Hi there

Just checking the AEA (Association of European Airlines) stats for this year and again TAP is extremely bad in terms of on-time performance both for medium haul and long haul flights. Instead of adding new destinations wouldn't be better for them to have a better service? Last 5 flights I took with them, the better one was 1 hour and 35 minutes delayed.

Short Haul: only 60% of flights arrive on time (number 25 in 29).
Long Haul: only 43% of flights arrive on time (number 19 in 20).

Isn't it amazing?

Just check it here:
http://www.aea.be/AEAWebsite/webrsc/SerQlty/DL/CR07-Q2.pdf

I mean:
- This airline never had a profit (no one considers a 4 million profit in more than 10000 EUR income as a real profit) when selling stakes in Air Macau etc;
- Ontime performance as one the worst in Europe;
- Fly 20 year old planes - A310 - Ok on phase out but really? When will the phase out finish, 2015?
- Hub in one of the worst airports in Europe, Lisbon;
- High fares compared with competitors (just check fares to SP,RJ compared with Iberia);
- 100% state owned like almost no airline in the EU;

Your opinion welcome. I just don't understand why so much noise around an airline that after all is doing nothing despite changing their livery and giving the impression that everything is looking good where it isn't.

What are the load factors on the Brasilia flight?

Hi!

I'm sorry to tell you but it looks that you don't know absolutely nothing about TAP!!! If you want to start some kind of war here I'm not going to be the one do it.....but you'll probably get some "good" answers from other people in this forum. But to politely confront you with what you wrote let me tell you the following things:

1 - "This airline" has been having profit since Eng. Fernando Pinto came to TAP a few years ago, TAP is recovering really good and in 2008 will stat to be privatize!
2 - On-Time performance is not good indeed, but that's not a problem of TAP, it's a problem of the airport, currently Portugal Government is in the process of choosing a new location for a new airport!
3 - "Flying old airplanes " can only be a joke from you right? If it is that's OK, it's a good joke...if not then you're insulting my intelligence! TAP is currently phasing out the A310-300 from November 2007 till Summer 2008, the first brand new A330-202 is going to make the first flight one of these days. The phase out of all the long-haul fleet ( the 3 ex: SWISS A330-200's + 4 ex: Austrian A330-200's + 4 A340-300's + 5 A330-202's ) will probably be at that time yes, the model opted was the A350-800 and 900 but now there are some discussions by TAP to see if they will evolute to the A350XWB or they will change to the 787, until the end of the year thinks will be clear. You had also a beginners mistake because you forgot to mention that short/medium fleet of TAP ( A319/320/321 ) is probably one of the youngest in Europe!!!
4 - I've seen worst hubs than LIS, have been here any time?
5 - TAP is currently part o ALLIANCE and their fares are "tuned" with the rest of ALLIANCE members, besides that it's strange that TAP fares are so high because the occupation of TAP planes is high...specially to Africa and South America, also in Europe so unless people like to pay higher fares I seriously don't understand your point.

I hope you understood what I said...TAP is not the best airline in Europe...but certainly is not the worst!!! And the fact that is in ALLIANCE "rings your bell" a bit? Do you think ALLIANCE would accept an airline so bad like you said? I don't think so. Have you ever flew in TAP? No? Pity!!!
Regards

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): Just checking the AEA (Association of European Airlines) stats for this year and again TAP is extremely bad in terms of on-time performance both for medium haul and long haul flights. Instead of adding new destinations wouldn't be better for them to have a better service? Last 5 flights I took with them, the better one was 1 hour and 35 minutes delayed. Short Haul: only 60% of flights arrive on time (number 25 in 29). Long Haul: only 43% of flights arrive on time (number 19 in 20). Isn't it amazing?

Yes its not good but did you look at BA also they were bad too S/H 64.3% 23/29 L/H 56% 18/29

Lost baggage per 1000 bags
TAP 23.5 22/29
BA 28 23/29

Also not all airlines have their stats here ie no Aer Lingus or VS

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): - Hub in one of the worst airports in Europe, Lisbon; - High fares compared with competitors (just check fares to SP,RJ compared with Iberia);

Well they cant choose too much on where they hub as they are from Portugal
If they can sell high fares well good on them better selling a ticket for 100 euros than 50 if they can ..

Someone's a little defensive.

I take it you've had this conversation before?

Quoting CV990 (Reply 1): the 3 ex: SWISS A330-200's

Swissair

Quoting CV990 (Reply 1):

Well you can't deny facts can you? Weren't you also the guy who praised that TAP pilot who performed that near-crash at an airshow nto too long ago?

Well, err..  

Hi!

