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Topic: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-27 09:58:37 and read 8248 times.

was about to fly ACC-AMS-MAN yesterday and was denied boarding
Upon booking my ticket with KLM i have checked with KLM that i do not need a shenguen visa to travel with a lebanese passport. i have also asked (while booking ticket over the phone) that its possible to travel with 2 passport, they said not a problem as long as i have a UK visa to fly back, A Ghanaian Visa/Passport to entry for Ghana and my Lebanese passport to transit via Amsterdam.
Flew MAN-AMS-ACC last week No problem at all.
got to airport to check in, was denied boarding. all i was told
You can't travel with 2 passports please step aside, there was NO one there to speak too, ended up going to KL office and KL office said they see no problem why i was denied boarded. back to terminal, NO KL assistant in view, check in closed (alltho i checked in online). we spoke to lady at the checkin counter who was about to leave and radio the passport officer and he simply said i am too busy, don't let him fly.
i went to AZ and they said i can fly with them NO problem however they wanted $2400 O/W.
How come AZ can let u travel but not KL alltho same sheguen visa rules apply?
Before booking my flight i was told by KL no problem. when i asked the check in staff (KL) how i got to Ghana last week then? All i got was. It is not my problem, i told you that you can't fly end of story.
I managed to get myself ticket on ACC-LGW-MAN now (G0/BA).
Am i entitled to any compensation?

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2007-06-27 11:33:49 and read 8107 times.

You often seem to end up in boarding problems, I remember an EK denied boarding drama...
You shouldn't have mentioned the double passport thingie, that might have confused them. Just show the appropriate passport which is the most hasslefree for a certain trip (eg a EU one for travel to the EU, one without Israeli stamps when travelling to some arab countries) and don't mention the other one.
But no idea if you can get compensated. A good travel insurance should also cover problems like these.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-06-27 11:38:00 and read 8089 times.

I would certainly call KLM, tell them what happened....perhaps some one at HQ can help....or where ever customer service is.

As said above, NEVER mention 2 passports -- they get confused.

Always get flight insurance (this is why).

Was KLM willing to simply re book you on AZ as they made a mistake? That's the quickest way if you can get them to do it.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: ANother
Posted 2007-06-27 12:40:34 and read 7952 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 2):
As said above, NEVER mention 2 passports -- they get confused.

I think he had to, I think he is saying that he needed one passport for the AMS transit, and the second for entry into the UK. The first wasn't valid for the UK and the second wasn't valid for the AMS transit.

This isn't 'denied boarding' in the sense of European legislation (Regulation 261/2004) which deals with oversales. In the airlines' conditions of carriage they will reserve the right to REFUSE you if they have a reasonable reason to believe that your documentation is not in order. In your case they may have made a mistake - but I'm not an immigration expert to say if that is the case. As suggest I would contact KLM and explain why you believe they have made a mistake and ask them to refund you the difference between the value of their original ticket (which you did not use) and your new ticket.

Why would the airline do this? Because of the substantial fines (up to GBP5000 per passenger) they incur. They are also required to pay detention costs, and the cost of returning the passenger to their origin point. It is the passenger's responsibility to ensure that their documentation is in order, although the airlines do a lot to inform passengers of what is necessary. But the agent on the ground wasn't willing to take the risk of interpreting your particular situation.

Compensation? I would doubt it - but there may be customer service reasons why they might wish to apologise for any mistake. Be polite but firm.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-06-27 14:05:13 and read 7805 times.

Next time, just don't tell them you have 2 passports - tout simple !

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: JFK787NYC
Posted 2007-06-27 14:12:18 and read 7782 times.

Yes, that was your biggest problem announcing or holding dual-passports.

These workers are dumb idiot's they do not really know what the rules are, He could get fired for doing something like this.

As long as your country that you are actually living in allows dual-citizenship you are allowed to do whatever you want.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-06-27 14:16:58 and read 7767 times.

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
I think he had to, I think he is saying that he needed one passport for the AMS transit, and the second for entry into the UK. The first wasn't valid for the UK and the second wasn't valid for the AMS transit.

