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Topic: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-08-10 19:06:49 and read 4011 times.

It seems that for widebody aircraft, Boeing and Airbus are moving towards pivot bins for the overhead bins. Pivot bins allow for greater overhead capacity allowing for more headroom in the cabin. The 777 started Boeing's big move towards pivot bins, and they soon became standard on te 747, 767, and 787. Airbus is using pivot bins on the upper deck of the A380, and is using BMW-designed pivot bins for the A350.

However, most narrowbody aircraft still use shelf bins. With the Boeing 737RS and Airbus NSR supposedly being wider than existing narrowbody aircraft, is there a chance we can see (rather than shelf bins) on them? It would make sense if Boeing decides to go with a 2-2-2 layout, but if Boeing does a 3-3 layout with a wider aisle than the A320, than maybe pivot bins may still be preferrable over shelf bins.

Does anyone have any thought on this?

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-08-10 19:12:03 and read 3989 times.

They only work if you have room in the crown to pivot into. Neither the A320 nor the 737 nor the 757, etc. have room to make them worthwhile.

Further, a single aisle plane has less need for this. The pivot bins are more important on planes where the seat combinations are more varied (1-2-1, 2-3-2, 3-3-3, 2-4-2, etc.) because the places where customers heads might be while walking will vary from cabin to cabin and carrier to carrier. This means getting them "up and away" when not in use is key. When a 777 bin is down, it can really get in the way sometimes...

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-08-10 19:16:52 and read 3976 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
They only work if you have room in the crown to pivot into. Neither the A320 nor the 737 nor the 757, etc. have room to make them worthwhile.

Further, a single aisle plane has less need for this. The pivot bins are more important on planes where the seat combinations are more varied (1-2-1, 2-3-2, 3-3-3, 2-4-2, etc.) because the places where customers heads might be while walking will vary from cabin to cabin and carrier to carrier. This means getting them "up and away" when not in use is key. When a 777 bin is down, it can really get in the way sometimes...

Well, the 737RS and NSR are expected to feature a wider fuselage than existing narrowbody aircraft. If a 2-2-2 layout is used, then pivot bins would definately be preferrable over shelf bins. Center bins are not as important and may be optional, but if they are used, they will have to be smaller than most current aircraft, similar to those on the 767s with the "Classic" interior. If a 3-3 layout with a wider aisle is used, then passengers can more easily get past open overhead bins as well as get past FAs with carts.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-08-10 19:23:28 and read 3951 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
Well, the 737RS and NSR are expected to feature a wider fuselage than existing narrowbody aircraft. If a 2-2-2 layout is used

don't count on 2-2-2. and the added width even with 2-2-2 and 18.5" seats is only about 24".

But even then, you could do E170 style bins on the sides, and "drop" bins in the middle/staggered right/left opening. In fact, the overhead bin situation is one likely reason that you won't see 2-2-2.

As for the larger fuselage, it won't be that much larger. Just "a bit" and not nearly enough to create any real crown space.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2007-08-10 19:40:28 and read 3916 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
don't count on 2-2-2.

Why not? Boeing did a study having people in a 2-2-2 layout then moving them to a 3-3 layout to see which one passengers liked more, its possible a 2-2-2 layout could happen

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-08-10 20:06:47 and read 3867 times.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 4):
Why not?

Can't argue with "why not?" I mean, that's pretty much all you have to say.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Leskova
Posted 2007-08-10 20:15:13 and read 3846 times.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 4):
Why not? Boeing did a study having people in a 2-2-2 layout then moving them to a 3-3 layout to see which one passengers liked more, its possible a 2-2-2 layout could happen

Of course "people" will prefer 2-2-2, having either window or aisle seat - guaranteed - with no dreaded middle seats is a pretty obvious choice.

The real question is: what will the number crunchers and bean counters prefer? That, in the end, will make the decision.

Or do you think that, for example, "people" would have chosen the B787 to go from 8 abreast to 9 abreast as the, effectively, standard configuration?

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2007-08-10 21:31:50 and read 3757 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Can't argue with "why not?" I mean, that's pretty much all you have to say

did you just not read the rest of my post? it says right after "why not?" why i think it is possible.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
Of course "people" will prefer 2-2-2, having either window or aisle seat - guaranteed - with no dreaded middle seats is a pretty obvious choice.

