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Topic: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 17:23:15 and read 6189 times.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...e/2007/Oct/30/br/br1698025437.html

http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=6357

Just broke.

Grteat news for AQ and HA.

-Aloha!

[Edited 2007-10-30 17:24:57]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: KingCavalier
Posted 2007-10-30 17:27:08 and read 6167 times.

Wow. I'm sure HA and AQ would be happy with just having Mesa exit Hawaii all together. Maybe a deal can be worked out to excuse the $80M.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-30 17:33:19 and read 6132 times.

Big deal so they get 80 mil. Insurance will cover that and J.O. will continue his crap. Mesa may have "lost" 80 mil but they will make that up in due time. Unfortunatly J.O. .will push one of them out of business. Now he can use what he knows because the 80 mil is the settlement for AQ and HA. Now those $9 fares will run crazy and AQ and HA will feel it in the long run. AQ and HA may have "won" now but unfortunatly I think one of them will lose in the long run then Mesa can step in and take the place of the one who had closed up shop, raise prices, and gouge the people of Hawaii with high fares like HA and AQ are doing now. I'd rather see Mesa go but I just don't think it will happen.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2007-10-30 17:33:47 and read 6133 times.

Don't hold your breath HA.

I'm sure Mesa will appeal and make full use of its legal options.

Just last week read Exxon Valdez award is still being debated by courts 20 years later, after having been already halved two times

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Woodsboy
Posted 2007-10-30 17:39:53 and read 6083 times.

I cant say that I feel "gouged" by $29-89 I pay for interisland flights on HA or AQ, Just last week we bought two one way tickets from LIH to HNL for $80 bux, seems decent to me! I also always check what GO! is charging before I buy my tickets on one of the other two and recently GO! has been slightly more, but still in the same general range. I havent actually flown on Go! but when I am on HA or AQ the flights are usually pretty full, it has always seemed to me that the capacity seems about right for the business that exists for interisland travel, not counting Go, I dont know how full they run. What about the little guys like Island Air and Pacific Wings? They also seems to be hanging in there, but I know they serve the smaller airports. Those are my thoughts.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2007-10-30 17:42:43 and read 6056 times.

Why is this good news for AQ? The money is going to HA.

Good of the judge to not bar go! from selling tickets.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Bicoastal
Posted 2007-10-30 17:56:49 and read 5979 times.

Quoting Woodsboy (Reply 4):
I cant say that I feel "gouged" by $29-89 I pay for interisland flights on HA or AQ, Just last week we bought two one way tickets from LIH to HNL for $80 bux, seems decent to me!

Only because Go is in the market. If it wasn't, you'd be paying much more on Aloha and Hawaiian. Thank Go for your low interisland prices.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-30 17:56:56 and read 5979 times.

YV already has been having bad financial performance and this will not help, insurance pay out of not.

It highly Ironic that JO decided to risk this lawsuit to operate just 5 CRJ's in Hawai'i.

The stock price has already been down over 40% just in the last 12 months for Mesa, this will only hurt it

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=1y&s...n&z=m&q=l&c=luv&c=%5EGSPC&c=%5EDJI

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: ACVitale
Posted 2007-10-30 18:38:51 and read 5875 times.

Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

Also this does not resolve the AQ lawsuit against YV

This does nothing to mitigate an anti-trust/price dumping lawsuit from AQ and HA against YV.

Call this the first battle win. The war is still being fought!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 18:46:20 and read 5857 times.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 8):
Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

And also, the policy limits (maximum payout).

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2007-10-30 18:49:30 and read 5845 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Mesa may have "lost" 80 mil but they will make that up in due time.

Yes, by paying their flight crews even less money!  Wink

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Just last week read Exxon Valdez award is still being debated by courts 20 years later

Don't exagerate! It's only been 18 years!!

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Thank Go for your low interisland prices.

Competition is the greatest invention since our predecessors learned to walk upright. But "dumping" to gain market share is not being competitive and it's not in the best interests of any market.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 8):
Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

Also this does not resolve the AQ lawsuit against YV

This does nothing to mitigate an anti-trust/price dumping lawsuit from AQ and HA against YV.

Call this the first battle win. The war is still being fought!

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 18:58:30 and read 5800 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
Why is this good news for AQ? The money is going to HA.

Its good for Aloha because it means they are more likely to win their suit (the judge previously ruled that they have a STRONGER case than Hawaiian).

It also means that the Mesa Board of Directors is more likely to tell JO to cut his losses and get out of Hawai'i. They are FAR from being even remotely close to profitable....and this certainly doesn't help. Check the stock price tomorrow and you'll see what I mean. Remember the BOD has a responisbility to the shareholders; not JO.

Perhaps they will try to settle with AQ....."we'll pay you $20 million in cash, and leave now, and rebook all of passengers on your flights."

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-30 19:10:08 and read 5765 times.

AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 19:26:23 and read 5716 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices.

I contend their prices were fair. Heres why:

* The market hasn't grown with the rock-bottom prices (No "Southwest Effect"). To me this says that everyone who wanted to fly was flying before.

* If you weren't flying on the 10 busiest days of the year at the busiest times you were paying $60-80 each way; which is comparable to similar routes on the mainland.

