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Topic: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Mneo
Posted 2007-06-28 08:28:38 and read 11746 times.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R06dAgpmmbg
I really dont know what to say.

[Edited 2007-06-28 08:29:13]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2007-06-28 08:37:06 and read 11728 times.

Wow, I flew on Comair JFK-BTV that night and remember that same seizure holding us up.. on a Freedom plane. We only spent 1:30 in line though  Sad, no mechanical to hold us up, and only got into the game at 8pm.

[Edited 2007-06-28 08:45:10]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Acey
Posted 2007-06-28 09:24:12 and read 11637 times.

No biggie. Happened to a bunch more guys at JFK tonight.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: PlateMan
Posted 2007-06-28 10:04:18 and read 11582 times.

Wow, what a terrible situation. Thanks for sharing the video.


[Edited 2007-06-28 10:07:35] Typo

[Edited 2007-06-28 10:09:33]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: GOCAPS16
Posted 2007-06-28 10:44:28 and read 11536 times.

Wow, JFK is such a craphole. I'll never fly out of JFK since my last two recent flights with Delta were terrible. A 3 hour delay on a flight to Manchester, UK and on a JFK-DCA flight were Comair suddenly cancelled our flight due to maintenance but managed to get us on another flight from LGA-DCA on Shuttle that leaves in 2 hours. We all made it to LGA with only 10 minutes before that Shuttle flight left. When i finally made it home to DC, my original flight from JFK-DCA was only an hour and 30 minutes late. So, Comair had lied to us and Comair did a really piss poor job with our transportation from JFK to LGA. But, for seven hours?!? That's insane. I think if that was me, I would've lost all my respect for Shuttle America at all.

[Edited 2007-06-28 10:46:49]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: AirlineAddict
Posted 2007-06-28 14:07:30 and read 11340 times.

Here's this from June 21st... stuck on a Comair airplane at JFK for four hours with no air conditioning until they finally allowed passengers to deplane.

(story and video)

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/topstories_story_179022614.html

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: JetBluefan1
Posted 2007-06-28 17:57:12 and read 11119 times.

Note how DL doesn't get any coverage while JetBlue got tons.

 crazy 

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-28 18:06:28 and read 11095 times.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 6):
Note how DL doesn't get any coverage while JetBlue got tons.

It is called Maximization of Crews, and sadly Delta and their renewed image are being killed in the New York market. I have 3 colleagues that were to fly Delta from JFK-LAS, due to the video seen about the ComAir flight they decided to cancel their tickets and rebook onboard Jet Blue. Time is money, to blame ATC for everything is a bunch of crap..

This is going to continue. Delta will continue to have these problems until they get their house in order.

Quoting Acey (Reply 2):
No biggie. Happened to a bunch more guys at JFK tonight

And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 1):
I flew on Comair

That is a problem in and of itself..

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2007-06-28 18:09:51 and read 11082 times.

Notice how the 4 hour delay on Comair got much more attention than the 7 hour Shuttle America delay to DFW, and they actually flew!
Then again, OH didn't have working A/C and there were vomiting pax.

Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)? I felt like he was really trying under the circumstances. The captain who "timed out" also seemed like he was legitimately concerned, unlike the Comair pilots on JFK-DTW's indifference.

-A

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2007-06-28 18:15:59 and read 11045 times.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
The captain who "timed out" also seemed like he was legitimately concerned, unlike the Comair pilots on JFK-DTW's indifference.

I'm sure you would sound indifferent, too, if you had some guy barge into the cockpit and demanding answers to questions that could not be answered within the amount of time this guy wanted them. Not to mention that becuase of the storm, the passengers could not be let off of the aircraft. What was he to do? Passengers throwing up does NOT constitute an emergency need to evacuate the passengers from the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Acey
Posted 2007-06-28 18:18:45 and read 11021 times.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)? I felt like he was really trying under the circumstances.

That was the captain who replaced the timed-out captain.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it.

 checkmark  I agree. Reactions such as...

Quoting Mneo (Thread starter):
I really dont know what to say.

...are helpless because this kind of thing happens all the time, we're just usually not aware of it. Whenever storms roll through someone always ends up sitting on the ramp for 5 hours.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: 747fan
Posted 2007-06-28 18:24:21 and read 10991 times.

The whoe NE region of the country really got hammered last night from severe storms - there were quite a few power outages in Manhattan and I heard some of the subway was even down for a while! Wow!

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2007-06-28 19:11:49 and read 10869 times.

The guy with an accent was a captain? Because they were on the P/A I assumed it was an F/A..

Still, it seems like the pilots were really concerned. No FAs to be seen though.

-A

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2007-06-28 19:17:22 and read 10838 times.

the whole thing must have really sucked but at least they were keeping the passengers infromed since there really was nothing the crew could do, bummer!

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2007-06-28 19:23:23 and read 10809 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
Not to mention that becuase of the storm, the passengers could not be let off of the aircraft.

First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines here? People drive in rain all the time, people walk in rain all the time. If you can't fly in rain, then get the people off the plane. It is just not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2007-06-28 19:27:03 and read 10794 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
I have 3 colleagues that were to fly Delta from JFK-LAS, due to the video seen about the ComAir flight they decided to cancel their tickets and rebook onboard Jet Blue. Time is money, to blame ATC for everything is a bunch of crap..

Hopefully they didn't fly last night, when the jetBlue flights were 5 hours late. jetBlue flights are not free from weather and ATC delays. Blaming ATC is not crap. The weather is crap, and ATC has to adjust, and passengers suffer. It is not jetBlue's, Delta's, or anyone's fault; it's just the way the weather works.

The lesson to be learned is, if flying into New York in the summer, make sure you arrive and depart before 3 PM, and fly through any other airport if connecting.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2007-06-28 19:29:41 and read 10777 times.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside. How does one get to a bus? By walking outside. The ramp is closed for their safety. If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued, everyone would be saying they should have been left on the plane. There is no way to make everyone happy.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-28 19:41:23 and read 10716 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

And by that I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights. Congress does not need to be legislating customer service levels for private industry.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: IPFreely
Posted 2007-06-28 19:52:29 and read 10661 times.

Quoting GOCAPS16 (Reply 4):
I think if that was me, I would've lost all my respect for Shuttle America at all.

Hmmm, maybe no comment is needed.  Smile

I really liked the fact that they put subtitles in the video for the Captain's PA announcements, which were (sort of) in English.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-06-28 20:06:59 and read 10602 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Short of outlawing bad weather, Congress can't do much for many cases. Some of the ideas being circulated simply imply in a massive growth of preventive cancellations. Lots more passengers would see their flights cancelled and with a slight shift in weather those cancellations would have proved unnecessary.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
And by that I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system,

Now, that would be something positive - but not a fix to most bad weather meltdowns.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: BlueFlyer
Posted 2007-06-28 20:43:05 and read 10503 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Short of outlawing bad weather

You can't outlaw bad weather, but you can outlaw overcapacity scheduling, and in my opinion, that would be a great start. I can't think of a single reason why airlines ought to be allowed to schedule more flights in and out of an airport than the runway capacity and landing procedures allow for. Of course, how you determine the capacity threshold (absolute capacity, average historical capacity for the month/season, somewhat arbitrary number, etc...) and how you allocate it is a debate unto itself.

Wasn't it CO that at one time had just by itself more flights scheduled to leave EWR within a 60-minute period of the evening bank than the entire runway capacity ?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: JCS17
Posted 2007-06-28 20:53:03 and read 10472 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Well, that wins the "Misguided Statement of the Month" award. Congress doesn't understand the industry and legislating something like aircraft delays is like telling a chef to be a police officer. The real problem stems from the fact that this flight was operated by Shuttle America for Delta. Delta doesn't really care because the flight, operationally, has very little to do with DL aside from a flight number. As far as they're concerned, once the a/c has pushed back, it's out of their hair. The real problem is that airlines (CO, NW, AA are probably the lone exceptions) generally do have that attitude towards the regionals flying for them.

As for comaparing the to the Jetblue incident several months ago, it really doesn't compare at all.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-28 21:57:22 and read 10358 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
Congress does not need to be legislating customer service levels for private industry.

