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Topic: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-09 14:43:03 and read 69977 times.

Breaking news from UIO, an IB A340-600 skids off the RWY, it seems that it has damaged the ILS suggesting that the takeoff was one off RWY17. Registration is confirmed EC-JOH according to ACARS. Flight was IB6463 UIO-GYE. News was taken from this Ecuatorian newspaper, Ecuadorinmediato.com:

http://www.ecuadorinmediato.com/noticias/64508

Quoting Ecuadorinmediatio.com:
Según últimos reportes, un avión de Iberia sufrió un incidente al salir de la pista del aeropuerto, sin estrellamiento. Al momento se evacuan a los pasajeros por parte de los organismos de socorro: Defensa Civil, personal de paramédicos de Quiport, Cruz Roja y Bomberos.


Según explicó Pilar Sánchez del Cuerpo de Bomberos de Quito, el percance no tuvo heridos graves, y tampoco se produjo estrellamiento.

Se cree que el mal despegue se habría producido por fallas en dos llantas.

Translation:

According to the latest reports, an Iberia plane suffered an incident while skidding off the runway at Quito airport, not a crash. In this moment they are evacuating the passengers with the help of the rescue teams, Quiport paramedics, Red Cross and the Firefighters.

According to Pilar Sanchez from the Quito Firefighting team, the incident had no serious injuries on the people onboard and it was not a crash.

It is believed that the bad takeoff was produced by a failure in two wheels.

Hope this is true and no one is hurt.

Regards,
Tomas.

[Edited 2007-11-09 14:51:53]

Topic: RE: IB A340-300 Skidds Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2007-11-09 14:45:53 and read 70038 times.

Is there a link to CNN or FoxNews, both are usually pretty quick to jump on these types of incidents. Thank God not any serious injuries. Any airplane damage?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A340Spotter
Posted 2007-11-09 15:27:05 and read 69762 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Any airplane damage?

First off, confirmed now as the airport is estimated closed through at least 0300z. Per an eyewitness, one engine resting on the ground and cracks seen near the wing. So yes, some airplane damage, though being dark at the moment, may be a while before anything is seen on news sites.

JSD

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-09 15:34:58 and read 69716 times.

Seem like it happened 17:15 local time, Quito airport seem to be temporary closed,
http://www.lahora.com.ec/frontEnd/main.php?idSeccion=641033
About 1 hour and 20 minutes ago.

[Edited 2007-11-09 15:40:03]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-09 15:48:27 and read 69591 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 2):
First off, confirmed now as the airport is estimated closed through at least 0300z. Per an eyewitness, one engine resting on the ground and cracks seen near the wing. So yes, some airplane damage, though being dark at the moment, may be a while before anything is seen on news sites.

Just in from the same newspaper:

Quoting Ecuadorinmediato.com:
Según pudo confirmar ecuadorinmediato.com, la nave prácticamente está intacta, con excepción del tren de aterrizaje que está prácticamente enterrada, mientras que una parte de la punta de la nariz del avión se halla fuera de la pista.

Translation: Ecuadorinmediato confirmed that the airple is pratically intact with the exception of the main gear which is is practically burried, while one part of the airplane's nose is outside of the RWY.

Will be waiting for more info... UIO closed until further notice, I wonder where Airportmanager is now...

Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BAKJet
Posted 2007-11-09 15:48:58 and read 69580 times.

Good that nobody got hurt. This would be considered a accident/incindent not a crash, right.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Haan
Posted 2007-11-09 15:54:43 and read 69564 times.

Bad week for the A340-600 as a SAA A346 went oof the runway last week at Cape Town.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Breiz
Posted 2007-11-09 16:02:05 and read 69488 times.

Quoting Haan (Reply 6):
Bad week for the A340-600 as a SAA A346 went oof the runway last week at Cape Town.

And Iberia's A340-600 EC-JFX made a hard landing at Quito on Aug 31, 2007, exploding some tires.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-09 16:03:57 and read 69495 times.

333 passenger onboard according to http://www.lahora.com.ec/frontEnd/main.php?idSeccion=641067

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: 797
Posted 2007-11-09 17:01:31 and read 69203 times.

According to this thread from A.netter Airportmanager, the aircraft is severely damaged.

Thank God no one was hurt, but seems like the jet was hit badly and it will take several hours until its completely removed and the airport.

Cheers

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PU752
Posted 2007-11-09 17:13:20 and read 69086 times.

Thanks god nothing happened, although UIO is an accident waiting to happen.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A340Spotter
Posted 2007-11-09 17:15:27 and read 69068 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Thread starter):
Flight was IB6463 UIO-GYE.

Per the other thread which I don't see anywhere (deleted due to duplication?), it was the inbound MAD-UIO IB6463 which is what made a bit more sense given the time of the incident. Numerous flights are delayed or have diverted (Southern Air has a B747F sitting in MIA for instance).

JSD

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: United787
Posted 2007-11-09 19:05:15 and read 67716 times.

Quoting 797 (Reply 9):
According to this thread from A.netter Airportmanager, the aircraft is severely damaged.

Could this be the second A340 to be written off?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-09 19:08:03 and read 67716 times.

Here is a better link, with picture:

http://www.eluniverso.com/

(It is now on front page)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-09 19:08:54 and read 67645 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 11):
it was the inbound MAD-UIO IB6463 which is what made a bit more sense given the time of the incident.

Yes, you are right, the first information indicated that it was an aborted takeoff, as well I took is as a fact since Flightstats.com had the MAD-UIO flight as landed, 15 minutes ago, when I checked the flight. But if you read below, it was actually landing.

Update: Now the same newspaper is confirming that the aircraft is badly damaged:

Quoting Ecuadorinmediato:
Según testigos oculares consultados por Ecuadorinmediato.com, una de las turbinas del ala izquierda de la aeronave se incendió tras impactar con el terreno fangoso del áerea de seguridad de la cabecera del aeropuerto, sin embargo, la rápida acción del Cuerpo de Bomberos permitió sofocar en menos de quince segundos el percance.

Translation:

According to witnesses consulted by Ecuadorinmediato, one of the left turbines caught fire while impacting the safety zone of the RWY threshold, the quick action of the Firefighting Team controlled the fire in less than 15 seconds.

It also points that is aircraft was landing:

Quoting Ecuadorinmediato:
Se cree que el forzoso arribo se habría producido por fallas en el tren de aterrizaje, debido a la explosión de dos de sus llantas. Cabe señalar, además, que las condiciones metereológicas en Quito eran dificultosas para el transporte aéreo; en el momento del suceso llovía pertinazmente y se presentaban altos niveles de nubosidad.

Translation:

It is believed that the hard landing was caused by problems in the landing gear due to the explosion of two of its tires. It is also important to point out that at the time of the incident, the weather conditions were difficult for the airplanes and it was raining constantly with high levels of clouds at the time.

A special METAR of 2209z (17:09 local time, incident at around 17:15) was:

SEQU 092209Z 17004KT 3000S 4000N RA VCFG FEW005 BKN023 OVC100 12/11 Q1024 BECMG AT2230 4000

Reduced visibility, constant rain, fog in the vicinity and few clouds at 500ft indicate it was not the best weather.

It also suggests that this plane crossed over the highway and is probably resting over it:

Quoting Ecuadorinmediato:
El avión, un Airbus 340-600, se deslizó por la pista aérea, hacia la Avenida del Maestro y Gualaquiza (al norte de la capital), en el mismo sitio en que hace varios años un avión de Cubana de Aviación sufrió un percance parecido.

Translation:

The airplane, an Airbus A340-600, skidded off the runway, towards the "Avenida (Avenue) del Maestro" and Gualaquiza, the same site where a Cubana airplane some years ago had a similar incident.

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LAXspotter
Posted 2007-11-09 19:22:51 and read 67470 times.

Are there any safety issues with the runway in Quito? It seems like a difficult approach. Good news, that no one was hurt. What kind of damage is there to the aircraft if any?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-09 19:27:18 and read 67451 times.

"Major damage" to the airframe, according to Quito's airport director.

I saw a picture of the plane. It appears outside the runway, resting on its left wing. R2 slide deployed, so I assume an emergency evac took place. Major scare for the passengers, if nothing.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BY188B
Posted 2007-11-09 19:31:18 and read 67514 times.

Very good pictures on this link;

http://www.elperiodico.cat/info/gale...leria.asp?idioma=CAS&idgaleria=969

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PyroGX41487
Posted 2007-11-09 19:35:28 and read 67321 times.

Ouch. From those pictures, it looks like there may be some damage to the wing, from pylons being ripped off and that those engines will definitely need to be replaced. I'd expect damage to the left main gear as well. As long as there isn't any major hull/wing damage, it looks fixable from where I'm sitting.

Hasn't the IB A346s had a lot of issues with their brakes in the last three some-odd years?

Pyro

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A340Spotter
Posted 2007-11-09 19:36:25 and read 67302 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Could this be the second A340 to be written off?

Would be the 5th A340 to be written off, but second one due to a landing incident.

Two Air Lanka A340s destroyed by attacks
One Air France at CDG during a "dispute" (F-GNIA)
One Air France at YYZ, in a landing incident in 2006

JSD

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Da man
Posted 2007-11-09 19:40:37 and read 67245 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 19):
Would be the 5th A340 to be written off, but second one due to a landing incident.

But it would be the first A340NG (e.g. A340-500 and/or A340-600).

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-09 19:50:13 and read 67133 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Could this be the second A340 to be written off?

The aircraft is still relatively new, so it's not necessarily a write-off. Judging from the pictures, maybe a new landing gear, new engine(s) and a new number 2 engine pylon (maybe also a new engine pylon for the number 1), unless something pierced through the fuselage. That's just my casual observation.

I'm guessing that the aircraft will likely be repaired.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BE77
Posted 2007-11-09 19:53:11 and read 67109 times.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 15):
Are there any safety issues with the runway in Quito? It seems like a difficult approach. Good news, that no one was hurt. What kind of damage is there to the aircraft if any?

At something like 9200 ASL, pretty much any operations have to be considered difficult - thinking about it. breathing would be difficult for probably 75% of people not from there! Add any sort of weather (rainy, hot, or anything else), and if you can run off the end of any runway, that'll be one.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-09 20:00:49 and read 67006 times.

Good no one was hurt.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):

Interesting, but shall we assume that all of the work would be done in Quito?, it would be somewhat expensive compared to being done in MAD or any other station that usually would do heavy MX on a A346.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Phxpilot
Posted 2007-11-09 20:17:02 and read 66859 times.

Is anybody else wondering why in some of the pictures, especially the one shot from the tail angle, the electrical system is still powered? The white tail nav light as well as the left logo lights are both illuminated. Without exception, the checklists for every airliner I have ever flown require electrical power to be shut off in this sort of situation.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Etops1
Posted 2007-11-09 20:18:21 and read 66828 times.

this could have turned out to be very ugly . those people were very lucky . good thing there was no embankment or ditch at the end of that runway.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-09 20:45:58 and read 70047 times.

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 25):
this could have turned out to be very ugly . those people were very lucky . good thing there was no embankment or ditch at the end of that runway.

Well, there was; they were just lucky enough to stop well before it.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-09 21:02:46 and read 69963 times.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 23):
Interesting, but shall we assume that all of the work would be done in Quito?, it would be somewhat expensive compared to being done in MAD or any other station that usually would do heavy MX on a A346.

Yes, but you got to remember that when the KZ 767 that was on lease to Skyservice landed hard and got those nasty fuselage wrinkles in PUJ, people from Boeing came down there and repaired the aircraft on site.

