's gotta be a joke! With DL, UA, and AA introducing lie flat (not to mention the plethora of European and Asian airlines that have had them for ages), I think CO not having lie flats would be quite a competititve disadvantage!

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-23 17:28:45 and read 4255 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
That's gotta be a joke!

No joke.....CO is studying the alternatives; moving to ""true lie flat seats"" would require increased pitch in the BF cabin and has huge financial implications. Also consider that whatever CO decides to do with BF must be appropriate for several kinds of aircraft, including a narrowbody type. Lots to think about. There are many variants of lie flat seats, check seatguru for all of the options, but a lot depends upon the angle of seat when in the lie-flat position. CO has had much success with the newer BF seats installed on the 772ER.......which are kind of but not really lie flat with 170 degrees of recline. Improving a popular and successful product (and seat) can be tricky.

As for what the other carriers are doing, of course the competiton influences decisions, but do note that AA's new biz class seat, for example, seems to have underwhelmed most passengers and critics.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-06-23 17:45:32 and read 4232 times.

CO does not have to offer the same product on all aircraft. Around the world, airlines don't always do that, and CO doesn't do it now.

The 787 and 777 can be offered with the new product. The 767 can be retrofitted with the 777 product (22" seat and 170 degree recline and AVOD) and the 757 can be left as is due to aircraft type and space constraints. The 757s are, by their nature, only going to be used on 8 hour flights, so it's not as vital that they receive the new product since customers are relatively happy with them now (I know I like my flights on them). The 777 and 787 will be used for those flights and much longer, where a full flat product would be more valuable. The 767s will be phased out, so adapting the current 777 product in the mean time is a good interim solution.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-06-23 17:56:10 and read 4219 times.

CO may also simply offer different seats on different routes/aircraft.....they could put a truly flat seat say IAH - NRT, but for a "shorter" transatlantic flight (say ERK -- ORK) they may do a 170 recline as the plane is a 757 and hence much smaller.

But as others have said, with BA updating, AA updating, UA has a flat seat in First (not in Biz) and AA updating to a flat seat, CO will have do something.......I'm sure it is being discussed, or they will lose their edge.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: GlobalDude
Posted 2007-06-23 17:58:53 and read 4216 times.

The current 777 170 degree seat is not popular with passengers and is terribly uncomfortabe if you are taller than about 5'7". They are suitable for 7 hours or so, but ultra long haul they are not on par with ANY other global airline biz/first hybrid product ( better than Delta now, but not after they install flat) and most biz products.

If CAL doesn't do it with the 787, they will have to retrofit later at a large cost. The 757 and 767 can stay as is with avod added where missing, but the 777/787 need flat to stay in the ballgame.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: COEI2007
Posted 2007-06-23 18:05:33 and read 4198 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
That's gotta be a joke! With DL, UA, and AA introducing lie flat (not to mention the plethora of European and Asian airlines that have had them for ages), I think CO not having lie flats would be quite a competititve disadvantage!

Lie-flat isnt soo bad. QR and the new EI seat look pretty comfortable!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
No joke.....CO is studying the alternatives; moving to ""true lie flat seats"" would require increased pitch in the BF cabin and has huge financial implications. Also consider that whatever CO decides to do with BF must be appropriate for several kinds of aircraft, including a narrowbody type. Lots to think about.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
CO may also simply offer different seats on different routes/aircraft.....they could put a truly flat seat say IAH - NRT, but for a "shorter" transatlantic flight (say ERK -- ORK) they may do a 170 recline as the plane is a 757 and hence much smaller.

CO doesnt want to be operating a/c with different types of seats. They want to offer a standard product. Its confusing for pax to be flying IAH-NRT in a fully flat seat, and then to fly EWR-SNN in the old type seat!

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-23 18:35:29 and read 4157 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
I'm sure it is being discussed, or they will lose their edge.

It is.