The real question is: what will the number crunchers and bean counters prefer? That, in the end, will make the decision.

Or do you think that, for example, "people" would have chosen the B787 to go from 8 abreast to 9 abreast as the, effectively, standard configuration?

by people i mean passengers, and yes the passengers don't get to decide but if most of the passengers like it maybe airlines and Boeing will considder it more because Boeing seems to want to please passengers, and while a 2-2-2 config might not be possible or cost effective im sure if enough people like that config boeing and the airlines will considder it.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-08-10 21:42:38 and read 3736 times.

Could we please stay on the discussion on using pivot bins vs. shelf bins, rather than about the seating layout on the 737RS/NSR?

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-10 21:45:15 and read 3726 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
But even then, you could do E170 style bins on the sides, and "drop" bins in the middle/staggered right/left opening. In fact, the overhead bin situation is one likely reason that you won't see 2-2-2.

I think that a center shelf bin that is opened on both R/L would be more convenient to pax. It would allow three 25" roll-aboard bags standing on edge per seat row... or 2 flat.

And why would the center bin be such an issue that it precludes a 2-2-2?

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
The real question is: what will the number crunchers and bean counters prefer? That, in the end, will make the decision.

Not really... the E-jets are wider than they need to be for number cruchers... but pax like them!!!

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-08-10 21:50:11 and read 3701 times.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 9):
I think that a center shelf bin that is opened on both R/L would be more convenient to pax. It would allow three 25" roll-aboard bags standing on edge per seat row... or 2 flat.

Maybe center shelf bins may work, along with outer pivot bins. Airbus has traditionally used center shelf bins on their widebody aircraft. The pre-Signautre Interior 767s use "translating" bins in the center that slide down. And perhaps the center bins can be in pairs of two like the outer bins on pre-Signature Interior 767s and like on the 737NG.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-08-10 21:51:14 and read 3701 times.

Do you really think that the style of overhead bins is a ""critical design element"" that is being analyzed at this early point in both the Airbus and Boeing programs? It seems that neither Boeing or Airbus have settled on a fuselage diameter(s) for the new types, the exact pax capacity of the variants of each airplane family to be offered has not been finalized (nor has the number of variants to be developed been set), and the exact performance capabilities for the variants is still undetermined.....and you are talking about the shape and operation of the overhead bins?

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: TSS
Posted 2007-08-10 21:56:49 and read 3685 times.

Shelf-style bins are the way to go on narrowbodies like the 737RS, even with the rumored 2-2-2 seating: Wider, wheels-in bins for the outboard pax, narrower, side-loaded bins mounted back-to-back for the pax in the center seats.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2007-08-10 22:04:03 and read 3669 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Shelf-style bins are the way to go on narrowbodies like the 737RS, even with the rumored 2-2-2 seating: Wider, wheels-in bins for the outboard pax, narrower, side-loaded bins mounted back-to-back for the pax in the center seats.

Remember though, the reason why Boeing abandoned shelf bins on the 777 is to give the passengers a more open feeling. While shelf bins are okay on a single-aisle aircraft, they somewhat make widebody aircraft feel quite cramped and cluttered. In the past month, I flown on a Delta domestic 767-300 and two American Airlines Airbus A300s. While both aircraft featured shelf bins outboard, the 767 featured the slide-down type in the center. The cabin of the 767 felt much more open, despite the narrower fuselage. Airbus is now also moving away from shelf bins on the A350 with its BMW-designed interior.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-08-10 22:31:15 and read 3622 times.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 9):
I think that a center shelf bin that is opened on both R/L would be more convenient to pax. It would allow three 25" roll-aboard bags standing on edge per seat row... or 2 flat.



Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Shelf-style bins are the way to go on narrowbodies like the 737RS, even with the rumored 2-2-2 seating: Wider, wheels-in bins for the outboard pax, narrower, side-loaded bins mounted back-to-back for the pax in the center seats.

Look, I love the idea of 2-2-2. I've talked about how it "could" work, but I highly doubt it will ever fly, mainly because there isn't a need, and also because of issues such as this.

You can't fit rollerboards longways into a bin that has the clearance to only cover 2 seats in a 2-2-2. Bags often have to be turned on a 767 with the new interior, despite the much taller fuselage and articulating bins. Nor can you put a long bin over the middle with doors on both sides with only 2 middle seats. There won't be enough shoulder/head room to operate, again unless you can put the bins way into the room in the crown, which a 737 replacement won't have.