But you do got a point: damage wise, it may not seem like a writeoff, but if the repairs itself cost more than the aircraft is worth at this point, then it will be more economical to scrap the aircraft and sell the still functional parts as spares. Still, I doubt it will be written off.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PU752
Posted 2007-11-09 21:04:23 and read 69935 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 14):
SEQU 092209Z 17004KT 3000S 4000N RA VCFG FEW005 BKN023 OVC100 12/11 Q1024 BECMG AT2230 4000

UIO always use rwy 35 for landings and takeoffs, the APP for rwy 17 is extremely challenging for both landings(specially) and deps, so I doubt they were using rwy 17 since winds were calm (less than 5kts its known as calm winds), my guess is they were coming way too high or too fast or both.

P.S: UIO runway is 10.300ft at 9200AG thats why they are unable to fly UIO-MAD.........just as a reference Montevideo Carrasco Int'l (SUMU) has a 10.500rwy at 50ft.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-09 21:07:55 and read 70003 times.

Airportmanager, a friend of mine, told me the aircraft hase several fuselage and wing cracks and that engines 1, 2, and 3 are useless, only 4 is or could be good. Engine two and its pylon are severed as we cans ee from the photos, the whole landing gear is done for and the under part of the fuselage might have suffered some damage too after it went off the RWY.

Quito is closed until further notice till Monday and will probably extend some more time due to the size and location of this massive plane.

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2007-11-09 21:26:08 and read 69712 times.

Quito actual runway is much to short considering the altitude of the city ( 2800 meters )
The new airport will have a 4200 meter runway.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: OHLHD
Posted 2007-11-09 21:27:03 and read 69751 times.

Quoting BY188B (Reply 17):
Very good pictures on this link;

http://www.elperiodico.cat/info/gale...a=969

From the front shot picture I would say that there was be damage to both engines since they are both looking not straight forward so I guess there must a more damage. If both engines look that bad I think there could be damage to the wing as well.

At the moment I believe it is way to early to speculate whether it is write-off or not.  Smile

Good that nobody was hurt!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airbus767
Posted 2007-11-09 21:38:10 and read 69567 times.

wow thank God everyone's ok - I looked at UIO on Google Earth and the end of the runway (it landed on 17, right?) is 177 yards away from from a major roadway/intersection; I'm assuming it's the aforementioned Avenida del Maestro. This was a close one.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-09 22:14:24 and read 69198 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 29):
Quito is closed until further notice till Monday and will probably extend some more time due to the size and location of this massive plane.

Where will all the traffic be diverted? I doubt GYE could take all of it, or am I wrong?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
Quito actual runway is much to short considering the altitude of the city ( 2800 meters )
The new airport will have a 4200 meter runway.

Even with a 4200 metre runway, a limiting factor will be max tyre speed. Could even the best highspeed tyre hold a full length takeoff from 9200 ft altitude? If not, then all the new runway will do is reduce restrictions a bit more, but that's it.

Think of LPB as well. Even though it was a 13000+ ft runway, due to its altitude of 13325 ft, it's still highly tyre speed restricted, which translates into heavy weight restrictions.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2007-11-09 22:45:08 and read 69026 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 19):
One Air France at YYZ, in a landing incident in 2006

Forgive me, but by what stretch of the imagination was that a "landing incident?" I don't think an aircraft has to fly head first into the everglades before it can be qualified as a crash.

To me a landing incident is a blown out tire or an engine failure and the A/C gets back to the gate/air bridge under it's own power.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airplane
Posted 2007-11-09 22:47:34 and read 69002 times.

TV shows one of the main gears collapsed when if skid off the runway. Especulations are that the airport may be closed for several days.

Many thins have happend lately in UIO.

The media reports 5 injured out of 333 passengers. Including one flight attendant.

JP

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Qantas744ER
Posted 2007-11-09 23:10:44 and read 68725 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 27):
But you do got a point: damage wise, it may not seem like a writeoff, but if the repairs itself cost more than the aircraft is worth at this point, then it will be more economical to scrap the aircraft and sell the still functional parts as spares. Still, I doubt it will be written off.

QF thinks different about that  Silly

1999 BKK overrun  Wink

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-09 23:25:56 and read 68940 times.

Ok i just got back from the airport. I was there in the flight school during this happened. It was raining and I heard a loud BOOM but nothing that caught my atention. hen my dad called me and well, guess what he told me that an airplane had skidd off the RWY! I called my cotnacts and no one had info! AA pilot called me and they said a A346 of Iberia EC-JOH skid off during landing. A girl was linading as I was told, last comunications heard were a girl asking winds.

I grabbed my car and took a very fast route with my friends and got there, the plane was in the end of the RWY in the grass area tilted in the slope, with engines in the ground broken off, wing kind of broken, emergency ramps oipened, and it was amazing to see this plane like this. I grabbed some amazing pics!

I was told that the plane will be removed in 48 hours!! It is impossible to remove it as a landing gear tore off, the center one i beleive and all the rest exploded, the front gear colpased into the ground. Engines 1 2 and 3 are torn off into the ground still on the wing but torn off. Ill psot pics alter as I took many! Weather did not cooeprate!

Sorry that im a bit hectic!!

Ahh also, the plane went over the protected area over two tunnels! the plane made a hole over the tunnel!! And ripped out a landing gear!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-09 23:45:40 and read 68622 times.

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 5):
Good that nobody got hurt. This would be considered a accident/incindent not a crash, right.

to me this is more than a incident other than no one was hurt, this is terrible, I still can tbelieve Ive seen an aircraft like this! Just centimieters before being into houses and cars!

Quoting Breiz (Reply 7):

And Iberia's A340-600 EC-JFX made a hard landing at Quito on Aug 31, 2007, exploding some tires.

This is not the same airplane. This is EC-JOH, but still, Iberias second incident in less than 2 months! Amazing!!

Quoting 797 (Reply 9):
According to this thread from A.netter Airportmanager, the aircraft is severely damaged.

Thank God no one was hurt, but seems like the jet was hit badly and it will take several hours until its completely removed and the airport.

Cheers

I second my last post which was errased. The plane is useless, I mean, I have never seen a plane with such damage!!! The wings and engines are broken off, after some pictures taken from someone from the inside (Which ill try to post later) the inner part of the fuse whioch grabs the wings are cracked up till the wing which means a total tosrsion of the fudesalgge!!!

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 14):
Yes, you are right, the first information indicated that it was an aborted takeoff

LANDING, not a takeoff.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
"Major damage" to the airframe, according to Quito's airport director.

YEP! That is true, the airframe is bent! You could see it at plain sight from the streeets, the plane is bent and the engiens are ripped off. This is a terrible sight. Ill try to take day pic tomorrow at plain sun light.

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 18):
Ouch. From those pictures, it looks like there may be some damage to the wing, from pylons being ripped off and that those engines will definitely need to be replaced. I'd expect damage to the left main gear as well. As long as there isn't any major hull/wing damage, it looks fixable from where I'm sitting.

Hasn't the IB A346s had a lot of issues with their brakes in the last three some-odd years?

Pyro

I have pics showing rupture of the pylons and the wings hook up with the engines!! Ive uploaded a few pics, but hopefully will be accepted tomorrow, or so. TERRIBLE stress on the wing and the fuse! Engines are broken off. I believe this is a total loss of the a/c.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
The aircraft is still relatively new, so it's not necessarily a write-off. Judging from the pictures, maybe a new landing gear, new engine(s) and a new number 2 engine pylon (maybe also a new engine pylon for the number 1), unless something pierced through the fuselage. That's just my casual observation.

As i said before there are pics from a friend of mine from the guy who was right near the plane. Closeups of the plane near the wing with broken parts. Ill ask for his pics tomorrow. Fusse has cracks and all near the wing attatch area. Its horrible. Also broken off landing gears and the fuse crashed against some ILS equiptment menaning it has sever damage.

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 25):
this could have turned out to be very ugly . those people were very lucky . good thing there was no embankment or ditch at the end of that runway.

Well, your very right. This is very lucky. Just meters off the citch near the RRWY meaning this oculd of ended in a tragedy!!! I mean, if there wouldnt of been the tunnel area built after Cubana accident, this would of been a tragedy with lots of deaths!!! Thank god that no one was hurt!

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 29):
Quito is closed until further notice till Monday and will probably extend some more time due to the size and location of this massive plane.



Quoting Airplane (Reply 35):
TV shows one of the main gears collapsed when if skid off the runway. Especulations are that the airport may be closed for several days.

True. Thay say airport will be clsoed for more than 24 hours and lots of work. There is no way a truck can pull out this airplane out of this ditch. I tried to manage a helicopter ride to getrt an aerial shot but the denied the possibility because airport security is stopping the helicopters from overflying. Never the less, this airplane is stranded in this position, and the plane in my opinion, wont be moved until its broken up!!! Certainly amazing!

ill keep you posted according to what I see

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Czbbflier
Posted 2007-11-09 23:52:11 and read 68459 times.

Thanks Tomascubero & Airportmanager for the reports. Sorry the news is bad.

A good representation of a challenged A340 landing at Quito is on flightlevel350.com.

You'll see towards the end of the roll-out, the aircraft skids in a pool of water on the runway... add in a couple of blown tires... There are a couple of other vids that show a/c overshooting the base leg turn for 35.

The photos look nasty... with the #1 engine snapped off like that it reminds me of a broken limb. Is there even room at Quito to do the major surgery on an A346 and then would there be enough confidence in the aircraft to test-fly it out over thousands of people in the city????

Good to know everybody got out OK.

Keep us posted, Thomascubero and Airportmanager- you're our eyes....

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RobK
Posted 2007-11-10 00:19:40 and read 67995 times.

Anymore pics ???

R

Ooops, sorry Manager, your post wasn't there when I posted that. Cool pics!

[Edited 2007-11-10 00:21:37]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Flymad
Posted 2007-11-10 00:22:21 and read 68065 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 37):
A girl was linading as I was told, last comunications heard were a girl asking winds.

What is it about A346's and female pilots. the SA incident at CPT last week was also a female pilot? duck 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ZuluTime
Posted 2007-11-10 00:26:43 and read 67831 times.

Why were so few emergency exits opened? I can understand that the angle of the forward chutes may have made it difficult but am surprised that it looks like only one exit on each side was used for the evacuation with 333 passengers aboard.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iwok
Posted 2007-11-10 01:05:30 and read 67320 times.

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 25):
this could have turned out to be very ugly . those people were very lucky . good thing there was no embankment or ditch at the end of that runway.

It sure seems like the wet ground, almost muddy, is an important factor here. If the ground were hard packed, its likely that the plane would have gone into the ditch. Thank God everyone is OK.

Quoting Airplane (Reply 35):
TV shows one of the main gears collapsed when if skid off the runway. Especulations are that the airport may be closed for several days.

Its sure going to be a bugger moving such a large machine with damaged landing gear out of its muddy hole.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 37):
I grabbed some amazing pics!



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 39):
Thanks Tomascubero & Airportmanager for the reports

Excellent work. Its great to know that we have "agents" all over the world  Smile

Perhaps this give some skinny on the recent announcement about new heavies for Iberia  scratchchin 

iwok

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Loalq
Posted 2007-11-10 01:33:39 and read 66989 times.

Ooops!
Somebody just lost his job!

Great pics AirportManager, thanks a lot!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-10 01:39:54 and read 66838 times.

Airportmanager, great pics. It's a shame A.net takes so long to accept them.

I find it strange that there is still no info. on the incident from the IBERIA website. Maybe they are waiting for something official. Go figure.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-10 01:49:26 and read 66592 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 37):
last comunications heard were a girl asking winds.

Airportmanager, I have to join the praise for your ever good reporting and photography.

On the question of a female asking for winds, I thought that the pilot managing communications is usually not the one doing the flying. Or how is the cockpit workload normally split, during landing in particular?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-10 01:50:02 and read 66569 times.

What happens to a plane this damaged? Will the need a crane to pull it (literally) out of the mud? Would IB do minimal repairs there in Quito and fly back to MAD for (or other base) for a major re-tooling? Or, as others have suggested, cut it up and ship the pieces back?

