Here is the Air France Long Haul program for the next winter season 2007/2008.

- Only flights operated by Air France itself are listed.

- All flights are NONSTOP unless indicated.

FLIGHTS FROM PARIS-CDG

*NORTH AMERICA*

YUL : 1 x Daily A343 + 1 x Daily B77W

YYZ : 1 x Daily A343

SFO : 1 x Daily A343

LAX : 16 x Weekly = 1 x Daily B772ER + 3 x Weekly B772ER + 5 x Weekly B77W + 1 x Weekly A343

IAH : 2 x Daily (B772ER + A332)

MIA : 1 x Daily B744

ATL : 1 x Daily A343

IAD : 2 x Daily (B772ER + B772ER)

ORD : 6 x Weekly A332

SEA : 5 x Weekly A332

DTW : 5 x Weekly A332

BOS : 1 x Daily B744

PHL : 5 x Weekly A332

JFK : 4 x Daily (B772ER + B772ER + A332 + B77W)

EWR : 1 x Daily A332

MEX : 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

*SOUTH AMERICA & CARIBBEAN*

CCS : 1 x Daily B744

BOG : 1 x Daily A343

GRU : 2 x Daily (A332 + B77W)

GIG : 2 x Daily (A332 + B744)

EZE : 1 x Daily B772ER

SCL : 1 x Daily B772ER

HAV : 1 x Daily B744

PUJ : 5 x Weekly B744

SDQ : 3 x Weekly B744

SXM : 1 x Daily A343

*AFRICA*

DKR : 1 x Daily B772ER

NKC : 5 x Weekly A319ER

CKY : 4 x Weekly A343

BKO : 1 x Daily A332

ABJ : 1 x Daily A343

NIM : 3 x Weekly A343

OUA : 6 x Weekly = 3 x A332 + 3 x A343 - 1 STOP NIM -

LFW : 3 x Weekly A343

COO : 5 x Weekly 4 x A343 + 1 x A332

BGF : 1 x Weekly A332

NDJ : 6 x Weekly A319ER

LOS : 1 x Daily A332

PHC : 4 x Weekly = 3 x A332 + 1 x A332 - 1 STOP COO -

DLA : 1 x Daily = 3 x A343 + 4 x A332

NSI : 3 x Weekly A343 - 1 STOP DLA -

LBV : 4 x Weekly B772ER

FIH : 3 x Weekly A332

BZV : 3 x Weekly A332

SSG : 5 x Weekly A319ER

PNR : 3 x Weekly A319ER

LAD : 1 x Weekly B77W

JNB : 2 x Daily (B77W + B77W)

TNR : 4 x Weekly A343

MRU : 1 x Daily B744

JIB : 1 x Weekly A332

*MIDDLE EAST*

BEY : 1 x Daily B77W

CAI : 10 x Weekly = 2 x Weekly B772ER + 5 x Weekly A332 + 3x Weekly A332

RUH : 6 x Weekly A319ER

JED : 4 x Weekly A319ER

AMM : 1 x Daily A320

DAM : 4 x Weekly A320

THR : 4 x Weekly A343

DXB : 1 x Daily B772ER + 6 x Weekly A332

EVN : 3 x Weekly A320

*ASIA*

SEL : 1 x Daily B77W

NRT : 1 x Daily B772ER + 1 x Daily B77W + 6 x Weekly A332

KIX : 1 x Daily B77W

PEK : 1 x Daily B77W + 3 x Weekly B772ER

CAN : 3 x Weekly A343

PVG : 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

HKG : 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

BKK : 1 x Daily B744

SGN : 4 x Weekly B744 - 1 STOP BKK -

HAN : 3 x Weekly B744 - 1 STOP BKK -

SIN : 1 x Daily B77W

DEL : 1 x Daily B744

BOM : 1 x Daily B77W

BLR : 1 x Daily B772ER

MAA : 4 x Weekly A343

FLIGHTS FROM PARIS-ORLY

RUN : 1 x Daily B77W + 2 x Weekly B77W

CAY : 1 x Daily A343

FDF : 2 x Daily (B77W + B77W)

PTP : 2 x Daily (B77W + B77W)



A332 = Airbus A330-200 – 16 aircraft - 40J/179Y -

View Large View Medium

Photo © Grant Feggi - t.dot photography

A343 = Airbus A340-300 – 19 aircraft - 36J/236Y or 30J/261Y -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Bjoern Schmitt - world-of-aviation


B744 = Boeing 747-400 – 13 aircraft - 40J/396Y or 17J/460Y -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Sam Chui


B772ER = Boeing 777-200ER – 25 aircraft - 4P/49J/211Y -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Jerry pang


B77W = B777-300ER – 23 aircraft - CDG = 8P/67J/235Y , ORY = 14J/36S/422M -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Vatche Mitilian


A319ER = Airbus A319ER – 5 aircraft - 28J/54Y -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Richard Koot


A320 = Airbus A320-200 - European Network configuration C/Y can vary - Long Haul Cabin Crew, Long Haul inflight service + IFE -
View Large View Medium

Photo © Royi Sher - TLVAviation

Thanks for information.

