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Topic: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: LY777
Posted 2007-10-29 12:21:02 and read 5139 times.

I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.
AA flies daily with a 763, and AF flies also daily with a 744;
do you think other airlines could fly the route? What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: San747
Posted 2007-10-29 12:25:23 and read 5129 times.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
do you think other airlines could fly the route? What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?

Probably not... MIA is a hub only for AA. The only other airline I could see doing the route is maybe DL, but even that's a stretch...

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Bartond
Posted 2007-10-29 12:27:28 and read 5117 times.

I'm sure MAH will chime in on this, but CO probably would rather route MIA or CDG pax through EWR for their Paris flight. No real reason to start up a random MIA-CDG flight on CO metal. CO might already codeshare with AF via Skyteam but I'm not sure.

I'm sure it's a viable route if AF flies a 744 on it, but AA's big presence at MIA will mean that you'll probably see increased frequencies from them before another carrier begins the route. That and/or increased AF/KL capacity but not a CO flight. The only type of carrier I could see beginning new service would be a charter. MAH, your thoughts?

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2007-10-29 12:29:45 and read 5111 times.

I guess I could see Corsair flying it maybe....maybe

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Futurecaptain
Posted 2007-10-29 12:36:22 and read 5080 times.

AA has the feed to justify long hauls out of MIA. AF has the feed at the CDG end. No one else connects enough passengers at either end to justify the route.
From the MIA web page:
Last year AA/AE served nearly 22 million passengers at MIA. The closest airline to them is Delta with just over 1 million.

Also all the other airlines on the US side have hubs they would like to connect you through which don't involve much backtracking for the passenger. DL through ATL, CO through EWR, US through CLT/PHL, and UA through IAD. None of them could justify transatlantic ops from MIA with the limited feed and nearby hubs.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2007-10-29 12:36:26 and read 5080 times.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.
AA flies daily with a 763, and AF flies also daily with a 744;

Well, AF is the largest French airline with its hub in Paris, thus AF flies MIA-CDG.

AA is the dominant airline at MIA with a powerful hub at that airport, thus, AA flies MIA-CDG.

Seems like two logical carriers are flying the route.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
do you think other airlines could fly the route?

Possibly a carrier flying to a destination beyond Paris under fifth freedoms.....say EK flying MIA-CDG-DXB? Or, under EU open skies, maybe another European airline could take interest in this route....unlikely but possible.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?

Why CO? Their hubs are at CLE, EWR and IAH and have a limited presence at MIA........why would they open a MIA-CDG route in competition with SkyTeam partner AF?

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: LY777
Posted 2007-10-29 12:37:04 and read 5080 times.

yes, but Corsair is a charter; I should have precised that I speak about scheduled ailines

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Longhornmaniac
Posted 2007-10-29 12:38:19 and read 5070 times.

The same reason only AA and LH fly DFW-FRA, or only CO and BA fly IAH-LGW. MIA is a hub for AA, and a spoke for AF, and vice versa for CDG. MIA has a very loyal AAdvantage FF base, and AF offered it in the past I know to connect with their little operation they had at MIA, and to provide service to a large US area.

Another airline (save for Corsair) would be requiring basically on O&D. I don't claim to know that much about scheduling, but there probably aren't TOO many cases of two O&D cities working on a long-haul flight.

Cheers,
Cameron

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Bok269
Posted 2007-10-29 13:44:43 and read 4944 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
yes, but Corsair is a charter; I should have precised that I speak about scheduled ailines

They offer regularly scheduled services as well.

In addition to the connecting traffic in CDG, AF also offers connections from MIA and PAP to numerous French Caribbean destinations.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 13:51:12 and read 4931 times.

There is no viable option for another full-service airline to fly the route.

However, there have always been various, no-start attempts to start all-business class ventures between South Florida and France, to cater to the strong amount of "jet set" demand, and Miami's large and wealthy French ex-pat community. Not surprisingly, none have gotten off the ground. The two most recent attempts have been from a group of French investors in 2003-04 who wanted to begin an all-business class 757 service between Fort Lauderdale and Nice, and, just last year, a Miami company, ICON International Holdings, that wants to emulate the Eos/Maxjet model for the Miami market (as well as competing in the New York market), with Miami-Paris being one of the "phase II" markets. ICON is still in the planning stages, but I wouldn't hold my breathe for them to ever launch.

http://www.flyicon.com/

If another airline ever entered the South Florida-Paris market, it would be Delta from Fort Lauderdale, IMO. I think they could do very well with an FLL-CDG service.

