Here are some interesting figures concerning Air France-KLM results on the 2006/2007 year activity :

- 73,5 Millions of passengers were transported, on 2500 Daily flights.

- AFKL is the first network between Europe and the rest of the world :

AFKL : 111 Long Haul destinations
BA : 86 Long Haul destinations
LH-LX : 78 Long Haul destinations

- AF & KLM Complementarity :

On the 111 Long Haul destinations served by AF & KL, only 32 are served by both cariers, 30 are KLM only destinations, 49 are AF only destinatinations.

On the 126 Medium Haul destinations served by AF & KL, 45 are served by both AF & KL, 24 are served by KLM only, while 57 are served by AF only.


- AFKL offers the highest number of connection opportunities Long Haul/Short-Medium within 2 hours :

AF : 20695 at CDG + KL 7195 at AMS = 28000
LH : 13020 at FRA + 4110 at MUC + LX : 3097 at ZRH = 20000
BA : 7070 at LHR.


1st Turnover in the world, in B.€ : 23,1 (+ 7,6% compared to 2005/2006)

LH+LX = 20,1
AA = 17,7
JL = 15,4
UA = 15
DL = 13,7
BA = 12,5

Growth of the Turnover :

+ 28,5 % for Latin and South America
+ 13,3 % for Asia
+ 10,5 % for the USA
+ 6,6 % for Africa
+ 3,7 % For Caribbean/Indian Ocean


10th years in a row of positive results for AF, 3rd year in a row for AFKL. At the end of this 3 years period, AFKL turnover has increased by 30%

The Operating income is reaching 1240 Millions € (+ 32,5 % compared to 2005/2006).

The financial debt has decreased and the cash available for the group is reaching 3,9 B.€, + a line of Credit of 1,7 B.€.

View Large View Medium Photo © Gilles Bussutil

View Large View Medium Photo © Richard Austen

Yes, But BA have Terminal 5, thats gonna save them!!!!!

Fantastic results, well done to both.

And to think that AF was on the verge of collapse not too many years ago.

Also good to see that they have managed to build a network that allows each carrier to complement the other rather than for one carrier to dominate the relationship.

It is also notable that AF and KL have the deepest relationships with its US carriers of any other EU-US carrier relationship and it is deepening further as AF and DL emulate and enhance the KL-NW relationship.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2): Also good to see that they have managed to build a network that allows each carrier to complement the other rather than for one carrier to dominate the relationship.

This is indeed one of the major achievements. It also allows both carriers to serve thin destinations, to be sold through sales channels of both. A recent addition is Linkoping in Sweden LPI, that will get 2x daily F70 service. KLM is the largest intercontinental carrier after SAS in Scandinavia, serving 12 airports in the 4 countries. Also long-haul, they have rationalized and with bilateral air relations relaxing with more and more countries, they will continue to do so.

Impressive figures.

I wonder if they've ever considered a hub in ATH. It's really well situated for operations to the Middle East and Asia and I imagine a well run airline like AF/KL would have no problem outcompeting Olympic. I imagine a takeover of Olympic is another possibility if they got some concessions from their unions and the government.

A joint AFKL order was recently announced for new regional aircraft to start replacing the aging Fokkers; E190s to supplant F100s plus some F70s from Regional to bolster the current fleet. KLM's DC-10s are long gone, the 767s have been replaced by A330s and the classic 747s replaced by B777s so the long haul fleet is not rotting away as you so eloquently put it!

[Edited 2007-08-31 11:02:54]

OK not DC10 there MD11s either way their are large MD's still carrying KLM's logo's at AMS last week and they are older than the trees blowing round the airport.

I have the misoppourtunity of flying KLM's rickets every week...

10 E190's aint going to replace an entire F100 / F70 fleet.. and also note the F70's being dumped in AMS from AF is not a sign of fleet renewal just humping rubbish together in 1 heap.

I bet there is not a 1 for 1 replacement of E190/70 for F70-F100...if it's closer to 2:1 then youve got to wonder.

They might have the odd new 737NG, but the older ones with their threadbare seats don't give the impression of an airline in investment.


I bet yah... 5 - 10 years KLM will be a neat new regional airline, with a dozen or so long hauls and a high speed train to Paris.

The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I have the misoppourtunity of flying KLM's rickets every week...

Well then fly someone else if it's that bad! I am also on the blue birds 1-2 times a week and while hiccups happen, the planes are not rickety, overly dirty nor do they give me an unsafe impression.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): 10 E190's aint going to replace an entire F100 / F70 fleet.. and also note the F70's being dumped in AMS from AF is not a sign of fleet renewal just humping rubbish together in 1 heap.

Well then I suppose it was deemed unnecessary to replace them all in one go, for whatever reason that may be. Nonetheless, they will all be replaced!

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): They might have the odd new 737NG, but the older ones with their threadbare seats don't give the impression of an airline in investment.

Again, the classic 737s will also be replaced in due time! Aircraft are incredibly expensive and placing large orders ties up lots of capital, KLM is undergoing fleet renewal gradually. Keep the faith, a change is gonna come!

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): OK not DC10 there MD11s either way their are large MD's still carrying KLM's logo's at AMS last week and they are older than the trees blowing round the airport.

You might check your facts.

The single oldest MD-11 has been delivered in 1993; 5 have been delivered in 1994, 2 in 1995, 1 in 1997 and the last one in 1998. Not really old. As a comparison, BA has a handful of 1989 744s, and 1990 767s. Lufthansa's first A340-313s have also been delivered in 1993. AF operates some 744s delivered in 1991.

The cabin of the MD-11s indeed is in need of replacement, but that is currently being done. Due to tight scheduling however, this isn't going too fast.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): 10 E190's aint going to replace an entire F100 / F70 fleet.. and also note the F70's being dumped in AMS from AF is not a sign of fleet renewal just humping rubbish together in 1 heap.

Transferring F70s to KLM might also well be considered as rationalizing. 15 F100s will be leaving, and replaced by the 10 E190s that have been ordered, and 5 F70s. That is indeed a small reduction in capacity, albeit not shocking. As I said earlier, KLM has a history of ordering small amounts every time. KLM has 9 options for the E190s. They currently have 20 F100s, so the options can (and probably will) be used to replace the 5 remaing F100s in a later stage.