What happened on that plane was nothing short of holding people hostage. If the passengers wanted to deboard the aircraft they should have been allowed to. The excuse of no gate space is a bunch of garbage. Air Stairs are readily available at JFK, as are mobile lounges, buses, and transports to the terminal for stranded passengers, as were on this flight. The problem is that airlines max out the equipment to a point that one plane out of service causes the entire deck of cards to crumble. I cannot see how these kinds of incidents will be allowed to continue without a long-term solution coming into play.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 21):
As for comaparing the to the Jetblue incident several months ago, it really doesn't compare at all.

So True.. As Jet Blue at least fed and offered beverages, entertained with PTV, to the passengers aboard the plane..

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 21):
Delta doesn't really care because the flight, operationally, has very little to do with DL aside from a flight number. As far as they're concerned, once the a/c has pushed back, it's out of their hair.

That is the attitude that drives customers, even the most loyal customers to other airlines. The approach that AA, CO, and NW have to their regionals is much more cordial, and thus why these kinds of incidents are not happening on those airlines for the most part. In the long run if this continues I can see we will be expecting weekly reports on stranded Comair and Shuttle America pax at JFK. Regional or not, Delta has to be feeling the heat of these recent incidents..

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Lots more passengers would see their flights cancelled and with a slight shift in weather those cancellations would have proved unnecessary.

At an airport like JFK why is it that Delta cant fill a MD88 or 738 to Dallas? It amazes me to see that almost all of Delta Air Lines recent domestic growth has come on the backs of the Barbie and Jungle Jets. Do we need another one of these flights at JFK, EWR, or LGA? I hope the answer is no!

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights.

So we are to blame the ATC for all of the problems?? Well that would be inaccurate at best. Airlines have grown their schedules so bloated, and so frequent that ATC cant keep up with it. Unless there is a ton of money invested in ATC in the next few years, instead of expanding airlines are going to have to decrease frequency in favor of larger equipment, most notably in the NYC market. The system can only handle so much. ATC is not the sole person to blame, the airlines and their adoration for small planes at redundant frequencies have choked airports like JFK, EWR, and LGA.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 15):
The lesson to be learned is, if flying into New York in the summer, make sure you arrive and depart before 3 PM, and fly through any other airport if connecting.

Newark on average sees delays of 1 hour more than JFK..

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-06-28 22:20:58 and read 10285 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
So True.. As Jet Blue at least fed and offered beverages, entertained with PTV, to the passengers aboard the plane..

Now JetBlue is the good guy, and Delta (insert regional partner) is the bad buy? Last February, opinions were very very different.

-------------

Look, what happened on that airplane was horrible, get the pax off of the airplane until there is a reasonable expectation that the flight can depart.....clearly, at a certain point in this flight's story, there were no pilots to fly the airplane to Dallas, the crew was timing out and the new pilots were at EWR, so why hold the passengers on board in uncomfortable seats without food? (I dont even want to think about those little kids....I dont know if it was worse for the kids or the pax listening to their cries.) I agree with you, the ""NO GATE"" excuse is nonsense. Get the pax off of the airplane until (1) there are pilots to fly the airplane and (2) the flight is 100% ready to taxi to the runway (if the flight is number 30 for take-off at that point, there is little that can be done, but a one hour wait onboard is very different than sitting on an airplane for 6 hours withing pissing distance of the terminal and not being let off.)

Maybe we need more regional jets creating congestion at major airports? While we cant control the weather, and ATC does the best it can with these difficult situations, something eventually has to be done about airport congestion.

This really isnt about Delta, or Comair, or JetBlue or any other airline, its about a system that is not working. Mistakes were made in this situation, but the bigger problem is how to deal with prolonged delays such as this due to conditions out of the airlines' control.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: GQfluffy
Posted 2007-06-28 22:36:09 and read 10236 times.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

True. The only other question I had was visibilty on the runways. It looked fine when they were parked on the ramp...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-28 22:44:43 and read 10200 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Now JetBlue is the good guy, and Delta (insert regional partner) is the bad buy? Last February, opinions were very very different.

I am not saying anyone is good or bad.. What I was saying was that JetBlue outwardly was doing more its passengers than Delta(Shuttle America), was doing in this case. A passenger doesnt know the difference from Shuttle America to Delta. To them it is one in the same. The service, or lack of care in this case falls from the customers eyes onto Delta Air Lines.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 24):
This really isnt about Delta, or Comair, or JetBlue or any other airline, its about a system that is not working.

100% Agreed.. But I will continue to say that the system is not working because in the New York City market we have way to many little planes coming to and from the same places that cause the problems clogging up the skies over JFK, EWR, and LGA. That problem could easily be solved by using larger equipment at a less frequent schedule. Our airports are overcrowded, our skies are clogged, yet the airlines keeping adding Jungle and Barbies just to play one up with each other. Who wins in the end? It certainly doesnt seem like the passengers or the overcrowded airports they fly from..

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2007-06-28 23:00:27 and read 10149 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
Newark on average sees delays of 1 hour more than JFK..

Newark = New York City Metro Area, which I meant.

My statement should probably go for PHL as well, but PHL has other reasons why it should be avoided.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-28 23:03:38 and read 10142 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights.

So we are to blame the ATC for all of the problems?? Well that would be inaccurate at best. Airlines have grown their schedules so bloated, and so frequent that ATC cant keep up with it. Unless there is a ton of money invested in ATC in the next few years, instead of expanding airlines are going to have to decrease frequency in favor of larger equipment, most notably in the NYC market. The system can only handle so much. ATC is not the sole person to blame, the airlines and their adoration for small planes at redundant frequencies have choked airports like JFK, EWR, and LGA.

So you agree with me then. Their needs to be a significant investment made in the ATC system and in the airports to increase capacity. Few, if any, that are educated on this issue disagree with that statement. Congress' role, to which I was referring, has to do with the fact that the aviation taxes and fees associated with funding the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) operation and oversight of the federal aviation system will expire at the end of FY2007, as will most of the related federal aviation programs. These taxes and fees, which are deposited in the airport and airways trust fund (aviation trust fund), pay for the majority of FAA's activities. The FAA, industry, passenger's rights groups, and others have expressed concern that the current funding system is inadequate to meet future federal needs for upgrading, expanding, maintaining, and operating the existing federal air navigation system as part of the FAA's Next Generation Air Transportation System (NGATS). Furthermore, the current financing system needs to be reexamined because it is potentially unreliable, e.g. events such as September 11th and recessions can have a major and unpredictable impact on annual tax and fee collections. Hence, in this view, the existing system might not be able to provide the long term consistent source of annual revenues that would allow for the orderly funding of NGATS and other FAA programs.

Congress has begun consideration of the FAA reauthorization proposal and hearings began in the House and Senate authorizing committees during the month of March. Congress' FAA reauthorization proposal must also face consideration by congressional finance committees, and needs to address three questions. First is the question of whether the trust fund will provide sufficient revenue to meet the growing needs of the FAA's activities and programs. Second is the controversial issue of how much of the FAA's total funding should come from the Treasury's general fund account, the so-called "public interest" contribution. And third is the long standing issue of whether the existing tax and fee system is the appropriate mechanism for producing trust fund revenues, or whether an entirely new revenue collection mechanism should be adopted.

The FAA, industry, and passenger groups remain firmly convinced of the need to create a new aviation funding system, with corresponding FAA budgetary and administrative changes.

So, to answer your question, I don't blame "ATC". I do blame the system though, and the system is run by the government. Government's role is to create conditions whereby business can thrive. In this case, the government has failed in that role, because the conditions they have created (i.e. with airport capacity and the lack of a modern ATC system) have not allowed airlines to thrive. The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic. Traffic has gone up because demand has gone up, yet government has not responded by also increasing capacity proportionally.

As for Congress legislating customer service levels, before they do it for airlines can they also do it for restaurants, retail stores, auto mechanics, move theatres, etc etc etc.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-28 23:10:13 and read 10120 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
approach that AA, CO, and NW have to their regionals is much more cordial, and thus why these kinds of incidents are not happening on those airlines for the most part.

They're not?

I've sat in DTW on a NW Airlink CRJ for 3 hours because lightning was in the area and no one could marshal us in.

I've sat in line at JFK for 2 hours on American Eagle.

Just because this one guy had an issue (granted a big one), and happened to videotape it doesn;t mean that 1) it doesn't happen at other airlines and 2) it happens all the time at Delta Connection...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-28 23:10:49 and read 10123 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
As for Congress legislating customer service levels, before they do it for airlines can they also do it for restaurants, retail stores, auto mechanics, move theatres, etc etc etc.