*PDX-SEA is most similar in my eyes and Horizon's fares were MUCH higher that interisland fares. Also WN's routes within Texas, California and Florida were on par or HIGHER than interisland fares.

NOW, I ask....what is wrong with a company making a profit?? If it costs them about $60 to provide a service, whats wrong with charging $70?? Do you expect Wal-Mart or Costco to sell you toilet paper that cost them $1 per roll for 50 cents?? Or Ford to sell you a $20,000 car for $12,000??

People should expect to pay what it costs to provide a service or product, plus a little more.

If Mesa had come in with lowwer costs than AQ and HA and challenged them fairly on price (Mesa's lower costs plus a small profit), that would be one thing. They do not have lower costs, they have HIGHER COSTS than AQ and HA.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2007-10-30 19:27:57 and read 5717 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge.

Have you read up at all about this lawsuit? AQ and HA didn't go to court over the fact that GO is flying on the island. It's how they made the decision to enter. The court found that Mesa used proprietary information from the 2 airlines in order to decide to start GO. The court found that Mesa had used information that was confidential and that they had agreed would not be used for such purposes.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: ACVitale
Posted 2007-10-30 19:41:24 and read 5669 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?

Sadly, To make such a statement shows a clear lack of understanding of the actual costs, fares, and even this specific situation.

There is nothing insane about $59 for a 1 hr hop. Tell me the problem with that fare.

Do you believe that Mesa which has a higher cost structure is making money on $9/$19/$29 fares when the break even is going to be $59/$69/$79

To support YV which violated confidentiality and then make comments about kicking AQ and HA off the mainline is just juvenile and frankly has me baffled.

Are you one who feels that you are entitled and that every company owes you a free ride... Or nearly free ?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-30 19:52:55 and read 5624 times.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 15):
Are you one who feels that you are entitled and that every company owes you a free ride... Or nearly free ?

No, charge what is necessary for the route but in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years then when compitition comes in they cry because they can't get away with murder anymore.


The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.


No Mesa is not making money in HI, everyone knows that. The mainland fee for departure flights are making up for the loss in HI. What gets me is that HA an AQ are scared of Mesa and their 5 plane CRJ operation. There should be no fear from Mesa even if they do only charge $9. 5 CRJ's are not going to take down AQ or HA unless their business plan is so bad.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 19:58:46 and read 5611 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years

Prove it. Many people say they are gouging but don't back it up with facts. How many interisland tickets have you ever bought?? Is Southwest "Gouging" with thei $100 fares from between Southern and Norther California??

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!

There currently isn't a "$59 fare."

go!'s fares are of the $1, $9, $19, $29 and $39 variety.

$59 is actually what AQ and HA charged as sale fares before anyone in Hawai'i had even heard of go! or Mesa (2003, 2004).

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-30 20:04:16 and read 5580 times.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
Is Southwest "Gouging" with thei $100 fares from between Southern and Norther California??

This is not about WN. But i'm sure if WN decided to come to HI and charged $69 from LAX-HNL or something like that both AQ and HI would be once again crying because someone has offered lower prices.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-30 20:11:20 and read 5550 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 18):
This is not about WN. But i'm sure if WN decided to come to HI and charged $69 from LAX-HNL or something like that both AQ and HI would be once again crying because someone has offered lower prices.

I was providing one of many examples of one of many similar routes on the mainland that have fares which are higher than the fares AQ and HA charged. You (or anyone) has yet to prove that HA and AQ have gouged anyone.

If Southwest decided to fly from the mainland to Hawai'i, they wouldn't charge $69.....they are way to smart for that. I'm not sure why you brought that up. LA to HNL (for example) is probably one of the most competitive routes in the US with daily service from AA, UA, DL, NW, CO, ATA, HA, AQ and probably someone else. HA and AQ compete just fine on these routes, and do so profitably (they both make $$ on mainland flights) while providing better service than the other carriers.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2007-10-30 20:15:31 and read 5530 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Insurance will cover that

I agree with ACVitale on this. While it's a civil judgement, not criminal, Mesa's actions were not inadvertent and the consequences were avoidable. The insurance company will likely be filing its own suit if Mesa submits a claim.

Note also in the judgement that interest begins accruing on the $80 million as of the day of the judgement. Delaying the award through the appeals process won't stop that accrual.

Look also for a shareholders' suit against Mesa if the judgement is upheld on any appeal.

[Edited 2007-10-30 20:17:48]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: ACVitale
Posted 2007-10-30 20:42:46 and read 5439 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.

Ahh.... I remember 99 roundtrip 49.50 each way before go! was a dream.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Searpqx
Posted 2007-10-30 22:25:17 and read 5310 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.

Sorry bud - but reality disagrees w/ your rant. I lived in Hawaii (Maui) for three years prior to Mesa's arrival, and the most I ever paid, was $98, last minute, OW OGG-KOA. OGG-HNL planned in advance usually ran between 150-180 for two of us RT.

Not only that, but because fares had finally stabilized, not only did I have frequent jet service on AQ & HA to HNL, I had the option of frequent Island Air service to the other islands, and Island Air was about to expand service and add new planes. Guess what - they're down to 4 planes (I think -not sure of the exact number) and where there used to be 5+ NS OGG to KOA, there are now three.