The F70s are a younger than the F100s and have some useful lifespan left. It's no surprise at all that they will all be based at AMS, as all facilities are here.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): but the older ones with their threadbare seats don't give the impression of an airline in investment.

Those are the aircraft that will be replaced by the 737-700s on order. I agree completely the older 737s have a worn-out cabin, and it is true that KLM has had a period of lower investments. Currently, investments seem quite good.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

Possibly. The most important thing, however, is that they just cannot transfer everything to CDG because it lacks the capacity for it. Of course, CDG is expanding but so is AF-KL. For the coming decade at least, they need the Amsterdam hub for the capacity. Whether in 5 years the aircraft will still be blue is a more interesting question and the risk to lose the KLM brand is IMO higher than to lose the AMS hub.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

I don't know about that. The Renault/Nissan deal has been hugely successful. While the French have many stereotypes, a lack of investment abroad from French companies is hardly a common one.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I bet yah... 5 - 10 years KLM will be a neat new regional airline, with a dozen or so long hauls and a high speed train to Paris.

If that is the case then why have they not increased their regional jet orders? The Randstad is a lucrative market with the 5th largest metropolitan economy in Europe. I would also imagine that quite a few more people live within a 150 km hour drive from AMS than from CDG. Amsterdam is far too valuable a market to give up in the name of rationalization or nationalism.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I bet yah... 5 - 10 years KLM will be a neat new regional airline, with a dozen or so long hauls and a high speed train to Paris.

You clearly didn't made any research before starting to post in this topic...
The highspeed rail link between Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris is about to complete in a few years and was already planned longgggggggg before AF start to think about a take over of KL.

Maybe it's a better idea to start you're interest in aviation at the Heard and McDonald Islands first before complaining about the aviation in the big world....

Regards, Flyingfool

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I bet yah... 5 - 10 years KLM will be a neat new regional airline, with a dozen or so long hauls and a high speed train to Paris. The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

What are you, Jwenting in disguise?

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

It's also said that because the Air France management is well aware of the importance of national feelings, relations, etc, the merger works so well: the French understand that the Dutch appreciate to maintain the KLM identity, because they would feel the same. BA, earlier a likely partner to take KLM over, wanted to change the name to BA right away.

Another thing is that Air France decided to start the Transavia business model in France, to be started up by the Dutch Transavia managers because of their experience with the business model. For me, this is another proof that AF-KL gives more priority to business than to national feelings.

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): + 28,5 % for Latin and South America

This perhaps shows where AF-KL got it right while the others havent'!  

Rgs,

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland.

cultural bias and old fashion prejudices....
as mentioned earlier, do you know Nissan is actually the property of Renault an ex-state company? doesn't Nissan have multi billion investment in the US and Asia? did they anounce any Nissan plant closure like Sunderland in the UK with production transferred to France???
I could send you a list of examples

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 17): What are you, Jwenting in disguise?

  

Quoting Joost (Reply 18): Another thing is that Air France decided to start the Transavia business model in France, to be started up by the Dutch Transavia managers because of their experience with the business model. For me, this is another proof that AF-KL gives more priority to business than to national feelings.

bedankt Joost: perfect other example to show the French are not anymore clinging to wearing Beret with Baguette under their arms ( weel at least not all of them)  

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 20): The decision to buy the B787 or A350 will be taken next year. The B787 is given largely favourite.

That's interesting. Where did you get this infomation?

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 22): That's interesting. Where did you get this infomation?

In an internal AF publication.

" Sur l'achat du B787 : Aucune décision n'a encore été prise actuellement, et il sera mis en concurrence avec l'A350 en 2008".

Concerning the possible choice of the B787, several rumors have been around within AF in the past months, and I heard myself from the Executive Chief of Air Operation that, until now, the B787 seems to suit better AF's needs.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 23): " Sur l'achat du B787 : Aucune décision n'a encore été prise actuellement, et il sera mis en concurrence avec l'A350 en 2008".

"And about the purchase of the 787 : no decision has been taken yet, and it (787) will be put on concurrence with the A350 in 2008"

That is what this sentence said, nothing more. It feels that it was taken out of context, as it seems that someone was asking if AF would purchase the 787 in the future. The same reply would have been made with a question concerning the A350. That was a very neutral answer.

[Edited 2007-08-31 16:08:00]

"Started with 4 B738, the fleet will very soon get 3 more aircraft, then reach 12 aircraft. Ultimately, a fleet of 15 aircraft is now planned but will not exceed this number, following an agreement signed with AF pilots Unions.
From ORY, Transavia-France now flies to Agadir, Catania, Djerba, Gerona, Iraklio, Monastir, Oujda, Palermo and Oporto.
6 new destinations will be added next winter : Hurghada, Luxor, Granada, Ouarzazate, Fes & Tozeur ."

Oops... FLYSSC I didn't see your post so I posted a new topic on this. Apologies !

A.

Quoting Joost (Reply 18): It's also said that because the Air France management is well aware of the importance of national feelings, relations, etc, the merger works so well: the French understand that the Dutch appreciate to maintain the KLM identity, because they would feel the same. BA, earlier a likely partner to take KLM over, wanted to change the name to BA right away.

Why would they endanger the profitablility of the Airline in changing a system that his working perfectly the way it is ?
J.C Spinetta may be French, he is everything but stupid ! He knows perfectly where are the interests of AF and KL. He was smart enough to link the two airlines in such a way that in a present situation, AF would not be so profitable without KLM, and KLM would not certainly be so profitable either without AF.
The purpose was to create a situation where BOTH airlines would take advantages from the other, and not a situation where one airline would grow in "sucking" the blood of the other one like a vampire.

There will probably be a name change in a close future, that is part of the next stage of the merging process. But it will be not KLM becoming Air France, or Air France becoming KLM.
It will be complete new name, or, more likely, the name of the holding "Air France-KLM" will become also the common commercial brand for the two airlines who have all interests to continue to use their legacy worldwide renowned names.