It appears my words have not come across in the manner I was trying to express. What I was trying to say was that the trend of holding passengers hostage aboard the aircraft as was the case with the JFK-DFW flight should not be an acceptable SOP for the airlines. Any airline that does this should be held accountable and called on it. You cannot hold someone in this country against their own free will. The notion of telling people they cant get off of a plane that has not left the ground after a 7 hour delay onboard the flight is ludicrous.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic.

The other reason that was left off of the response was that the airlines have maxed out their fleets to a point they have no choice but to fly the flight, or lose the revenue for both the arriving and departing flight of that aircraft. That surely is not the fault of ATC. It is the fault of airlines that max out their fleets without a replacement in cases such as this.

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-28 23:15:40 and read 10109 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 29):
The other reason that was left off of the response was that the airlines have maxed out their fleets to a point they have no choice but to fly the flight, or lose the revenue for both the arriving and departing flight of that aircraft. That surely is not the fault of ATC. It is the fault of airlines that max out their fleets without a replacement in cases such as this.

Go back and read the whole post:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic. Traffic has gone up because demand has gone up, yet government has not responded by also increasing capacity proportionally.

So airlines, who exist to turn a profit, are not supposed to meet demand? That's ludicrous. And you want airlines to have airplanes lying around, instead of "maxing out their fleets" and running it to peak efficiency? Right. I'll spell it out again for you since you missed it the first time:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
So, to answer your question, I don't blame "ATC". I do blame the system though, and the system is run by the government. Government's role is to create conditions whereby business can thrive. In this case, the government has failed in that role, because the conditions they have created (i.e. with airport capacity and the lack of a modern ATC system) have not allowed airlines to thrive.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 29):
What I was trying to say was that the trend of holding passengers hostage aboard the aircraft as was the case with the JFK-DFW flight should not be an acceptable SOP for the airlines. Any airline that does this should be held accountable and called on it. You cannot hold someone in this country against their own free will. The notion of telling people they cant get off of a plane that has not left the ground after a 7 hour delay onboard the flight is ludicrous.

And you probably would be the same guy who complained that they missed their departure slot because they were too busy letting people off the airplane...

[Edited 2007-06-28 23:17:42]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-28 23:28:51 and read 10067 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
Go back and read the whole post

I have read the post.. The response given was that the airline is in part to blame for maxing out its fleet, at an overextended airport such as JFK.

It has been proven over and over again, even the video spelled out that the airline did not want to return to the gate as it would take to much time. The aircraft had a mechanical which was said time and time again throughout the video. The aircraft had a mechanical issue, is that the fault of ATC?

Delta Air Lines/Shuttle America dispatch was the one who decided not to cancel the flight. To make it even worse the flight was delayed so long there was a change of crew. This was a mismanagement of fleet, crew, and resources.. The airline didnt want to get food, and Delta didnt want to do anything since the flight was not supposed to be catered in the first place. Again, Delta Air Lines was to blame from the get go. Not ATC!

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
So airlines, who exist to turn a profit, are not supposed to meet demand? That's ludicrous

What is ludicrous is that the blame being posted by yourself doesn't fall in part on the airline for maximization of fleet resources, in a market that is extremely time sensitive. Blaming ATC for the problems that have happened over the last week is totally false.

Delta Air Line went so far as to say the flight landed at 750pm>>> Come on is ATC to blame for that as well?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
And you probably would be the same guy who complained that they missed their departure slot because they were too busy letting people off the airplane...

That was out of left field...

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2007-06-28 23:59:14 and read 9640 times.

"Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines"

I agree. There was absolutely NO reason those people should have gone through that crap. Unbelievable.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: BOACVC10
Posted 2007-06-29 00:08:59 and read 9484 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside. How does one get to a bus? By walking outside. The ramp is closed for their safety. If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued, everyone would be saying they should have been left on the plane. There is no way to make everyone happy.

I guess one has to be very naive in their experiences or just plain ignorant of the available GSE in use in various airports worldwide. YOU CAN GET COVERED MOBILE / TOWABLE ADJUSTABLE stairs, for deplaning passengers from aircraft, that can be equipped with full weather shielded canopies. The only thing you need to do is to dock the mobile stairs with the aircraft and have the bus / ground transport drive directly into the canopy area of the stairs on the tarmac. I give an example of a commercial product, there are others out there. Note the words: "Enclosed canopy for flights and
platform". While the product I am describing is for larger aircraft, a small CRJ/ERJ aircraft sized mobile stairs should not be that expensive.

Note to moderators, there is another thread describing the PAX/Video JFK 4 hour ground delay, similiar in nature to this discussion, suggest merging the two threads into one.


BOACVC10

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-29 00:17:27 and read 9382 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 32):
"Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines"

I agree. There was absolutely NO reason those people should have gone through that crap. Unbelievable

 checkmark 

100% Agreed

The poor airline excuse is used at time when the airlines are partially to blame. By no means are mechanical, fleet maximization, or crew timing outs the fault of the ATC. The airlines are in fact the ones that are pushing their crews, gates, fleets and other resources to their limits. ATC controls the flights, yes they are to blame if they give incorrect taxiway information, gate information, and so forth. Yet the airlines should have the common sense not to have huge arrival and departure banks utilizing their fleets to the max at an airport like JFK. Leaving no room for fault is causing these events to become as common as gate changes.


-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-06-29 00:29:30 and read 9249 times.

honestly, it's only a matter of time until one of these situations turns into a riot, or a passenger pulling the emergency exit handle. i know i would be tempted.

you simply cannot "imprison" a hundred people and expect it to go smoothly. the airlines need to come up with a way to get people back to the terminal.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-29 00:35:05 and read 9161 times.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
you simply cannot "imprison" a hundred people and expect it to go smoothly. the airlines need to come up with a way to get people back to the terminal.

Sad thing is that it would appear they dont want to incurr the cost and that truely is sad..

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2007-06-29 00:44:18 and read 9033 times.

Was that a CRJ? I bet the passengers could not even walk off the plane when it landed. I spent 4 hours on a CRJ-900, and I almost needed an ambulance to help me get up.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FURUREFA
Posted 2007-06-29 00:45:28 and read 9033 times.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)?

I think he has a French accent. He seemed to be doing his best with an uncooperative company!
Matt

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Movingtin
Posted 2007-06-29 01:08:04 and read 8737 times.

It's amazing how far out of touch with reality some of the peeps on this board are!

You want congress to fix the problem? I agree, after working in this industry for 19 yrs, I would love to see them re-regulate the industry! Allocate routes, flight times, and set the profit margins. you want airlines to reduce their flights? fine, the DOT can set up every airlines schedule, And the customers can pay accordingly! You want full meal service in every class? no problem. What else? 10 Flight Attendants, guaranteed arrival times, Spare A/C for those pesky Mechanicals? No problem! Please hurry up Congress, I am tired of taking pay-cuts because people think they are ENTITLED to fly first class around the world for $99, get there early and still have a few A/C waiting with engines running, spare crew on board, and 25 busses standing by just in case. While we are at it, we should get 1 free flt for every $99 trip we pay for!

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: GQfluffy
Posted 2007-06-29 01:12:45 and read 8698 times.

You people amaze me. You people are bitching about people being "held hostage", airlines purposely doing this, not blaming ATC, not blaming weather, just purely turning around and blame blame blame the airline and us "idiot rampers". Your supposed fix all is to get more crews, change departure/arrival times, buy more aircraft, make sure everything on every single aircraft is operational at all times, and maybe freeze hell over. This is an impossible situation folks. And it's getting worse because the flying public these days isn't willing to put up with ANYTHING anymore. Sure, fares have gone up, flights are a bit more oversold, there is less capacity on the routes, amenities have been taken away in the sake of trying to save money so a fare can stay down, etc etc. This all sucks, and it does lead to passenger complaints. But if airlines were to incorporate things that have been mentioned in this thread, it wouldn't fix a damned thing. It would send most airlines into the ground, close up shop, and be done forever. Airlines had more aircraft on the routes, had more crews to hopefully avoid crews running up their hours, oh, and with more aircraft, there was more of a chance of having a tail-swap just in case something wasn't working right on one particular aircraft scheduled to go out. Then 9/11 came, and the soaring fuel prices. Airlines had to cut back to still offer affordable fares. But is the public grateful? No, it isn't good enough for you guys. You want the world handed to you on a platter for 2 cents.