So you'd need shallower bins like the E170. But they should work, in theory.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 7):
did you just not read the rest of my post? it says right after "why not?" why i think it is possible.

No. You gave a passenger preference preceded by why not? I already read your opinion earlier, it's a fine opinion, but obviously you think it is the only valid one, so if someone says something else, you counter with "why not?" You can't debate with someone when they do that. It's sort of like "can too" and "does so" and "nuh uh". i respect your opinion, but it doesn't mean it's going to be reality.

If you showed a coach passenger 1-2-1 seating with 18.5" seats on a current 737, they'd even like it more than 2-2-2 on a new plane. If you showed them 1-1 F suite seating on a 757, and then sat them in a 3-3 seat, you'd hear everyone prefer the 1-1 because it's obviously better. Same holds for 2-2-2 over 3-3. but it's not the only factor that goes into a decision, and despite my support for the 2-2-2 seating in the past and despite the fact I think the bin thing could be worked out if it had to be (but would be a compromise), I am also of the opinion that it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

With over 10000 3-3 (and 2-3) planes flying right now, obviously passengers aren't revolting, so why sacrifice weight and design to give pax a "preference" when if that product never gets launched, nobody will ever know what they are missing? If the 3-3 with wider seats and a "double" aisle is offered instead, passengers will still prefer that to the current configurations...

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2007-08-11 02:43:07 and read 3469 times.

All I am going to say is that everyone that has posted so far is wrong about the possibility of the addition of pivot bins on the 737. Open up your minds. If pivot bins would help improve the 737 experience, then people are working on bringing them to the plane, but if they do not improve the overall experience, then they won't ever be used. Boeing is an innovative company that will work to produce the best possible product.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-11 02:46:43 and read 3463 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
You can't fit rollerboards longways into a bin that has the clearance to only cover 2 seats in a 2-2-2.

The standard roll-aboards are 25"x16"x10"... so they should be able to fit wing-to-wing in a single shelf bin (with R/L access) over the 2 center seats since even with a 17" seat the center seating unit will be at least 36" wide at a minimum.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Nor can you put a long bin over the middle with doors on both sides with only 2 middle seats. There won't be enough shoulder/head room to operate, again unless you can put the bins way into the room in the crown, which a 737 replacement won't have.

It is only my opinion... but I believe it is feasible. The aisle height of the 737 is 86" (7' 2" - and there is ducting above the ceiling panel, so there is more height to the crown) so you could put bins over center seats... and more so with a wider fuse with an even higher crown. Therefore, there is enough shoulder/heaad room to operate with center bins... it would be even more so than in the E-jets (see pic) which have a crown a foot lower than the 737 (actual aisle diff is only 9.5").

In fact, depending on bag orientation, the center bin design can have several options to suit client cabin look and roll-aboard stowage capacity.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
So you'd need shallower bins like the E170. But they should work, in theory.

When looking at the E-jet cabin and visually extrapolating up to a future narrowbody, it would certainly appear that a 2-2-2 is a feasible customer option to a 3-3 config Y1/737RS with wider seats and aisles. The outboard bins could even be larger than the E-jet design... and a single 26" wide center bin with a wing-to-wing layout for roll-aboards open to both aisles would take up less space than two side-by-side nose-to-tail center bins (17" wide x 2). At the moment I do not see any show stoppers.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Pacifica
Posted 2007-08-11 03:59:02 and read 3407 times.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):

The standard roll-aboards are 25"x16"x10"... so they should be able to fit wing-to-wing in a single shelf bin (with R/L access) over the 2 center seats since even with a 17" seat the center seating unit will be at least 36" wide at a minimum.

One thing to think about though...if you've got a single shelf bin that runs across the entire center seat section, where do the doors to that shelf bin open into? Wouldn't that block the aisles and prevent passenger movement?

Just a thought anyways.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-11 05:48:08 and read 3362 times.

Quoting Pacifica (Reply 17):
One thing to think about though...if you've got a single shelf bin that runs across the entire center seat section, where do the doors to that shelf bin open into? Wouldn't that block the aisles and prevent passenger movement?