[Edited 2007-10-29 13:57:14]

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 13:55:04 and read 4924 times.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 7):
and AF offered it in the past I know to connect with their little operation they had at MIA,

AF has never offered connecting operations at MIA. Air France has been flying MIA-PAP for nearly 30 years, well before they started MIA-CDG (which started circa 1987-88, IIRC). The Port Au Prince flight has never been purposely timed to connect to Paris. As it is now, the daily A320 to Port Au Prince departs MIA in the morning, and arrives after sunset. The only way to connect CDG-PAP or PAP-CDG on Air France via Miami is to overnight in Miami.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Longhornmaniac
Posted 2007-10-29 14:01:42 and read 4893 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
AF has never offered connecting operations at MIA. Air France has been flying MIA-PAP for nearly 30 years, well before they started MIA-CDG (which started circa 1987-88, IIRC). The Port Au Prince flight has never been purposely timed to connect to Paris. As it is now, the daily A320 to Port Au Prince departs MIA in the morning, and arrives after sunset. The only way to connect CDG-PAP or PAP-CDG on Air France via Miami is to overnight in Miami.

Interesting. I may be thinking of IB, didn't/don't they have a narrowbody operation in MIA? I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

Mark, WHEN IS THAT AA MIA-AUS ROUTE COMING!?!?!?!

Cheers,
Cameron

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2007-10-29 14:05:13 and read 4875 times.

I cant think of another airline where MIA-CDG would be a viable choice. As Mark pointed out (and I agree with him), if another carrier comes in with South Florida-Paris service it will be DL with FLL-CDG.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
Mark, WHEN IS THAT AA MIA-AUS ROUTE COMING!?!?!?!

For the life of me, I cant figure out why AA decided AUS-SNA was a more viable choice than AUS-MIA.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 14:16:40 and read 4844 times.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

Air France does have daily A320 service to Miami from Port Au Prince, operating as a multi-stop flight to/from various French territories, but always stopping in PAP before continuing to the French territories. It leaves Miami every morning at around 8.30AM, and arrives every night at around 8PM. The operation, though, does not feed the Paris flight. It's pure O&D.

Air France is popular with travelers on the Miami-Haiti market. Even though their fares are about the same as AA, they have hot meal service, even in coach, during the less than two hour flight.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Aussiestu
Posted 2007-10-29 14:37:51 and read 4784 times.

Is there any other scheduled airline in france to compete with AF to fly this route. While AA has loads of competitors in the US to compete with it on the MIA-CDG route none of them choose to do so. But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 14:47:17 and read 4763 times.

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 14):
But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

AOM, a French airline that existed between 1988 and 2001, competed with Air France to Miami in the late 1980s and early 1990s. They also flew to LAX.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: FoxXray
Posted 2007-10-29 14:51:16 and read 4751 times.

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 14):
Is there any other scheduled airline in france to compete with AF to fly this route. While AA has loads of competitors in the US to compete with it on the MIA-CDG route none of them choose to do so. But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

Miami is a popular destination in France so i think that Corsair could easily make money from ORY to MIA and probably from LYS during summer... but Corsair didn't fly to the USA since 5 or 6 years !

It would be nice to see them flying back to the USA in the future.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 14:54:58 and read 4732 times.

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 16):

Miami is a popular destination in France so i think that Corsair could easily make money from ORY to MIA and probably from LYS during summer... but Corsair didn't fly to the USA since 5 or 6 years !

More so than Lyon, I bet you Corsair could maybe do well running MIA-NCE 2-3x a week with the right sized aircraft. The majority of Miami's French ex-pat community comes from areas surrounding Nice, not Paris. However, I really don't think that they want to focus on the US market right now, and I think they would have a difficult time stealing traffic from Air France and American, even if they offered a non-stop to another market that bypassed Paris.

If Corsair ever did decide to return to the US, Miami and Los Angeles are the obvious choices.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: FoxXray
Posted 2007-10-29 15:02:40 and read 4716 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

Yes, Corsair fly mostly to French territories but also to Montreal (from April to October) and they are doing very well on this route with 744 and A332.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-10-29 15:04:35 and read 4710 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
If another airline ever entered the South Florida-Paris market, it would be Delta from Fort Lauderdale, IMO. I think they could do very well with an FLL-CDG service.

Wonder if we'll see something along those lines circa 2010+, now that they could essentially operate the flight as an extension of AF, should all go as expected with the jv.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: FoxXray
Posted 2007-10-29 15:04:40 and read 4710 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
If Corsair ever did decide to return to the US, Miami and Los Angeles are the obvious choices.

Yes, i think so.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: FlyMIA
Posted 2007-10-29 15:31:09 and read 4660 times.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.