Ok, so, this aircraft was trying to get out, got stuck in a line of traffic (thanks to Ground and ATC), and sat there, and sat there, and sat there some more. They can't move, can't ask for clearance to another hopefully active runway, because they already know what the response will be. So, they are doing what they are supposed to be doing; trying to get a plane full of paying passengers to their destination. But they can't move, because no other flights are moving. Oops, 4 hours later the crew hits time, they're done. But this isn't ATC or WX, this is the airline's fault? Bullshit. Pure, udder BS. But no, I'm wrong, because airlines should bankrupt themselves to make sure these very rare occurrences never happen.  Yeah sure

Maybe fares should go back up, like they were in 70's and 80's. That way most of us Americans can't afford to fly, so we won't have to hear about how wronged we were by an airline who was just trying to get us from point A to point B.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-29 01:17:54 and read 8650 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
The response given was that the airline is in part to blame for maxing out its fleet, at an overextended airport such as JFK.

AND, ATC (i.e. the Government) is in part to blame for not creating a system that is able to meet the capacity demands put upon it. That is why you have the 3 hour taxi times at JFK.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
The aircraft had a mechanical which was said time and time again throughout the video.

Ok, point made. However, they also took a delay because the weather impacted operations and, again, the infrastructure in place (ATC/Government) couldn't handle demand and weather. Again, I blame ATC/Government.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
What is ludicrous is that the blame being posted by yourself doesn't fall in part on the airline for maximization of fleet resources, in a market that is extremely time sensitive. Blaming ATC for the problems that have happened over the last week is totally false.

No, I blame the government which, again, has not created conditions whereby business can thrive. I do not blame the airline for trying to maximize its resources so that extra airplanes and crews are not sitting on the ground waiting to be used as spares, and instead are flying and generating revenue for the company. I think blaming the government and ATC for consistenly not having the infrastructure in place to meet the growing demand and increased capacity over the last 10 years is appropriate.

You do know that the government runs ATC, right?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-29 01:20:50 and read 8616 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 34):
no means are mechanical, fleet maximization, or crew timing outs the fault of the ATC.

1) I will cede the point on mechanicals.

2) What do you define "fleet maximization" as?

3) Is it the fault of ATC when a crew times out after pushing back, starting the clock, and taxiing out on a flight that should only last them, say, and hour, only to hold on the ground for 4 hours because ATC is too backed up to handle traffic on a clear day? So crew scheduling then should build a window of time into each rotation in case the ATC system shuts down, like it did two weeks ago?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2007-06-29 01:21:11 and read 8616 times.

I agree, but also the airlines are at least partially at fault here - knowing the capacity of JFK throwing flight after flight after flight onto its congested runways.
-A

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2007-06-29 01:37:51 and read 8445 times.

I give the first Captain a lot of respect for addressing his passengers face to face.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Vega9000
Posted 2007-06-29 01:41:22 and read 8395 times.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
honestly, it's only a matter of time until one of these situations turns into a riot, or a passenger pulling the emergency exit handle. i know i would be tempted.

 checkmark 

Agreed. This is like watching an accident happen in slow motion. You know it's going to happen, that people will probably be hurt, or somebody is going to have a heart attack or a seizure, that a media circus ensues, then to a public outcry, and leading to Congress taking some sort of measure that is harsher than it needs to be. I just hope it doesn't happen to a child.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
And it's getting worse because the flying public these days isn't willing to put up with ANYTHING anymore

Right. How dare you complain for being stuck in a metal tube with 200 other people for a mere 7 hours with no food. Crybabies...  Yeah sure

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
Your supposed fix all is to get more crews, change departure/arrival times, buy more aircraft, make sure everything on every single aircraft is operational at all times, and maybe freeze hell over

No. Just let the people get off the plane after, say, 3 hours...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2007-06-29 02:21:19 and read 8028 times.

I think this is more a matter of Shuttle America just being a disorganized mess. I flew them back and forth to Dallas. The crews were nice people, and seemed to be trying, but they gave off a whiff of disorganization that wasn't promising. On the JFK-DFW leg, we missed the departure time when we didn't have to due to pretty-poor planning: they knew they'd be loading displaced pax aboard, but didn't start loading them until a good 15 minutes after everyone else was seated and the door was going to be closed. Then, of course, we had to get in a line that was longer because of the delay. On the return, they didn't load enough fuel to take into account deteriorating conditions in the New York area, and we had to land along the way for more fuel when facing just a 30-minute circling hold.

The pilot bathroom breaks on the flight back were just asinine. The crew goes out of service and blocks the aisle with the drink cart so one pilot can pee. One f/a joins the other pilot in the cockpit. Then the process is repeated with the other pilot. This time the pilot (the captain I think) blabbed and blabbed and blabbed with the f/a, just standing in front of us. I timed it at more than 20 minutes, IIRC. Meanwhile, the other f/a is blabbing in the cockpit with the other pilot. Sorry, guys, how about getting me a drink. "Ding." "Sorry, there's no service right now for security reasons." Riiiiight. It was like children playing at running an airline. "Dude, we get to hit on the f/a's!!"

I had assumed that my experience might have been the exception. From all we're reading on this thread, it doesn't sound like it.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Evan767
Posted 2007-06-29 02:22:38 and read 8011 times.

Stay away from JFK. Always. Unless you are forced to, simply don't connect through JFK, it's a bitch. I really wish that airports CVG and ATL would just swap. Then CVG would be a perfect hub.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-29 02:42:10 and read 7830 times.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 43):
the airlines are at least partially at fault here - knowing the capacity of JFK throwing flight after flight after flight onto its congested runways.

Fair point, but which airline is going to be the first to cede market share in an effort to reduce capacity? No one airline is going to unilaterally disarm.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 46):
The pilot bathroom breaks on the flight back were just asinine. The crew goes out of service and blocks the aisle with the drink cart so one pilot can pee. One f/a joins the other pilot in the cockpit. Then the process is repeated with the other pilot. This time the pilot (the captain I think) blabbed and blabbed and blabbed with the f/a, just standing in front of us. I timed it at more than 20 minutes, IIRC. Meanwhile, the other f/a is blabbing in the cockpit with the other pilot. Sorry, guys, how about getting me a drink. "Ding." "Sorry, there's no service right now for security reasons." Riiiiight. It was like children playing at running an airline. "Dude, we get to hit on the f/a's!!"

So, lemme get this right: you're judging them because on an over 2 hour flight the pilots used the restroom and stretched their legs?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: GQfluffy
Posted 2007-06-29 02:54:30 and read 7740 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 48):
So, lemme get this right: you're judging them because on an over 2 hour flight the pilots used the restroom and stretched their legs?

Next you'll hear that the pilots got to stretch their legs but the passengers supposedly didn't...  hissyfit 

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Tockeyhockey
Posted 2007-06-29 03:01:41 and read 7686 times.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
You people amaze me. You people are bitching about people being "held hostage", airlines purposely doing this, not blaming ATC, not blaming weather, just purely turning around and blame blame blame the airline and us "idiot rampers". Your supposed fix all is to get more crews, change departure/arrival times, buy more aircraft, make sure everything on every single aircraft is operational at all times, and maybe freeze hell over. This is an impossible situation folks.

it is an impossible situation because the airlines have allowed it to become an impossible situation. there is no reason for this much of a breakdown. there needs to be a rule -- after 2 hours on the tarmac, the flight is canceled, or something similar.

what i love is the attitude that "you get what you pay for", that flyers deserve bad service. that's just nuts. if i were at mcdonalds and i ordered a big mac and i got something that had been spit on, i did NOT get what i paid for and i would expect the problem to be resolved. but somehow, when i pay for a flight that doesn't fly, i'm supposed to sit back and accept it?

the attitude that i hear from airline employees on this site really scares me. if the average employee really believes that we deserve to be trapped on a plane for 7 hours, and that we have no right to blame the airline, then service really has dropped to record lows.

i ask those who defend the airlines in this case: should we "expect" to get to where we are going in a reasonable time? or is that too much for you to guarantee?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-29 03:35:13 and read 7395 times.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 50):
i ask those who defend the airlines in this case: should we "expect" to get to where we are going in a reasonable time? or is that too much for you to guarantee?