I am the worlds biggest advocate of true competition, but Go was nothing more than attempt to drive a weak competitor out of the market using questionable (at best) practices. JO himself said that once the market 'rationalized' Go would raise prices.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Hawaiian717
Posted 2007-10-30 22:39:45 and read 5279 times.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
Not only that, but because fares had finally stabilized, not only did I have frequent jet service on AQ & HA to HNL, I had the option of frequent Island Air service to the other islands, and Island Air was about to expand service and add new planes.

Before Go showed up, Island Air was competing on the major routes as well as serving the secondary markets and was offering some great deals, significantly undercutting HA and AQ. Nobody was complaining then.

As has been said before, the problem is not that Go is offering low fares. The problem is that they're doing it with proprietary information that they had access to as a potential bidder in both HA and AQ's bankruptcies and were supposed to have destroyed.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Georgebush
Posted 2007-10-30 23:14:20 and read 5216 times.

I say everyone should boycott GO! entirely. In my opinion we should also write UA DL and US to tell them to drop Mesa or we will find another express flight on a different carrier to fly with. If you get 50 of their biggest corporate clients, you might be able to get your point across.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: T prop
Posted 2007-10-30 23:53:46 and read 5183 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?

Kick HA and AQ off the mainland? You sound like a spiteful child. You want to talk about fair? Mesa's version of fair just cost them $80 mil, good thing the judge didn't award the full amount to HA , at least some will be left for AQ. Now that's being fair.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2007-10-31 00:12:04 and read 5357 times.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):
Note also in the judgement that interest begins accruing on the $80 million as of the day of the judgement. Delaying the award through the appeals process won't stop that accrual.

An appeal can have the whole award thrown out, or significantly reduced mitigating any interest that might or might not accrue and which itself is subject to review or amendment by a higher court.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 00:15:42 and read 5354 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
An appeal can have the whole award thrown out, or significantly reduced mitigating any interest that might or might not accrue and which itself is subject to review or amendment by a higher court.

Or the appeals court could refuse to hear the case and let the judgement stand.

I'm no lawyer....does anyone know if the fact the trial was in banruptcy court affects how/if it can be appealed, and if so to what court??

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2007-10-31 00:26:39 and read 5339 times.

The fares GO are charging are irrelevant. If a company wants to lose money that is their business. Stupidity is not a crime although it should be in some cases.

The point is confidential information was used to establish GO to begin with. By MESA being a potential buyer they had access to confidential information. Think of it in terms of insider trading or stealing the formula for Coca Cola and starting a competitor at a much, much lower cost.

The courts could care less what an airline charges, unless it is a monopoly.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2007-10-31 00:56:25 and read 5299 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
An appeal can have the whole award thrown out,

Yep, but I said "delaying the award" not overturning it.


The appeals process can be a lengthy one:

A bankruptcy court is authorized to decide all referred business, except in limited matters known as “non-core” proceedings. If one of the parties does not consent to entry of a judgment by the bankruptcy judge in these proceedings, the bankruptcy court may only hear the matter and submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law to the district court. The district judge then enters the final order, which is subject to review by the courts of appeals or bankruptcy appellate panels.

[Edited 2007-10-31 01:00:54]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2007-10-31 01:17:00 and read 5275 times.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 27):
does anyone know if the fact the trial was in bankruptcy court affects how/if it can be appealed, and if so to what court??

While not airline related I know of a California based industrial paint/solvent manufacturer whom had emerged from BK and filed a case back BK court alleging harm had been done to it during its BK process and won at trial held in the BK court.

The defendant appealed to district/curcuit courts claiming the BK court was the incorrect jurisdiction for the claim to begin with and also that the BK court was biased in favor of claimant as the court had interest in the well being of the the company having just heard its BK case.

The defendant won on appeal forcing and the whole thing to start over from scratch.

Off course this was in the mid/late 90s, so I dont know if the recent bankruptcy law amendments would change any potential appeal process, however doubt it especially when one considers the magnitude of the $80mil award.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: T prop
Posted 2007-10-31 01:25:14 and read 5259 times.

If Mesa appeals they have to put up a chunk of change as a bond that is held until the outcome of the appeal is decided. Anyone have a clue as to how much they have to put up, is it the whole 80 mil, a percentage of that, if so how much?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2007-10-31 01:33:54 and read 5252 times.

Found this Mesa press release, and indeed they are talking about an appellate process.

Quote:
Mesa Air Group, Inc. Comments on Recent Court Proceedings
Wednesday October 31,

PHOENIX, Oct. 31 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Mesa Air Group, Inc. announced today that it will seek to overturn the ruling rendered today by the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of Hawaii in the breach of contract lawsuit brought by Hawaiian Airlines, Inc.

Under that ruling, the court found Mesa violated the terms of a confidentiality agreement with Hawaiian Airlines and awarded Hawaiian $80 million in damages. This ruling arises out of the Court's finding that the Company's executive vice president and chief financial officer, George Peter Murnane, intentionally and in bad faith destroyed evidence pertinent to Hawaiian's case against Mesa.