Quoting HECA (Reply 26): It has been indicated earlier that an order for B787/A350 would be a joint order by AF-KL.

All future orders will be made for the AF-KL.

Quoting HECA (Reply 26): Which specific needs are better catered by the B787 than the A350?

The biggest advantage in favour of the B787 is that a version will be available with GE engines, which is not the case for the A350 ... until now. And that's why I used "until now" in my sentence in the Reply#23, because this "detail" could make the choice balance in favour of one or the other.

AF has now its entire fleet powered by GE engines, and this is the source of savings for Millions of € in spares, and maintenance.
In a recent past, AF already chose the B777 against the A346 for this same reason

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27): J.C Spinetta may be French, he is everything but stupid !

Hasn't he just "celebrated" his tenth year at the helm of AF ?

Quoting Col (Reply 1): Yes, But BA have Terminal 5, thats gonna save them!!!!!

Yeah, a new terminal will really save the day. Suddenly LHR isn't slot controlled anymore....

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I have the misoppourtunity of flying KLM's rickets every week...

Why not fly something else? Saves us from your bitching!

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): and also note the F70's being dumped in AMS from AF is not a sign of fleet renewal just humping rubbish together in 1 heap.

Perhaps because the F70s are moneymakers?

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 17): What are you, Jwenting in disguise?

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27): It will be complete new name, or, more likely, the name of the holding "Air France-KLM" will become also the common commercial brand for the two airlines who have all interests to continue to use their legacy worldwide renowned names.

This I'm not so sure about. AF/KL marketing is becoming tighter, but I don't see them going under one umbrella. 2 brandnames make a lot more sense in my opinion.

Glad i'm not the only one that thinks this guy is on another planet!

Regards

Mike

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter): AFKL : 111 Long Haul destinations

... And we can now summarise... AF/KL... " Le Plus Réseau du Monde ".

In French sounds even more appealing and definitive !!!...   

Best regards

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 29): The biggest advantage in favour of the B787 is that a version will be available with GE engines, which is not the case for the A350 ... until now. And that's why I used "until now" in my sentence in the Reply#23, because this "detail" could make the choice balance in favour of one or the other. AF has now its entire fleet powered by GE engines, and this is the source of savings for Millions of € in spares, and maintenance. In a recent past, AF already chose the B777 against the A346 for this same reason

Thanks for the "minor" detail  
KL too operates an entire long haul fleet powered by GE engines so the B787 indeed seems to be preferred over the A350

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 17): Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11): I bet yah... 5 - 10 years KLM will be a neat new regional airline, with a dozen or so long hauls and a high speed train to Paris. The french are not exactly known for their oversea's investments at the expense of their own home comforts.. the money will be spent in France before it's spent in Holland. What are you, Jwenting in disguise?

Scorpio, never mind StarGoldLHR. It is clear nothing good will come out of this person when it comes down to KL/AF.

A388

FlySCC,


Do you know what will be the next city to be opened from CDG, some people say PTY, REC, DFW, YYV...
Regards

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 43): Air France/KLM statistically have the poorest safety record of all European airlines, oh BA has the best by the way

So, what's your point ? What is the relation of your (very poor) statement with the subject of this topic ?
You seem to be quite "new" on this forum ... The purpose is to debate on subjects about our common hobby : Civil Aviation.
You are free to like or dislike this or that airline or that aircraft. In that case, explain clearly your views, your arguments, and your sources. Simply repeating "BA is the best, others are bad" is a bit simplistic ...
You can always start a Topic on "AF-KL poorest sefety record in Europe" (which is factually wrong) if it is so important for you.

Quoting Jobalas (Reply 46): Do you know what will be the next city to be opened from CDG, some people say PTY, REC, DFW, YYV...

Nothing is confirmed yet.
The "serious" rumors are talking about PTY, SJO, DFW. That was the only 3 destinations that I saw written in internal AF newspapers.

REC was rumored, especailly among AF staff in Brazil but that was already a while ago and I heard nothing more about it.
I doubt YVR will be opened soon, for a simple reason : AF has no right to operate flights to the West Canadian coast, as part of the bilateral agreement France/Canada.
If ever AF was granted Traffic Rights, KLM is already on the route and I am not sure there is enough demand for a second flight.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 28): I doubt YVR will be opened soon, for a simple reason : AF has no right to operate flights to the West Canadian coast, as part of the bilateral agreement France/Canada.

This might become reality quite quick, though. After the successful negotiations between the USA and the EU, Canadian politicians have indicated to be interested in a similar open-skies agreement with the European Union. I think this would be very good for both parties; AC would be able to benefit even more from the StarAlliance partners, and OneWorld and SkyTeam carriers can also build up more presence.

I don't expect (in an open-skies situation) a CDG-YVR flight anytime soon indeed, except maybe some 1 or 2-weekly Air Transat summer flights. Even KLM cannot support a year-round daily flight. When choosing between AMS and CDG, I have the impression that AMS is preferable, due to the VFR-relations between the Netherlands and Canada - almost everybody in the Netherlands has an odd uncle or cousin in western Canada and with Christmas and during the summer there is a large demand: KLM operates daily, and also MP and TS usually fly into YVR, YEG or YYC; some on triangle flights.

Even a highspeed train cannot replace AMS. The travel time to CDG is simply way to long, Brussels and Dusseldorf are the 2 airports attacking AMS currently as they are most proximate (mind-you, Brussels is right on that high-speed line between Paris and Amsterdam). Both airports are growing ( partially caused by the gap Sabena made) but when you consider LH will soon be stationing A340's at DUS I think LH is more of a threath than AF will be.

It's all about money and demand. Why shut-down a route like AMS-JFK or AMS-SIN if it generates money? I think the success is that they have 2 big hubs which enables both companies to operate routes like the new route to Linkoping.

For low-demand destinations you need a good hub and good feeders, AMS and CDG do this quite well. This way they can build-up a really neat network.

I had a very good experience flying with AF (both short and long-haul) and though I have never flown KLM I have the impression AF outscores KLM easily in service. If they align their product to be similar to each other they may get a whole lot further.