You absolutely should expect it. However, when factors outside the airline's control (weather, ATC delays) cause the delay, you also should be reasonable in placing blame.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-06-29 03:50:47 and read 7251 times.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 20):
You can't outlaw bad weather, but you can outlaw overcapacity scheduling, and in my opinion, that would be a great start. I can't think of a single reason why airlines ought to be allowed to schedule more flights in and out of an airport than the runway capacity and landing procedures allow for.

Runway capacity is a function of weather and for very bad weather the capacity is zero. The airport closes. The ramp workers have to stay inside for the risk of being thunder-zapped. Where should the bar be set then? There will always be disruptions to air travel that close an airport and if the airport has dozens of operations per hour, there will be mayhem.

That said, I do agree incentives (notice that is different from not allowing) should be placed on scheduling larger aircraft. I would like to see landing fees readjusted for smaller aircraft that consume runway time in the larger airports.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2007-06-29 05:05:31 and read 6743 times.

Uh, can you really not get food at JFK after 9 pm? I find that VERY hard to believe. After 5 or so hours on the plane, I would have been very upset to have been lied to so directly.

When will people learn that the truth is SO much more appreciated by passengers. Just tell us the darn truth like you NEVER had any intention to go to the terminal to buy food and that the new captain wasn't in the airport. It is the lies that make bad situations so much worse...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2007-06-29 05:05:56 and read 6742 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 48):
So, lemme get this right: you're judging them because on an over 2 hour flight the pilots used the restroom and stretched their legs?

No. I'm faulting the one guy for spending twenty minutes wagging his johnson at the flight attendant while we sat there unserved.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: ArcrftLvr
Posted 2007-06-29 08:03:57 and read 5841 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside. How does one get to a bus? By walking outside. The ramp is closed for their safety. If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued, everyone would be saying they should have been left on the plane. There is no way to make everyone happy.

Give me a break...Did you watch the video? I didn't see any lighting...In fact, I didn't even see any rain. You have a point if the ramp was closed, but my suspicion is that the ramp wasn't closed. The bottom line is the airline failed. It sounded like the F/A and flight crew did everything possible. My assumption is that the dispatch folks and ATC were not communicating with any sense of urgency. What a joke Comair is...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2007-06-29 08:06:21 and read 5823 times.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 55):
You have a point if the ramp was closed, but my suspicion is that the ramp wasn't closed.

Ramps were closed off and on throughout that evening, so I was guessing there.

Edit: Spelling  Sad

[Edited 2007-06-29 08:07:23]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Transair737
Posted 2007-06-29 09:11:33 and read 5667 times.

This is brutal. Anytime there is delay where the airline knows they will not be departing for more then 1 or 2 hours passengers should be allowed back into the terminal. There is no excuse for this, there are options. Two years ago in YYZ there was a thunderstorn heading right over the airport. Due to the line up of aircraft waiting to depart we did not board our aircraft, we waited in the boarding area for 2 hours. What a great move by Air Canada. Everyone understood the situation and stayed close to the gate as we did not know when boarding would occur but it was much more comfortable than being on the aircraft. Also around 1999 I was on a Canadian Airlines flight out of Edmonton. We were on board but told the was an air traffic delay of about 45 to 90 minutes. They allowed us to deplane and use the facilities in the terminal. I am not comparing it JFK, but being stuck in a plane on the ground just plain sucks anywhwere. There should be some sort of regulation limiting the amount of time passengers can be kept on an aircraft on the ground.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Movingtin
Posted 2007-06-29 13:48:43 and read 5576 times.

Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 45):
No. Just let the people get off the plane after, say, 3 hours...

Ok, please explain exactly how you are going to make that happen!? I want to know what you are going to do when, after" 3 hours", and Ground will not give you taxi clearance because the ramp is closed? You going to just open the door and say walk? you going to just order up a couple of busses and have then drive out to the A/C and empty the plane? you going to break the rules of the TSA and airport authority and just taxi back somewhere? You going to risk losing your FAA licenses (livelihood) because the TSA decided your actions are a security threat? Please explain how you are going to make your flight the highest priority when every other flight on the ground is in the same boat?

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 46):
The pilot bathroom breaks on the flight back were just asinine. The crew goes out of service and blocks the aisle with the drink cart so one pilot can pee. One f/a joins the other pilot in the cockpit. Then the process is repeated with the other pilot. This time the pilot (the captain I think) blabbed and blabbed and blabbed with the f/a, just standing in front of us. I timed it at more than 20 minutes, IIRC. Meanwhile, the other f/a is blabbing in the cockpit with the other pilot. Sorry, guys, how about getting me a drink. "Ding." "Sorry, there's no service right now for security reasons." Riiiiight. It was like children playing at running an airline. "Dude, we get to hit on the f/a's!!"

Grow up! its ignorant posts like this that are bringing this forum down. They are following TSA rules for a pilot leaving the cockpit. Do you expect us to believe that you timed them for 20 min while they talked,? BS. I guess you went to the cockpit to observe the other pilot and F/A "Blabbing"?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Luisca
Posted 2007-06-29 14:15:25 and read 5539 times.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines here? People drive in rain all the time, people walk in rain all the time. If you can't fly in rain, then get the people off the plane. It is just not that difficult of a concept to grasp.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
What happened on that plane was nothing short of holding people hostage. If the passengers wanted to deboard the aircraft they should have been allowed to. The excuse of no gate space is a bunch of garbage. Air Stairs are readily available at JFK, as are mobile lounges, buses, and transports to the terminal for stranded passengers, as were on this flight. The problem is that airlines max out the equipment to a point that one plane out of service causes the entire deck of cards to crumble.

Airlines cant risk the liability of having people on the ramp or using stairs, especially in bad weather situations, what happens when 80 year old grandma falls down the stairs or when lightning strikes as passengers are boarding the bus to the terminal? or crazy suicidal wacko runs into a running engine or prop and their families sue Delta for 80 million for negligence because they should have used a gate or not let them of the plane...

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
And by that I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):

Now, that would be something positive - but not a fix to most bad weather meltdowns.

Your kidding right? introduce user fees and you will kill General Aviation, the source of most of the new pilots out there. If airlines are having a hard time crewing flights now imagine when new pilot training runs dry. Besides the bill is dead, it doesn't have the support necessary in congress.

What we need is a liability waiver to allow passengers out of the airplanes in these situations until the flight is ready to leave for real, tell people that they can either sit on the plane for 7 hours or sign a paper that says that they or their families can not sue if they fall down the stairs, get hit by lightning or run into a prop.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2007-06-29 14:30:26 and read 5508 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 51):
You absolutely should expect it. However, when factors outside the airline's control (weather, ATC delays) cause the delay, you also should be reasonable in placing blame.

The problem is that even under perfect conditions, JFK routinely suffers from delays in the afternoon/evening. This is the fault of the airlines for overscheduling the airport. Then, when conditions deteriorate (weather/ATC...things beyond airline control), the already poor conditions snowball into massive delays.

It's not the government's fault when an airline chooses to "meet demand" by flying 10 CRJ's a day on a route that could easily be served by 5 737's.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2007-06-29 15:04:37 and read 5447 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 60):
It's not the government's fault when an airline chooses to "meet demand" by flying 10 CRJ's a day on a route that could easily be served by 5 737's.

The JFK-DFW market is served with 3 E-170's. If demand is such that they are only willing to provide at least some flexibility to their customers by putting smaller aircraft onto the route, then so be it. Otherwise, this market could be operated by 2 737's, and in the end, AA will be the one dominating the market anyhow with 25+ flights per day with 757 and 767's. Not to mention the number of flights CO has out ot EWR. Where are they going to get those 737's though? The equipment they have is already stretched.

Besides, reducing 3 E170's to 2 737's to DFW is certainly going to relieve the demand problem at JFK.  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Vega9000
Posted 2007-06-29 15:11:44 and read 5424 times.

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 58):
you going to just order up a couple of busses and have then drive out to the A/C and empty the plane

Me? Noooo! That's something just sooooo dangerous to do at an airport, it raises so many "security" and "liability" issues, that from what I learned today from the people that work at the airport, it's right next to impossible. Better to just let the people and the kids just locked inside the plane for the amount of time needed for the airport staff to resolve their issues. If it's 7 hours, so be it, if it's 14 hours, so be it. Forget about the food, if they have A/C, they should all sing in joy and praise the Lord. But hey, what do you expect for $99?