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 4): Well you can't deny facts can you? Weren't you also the guy who praised that TAP pilot who performed that near-crash at an airshow not too long ago?

No comments on this....completly irrelevant to the topic!!!
Regards  

I have to side with CV990, perhaps i am biased, because I truly love TP...however, you are correct in saying TP does have a poor on-time performance, and TP will be the first to admit to this. In fact, mentioned in there current edition of ATLANTIS, there in-flight magazine is how this is among things they are improving and will continue to improve on. Also, Lisbon itself has a poor on-time performance. I work out of YYZ, and nearly every flight out of LIS on S4, TS, and 5G are delayed. If you want to take a look at http://www.ana-aeroportos.pt the website for Portugals airports, take a look at departures, and you will see that the Air France, Alitalia, KLM, BA, IB, CO, among many others are also frequently delayed. What is being done about this? Well for starters, August 1st a new terminal was opened in LIS for all departing domestic flights, which has tremendously cut down the congestion and line ups in LIS now. And it is short term, because a new airport will be built in LIS in the near future, the plan is already there. Groundforce is now and has been for sometime handling TP groundservices, and I have seen an improvement there also.
Your comment about an ageing fleet is laughable. You must not be serious.
And correct me if I am wrong, but has TP not been one of the most profitable european airline since 9/11??

Have to say I wasn't too happy when trying TP and LIS for the first time last spring...delays, rude ground service, lost luggages. I liked Lisbon a lot and will sure return, but on Finnair's non-stop from HEL next, to avoid any disastrous connections this time.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5): completly irrelevant to the topic!!!

Yes, but it shows your bias, which makes your arguments somewhat worthless, imo.

CV990:

> "This airline" has been having profit since Eng. Fernando Pinto came to TAP a few years ago, TAP is recovering really good and in 2008 will stat to be privatize!

  You clearly don't know what you talking about. Send me the profit income/profit report year after year since Mr Pinto is there. Everyone in the airline world knows TAP financial results are a bluff for it to get privatized fast. They sell stakes in companies year after year to get a mere 1 to 5 million euro profit.

Waiting for the reports for further comments. I have them here but I want to see yours.  

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 8): Yes, but it shows your bias, which makes your arguments somewhat worthless, imo.

I would be force to say the same about yours too....completely irrelevant to this topic   

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9): Waiting for the reports for further comments. I have them here but I want to see yours. Smile

I'm waiting also you to comment on the rest of my message too!!!   

Regards

I'm waiting for the reports CV990! I asked for them first, not you.
I made a statement and you told I was not correct so please let me know where are your sources, not me.

And BTW saying that TAP delays are caused by Lisbon airport makes me laugh.   You can only be kidding.

What is your opinion regarding the constant delay of their privatization? If the results were so good they would got privatized in 2004 (4 years after Mr Pinto was there).

What is your opinion on a european developed country having a 100% state owned airline? I believe you will answer something like "it's Ok, it's normal" but then it explains all the rest...

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 11): I'm waiting for the reports CV990! I asked for them first, not you.

http://www.flytap.com/USA/en/Company/TAPGroup/AnnualReport/

I didn't manage to open the 2006 file, it seems damaged.

In 2005, the operational result of the holding was -€9,9m, net result -€10m, and net result of TAP €3,6m.
In 2004, the operational result of the holding was -€7,4m, net result €8,7m, and net result of TAP -€2,4m.
(That's according to the 2005 report, the 2004 report actually mentions a operational result of -€12,8m)

In 2003, the operational result of the holding was €23,8m, net result €19,7, net result of TAP €19,3m.

In 2002, the operational result of TAP was €50m, net result -€6m.
In 2001, the operational result of TAP was €20m, net result -€44m.

And don't forget TAP has the the "best pilots" ! Including Capt. Marcelinho ! This makes the airline my first choice   

I must be alone in wishing TAP would keep hold of their cuddly A310s!

Hi!

All your comments are hilarious....specially the one about the Airbus A310!!! So do you think I'm going to waste my time trying to show anything? No, of course not...there's people already here that showed you that, and I think my first answer infact gave the true picture of TAP....the rest? Well the rest are simply words with non-sense!

Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 13): And don't forget TAP has the the "best pilots" ! Including Capt. Marcelinho ! This makes the airline my first choice mischievous

Now regarding your comment, of course it's irrelevant also to this topic, but I'm gonna take sometime to show you some other facts about Cmte.Marcelino ( that I didn't have the chance to show last time...) and maybe at the end you show a bit more respect for him ok? Here they go:

1 - Flew the inaugural flight of TAP from Lisbon to Paris with the C-54A Skymaster on the 10th. of August 1948
2 - Flew the inaugural flight of TAP from Lisbon to London/Northolt with the C-54A Skymaster on the 27th. May 1949
3 - Flew the delivery flight of the first TAP L1049G Super Constellation from Burbank to Lisbon on the 15th. of July 1955.
4 - In 1959 he was based in Goa to give instruction to the new airline TAIP that operated 2 Vickers Vicking, 2 C-54's
and 2 DC-6's.
5 - Flew the inaugural flight of TAP from Lisbon to Goa/India with a L1049G on the 8th. of July 1961
6 - Flew the ferry flight of the first Caravelle VI-R of TAP, CS-TCA from Toulouse to Lisbon on the 9th. of July 1962
7 - Flew the inaugural jet flight from Lisbon to Paris with the Caravelle on the 1st. of August 1962
8 - Flew the inuagural jet flight from Lisbon to London with Caravelle on the 1st. November 1962
9 - Received the certification of Flight Instructor of Caravelle from Air France has Captain Category A with the following comment from Air France - "Excellent pilote précis et organisé ne laissant rien au hazard. A particulierement bien assimile la technique de pilotage enseignee a la SFP, et il doit pouvoir des son adaptation terminee exercer la fonction d'intructeur de Caravelle. Classe au niveau de la categorie A des Commandants de bord d'Air France".
10 - Flew the inaugural flight of TAP from Lisbon to Frankfurt with Caravelle on the 17th. January 1963.
11 - During 1963 he was part of the Portuguese FAA to make test flights of the new runway of Sta Catarina/Funchal, and he was the pilot of the first airplane to land there, a Douglas C-47 Dakota, CS-DGA on the 6th. of June 1963.
12 - Between 1963 and 1964 become commanding captain of the 707 at Sabena and soon after he become flight instructor of the 707 too.
13 - Flew the ferry flight of the first Boeing 707-382B, CS-TBA, from Seattle to Lisbon on the 18th. December 1965.
14 - In 1972 went to Boeing to attend the course of commandant and flight instructor of the 747-282B
15 - On the 31st. of March 1972 he flew the first ever flight on the TAP 747.
16 - In 1976 he left TAP to Karachi/Paquistan to give 747 instruction for the 2 747-282B's that TAP leased to PIA.
17 - In 1978 he retired from flying.

Regards

Although I am not a huge fan of TP, I am a huge fan of Portugal and the Portuguese (so maybe that automatically makes me biased).
First off, the heading of this thread is VERY misleading and I'd venture to say a bit dishonest. The AEA figures do not show any of the low-cost airlines operating in Europe, and they do compile a major portion of European flights. So these figures are a bit meaningless. To say that "TP Worst in Europe in On-Time Performance" gives the impression it is at the bottom, when it is not. BA and JK are worse.
20 year old aircraft? So what? A number of US airlines have aircraft that old as do AZ, AF, BA, IB and I could go on!!!
TP has carved out a niche between Brazil and Europe. And their fares between France and Brazil are much cheaper than AF's or IB's, even in Business Class. So, again, incorrect statement on your part regarding high fares.
I have had many flights with TP (22 flights to be exact). Some on time, some late. Service tends to be OK. However their Business class product on the long haul is not very good. And the flight attendants are not very cheerful (not rude, just do not seem happy or overly friendly). It is a shame, as I find the Portuguese to be among the friendliness and certainly most polite peoples in Europe.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14): I must be alone in wishing TAP would keep hold of their cuddly A310s!

No you're not  

Quoting CV990 (Reply 10): I would be force to say the same about yours too

as in?

Quoting CV990 (Reply 10): completely irrelevant to this topic

If you read and understood my comment, it's clear that it's not.

If you can't accept critizism based on facts towards your favorite airline, your posts trying to praise TAP as Europe's finest airline becomes irrelevant. Nobody said that your beloved Tap is a bad airline, merely their ontime performance is among the worst un Europe for now. Accept it, move on.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 18): If you read and understood my comment, it's clear that it's not. If you can't accept critizism based on facts towards your favorite airline, your posts trying to praise TAP as Europe's finest airline becomes irrelevant. Nobody said that your beloved Tap is a bad airline, merely their ontime performance is among the worst un Europe for now. Accept it, move on.

Hi!

You keep coming with irrelevant words about a topic that has nothing to do with what you are writing in, so like I said before I'm not gonna comment on your words, it will be a merely waste of time and above all you are not bringing NOTHING to this discussion!
Regards

Quoting CV990 (Reply 19):

That's what you think because you fail to (refuse to?) see my point.