What about PPT from LAX ?

Regarding CAY from ORY, I thought that is has been turned to B777-300 ER from this spring. So they return to A 340-200 from end of October ?

PPT : 4 x Weekly via LAX - B77W on CDG-LAX, then A343 on LAX-PPT.

Is Yerevan considered Middle East by AF or you have listed it as such?

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):

On AF Website, they consider Yerevan as an East European destination like Kiev or Moscow.

Quoting AF777300ER (Reply 5):

And on a geographical point of view, Armenia is in Europe, the border between Europe and Asia is normally Ural Mountains I think. And when you discribe a white people face, for example for police, you speak of Caucasian face, so I think it's really considered European...

Air France Long Haul operations are divided into 6 "Sectors" :

FRA = Domestic
EUR = Europe/North Africa
APE = Asia/Pacific
AME = Americas
AMO = Africa/Middle East
COI = Caribbean/Indian Ocean

Unlike TLV, Managed by the "sector" EUR and is considered as a "European fligh", EVN was attributed to the AMO sector as it is considered long haul for the Crew management/rules, but operated by an A320 "Europe config", like AMM and DAM.

Thank you for this really good fact

Does AFs 1x weekly services make any good profit.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8): Does AFs 1x weekly services make any good profit.

1 x Weekly to LAD is very profitable. AF, just like other airlines would like to add more frequencies, but is restricted by the Angola Government.

The 1 x Weekly flight to JIB is also profitable because JIB has an important French Military Base.

Note that with 97,61% of its long haul flights being NONSTOP, Air France is the European airline offering the most nonstop flights.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): ATL : 1 x Daily A343

Next summer, Air France will bring its First Class product back to Atlanta after a couple of seasons of absence as the single AF operated flight will feature the B772ER rather than the B744, which is operating the route this summer.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): PVG : 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

Also next summer, AF will finally increase CDG PVG to twice daily, for a total of 14 weekly B772ER roundtrips.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): BKK : 1 x Daily B744 SGN : 4 x Weekly B744 - 1 STOP BKK - HAN : 3 x Weekly B744 - 1 STOP BKK -

If and when the Vietnamese government lifts its ridiculous restrictions on the AF service there, forcing the airline to serve both SGN and HAN, I could envisage a return of the nonstop CDG SGN services, at least during winter time. The B744 via BKK isn't the best of solutions and it is often very hard to find seats on these services.

HB-IWC,

Anything on AF's 4th YULCDG proposal?

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 12): Anything on AF's 4th YULCDG proposal?

4th what? flight per day in summer? with the A380 coming next summer i doubt it...

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): ATL : 1 x Daily A343

Wow.. I didnt know that Atlanta demand drops so much in the Winter Time vs Summer Time

Summer 2007

2x Delta Air Lines 767-400
1x Air France 747-400

vs
1x Delta Air Lines 767-400
1x Delta Air Lines 767-300
1x Air France A340-300

-JD

YULYMX,

Firstly the A380 is not comingtill 2009 or later (prolly 2010)

Secondly, AF's mentionned to its employees the possibility of a 4th flight.

FLYSSC great JOB. Very nice and through!!!!

Seems like there is a reduction in service to JFK for the winter. Is that permanent or just for the winter times.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): BLR : 1 x Daily B772ER

So BLR gets upgraded from A332 to B772ER? good move!

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 13): 4th what? flight per day in summer? with the A380 coming next summer i doubt it...

The A380 was initially planned for the summer 2008 but is delayed to summer 2009, so a 4th Daily frequency to YUL was planned for the summer 2008. To be confirmed ....

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11): If and when the Vietnamese government lifts its ridiculous restrictions on the AF service there, forcing the airline to serve both SGN and HAN, I could envisage a return of the nonstop CDG SGN services, at least during winter time. The B744 via BKK isn't the best of solutions and it is often very hard to find seats on these services.

AF wanted to serve SGN Nonstop from CDG, but not HAN.
The Vietnamese Gov. said : "OK for SGN nonstop ONLY if HAN is served also nonstop". That's why AF served both Nonstop for one season only, as the money made on SGN was lost on the much less popular HAN.

BKK should be one of the first destination to receive the new B77W 2 Class that will replace the B744 starting 2009.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7): Air France Long Haul operations are divided into 6 "Sectors" : FRA = Domestic

That must be the shortest long haul ever!

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): B77W = B777-300ER – 23 aircraft - CDG = 8P/67J/235Y , ORY = 14J/36S/422M -

Why the difference in class codes between CDG and ORY based a/c? I assume M is equivalent to Y (coach/economy class) but what about S-class? is it equivalent to premium economy? If so, I didn't know AF offer an intermediate product between J and Y

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 20):

It's Alizée Class, an upgraded economy class only available on DOM-TOM (French Overseas Territories) flights from ORY.