Where is Jwenting for the final word on this subject? We need his insightful in-put.

Very good research by FlySSC

[Edited 2007-09-01 15:07:54]

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 30): Even a highspeed train cannot replace AMS. The travel time to CDG is simply way to long

Paris - Lyon is 465 km and the TGV covers the distance in 1h50 .
Amsterdam - Roissy CDG is 490 km. With High speed tracks all the way, a Direct TGV would take around the same time considering the new technology and improvements made with the new generation of TGV ...

Today, AMS-CDG is scheduled 1h20 (the flight time itself is around 45 minutes). I remember once I flew CDG-AMS : total flight time = 1h27 minutes : Taxiing at CDG 21 minutes + flight : 42 minutes + taxiing at AMS : 24 minutes ...

Considering the increase of Traffic, the slots restrictions and the costs of the ATC delays, the TGV is certainly one of the solutions to de-congest airports, and just like Brussels or London, Amsterdam is well within the perimeter where the TGV can easily compete with the plane.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 32): Direct TGV would take around the same time considering the new technology and improvements made with the new generation of TGV ...

That is quite optimistic. In 2010, when the track needs to be fully operational and the trains need to be delivered, travel time Amsterdam Centraal-Paris Nord will be 3:13. Cuting the Amsterdam-Centraal part (Schiphol is the 2nd stop) saves 15 minutes, but CDG on the other hand is 9 minutes further than Paris Nord, so total travel time will be a bit more than 3 hours. Due to all kind of contracts, all trains need to stop in Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels. Before 2030, travel time won't be shorter than 3 hours. For O&D-traffic the train will defenitely beat flying AMS-CDG, but I'm not too sure what it will do with connecting passengers.

Nonetheless, AMS-BRU will likely get the chop.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 32): Paris - Lyon is 465 km and the TGV covers the distance in 1h50 . Amsterdam - Roissy CDG is 490 km. With High speed tracks all the way, a Direct TGV would take around the same time considering the new technology and improvements made with the new generation of TGV ...

FlySSC, I am very sorry to disappoint you and tell you that the Dutch and Belgians have severally scr*wed up with the TGV Nord. A lot of money has been spent on the latest technology and millions of euro's wasted on the project. The whole thing is delayed until further notice and the trains are expected to run at full speed only in 2009.
But now the best thing, once finished the journey time between Amsterdam Schiphol and Paris Charles de Gaulle will be... 3 hours!!! Yes, you read it well my friend, once the train is running at full speed in 2009, it takes you 3 hours to get to CDG from AMS (and 3h15 to get from Amsterdam Centraal to Paris Gare du Nord).

It's another example of the sheer incompetence of the Dutch that we are displaying lately. It will take a long time before the train becomes a true alternative on this route, if ever.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34): FlySSC, I am very sorry to disappoint you and tell you that the Dutch and Belgians have severally scr*wed up with the TGV Nord. A lot of money has been spent on the latest technology and millions of euro's wasted on the project. The whole thing is delayed until further notice and the trains are expected to run at full speed only in 2009. But now the best thing, once finished the journey time between Amsterdam Schiphol and Paris Charles de Gaulle will be... 3 hours!!! Yes, you read it well my friend, once the train is running at full speed in 2009, it takes you 3 hours to get to CDG from AMS (and 3h15 to get from Amsterdam Centraal to Paris Gare du Nord). It's another example of the sheer incompetence of the Dutch that we are displaying lately. It will take a long time before the train becomes a true alternative on this route, if ever.

I cannot agree more. And besides the screw-up by the Dutch (and the Belgians by the way) the price for the TGV ride is too high.

Quoting Joost (Reply 33): That is quite optimistic. In 2010, when the track needs to be fully operational and the trains need to be delivered, travel time Amsterdam Centraal-Paris Nord will be 3:13. Cuting the Amsterdam-Centraal part (Schiphol is the 2nd stop) saves 15 minutes, but CDG on the other hand is 9 minutes further than Paris Nord, so total travel time will be a bit more than 3 hours. Due to all kind of contracts, all trains need to stop in Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels. Before 2030, travel time won't be shorter than 3 hours. For O&D-traffic the train will defenitely beat flying AMS-CDG, but I'm not too sure what it will do with connecting passengers

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34): FlySSC, I am very sorry to disappoint you and tell you that the Dutch and Belgians have severally scr*wed up with the TGV Nord. A lot of money has been spent on the latest technology and millions of euro's wasted on the project. The whole thing is delayed until further notice and the trains are expected to run at full speed only in 2009. But now the best thing, once finished the journey time between Amsterdam Schiphol and Paris Charles de Gaulle will be... 3 hours!!! Yes, you read it well my friend, once the train is running at full speed in 2009, it takes you 3 hours to get to CDG from AMS (and 3h15 to get from Amsterdam Centraal to Paris Gare du Nord).

Thank you Guys for all those interesting informations ... I never thought it would that long !
Well, then it apprears clearly that we are not going to see Air France Trains to AMS so soon ....

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34): It's another example of the sheer incompetence of the Dutch that we are displaying lately. It will take a long time before the train becomes a true alternative on this route, if ever.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 35): I cannot agree more. And besides the screw-up by the Dutch (and the Belgians by the way) the price for the TGV ride is too high.

I cannot completely agree. For O&D traffic between Paris and Amsterdam, the train is a good alternative. Also at 3:00 travel time.

The only way to realistically cut travel time is to remove the stops. By not stopping in Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels, a lot of time can be saved: but then they will be running empty trains! AF & KL fly 15 737/320s each day between AMS & CDG, giving a capacity of 15x120 (avg) = 1800 seats. If all these seats would be put on trains, that's 5 single Thalys trains (capacity 377 for a single train; usually they run doubles). 5 trains do not provide the flexibility of 15 flights (otherwise they would be using A332s or 772s, wouldn't they?).