But fair enough, im not gonna try further, i'm sure other people know where i'm coming from  

CV990: you keep loosing time...where are the facts? Where are the reports saying TAP has had profits since Mr Pinto is there? I started the topic with facts and an official AEA report. You replied with nothing, simple words. I'll keep waiting.

Dirkou, this is simply not correct. TAP is the most profitable airline in Europe, probably the world. It also has the lowest fares. Never has a single bag been lost. Lisbon is a fantastic airport, with daily flights to every city in the world, in fact with at least 10 A380 arriving every hour and never a single delay. Who are these people from the AEA? Infidel. To believe them is to believe that the Americans are in Baghdad.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 21): CV990: you keep loosing time...where are the facts? Where are the reports saying TAP has had profits since Mr Pinto is there? I started the topic with facts and an official AEA report. You replied with nothing, simple words. I'll keep waiting.

Exactly.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 22):

  

Good to see that some people see my point, and don't have their brains on off mode.

I was hesitant to enter this particular discussion, but after reading some posts, I was left with no choice. Despite wearing the Portuguese flag, I'm very unbiased in regards to Tap.  

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): Short Haul: only 60% of flights arrive on time (number 25 in 29). Long Haul: only 43% of flights arrive on time (number 19 in 20). Isn't it amazing?

It clearly shows that their is a lot of work ahead of them to improve on those figures.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): I mean: - This airline never had a profit (no one considers a 4 million profit in more than 10000 EUR income as a real profit)

Taps return to profitability is a medium - long term plan. I sincerely expect Tap to achieve health profitability from 2008 onwards.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): when selling stakes in Air Macau etc;

Could you please elaborate more on this point. Tap currently hold a 20% stake in Air Macau.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): - Fly 20 year old planes - A310 - Ok on phase out but really? When will the phase out finish, 2015?

Tap currently fly 5 A313's which are close to 20 years old. Despite their age they well maintained and have one of the highest utilization in the world.

Apart from the A313's in Tap's fleet, they have a further 7 A330-200's and 4 A340-300's. Tap is also to commence receiving its first ''new'' A330-200 in November which will replace the remaining A313's by the end of 2008.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): - Hub in one of the worst airports in Europe, Lisbon;

This is you personal opinion and I respect that, although I have seen far worse.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): - 100% state owned like almost no airline in the EU;

I agree that this issue should have been resolved many years ago, although thankfully it seems that it will soon be resolved.  

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter): Your opinion welcome. I just don't understand why so much noise around an airline that after all is doing nothing despite changing their livery and giving the impression that everything is looking good where it isn't.

I'm sorry but this is just incorrect.

They have recently acquired Portugalia Airlines ( PGA ) 99,8% and they have also increased their share in VEM Maintenance to 90%.

Initiated a fleet modernisation plan with the acquisition of 7 (second hand) A332's + 5 (new) A332's. They are also in final talks convert their original A350 order into the A350XWB which will replace Tap's fleet of A330's/A340's from 2014 onwards. This would have occurred earlier if Airbus has not re-launched the A350.

Launched ''new'' cabin uniforms and will progressively improve and standardise its Business Class across its longhaul fleet.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 2): Well they cant choose too much on where they hub as they are from Portugal

Porto is an airport that Tap should look into more seriously. It has a modern infrastructure, which is among the very best in Europe, it also has plenty of room to grow.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 2): If they can sell high fares well good on them better selling a ticket for 100 euros than 50 if they can ..

Correct.   

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 4): Well you can't deny facts can you? Weren't you also the guy who praised that TAP pilot who performed that near-crash at an airshow not too long ago?

What that pilot did at the show was plain stupid, although I believe that he never intended to go that low.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9): They sell stakes in companies year after year to get a mere 1 to 5 million euro profit.

Apart from White, what else have they sold ?

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 11): And BTW saying that TAP delays are caused by Lisbon airport makes me laugh. Smile You can only be kidding.

Actually Lisbon Airport is one of the major culprit regarding the delays along with ground handling (GroundForce)

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 11): What is your opinion regarding the constant delay of their privatization?

Political instability between 2000 - 2005.

Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 13): And don't forget TAP has the the "best pilots"

I have no reason to think otherwise.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14): I must be alone in wishing TAP would keep hold of their cuddly A310s!

No mate. I would hope that Tap would look into converting one or two A310's into freighters, and relaunch Tap Cargo division.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 16): Although I am not a huge fan of TP, I am a huge fan of Portugal and the Portuguese (so maybe that automatically makes me biased).

Always nice to hear. Thank you.  

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 16): 20 year old aircraft? So what? A number of US airlines have aircraft that old as do AZ, AF, BA, IB and I could go on!!!