Quoting AF777300ER (Reply 21):

Can you describe what features are upgrade? seat pitch? width? meal service? leg rest?.........

Quoting AF777300ER (Reply 2): Regarding CAY from ORY, I thought that is has been turned to B777-300 ER from this spring. So they return to A 340-200 from end of October ?

It is been a long time since AF does not operate A340-200 anymore ...

I think you mistyped and you wanted to say "A340-300" ...

LePousson

Quoting LePousson (Reply 23):

Right. It's A343.

Thank you FlySSC and HB-IWC for your always very interesting information  

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11): If and when the Vietnamese government lifts its ridiculous restrictions on the AF service there, forcing the airline to serve both SGN and HAN, I could envisage a return of the nonstop CDG SGN services, at least during winter time. The B744 via BKK isn't the best of solutions and it is often very hard to find seats on these services

Agreed but I think it's nice having AF serving both cities. It would be bad if AF stops to serve HAN just to have SGN non-stop. Or could it be a CDG-SGN-HAN-CDG 4x weekly and CDG-HAN-SGN-CDG 3x weekly ?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11): The B744 via BKK isn't the best of solutions and it is often very hard to find seats on these services.

I just booked a CDG-BKK round trip on AF in january in J class and I was amazed to see on the seat map that, on the days I'm travelling, about half of the J seats were already booked 5 months before. The loads on these flights are very high every time I fly this route

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 22): Quoting AF777300ER (Reply 21): Can you describe what features are upgrade? seat pitch? width? meal service? leg rest?.........

From AF website:
http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local/...=cccfaddljglmgdgcefecekedgfndgfo.0

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 22):

Alizée Class : priority check-in and arrival, more FB miles, front of the aircraft, 36 seats, larger seats, more space for the legs, 123° angle, a better travel kit, a welcome punch, choice of meals between traditionnal or creole ones, fine dishes.

It's available on all flights to PTP, FDF, CAY till the end of summer it seems, RUN, HAV, Punta Cana and Santo Domingo. I think it's not available to SXM, I've already gone there and I've been upgraded to Business from Economy, no Alizée.

Thanks for the update!

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): GRU : 2 x Daily (A332 + B77W) GIG : 2 x Daily (A332 + B744)

FlySSC, last month seems that GRU would receive 3 to 4 times a week the A343 replacing the A332 during the IATA winter. AF changed this ?

And the second daily service to GIG seems to continue during the IATA summer but as a 5x weekly flight. Any comments about when the 744 will be replaced ?

Felipe

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11): Next summer, Air France will bring its First Class product back to Atlanta after a couple of seasons of absence as the single AF operated flight will feature the B772ER rather than the B744, which is operating the route this summer.

wow, that's quite a drop in capacity, isn't it? I thought the 744 was nearly always full....

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 22): Can you describe what features are upgrade?

I just flew the M class on a 773ER ORY-NCE : the seat looks sort of similar to a regular AF eco seat, except for the headrest which is more comfy and the color/fabric scheme that looks more sophisticated; the screen of the PTV is much bigger and so is the footrest.
you have to keep in mind that on the french overseas network the standard eco seats are smaller: config is 3-4-3 on the French overseas network specially designed 773ER

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): Here is the Air France Long Haul program for the next winter season 2007/2008. - Only flights operated by Air France itself are listed. - All flights are NONSTOP unless indicated.

Thanks for the informations mate !

As always it's crystal clear  

FB.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): BOG : 1 x Daily A343

It seems that BOG is stuck with the A343. Even though AF's loads on the route are 88.4% in the first half of this year (90% in June alone), and that will only increase as the the year progresses. I have also heard complaints from business passengers about them being downgraded for lack of J capacity on some flights.

But a 747 might be too big, and I cannot see any other suitable aircraft, as those with too large a business section, or P would probably not be appropriate.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): B77W = B777-300ER – 23 aircraft - CDG = 8P/67J/235Y , ORY = 14J/36S/422M -

When are the 77Ws configued in 2 classes materialising? Do we know the J/Y split? Or what can we expect?

[Edited 2007-08-20 23:51:36]

I worked for Air France Cargo in Amsterdam until last February and i'm very surprised to see this much aircraft changes. If I remember correctly, the following destinations were served differently.

YUL : was at least served with one 747 daily

ORD : was a daily service, AF050 if i remember correctly

SEA : all new!!

BOS : A340 instead of Daily B744 and at least 10 x weekly

PHL : daily AF366

JFK : 6 x Daily and now only 4 (B772ER + B772ER + A332 + B77W)

EWR : was served at least 10 x weekly AF016 + AF018



*SOUTH AMERICA & CARIBBEAN*

GRU : 2 x Daily (at least with one B747 daily)

GIG : was 1 x Daily (B747)

* AFRICA *

NKC : before February also served with AF332?