In transit between non-Schengen countries (ie. Ghana and the UK) at AMS you don't need a passport at all. You stay inside the customs zone the whole time.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Overlander
Posted 2007-06-27 14:31:37 and read 7715 times.

I would advise you these days not to begin your journey on one passport and complete with it with another.

It can be very convenient on some occasions to do this, thereby avoiding Visa fees etc in some countries, but as you have found out when it goes wrong it can become very costly and time consuming.

With heightened security these days and countries exchanging information on travellers you could have been in worse trouble. Although I was given the proverbial slap on the wrist and told not to do it again, the message was very clear to me.

As to your claim to compensation, I am not an expert, but I never rely on anyone other than myself to check my immigration status when travelling to or transitting other countries.

All the best,

Overlander

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: AIR757200
Posted 2007-06-27 15:46:02 and read 7602 times.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 5):
These workers are dumb idiot's they do not really know what the rules are, He could get fired for doing something like this.



Quoting Overlander (Reply 7):
As to your claim to compensation, I am not an expert, but I never rely on anyone other than myself to check my immigration status when travelling to or transitting other countries.

Well Overlander, it appears you know what you're doing when you travel-- others however, don't. That's why we have sources like TIMATIC to TELL us, as JFK787NYC says, "idiots" whether or not a passenger is holding the proper documents, and if it doesn't fit what TIMATIC instructs us, we can deny you boarding. We usually have problems with US passport holders that are not frequent flyers thinking they can go pretty much anywhere in the world just because they have US passports; and one-way ticket travellers are the biggest offenders.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: YOWza
Posted 2007-06-27 15:47:41 and read 7602 times.

Quoting Soups (Thread starter):
when i asked the check in staff (KL) how i got to Ghana last week then? All i got was. It is not my problem, i told you that you can't fly end of story.

haha that sounds pretty much exactly like the kind of thing that somebody working at Kotoka would say. I do not miss Ghana a bit. As for compensation, you can try but the will pass the buck to KIA who will do NOTHING.

YOWza

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-27 17:13:42 and read 7480 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 2):
Was KLM willing to simply re book you on AZ

They refused to reroute me or even book me on another flight (Even KL few days later)

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
Next time, just don't tell them you have 2 passports - tout simple !

1- I needed the Ghanaian passport to enter the UK
2-I needed the lebanese passport to transit via amsterdam

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 5):
allows dual-citizenship you are allowed to do whatever you want.

Ghana AND Lebanon both accept dual citizenship
I have used both travel documents on many occasions including KL to ACC few times in the past with NO problems.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 9):
buck to KIA

It was actualy KLM passport officer who offloaded me of the flight, Not the check in staff

Alitalia said there is NO PROBLEM using dual passport to fly to UK, However KL refused me to travel. Italy and the netherlands both are shenguen states.
Even the guy at the KL office turn out to be a friend of the familly said there is no problem using 2 passport many have done in the past especially US/Ghana citizens Canada/Ghana citizenships

I will get hold of KL today and see what will happen
I am not looking for any compesation of the new law, just looking for the refund of the flights i had to pay

[Edited 2007-06-27 17:23:09]

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Virginia
Posted 2007-06-27 19:02:26 and read 7356 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 10):

You where checked in by KL in MAN and refused in AMS is this correct.
If checked in (and has nothing to do with 2 passports at all), then THEY are responsible for further transportation.
Very simple because they already accepted you.

And yes then you are being denied boarding because they forgot to check your documents properly.
And yes KL website is very handy with VISA etc.

Let me know what happened,

Virginia

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 8):

TIMATIC is the only handguide/book that we use at airports, but the rules about VISA etc is getting more complicated year after year.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 5):

That's not a fair comment at all see line above.
You ever boarded/checked in 200+ pax and still checking every single document within 2 hours, I can tell you hard job.