Paris-Lyon is uncomparable. It's domestic, and thus a lot more demand considering the populations than between similar-sized cities in different countries. France is, compared to the Netherlands, demographically completely different: it has one big center (Paris) and a few sub-centres and hardly any population between. Paris-Lyon is a single city-pair that can fill a TGV Double deck train every hour, there is no such demand between Amsterdam and Paris alone. All together, there is traffic on the line, but this is going to Antwerp, Brussels and Paris - and more and more London via Brussels. There is a choice to made between frequency of connections and speed. I completely agree that we can better have a 30-minute frequency on the Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels line (there is demand!) than saving 35 minutes and running 4 trains a day to Paris.

I have my doubts about the obliged Breda stop, but considering the growing Brabant economic need, I can see they want the impulse.

Quoting Joost (Reply 33): Due to all kind of contracts, all trains need to stop in Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels

Rotterdam, antwerp and brussels JA but Breda???? why? and since when? to visit the Mentos factory???  

FlySSC, I have the dis-pleasure to take Thalys every week and it is not tomorrow that AF will venture into chartering trains to AMS like they do to BRU: not reliable enough and to many disputes around the service, the tracks, the languages, the operators on the High Speed Line etc etc

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 38): Rotterdam, antwerp and brussels JA but Breda???? why? and since when?

Currently the Thalys runs on a normal track Antwerp-Roosendaal-Dordrecht-Rotterdam; the Benelux-train Amsterdam-Brussels also calls at these stations. The high-speed track will run parallel to the A16/E19 highway (Rotterdam-Antwerp) and therefore pass Breda.

I'm not too sure anymore, by the way, if the Thalys will call at Breda. This was mentioned on a.net recently that all trains needed to stop there, however, the listing on the Wikipedia page (so 2 equally unreliable sources  ) mentions that only the The Hague - Rotterdam (convential track) - Breda - Antwerp - Brussels trains, and Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Breda (domestic) trains will call at Breda. This corresponds to the (dutch) information on http://www.viabreda.nl/plan/ovterminal.asp and therefore I tend to believe that Thalys will not stop in Breda. Also, they have actually built a high-speed bypass track around Breda.

Breda will mostly be a transfer station for Brabant. The Brabant-Tilburg-Eindhoven axis is gainig popularity for businesses and is slowly becoming a second Randstad-like area. (slowly, though  )

Quoting Joost (Reply 39): Thalys will not stop in Breda

and the world makes a sigh of relief !!!  
it will not stop in Den Haag too and a shuttle will enter into service to meet with Thalys a Rotterdam (so promised the Gemeente)

Quoting Joost (Reply 39): The Brabant-Tilburg-Eindhoven axis is gainig popularity for businesses and is slowly becoming a second Randstad-like area.

well that's good for EIN and the flights to CDG   
now you mention it, Philips world headquarters in EIN can use flights via CDG now there's a direct airlink EIN-CDG...and maybe it's as fast as going to AMS via NS train   

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 40): now you mention it, Philips world headquarters in EIN can use flights via CDG now there's a direct airlink EIN-CDG...and maybe it's as fast as going to AMS via NS train

Ehm not exactly. Airlinair flies 2x day to ORY. It's still a connection to Paris, but slightly different.

Quoting Joost (Reply 39): I'm not too sure anymore, by the way, if the Thalys will call at Breda. This was mentioned on a.net recently that all trains needed to stop there, however, the listing on the Wikipedia page (so 2 equally unreliable sources ) mentions that only the The Hague - Rotterdam (convential track) - Breda - Antwerp - Brussels trains, and Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Breda (domestic) trains will call at Breda.

The website of the NS (www.nshispeed.nl) mentions the following: There will be a highspeed link between Amsterdam and Brussels every hour (with transfer connection to CDG) with trains calling at Breda (2x hour). Amsterdam-Rotterdam will be served by a highspeed train every 10 minutes. In addition direct trains to Paris (not calling at Breda, and I doubt if they will call at Antwerpen either) will be 9x a day.

It may all look very slow and I agree that it is not your regular high-speed citylink with all the stops in between, but considering the densely populated area and travel times it will still make a big improvement. Breda is not your average high-speed city destination but for domestic travel it makes a great deal. No dutchman will deny the strech Breda-Amsterdam is an easy one by car. So a slow highspeed connection does a neat trick.
Also Maastricht now has connection to the highspeed network. For now it's a direct train to Brussels every hour (started last year, and currently generates a small profit) but it will be likely that they get the Thalys service as well (double trains will split in Liege with 1 part going to Maastricht and 1 part to Cologne).

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): Airlinair flies 2x day to ORY. It's still a connection to Paris, but slightly different.

I stand corrected, I thought the airlink was a KL flight from EIN to CDG

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): There will be a highspeed link between Amsterdam and Brussels every hour (with transfer connection to CDG) with trains calling at Breda (2x hour). Amsterdam-Rotterdam will be served by a highspeed train every 10 minutes. In addition direct trains to Paris (not calling at Breda, and I doubt if they will call at Antwerpen either) will be 9x a day.

so it means on the high speed tracks will ride the ex-Benelux trein + the Thalys: I hope reliability of the various machines used will be optimum...remains to be seen with the Ansaldo-Breda trains ordered by NS....which are already 2 years late in delivery
Thalys will stop at Antwerpen: they rebuilt competely Antwerpen centraal and the stop will not be in Antwerpen Berchem anymore: all these efforts for the Thalys not to stop??

to come back to aviation, the consequence is you could maybe take a Thalys in Antwerpen to go to CDG and it would be as quick as taking a train to AMS: lucrative biz traffic from Antwerpen woul then be divided in 2

Quoting Joost (Reply 39): Breda will mostly be a transfer station for Brabant. The Brabant-Tilburg-Eindhoven axis is gainig popularity for businesses and is slowly becoming a second Randstad-like area. (slowly, though )

The 'Zandstad Brabant' is the most important economical motor for the Netherlands for more than 20 years now. A connection to TGV is therefore justified but OTOH if it should be a really fast connection they should have at least some rides per day where they bypass Den Haag, Rotterdam, Breda and Antwerpen.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 40): well that's good for EIN and the flights to CDG now you mention it, Philips world headquarters in EIN can use flights via CDG now there's a direct airlink EIN-CDG...and maybe it's as fast as going to AMS via NS train

Now that you mention it I think that more LLC flights from EIN and RTM to Paris would kill TGV completely. A TGV ticket cost more than 100 Euro's. Officially Philips HQ are not in Eindhoven anymore but in AMS allthough most activities are still there.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19): There will probably be a name change in a close future, that is part of the next stage of the merging process. But it will be not KLM becoming Air France, or Air France becoming KLM.