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 58):
Please explain how you are going to make your flight the highest priority when every other flight on the ground is in the same boat

Humm. So you're telling me that this wasn't an isolated incident? That in fact, all the planes on the ground had their passengers locked up for seven hours? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that it was that bad...

But seriously, from what I understand, I'm sure that deboarding the passengers in these kinds of situations, in a crowded airport, in the middle of the rain is not easy, and it raises all kinds of serious security issues. But let's not forget the big picture here: It's inhuman, immoral and defies all common sense to forget that inside the tin cans are real people that can not be subject to this kind of treatment, and just let them be there without doing anything about it, no matter what the rules are.
But just don't tell me that it's impossible, and that there is no solution. Because if nobody in the entire airline industry can come up with a solution for such an obvious situation, then it's time to call the legislators, not to mention the lawyers.

[Edited 2007-06-29 15:13:23]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-06-29 15:26:46 and read 5377 times.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 59):
Your kidding right? introduce user fees and you will kill General Aviation,

I am sorry but that is blatantly false. I have a corporate pilot in the family and I read the AOPA magazine regularly. The vitriolic coming from the G.A. folks is filled with nonsense. The last AOPA magazine I read... I was not rolling on the floor laughing because their seriousness concerned me. They said user fees are unfair because G.A. only flies on good weather and non-congested airspace.

In an environment where we may have explosive growth of 4-passenger air-taxis sharing airspace with 150-seaters, user fees make sense. The current system would be subsidizing them. It is like building a highway and collecting tolls from buses but not from cars - akin to the LOV lane concept, special free lane for low occupancy vehicles.

In order to claim user fees will kill G.A. you have to prove the cost will overwhelm them. Be my guest, go ahead and prove it.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2007-06-29 15:29:24 and read 5369 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 61):
The JFK-DFW market is served with 3 E-170's. If demand is such that they are only willing to provide at least some flexibility to their customers by putting smaller aircraft onto the route, then so be it.

I wasn't speaking directly to the JFK-DFW route, but on a larger scale of airlines flying high-frequency high-volume routes with small aircraft.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 61):
Where are they going to get those 737's though? The equipment they have is already stretched.

That's not the government's fault nor the passenger's fault. The airlines choose what aircraft they operate and the airlines chose to overbuy RJ's and neglect their mainline fleets for many years.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2007-06-29 15:41:51 and read 5342 times.

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 58):
Grow up! its ignorant posts like this that are bringing this forum down. They are following TSA rules for a pilot leaving the cockpit. Do you expect us to believe that you timed them for 20 min while they talked,? BS. I guess you went to the cockpit to observe the other pilot and F/A "Blabbing"?

Sigh. Yeah. I'm "ignorant" and I'm "bringing the forum down". Riiiiiight.

What I'm telling you is that Shuttle America appears to be disorganized and poorly managed. I had thought that the things that I saw might just be peculiar to my flight. What I realize now is that they are not. The pilot-pee thing was not a problem because of the security method employed. It was a problem because, having activated the security protocol and shut down service, the crew displayed (as the airline had basically done throughout) total disdain towards the comfort and convenience of its passengers while the crew chatted amongst themselves. Passengers besides myself wanted to be served in the 30-ish minute window and were also refused. All that was happening was that the crew was relaxing amongst itself. This plainly wasn't the norm, because it didn't happen on the other flight. But obviously nobody cared that it did happen. On a relatively-short flight like that, shutting down service for a total of over 1/2 hour for crew peeing is not the norm, and is not the service standard at any other airline that I have flown.

You can make all the excuses that you want for these guys, but the bottom line is that service and professionalism weren't a priority on the flight that I reference. That you can take to the bank.

As to timing them, yeah, I did notice the time. I'm on a packed-to-the-gills-because-they-cancelled-an-earlier-flight E-Jet. There's no IFE. We're way late. I've read the paper. I've done some work. They're standing facing the unserved passengers, talking away to each other. He's obviously hitting on her, which my girlfriend also noticed. He actually even said, "Why don't you come up front?" (I think the protocol probably was for the pilots to switch, but not necessarily for the aisle-blocker and cockpit rider to switch.) Under these circumstances, yeah, I noticed the event and I noticed the time involved.

EDIT: So we're clear: one guy peed and returned without stopping to chat, for a total out-of-service time of under 5 minutes; the other guy peed and stopped to chat for at least 20 minutes, for an approximate total time of .5 hours. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened if there had been an exec or a sup aboard.

[Edited 2007-06-29 15:53:00]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2007-06-29 15:46:55 and read 5323 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 64):
That's not the government's fault nor the passenger's fault. The airlines choose what aircraft they operate and the airlines chose to overbuy RJ's and neglect their mainline fleets for many years.

A lot of mainline aircraft have been retired after 9/11 because of lack of passenger demand (plus other things related to their age, but that's not important here.) In order for the airlines to keep the markets they had, smaller aircraft were needed. It's not over-buying if A) you needto right-size the equipment to the market at hand, and B) buying bigger aircraft would neglect many markets becuase of the demand and backlog for those aircraft.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FLYGUY767
Posted 2007-06-29 15:59:04 and read 5284 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 53):
Uh, can you really not get food at JFK after 9 pm? I find that VERY hard to believe.

The announcement about no food after 9pm is totally false. For example late evening after 9pm you have Air France, British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Emirates, Etihad, Cathay Pacific, American Airlines, El Al, and other all leaving later than 9pm. It was a false statement, and was yet another lie told to the passengers held aboard the flight to DFW.

Quoting Transair737 (Reply 57):
Anytime there is delay where the airline knows they will not be departing for more then 1 or 2 hours passengers should be allowed back into the terminal.

 checkmark   checkmark 

100% Agreed - Odds are that Delta/Shuttle America was well aware of the impending problem, remember the aircraft had a mechanical issue which is what spurred the delay in the first place. The airline wanted to push the flight off of the blocks as close to ontime so as to show a timely departure. It is greed at a very high form.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 59):
Airlines cant risk the liability of having people on the ramp or using stairs, especially in bad weather situations, what happens when 80 year old grandma falls down the stairs or when lightning strikes as passengers are boarding the bus to the terminal?

Oh Please... What about when air stairs are used daily at airports around the World such as CDG, MXP, PHL, LGB, and others. Are they not to be allowed off of the plane due to rain?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 64):
I wasn't speaking directly to the JFK-DFW route, but on a larger scale of airlines flying high-frequency high-volume routes with small aircraft.

 checkmark   checkmark 

100% Agreed - This is a system wide problem throughout the United States.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 64):
That's not the government's fault nor the passenger's fault. The airlines choose what aircraft they operate and the airlines chose to overbuy RJ's and neglect their mainline fleets for many years

 checkmark   checkmark 

100% Agreed - Remember the CRJ/ERJ buying frenzy was in overdrive after 9-11, when airlines wanted smaller aircraft so that they could insure the flights would be fuller. Thus they could expidite the retirement of older domestic aircraft. This has become evident as many of the older UA, DL, and AA equipment that went to pasture after 9-11, are now flown by smaller aircraft at over-redundant frequencies.

Now airlines are faced with too few seats on the CRJ or ERJ, and in turn are having to put 3-4 CRJ or ERJ to one 757. It is a problem of overcrowding in the United States, not the ATC system. This problem was created by and needs to be solved by the airlines, not the passengers, and not the ATC system. The airlines need to sort out this mountain of problems they have created, and it should not come on the back of passengers.

-JD

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: OOer
Posted 2007-06-29 16:15:06 and read 5249 times.

Yesterday I worked flight DL517 from LGA to ATL and we were running about 15 mins late. I am happy to say that Jim Whitehurst(Delta COO) was on our flight, when we got a chance to talk to him we asked him what he was doing in NYC. He replied with "Well, we want to win in NYC. But we have to fix the huge mess that it is! So we were up here talking with the port authority on how we can improve our operation." So, we are working on fixing the problem. Unfortunately what is happening is NYC in regards to the delays and everything else is VERY BAD!!!! I am not passing the blame to anyone or anything, but we are trying to fix it. Not just us here at DL, but every airline that flies into NYC has the same problem! Unfortunately it does seem as the situation is a bit worse with the regionals...and hopefully that is being dealt with as well.


Fly safe!

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2007-06-29 16:50:18 and read 5189 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 56):
Ramps were closed off and on throughout that evening, so I was guessing there.

How was the ramp closed? The new crew got on and off the jet a few times, not to mention gate agents bringing out paperwork.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-06-29 17:50:04 and read 5105 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside.