Virginia

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: SK601
Posted 2007-06-27 19:04:57 and read 7346 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 10):
just looking for the refund of the flights i had to pay

That's the least KL can do. Too me it's clear that the KL passport guy made the wrong decision. Stupid, but can happen. KL must acknowledge their mistake and refund the unused part of your KL ticket or refund the ACC-LGW-MAN ticket. It would be nice if they offer you something else as compensation (maybe a TCV or extra FF-points), but as a previous poster wrote, they don't have to according to the EU rules.

Good luck, KL customer relations is not easy to deal with, don't give up that easy and don't expect any reply soon.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Jimyvr
Posted 2007-06-27 19:06:35 and read 7325 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 10):
Ghana AND Lebanon both accept dual citizenship

But it doesn't mean all the countries would.

Quoting Soups (Reply 10):

Ghana AND Lebanon both accept dual citizenship
I have used both travel documents on many occasions including KL to ACC few times in the past with NO problems.

I would never take any chances when it comes to documentation just because there were no problems in the past.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-06-27 19:17:01 and read 7297 times.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):
In transit between non-Schengen countries (ie. Ghana and the UK) at AMS you don't need a passport at all. You stay inside the customs zone the whole time.

Not correct, the previous, rather xenophobic, Dutch government introduced new visa rules. Nationals from a number of countries, including some West-African countries, need to apply for a transit visa, even if they stay in the customs zone. This is a stupid rule and is costing KLM quite some customers (especially in Nigeria). A number of organizations in NG discourage their staff travelling with KLM via AMS because of this rule (and the time and money involved in getting the transit visa).

Quoting SK601 (Reply 12):
Quoting Soups (Reply 10):
just looking for the refund of the flights i had to pay

That's the least KL can do. Too me it's clear that the KL passport guy made the wrong decision. Stupid, but can happen. KL must acknowledge their mistake and refund the unused part of your KL ticket or refund the ACC-LGW-MAN ticket.


 checkmark 
There is nothing wrong with travelling with two passports, as long as you have the required visa. Obviously the KL agent made a mistake and somebody should tell him.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-27 19:17:21 and read 7297 times.

Quoting Virginia (Reply 11):
You where checked in by KL in MAN and refused in AMS is this correct.

I checked in MAN, flew MAN-AMS-ACC no problem AT ALL!
Problem was on my return ACC-AMS-MAN they would not let me board on the ACC-AMS flight

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-06-27 19:39:22 and read 7254 times.

In determining if compensation is due, only a few factors need to be reviewed:

1) Did you have a valid ticket?
2) Did you meet all check-in requirements, such as time and place?
3) Did you present a complete and valid set of applicable identification, passport and visa documents required for your trip?
4) Did the airline inconvenience you due to an event under their control?

If all 4 are true, you are owed damages to the extent you incurred them, up to the maximum allowable under the governing laws. An airline ticket is a contract, not to be taken lightly by either party. With few exceptions, refusal to carry within the U.S., when a passenger has met all of the terms and conditions of the ticket, can cause the revoking of an airline's status as a "common carrier", along with the benefits and legal protections which the airline derives from that.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-06-27 19:47:28 and read 7228 times.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 14):
Not correct, the previous, rather xenophobic, Dutch government introduced new visa rules. Nationals from a number of countries, including some West-African countries, need to apply for a transit visa, even if they stay in the customs zone. This is a stupid rule and is costing KLM quite some customers (especially in Nigeria). A number of organizations in NG discourage their staff travelling with KLM via AMS because of this rule (and the time and money involved in getting the transit visa).

But how do the authorities check if the pax has a transit visa - you disembark from your arriving flight, wander through the duty free to the non-Schengen gate of your next flight, without meeting any immigration people at all ? Do they stand at the end of the jetway and check ? How very fascist.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Virginia
Posted 2007-06-27 19:47:33 and read 7228 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 15):

Ok, so on your return flight you were refused by KL.
They should have contacted KL Amsterdam if you were allowed to travel back home due the fact you also travelled via Amsterdam and where accepted by KLM.
If KL Ams and Customs do not agree, they still have to transport you back to MAN, because mistake was made by them and you.


Then the only options would be maybe via LHR to MAN.
Will check TIM in AMadeus tomorrow morning.