Thanks to all who are following this story!

As so many others have said, Thank God no one was hurt!! Things can be replaced....people can't.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-10 02:01:08 and read 66469 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 49):
Would IB do minimal repairs

From what Airportmanger has described in his reports, plus what can be seen on the pictures, I don't believe "minimal repairs" will get that bird back in the air. I think UIO has a huge WO in their hands that they'll probably have to scrap pretty soon to get the airport back on line.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2007-11-10 02:10:45 and read 66085 times.

First of all, Stefano, thank you so much for the news coverage!

Do you have any info about what happens during the time UIO is closed? To me it looks like this might take some time, and they can definitely not resume operations with this hull right at the end of the runway.

Isn't Latacunga (SELT / LTX) usually used in cases like this?

Also, the way I remember UIO from when I worked there, there's not even space to do the repairs, right? The 346 even had trouble parking at the gate during normal operations, it basically blocked the whole apron. How and where would they put this for a month to do the repairs (if possible at all)? At the military area?

There are a couple of FH27 wrecks at the northern end of the runway, maybe they should just dump this frame right next to it.

By the way, when I first heard the news, I thought to myself: Not again!
There've been several similar incidents at UIO, at a varying rate of deadliness.

Soren

[Edited 2007-11-10 02:14:20]

[Edited 2007-11-10 02:17:10]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AutoThrust
Posted 2007-11-10 03:15:24 and read 64960 times.

I'm glad all are safe. But its sad to see such a beatiful and proud plane damaged like this, i really hope its not a total loss.
This other accident proves how safe and outstanding plane the A340 is.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2007-11-10 03:37:53 and read 64205 times.

Reminds me about the Air France A340 accident in Canada some years ago (except that it isn't burning)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: NA
Posted 2007-11-10 04:04:45 and read 63829 times.

From the pictures this is not a total loss. EC-JOH is new, only 1 1/2 years old, and just one wing and undercarriage seems to be seriously affected. There have been aircraft with more severe damage which are still flying (like LH 742F D-ABYU, which at a similar age lost all 4 engines and had the whole belly ripped open, or QF 744 VH-OJH in 1999, and at least two other Jumbos Jets, to name but 747s).

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B747forever
Posted 2007-11-10 04:07:41 and read 63671 times.

Quoting NA (Reply 54):
From the pictures this is not a total loss. EC-JOH is new, only 1 1/2 years old, and just one wing and undercarriage seems to be seriously affected.

But still it will be a really hard work to get this a/c up in the air again.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: NA
Posted 2007-11-10 04:17:34 and read 63549 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 55):
But still it will be a really hard work to get this a/c up in the air again.

Thats for sure. This aircraft most likely won´t be flying again in 2007. Quito isn´t a place someone wants to experience a breakdown.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2007-11-10 04:19:43 and read 64162 times.

Quoting NA (Reply 54):
There have been aircraft with more severe damage which are still flying (like LH 742F D-ABYU

Good example. See how it looked after the aborted take-off and how it looks today:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/d-abyu/photo.shtml


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sandro Mederle

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B747forever
Posted 2007-11-10 04:36:39 and read 63121 times.

Quoting NA (Reply 56):
This aircraft most likely won´t be flying again in 2007

At least it wont fly again in 2007.

Quoting NA (Reply 56):
Quito isnt a place someone wants to experience a breakdown.

True, that will make it longer until the a/c can fly again.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 57):
See how it looked after the aborted take-off and how it looks today:

Amazing, how could they make that 747 fly again??? How long did it take???

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-10 04:43:34 and read 63082 times.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 57):
Good example. See how it looked after the aborted take-off and how it looks today:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/d-...shtml

Is it accurate to compare a cargohauler and a passengerplane? I don´t think so.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2007-11-10 05:01:02 and read 62638 times.

In the photographs it looked like people were sliding down the emergency chutes under daylight...and then people were still sliding down them in pitch-dark. How many people were on that thing, anyway?

Chris in NH

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Etops1
Posted 2007-11-10 05:11:15 and read 62445 times.

someone asked why was only one emergency exit used for 333 pax. it looks like the 2R door was used. i ask myself the same question. that's a big plane to just use one exit for 333 pax. atleast they could have used all the doors on the right side. there has to be a reason . maybe iberia has different evacuatuion procedures for this a/c.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-10 05:19:51 and read 62389 times.

The following has been published on Iberia's website. Sorry, it's in Spanish only.

Iberia mantiene su operación con Ecuador

- La compañía volará directamente entre Madrid y Guayaquil para garantizar el servicio a sus clientes.

- Se han alquilado cuatro aviones para transportar a los pasajeros entre Latacunga, el aeropuerto más cercano a Quito, y Guayaquil para mantener el servicio entre ambas capitales.

-Todavía no se conocen las causas por las que un avión de la compañía se salió de la pista en Quito en el momento de su aterrizaje, que obligó a cerrar el aeropuerto de la capital ecuatoriana.

-Los pasajeros y la tripulación del vuelo afectado fueron alojados en distintos hoteles de la capital.

Madrid, 10 de noviembre de 2007
La compañía Iberia informa que, pese a la salida de pista de uno de sus aviones ayer en el aeropuerto de Quito, mantendrá sus vuelos diarios con Ecuador operando sobre el aeropuerto de Guayaquil durante los próximos días.

Para trasladar a los pasajeros entre Quito y Guayaquil, Iberia ha alquilado cuatro aviones, que está previsto salgan de la base aérea de Lacatunga hoy sábado a las 14:00, 18:00 y 22:00, en este último caso con dos vuelos. Siempre horas locales de Ecuador.

En relación con el incidente ocurrido ayer, el avión que operaba el vuelo IB6463 Madrid-Quito, se salió de la pista en el momento del aterrizaje, sin causar heridos entre los pasajeros y la tripulación, aunque en principio cinco personas recibieron asistencia por contusiones o malestar general, aparentemente sin mayores consecuencias.

En el avión, un Airbus A340-600, viajaban 335 pasajeros y 14 tripulantes (3 pilotos, un sobrecargo y 10 tripulantes de cabina de pasajeros) que fueron trasladados a hoteles de la capital para descansar a la espera de poderse desplazar a su domicilio o destino final.

Hasta el momento se desconocen las causas que provocaron la salida de pista, que se investigarán siguiendo los procedimientos establecidos entre operador, fabricante y autoridades aeronáuticas.

El avión, matricula EC-JOH, es un Airbus A-340/600 que lo recibió Iberia del fabricante el 23 de marzo de 2006, y realizó su primer vuelo comercial el día 27 del mismo mes.

Toda la tripulación cuenta con gran experiencia en la compañía. En concreto el comandante lleva 27 años como piloto de Iberia y los dos segundos pilotos 10 y ocho años respectivamente.

Iberia agradece a las autoridades ecuatorianas, a los responsables del aeropuerto, a los equipos de emergencia, a los representantes consulares de España y a todos quienes han prestado su colaboración, la ayuda ofrecida para que este incidente no haya tenido mayores consecuencias. Iberia también quiere agradecer a sus clientes su comprensión y colaboración y les pide disculpas por los trastornos que esta situación les está provocando y comunica que está haciendo todo lo posible para recuperar la normalidad de su operación con Ecuador.



There are several things to highlight from this press release.

1. Until things get back to normal, IB will fly the MAD-GYE-MAD route in order to mantain their services to/from Ecuador.

2. Four flights will depart from Latacunga airbase to Guayaquil. Those will be operated by local companies (hired by Iberia) and will carry the passengers that were supposed to arrive to GYE yesterday onboard the A340-600.

3. The aircraft was carrying 335 passengers, plus 14 crew members.

4. The Captain has flown with IB for 27 years while the two First officers onboard have been working for the airline for 10 and 8 years respectively.

5. Iberia wants to thank the Ecuadorian authorities, the airport management, emergency teams, Spanish embassy representatives and everyone else that have helped, all their support in order to avoid this incident to have worse consequences. Iberia also wants to thank their customers for thier comprehension, collaboration, and apologizes for the disturbance produced by this situation. The airline also announces that they are doing everything that is possible to get things back to normal in Ecuador as soon as they can.

Saludos.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: GatoVolador
Posted 2007-11-10 05:22:02 and read 62163 times.

My message was the same than the previous one. Then, I cancel it.

[Edited 2007-11-10 05:24:06]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Express1
Posted 2007-11-10 05:38:54 and read 61851 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 19):
Would be the 5th A340 to be written off

But the first dash 600 to be written off? or can this aircraft be fixed and flying again?, plus how far away is the runway from where it ended up?

dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: NA
Posted 2007-11-10 06:09:26 and read 61355 times.

Quoting Express1 (Reply 64):
or can this aircraft be fixed and flying again?

See some posts above (one from me). There have been aircraft more severely damaged which still fly.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 59):
Is it accurate to compare a cargohauler and a passengerplane? I don´t think so.

Well, the pilots of a Cargo hauler want to survive their job as any pax jet pilot. And I quoted 3 other similar 747 "incidents", where the aírcraft endured heavier damage than this A346 - and still fly (ok, the JAL plane has been retired due to age since).
Here are three:
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-gita/6.shtml
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/qf1/photo.shtml
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19751216-0

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AV757
Posted 2007-11-10 06:30:46 and read 60758 times.

Thank god everyone is safe and no one was hurt. From the pictures I have seen so far I think this airplane will be a total hull loss due to the internal damage received at the center of the wing box, engine pylons and internal wing spars after the structural loads and stress points where exceeded with the landing gear collapse. If after internal inspection and validation of actual damage to the structure is done, repair costs to the structure of the wing, engines and pylons, landing gear, and labour costs, length of time for repair of the airplane with a possible engine replacement may be prohibitive and it may be just simply cheaper to scrap the airplane.

Getting the airplane out of its present position without inflicting more damage to the structure during the relocation process to the ramp where repairs can possibly be made is quite complicated and difficult due to the soft ground and downhill slope of the terrain at the end of the runway at SEQU.

AV757

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AA767LOVER
Posted 2007-11-10 06:44:23 and read 60510 times.

Is the 346 too big to land at UIO, or is it more of a problem within the aircraft itself (internal mechanisms)?
In any case, I'm glad nobody got hurt.

When one says UIO is an incident waiting to happen, is it because it's a high altitude airport, and not enough runway length?

If this is the case, they could certainly learn some lessons from LPB. LPB has an uniquely long runway at its altitude.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A340Spotter
Posted 2007-11-10 06:45:34 and read 60477 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
Where will all the traffic be diverted? I doubt GYE could take all of it, or am I wrong?



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 62):
1. Until things get back to normal, IB will fly the MAD-GYE-MAD route in order to mantain their services to/from Ecuador



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 62):
2. Four flights will depart from Latacunga airbase to Guayaquil. Those will be operated by local companies (hired by Iberia) and will carry the passengers that were supposed to arrive to GYE yesterday onboard the A340-600.

While I'm not at work to check, GYE was scheduled to be closed for runway work this weekend, starting at 0600z/10Nov and lasting thru the 12th at 1200z. Given UIO's closure, has this work been canceled?

JSD

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-10 06:49:28 and read 60412 times.

AV757, saw an estimate of 40MUS$ just in spares, then add shipping and labor cost, add lease of ramp space.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Atnight
Posted 2007-11-10 06:55:52 and read 60301 times.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 68):
While I'm not at work to check, GYE was scheduled to be closed for runway work this weekend, starting at 0600z/10Nov and lasting thru the 12th at 1200z. Given UIO's closure, has this work been canceled?

JSD

Yes, the repair work at GYE is cancelled until UIO gets back to normal.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 67):
Is the 346 too big to land at UIO, or is it more of a problem within the aircraft itself (internal mechanisms)?
In any case, I'm glad nobody got hurt.