That's pretty pitiful, really - let's screw up 3 million passengers because there was a lightning strike in Hoboken. Come on, live a little - walk outside while it's raining, ooooh !

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued,

Hhaha - love to see THAT thread on Non-Av - pax sues because they got hit by a cone !

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 52):
The ramp workers have to stay inside for the risk of being thunder-zapped

I can't remember how many times I walked across the tarmac at JNB to catch a domestic flight with a typical Highveld monster thunderstorm raging away, blowing everyone's umbrella inside out, everyone dripping wet. The only reason they'd stop boarding is when the hailstones got bigger than golf balls. One time at PPT I ran across the tarmac to board an NZ flight, the crew had closed the cabin door to keep the rain out, I had to bang on the window to get let in. And yet, miraculously, I survived ! How come US operators are such wimps ?

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 58):
you going to break the rules of the TSA and airport authority and just taxi back somewhere?



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 58):
They are following TSA rules

Clearly these are what is known as "stupid" rules, and can be ignored. So what if you annoy that TSA, what are they going to do, shoot everyone as they walk across the tarmac ? Get real - these are extraordinary circumstances, rules can be waived.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Movingtin
Posted 2007-06-29 18:35:46 and read 5063 times.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 70):
Clearly these are what is known as "stupid" rules, and can be ignored. So what if you annoy that TSA, what are they going to do, shoot everyone as they walk across the tarmac ? Get real - these are extraordinary circumstances, rules can be waived.

Really! what a revelation. So , If i deem it a "stupid rule" I can just ignore it? WoW ,life will be so much easier now.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2007-06-29 20:31:46 and read 4968 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 66):
A lot of mainline aircraft have been retired after 9/11 because of lack of passenger demand (plus other things related to their age, but that's not important here.) In order for the airlines to keep the markets they had, smaller aircraft were needed. It's not over-buying if A) you needto right-size the equipment to the market at hand, and B) buying bigger aircraft would neglect many markets becuase of the demand and backlog for those aircraft.

What you say is true, but it only explains part of the reason carriers went on an RJ buying binge. Keep in mind the binge started BEFORE 9/11. Many of the carriers wanted RJ's not because of lagging demand, but as a cost-reduction and revenue enhancement tool. They figured they could lower costs by outsourcing both flight and ground ops to cheaper regional affiliates. They also figured they could increase revenues by offering greater frequencies which the higher-yield business pax like.

While RJ's did have some of these positive results, the negative consequences of the RJ buying binge have been far greater than expected. And one of those negative consequences is additional congestion at many large airports like JFK.

Of course, I'm not saying the RJ is the sole cause of trouble at JFK. Aging and out-of-date ATC infrastructure/systems, out-of-date ground facilities and weather are all factors, too.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: ArcrftLvr
Posted 2007-06-29 20:54:39 and read 4935 times.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 70):
How come US operators are such wimps ?

Lawyers & Lawsuits.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: CO777DAL
Posted 2007-06-30 00:39:35 and read 4796 times.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 59):
Airlines cant risk the liability of having people on the ramp or using stairs, especially in bad weather situations, what happens when 80 year old grandma falls down the stairs or when lightning strikes as passengers are boarding the bus to the terminal? or crazy suicidal wacko runs into a running engine or prop and their families sue Delta for 80 million for negligence because they should have used a gate or not let them of the plane...

Someone needs to enlighten ½ of the world. I can not tell you how many airports I have been to that did not have jetways. I have walked across the ramp in 100 plus degree heat, in the snow, and left 1st class in a suit and walk across the ramp in the pouring rain being completely drenched from head to toe by the time I got to the terminal. Thousands of people do this everyday and a lot of that is in 3rd world Countries. If they can do it without the above mention problems, surely we Americans being a 1st world Country and all, should be able to walk from the plane to the terminal without incident.




New York hasn’t been the only place having delays this week. I had to go San Antonio and Houston this week and could have driven back from both faster than the flight. Tuesday alone I had 4 boarding passes for IAH-DAL. CO has 16 ERJ flights from IAH-DAL and from 3:30 to about 7 they leave about every 30 mins. Well they cancelled 3 of them, the rest were completely full and running hours behind. My flight was delayed for 5 hours.

CO boarded us on the plane, and the AC was not working and after close to 45 minutes, the F/A came on said something along the lines, ‘Ladies and Gentlemen this does not make sense, we are not going to keep you on the plane when we have no idea when we are going to be able to leave. Please gather your all belongings and deplane. When we get a better idea of when we will be able to fly to Dallas, they gate agent will begin boarding.’ At least they let us off the plane. After another hour we were finally able to board. From the gate in IAH to the gate at DAL took 2 hours.

Our 38 minutes of flying time took over 1 hour and 30mins as we flew all over Texas before landing at DAL with lightning and it raining cats and dogs. I was surprised we actually landed with all the weather. It was great we landed but there were 3 CO ERJs at DAL. CO only has TWO gates at DAL, so we had to wait because there was not a spot for us. So many of my IAH-DAL flights have been late in the afternoon and I can’t keep track. Its ridiculous CO has all these 30 minutes ERJ departures to DAL especially when earlier flight arrives after a later scheduled flight. Just combine a few ERJs into 737’s and be done with it already. Wright Amendment had changed to allow thru-ticketing so that is not an issue any more.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-30 01:55:38 and read 4712 times.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 59):
Your kidding right? introduce user fees and you will kill General Aviation, the source of most of the new pilots out there. If airlines are having a hard time crewing flights now imagine when new pilot training runs dry. Besides the bill is dead, it doesn't have the support necessary in congress.

Good to see you're working off the AOPA talking points. Conveniently you, and they, leave out that under the proposal recreational pilots of piston-engine aircraft would be exempt from user fees. The fact of that matter is that general and business aviation benefit from an ATC system that is almost entirely paid for by airlines. User fees should be based on airport arrivals and departures, and the time a flight spends in the ATC system. The current funding mechanism is ticket taxes for airlines and fuel taxes for GA.

The fact of the matter is that the airlines paid $9 billion -- or 94% -- of the cost of ATC services in Fiscal Year 2004 (th elast year they have metrics on) and used 69% of ATC services that year. General and business aviation paid 6% despite using 24% of ATC services, with military and government flights accounting for a further 7% of ATC services.

Is that fair?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 60):
It's not the government's fault when an airline chooses to "meet demand" by flying 10 CRJ's a day on a route that could easily be served by 5 737's.

No, but government has a duty to ensure that the capacity meets the demand on the system. And last time I checked it was a deregeulated market...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 67):
Remember the CRJ/ERJ buying frenzy was in overdrive after 9-11, when airlines wanted smaller aircraft so that they could insure the flights would be fuller.

"Smaller aircraft to ensure the flights would be fuller?" Try they went to the RJ's because they didn;t know that the pre 9/11 demand would ever come back, and they needed to be in a position to meet whatever demand was still out there. Made sense then to downsize, and fortunately the demand did return.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2007-06-30 02:46:46 and read 4640 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
No, but government has a duty to ensure that the capacity meets the demand on the system. And last time I checked it was a deregeulated market...

True. But is it also the government's job to try and satisfy artificial demand created by airlines flying high frequency RJ service when a larger plane would suffice?

You say it's a deregulated market (and it is), but when the airlines do something dumb and flood an airport with too many small planes, then you cry for gov't help. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too.

And exactly is the gov't supposed to do when an airport can't be further expanded (like LGA)?

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Luisca
Posted 2007-06-30 03:06:18 and read 4618 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 67):
Oh Please... What about when air stairs are used daily at airports around the World such as CDG, MXP, PHL, LGB, and others. Are they not to be allowed off of the plane due to rain?



Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 74):
Someone needs to enlighten ½ of the world. I can not tell you how many airports I have been to that did not have jetways. I have walked across the ramp in 100 plus degree heat, in the snow, and left 1st class in a suit and walk across the ramp in the pouring rain being completely drenched from head to toe by the time I got to the terminal. Thousands of people do this everyday and a lot of that is in 3rd world Countries. If they can do it without the above mention problems, surely we Americans being a 1st world Country and all, should be able to walk from the plane to the terminal without incident.

In what other country in the world do people win millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on themselves after they put it in their crotches?

America is the most lawyer happy country in the world and until this doesn't change airlines will continue to do this.