So you purchased a new ticket, is that correct.


Virginia

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-06-27 19:56:41 and read 7208 times.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
But how do the authorities check if the pax has a transit visa - you disembark from your arriving flight, wander through the duty free to the non-Schengen gate of your next flight, without meeting any immigration people at all ? Do they stand at the end of the jetway and check ? How very fascist.

KLM needs to check for transit visa when checking in and before entering the aircraft . They need to scan finger prints and copy the passports. In Amsterdam all flights from West-Africa are checked at the gate and immigration officials will check whether you have the transit visa. If you have, you're free to go, otherwise you're detained (even if you have an entry visa for your final destination, say the US). The gate checks by immigration are very common in other European countries as well, have had this in CDG coming from AF flights in West Africa as well.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: SK601
Posted 2007-06-27 19:59:58 and read 7201 times.

Quoting Virginia (Reply 18):
Will check TIM in AMadeus tomorrow morning.

Not necessary. The KLM website will give you an answer. NO TRANSIT VISA NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!
For nationality I entered Ghana
Alien resident: UK
Destination: UK
Transit: Netherlands

Even if you enter "Lebanon" as nationality, you don't need a transit visa for Netherlands, so either passport is OK.

http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/trav...lanning/travel_clinic/visaform.htm

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-27 20:25:53 and read 7142 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
In determining if compensation is due, only a few factors need to be reviewed:

1) Did you have a valid ticket?
2) Did you meet all check-in requirements, such as time and place?
3) Did you present a complete and valid set of applicable identification, passport and visa documents required for your trip?
4) Did the airline inconvenience you due to an event under their control?

1) Ticket was valid and i checked in online the day before
2-yes
3- yes
4-yeah lol

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
But how do the authorities check if the pax has a transit visa -

they check it in country of departure, and sometimes when u get off the flight, immigration is standing by the a/c door in AMS

Quoting Virginia (Reply 18):
Ok, so on your return flight you were refused by KL

yes

Quoting Virginia (Reply 18):
contacted KL Amsterdam

we tried, they said head office is closed, station manager at a/c and too busy to attend(told by KLM airport office)

ONLY the below countries do need transit visa to pass thru the airport:
AFGHANISTAN
BANGLADESH
CONGO (DRC)
ERITREA (1)
ETHIOPIA
GHANA (2)
IRAN (2)
IRAQ
NIGERIA
PAKISTAN (2)
SOMALIA
SRI LANKA
Many west african do not need a transit visa like Togo, Gambia, Senegal.



i know with the Ghanaian passport i do need a visa but with the lebanese i DO NOT need.


From KLM website itself
Visa not required provided:
- arriving and departing from/to a non-Schengen country (see:
TIRGL/SCHS ); and
- continuing by same or first available aircraft to a third
country; and
- holding confirmed onward reservation and all documents
required for next destination; and
- not leaving the airport transit area.

[Edited 2007-06-27 20:30:37]

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-06-27 21:07:42 and read 7065 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 21):
AFGHANISTAN
BANGLADESH
CONGO (DRC)
ERITREA (1)
ETHIOPIA
GHANA (2)
IRAN (2)
IRAQ
NIGERIA
PAKISTAN (2)
SOMALIA
SRI LANKA

Is this complete? I am fairly sure nationals from Sierra Leone need a transit visa as well.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: UPPERDECKFAN
Posted 2007-06-27 21:20:12 and read 7019 times.

Dual citizenship shouldn't be an issue. There are thousands of latin americans born living in Spain that carry both passports, when they fly back to their country they check in at MAD with the spanish one and upon arrival they clear inmigration with the local passport and same thing coming back, you check in with the local passport and show spanish passport in MAD inmigration.

At least I know several venezuelans and argentinians that have been doing this for years without any issues.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2007-06-28 01:00:07 and read 5714 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 10):
Alitalia said there is NO PROBLEM using dual passport to fly to UK, However KL refused me to travel. Italy and the netherlands both are shenguen states.