No, they wouldn't block aisles because the bins are not as wide as the seat unit below.

With a center seating unit of at least 38" wide and a single run-through shelf bin unit above that is no more than 27" wide... 11" narrower than the seat unit below, it really wouldn't be an issue.Furthermore, not only do the bins not reach the aisle, the doors open up and above any pax... look at the E-jet picture. Additionally, the center bins could be mounted a few inches higher than the side bins, thus even less in the way of any pax.

If the pivot style bins would be adopted, then the bin height could be even higher... around 20" higher. Of course, roll-aboard bag capacity would be reduced but the cabin would look and feel roomier than a cabin with center shelf bins (and there would still be more carry-on capacity than a 3-3).

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2007-08-11 07:16:07 and read 3312 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
No. You gave a passenger preference preceded by why not? I already read your opinion earlier, it's a fine opinion, but obviously you think it is the only valid one, so if someone says something else, you counter with "why not?" You can't debate with someone when they do that. It's sort of like "can too" and "does so" and "nuh uh". i respect your opinion, but it doesn't mean it's going to be reality.

Why not is a valid question, im not being smart when i say it, i really want to know, someone out there probably knows why it might or might not work so i wanted to know, maybe i didn't phrase it in the best possible way.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
With over 10000 3-3 (and 2-3) planes flying right now, obviously passengers aren't revolting, so why sacrifice weight and design to give pax a "preference" when if that product never gets launched, nobody will ever know what they are missing? If the 3-3 with wider seats and a "double" aisle is offered instead, passengers will still prefer that to the current configurations...

yes there are plenty of 3-3 planes flying now and there is no problem with that, passenger preference does make a difference, it may not be the only decision maker but it still has some impact, for the weight they are going to use composites so it might help some but i'm sure if the weight was too high then they would not consider it and it would be too bad for the passenger, that is fine to. What i'm saying is i'm sure Boeing and the airlines are looking at the possibility, a 3-3 with wider seats and aisles could be just as appealing as a 2-2-2

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-11 21:35:06 and read 3151 times.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 19):
yes there are plenty of 3-3 planes flying now and there is no problem with that, passenger preference does make a difference, it may not be the only decision maker but it still has some impact, for the weight they are going to use composites so it might help some but i'm sure if the weight was too high then they would not consider it and it would be too bad for the passenger, that is fine to. What i'm saying is i'm sure Boeing and the airlines are looking at the possibility, a 3-3 with wider seats and aisles could be just as appealing as a 2-2-2

I agree with you, though many don't. Many that don't agree are stuck on the 3-3 paradigm and can't see beyond the present even though the 737RS won't EIS for another 8 years. For others that don't agree it is because they have a basic misunderstanding of the relative impact of widening the fuselage diameter of the 737NG or A320. There is little doubt that the 737RS and A320NSR will have wider cabins... at least the upper end of the replacement models... that in addition to the basic 3-3 layout could have a 2-2-2 option. Of course, pivot bins would fit in the wider fuselage.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: KangarooMAN
Posted 2007-08-11 21:50:27 and read 3134 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
When a 777 bin is down, it can really get in the way sometimes...

Oh they can i've smacked my head countless times on SQ's 772's bins while cleaning them!!

Roo

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Wsp
Posted 2007-08-11 22:23:33 and read 3099 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
Do you really think that the style of overhead bins is a ""critical design element"" that is being analyzed at this early point in both the Airbus and Boeing programs?

One would hope so. Less overhead space means more passengers running around (and against the stream of boarding passengers) trying to find a place to stow away their hand luggage. This affects the boarding times and thus the profitability of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-12 00:03:48 and read 3066 times.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 22):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
Do you really think that the style of overhead bins is a ""critical design element"" that is being analyzed at this early point in both the Airbus and Boeing programs?

One would hope so. Less overhead space means more passengers running around (and against the stream of boarding passengers) trying to find a place to stow away their hand luggage. This affects the boarding times and thus the profitability of the aircraft.