BKO : changed from 4 x weekly to daily service

ABJ : is 1 x Daily A343, was 6 x weekly

BGF : is 1 x Weekly A332, was 2 or 3 x weekly

FIH : is 3 x Weekly A332, was at 4 x weekly also with AF340-300

JNB : is 2 x Daily (B77W + B77W), was served with at least

THR : is 4 x Weekly A343, was at least 5 x weekly


*ASIA*

BOM : is 1 x Daily B77W, was AF340-300 or B744


Remarkable:
I really miss a lot of pax B744 in this new scheme; is that true and are those giants replaced by especially B77W??



KL1291

Yup, very surprising to see JFK going down from 6 to 4 flights, and losing the 747!

Great to see they kept the lovely 77W on the CDG-BEY route!

Had the chance to fly this aircraft twice in J and once in Y, impeccable service and the planes were new at the time (2006).

How is the BEY route doing. Apparently this year even during the summer period, loads were not at 100% and they didn't bring in a single additional flight despite MEA swapping the A321 with an A332 on the AF568/ME 210 flight.

FLYSSC, any info on this?

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 34): Yup, very surprising to see JFK going down from 6 to 4 flights, and losing the 747!

AF 747s aren't configured with a high-density premium layout, so it's a better sign for AF to be operating 777s than 747s to JFK...

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 34): Yup, very surprising to see JFK going down from 6 to 4 flights, and losing the 747!

I mentioned this would probably happen in a previous post in another similar thread. They'll probably get the 747 back in the spring or summer and bring JFK back to 6X daily as this happened last year, to answer Planetime's question. I thought AF only had 3X daily CDG-JFK last winter alongside DL's daily 763.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): YUL : 1 x Daily A343 + 1 x Daily B77W

I assume then the 3rd daily is only during the summer?

Quoting BA (Reply 38): I assume then the 3rd daily is only during the summer?

BA,

AF does drop the 3rd daily flight around September 15 and bring it back late in May or beginning of June. So does AC with the second flight (AC884-AC885) unless they change their mind recently. Correct me if I'm wrong.

YUL is still well serve to CDG during the low season period with Air Canada, Air France, Zoom and Air Transat. Can any of you tell me what the loads look like on these flights during the low season period?

Yan

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 25): It would be bad if AF stops to serve HAN just to have SGN non-stop. Or could it be a CDG-SGN-HAN-CDG 4x weekly and CDG-HAN-SGN-CDG 3x weekly ?

I believe AF would opt for a scheme in which SGN would be served nonstop, at least in winter, whereas HAN would continue to be served as a tag on to BKK. The Vietnamese government, however, is forcing AF to offer nonstops to both destinations, which is just not profitable for the airline.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): I really miss a lot of pax B744 in this new scheme; is that true and are those giants replaced by especially B77W??

Compared to last winter, three B744 frames will be removed from the schedules next winter, for a total of 13 vs last year's 16 aircraft operational in the passenger fleet. F-GISA/B/E have been or will be converted to cargo configuration.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): ORD : 6 x Weekly A332

....oohhh..I can't wait to see the A332 @ ORD..  

Hi,

What about SFO for April 2008?

Pierre j'ai perdu votre adresse électronique, pouvez vous me contacter SVP.

DID747    

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 31):

Thanks a lot FLYSSC , I agree with Flying Belgian, "It is Crystal Clear" .

For me next september it will be CDG-SFO by B744 and next october
LAX-CDG by B773ER Yesss .

Have all a very good day,

Pat747

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18): BKK should be one of the first destination to receive the new B77W 2 Class that will replace the B744 starting 2009

Is there any info available on whether this plane will match the cabin config of the new KLM 2-class 77W?
Are there such plans?

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18): BKK should be one of the first destination to receive the new B77W 2 Class that will replace the B744 starting 2009.

Will this continue to be seasonal with a mix of a smaller aircraft operating the European Summer services (A343), or could it be year round?

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 25): I just booked a CDG-BKK round trip on AF in january in J class and I was amazed to see on the seat map that, on the days I'm travelling, about half of the J seats were already booked 5 months before. The loads on these flights are very high every time I fly this route

AF seems to have high loads on the CDG-BKK routes, I wonder if a upgrade in services could be viable, perhaps more services in the European Winter?

Off to Asia again Goldorak, Good stuff  

Rob!   

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 29):

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 17): So BLR gets upgraded from A332 to B772ER? good move!

Does most of the BLR/ Indian operations depend on the US market or is there a large enough market in Frace/EU to justify this route.

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 19): That must be the shortest long haul ever!

Don't forget France's DOMs and TOMs. Regions that belong to France. Maybe those are considered as domestic flights even though they are longhaul flights.

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 19): That must be the shortest long haul ever!