What would you expect? That's Sky Team for you  duck 

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 8):
That's why we have sources like TIMATIC to TELL us, as JFK787NYC says, "idiots" whether or not a passenger is holding the proper documents, and if it doesn't fit what TIMATIC instructs us, we can deny you boarding.

That works as long you guys actually know geography. I was about to be denied boarding AC001 (before I became adopted Canuck), because the check agent wanted me to have Japanese visa. Her system told her that I need visa, because I'm a Russian. Mind you, she held a passport in her hand that was saying "Slovenska Republika". Yes, Slovakia as a part of Czechoslovakia was in the Soviet sphere, but it was never physically part of Russia. Fortunately, I managed to convince her that she needs to type in BTS instead of SVO...

Quoting KL577 (Reply 14):
Not correct, the previous, rather xenophobic, Dutch government introduced new visa rules. Nationals from a number of countries, including some West-African countries, need to apply for a transit visa, even if they stay in the customs zone.

Can they ever do that? Visa requirements within the Schengen zone are harmonized.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 14):
This is a stupid rule and is costing KLM quite some customers (especially in Nigeria). A number of organizations in NG discourage their staff travelling with KLM via AMS because of this rule (and the time and money involved in getting the transit visa).

Honestly, if I'd be a business owner there, I'd do the same.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-28 02:26:36 and read 5368 times.

Got hold of KLM, after eing transfered from one person to another (spoke to 6 people) all i got was, put that in writing and we will have to investigate it

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Detroitflyer
Posted 2007-06-28 05:58:16 and read 4727 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 25):
Got hold of KLM, after eing transfered from one person to another (spoke to 6 people) all i got was, put that in writing and we will have to investigate it

dude, i hope it all works out for you. That is a lot of money to be loosing. I would be pissed

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Wdleiser
Posted 2007-06-28 06:54:44 and read 4568 times.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 19):

KLM needs to check for transit visa when checking in and before entering the aircraft . They need to scan finger prints and copy the passports. In Amsterdam all flights from West-Africa are checked at the gate and immigration officials will check whether you have the transit visa. If you have, you're free to go, otherwise you're detained (even if you have an entry visa for your final destination, say the US). The gate checks by immigration are very common in other European countries as well, have had this in CDG coming from AF flights in West Africa as well.

LH does this for African flights too, I believe it is to prevent people from getting off the plane, then while in the terminal throwing away their passport and trying to declare asylum.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: UPPERDECKFAN
Posted 2007-06-28 08:08:14 and read 4391 times.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 24):
Visa requirements within the Schengen zone are harmonized

Not right, for example some latin american countries do not require visa to entry Spain but they do for other EU countries

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Halophila
Posted 2007-06-28 09:12:34 and read 4208 times.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 23):
There are thousands of latin americans born living in Spain that carry both passports

Same goes for UK passport holders in Australia and New Zealand.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 2):
NEVER mention 2 passports -- they get confused.

Holds true for numerous western countries as well. US immigration law is VERY grey on dual citizenship status for nonimmigrants or immigrant visa holders. As a triple passport holder, I avoid the issue when coming into the US by only giving them one.

Sounds like a pretty clear case (based on what you have said anyway) of operator error by KLM.

Good luck with your claim!
~Halophila

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: RootsAir
Posted 2007-06-28 09:55:06 and read 4056 times.

Quoting Soups (Thread starter):
Am i entitled to any compensation?

I always thought you had a UK passport!

That's not a very cool attitude I admit. Did it ever happen to you before?
Regards
BM airplane  wave 

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-28 10:01:40 and read 4035 times.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 30):
Did it ever happen to you before?

Nope flew KL to ACC, BEY, LAX, NYC, LOS, AMM, DAM before with 2 passports and NO problem whatsoever

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Virginia
Posted 2007-06-28 16:05:56 and read 3868 times.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 20):

They probably do not use this website in ACC, but at work you use the book TIMATIC or in the system (also KLM is using Amadeus these days, so the entry is very simple).
Even most KL personnel is not aware of this on their own website.
But they should have double checked this with AMS because that's where he come from the beginning, so error is made by KLM in AMsterdam.