That is not the case, as IB has flown the A346 for a couple of years to UIO and now is regular. I believe the problem was human error in the landing. It probably landed too far down the runway. But that has not been said offially yet. We will have to wait to know what was the exact cause of the accident.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AV757
Posted 2007-11-10 07:27:40 and read 59656 times.

Here are the official NOTAMS (Notices To Airmen) for SEQU and SEGU, The closure of GYV has been cancelled for this weekend and moved to next weekend. It is also now known that when UIO reopens the ILS (Instrument Landing System) will be inoperative since the localizer antenna was damaged by the Iberia A340-600 when it overran the end of runway 35, thus limiting arrivals when weather conditions deteriorate permitting only non precision approaches to higher ceiling and visibility minimums, according to the NOTAM below "SEQU APT 200711066A3V01 A1299/07 07 10NOV0011/07 23NOV2300 EST ILS IQO CAT I RWY 35 UNSERVICEABLE". It is estimated that it will be repaired by Nov 23.


SEQU APT 20071106726V01 A1300/07 07 10NOV0136/07 10NOV2300 EST
AD CLOSED DUE TO AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT.

SEQU APT 200711066A3V01 A1299/07 07 10NOV0011/07 23NOV2300 EST
ILS IQO CAT I RWY 35 UNSERVICEABLE

SEGU APT 2007110665FV01 A1298/07 07 17NOV0600/07 26NOV1200
17 NOV 0600 TIL 19 NOV 1200
24 NOV 0600 TIL 26 NOV 1200
AD CLOSED DUE WORK IN PROGRESS RWY,AUTH OPS HEL


Regards:
AV757

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-10 07:33:45 and read 59909 times.

There are several pictures here showing us closer views of the damage. It looks pretty bad, at least worse than I thought after looking at the pictures we all have seen so far. I hope the damage shown in this pictures is just superficial and the inner structure has not suffered serious damage.

Take a look by yourselves and pay attention at pic#2. It shows that the braking action was pretty hard due to the tremendous abrasion shown by the tires of the left main landing gear which collapsed.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16394278&postcount=515

I really hope they will be able to repair this A340-600 and get it back in service in the near future (not before 2008 though), but I have my doubts about that happening.

Quoting AV757 (Reply 66):
Getting the airplane out of its present position without inflicting more damage to the structure during the relocation process to the ramp where repairs can possibly be made is quite complicated and difficult due to the soft ground and downhill slope of the terrain at the end of the runway at SEQU.

Totally agree with this.

[Edited 2007-11-10 07:53:38]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Etops1
Posted 2007-11-10 07:34:18 and read 59465 times.

why did they use one door to evacuate

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AV757
Posted 2007-11-10 07:41:16 and read 59347 times.

[i]Alessandro From Sweden, joined Sep 2001, 4310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted Sat Nov 10 2007 09:49:28 your local time (38 minutes 19 secs ago) and read 759 times:


AV757, saw an estimate of 40MUS$ just in spares, then add shipping and labor cost, add lease of ramp space.[i/]

You are also forgetting the salvaging costs for all the equipment required to move the airplane from its present position, all the infrastructure to move the tooling and specialized maintenance crews that will have to be brought to UIO, since there are no A340 large scale facilities with the appropriate equipment to handle this type of major repairs.

AV757

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ZBBYLW
Posted 2007-11-10 07:57:02 and read 59003 times.

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 73):
why did they use one door to evacuate

I see a few people asking this question. While I do not know the real reason, I will speculate that because of the nature of the incident (not imminent death-fire) it was chosen to only use one exit so they can concentrate all their staff on the one door. It is easier to control one door then have people exit on all doors. On top of this, they saved money (if they airplane is not w/o) when it comes to rebuilding.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RootsAir
Posted 2007-11-10 08:03:13 and read 58938 times.

IB A340-600s seem to have trouvle with UIO. Wasn't there an accident there a few weeks ago ?

 airplane  wave 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Beagleboys
Posted 2007-11-10 08:18:52 and read 58773 times.

Video from CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/wor...plane.accident.ap?iref=videosearch

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: CM767
Posted 2007-11-10 08:29:31 and read 58222 times.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3589223

This is a link to the previous incident.


Airportmanager, thanks for all the information.


The latest photos show more damage, I do not want to be pessimistic but this looks more and more like a w/o.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AV757
Posted 2007-11-10 08:30:39 and read 58103 times.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 75):
Quoting Etops1 (Reply 73):
why did they use one door to evacuate

I see a few people asking this question. While I do not know the real reason, I will speculate that because of the nature of the incident (not imminent death-fire) it was chosen to only use one exit so they can concentrate all their staff on the one door. It is easier to control one door then have people exit on all doors. On top of this, they saved money (if they airplane is not w/o) when it comes to rebuilding.

All flight crews are taught to evaluate conditions at all of their stations in the event of a passenger evacuation for feasibility and should use their best judgement for utilization or annulment of an emergency exit due to airplane position, damage or fire near an emergency exit, fuel spillage, terrain conditions and safety concerns of passengers during exit due to extended slide position (too steep an angle, slide deflation after deployment and a possibility of not enough clearance from terrain obstacles, debris or wreckage from the airplane itself, or emergency equipment that have arrived and are foaming or fighting fire at the site). Also we do not know how many doors could have been blocked due to fuselage deformation and could not be opened up.

In this case the airplane is listing left and tail high due to partial landing gear collapse, burial of the nose gear and the downhill slope of the terrain after the runway end zone.

Regards:
AV757

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Flying Belgian
Posted 2007-11-10 08:31:47 and read 58102 times.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 75):
I see a few people asking this question. While I do not know the real reason, I will speculate that because of the nature of the incident (not imminent death-fire) it was chosen to only use one exit so they can concentrate all their staff on the one door. It is easier to control one door then have people exit on all doors. On top of this, they saved money (if they airplane is not w/o) when it comes to rebuilding.

Looking at the angle the aircraft has, door 1R was the safest door to evacuate ACKNOLEDGING that absolutely no immediate danger was present (fire, leak, smoke,...).
IB already had an evac that turned out to be quite chaotic with an A346 has many people got injured when they used the escape slide.

Hope that splendid airplane is not written off... but casualties is of course the best of all news.

FB.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Philipkk
Posted 2007-11-10 08:40:51 and read 58061 times.

Very ironic. Just the other day I was watching a video of an Iberia A340 landing at UIO with a tailwind. The videographer was critical of its approach and you can see why. The aircraft is pitched down till a few feet from touchdown.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Airbus_A340-300-Airline_Iberia_Aviation_Video-9163.html

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: JoeCattoli
Posted 2007-11-10 08:55:19 and read 57553 times.

I always wanted to ask.... Is the insurance gonna pay for the loss or is part of it/all of it a financial loss for Iberia?

Hope she will fly again.. the fuselage looks quite ok from the photos... and seeing what they did with D-ABYU... I think there's hope
Thanks

Ciao
Joe

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: CM767
Posted 2007-11-10 08:58:17 and read 57443 times.

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 73):
why did they use one door to evacuate

At least two doors were used one in the R and other on the L, both toward the middle of aircraft, and as mentioned before, probably used because of the angle the aircraft ended.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 09:13:33 and read 57192 times.

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 43):
Why were so few emergency exits opened? I can understand that the angle of the forward chutes may have made it difficult but am surprised that it looks like only one exit on each side was used for the evacuation with 333 passengers aboard.

I believe that as others said they decided to go to the safe areas, the front left door didnt seem all that safe as there is a big ditch just near the exit. People could of fallen there. My guess also is that it must be horrible. In a plane they say, locate the nearest exit incase of an emergency. OHH MAN, I guess people were hectic during this incident..... trying to go to this emergency exit andflight attendants wouldnt let them exit through there, must of been chaos!

Quoting Loalq (Reply 46):
Great pics AirportManager, thanks a lot!

Thanks to you for your nice words and to all of you for your support and all!  Smile

Quoting Davescj (Reply 49):
What happens to a plane this damaged? Will the need a crane to pull it (literally) out of the mud? Would IB do minimal repairs there in Quito and fly back to MAD for (or other base) for a major re-tooling? Or, as others have suggested, cut it up and ship the pieces back?

Thanks to all who are following this story!

As so many others have said, Thank God no one was hurt!! Things can be replaced....people can't.

I repeat, I doubt this airplane is easily repaired, or as I said, i think its a W/O. I see the 747 that somone mentioned before, had similar damages, but well, what can I say, I personally doubt it. And now, How in the heck are they gonna move the plane! And how the heck will they repair it and where!

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 51):
Do you have any info about what happens during the time UIO is closed? To me it looks like this might take some time, and they can definitely not resume operations with this hull right at the end of the runway.

I havent had the chance to go to UIO now to see the plane, but I believe they are getting pieces out of the way, fixing some of the RWY lights, i dont know. But my guess is engines need to be removed!!! And all thets broken.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 51):
Isn't Latacunga (SELT / LTX) usually used in cases like this?



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 51):
lso, the way I remember UIO from when I worked there, there's not even space to do the repairs, right? The 346 even had trouble parking at the gate during normal operations, it basically blocked the whole apron. How and where would they put this for a month to do the repairs (if possible at all)? At the military area?



Quoting N14AZ (Reply 53):
Reminds me about the Air France A340 accident in Canada some years ago (except that it isn't burning)

This could of been 10 times worse if this new tunnel thing wouldnt of been built. It could of ended in a CUBANA similar accident. Ahh man, thankgod they built that crappy tunnel.

Quoting NA (Reply 54):
From the pictures this is not a total loss. EC-JOH is new, only 1 1/2 years old, and just one wing and undercarriage seems to be seriously affected

Who gives if the plane is 1 year old, or 5 years old. The fact is that it overran and its seriously damaged.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 67):
Is the 346 too big to land at UIO, or is it more of a problem within the aircraft itself (internal mechanisms)?
In any case, I'm glad nobody got hurt.

the problem isnt its too big, this time it was braking action and weather.

I jsut spoke with the captain who landed BEFORE IB, he fly VIP Do328. He sais he was bellow minimums and weather was terrible, he reported BRAKING ACION MEDIUM for a turboprop, not good at all for a jet. After he reported that, the IB landed UNDER minnimums (3KM) vis and overshot!. How in the world do you do that? that pilot is in depp SH**. IB has set new standards in UIO for missed APP, if IB doesnt have RWY in sight in the Outer marker, theyll go to the alternate, in this case, this guy didnt do that, and look what happened.

Second off, reversers are not open!!! Did he not reverse? Did he try to do a smart maneuver? Thats all for now, ill call people from UIO now.

Stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A340Spotter
Posted 2007-11-10 09:19:04 and read 57061 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 84):
After he reported that, the IB landed UNDER minnimums (3KM) vis and overshot!.

Stefano,
Does IB have the ability to shoot an RNP Approach that CO has there at UIO? 3000m, as it was reported in the METAR, would be the mins on the RNP approach, correct?

Thanks for your reports, by the way. Amazing pics and info. Helped us out last night!

JSD

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 09:20:29 and read 57089 times.

Ahh sorry for posting so quickly. I was jsut told, as the IB broke the LOCALIZER and other antenas, SELT the near by airport had to give tehir LOC antenna out to Quito so they can get ILS back operative when UIO is open again. This was done since UIO is going through very bad weather days, they need ILS no matter what when it opens up again. Well, this means Latacugna has no ILS now, so, what about CARGOLUX flying tehre with no ILS etc? Hmm, things wont be good in ecuadorian aviation now.........


I hear AIRBUS people are here already! They say that they want to bring new buggies for the A346 and pull it out rolling to the air base and do what ever they need to do, over there. Anyway. thats all for now

stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-10 09:42:14 and read 56659 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 84):
After he reported that, the IB landed UNDER minnimums (3KM) vis and overshot!. How in the world do you do that? that pilot is in depp SH**. IB has set new standards in UIO for missed APP, if IB doesnt have RWY in sight in the Outer marker, theyll go to the alternate, in this case, this guy didnt do that, and look what happened.