The Court rejected Hawaiian's bid to prohibit go! from selling tickets, which Mesa believes was Hawaiian's primary intention in filing suit. go!'s regularly scheduled services are ongoing and the Company remains committed to provide the highest quality lowest cost service in the Hawaiian inter-island market.

"We are obviously very disappointed with this judgment. The order is not a result of a jury finding, but from a Bankruptcy Judge who entered sanctions against Mesa concerning evidentiary issues. We believe these sanctions went too far and that an impartial appellate court will find the sanctions and this judgment should be set aside," said Jonathan Ornstein, Chairman and Chief Executive of Mesa Airlines.

"As we have pointed out from the inception of this case, Hawaiian's true motive in filing suit was to stifle competition and maintain the high fares and reduced capacity fostered by the inter-island duopoly led by Hawaiian Airlines.

Full story;
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071031/law098.html?.v=98

The release does also mention that Mesa would post a bond or letter of credit as security during the appeal. (in other worlds becoming restricted cash on the balance sheet)


Additionally Judge Faris full decision can be read at
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2007/Oct/30/mesaruling.pdf

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-10-31 01:45:32 and read 5237 times.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 28):
The fares GO are charging are irrelevant. If a company wants to lose money that is their business.

Actually, it's not. Not when that company is only a branch of a much larger company.

Product dumping to destroy a market is considered a crime because it is detrimental to society. The long term costs are higher to everyone. It's a monopolistic approach.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2007-10-31 01:46:26 and read 5236 times.

I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-10-31 01:57:53 and read 5216 times.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

That doesn't jive with what others have said, but let's assume that was true.

Were the flights full? Close to full?

If so, why should any company voluntarily charge less than customers are willing to pay if they are filling their planes? And if there was room for another carrier to enter at a lower price and make a profit, why didn't anyone enter before go!? And why wasn't go! making a profit?

Things that make one go hmmmm....

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 02:09:57 and read 5211 times.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

In the 6 months prior to go!'s entry in June 2006 most (if not all) of the sale fares disappeared. My guess is that AQ and HA were pricing conservatively based on the unknown that was coming. During this period the regular fare fluctuated between $68 and $78.

Since the elimination of coupons after 9/11, fares rose to about the $60-80 level, with cheaper sales. I remember Aloha doing a $99 roundtrip sale (mentioned above; presumably matched by HA). I also know that Aloha sold flight coupons for $58 for their 58th Anniversary (July 2004).

As always, if you were flying on a Friday at 4 or 5pm, or a Sunday at 7pm the flights were full and last minute tickets were unavailable, or over $100. I think this is reasonable.

My parent's company has offices on O'ahu, Kaua'i and in Hilo, plus occasional projects on Maui. My Dad flies atleast once a month. My experience before go! was that tickets on Aloha were almost always available in the $60-80 range if you planned atleast a few days in advance and weren't flying at the peak times (Sometimes they were more, but sometimes they were less). I don't recall their company ever paying more than $90 for a one-way ticket.

To me, pre-go! pricing was economically rational and served the market well.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 02:12:30 and read 5210 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
Were the flights full? Close to full?

As a sidenote, the demand for seats is why Aloha removed First Class from its 737-200 interisland fleet. I recall that often, the flights at peak times were sold out and all that was left was First Class, which rarely filled up with revenue passengers). Complaints over these higher last minute (F-Class) fares led to the removal of First Class in favor of an increase in coach seats.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-10-31 02:17:04 and read 5192 times.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 36):
To me, pre-go! pricing was economically rational and served the market well.

I assume that if the flights were full, there were enough customers willing to pay those fares.

Again, there will always be the faction of people who believe they are being cheated no matter how much they pay. But if HA and AQ were filling their planes with those fares and they still were fighting off bankruptcy, what does that say? It either says the costs were too high, or the fares were not high enough (or both). Since much of the costs were labor, was the answer to cut salaries of HA and AQ employees? Wouldn't we just have a different group of people bitching?  Wink

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: SpencerII
Posted 2007-10-31 03:54:34 and read 5154 times.

Mesa's Response.....

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....-newsArticle&ID=1070019&highlight=

the ruling was from a "Bankrupcty Judge", This will be overturned very quickly I'm sure, which will catapult this to a higher court.

[Edited 2007-10-31 04:00:02]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Ha763
Posted 2007-10-31 04:49:41 and read 5103 times.

I think that it's good that Mesa has to pay because they were stupid enough to get caught. I also hope their appeals fail as well. If it wasn't for J.O. opening his mouth about being able to check out the books of HA and AQ while they were in bankruptcy, they would have pretty much have gotten away with it. This was the point where HA decided to look in on the issue and sue. I'm glad this happened and HA pursued the issue since it has exposed Mesa to be a cheat and not some low fare champion for the people of Hawaii.

I always felt that as long as HA showed one document that was not normally publicly available, they would win a substantial amount. Well, it looks like that they showed a whole bunch of documents that were not normally available to the public.

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 23):
Before Go showed up, Island Air was competing on the major routes as well as serving the secondary markets and was offering some great deals, significantly undercutting HA and AQ. Nobody was complaining then.