I think the real question is why is AA the only airline flying MIA-JFK (besides for DL two flights) MIA-BOS, MIA-DCA, MIA-LAX, MIA-SFO. These are some routes that need some more competition. Hopefully Virgin America will come in on some of these.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: OB1504
Posted 2007-10-29 16:26:25 and read 4593 times.

Quoting Bartond (Reply 2):
I'm sure it's a viable route if AF flies a 744 on it

And an A380 in a year or two.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
Interesting. I may be thinking of IB, didn't/don't they have a narrowbody operation in MIA? I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

IB based a few MD-80s—and later, A319s—at MIA to provide onward connections to several destinations in Central America. When visas began to be required even for connecting passengers, IB dismantled the focus city and said Central American destinations gained their own nonstop flights to MAD.

AF currently uses one—soon to be two—A320s to link MIA with the French territories in the Caribbean.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2007-10-29 16:29:12 and read 4587 times.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 3):
I guess I could see Corsair flying it maybe....maybe

I would see FLL as more likely given the nature of the business into the Miami area.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):

Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

They also flew to Los Angeles for a very long time, carrying both local and through traffic on all 3 routes along the ORY-LAX-PPT route. The emergence of TN as a major competitor pushed them out.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-10-29 17:16:19 and read 4542 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
They also flew to Los Angeles for a very long time

...didn't they also fly to OAK?

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: GARUDAROD
Posted 2007-10-29 17:32:43 and read 4514 times.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 21):
I think the real question is why is AA the only airline flying MIA-JFK (besides for DL two flights) MIA-BOS, MIA-DCA, MIA-LAX, MIA-SFO. These are some routes that need some more competition. Hopefully Virgin America will come in on some of these.

SFO-MIA, LAX-MIA, and JFK-MIA will most certainly be the first flights Virgin America announce when they
commence service to MIA next year some time.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2007-10-29 17:48:42 and read 4554 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 24):
...didn't they also fly to OAK?

Yes, as noted earlier.

Many will remember the September 1999 incursion involving a Corsair 747 at LAX.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-29 19:06:05 and read 4505 times.

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 25):

SFO-MIA, LAX-MIA, and JFK-MIA will most certainly be the first flights Virgin America announce when they
commence service to MIA next year some time.

As I heard today: morning and evening departures to SFO; evening departure to LAX; morning, mid-day, and evening departures to JFK at launch; morning and evening departures to Dulles a few months after launch.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-10-29 20:09:22 and read 4397 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
For the life of me, I cant figure out why AA decided AUS-SNA was a more viable choice than AUS-MIA.

Bio-tech and medical companies.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: ElmoTheHobo
Posted 2007-10-29 21:15:07 and read 4350 times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 24):
...didn't they also fly to OAK?

Yup, ORY-OAK-PPT.

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Goldorak
Posted 2007-10-30 00:06:24 and read 4284 times.

Quoting Bartond (Reply 2):
CO might already codeshare with AF via Skyteam but I'm not sure

not a CO code-share but a DL one on CDG-MIA

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 22):
And an A380 in a year or two.

 no  MIA is not on the "priority" list of A380 destinations for AF (these are YUL, NRT, JFK, LAX). At the moment, as far as I know, there is no plan for AF to serve MIA with an A380 (this has been discussed numerous times on A.net)

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2007-10-30 00:44:44 and read 4269 times.

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 30):
MIA is not on the "priority" list of A380 destinations for AF (these are YUL, NRT, JFK, LAX). At the moment, as far as I know, there is no plan for AF to serve MIA with an A380 (this has been discussed numerous times on A.net)

Not this again.

As it has been discussed many times, while it is certainly not a priority, and while I would not hold my breathe for it to happen in the near future, it is not out of the question. Air France has been in discussions with MIA about, and representatives from Air France (and Lufthansa) met with MIA officials a few weeks ago to tour MIA's new South Concourse and look at MIA's A380 plans.

Concourse J will also include a gate that can accommodate the new Airbus A380, a double-deck, 525-passenger airliner manufactured by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company. The A380's full economy-class design can accommodate up to 853 passengers.

Mr. Fajardo said it would take approximately 18 months to modify the gate to accommodate the A380, so the airport needs a "two-year head start" and a commitment from an airline before proceeding. Both Air France and Lufthansa have expressed interest in flying the A380 into Miami International.

Lufthansa spokeswoman Jennifer Urbaniak said the airline is considering Miami among other possibilities. "Miami is certainly one possibility," she said. "Other cities we are studying include New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Washington, DC. We'll take delivery of our first A380 in 2009 but are yet to decide where this first plane will operate to. Key hubs in North America and Asia are the priorities." Air France did not respond to inquiries.

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/070816/story6.shtml

Topic: RE: Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2007-10-30 08:51:37 and read 4118 times.

What other airlines have hubs there?


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