NUFF SAID.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
Good to see you're working off the AOPA talking points. Conveniently you, and they, leave out that under the proposal recreational pilots of piston-engine aircraft would be exempt from user fees. The fact of that matter is that general and business aviation benefit from an ATC system that is almost entirely paid for by airlines. User fees should be based on airport arrivals and departures, and the time a flight spends in the ATC system. The current funding mechanism is ticket taxes for airlines and fuel taxes for GA

Whats to stop them from charging pistons after that, if the User fee proposal had passed, it would have open the floodgates to the kind of taxation that GA sees in Europe, were it has died a painful death.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-30 03:28:15 and read 4587 times.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 77):
Whats to stop them from charging pistons after that

What's to stop them from truning around and putting it all back on the airlines?

And, aside from the fact that your original post was disingenuous, there was widespread agreement on Capitol Hill that piston driven airplanes should not be subject to the fee because most of the time they fly in the VFR system, the time they spend in the IFR system is negligible, because a compromise needed to be worked out, and because we didn't want to discourage people from getting into GA and learning to fly.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 77):
if the User fee proposal had passed, it would have open the floodgates to the kind of taxation that GA sees in Europe, were it has died a painful death.

A specious argument. FIrst off, in Europe most times you're dealing with a PRIVATIZED ATC system, which the U.S. does not have. Secondly, the problem in Europe is that, unlike the US, GA flying in the EU is done cross border, which creates a number of issues when you have different countries and different systems keeping track.

AOPA lobbied itself inbetween a rock and a hard place. They made their bed with NBAA and GAMA, whose constituency is nothing more then a bunch of rich corporations flying high performance aircraft. AOPA supports the piston compromise, but their blood oath with NBAA and GAMA has cut their knees out from under them.

The fact of the matter is that in the IFR system, for a controller a blip is a blip is a blip on the scope, be it a 744 or a King Air, or a G-V, or a Pilatus,etc. You pay for what you use in every other modality, and given the stats that I have shown in the previous post you should pay for what you use in this modality.

And make no mistake, FAA reauthorization will pass in the 110th Congress.

[Edited 2007-06-30 03:34:00]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-30 03:35:28 and read 4569 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 72):
Aging and out-of-date ATC infrastructure/systems

Which can be modernized through the new user fee system...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Mir
Posted 2007-06-30 03:39:52 and read 4560 times.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
Airlines had to cut back to still offer affordable fares. But is the public grateful? No, it isn't good enough for you guys. You want the world handed to you on a platter for 2 cents.

That is part of the problem. If fares were higher, airlines could afford to cover better for this kind of thing.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 53):
Uh, can you really not get food at JFK after 9 pm? I find that VERY hard to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised, actually.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 67):
The announcement about no food after 9pm is totally false. For example late evening after 9pm you have Air France, British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Emirates, Etihad, Cathay Pacific, American Airlines, El Al, and other all leaving later than 9pm. It was a false statement, and was yet another lie told to the passengers held aboard the flight to DFW.

All those airlines leave from terminals other than DL's. DL's complex at JFK is abysmal, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the food there closed at 9. T4's shops would still be mostly open, but it would logistically impractical to get food from there. I give the captain (or F/A, whoever it was) a lot of credit for trying, though.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
Good to see you're working off the AOPA talking points. Conveniently you, and they, leave out that under the proposal recreational pilots of piston-engine aircraft would be exempt from user fees.

In exchange for taking it up the ass with fuel taxes. But there have been plenty of threads on this topic, and this one isn't the place to discuss this issue.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-30 03:50:10 and read 4540 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 80):
In exchange for taking it up the ass with fuel taxes.

Not for pistons. And it was someone other then me that suggested Congress get involved in the original problem, leading to the digression.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Alfa75
Posted 2007-06-30 03:52:13 and read 4535 times.

Wow that makes my 1 hour in CLT yesterday with no A/C seem like a walk in the park.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: IAD51FL
Posted 2007-06-30 04:10:25 and read 4506 times.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
It is called Maximization of Crews, and sadly Delta and their renewed image are being killed in the New York market. I have 3 colleagues that were to fly Delta from JFK-LAS, due to the video seen about the ComAir flight they decided to cancel their tickets and rebook onboard Jet Blue. Time is money, to blame ATC for everything is a bunch of crap..

LOL... and I am sure they cancelled their tickets on B6 and then bought tickets on AA.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
backs of the Barbie and Jungle Jets

Barbie Jets look like 737's? If so then yes... they are used alot.

Big version: Width: 360 Height: 230 File size: 77kb
barbie jet


Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 50):
it is an impossible situation because the airlines have allowed it to become an impossible situation. there is no reason for this much of a breakdown. there needs to be a rule -- after 2 hours on the tarmac, the flight is canceled, or something similar.

Ya... lets cancel every flight that is delayed 2+ hours. So then the passengers have another reason to b*tch because so and so airline cancelled their flight and there are no seats available for 2 days.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 53):
Uh, can you really not get food at JFK after 9 pm? I find that VERY hard to believe. After 5 or so hours on the plane, I would have been very upset to have been lied to so directly.

IAD resturants close at 9pm. So its not too far fetched. Even with delays... they still close at 9pm.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2007-06-30 04:26:16 and read 4471 times.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 74):
Our 38 minutes of flying time took over 1 hour and 30mins as we flew all over Texas before landing at DAL with lightning and it raining cats and dogs. I was surprised we actually landed with all the weather. It was great we landed but there were 3 CO ERJs at DAL. CO only has TWO gates at DAL, so we had to wait because there was not a spot for us. So many of my IAH-DAL flights have been late in the afternoon and I can’t keep track. Its ridiculous CO has all these 30 minutes ERJ departures to DAL especially when earlier flight arrives after a later scheduled flight. Just combine a few ERJs into 737’s and be done with it already. Wright Amendment had changed to allow thru-ticketing so that is not an issue any more.

If you mean ExpressJet 2984, that's the goofiest flight routing I've seen in a while... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...4/history/20070627/0319Z/KIAH/KDAL

For those who care

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: CO777DAL
Posted 2007-06-30 08:10:50 and read 4351 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 84):
If you mean ExpressJet 2984, that's the goofiest flight routing I've seen in a while... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B.../KDAL

We were almost as bad. It was this one ExpressJet 2555... sch departure 2:30PM actual depature 7:22PM
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...5/history/20070627/0022Z/KIAH/KDAL

The thunderheads on the storms were way higher than our altitude and went in a solid line for miles and miles. Clearly visible on the right side of the plane.

Dallas-Houston has been a mess this week

[Edited 2007-06-30 08:11:57]

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Qantasclub
Posted 2007-06-30 09:20:12 and read 4300 times.

This is absolutely appalling. I have never had a very good impression of Delta or any of the US majors, but this makes me never EVER want to fly Delta in the future. What a shocking video. What disgusts me is not the fact that delays happen, as we all know, they are a frequent part of air travel in any country, but the way in which the Delta Crew handled this is beyond belief. The announcements were totally unacceptable, unprofessional and downright embarassing for any airline. I'm surprised there wasn't a riot by the end of the 7 hours!
The last time I was in a similar situation was during a snowstorm at LHR awaiting a flight to LAX on board a BA744. Even though we had to wait 6 hours on the ground for the plane to be de-iced, etc, the staff were so much more professional and the situation was handled so much better.

Delta Sucks.

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Positiverate
Posted 2007-06-30 17:46:50 and read 4186 times.

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 86):
but this makes me never EVER want to fly Delta in the future.

If you're judging airlines on the basis of whether they have had an extdended delay, and how they have handled said delay, there's probably few airlines in the US or even globally that you'll ever fly.

That's the problem with absolute statements...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2007-06-30 21:56:01 and read 4088 times.

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 86):
This is absolutely appalling. I have never had a very good impression of Delta or any of the US majors, but this makes me never EVER want to fly Delta in the future.

Ummm...don't you mean Rechautle Ameripubliqua? This flight was operated by Shuttle America, if you weren't aware...

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Qantasclub
Posted 2007-07-01 00:20:55 and read 4010 times.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 87):
there's probably few airlines in the US



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 87):
that you'll ever fly

Correct and exactly the point I am making

Topic: RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2007-07-01 00:25:14 and read 4001 times.

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 89):
Correct and exactly the point I am making

That's okay. Qantas and Ansett don't get get very high marks with many people, either.


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