Most of Island Air's fares were not that much lower HA and AQ. However, Island Air did have a regular $50 fare sale that was was $10-15 lower than HA and AQ's lowest fare at the time.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

This is the kind of half-truths that keep the "interisland fares are too high" crowd going. The only time we hear about high fares are during the high demand periods, but they don't say that, especially on the news broadcasts. The news stations always go to the airport during the busy holiday travel season to interview people and they just say, "I paid X amount and it's too high," and, "It's so crowded." We are not told what time they are flying or how early they booked unless they are proud that they got a low fare because they booked early.

I don't know why people are complaining about roundtrip fares that averaged around $150 being too expensive. During the ending of the interisland coupon days, the price of an interisland coupon was over $70. You needed 2 of them to fly roundtrip, so you would have paid over $140. Yet, nobody was complaining about being ripped off like they are now after the ending of the coupon system.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-31 07:00:35 and read 4978 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices

HA and AQ are consistently cheaper than their main land counterparts even before go!. Try to buy a ticket from BOS to LGA (112 dollars only with 14 day advance r/t purchase and only Tues and Wed) or LAX to SFO (103 dollars one way 2 week advance) .

When you figure in how much more expensive jet A is on HAwai'i due to it having to be tankered to the islands, you can see AQ and HA are a deal.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
No, charge what is necessary for the route but in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years then when compitition comes in they cry because they can't get away with murder anymore.

Absolutley false. HA and AQ are very price competitive with other US carriers.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 28):
If a company wants to lose money that is their business.

Actually if a subsidiary company shows a systematic purposeful loss for long periods of time, the IRS tends to have some issues with that.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2007-10-31 12:31:36 and read 4537 times.

I was not referring to the IRS aspect of losing money, that is not what is being discussed. Some are taking the judges ruling and trying to say his ruling had to do with the fares being charged. It did not. Now off topic a bit. Airlines frequently charge fares below cost in order to get established and it happens all the time. They even charges fares below cost to get rid of competition, specifically new entrants, and the courts do not get involved in these and I have yet to hear of the IRS getting involved. Not that they cant in certain circumstances.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 12:36:52 and read 4494 times.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 42):
I was not referring to the IRS aspect of losing money, that is not what is being discussed. Some are taking the judges ruling and trying to say his ruling had to do with the fares being charged.

You are correct. The ruling was about the breach of contract and unethical/illegal actions of Mesa and its executives. The fares charged only come into play when calculating how much Mesa's actions have cost HA. Obviously, lower fares lead to greater losses.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Kstatepilot
Posted 2007-10-31 13:01:17 and read 4335 times.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 41):
LAX to SFO

Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 13:10:00 and read 4289 times.

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

Remember that there is a point on ultra short flights where they become more expensive due to the lack of cruise at altitude and the extreme number of cycles.

Comparing Interisland routes with routes on the mainland is hard because they are SO short (similar length routes on the mainland wouldn't be flown by more than 30 roundtrips per day on mainline jets) making comaprisons hard. PDX-SEA, DAL-AUS and OAK-RNO seem closest to me.....ALL of which generally have higher fares than interisland routes.

-Aloha!

[Edited 2007-10-31 13:10:48]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Bicoastal
Posted 2007-10-31 13:56:29 and read 4014 times.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
In my opinion we should also write UA DL and US to tell them to drop Mesa or we will find another express flight on a different carrier to fly with

United owns a nice chunk of Aloha. And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-31 14:13:00 and read 3918 times.

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

BOS-LGA is only 160 NM. there are several more markets than HNL-LIH, OGG is a ways further. and yet Go! has have cheap fares there too.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=b...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Not officially.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: HAL
Posted 2007-10-31 14:26:11 and read 3853 times.

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

Then let's try a closer distance. Phoenix to Tucson is about 108n.m.
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice. Distance has much less to do with airfares than most people believe. The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance. It doesn't matter if you went across town, it still costs a large percentage of what it costs to fly across the country.

HAL

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-31 14:28:14 and read 3837 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance

totally agree. that same one way BOS-LGA fare with 1 day advance is 336 dollars one way, I was being kind when I used the round trip 14 day advance.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Imapilotaz
Posted 2007-10-31 14:44:08 and read 3756 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
Then let's try a closer distance. Phoenix to Tucson is about 108n.m.
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice. Distance has much less to do with airfares than most people believe. The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance. It doesn't matter if you went across town, it still costs a large percentage of what it costs to fly across the country.

This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines. Mesa does not set any fares or do anything except be a "mass transit company" for US Airways. US Airways sets everything from schedules to fares and Mesa has no say in it. Also, there is virtually 0 "true local" traffic from PHX-TUS, as its an easy 2 hour drive. US has those flights for connections, and the fares are likely $30-$60 more expensive than Phoenix. If you do a normal square root of the miles pro-ration, then the PHX-TUS leg of a connecting itinerary is unequivically being sold WAY below cost. Should that be considered predatory? No. Its worth the loss on one route for the betterment of the entire company (US). You could say that the loss of go! in the short term while trying to prove its viability of offering a stand alone product is worth the loss to the whole Mesa Air Group. Granted that was before they got hit with $80M judgement. Now, it likely isnt worth it.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 15:11:49 and read 3647 times.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines.