Why can't the two companies merge everything, and only maintain separate identities for aircraft and uniforms?

In other words: merge all back-office functions, all accounting, finance, marketing and service management, unify all ground and onboard service standards and product offerings, and coordinate all global marketing and sales operations. All the airport stations could coordinate their operations, merge AF/KL ticket counters, etc., and then all that would still stay definitively AF or definitively KL would be the paint on the planes and the uniforms of the cabin attendants. Planes from the merged AF-KL Group based out of AMS would stay in KLM paint, and AMS-based crews would retain KLM uniforms, and planes based elsewhere in the system (i.e., French cities) would continue to carry AF paint and crews based in France would continue to wear AF uniforms.

Essentially, it would be a single company, in every sense of the word, where the only real non-standard inefficiency would be from two different paint schemes, and two different sets of uniforms.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 42): Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): Airlinair flies 2x day to ORY. It's still a connection to Paris, but slightly different. I stand corrected, I thought the airlink was a KL flight from EIN to CDG

The service was operated by AF regional, but was cancelled a few months ago. That was when Airlinair came in with the ORY service.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 40): now you mention it, Philips world headquarters in EIN can use flights via CDG now there's a direct airlink EIN-CDG...and maybe it's as fast as going to AMS via NS train

Philips' corporate headquarters moved to Amsterdam a couple of years ago. Most other divisions (research, marketing, HR, some production units) are still in Eindhoven.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44): Why can't the two companies merge everything, and only maintain separate identities for aircraft and uniforms? In other words: merge all back-office functions, all accounting, finance, marketing and service management, unify all ground and onboard service standards and product offerings, and coordinate all global marketing and sales operations. All the airport stations could coordinate their operations, merge AF/KL ticket counters, etc., and then all that would still stay definitively AF or definitively KL would be the paint on the planes and the uniforms of the cabin attendants. Planes from the merged AF-KL Group based out of AMS would stay in KLM paint, and AMS-based crews would retain KLM uniforms, and planes based elsewhere in the system (i.e., French cities) would continue to carry AF paint and crews based in France would continue to wear AF uniforms. Essentially, it would be a single company, in every sense of the word, where the only real non-standard inefficiency would be from two different paint schemes, and two different sets of uniforms.

Isn"t this what allready is fact? Apparently they"ve made some good profits out of the merger behind the screens. Now it is simply a leading airline with two brands and two major hubs. #1 in some aspects allready and with AZ integrated maybe more.....

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 40): it will not stop in Den Haag too and a shuttle will enter into service to meet with Thalys a Rotterdam (so promised the Gemeente)

That's correct. In the initial plans, the HST would pass Den Haag but now the track (newly built) will go straight to Schiphol.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): Ehm not exactly. Airlinair flies 2x day to ORY. It's still a connection to Paris, but slightly different.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 42): I stand corrected, I thought the airlink was a KL flight from EIN to CDG

There was a 3x daily AF flight (operated by Arlinair) EIN-CDG up to about a year ago, but they stopped it after disappointing results - apparantly people preferred to drive or take the train to AMS. The idea before was to also connect ENS with CDG, but this never materialized. Arlinair continued the route with smaller equipment, 2x daily, on their own, to ORY.

KLC has been flying RTM-CDG for a couple of months just after the AF-KL merger, but it was also stopped: O&D traffic prefered the Thalys, and for connecting traffic going to AMS is of course more convenient.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 43): Now that you mention it I think that more LLC flights from EIN and RTM to Paris would kill TGV completely.

No, they won't. Vueling tried AMS-CDG but it failed miserably. Even LCCs need a part of higher-yielding traffic, especially on a business route. And also Thalys has promotion fares for leisure passengers, currently EUR 33 all-in for one-way in October and November. They need to attract business passengers - and for central Paris, the Thalys will just be quicker - and hardly more expensive.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 43): The 'Zandstad Brabant' is the most important economical motor for the Netherlands for more than 20 years now.

I don't have the numbers, but I fail to believe that the Breda-Tilburg-Den Bosch-Eindhoven axis outperforms the Randstad Amsterdam-Utrecht-Rotterdam-The Hague. Where did you get this information from, then?

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 42): to come back to aviation, the consequence is you could maybe take a Thalys in Antwerpen to go to CDG and it would be as quick as taking a train to AMS: lucrative biz traffic from Antwerpen woul then be divided in 2

Probably similar indeed. Divide between AMS and CDG, but both on AF-KL of course  

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 42): so it means on the high speed tracks will ride the ex-Benelux trein + the Thalys: I hope reliability of the various machines used will be optimum

It's indeed to be seen. The track will be used by Thalys, Benelux train and domestic trains; all with different speeds (IIRC domestic 200 km/h, Thalys 300 km/h)/

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 43): A connection to TGV is therefore justified

It was in the initial proposal of NS for the Dutch government - but as the government wanted more money for the license to operate the HST, the link to Eindhoven has been scrapped.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): The website of the NS (www.nshispeed.nl) mentions the following:

Where did you find this? I've been clikcing around but didn't find it - what links did you hit?

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 46): Isn"t this what allready is fact? Apparently they"ve made some good profits out of the merger behind the screens. Now it is simply a leading airline with two brands and two major hubs

No, both legally on paper and operationally, AF and KL are still two different airlines, just owned by the same people. AF still operates on one certificate, and KL on another. What I was proposing is actually merge the companies onto a single operating certificate, and truly unify them as one company, and then just have that one company operate with two brands -- aircraft in two different paint schemes, with crews wearing two different uniforms.

Quoting Joost (Reply 47): Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 41): The website of the NS (www.nshispeed.nl) mentions the following: Where did you find this? I've been clikcing around but didn't find it - what links did you hit?