Quoting GlobalDude (Reply 9):
The current 777 170 degree seat is not popular with passengers

Source or back up for this statement? From what I know and hear, the opposite is true and pax are pleased with the 777 BF seat. Personally, I am 6'4 and find the seat very comfortable and like it much better than the 757/757 seat.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
CO may also simply offer different seats on different routes/aircraft.....they could put a truly flat seat say IAH - NRT, but for a "shorter" transatlantic flight (say ERK -- ORK) they may do a 170 recline as the plane is a 757 and hence much smaller

CO would prefer a standardized BF product across the board......they have done it until now and want to continue with that approach in the future. Also consider that CO uses different types on the the same route: EWR-London is a mix of 777s and 757s (as is EWR-Paris), BRU and FRA alternate between the 767 and 777, EWR-MAD is a mix of 767s and 757s, etc, etc. Having one type of BF product on one airplane and a different type of another could prove problematic. Will the seats be exactly the same on each type, likely not, but CO does not want the 757 BF product to be considered inferior.....there was a reason that the 757 got AVOD first in BF.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
The 767s will be phased out, so adapting the current 777 product in the mean time is a good interim solution.

That the 767s are leaving the CO fleet in the near-term future is an a.net myth......the 764s are simply not going anywhere. As for the 762s (which also fly some rather long segments), there is no definite plan to replace or phase out the type at this time........and CO has received offers for the 762ER fleet as they would make amazing cargo planes. (Although, it must be noted that if oil stays at $70/bbl the retirement of the 762s could be accellerated.) There are 25 787s on order, most (if not all) of which are currently intended to expand international flying and to fine tune longhaul services.....some of the routes now flown by the 752 are operational headaches and we will see some changes in aircraft allocations on some routes once the 787s are on line. In summary ,the 767s will fly with a biz class that is similiar to the other members of the widebody fleet while the 757 may get a modified product due to the limitations of a narrow body fuselage. But, from what I hear, CO will upgrade BizFirst fleetwide.

----------------

To date, CO has offered one of the better business class products around, one of the few products offered by a US carrier that could compete with Euroepan airlines (and some Asian carriers). They will not loose their advantage and edge and many many options are being studied.....but, as I said above, no final decision has been made concerning the specifics of the new biz class seat. I cant imagine that CO will not go with ""Lie-flat"", but as many of us know, lie flat seats mean different things on different airlines.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-06-23 18:40:46 and read 4146 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
As for the 762s (which also fly some rather long segments), there is no definite plan to replace or phase out the type at this time...

No, not at this time. As the 787s come in. CO has very clearly indicated that the 762 is their weak link, and it's why they added more 787 orders earlier than expected.

The 764 will last longer, but again, the 777 product in the 764 is not a bad solution. They might have to build a new middle seat to match, and of course update the video and power, but it's "nearly" flat and would work on TATL and Micro flights.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-23 18:56:53 and read 4118 times.

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 10):
Lie-flat isnt soo bad. QR and the new EI seat look pretty comfortable!

If you read again you'll notice I was implying he opposite, ie. lie-flat is good.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-23 18:57:40 and read 4118 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
No, not at this time. As the 787s come in. CO has very clearly indicated that the 762 is their weak link, and it's why they added more 787 orders earlier than expected.

Some type of vague comment was issue by CO about 1.5 years ago.........there is no definite retirement dates set for the 762 fleet. 762 retirement dates will be determined by (1) general business conditions. (2) fuel prices, and (3) the ability to finance new aircraft (read additional 787s) to replace the 762ERs. When CO last increased its 787 order, it also converted many airframes on order to the 789 which is a much bigger airplane then the 762. CO has placed and will continue to place and announce 787 orders as financing becomes available to the airline.....and 787 orders are not directly linked to plans for the 762.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
The 764 will last longer, but again, the 777 product in the 764 is not a bad solution.

But its not the solution that CO wants. There were plans to install the 777 type BF seat into the 767 fleet and they were dropped as it was not considered a cost effective investment........meaning that CO already planned for a fleet-wide BF upgrade a few years ago that will be rolled out with the introduction of the 787.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2007-06-23 20:55:09 and read 4022 times.

although lie flat seats are awesome i would only really use it for a flight like LAX to LHR, something really long, the 757's don't need a bed like seat for the shorter trips because people would not really use them and it would take a lot of the seats away, they should put lie flat seats like DL and UA are going to do on the 787's and 777's and possibly 764's but the other 767's could take the 777's seats and the 757 could remain the same

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-24 08:37:40 and read 3632 times.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 15):
the 757's don't need a bed like seat for the shorter trips because people would not really use them and it would take a lot of the seats away

Say you're flying EWR-OSL and have an extremely important meeting in the morning that can possibly bring your company millions or billions of dollars. You really think you're not going to try and get some sleep?