HAL is a 767 First Officer for Hawaiian Airlines and I guarantee he knows alot more than you do...especially with regard to Hawai'i and our interisland market.

Regardless of which airline is charging the fare, someone brought up a comparison of routes in miles and he countered with a route of similar length with higher fares than AQ or HA EVER have charged.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-31 16:13:03 and read 3356 times.

[

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines

first of all this type of flame bait is just wrong.

You will not find ANY EC or US domestic carrier cheaper on a terminating segment length basis than AQ or HA (excepting Ryanair, EasyJet and Skybus or WN's PIT-PHL 19 dollar sometimes special) pre or post Go! . That is a fact.

[Edited 2007-10-31 16:28:43]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Georgebush
Posted 2007-10-31 16:44:08 and read 3211 times.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Who would UA get to pick up all that flying?? You know United as well as I do, they look the other way untill its THEIR problem. UAX Mesa is the most rag tag operation I have ever seen in my life. Their pilots are inexperienced, the a/c falling apart, the worst bag hits in the industry, and the worst on-time BY FAR. I am sure UA will get rid of them when possible, its just a matter of time (OO has already replaced some of their UAX flying). JO knows this too, thats why he is going into China (STUPID) and started GO!

I am just not sure how well they are doing for US and DL, but for UA they blow.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2007-10-31 16:58:58 and read 3120 times.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 53):
I am sure UA will get rid of them when possible, its just a matter of time

Unlikely for a while. UA just contracted Mesa for even more flying -- 22 CRJ700s on 10 year terms commencing in 2008.

In the big picture Mesa does fine for UAX.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-10-31 17:12:53 and read 3051 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 54):
In the big picture Mesa does fine for UAX.

Especially when UA can cancel YV's flights into and out of UA hubs to get their own metal in during irregular ops and then ping them for not hitting ontime performance for their contract escalators  Smile

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-31 17:18:51 and read 3024 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice.

Sure this is Mesa charging this and not Mesa flying for US Airways Express who would set the price on that route?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-31 17:21:33 and read 3017 times.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 53):
Their pilots are inexperienced, the a/c falling apart, the worst bag hits in the industry, and the worst on-time BY FAR.

You need to get the facts together first before posting very incorrect information like this. When you do come back and post the correct findings Mr. Bush.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: 777fan
Posted 2007-10-31 17:21:34 and read 3010 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Unfortunatly J.O. .will push one of them out of business.



Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 13):
To me this says that everyone who wanted to fly was flying before.

Certainly not the case. I knew of many people that wanted to fly to the other islands pre-go! but couldn't afford to do so. The lower fares that go! forced on the market worked wonders for those that want to come to HNL to shop or visit family and friends on the other islands.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
United owns a nice chunk of Aloha. And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Bold prediction: go! leaves the Isles, AQ dumps its 732s, UA buys a bigger stake in AQ and contracts Mesa to fly AQ's interisland routes on Mesa RJs!!!


777fan

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-10-31 17:29:29 and read 2963 times.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 58):
Certainly not the case. I knew of many people that wanted to fly to the other islands pre-go! but couldn't afford to do so. The lower fares that go! forced on the market worked wonders for those that want to come to HNL to shop or visit family and friends on the other islands.

The numbers simply do not pan this out. The market has grown between 3% and 8% on a 20% capacity increase and a 50-75% decrease in fares. This (the extra 3-8%) is hardly a segment of consumers worth fighting over. Businesses need to focus on consumers who are willing to pay enough to cover costs. Mesa does NOT have lower costs and therefore there is no rational justification for lower fares.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: HPAEAA
Posted 2007-10-31 17:29:50 and read 2964 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
80 mil is the settlement for AQ and HA.

no it's not.. and GO can't continue to use the information.. the 80 MM is the penalty for illegally using the info in the first palace.. the AQ HA lawsuit is still out there... we'll see how that turns out... Mesa may heave in order to mitigate the damage on this one and shed money losing operations..

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Imapilotaz
Posted 2007-10-31 17:44:01 and read 2931 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 57):
You need to get the facts together first before posting very incorrect information like this. When you do come back and post the correct findings Mr. Bush.

Wow Freshlove, I believe that may be the first halfway positive comment ive seen from you about Mesa.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Freshlove1
Posted 2007-10-31 17:56:19 and read 2919 times.

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 60):
no it's not.. and GO can't continue to use the information.. the 80 MM is the penalty for illegally using the info in the first palace.. the AQ HA lawsuit is still out there... we'll see how that turns out... Mesa may heave in order to mitigate the damage on this one and shed money losing operations..

This will go on forever. Appeal after appeal and so forth like any other legal battle between companies. It's not worth wasting time on. This is HI flying people not mainland flying. Does anyone really care what happens out there on the islands, probably not. Stick it to JO and lets get on to something else worthwile.

Money losing operations....that would be GO! and Air Midwest which will be gone by this time next year so there is not much to dump. JO will take the CRJ's to China and the Beech 1900's are in the process of being sold to Gulfstream and Great Lakes.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: T prop
Posted 2007-11-01 01:45:25 and read 2774 times.