It's on the "wanneer beginnen we" section. They display briefly when the routes will start-up.

Quoting Joost (Reply 47): It's indeed to be seen. The track will be used by Thalys, Benelux train and domestic trains; all with different speeds (IIRC domestic 200 km/h, Thalys 300 km/h)/

Thalys will hit the 300 but the other trains should reach 250 I have been told.

As many people already indicate, feeding NL destinations to CDG is hardly profitable, it has been done in EHV and RTM and with dissapointing succes (not strange, leaving from EHV was quite expensive compared to leaving from AMS/BRU/DUS). I am positive ENS and MST would not be able to reach decent volumes. (since France is very large it would probably work fine feeding into AMS). The HST might be able to attract some feeders into CDG, but then you really need to start calculating.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 49): I am positive ENS and MST would not be able to reach decent volumes. (since France is very large it would probably work fine feeding into AMS).

Well, MST-AMS already exists of course, 3x daily and AFAIK there are no plans to quit this route.
AMS-GRQ works for VLM, purely based on O&D (with connections to LON and MAN). I doubt whether ENS-AMS would work, maybe on a very small prop plane like the Embraer 120. RTM needs more connections to Germany IMHO, I wonder RTM-DUS and RTM-FRA would be viable routes for VLM, off course with a short turn around in RTM so you can take pax from FRA to LCY via RTM.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 50): Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 49): I am positive ENS and MST would not be able to reach decent volumes. (since France is very large it would probably work fine feeding into AMS). Well, MST-AMS already exists of course, 3x daily and AFAIK there are no plans to quit this route.

I was mentioning feeders into CDG from the Netherlands vs. feeders into AMS from France. MST-AMS and GRQ-AMS do fine, MST used to have 5x daily connections in the time of KLM Exel (they also flew EHV-AMS) but with KLC on the route it dropped to 3x daily.

Germany is a really big market. Flights could do well. I still don't understand why after the bankrupcy of KLM Exel nobody jumped-in on the MST-MUC route which did pretty well with a 3x daily ERJ-145. Though MST is really proximate to Germany itself making the route semi-domestic, I think RTM could do fine with such a service.
FRA is probably more of a thing for LH to serve and I think they rather focus on nearby AMS.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 51): Germany is a really big market. Flights could do well. I still don't understand why after the bankrupcy of KLM Exel nobody jumped-in on the MST-MUC route which did pretty well with a 3x daily ERJ-145. Though MST is really proximate to Germany itself making the route semi-domestic, I think RTM could do fine with such a service. FRA is probably more of a thing for LH to serve and I think they rather focus on nearby AMS.

Agreed. I never knew MST was connected with MUC, but seen the proximity of Germany and the large German population in MST I indeed wonder why this route hasn't been tried again. EasyJet could have tried it at the time they flew to Berlin from MST.

On a side note OO-VEG, the correct IATA designator for Eindhoven is EIN, not EHV.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 48): What I was proposing is actually merge the companies onto a single operating certificate, and truly unify them as one company

Problem with that is that it would be either a french or a dutch company which will give trouble with traffic rights. The current setup is the closest as they could go.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 53): Problem with that is that it would be either a french or a dutch company which will give trouble with traffic rights. The current setup is the closest as they could go.

For now, but that will likely change over the next few years as the E.U. strikes more and more deals with other countries like the one they struck with the U.S., which mitigates the national traffic rights issue.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 50): AMS-GRQ works for VLM, purely based on O&D

They don't have a AMS-MAN connection. 90% of the GRQ-AMS traffic is transfer to LCY. Loads are reported to be around 50%. Maths for dummies means that there are 2 people a day flying AMS-GRQ on O&D.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 52): Agreed. I never knew MST was connected with MUC, but seen the proximity of Germany and the large German population in MST I indeed wonder why this route hasn't been tried again.

The German population drives to DUS or CGN and catches one of the many dailies. From the German border, it's still quite a drive to MST. In the past, MST has also had a MXP link (by Exel, in the time that KL and AZ were tight).

ENS-AMS has been done by EMB-120s, also a long time ago.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 50): RTM needs more connections to Germany IMHO, I wonder RTM-DUS and RTM-FRA would be viable routes for VLM

FRA and MUC would be my guesses. DUS is way too convenient by ICE international, or by the Audis and BMWs of the customer. The most important 'problem' with DUS is that it is not Dusseldorf itself that is the main target, but one of the many cities in the Ruhr area. When you need to go to Bottrop/Duisburg/Oberhausen/you name it (which are the catchment area of DUS), you need a rental-car anyways. Therefore, car and rail connections seem favorable. FRA is a bit too far to be convenient to drive both ways on one day, as is MUC.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 51): FRA is probably more of a thing for LH to serve and I think they rather focus on nearby AMS.

Feeding hubs from secondary Dutch airports hardly ever seems to work. SK has also tried a RTM-CPH in the early 2000s (F50s IIRC) but failed. FRA-RTM I think is mostly O&D and would be fine on VLM, KLC, LH Cityline or whoever.

Quoting Joost (Reply 55): Maths for dummies means that there are 2 people a day flying AMS-GRQ on O&D.

Sorry Joost, I should have been more clear. I meant that the GRQ-AMS-LCY route works based on O&D, i.e. all the pax on that flight fly from Groningen to London, and not onwards from London (nor Groningen, if it would be possible ).
I didn't realize MAN is served from RTM but not AMS.

Quoting Joost (Reply 55): In the past, MST has also had a MXP link (by Exel, in the time that KL and AZ were tight). ENS-AMS has been done by EMB-120s, also a long time ago.

Interesting. A pity these routes don't exist anymore. I can imagine they weren't the largest money makers in the end.

Quoting Joost (Reply 55): Feeding hubs from secondary Dutch airports hardly ever seems to work. SK has also tried a RTM-CPH in the early 2000s (F50s IIRC) but failed. FRA-RTM I think is mostly O&D and would be fine on VLM, KLC, LH Cityline or whoever.