It certainly is part of one of the "critical design elements" - cabin layout.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2007-08-12 02:17:26 and read 3009 times.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 4):
Why not? Boeing did a study having people in a 2-2-2 layout then moving them to a 3-3 layout to see which one passengers liked more, its possible a 2-2-2 layout could happen

In any given fuselage width, the airlines prefer 3-3 over 2-2-2 for Y because they can embark and disembark much faster with one very wide aisle than with two narrow aisles.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Grantcv
Posted 2007-08-12 05:06:10 and read 2931 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
Do you really think that the style of overhead bins is a ""critical design element"" that is being analyzed at this early point in both the Airbus and Boeing programs? It seems that neither Boeing or Airbus have settled on a fuselage diameter(s) for the new types, the exact pax capacity of the variants of each airplane family to be offered has not been finalized (nor has the number of variants to be developed been set), and the exact performance capabilities for the variants is still undetermined.....and you are talking about the shape and operation of the overhead bins?

Overhead bins will most certainly be one of the critical elements in determining the fuselage diamter of the next generation of narrowbodies. More than anything else, the physical constraints they impose will drive much of the decision.

It is going to be an absolute requirement that any future narrowbody be able to fit as many 25" roll-aboard bags as possible. With this in mind, the overhead bins must be able to accept them long ways, and preferably on edge (something that isn't possible today in narrowbodies). Now if you look at the pivot bins on a 777, you will notice that the pivot point is not at the windows, it is about 12" inwards. Those 12" are used for ventilation and lighting. But there is a another reason for this. In order for the bin to have any sort of room at the back of the bin and still be able to close within the available room in the crown, the pivot point must be offset inward. So, add 12" to 25" and you get 37". Add another few inches for clearance, etc. and you are looking at 40" minimum. If you have two 18.5" seats, you start to see the problem, the bin will pivot down too close to the aisle to be usable. With the bins down and extending out to the aisle, it will be really difficult for passengers to load them up. Also, with all the bins down, passengers will feel very cramped when the enter into the cabin - seeing lots of bin space down the cabin and not the seat hidden from view underneath. This will be exactly the opposite feeling that interior designers are trying to achieve. Bins lids must open up and out of the way in smaller planes to create a sense of open space, not down and into the line of sight.

As for a center bin, having a bin that opens on both sides would be a safety concern. Passengers often stuff as much as they can into the overhead bins. This would make it very likely that stuff would fall out of the other side either when loading the bin, or when opening the "other" side during flight or at the end of the flight. This danger would not be acceptable. The only arrangement I can see working is a pivot style center bin that opens alternating left/right down the fuselage.

As appealing as 2+2+2 might seem as a concept, it seems really doubtful to me that it could be made to work - simply because the overhead bins could not be made to work.

Topic: RE: Pivot Bins For The 737RS And Airbus NSR?
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2007-08-13 11:13:29 and read 2805 times.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
In any given fuselage width, the airlines prefer 3-3 over 2-2-2 for Y because they can embark and disembark much faster with one very wide aisle than with two narrow aisles.

I don't think so. With a twin aisle, 4 out of 6 pax are on the aisle and the 2 window pax are only one seat from the aisle. With a 3-3, it is the opposite with 4 out of 6 pax having to get by 1 or 2 seats to be seated or exit. Just looking at it from a time and motion study, the 2-2-2 wins the "race" - particularly in disembarking.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 25):
As for a center bin, having a bin that opens on both sides would be a safety concern. Passengers often stuff as much as they can into the overhead bins. This would make it very likely that stuff would fall out of the other side either when loading the bin, or when opening the "other" side during flight or at the end of the flight. This danger would not be acceptable. The only arrangement I can see working is a pivot style center bin that opens alternating left/right down the fuselage.

You made a valid point about the center bins and the safety concern with a shelf opening from both sides. I initially thought that a lip like they use to have would be sufficient... but as you said, with the way people stuff things in the overhead there would be the danger of gear being pushed through the opposite side!

So, another idea that may work is a pivot bin over each center seat (side by side) that can accomodate two 25" bags on edge or one on top of the other (4 bags total over the center seating unit). Added to the bag in each of the two bins by the fuse walls and that would be a min of 6 bags per row. And with a 32" pitch you could conceivably have space for an extra row of 25" bags every 4 rows... much more than can fit in the BigBins in the 737/757.

I haven't looked at the geometry but it would be interesting to see if the same type of pivot bin that would allow double 25" bag placement (side-by-side on edge or stacked on top of each other) would work with pivot window bins or shelf bins since the 737RS will have a higher crown and straighter side walls. If that were the case, then there would be more than enough space for carry-ons.


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