If this is the case, well you are right, the pilots are in some deep trouble. Being a spotter at SJO which tends to have similar or worse weather conditions, our minimums are 800mts visibility, by then when the NOTAM has that VIS, the airport is automatically closed. Since sometimes the special NOTAMs take a while to come out and the airport visibility has already been less than 800mts, I've seen UPS, Continental and American planes land when from La Candela, I couldn't even see the terminal, just to give you an idea of how it was.

Apart from this, I even heard one night two planes coming in to land, one CO missed, did the approach again and landed. Then an AA A300 came, missed twice the approach and on the scanner the CO said to him, just one word, "Autoland" and guess what happened next? He landed.

Pilots tend to be to assured of themselves now a days and go under minimus, do illegal CATIIIc approaches and or trust that they will still stop even if they land half-way down the RWY, here at SJO all that happens but until now, no similar inicdent has occurred for a long time, I just hope it doesn't.

Best Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 10:00:27 and read 56264 times.

As Tomas says, they do it, but its not right. In UIO minimums are 3000 meters! haha and DH o MDA is about 600ft AGL. This is a good safety altitude but they dont respect it.

THIS JUST IN!: UIO is open!! LOCALIZER out of service, (they will bring out the LOC from LATACUNGA to operate here) and well, RWY length is restricted. The restriction is -200 meters so I guess that limits some operations. Also, the plane is still there and as I psoted in an otehr forum, a 70% trustable source, sais the plane will be cut! Airbus personell is here already. They say they find no solution. Im not trusting this source so much but I do think it has some TRUTH in it, as it comes from operations people in UIO. Lets see what I find out!! I wanna go and take more pics.

Stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: 797
Posted 2007-11-10 10:03:57 and read 56194 times.

Woah, last night I went to sleep with the post recently opened and now all I see are this incredible photos.

What a pitty that this beautiful airframe is in such a bad shape. I'd agree with the photographer's comments that it wouldn't be worht repairing the damage. As a matter of fact, removing the airframe from the wreckage place would take long hours and saving its integrity would be something a bit hard, don't you all think?

This would be the first A340 to be scrapped, if the case happens?

Anyhow, good that no one was hurt and that everyone will have a story to tell.

Let's wait for some more news on this.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 40):
Sorry its JP but A.net still doesnt screen my pic

Why don't you send a PM to the screeners telling them about the priority of the photo? You tell them about it and attach the address of the photo in your queue.
screeners@airliners.net

Saludos y Gracias!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Clydenairways
Posted 2007-11-10 10:11:38 and read 56105 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 72):
Take a look by yourselves and pay attention at pic#2. It shows that the braking action was pretty hard due to the tremendous abrasion shown by the tires of the left main landing gear which collapsed.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...t=515

I'd say that this is repairable, it will take a while but i don't think it's a W/O. Apart from the Engine pylons and undercarriage most of the damage that looks bad in these photo's is just fairings.
There was been numerous accidents in the past that looked worse than this and the aircraft are flying again.

I'd say they were very lucky though, overruns do happen all around the world, in some airports minimal damage is caused. But in some due to the location of the airport. and surrounding terrain etc it can lead to disaster. TAM A320 at CGH for example.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-10 10:22:11 and read 55826 times.

797, 1st A346 that are scrapped, the Toronto one was also scrapped among a few others.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RichM
Posted 2007-11-10 10:41:21 and read 55398 times.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 92):
797, 1st A346 that are scrapped, the Toronto one was also scrapped among a few others.

I thought that was an A343?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Ahlfors
Posted 2007-11-10 10:44:25 and read 55361 times.

UIO is now operational...so far I've seen two takeoffs on runway 35. First one was a 727 - didn't get a good view of the second one.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 10:49:19 and read 55326 times.

Ok this suxs.... I look at the qeue and I find no pic of mine in the qeue! Also, I look at the web and I see no uploaded and none rejected.... this is weird.

Stefano÷

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-10 11:00:06 and read 55021 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 95):
Ok this suxs.... I look at the qeue and I find no pic of mine in the qeue! Also, I look at the web and I see no uploaded and none rejected.... this is weird.

I may risk the wrath of moderators for this, but have you tried Jetphotos.net? They have a special "hot photo" button, which you can select for photos like this.

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 94):
UIO is now operational...so far I've seen two takeoffs on runway 35. First one was a 727 - didn't get a good view of the second one.

That's odd; is there not a danger that, if another aircraft had an incident, it could plough into the back of the IB aircraft?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-10 11:05:08 and read 54930 times.

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 94):
UIO is now operational...so far I've seen two takeoffs on runway 35. First one was a 727 - didn't get a good view of the second one.

So, just to clarify, as I understand it, the Iberia landed on 17, correct? And is now somewhere beyond the localiser aerial, but still in the cleared and graded area...?

Soooo, does that mean the airfield is operational, but only for departures from 35, and not for any arrivals? I understand that 35 is open and serviceable, but with 200M shaved off the TORA.

If the crashed aircraft is still in situ, then how can they approve approaches for 35 over the Iberia A346, and who in their right mind would approve landings on 17 given the airfield location, characteristics, shortened LDA and the fact there's a whopping big airbus in the overshoot?

Am I missing something or being thick?

I have a suspicion that any departures at the moment are carriers repositioning their aircraft to try and retrieve some sort of schedule elsewhere, and that there will be no arrivals until the Iberia is moved.

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-10 11:16:15 and read 54692 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 89):
Also, the plane is still there and as I psoted in an otehr forum, a 70% trustable source, sais the plane will be cut!

If that's true, then either they can't get the plane out of there, or the damage is much worse.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 11:18:07 and read 54793 times.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 96):
I may risk the wrath of moderators for this, but have you tried Jetphotos.net? They have a special "hot photo" button, which you can select for photos like this.

Umm, 3 pics are already in JP and are psoted here in the forums hehehe

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 97):
So, just to clarify, as I understand it, the Iberia landed on 17, correct? And is now somewhere beyond the localiser aerial, but still in the cleared and graded area...?

No no no no. LANDED on 35 skid off at the end of 35 therefore meaning at the threshold if you can call it so of 17. Planes are landing and taking off on 35 right now with restriction. No aproaches are being done OVER the plane, because it is in the oposite header.

I still cant find my pics in the qeue., JEEEZ

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2007-11-10 11:23:28 and read 54582 times.

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 24):
good thing there was no embankment or ditch at the end of that runway.



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 37):
Ahh also, the plane went over the protected area over two tunnels!



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 38):
if there wouldnt of been the tunnel area built after Cubana accident,

Overrun areas work!

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 97):

So, just to clarify, as I understand it, the Iberia landed on 17, correct?

No, 35

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RJAF
Posted 2007-11-10 11:29:09 and read 54486 times.

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 82):
I always wanted to ask.... Is the insurance gonna pay for the loss or is part of it/all of it a financial loss for Iberia?

Iberia has pretty good insurance coverage through the Lloyd's and international insurance markets. Usually, if the repair / replacement costs exceed 75% of the value of the aircraft, then insurers will consider it a 'constructive' total loss where they pay the agreed value of the aircraft to Iberia and insurers keep the aircraft as salvage.

Trust the above assists

Ciao

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-10 12:13:55 and read 53704 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 99):
No no no no. LANDED on 35 skid off at the end of 35 therefore meaning at the threshold if you can call it so of 17.

That is silly of me, I forgot that the ILS system is always at the end of the RWY where the ILS is active, dumb me! It was also obvious because the tunnels are right at the end of RWY35 and because of the WX conditions.

Let's see what happens on the rest of the weekend.

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2007-11-10 07:49:35 and read 53357 times.

It'd be a pity to see the first WO of an A340NG so soon, I hope they repair it at any reasonable cost.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-10 13:19:16 and read 52994 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 99):
No no no no. LANDED on 35 skid off at the end of 35 therefore meaning at the threshold if you can call it so of 17. Planes are landing and taking off on 35 right now with restriction. No aproaches are being done OVER the plane, because it is in the oposite header.

Well. my argument still works on the other end.

If Iberia landed 35 and went off the end into the 35 localiser and 17's lights, I cannot see how, in any aviation law sense, aircraft are being permitted to operate on 35 now at all. Why?

Well, as I've already said, considering the airfield location, characteristics, shortened LDA, lack of ILS and the fact there's a whopping big airbus in the overshoot, how can you possibly formulate a safety case to allow any kind of operations towards what is a crash site? What happens in an abandoned take off ? What happens if a landing aquaplanes, to give you just two examples? What if there is an inherent problem with the braking action on 35?

If there were operations restricted to departures only off 17, with a reduced TORA, then I could understand, but what you are saying goes against the safety ethic I have always relied on to be in place.

Am I the only one thinking this?

Shamu

[Edited 2007-11-10 13:26:24]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-10 13:21:38 and read 52946 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 102):
That is silly of me, I forgot that the ILS system is always at the end of the RWY where the ILS is active, dumb me! It was also obvious because the tunnels are right at the end of RWY35 and because of the WX conditions.

Wouldn't that be just the localiser antenna? I believe the glideslope antenna is always next or near the TDZ of the ILS runway.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: 797
Posted 2007-11-10 13:24:36 and read 52923 times.

Guys I gave a thought about the whole situation and came up with a question...

Let's say that IB puts this aircraft out of service and decides not to repair it. How will they handle the financial situation? I mean, this is an almost brand-new aircraft which is surely insured. Is the insurance broker going to pay the loss of the airframe or IB will just experience a loss (huge!) in their financial papers?

Also, I believe this aircraft was assigned to a certain amount of routes... how will they handle those having this aircraft out of service?

Thanks in advance guys!

-E

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-10 13:31:25 and read 52785 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 106):
Wouldn't that be just the localiser antenna? I believe the glideslope antenna is always next or near the TDZ of the ILS runway.

Correct. The glideslope antenna is always abeam the TDZ, and the localiser is beyond the stop end of the runway.

Lots of people think they are co-located, but you can imagine the problems if they were.......  Wow!

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Brendows
Posted 2007-11-10 13:32:20 and read 52745 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 106):
Wouldn't that be just the localiser antenna? I believe the glideslope antenna is always next or near the TDZ of the ILS runway.

You are correct.  checkmark 

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 102):

That is silly of me, I forgot that the ILS system is always at the end of the RWY where the ILS is active, dumb me!

Correct in this case for the LLZ, but that's not the case for runways where there is an offset approach  Wink

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Neuroticdave
Posted 2007-11-10 14:17:31 and read 52109 times.

Quito is indeed a hard approach. I have been there tons of times, and the scaritest is coming in to 17. Those planes zoom past the airport, and then pop the tightest and fastest U turn you can imagine. On top of that, because of the hills and mountains, they basically nose dive in. If you see it from outside the airport, it looks out of place. And inside the plane, its a ride of a lifetime. From what I can understand this plane came into RWY 35, which is also a fairly difficult approach. In any case, UIO was an incident waiting to happen. From what I can see in those pictures, the aircraft took some heavy shots, but looks like it can be repairable. I know exactly by where the plane ended up, and it really is lucky the plane didnt cause a major accident. It was a very short distance from business, homes, and roadways. Now its time to figure out what happened. Glad everyones okay though.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-10 14:28:04 and read 51873 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 105):
What happens in an abandoned take off ? What happens if a landing aquaplanes, to give you just two examples? What if there is an inherent problem with the braking action on 35?

I get what you are saying, but the scenarios you are presenting will pretty much render any airport without a flat, paved abd straight surface at the end of the runway unsafe.

1. In an abandoned take-off isn't the plane suppose to only abandon the take-off if it can stop within the confines of the runway? Otherwise the crew won't abandon it, they'll continue the take-off, do a circuit and land.