Virginia

Quoting Soups (Reply 25):

But sent it by certified mail to their department.
Poor excuse that no one was available in Amsterdam, if that was the case ( why not rebooked you for the next day and try to get the info next day).



Soups,

But keep us updated about the outcome of this one.

Virginia

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-28 20:56:08 and read 3758 times.

Quoting Virginia (Reply 32):
why not rebooked you for the next day and try to get the info next day

Getting an appointment in Ghana for a shenguen visa... waiting list.... couple of month...
Out of subject... my bags never made it with BA to MAN, still waiting for them lol
They said they can book me on a later flight but i have to buy a new ticket

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Jimyvr
Posted 2007-06-28 21:02:30 and read 3748 times.

By the way, frankly to speak, airlines won't compensate anything to a passenger if denied boarding due to documentation issues.

If they do, they're just doing a favor, but not necessary their responsibility.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: ANother
Posted 2007-06-28 22:31:23 and read 3697 times.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 34):
By the way, frankly to speak, airlines won't compensate anything to a passenger if denied boarding due to documentation issues.

If they do, they're just doing a favor, but not necessary their responsibility.

Compensation no, but they should refund the value of the ticket that they refused.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Jimyvr
Posted 2007-06-28 22:39:14 and read 3682 times.

Quoting ANother (Reply 35):

Compensation no, but they should refund the value of the ticket that they refused.

Sometimes I'm not sure why should airline be liable if people don't get their documents straight.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Scarebus03
Posted 2007-06-28 22:48:47 and read 3667 times.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 34):
By the way, frankly to speak, airlines won't compensate anything to a passenger if denied boarding due to documentation issues.

If they do, they're just doing a favor, but not necessary their responsibility.

Not if the Airline hasn't complied with the appropriate entry protocols and the passenger has. If the Airline has misinterpreted the immigration laws then they should be held responsible,

Don't let it drop Soups, I would'nt

Brgds
SB03

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-29 01:34:57 and read 3614 times.

Getting all papers ready and posting it over the weekend, Hopefully i would hear in the next 2weeks or so

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: ETStar
Posted 2007-06-29 01:43:26 and read 3598 times.

Quoting Soups (Reply 38):
Getting all papers ready and posting it over the weekend, Hopefully i would hear in the next 2weeks or so

Did you at least get better service from G0? What was the fare? Big grin

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-06-29 01:50:25 and read 3586 times.

Quoting ANother (Reply 35):
Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 34):
By the way, frankly to speak, airlines won't compensate anything to a passenger if denied boarding due to documentation issues.

If they do, they're just doing a favor, but not necessary their responsibility.

Compensation no, but they should refund the value of the ticket that they refused.

I have a difficult time with that position. An airline has vast resources to rely upon to validate that a passenger is carrying proper identification and entry documents for their ticketed journey. A one-way or last-minute international ticket is an expensive proposition on most routes, and denying passage to a passenger may entail thousands in unexpected travel expenses. A passenger has an expectation of carriage at no further expense when presenting themselves with a valid ticket, on time, and with all necessary documentation. If an error is made by the airline, the airline shouldn't merely be limited to an "Oops, sorry" along with the refund of the price of the original ticket. All normal denied boarding penalties should be applicable. If the airline takes its sweet time to validate someone's claim, they should also be responsible for all costs in obtaining alternate travel arrangements the airline could and should have originally provided.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Jimyvr
Posted 2007-06-29 07:32:41 and read 3524 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
If the airline takes its sweet time to validate someone's claim, they should also be responsible for all costs in obtaining alternate travel arrangements the airline could and should have originally provided.

It actually brings to another point. Is it really fair to the airline to transport the passenger back to original point of departure if the pax got caught with illegal documents or being an illegal immigrants on their own expense?

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: ANother
Posted 2007-06-29 08:21:23 and read 3490 times.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 36):
Sometimes I'm not sure why should airline be liable if people don't get their documents straight.

I agree, but in this case it APPEARS that KLM got it wrong. But we don't know the whole story either.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 41):

It actually brings to another point. Is it really fair to the airline to transport the passenger back to original point of departure if the pax got caught with illegal documents or being an illegal immigrants on their own expense?