Sorry .. FRA & EUR are of course the 2 Short/Medium Haul sectors.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28): FlySSC, last month seems that GRU would receive 3 to 4 times a week the A343 replacing the A332 during the IATA winter. AF changed this ?

On all routes, the A332 are regularly swaped for an A343 and vice versa, according the loads or aircraft availabilities. That's one of the interest of operating the two types : same cockpit and cabin crew.
I just come back from OUA, the flight back was supposed to be with an A332, and we were informed on the day of departure that it was changed for an A343 due to the high loads in Y.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): PHL : daily AF366

Never been DAILY during the winter season

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): EWR : was served at least 10 x weekly AF016 + AF018

That was a very long time ago, in the early 2000.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): JFK : 6 x Daily and now only 4 (B772ER + B772ER + A332 + B77W)

As usual. From summer to winter season.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): NKC : before February also served with AF332?

NKC was served 3 x Weekly with an A332, as an intermediate stop on the CDG-CKY flight.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): THR : is 4 x Weekly A343, was at least 5 x weekly

THR was 5 x Weekly A332, now 4 x Weekly A343

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): BGF : is 1 x Weekly A332, was 2 or 3 x weekly

Also as an intermediate stop to NDJ.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 46): Does most of the BLR/ Indian operations depend on the US market

Most PAX are connecting at CDG to/from U.S and Canada.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 44): Is there any info available on whether this plane will match the cabin config of the new KLM 2-class 77W? Are there such plans?

No info yet on the seat number configuration, probably something around 42J/365Y with a 2x3x2 seating in J and 3x3x3 in Y.

Quoting GoMEA (Reply 35): How is the BEY route doing. Apparently this year even during the summer period, loads were not at 100% and they didn't bring in a single additional flight despite MEA swapping the A321 with an A332 on the AF568/ME 210 flight.

As you said, the additional capacity nedded on CDG-BEY for the summer was provided by MEA; replacing the A321 by a second A332 on the night flight arriving early morning at Paris. This flights actually offers much more connections possibilities than the AF flight itself, arriving at 7:00PM.

The loads were kept high on the AF flight during the summer, AF changing sometimes the B77W for a B772ER but if the Lebanese kept returning to Lebanon for the summer holidays, the situation in the country of course cased a big drop of tourism.

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): SOUTH AMERICA & CARIBBEAN* GRU : 2 x Daily (at least with one B747 daily) GIG : was 1 x Daily (B747)

GRU does not receive B747 daily, only GIG. I believe you made reference to the weekly cargo service that nowadays on a non-regular basis also goes to GIG.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 48): On all routes, the A332 are regularly swaped for an A343 and vice versa, according the loads or aircraft availabilities. That's one of the interest of operating the two types : same cockpit and cabin crew. I just come back from OUA, the flight back was supposed to be with an A332, and we were informed on the day of departure that it was changed for an A343 due to the high loads in Y.

Thanks for the explanation, very informative, as usual.

Felipe

I find it amazing that ORD is not daily. Has the Europe-ORD market become oversaturated?

FlySCC, thanks for the update.

Interesting to to see MEX as an only 772ER station now for AF. Looks like front end capacity is being boosted in exchange for fewer seats in eco for the winter season. Is this the usual seasonal marketing scheme at AF in the case of MEX ?

It is wonderful to see Air France having a truly impressive longhaul network !!!

Best regards

Quoting AF777300ER (Reply 6): And on a geographical point of view, Armenia is in Europe, the border between Europe and Asia is normally Ural Mountains I think. And when you discribe a white people face, for example for police, you speak of Caucasian face, so I think it's really considered European...

Erevan is in Asia Minor. Location has nothing to do with race. A great deal of Turks, for example, look entirely European but that doesn't prevent much of Turkey to be in Asia Minor.

Quoting Jetskipper (Reply 50): I find it amazing that ORD is not daily. Has the Europe-ORD market become oversaturated?

ORD has never been profitable for AF. It has one of the lowest yield of all the North American routes.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 53): ORD has never been profitable for AF. It has one of the lowest yield of all the North American routes.

That is news to me... being Chicago the 3rd largest city in USA, and large business centre.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 54): That is news to me... being Chicago the 3rd largest city in USA, and large business centre.

ORD is already served 3 times daily by AA, UA and AF...

Quoting Planetime (Reply 54): That is news to me... being Chicago the 3rd largest city in USA, and large business centre.

Being the 3rd largest city is not enough reason for being profitable ...
"smaller" cities can sometimes be more profitable than big ones.