2. A plane isn't supposed to simply aquaplane. There is a bunch of reasons why it happens, and they are avoided (hopefully successfully) in the course of a safe landing.

3. I assume the runway has been looked over and there is no inherent issue with the braking action on 35, otherwise the airport would not have opened.

I believe that as long as the published SOPs for landing at UIO plus the NOTAMs related to the forlorn A346 are adhered to, there should be no safety issue with the reopening of 35. Kudos for the UIO authorities for re-opening their airport so fast.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-10 14:53:03 and read 51463 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 111):
I get what you are saying, but the scenarios you are presenting will pretty much render any airport without a flat, paved abd straight surface at the end of the runway unsafe.

No, what I am saying is that every airfield has tested, callibrated, approved and legislated performance figures to which ops are applied.

Quito currently has a huge obstruction at the end of 35 which anything could run into in any number of unforseen circumstances. You can't even apply the "land after" rule, because even in that scenario, you are basing your own decision to land on the anticipation that the moving obstacle infront of you is going to vacate in time. That 340 ain't going nowhere!

With your argument, how do you now legislate what is the new, temporary approved minima for an approach? Has anyone proven yet it was pilot error or a systems fault? If not, then there remains the possibility that there is a problem with the runway surface, for example.

You can't simply reduce the LDA because there's a damn big Airbus at the end and hope everyone is going to miss it. You are on a hiding to not only another accident, but a possible mass pile-up.

You are ignoring the inherent safety standards required for ops, and if that is what is going on in Quito right now, so are the authorities. Believe me, I was in Ops & Legislation for 4 years !

I, for one, would not even consider an approach in such circumstances.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 111):
Kudos for the UIO authorities for re-opening their airport so fast.

We will have to agree to disagree

As it appears, I still believe the only safe ops at Quito presently are reduced TORA departures from 17. Anything else is inherently unsafe.

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Breiz
Posted 2007-11-10 16:09:06 and read 50971 times.

Quoting Neuroticdave (Reply 106):
Quito is indeed a hard approach.

Isn't Quito nicknamed "the Kai Tak of South America" because of this runway 17 approach?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-10 16:31:04 and read 50891 times.

Quoting RichM (Reply 90):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 92):
797, 1st A346 that are scrapped, the Toronto one was also scrapped among a few others.

I thought that was an A343?

Yes, it was. If this is aircraft is scrapped, it´ll become the first A346 that are so, only 78 delivered A346.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-10 16:41:07 and read 50832 times.

Quoting 797 (Reply 103):
Also, I believe this aircraft was assigned to a certain amount of routes... how will they handle those having this aircraft out of service?

Thanks in advance guys!

Iberia got 12 other A346 and 19 A343, with a bit of code-sharing I think they manage.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-10 17:28:15 and read 50953 times.

Quoting Breiz (Reply 109):
Isn't Quito nicknamed "the Kai Tak of South America" because of this runway 17 approach?

Yes, many people call it that but I think its because of the buildings. I've never been there or flown the RWY17 approach on the sim but I have heard it takes balls to do it, its not easy at atll


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-10 18:55:33 and read 50354 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 108):
With your argument, how do you now legislate what is the new, temporary approved minima for an approach? Has anyone proven yet it was pilot error or a systems fault? If not, then there remains the possibility that there is a problem with the runway surface, for example.

Yes. There remains a possibility that there is a problem with the runway surface. Hard to believe, though, as no other airplanes have skidded off the runway. No one has proved it was pilot error or a systems fault.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 108):
You are ignoring the inherent safety standards required for ops, and if that is what is going on in Quito right now, so are the authorities. Believe me, I was in Ops & Legislation for 4 years !

I'm really impressed with the fact that you were in Ops & Legislation for 4 years. If I ever have a question concerning those subjects, I know now who to contact. I have been in Energy Development and Infrastructure for 10 years.

I also lived in Ecuador and Bolivia for many years, and aviation regulation authorities there may operate with a lack of many things, but they are not stupid, irresponsible or homicidal, which is what you are implying.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 108):
I, for one, would not even consider an approach in such circumstances.

What you may or may not consider is besides the point. Although your opinion is very valid.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 108):
As it appears, I still believe the only safe ops at Quito presently are reduced TORA departures from 17. Anything else is inherently unsafe.

According to you. And as I said, that is entirely your opinion.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Btblue
Posted 2007-11-10 18:55:50 and read 50359 times.

I was checking this thread earlier and I'm sure there were more links to photos of the accident.

Can somebody post some links?

Thanks

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-10 18:56:02 and read 50475 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 100):
It'd be a pity to see the first WO of an A340NG so soon, I hope they repair it at any reasonable cost.

It seems it will be written off. Airbus and issurance people arrive tomorrow.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 101):
If Iberia landed 35 and went off the end into the 35 localiser and 17's lights, I cannot see how, in any aviation law sense, aircraft are being permitted to operate on 35 now at all. Why?

I still cant imagine this hapening. But whatabout when Air France overshot in toronto, did they use that RWY? Or when the 747 in KAI TAK overshot?

Quoting Neuroticdave (Reply 106):
Now its time to figure out what happened. Glad everyones okay though.

Just to let you in on something, they say that there was a technical fault........ reversers werent armed, and watching the pics, I believe its true!! No reverser is open!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Reality
Posted 2007-11-10 20:25:24 and read 50227 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 116):

Just to let you in on something, they say that there was a technical fault........ reversers werent armed, and watching the pics, I believe its true!! No reverser is open!

Well, you did report this over 12 hours ago. So you were the first to bring up that possibility. We'll see if it turns out to be one of the causes of the accident.

You are a GREAT REPORTER. This isn't exactly like the demise of the airship Hindenburg (German zeppelin) that crashed in New Jersey in 1937, but you do remind me of the famous reporter who covered that catastrophe--"Oh the humanity of it all....." Your reporting at the time of the event was exceptional and passionate. Thanks.

[Edited 2007-11-10 20:27:18]

[Edited 2007-11-10 20:36:24]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-10 21:50:50 and read 50024 times.

Quoting Reality (Reply 117):
Well, you did report this over 12 hours ago. So you were the first to bring up that possibility. We'll see if it turns out to be one of the causes of the accident.

Could very well be true, BUT if the pilots had time to think, which seems so judging from the evacuation videos that indicate that the evac was done very patiently and calm, they could and actually have to shutdown the aircraft systems, wouldn't this imply that the reverser shells close? There is a slim chance this is possible, but one thing is that maybe due to the structural damage, this shutdown wouldn't be possible, BUT then again, how are the engines shut down, they won't do this on their own I think...

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-10 21:51:34 and read 50025 times.

Quoting Neuroticdave (Reply 106):
In any case, UIO was an incident waiting to happen

There have been plenty of incidents that have already occurred in Quito. There was the DC-8 from AECA that crashed into a soccer field, ditto for a Cubana airplane, the TAME F-28, etc.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 116):
It seems it will be written off.

I'd say it'll be interesting to document the process. I would say that perhaps an AN-124 might come over to take the engines. Let us know.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 116):
No reverser is open!

Uh, oh. Good eye, but that sounds like a mistake.

Quoting Neuroticdave (Reply 106):
Quito is indeed a hard approach.

The T/O from 35 also has some difficulty to it. IIRC, the required visibility for a night T/O is 3 miles, since you have to go between two mountains on the way to GYE. Did a T/O once in the F-28, and was surprised that the pilot had to take the airplane around the mountain while climbing.

The airport is at 9000 feet, but the surrounding mountains are 15000 feet +.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-10 22:46:15 and read 49885 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 118):
BUT then again, how are the engines shut down, they won't do this on their own I think...

I would expect that the crew pulled the fire handles in an event like this. That automatically shuts the engines down.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2007-11-10 23:30:54 and read 49785 times.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 120):
would expect that the crew pulled the fire handles in an event like this. That automatically shuts the engines down.

Ok, that explains then that they were of course shut down by action of the pilots. Does this shutdown also turn the reversers off if on, or at least move the shells back to their original position?

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: 44k
Posted 2007-11-10 23:42:27 and read 49788 times.

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 91):
UIO is now operational...so far I've seen two takeoffs on runway 35

Due to the shortened runway 35 no heavy's can land at UIO at this time. At least AA has cancelled all service to UIO for the next 3 days.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 00:25:40 and read 49688 times.

Ok, well If im posting too much, just tell me, Im just posting everything as soon as I find out to keep you guys informed as your over there im over here. I use all my resources to get reliable information. Sorry if I repeat SOME inforamtion some times, ill be more carefull.

Any way, so far, all is the same, today i went to the area and saw the plane from an amazing angle!! tons of people came to take pics, and they find it to be an amusement park or so......they are even charging in some houses to get on the roofs, or gardens to see the plane. Ahh boy.

The plane is just like yesterday, now with bays closed and doors as well. DANGER markings around the airplane so people wont get close. Also, many guards near the plane. I still cant believe it, when im there!

Now, I believe baggage was given back to the passengers according to their tickets and baggage tag numbers, but what about the personal belongings inside the a/c? Is all of that considered lost? I mean, id love to get my stuff back knowing it all in one piece.

OK, I just read that IB personell in UIO and Spain have done nothing for the people. Airport authorities demand explanations and IB doesnt give any, nor any solutions! Airport people are very mad, and they dont know what will happen, but its rummored IB will cancel operations to UIO for ever they say.

Airbus and Insurance people from IB will arrive tomorrow or start their work tomorrow in order to decide the faith or destiny of this plane.


Also, regarding operations In UIO, I just read, that UIO was reopened to the discretion of the pilots and comapnys. Company CEO's had the last decision to operate or not, into UIO, so far, all of them did. I see KLM, Tampa, COPA, TACA, are operating into UIO, scheduled flights and all. Hmmm, weird though.


Now, AA canceled flights so did DL, and I believe some others did as well! Also flights are not entering UIO as ILS is broken and minimums are now up to 6KM vis, and vis now is terrible due to weather. What will happen with all these airlines!? Delays, bigger planes for the flights the next few days? I mean AA has canceled 3 flights up till now and they say in total 12 flights will be canceled!! I mean, tehre has bto be some way to fix this? Maybe a 767 to UIO for a ffew days? What about DL, and others etc!?

Thats all for now

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PITrules
Posted 2007-11-11 00:28:12 and read 49635 times.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 15):
Are there any safety issues with the runway in Quito?

Primarily, the runway isn't crowned and grooved, allowing for water runoff (similar problem in YYZ, where AF went off).

The ILS glideslope is steeper than standard, combined with an upslopeing runway. Also, the electronic glideslope of the ILS doesn't match up with the visual glideslope lights (PAPI).

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 37):
A girl was linading as I was told, last comunications heard were a girl asking winds.

Irrelevant.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 82):
After he reported that, the IB landed UNDER minnimums (3KM) vis and overshot!. How in the world do you do that?

Minimum visibility must be reported when the aircraft is at the Final Approach Fix, not at landing. What is needed for landing is adequate "flight visibility", allowing for the approach lights or the runway environment to be seen at decision height.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 112):
I have heard it takes balls to do it, its not easy at atll

Not balls, but proper training, cockpit discipline and adherence to standard procedures.

[Edited 2007-11-11 00:34:52]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Cricket
Posted 2007-11-11 00:32:30 and read 49649 times.

Wow the damage to the wing box looks severe, pretty badly banged up plane! I am not saying nothing can't be repaired but, this would take a lot of repairing!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 01:00:20 and read 49782 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 124):
Irrelevant

Depends what your point is? Im not saying that it was her fault and even more cause shes a girl, its just like a note, like saying "There was a plane in the taxiway..." or a small observation.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 124):
Minimum visibility must be reported when the aircraft is at the Final Approach Fix, not at landing. What is needed for landing is adequate "flight visibility", allowing for the approach lights or the runway environment to be seen at decision height.