From the Mesa pilot leadership:

"We are shocked and appalled by these developments," said Captain Michael Jayson, chairman of the Mesa Air Group unit of ALPA. "The actions of MAG's senior management have put the future of Mesa Air Group and the livelihoods of their hard-working employees in jeopardy. Although the negative publicity will soon die down, the financial impact of the Hawaiian Airlines decision -- if it is not overturned on appeal -- will likely be felt for years to come. Combine this with the skyrocketing attrition among our pilots and the on-going operational and staffing problems at Mesa Air Group, and you can begin to appreciate why the pilots are so concerned about the future of our company."


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071031/dc06107.html?.v=1

As Mesa continues to operate in Hawaii the damages go forward, how much a day is added if they ultimately lose on appeal?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-11-01 01:57:38 and read 2759 times.

Quoting T prop (Reply 63):
As Mesa continues to operate in Hawaii the damages go forward, how much a day is added if they ultimately lose on appeal?

The judge set an interest rate of about 4% per year. Thats $3,200,000 million more for the first year or about $8,700 more per day.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: T prop
Posted 2007-11-01 02:11:04 and read 2747 times.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 64):
The judge set an interest rate of about 4% per year. Thats $3,200,000 million more for the first year or about $8,700 more per day.

That's just interest, the 80 mil figure came from losses that HA incurred the day go started till this month I think. As go continues to operate that figure grows. Does $150,000 a day + the interest sound right?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-11-01 02:22:15 and read 2736 times.

Quoting T prop (Reply 65):
That's just interest, the 80 mil figure came from losses that HA incurred the day go started till this month I think. As go continues to operate that figure grows. Does $150,000 a day + the interest sound right?

I'm not sure the amount grows. One report I read said that Hawaiian was exploring how to recoup the losses it will continue to sustain while go! continues to be in the market. I suppose one risk of Mesa's appeal is that the next judge will agree with HA and increase the amount due to the months/years that have gone by in the interim.

My guess is that the Mesa BOD is telling JO that go! isn't worth it. They've already 10s of millions of dollars and have made no inroads into the market in revenue or traffic growth. I predict an attempt to settle with Aloha and go!'s pullout within 6 months. Mesa's stock price has dropped from over $10 to $4 since go!. If I was a stockholder I would be pissed.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-01 08:16:14 and read 2678 times.

Mesa must also post an 80 Million dollar bond while the appeals process takes place, this will cost a tidy sum also to purchase a bond from a financial institution.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...ies/2007/10/29/daily32.html?page=2


"Mesa will be required to post an $80 million bond until the case is resolved. "


"In his ruling, Faris ordered Mesa to pay 3.97 percent interest on the $80 million judgment per annum. Mesa must also turn over to Hawaiian (NYSE:HA) any confidential material in its possession related to the case. "

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: HAL
Posted 2007-11-01 09:53:20 and read 2626 times.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines.

Lighten up Francis! I guess I didn't say it quite right in my original post. What I meant was that the cost to the airlines is dictated much more by cycles than distance. Since in a rational world airfares follow cost, then the cycle is the initial driver of airfares. For those that don't follow that train of thought, here's an example;

For each and every departure you have to pay for gate fees, landing fees, gate agents, ground handlers, fuelers, and per/cycle maintenance inspections. Each flight, no matter how short it is, also requires the use of dispatchers, crew scheduling, marketing and executive personnel, adding to the cost. Aircraft lease costs are normally per month, but if you fly shorter legs you fly less hours per day, which means that those lease costs are spread over less flying, so it actually costs more per hour to lease your planes on short flights than on longer ones. Engine lease cost is normally by the hour, but with additional cost per cycle too. Fuel cost per hour is much greater on short flights because a large portion of the fuel used in a flight is burned during takeoff and climb. Really short flights (like interisland Hawaii flights) are flown at lower altitudes with a greater fuel burn/hour than longer high-altitude flights. Crew costs remain about the same per hour, but at most airlines will be a little higher for shorter flights when there is an additional pay per landing. But overall, the crew costs are a very small part of the overall cost of flying a plane.

When you take all this into consideration, you'll see that that first foot off the ground is pretty darned expensive. You simply can't take the distance of a flight and use that as a direct yardstick as to how the flight should be priced. There's a minimum cost to the airline no matter how short the flight is, then beyond that, it is distance and market pressures that add to that cost. Fares often have little to do with the cost though, as evidenced by Go!'s frequent use of $9, $19, and $29 fares, when outside analysis has shown that it costs Mesa nearly $70 to fly each seat on each flight.

Marketing and Advertising are wonderful things, but don't let yourself forget how to use your brain to discriminate between promotion, hype, and misdirection. Jonathan Ornstein has repeatedly said that Hawaiian is merely trying to stop Go! from providing the people of Hawaii affordable interisland transportation. However Mesa has lost millions of dollars in starting up the Go! operation. Do you honestly think Mesa would continue to fly people around Hawaii for $19 forever when they're losing so much money every day? Are they doing it because they love the people of Hawaii so much? I'd say probably not. Their goal (and this is what was shown during the recent trial) was to push one of the current airlines out of business so they could raise fares and make money that way. Mesa is not a charity, they're a business. And as a business they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to earn a profit. The only way they can do that on such short interisland flights is to sell the seats at or above cost, which has been shown to be several times what they are offering the seats at right now.