Please! It's on those routes in which the flat beds would be valued the most!

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Amirs
Posted 2007-06-24 09:03:17 and read 3600 times.

just too be fair with th pioneers ....

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 1):
and is modelled after AC's Exec-First Suite.

and AC modeled it after VS and NZ.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-24 10:20:55 and read 3480 times.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 17):
and AC modeled it after VS and NZ.

Wouldn't it be fair(er?) to say that Contour just offered them the same seat option with a different upholstery colors? Just a thought  wink 

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-06-24 11:03:01 and read 3410 times.

As to seats in general, don't most airlines buy "off the rack" as it were? What I'm getting at is various companies make different seats, and CO/AA/UA whoever decides to install seat "A" over seat "B". Do any airlines have seat that is "theirs" only (in the sense they have a patent or exclusive agreement?).

Coal,

agree......when you're talking big bucks, you want a good night sleep before you walk in.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Coal
Posted 2007-06-24 12:22:52 and read 3312 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 19):
Do any airlines have seat that is "theirs" only (in the sense they have a patent or exclusive agreement?).

Good question, although there are a few seat types out there that I've only seen on one or at most two airlines. SQ's Spacebeds (also seen on UA) come to mind as well as the new Business Class seats. I would imagine First Class seats also fall into this category, as those tend to be pretty unique.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 19):
agree......when you're talking big bucks, you want a good night sleep before you walk in.

 checkmark 

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Lemurs
Posted 2007-06-25 18:52:19 and read 2794 times.

It's sort of easy to see how CO would probably LIKE this to go. Most of the US majors have updated their J/F products recently, and will only get them out fleet-wide in the next couple of years. Choosing a new seat in time for their first 787 delivery in 2009 means they can have a large PR push timed to coincide with a big international expansion, and ensure they're relatively ahead of the curve for at least a few years. (The US market can't react to their domestic competitors as quickly as the more profitable Euro and Asian airlines...so once they've picked their new J cabin, they're stuck for about 10 years.) Then they'll inaugurate new service to some exotic destination with their first 787-8, with a big ceremony and advertising push showing off the new BF cabin, and then slowly roll it out to the rest of the fleet over the following few years.

They did the same thing with the 777's when they took delivery of them in 98, and it worked quite well for quite some time.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-25 19:02:20 and read 2775 times.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 21):
It's sort of easy to see how CO would probably LIKE this to go. Most of the US majors have updated their J/F products recently, and will only get them out fleet-wide in the next couple of years. Choosing a new seat in time for their first 787 delivery in 2009 means they can have a large PR push timed to coincide with a big international expansion, and ensure they're relatively ahead of the curve for at least a few years. (The US market can't react to their domestic competitors as quickly as the more profitable Euro and Asian airlines...so once they've picked their new J cabin, they're stuck for about 10 years.) Then they'll inaugurate new service to some exotic destination with their first 787-8, with a big ceremony and advertising push showing off the new BF cabin, and then slowly roll it out to the rest of the fleet over the following few years.

They did the same thing with the 777's when they took delivery of them in 98, and it worked quite well for quite some time.

BINGO......good analysis.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: STT757
Posted 2007-06-25 19:14:55 and read 2753 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 16):
Say you're flying EWR-OSL and have an extremely important meeting in the morning that can possibly bring your company millions or billions of dollars. You really think you're not going to try and get some sleep?

The type of travelers who are making those kind of deals are not flying commecial, they are flying G-Vs from Teterboro.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: 777gk
Posted 2007-06-25 19:34:57 and read 2716 times.