Believe me, I think that he was pretty aware of the VIS when he was landing, and just as a side not, they were below minimums (3KM vis). He mentioned it on the freq GND when he cotnacted them because GND controller asked him how he had his braking action and how the vis was (If it was really 3KM or more, a very common question made to the pilots here to help determine the weather conditions and operational status of the airport). So yeah, what you are saying is pretty obvious.

What you are saying I believe we kind of already know, even more those of us who are pilots. In this case IB has a different standard for app, in bad weather and low VIS, which they didnt go with this time.

Im out for today

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-11 03:20:11 and read 49233 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 123):
Now, AA canceled flights so did DL, and I believe some others did as well! Also flights are not entering UIO as ILS is broken and minimums are now up to 6KM vis, and vis now is terrible due to weather. What will happen with all these airlines!? Delays, bigger planes for the flights the next few days? I mean AA has canceled 3 flights up till now and they say in total 12 flights will be canceled!! I mean, tehre has bto be some way to fix this? Maybe a 767 to UIO for a ffew days? What about DL, and others etc!?

Thats all for now

Airportmanager, thanks for all the great reporting!!

As of now at least, CO lists the IAH UIO flight as leaving on time (11/11/2007) from Houston.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2007-11-11 03:54:36 and read 49066 times.

Above all, credit to the crew for saving the lives of all 333 on board this plane and let's praise The Lord that a major calamity was averted in Quito.

As for the plane, sadly, it looks like write-off to me.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: EBGflyer
Posted 2007-11-11 04:00:12 and read 49017 times.

I have been checking the Iberia website since this happened and there is no information whatsoever about this incident...or is it just me?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-11 04:05:53 and read 49024 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 123):
Airport authorities demand explanations and IB doesnt give any, nor any solutions!

What exactly are the airport authorities wanting to know from IB? or what actions?
According to IB's statement, they put the passengers from the crashed plane, at least that should have continued to GYE, in hotels overnight to rest. They also made arrangements with local airlines to shuttle the people from and to Latacunga to Guayaquil. Is this not happening?

I wonder if there is just soem hysteria and raised spirits, as I am sure IB will want to continuing serving UIO. Direct traffic between Ecuador and Spain has quadrupled since 1999.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Bullpitt
Posted 2007-11-11 05:30:30 and read 48710 times.

Hi all

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 123):
I just read that IB personnel in UIO and Spain have done nothing for the people. Airport authorities demand explanations and IB doesnt give any, nor any solutions! Airport people are very mad, and they dont know what will happen, but its rummored IB will cancel operations to UIO for ever they say.

All I can say to this is that is a load ob BULLS*it. I wont go into what has been done as it's not my job but I can tell you that a lot of people have been working very hard to normalize the situation from the first minute the accident happened

People who make this remarks really piss me off.  flamed 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-11 06:13:30 and read 48517 times.

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 132):
All I can say to this is that is a load ob BULLS*it. I wont go into what has been done as it's not my job but I can tell you that a lot of people have been working very hard to normalize the situation from the first minute the accident happened

I just read a Quito newspaper online to try to find out what the grievings are, and it would seem that passengers that required it were indeed put into hotels. There were still some complaints from pax with missing bags, and others that did not seem to know if they would be flying yesterday. But for what I read, it appears that it is the Quito airport management that is angry at not having heard from IB about its side of the story despite repeated phone calls -and to start the proceedings for replacement of the damaged ILS (at a cost of 20 thousand USD) that they expect IB insurers to pay. I imagine that as a private operator, they are keen to get the airport fully operational as soon as possible to minimise finalcial losses.

From El Comercio:

"Solo el ILS cuesta, según Posso, USD 20 000. “Esto será pagado con el seguro de Iberia”. Representantes de la aerolínea no acudieron ayer a conversar con las autoridades aeronáuticas para dar su versión sobre lo sucedido. Eso molestó a los representantes y autoridades del aeropuerto. “Hemos llamado toda la mañana y no hay nadie de Iberia que responda. Es indispensable que la aerolínea exprese su versión de los hechos y ayude a los pasajeros”, señaló, tajante, Villagrán"

http://www.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC....sp?id_noticia=150019&id_seccion=11

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 120):
I would expect that the crew pulled the fire handles in an event like this. That automatically shuts the engines down.

The action of the reversers is an interesting question. I am wondering if the engines were shut down before they hit the ground. I would expect that reverse thrust would have been applied right up to the last possible second in an attempt to avert disaster, and if so, the shells would not have closed before the engines hit the ground. Would the shells have retracted fully, once damaged?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Icaro
Posted 2007-11-11 06:15:11 and read 48447 times.

about the evacuation:

If there is no immediate danger of fire and no possibility of using the stairs, the only way to leave the plane is via the chutes.
In that case, the minimum amount of chutes are used, in order proceed as save as possible. Passengers don't jump, they sit and slide, and ground staff will help them to exit the chute easily. On board part of the crew will train pax how to use the slides as they approach the exit, and some part of the crew will help them when using it.
As we have seen, it is the safest way of doing it, so the crew acted perfectly.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 07:17:03 and read 48289 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 131):

They are demanding to know the cause of the accident, testimonial of the pilots, explanations about economic put backs for the passengers, the hotel deals etc, and well the situation of the a/c to know when UIO is operational all back to normal.

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 132):
People who make this remarks really piss me off.   

Blame the news papers, im just saying what they say.

SUNNY DAY! Gonna go and get pics!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-11 07:20:48 and read 48190 times.

Have they started moving it yet, or erecting cranes or other moving equipment near the aircraft?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-11 07:33:58 and read 48134 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 135):
They are demanding to know the cause of the accident, testimonial of the pilots, explanations about economic put backs for the passengers, the hotel deals etc, and well the situation of the a/c to know when UIO is operational all back to normal.

Sure, I have gathered this from reading the online newspapers. In fact, I have also read the confirmation that the transport minister has suspended Iberia's licence for operation into Ecuador, until the government receives a statement with safeguards about its operation into the country.

I feel for the passengers if this ban continues for a while, for the disruption that would cause. Perhaps LAN, that codeshares with IB can programme extra flights.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 135):
SUNNY DAY! Gonna go and get pics!

All the best with that task! Look forward to seeing them.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 07:51:51 and read 48077 times.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 136):
Have they started moving it yet, or erecting cranes or other moving equipment near the aircraft?

Nope they say t will stay there, NOTAM says until the 24th, thats a lot of days!

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 137):
has suspended Iberia's licence for operation into Ecuador

Ohh ohhh, this is big trouble then, and the rumors are right!!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2007-11-11 08:42:43 and read 47867 times.

http://www.univision.com/contentroot/wirefeeds/lat/7327430.html

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-11 09:08:29 and read 47619 times.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 121):
Does this shutdown also turn the reversers off if on, or at least move the shells back to their original position?

That I'm not sure about. It certainly could, but I'm not aware of any requirement that it do so. If the moving portion of the reversers form part of the firewall then you would expect that they're commanded close if the fire handle is pulled.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 125):
Wow the damage to the wing box looks severe, pretty badly banged up plane!

Maybe I missed some photos, but I haven't seen anything with damage to the wing box yet. Just fairings, engines/pylons, and gear. Which one were you looking at?

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Lasham
Posted 2007-11-11 05:09:03 and read 47454 times.

Hi

Its on a little late but have added the 1st shot on Anet

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1291038/M/

Tony

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 10:42:52 and read 47667 times.

Looks bettter like this


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefano Rota



Yep a bit late but thanks any way Tony. (pic was lost 2 times in the qeue, sorry guys)

Just got back from the airport, the plane is there still in the same position, but higly important people are entering the aircraft, taking pics of the cockpit, and well, there are stairs to the airplane in the front right door. I also see that tehre is cockpit or cabin lighting. How is this so? No APU is on, no GPU is conected........ hmm, abtery lasts very little.

Also, I see ttr4ucks draining the fuel out of the airplane. Lots of people with green vests and foreign look around the airplane today. I called the Director of Civil Aviation today! He sais he might be able to help me, so tomorrow I will meet with him in the afternoon. He said hes going right now to the Spanish Embassy because things are not looking good with this situation!

All for now! Will upload later more pics.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-11-11 10:44:18 and read 47794 times.

...crazy

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A5XX
Posted 2007-11-11 05:54:30 and read 47292 times.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but my feeling tells me this is going to be a write off. This A340-600 will never leave Quito on it's own.

A5XX

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-11 11:51:39 and read 47277 times.

There is an account from a passenger on the flight:
Sacha Rosero, 35 said:

"After a quiet flight from Madrid to Quito and Guayaquil, it almost became a big tragedy.

Quito lights looked closer and closer underneath us, and when we expected a smooth landing, we felt a heavy strike in the landing gear, that on contact with the ground caused an abrupt braking action that caused luggage to be ejected from the compartments, that hit some passengers in the head and that made internal parts of the plane fall off.

On stopping, the emergency exit was opened and we felt that firemen were outside spraying foam to douse a fire.

On seeing that there was no danger of fire nor serious injuries, the flight attendants tried calming passengers until the stairs were brought in for all to disembark. Until that happened, it was 40 minutes, with people more and more nervous and babies crying. In the end they decided to deploy the emergency slides and we all started to evacuate.

On jumping and looking back at the scene is when I become nervous, as I can see that the plane is at the end of the runway, barely 200 meters from the fences that separate the airport from the buildings of the adjacent neighbourhood"

The source (in spanish) http://www.eluniverso.com/2007/11/11...20139FB3C4634B18B2EF4A9E74887.aspx

I wonder if the mentioned "contact with the ground" that caused the violent braking, was the initial touch down, or when the plane left the runway and it's landing gear started ploughing the soft ground? I am inclined to think that it was the latter. No mention in this account of the explosions that others reported. Would those be as a result of heavy wheel braking?

[Edited 2007-11-11 11:53:47]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-11 12:21:24 and read 46925 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 145):
I wonder if the mentioned "contact with the ground" that caused the violent braking, was the initial touch down, or when the plane left the runway and it's landing gear started ploughing the soft ground? I am inclined to think that it was the latter. No mention in this account of the explosions that others reported. Would those be as a result of heavy wheel braking?

It would be difficult to ascertain anything technical from what a pax would say; not wishing in any way to disregard what he said, but at 9,000', ANY landing will be (or will feel) "heavy", because the acft is landing at over 160 kts, compared to a landing speed at gd. level of about 135-140 kts. There is interesting discussion on this issue on PPRUNE, where it is suggested that the damage suffered by the tyres was consistent with wheel locking, rather than aquaplaning.

As for the banning of IB from UIO, that's kind of academic; they're hardly going to land another A340 at UIO while one is already there, blocking the end of the runway.

I wonder how far down the runway the acft was when it landed?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 12:44:57 and read 46866 times.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 146):
I wonder how far down the runway the acft was when it landed?

Thats the weird part because they say from the tower it was a normal landing, a bit higher on the app than normal but landed in the "TOLERANCE" zone. So why didnt they brake? What surprises me the most is that the plane skid 400 meters! Off the RWY into the grass area which is muddy and thick gras making it stop. If that wouldt of existed, damn, who knows what would of happened.

IB is banned only from UIO, not Ecaudor. Ahh boy, this is a mess

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-11 13:46:49 and read 46688 times.

A video of the immediate aftermath. A good one to check out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKX2SubH7DM

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-11 13:53:42 and read 46533 times.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 146):
There is interesting discussion on this issue on PPRUNE, where it is suggested that the damage suffered by the tyres was consistent with wheel locking, rather than aquaplaning.