Short flights do not equal low cost, and should not equal low fares either.

And for your information, I have been flying for 23 years, flown for Hawaiian for over 8 years, have 7000+ hours flight time, and grew up in an aviation family, so I've been around airlines my whole life. If you'd like to have a rational discussion about any part of the industry I'd be happy to oblige.

HAL

[Edited 2007-11-01 10:11:10]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-01 10:00:19 and read 2607 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 68):
Short flights does not equal low cost, and should not equal low fares either.

One of the best posts I have seen on Anet this year and very spot on.

a CRJ is just not viable on these short segments.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
Mesa does not set any fares or do anything except be a "mass transit company" for US Airways.

The consumer doesn't care who is operating the flight. The point is for a ticket between these cities that is what you will pay. YV gets very little for that flight connecting or P2P aside. US doesn't really try to compete on TUS-PHX on price since there are several van services running up and down I-10 24 hours a day practically, an option not available on the islands.


With the Super Ferry on hiatus and no other easy way to get between islands,HA and AQ charge very decents fares with or without Go!

[Edited 2007-11-01 10:05:29]

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Hawaiian717
Posted 2007-11-01 21:28:39 and read 2438 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 62):
Does anyone really care what happens out there on the islands, probably not.

How about the 1.2 million residents of the state of Hawaii? What about the frequent visitors to the islands? What about the shareholders of Hawaiian Holdings and Mesa Air Group? What about the shareholders of UAL Corporation, as part owners of Aloha?

I'd say lots of people care what happens out there.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Hiloboy1
Posted 2007-11-01 23:19:08 and read 2402 times.

HAL, you said it perfectly!!! But lets stoke the fire LOL!!!

How ironic that HAL has posted record profits this last quarter, yet state in court that they need the 80mil to make up for their losses.

I'm not "pro" any airline, as a matter of fact the best flights to Hawaii are on Hawaiian (the only airline we fly to the mainland), second would be Continential, but I've been an Air Traffic Controller here since 1986 and can tell you that everything that HA and AQ are accusing Go! of doing lest the "confidential information " those two did the same to:

1. Mid Pacific
2. Discovery but used the "international" ownership card to put them out
3. Mahalo

If you think that HA and AQ didn't have inside information as to how much and for how long they could drop their fares until the afor mentioned airlines went out to sea; you're really not in touch with how vicious the airline game is.

This is a "smoke and mirror" on HA and AQ's part; they couldn't break Go! because of their financial standing, so they sued because of " confidential information".

BTW if you read the newspaper it clearly stated the honorable judge said "I have to assume that the deleted files were of confidential information nature" so nothing was proved.

Do I think JO did this because he didn't get his way, HECK YES look at his track record.

But say what you will, Go! has made it affordable to fly to the other islands to see family and friends (for now). If they do raise the fares a little then ok, its still cheaper then it was before. HA already stated "under oath" that the fares would go back to the old fares if Go! leaves. So again "the pot calling the kettle black"!!!


This is a tax write off for Mesa and if you think its not; ask yourself, what fool would use CRJ -200 on short hops. But the share holders won't stand for much more of this.

If you're not from the Islands don't compare our fares to the mainlands "short hop fares" you forget, if the fare is to high in the mainland at least you can drive to the city, do that on water.

I say this sends a bad message:

All the "Mom and Pop" shops should band together and file suit against all the Kmarts, Sears, Walmarts, Home Depots etc. because of all the monies they've lost because of the compitition and inside information.

JO knows he only has to play the "wait and see" court game and he'll still win; and someone else may be going out to sea.


Keep it real HAL and tell John Tzak "nahale says hello"

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-02 08:16:22 and read 2324 times.

Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 71):
if the fare is to high in the mainland at least you can drive to the city, do that on water.

if you live on an island you kind of have to realize you have limited options  Smile


Would you agree AQ and HA are a vital part of the Hawai'i economy and are more of a public utility than anything else?

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2007-11-02 08:26:55 and read 2321 times.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 72):
Would you agree AQ and HA are a vital part of the Hawai'i economy and are more of a public utility than anything else?

If that is the accepted case, then the State of Hawaii, not the operators, should subsidize the fares or regulate the competition. The operators are entitled to a market rate of return.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-02 08:34:45 and read 2310 times.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 73):
The operators are entitled to a market rate of return.

I agree with that too, I am just saying that Hawaii is a set of islands, and air travel is the primary way to get around, if every one goes bankrupt and quits operating then the traveling public and economy of the state suffer.

Topic: RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2007-11-02 14:51:23 and read 2229 times.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
AQ and HA may have "won" now but unfortunatly I think one of them will lose in the long run then Mesa can step in and take the place of the one who had closed up shop, raise prices, and gouge the people of Hawaii with high fares like HA and AQ are doing now.



Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
I say everyone should boycott GO! entirely.

Entirely good idea, as I tend to boycott MOST Mesa ops, aside from the SLC-LAS night flight.

BT^W, isn't Gordon Bethune on the BOD of Aloha? I wonder what his opinion is?


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