I think the Dutch accept they have to drive to AMS to get anywhere, and because of KLM we are spoiled by the fact that a lot of cities in the world can be reached directly from our hub in AMS. It is courageous of VLM to start a second domestic route. But if your numbers are right Joost, why doesn't VLM try a direct flight to London? I understand they pick up pax in AMS, but if they already fill 50% of the plane, they might get it working with a dedicated GRQ-LCY flight.

RTM-FRA and RTM-MUC would make a lot of sense if VLM enters the StarAlliance as a regional partner. VLM could feed the LH hubs in Germany, and it would LH to attrackt more pax from the Dutch market. I know this is far-fetched.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 56): But if your numbers are right Joost, why doesn't VLM try a direct flight to London?

This is one of the important questions in my current life   This is my source of the numbers: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=18969

I wanted to ask William Vet at the last conference, but didn't have the time to see him. In another article on LVN that I cannot find anymore, they mention they need to base a plane at GRQ for non-stop service, whereas they don't for the AMS service: but I don't understand this at all. Any help welcome  

Besides that, I think the 50% l/f is very low.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 56): RTM-FRA and RTM-MUC would make a lot of sense if VLM enters the StarAlliance as a regional partner. VLM could feed the LH hubs in Germany, and it would LH to attrackt more pax from the Dutch market. I know this is far-fetched.

Very, very difficult.

LH indeed serves a lot of passengers on AMS-FRA, and has enough pax to fly A320s with a low CASM. And often they offer good deals on intercontinental flights - they have to, because for people from the AMS-market their product needs to compete with (often) direct service from AMS. When they would feed people from RTM, they will probably not fill anything larger than a 50-seater. Then, they will need to market a RTM-FRA-NRT on LH against a AMS-NRT on KL (or JL). By flying with a connection, total travel time is longer. By flying small aircraft ex RTM, costs are pretty high: not easy to make money on it. Of course, there are routes that LH flies and KL doesn't, but those are not the trunk routes and they won't fill RTM/EIN connection flights on passengers transferring to Chennai or Tashkent.

If LH will ever serve RTM or EIN from FRA or MUC, it will be driven by O&D pax; connecting pax are a nice extra, but they shoudn't be the driving force.

Quoting Joost (Reply 47): No, they won't. Vueling tried AMS-CDG but it failed miserably.

AMS is not as convenient as EIN. Cheap parking in front of the building. A little more predictable traffic. Faster check-in and security. Luggage directly available.

Quoting Joost (Reply 47): I don't have the numbers, but I fail to believe that the Breda-Tilburg-Den Bosch-Eindhoven axis outperforms the Randstad Amsterdam-Utrecht-Rotterdam-The Hague.

I don't have numbers either but Brabant is obviously gaining importance relatively to the Randstad. This document even mentions Brabant as high-tech sub top in Europe. http://www.brabant.nl/layouts/SISHtm...ument.aspx?docid=24742&doctype=pdf

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 56): I think the Dutch accept they have to drive to AMS to get anywhere

No we don't! AMS is 95 km from my hometown but takes in a weak day easily up to three hours to get there. And then you have to pay gold to park at the very remote P3 and in the holiday season even further. BRU is about 120 km and takes 1,5 - 2 hours and DUS is 165 km but is doable in 80 minutes early in the weak days. Both airports allow close and affordable parking and are for me favourable if I get the same product. And of course the growing opportunities to fly to European destinations from RTM and EIN.

Quoting Joost (Reply 47): I don't have the numbers, but I fail to believe that the Breda-Tilburg-Den Bosch-Eindhoven axis outperforms the Randstad Amsterdam-Utrecht-Rotterdam-The Hague. Where did you get this information from, then?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44): In other words: merge all back-office functions, all accounting, finance, marketing and service management

That is what it is actually undergoing ...

All figures and results published now are concerning AFKL, not AF then KL of AF + KL.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44): merge AF/KL ticket counters

Already done in several airport. Just like the two airlines operations are under one single Station Manager in several cities (THR, GRU, SXM, etc ...)

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60): Already done in several airport. Just like the two airlines operations are under one single Station Manager in several cities (THR, GRU, SXM, etc ...)

On the other hand, there is quite some progress to make at other airports. AF/KL are in the same office in YYZ, but each have their own photocopier  .

Quoting JRadier (Reply 61): On the other hand, there is quite some progress to make at other airports. AF/KL are in the same office in YYZ, but each have their own photocopier

Oh, in that case is see some room for substantial savings Commavia....

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 62): Oh, in that case is see some room for substantial savings Commavia....

Exactly Glareskin, why place joint orders at Boeing when you are wasting it on doubly equipment elsewhere? 

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 58): Quoting PHKLM (Reply 56): I think the Dutch accept they have to drive to AMS to get anywhere No we don't! AMS is 95 km from my hometown but takes in a weak day easily up to three hours to get there.

Indeed... AMS has a lot of downsizes if you don't live in the Randstad area. Ticketprices for instance, long-distance flights are about €100 more expensive then if you would take the same flight from BRU with a transfer at AMS. And though the train does the job perfect, the traveltime is sometimes just too much. The southern part (including that Brabant region) doesn't need a lot of time to reach BRU. And the Eastern part has a lot of alternatives just accros the border which are really growing fine. I am more than happy to skip AMS. It's 2hrs by train to AMS (by car probably a bit more) and it's only half an hour to get in DUS by car. And with LCC-hub CGN not that far away I don't even bother looking for fares leaving at AMS, and so do most people who can reach an alternative airport with a 1hr drive (Ryanair even manages to get the Dutch board at Charleroi near the French Border).

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 56): Quoting Joost (Reply 55): In the past, MST has also had a MXP link (by Exel, in the time that KL and AZ were tight). ENS-AMS has been done by EMB-120s, also a long time ago. Interesting. A pity these routes don't exist anymore. I can imagine they weren't the largest money makers in the end.

I don't know if they ever made a profit out of the MXP flights but where it really went wrong was that KLM Exel got a bit too exited by suddenly operating a 4x daily MST-TXL flight, so all ERJ flights to TXL and MUC were cancelled, lateron the company went bankrupt.