Though not a small city, IAD is a good example for AF :

IAD is not a Hub of any AF's partner. It is in fact the Hub of AF's biggest competitor : Star Alliance's UA & LH.
Despite this, AF offers 3 x Daily flights during the summer on CDG-IAD which is equivalent to the LH offer (2 x Daily FRA + 1 x Daily MUC).
For AF, IAD has one of the highest yield of all the North American network and is one of the most profitable route of this network (with JFK and YUL)

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 56): For AF, IAD has one of the highest yield of all the North American network and is one of the most profitable route of this network (with JFK and YUL)

IAD has in common with YUL and JFK that lots of Europeans live/work there, or have relatives there
while ORD is a more " american" city

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 49):

No, I didn't make reference to the Cargo service to GRU. I really made a enumaration just out of the head........little mistakes were logical with that.......
But I am very interested in the new Cargo scheme as well. Are there any news and/or remarkable changes in that also. Does anyone knowns that????

Boy, I miss those AFC days!!!!

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): GRU : 2 x Daily (at least with one B747 daily)

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 49): GRU does not receive B747 daily, only GIG.

Actually, GRU was one of the very first destination of Air France served by the B772ER back in 1998.

If I remember well, it was actually the third destination of AF's B772ER, after IAD and JFK.
the flight was routing CDG-GRU-GIG at that time.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 54): Quoting FlySSC (Reply 53): ORD has never been profitable for AF. It has one of the lowest yield of all the North American routes.

Are you sure about that? I don't know myself but I do find it strange that there was a point when we had twice daily service (A343 and B763) if the route was not profitable.

ORD was never served twice daily by AF.
It has been served by the B763, A343, and even B744Combi but never 2 x Daily.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 59): If I remember well, it was actually the third destination of AF's B772ER, after IAD and JFK. the flight was routing CDG-GRU-GIG at that time.

I remember CDG-EZE-SCL was served with B772ER. It was the only non-direct south-american routing I know....

KL1291

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 62): remember CDG-EZE-SCL was served with B772ER.

Still the same today.

During this summer program, SCL is served 3 x Weekly nonstop + 3 x Weekly via EZE. All flights are operated with B772ER.

Hello FlySSC,

Concerning frequencies between CDG and ORD, I'm afraid you're wrong : in 1999, I flew a CDG ORD in the morning (Dep Time 10:15 Arr Time 12:25) and I remenber that there was a second flight in the afternoon. These 2 flights were operated with 763 (J/Y configuration).

According to Galileo GDS, IAD will be served, for the first flight of the day (10:15), with 332 also, not only with 772. LBV will be serve on tuesday and friday with 77W.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 61): ORD was never served twice daily by AF.

Quoting SSCAF001 (Reply 64): Concerning frequencies between CDG and ORD, I'm afraid you're wrong : in 1999, I flew a CDG ORD in the morning (Dep Time 10:15 Arr Time 12:25) and I remenber that there was a second flight in the afternoon. These 2 flights were operated with 763 (J/Y configuration).

Dear FlySSC
this is the 1st time I see you giving a wrong info on AF on A.net  
I confirm also that ORD has been served twice daily by AF during 1 or 2 seasons around 1998 or 1999 with 2 the 5 B763 AF was operating at that time. I was flying this route quite often at that time and I remember that quite well.
I think UA has tried also to serve the route twice daily at about the same time as AF and it didn't last long too.
Amicalement
Goldorak   

and CDG-PHC Time Table is not yet in the Galileo GDS

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 66): I confirm also that ORD has been served twice daily by AF during 1 or 2 seasons around 1998 or 1999 with 2 the 5 B763 AF was operating at that time. I was flying this route quite often at that time and I remember that quite well.

And I remember quite well that at that time, we were staying sometimes 3 full days in Chicago, which means that the second flight was not 2 x DAILY. . . But I am getting old and might be wrong ....

for YUL..

AF reverts to AF344/345 as a 2-class 747-400 in February, at which point AF346/347 will go from B77W to B772

Way to go AF on flying nonstop daily to SCL for the first time ever. They will give IB a run for its money. Is there enough demand for AF to SCL, especially in light of IB stiff competition in what is a niche market for it?

Also, anybody knows how AF is doing in SSG? Judging by the fact that they're adding two weekly flights, I would think they're doing pretty well in this oil destination. I'm pretty sure IB will react by adding flights also, as it also considers this Spanish-speaking destination to be a niche market.

It appears that AF has more capacity to GIG than to GRU. That's odd, at least compared to other airlines. From their online timetable, it seems like they will scale GIG down during the Northern hemisphere summer though.

I think AF is the most global and diversified of all airlines, and according to me, they get the "palme d'or" ("the oscar") when it comes to the breadth and diversity of their network.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 69): But I am getting old and might be wrong ....

me too !   

Are there any considerations to upgrade AMM or TLV from A32S to Long haul equipment?

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 71): Way to go AF on flying nonstop daily to SCL for the first time ever. They will give IB a run for its money. Is there enough demand for AF to SCL, especially in light of IB stiff competition in what is a niche market for it?

AF is already serving SCL non-stop. This was in-fact the first winter (in Chile) with non-stop flights.
There certainly must be sufficient demand for SCL, otherwise AF wouldn't make the route non-stop.
Come on, IB stiff competition?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 74): AF is already serving SCL non-stop. This was in-fact the first winter (in Chile) with non-stop flights. There certainly must be sufficient demand for SCL, otherwise AF wouldn't make the route non-stop. Come on, IB stiff competition?