I said for a while that the 787 is going to need to be 3-3-3 in Y to counteract the greater floor space flat J seats would require in a two-class configuration. The aircraft will need to carry a critical mass of passengers to make money on many routes, and having 8-abreast Y with an industry-leading J class on a 787 would not be a dense enough configuration to facilitate this as North Atlantic competition heats up.

Quoting Coal (Reply 16):

Say you're flying EWR-OSL and have an extremely important meeting in the morning that can possibly bring your company millions or billions of dollars. You really think you're not going to try and get some sleep?

I see your point, but the odds are that he's flying to OSL on a G-V if the meeting is worth that much dough.

The ultra-high-end, luxury market is evaporating on commercial flights. Those who have the money to spend on international first class these days are more apt to travel on private aircraft now than ever before. That section of the market is growing, and I think it's prudent for airlines to develop products that offer services, amenities, and functionality that appeals to the top 20% of the market (as opposed to the top 5 or 10%).

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):

But its not the solution that CO wants. There were plans to install the 777 type BF seat into the 767 fleet and they were dropped

Exactly... I just peeked at the news archives from 02 and found this tidbit:

The seats will be installed at Continental's new maintenance hangar at Newark International Airport. The process takes an average of three days to complete per aircraft, with total project completion targeted for the fourth quarter. While initial plans are to install the new BusinessFirst seats in its Boeing 777 aircraft, the seats were specially designed to be compatible with other aircraft in Continental's fleet including the Boeing 767 and 757.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: 777gk
Posted 2007-06-25 19:36:33 and read 2713 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):

The type of travelers who are making those kind of deals are not flying commecial, they are flying G-Vs from Teterboro.



Quoting 777gk (Reply 24):

I see your point, but the odds are that he's flying to OSL on a G-V

Always on the same page... must be that Jersey water! Big grin

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Slider
Posted 2007-06-25 20:29:09 and read 2656 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
No joke.....CO is studying the alternatives; moving to ""true lie flat seats"" would require increased pitch in the BF cabin and has huge financial implications.

No it wouldn't....the config can be the diamond or herringbone type pattern, in which the seats are placed at a slight angle, thus allowing full lie-flat capability and still not reducing the number of premium revenue generating seats, nor driving a reduction in pitch.

And the alternatives have been reviewed and decision has been made by and large.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-25 20:40:20 and read 2637 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
No it wouldn't....the config can be the diamond or herringbone type pattern, in which the seats are placed at a slight angle, thus allowing full lie-flat capability and still not reducing the number of premium revenue generating seats, nor driving a reduction in pitch

Just like Virgin, AC, ANZ and many others.....even with the angles, space is an issue, especially on the 757s and 767s.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
And the alternatives have been reviewed and decision has been made by and large.

Last I heard, a final decision concerning the next BF seat had not been made. If a decision has been made, what is it?

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: Slider
Posted 2007-06-25 20:50:43 and read 2624 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):

Last I heard, a final decision concerning the next BF seat had not been made. If a decision has been made, what is it?

Made but not fully announced. LOPAs are confirmed however.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: STT757
Posted 2007-06-25 23:43:02 and read 2530 times.

Quoting 777gk (Reply 24):
The ultra-high-end, luxury market is evaporating on commercial flights. Those who have the money to spend on international first class these days are more apt to travel on private aircraft now than ever before.

I agree, more High end business will go either to Net-Jets, Jetaviation on one end or Privatair etc on the other end. CO might want to consider a Privatair, Silverjet, EOS, Maxjet operation from EWR to the Financial capitals of Europe and from IAH to the Gulf States and Oil centers of West Africa, Southern Russia Caucuses etc..

Quoting 777gk (Reply 25):
Always on the same page... must be that Jersey water!

I think we are both drinking from the Swimming River Reservoir behind Brookdale Community College, good stuff.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: STT757
Posted 2007-06-25 23:45:16 and read 2528 times.

777GK,

Have you noticed quiet little Monmouth Regional Airport is growing, lots of Net Jets etc.

Topic: RE: Will CO Introduce New BF Seat? & Q Abt DL BE Seat
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2007-06-26 00:02:46 and read 2511 times.

What's a LOPA???
filler.... filler.... full yet?


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/