Fair? No - But Governments make it the responsibility of airlines to ensure that passengers they bring in have the correct documentation. This is why the airlines tend to er on the cautious side.

In any case the cost of repatriation is often the lessor of the fine and the cost of detention while the Government figures out if the guy is indeed illegal - In some cases this takes months.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2007-06-29 09:37:23 and read 3454 times.

I wouldn’t have let you board either. I’ve had considerable experience of dual nationality travelers, as well as those seeking to enter countries illegally. Our policy (for dual passports) is only to accept them to the point for which passport they are using to leave with, and show to local immigration. E.g. if you are in Thailand, with dual US/Thai passport, wanting to go via Singapore to US then if you want to leave Thailand with Thai passport, then check in to SIN only, and you need to recheck there for the US flight. If you use US passport, then OK to check in to US.

Problem is with your scenario, that you can use one passport for transit, and the other for entry, that the airline is relying on you not to do anything stupid, like claim asylum in Amsterdam during transit, having conveniently lost your Lebanese passport on the way… I am sure that you yourself would never dream of this, but it happens.

I remember one family that was going to Brussels. They had Schengen visa, but were transiting London. They were allowed transit visa free in London, if catching first onward flight. But their inbound routing was very suspicious, and I also knew the travel agent involved was suspicious. So I told them that I would re-route the ticket to transit Frankfurt instead. After a few long distance calls, they asked that the ticket be re-routed to Pakistan, and off they went to Karachi. So, I think my hunch was right, and they were planning to try and enter UK.

My advice is to get a UK visa in your Lebanese passport, or Schengen in your Ghana passport.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-06-29 10:07:01 and read 3429 times.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 43):

Problem is with your scenario, that you can use one passport for transit, and the other for entry, that the airline is relying on you not to do anything stupid, like claim asylum in Amsterdam during transit, having conveniently lost your Lebanese passport on the way… I am sure that you yourself would never dream of this, but it happens.

Why would one lose his Lebanese passport if you can use exactly that passport to enter the transit country without problems? This doesn't make sense.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 43):
Our policy (for dual passports) is only to accept them to the point for which passport they are using to leave with, and show to local immigration.

Is this common policy amongst airlines? This thread is the first time I heard an airline refusing a passenger because he was using two passports, but you seem to suggest it is common? If so, why don't airlines communicate this (e.g. on their websites?).

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-06-29 10:38:32 and read 3406 times.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 39):
Did you at least get better service from G0? What was the fare?


KL flight was crowded, seat pitch is small, (what i got on AMS-ACC)
on G0 there were some empty seats so i got myself a 3 seats.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 43):
My advice is to get a UK visa in your Lebanese passport, or Schengen in your Ghana passport.

My shenguen visa just ended, and it would be very suspicious to apply for a second UK visa on another passport while the other one is still valid until 2011

Quoting ETStar (Reply 39):
What was the fare?

£230 One way  Smile The others (AZ,BA...) wanted at least £1000 was even considering using KQ ACC-NBO-LHR-MAN as i needed to get to UK urgent for work

Quoting ANother (Reply 42):
I agree, but in this case it APPEARS that KLM got it wrong.

As i booked my ticket (from UK) just 24h before departure the only airlines that had availability was KL, BA and EK. i avoid whenever possible. i booked EK then when i called KL and was informed NO VISA needed i cancelled y EK flight and went for KL.

I believe i had all documentation correct.
Ghana: passport to leave and enter
UK: Visa to leave and enter
Holland: Visa free passport to transit.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 44):
Why would one lose his Lebanese passport if you can use exactly that passport to enter the transit country without problems? This doesn't make sense.

Even if i lost my passport during the journey, (lets say in ACC) i would have not boarded the flight as immigration officer at gate, if i lost it IN amsterdam transit area, i can get to the UK with my Ghanaian one.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2007-06-29 11:21:58 and read 3370 times.