I know AF already flies to SCL nonstop but I said it will be their first time flying daily nonstop. Yes, indeed, when you consider that IB is practically the only European player there, that it operates an A346 there daily in Southern Hemisphere winter, that it has a geographical advantage (involves the least backtracking when connecting from anywhere in Europe), and that a large chunk of the traffic is actually between Chile and Spain itself, I consider that to be stiff competition.

AF used to fly F-GISA/B (mostly) to DEL. However, as HB-IWC states, they have become cargo now. Which configuration of the B744 will DEL see during the winter schedule?? I hope this time around each seat will have PTV's unlike the F-GISA i was on in January 2007.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 74): Come on, IB stiff competition?

If not mistaken, IB has the largest market share of all carriers between Europe and South America in total. Yes, I would consider that to be stiff competition. Brazil is one exception for historical/cultural/language reasons where TP has long been the largest Europe-Brazil operator and serves more destinations in Brazil than any other European carrier..

Quoting XA744 (Reply 51): Interesting to to see MEX as an only 772ER station now for AF. Looks like front end capacity is being boosted in exchange for fewer seats in eco for the winter season. Is this the usual seasonal marketing scheme at AF in the case of MEX ?

I agree. I love the AF 772s but it will be a bit sad to no longer see four-engined AF birds in MEX. The entire 772ER fleet is configured in 3-classes right?

Since AF started the daylight CDG-JNB flight how is it doing?

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 71): It appears that AF has more capacity to GIG than to GRU. That's odd, at least compared to other airlines. From their online timetable, it seems like they will scale GIG down during the Northern hemisphere summer though.

And they have stronger advance bookings to GIG. They expect to run only 6x weekly on the second flight, but even before begin they increased to daily. While you can find out lots of Z fares to GRU, it's almost impossible to book such fare to GIG. TP also keep more flights to GIG than GRU.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 74): AF is already serving SCL non-stop. This was in-fact the first winter (in Chile) with non-stop flights. There certainly must be sufficient demand for SCL, otherwise AF wouldn't make the route non-stop. Come on, IB stiff competition?

AF made a very smart move with the non-stop service SCL-CDG. LX/LH life become worst now with their one-stop service.


Felipe

[Edited 2007-08-23 06:53:58]

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 78): I agree. I love the AF 772s but it will be a bit sad to no longer see four-engined AF birds in MEX. The entire 772ER fleet is configured in 3-classes right?

Currently yes. But AF has ordered some new 77W which will be 2 class equipped (J / Y) to replace their current 744

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): SEA : 5 x Weekly A332

I knew about this reduction when service was launched in June, but I still find it interesting. It's no secret that Seattle-Europe traffic drops significantly during the winter, but why is AF reducing service off the bat without taking a stab at BA and SK (and to a lesser extent, SkyTeam partner NW) in this market? Are they just assuming that as the new show in town they'll be taking the biggest hit when traffic goes down in the winter?

I know BA reduces frequency in the winter as well, but they still keep LHR-SEA daily. I'm a bit surprised that AF isn't taking a chance to assert itself in a new (albeit seasonally challenging) market.

I am flying back from SGN in November, so around the equipement change (from A340 to B744).
What will be the 744 configuration on the bangkok route. Is it the version with economy on upper deck?

What are chances to reserve a seat in that premium spot (I am becoming silver during that flight)?

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 73): Are there any considerations to upgrade AMM or TLV from A32S to Long haul equipment?

The yield is too low on these destinations as well as DAM.
TLV went recently from 1 x Daily to 2 x Daily A320 with an early morning flight leaving TLV.

DAM & AMM were used to be served with A310 until the mid-90s, with lass frequencies, enroute stops, and were both loosing money...
The use of the A320 is a good compromise and enables AMM to be serve Daily nonstop, and DAM 4 x Weekly nonstop.
With the A310, flights were routing CDG-BEY-DAM or CDG-DAM-AMM.

Quoting SNBru (Reply 83): What will be the 744 configuration on the bangkok route. Is it the version with economy on upper deck?

The configuration is 40J/396Y. ALL the B744 have now 60 Y seats at the upper deck.

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 71): It appears that AF has more capacity to GIG than to GRU. That's odd, at least compared to other airlines

The market is different and the capacity type is also different with more "premium" seats offered to GRU : GRU is more a "business" destination while GIG is more "tourists". More seats to GIG but a lower yield.

Daily, AF will offer 8P / 107J / 414 Y to GRU and 80J / 575 Y to GIG.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 79): Since AF started the daylight CDG-JNB flight how is it doing?

The change of schedule attracted more connecting passengers and the results are not bad, considering that this is the "low" season in South Africa but AF wanted to anticipate the pullout of SAA from CDG next winter.