Correct.   

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 16): TP has carved out a niche between Brazil and Europe.

Correct.   

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 16): Service tends to be OK. However their Business class product on the long haul is not very good.

Maybe you are referring to some A310's and A330's that have yet to receive the new Business Class seats.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 21): I started the topic with facts and an official AEA report.

You started it well, but then wondered off, and made wild affirmations.

Regards,
Wings

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20): That's what you think because you fail to (refuse to?) see my point. But fair enough, im not gonna try further, i'm sure other people know where i'm coming from Smile

Hi!

Sorry mate, no comments on your posts, irrelevant and imature!

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 21): CV990: you keep loosing time...where are the facts? Where are the reports saying TAP has had profits since Mr Pinto is there? I started the topic with facts and an official AEA report. You replied with nothing, simple words. I'll keep waiting.

Regarding your post, you received already my answer and also answers from other people down here, so like I said to "your buddy" above I'll not comment on that....someone that don't even know nothing about TAP fleet deserves my words on that. Go to www.flytap.com and you'll learn more about the airline of my country!
  
Regards

Portugal has an airline? That's awesome. Let's encourage them as much as we can. Positive comments only.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 25): Sorry mate, no comments on your posts, irrelevant and imature!

No it's not, but i understand why you won't comment, because you can't bring up a valid argument to falsify my claims. All you did so far is calling my posts off topic and immature. But hey, good sign, it just shows how spot on i am  

Actually, it's quite the opposite. You're the one being immature. But i'm not even going to explain why, because you wont/will refuse to understand anyway, however i'm sure other people see my point. If you want to attempt to listen though, i will gladly try to explain why.

I just can't understand how blindfolded you can be, i mean seriously. You're the only person defending your claims and licking TAP's butt while everyone else brings up hard facts to falsify your cheerleading party, yet you refuse to even acknowledge it, and keep living in your dreamworld where TAP is the world's most successful, greatest airline. Particularely interesting is that even your fellow countrymen are rooting against you, yet you still won't even consider to listen to other people's opinions. Exactly the same happened in that thread i mentioned, and that's because i brought it up, it just confirms your attitude and thus makes your opinion irrelevant to the objective reader.

Yes i know it's irrelevant an immature what i just wrote, in your world. In everyone else's it's a fact.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 27): No it's not, but i understand why you won't comment, because you can't bring up a valid argument to falsify my claims. All you did so far is calling my posts off topic and immature. But hey, good sign, it just shows how spot on i am Smile Actually, it's quite the opposite. You're the one being immature. But i'm not even going to explain why, because you wont/will refuse to understand anyway, however i'm sure other people see my point. If you want to attempt to listen though, i will gladly try to explain why. I just can't understand how blindfolded you can be, i mean seriously. You're the only person defending your claims and licking TAP's butt while everyone else brings up hard facts to falsify your cheerleading party, yet you refuse to even acknowledge it, and keep living in your dreamworld where TAP is the world's most successful, greatest airline. Particularely interesting is that even your fellow countrymen are rooting against you, yet you still won't even consider to listen to other people's opinions. Exactly the same happened in that thread i mentioned, and that's because i brought it up, it just confirms your attitude and thus makes your opinion irrelevant to the objective reader. Yes i know it's irrelevant an immature what i just wrote, in your world. In everyone else's it's a fact.

Hi!

The difference between you and me is that I wrote 10 words and you wrote more than 100 words trying to back up something that's impossible to back up! I'm wise enough to stop this "personal revenge" right now! If you want a "piece of me" let's get to the MP option...unless you want people worldwide to know the real person you have...in my case I'll NOT answer to you in this topic again ONLY in MP, there it will be only YOU'RE PROBLEM against my way of living!
Regards

Quoting CV990 (Reply 28): The difference between you and me is that I wrote 10 words and you wrote more than 100 words trying to back up something that's impossible to back up

wtf

No comment. Either your english skills are low, or you just again invent random bollocks.

Anyway, arguing with you is pointless.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 28): unless you want people worldwide to know the real person you have

I believe i'd have more people backin gme up than you, like you had nobody backing you in that recent thread.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 28): there it will be only YOU'RE PROBLEM against my way of living!

lol, and where did you take that from? I never said i had a problem "against your way of living". I don't even know you.

I think it's indeed best to stop here, as you again failed to answer my post.

on and PS: I'm still waiting for you to falsify the OP's claim. Keep trying.

[Edited 2007-10-17 16:14:34]

At least they have the sexiest cabin crew uniforms. Who doesn't like a girl in knee high boots?



AZJ

[Edited 2007-10-17 20:41:07]