Uhm, he can’t use the Lebanese passport to enter Netherlands, only to transit…

No, there is no policy to deny dual passport users boarding. But there is a policy to not let people “mix and match” passports and visas.

For example, if his Lebanese passport still had Schengen visa (so he can enter Netherlands), then check him to Netherlands only. In Netherlands, in transit, he can then use his Ghana passport with UK visa to check in to UK

Here:

(1) Ghana: passport to leave and enter (Ghana ppt)
(2) UK: Visa to leave and enter (Ghana ppt)
(3) Holland: Visa free passport to transit. (Lebanese ppt)

But (1,2) and (3) are different ppt, so we would not allow the journey. On the passport he is leaving Ghana on, he is not allowed to transit or enter AMS. He should fly direct ACC-UK

People deliberately lose their passport, so as to make it hard for the country to deport them. Now I am sure Soaps is a legitimate businessman, but just as there are advantages to having two passports (tax, visas etc) there are disadvantages too.

As for compensation, I would say refund of unused portion of ticket, waiving refund fees, is fair

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Virginia
Posted 2007-06-29 18:51:48 and read 3240 times.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 36):

Because they have accepted the pax on the way to ACC, so you are liable.
Yes they should have seen it then in AMS, but they didn't, so it's KLM's responsibility to get the pax back to country of origin.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 43):

They accepted him, so who is responsible then, KLM isn't, they accepted pax.
So they also should arrange his return.
That flight is full is a low excuse in my opinion, you don't think so.


Virginia

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: 757MDE
Posted 2007-06-30 03:55:02 and read 3133 times.

Besides all that's been written here there's something else, at least here in Colombia (for what I know, apologies in advance if I got it wrong).

If you're Colombian while entering or exiting Colombia you HAVE by law to use your Colombian passport and ID, If you're dual citizen (Colombian and somewhere else) and you use your foreign passport to move here in Colombia, even though you have a Colombian one and they catch you you're liable to lots of problems and money wasting.

I for one am Colombian - UK citizen, why would I have to get a visa for my Colombian passport (with all the money and time one "invests" in getting it) for a country which is visa free for UK citizens or use the UK passport here with all the problems it could bring just because the Airline (not even the country itself) has trouble with me using both passports? (Colombian for Colombia and UK for the rest -mostly-), it makes absolutely no sense for me.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-07-05 14:35:24 and read 2944 times.

I got 1st reply from KL:
Dea Mr X
Thank you for your mail and I regret to learn of your comments. In order that I may investigate the situation you have described can you please re-confirm your flight number, date of travel and your name as it would have been shown on the ticket.

Thank you for your assistance.

With Regards

They replied via e-mail.
Let's see what their investigation comes too

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2007-07-05 21:37:34 and read 2798 times.

you were denied boarding for something you did yourself, which was a reason you could not legally travel.

Therefore you're not due any compensation, it is after all your own fault they had to deny you (you were trying to enter or leave a country under false pretenses, trying to get out from under visa requirements, the airline could have ended up in serious legal problems had they carried you).

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-07-05 21:57:45 and read 2769 times.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 50):
you were denied boarding for something you did yourself, which was a reason you could not legally travel.

Therefore you're not due any compensation, it is after all your own fault they had to deny you (you were trying to enter or leave a country under false pretenses, trying to get out from under visa requirements, the airline could have ended up in serious legal problems had they carried you).

What are you talking about? He said he had all the necessary documents, only spread over two passports. There is NO law which stipulates this as being illegal. Only KLM seems to have a problem with people travelling with two passports. Then the airline should have said earlier, and/or made this clear to everyone, for example at their website.

Topic: RE: KL- Denied Boarding! Compensation?
Username: Soups
Posted 2007-07-06 01:46:55 and read 2650 times.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 51):
What are you talking about? He said he had all the necessary documents, only spread over two passports. There is NO law which stipulates this as being illegal. Only KLM seems to have a problem with people travelling with two passports. Then the airline should have said earlier, and/or made this clear to everyone, for example at their website.

Again as i said above, i have called KLM before booking my flight and they said i have got all the documents correct.


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