AF has flown 772 to ORD too and even back in 2001 AF had 2 daily flights to ORD at least suring summer :

View Large View Medium

Photo © Sam Chui

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 85): AF has flown 772 to ORD too and even back in 2001 AF had 2 daily flights to ORD at least suring summer :

This picture shows a B763, not a B772 ...

AF may have tested a second frequency to ORD (just like to SFO or EWR) during one or two seasons in the late 90s/early 2000s but this second flight was not Daily.
In the past 10 years, AF sent regularly B763, B744Combi, A343 and A332 to ORD.
The B772ER was sent from time to time but most of the time during "transition" periods between summer & winter programs like in 2002 :

View Large View Medium

Photo © Jonathan Icasas

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 86): This picture shows a B763, not a B772 ...

I know that the picture shows a 763 but look at the remark from Sam Chui : "One of 2 AF daily flights into ORD, another one being A343 late arrivals."

[Edited 2007-08-23 12:45:44]

Time Table for CDG-IAD in Februar 2008 :

01FEB08-28FEB08 MTWTFSS PARIS /WASHINGTON
03FEB 1.34567 CDG IAD 1015 1255 AF 28 772*C
27FEB 1234567 CDG IAD 1015 1255 AF 28 332*C
04FEB 26FEB 12.4567 CDG IAD 1015 1255 AF 28 332*C
1234567 CDG IAD 1640 1915 AF 26 772*C
END OF DISPLAY

It is shocking to hear that AF cant do better than 6x332 for ORD. Very Interesting!

SSC, can we expect any new India routes or additional frequencies?

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 86): This picture shows a B763, not a B772 ... AF may have tested a second frequency to ORD (just like to SFO or EWR) during one or two seasons in the late 90s/early 2000s but this second flight was not Daily. In the past 10 years, AF sent regularly B763, B744Combi, A343 and A332 to ORD. The B772ER was sent from time to time but most of the time during "transition" periods between summer & winter programs like in 2002 :

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 86): AF may have tested a second frequency to ORD (just like to SFO or EWR) during one or two seasons in the late 90s/early 2000s but this second flight was not Daily.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 69): And I remember quite well that at that time, we were staying sometimes 3 full days in Chicago, which means that the second flight was not 2 x DAILY

Okay, I didnt think that I was crazy. I do remember two AF frequencies to ORD. Clearly these were not permanent, but they did exist. And they were daily. The link below links to PR Newswire's April 1999 news release making the announcement.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-54357569.html

Thanks for posting the link FlyMD. It clarifies the ORD "question" and I was apparently wrong.

In this article, they mention KRK among the connections available at CDG ... I don't think AF ever flew to KRK, at least with its own plabes. Maybe a codeshare with LOT as they used to have to WAW ?

A lot of news about AF. Thank you.

Pierre, merci de me contacter, j'e n'ai plus vos coordonnées, désolé.

DID747

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): GRU : 2 x Daily (A332 + B77W) GIG : 2 x Daily (A332 + B744)

Very< good news for me and GIG. Makes it easier to get there. 

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 33): GRU : 2 x Daily (at least with one B747 daily)

Must have been some time when a 747 went to GRU.  

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 76): If not mistaken, IB has the largest market share of all carriers between Europe and South America in total.

Actually AF has the largest market share between Europe and South America. Both in the Mid and South Atlantic regions (as definied by the AEA - Airline European Association)

Mid Atlantic
AF
Passengers - 1.862.800
----
IB
Passengers - 1.709.200


South Atlantic
AF
Passengers - 1.215.700
---
IB
Passengers - 886.000

Source: AEA STAR06 report

Quoting FLYSSC (Reply 90): Thanks for posting the link FlyMD. It clarifies the ORD "question" and I was apparently wrong.

Not a problem. We are all here just to share information and indulge our favorite hobby.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 14): Wow.. I didnt know that Atlanta demand drops so much in the Winter Time vs Summer Time

MEX demand drops as well for AF...

MEX: 2 x Daily (B772ER + B744 + A343)

To:

MEX: 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

But AM will be upgrading CDG-MEX this winter...

MEX: 1 x Daily B762ER

To:

MEX: 2 x Weekly B772ER + 5 x Weekly B762ER

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 77): I agree. I love the AF 772s but it will be a bit sad to no longer see four-engined AF birds in MEX. The entire 772ER fleet is configured in 3-classes right?

AF 744F is still flying to MEX, (almost) daily, I think this flight will continue

Fyano

[Edited 2007-08-25 01:49:23]

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 95): MEX demand drops as well for AF... MEX: 2 x Daily (B772ER + B744 + A343) To: MEX: 1 x Daily B772ER + 5 x Weekly B772ER

But you can not compare a summer program to a winter program.

You have to compare winter 2006/2007 with the future winter 2007/2008, and if you do so, I don't think there is a drop in the AF offer to MEX.