See reply 70

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 70):
Take a look by yourselves and pay attention at pic#2. It shows that the braking action was pretty hard due to the tremendous abrasion shown by the tires of the left main landing gear which collapsed.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...t=515

As I have said previously, I really hope this aircraft can be repaired. Damage looks bad but I guess it may not be critical and...just for the record...engine # 3 has not even touched the ground and looks in perfect condition. I say this after reading the caption in the following pic and after having been able to see the engine in other pictures:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1291038/L/

3 Engines ripped out, wing lost, a landing gear ripped out, front gear colpassed!

Not three engines but two. Engines 3 and 4 look "untouched". The wing...I don't think it's "lost"...and the front gear....it didn't collapse, although it could perfectly be damaged, but we won't know the details until it's taken out of there. So far it looks perfectly attached to the airframe.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 14:35:41 and read 46178 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 149):

Umm ok, I dont want this to start into a protest or fight. Maybe the words were not right for the engine 3 but engine 3 DID hit the ground and has a compressor stall according to the airport fire men. About engine 1 and 2 I dont know if there is a compressor stall but damage is pretty obvious. Ok, Engine 1 and 2 are not ripped out (As I guess your imagining, you think they would be out in the RWY or so..... OK, maybe not, but they are broken, and off the suppor on the wing, and on the ground!!! WOW!!  Wow!

One of the main landing gears was ripped out literaly out in the middle of the RWY, front gear i mentioned to be collapsed as into bent, not straight, not like nromal, bent in, about to break, is bent just about to collapse OK? Sorry to say this in this case, you dont live here, you dont have the cotnacts to hear the news, and you unfortuneatly you havent seen the pics , detail pics i mentioned before. All my sources that have given me information are trustable, and realiable and from what I have seen from far away, all this information seems true. Wing root is broken off from the fuse, there is a crack in the wing.

In any case, IBERIA747, forgive my life for having expressed this in different wordssss!!! Ahhhh, im so sorry, I will avoid doing this again, ok? Big grin

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-11 14:51:10 and read 46356 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 150):
I dont want this to start into a protest or fight.

A fight? Wow!

where? how? who? when? am I missing something here?

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 150):
Engine 1 and 2 are not ripped out (As I guess your imagining, you think they would be out in the RWY or so..... OK, maybe not, but they are broken,

I never said engines 1 and 2 were not ripped out. Of course they are. And read my previous reply again, in which I quote an older reply posted my myself. The left main landing gear has indeed collapsed and separated from the aircraft. Calm down man.

Will you be able to stay calm and focused if you are in the middle of an emergency while you're flying an aircraft? (I guess i read somewhere you're a pilot, right?)

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 150):
forgive my life

  

[Edited 2007-11-11 15:01:43]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Bx737
Posted 2007-11-11 15:02:53 and read 46226 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 149):
As I have said previously, I really hope this aircraft can be repaired.

I gather from what I have read that the main problem is actually getting the facilities to repair the aircraft once they dig it out, which I gather is another problem. I remember when Futura did something similar in SNN they built a hangar around the aircraft and repaired it in this pop up hangar. This may not be possible here as there is limited space on the ramp.

By the way Airportmanager thank you for your reports, they are very interesting and informative.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 15:11:38 and read 46173 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 151):
A fight? Wow!

where? how? who? when? am I missing something here?

hahaha ok ok ok sorry lets keep this low profile, I think we both misunderstood our tones. I may of been missinterpreted. Any way, I meant, in general, so we dont start a discussion whether or not hee gaer was ripped out, engines etc bla bla bla, ill clear everything out

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 151):
Will you be able to stay calm and focused if you are in the middle of an emergency while you're flying an aircraft? (I guess i read somewhere you're a pilot, right?)

Sorry for giving a wrong impression about my tone or atitude in this psot, all is clam in my side.

Thanksgod in my training so far the only emergency ive had is a loose brake during landing in a 172, not to mention my friend from ICARO who a week ago crashed in HC-CDN total loss, theyre alive, thats the best. They can really say something about emergency handling situations etc.

Anyway, just restating, didnt mean to give a wrong impression about my atitude o to sound agresive etc.!  Smile All ok on my side, sorry for the tone on my last post.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-11 16:23:50 and read 45773 times.

don't know if this has been mentioned but it looks at though the T/R's havent been deployed. has striking similarity to the Air France crash.
http://www.elperiodico.cat/info/gale...leria.asp?idioma=CAS&idgaleria=969

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B757capt
Posted 2007-11-11 16:59:09 and read 45682 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 148):
A video of the immediate aftermath. A good one to check out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKX2S...bH7DM

Take a look at the pilot, thats a sad video to watch, unreal.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Reality
Posted 2007-11-11 18:45:56 and read 45139 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 150):
Ahhhh, im so sorry, I will avoid doing this again, ok? Big grin



Quoting Wirelock (Reply 154):
Sorry for giving a wrong impression about my tone or atitude in this psot,

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for or to be sorry about and there is no need to change your "tone." Just ignore the sarcasm and unfounded criticism of a few a.netters and continue to give us your raw, unpretentious insights as to what is going at your own airport. Some of your conclusions may be wrong, others will be right. It doesn't matter how accurate you are at the moment. All that will be sorted out in the future. You eyewitness accounts are fascinating and are appreciated here by 99% of us. Just forget about the 1% who like to find fault and challenge everything.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IAHcsr
Posted 2007-11-11 19:10:54 and read 45031 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 128):
As of now at least, CO lists the IAH UIO flight as leaving on time (11/11/2007) from Houston.

CO tried to get in to UIO yesterday as well (11/10) ... CO653 ended diverting to MEC instead.. Which I think was expected as I heard buses had been prearranged.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Czbbflier
Posted 2007-11-11 19:19:18 and read 44956 times.

Airportmanager / Stefano-
Thanks for your observations and descriptions. Given your proximity to the situation, your connections (Minister of Transport) and expertise (student pilot). You're the lead-man in this situation, Stefano. Others may be getting a bit emotional.... stick to the facts and you'll be strong.

The photo queue worked out after all! Beautiful shot!
-Brian

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-11 21:31:42 and read 45017 times.

Ok, so far what I have heard since the alst post is that IB will give a press conference tomorrow morning, monday, and then I guess we will know whats new with this.

In the news they also said the pilot is to blame......... HA, thats so easy to say, but any way, until its not proven so, there are 10000000 million sepculations and rumors. I have my own, as Ive posted before, but once we hear for real something oficial, then we can argue.

I called the UIO Airport station manager a=during his shift and he said, VERY REALIABLE source, that the plane will be dismantled in its present position. I simply cant beleive this happeneing, I wodner if its true though. But well, lets see.

Last, this conflict has caused 100 more problems with airlines, delays, passengers, and much more. GYE this weeked was hectic and chaotic, and IB is to blame amoung all the people. Any way.

Last, when I spoke with this guy from UIO he said engine 3 DID impact the grass area upon the overshoot having "dirt and trash injestion". And, it didnt have severe damage at naked eye, but as I was told, it is broken. As you will see alter in some new pics I have, there is a sad sight showing the interior of the engine with chip rapers and candy rappers and trash inside the engine! (#2).....

Quoting Reality (Reply 156):
You have absolutely nothing to apologize for or to be sorry about and there is no need to change your "tone." Just ignore the sarcasm and unfounded criticism of a few a.netters and continue to give us your raw, unpretentious insights as to what is going at your own airport. Some of your conclusions may be wrong, others will be right. It doesn't matter how accurate you are at the moment. All that will be sorted out in the future. You eyewitness accounts are fascinating and are appreciated here by 99% of us. Just forget about the 1% who like to find fault and challenge everything.



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 158):
Airportmanager / Stefano-
Thanks for your observations and descriptions. Given your proximity to the situation, your connections (Minister of Transport) and expertise (student pilot). You're the lead-man in this situation, Stefano. Others may be getting a bit emotional.... stick to the facts and you'll be strong.

The photo queue worked out after all! Beautiful shot!
-Brian

Hey guys, I thank you so much for giving these motivating word which really keep me up to post more and find out more. All I post is what I hear from my many sources. About putting down my town "reality", its just a formality, dont want this thread to be locked  Wink hahahaha!!

Any way, yeah, I mean, all I have done is get the inforamtion and from what I see, read and here, transfer all this info to you guys.

Tomorrow might be a big day for me. As I said, ive contacted the DGAC, Aviation authoritie director, the top dog if you wish, and he is a friend of the family. I am considering asking him to let me in to take pics which I will share with the DGAC for the ivnestigation. This way, and only this way can I get into the reck, as DGAC is the only ones who can let ANYONE into the scene, not the airprot authorities. So lets cross our figners he can move a few rocks to let me in  Wink

With my little flight experience as a student pilot (55 Flight hours), but hundreds of jumpseat flights, and many contacts and friend in aviation in Ecuador, and aviation experience, I have managed to give all my speculations, and share my knoledge along with the facts. So as you guys said before, Ill keep on sharing what i know as I find out more. And thanks again to all of you for your support.

On a side thought, I believe that IB should ERRASE or COVER the logos and names. I mean, 90% of the people know its IB, but people coming in who havent found out, and see this, might be shocked and say "NEVER AGAIN IN IB", or you know, how rummors spread,... thats my thought. Believe me, the plane is very darn visible, but not everybody may distinguish its IB. As I heard today, some people in the crowd said it was American Airlines, others said Tame..... and guys, come on, you can clearly read IBERIA. So its better ofif they errase it or so.


Enjoy these pics! Sorry for the copyright notice, but these pics are tempting, you know how people are  Wink


Hmm a view from the street



Just a little bit too clsoe to disaster!



Engine #1........ "great" shape



Engine #2...... Yummm, look at all that dirt, grass anddddd Chip bags and dorito type wrappers



The people in here, darn lucky there was mud and grass to stop this aircraft huh?



And there you go, visible to the public, and what a sight, certainly its like Im dreaming, this cant be real! Right over the tunnels. Picture this same incident without the tunnel which was built like 6 years ago...... Also, the inner airport ring tunnel, to the left of this one has a hole due to the A346 weight!



I like this one...... kinda dramatic you think?



I dare somone to get that landing gear out of there!



ANDDDDDDDDDD, ENGINE #3!!!!!!!! Id dare to think its not in perfect shape  Wink perhaps not ripped out  Wink That is all for today


(Sorry if these pics suddenly dont show up, this web page which hosts my iamges gives very little bandwith! Dont know what to do!)
These are the non a.net quality pics I wont upload (I assume) but I have others whcih are due to be uploaded. Hmmmm, who knows  Smile

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-11 21:46:01 and read 44545 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 159):
On a side thought, I believe that IB should ERRASE or COVER the logos and names. I mean, 90% of the people know its IB, but people coming in who havent found out, and see this, might be shocked and say "NEVER AGAIN IN IB", or you know, how rummors spread,... thats my thought. Believe me, the plane is very darn visible, but not everybody may distinguish its IB. As I heard today, some people in the crowd said it was American Airlines, others said Tame..... and guys, come on, you can clearly read IBERIA. So its better ofif they errase it or so.

Agreed. When a P5 E-190 had an overrun, the titles that identify the aircraft as P5 were painted over by the evening after the incident.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-11 22:24:31 and read 44410 times.

Thanks very much for the great photos, Airportmananger. What a sad sight this is; the aircraft is only about 20 months in service, having been delivered to IB in March 2006.

When you say, "dismantled", I take this to being "cut up and moved in sections" - and not to be put back together again? In other words, that's it for 'Oscar Hotel?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-12 00:33:12 and read 43956 times.

Thank you for your reporting.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 159):
Just a little bit too clsoe to disaster!

Was this close to were the AECA and Cubana airplanes crashed?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Flying Belgian
Posted 2007-11-12 00:44:42 and read 44022 times.

Looking at Youtube's video of the crash's aftermath, we see the pilot opening the cockpit window and looking at the plane.

I really wonder what are his feelings at that very moment. Should be terrible feeling.
The strobe is still on, adding drama to the view.

Such a beautiful bird... But once again no casualties is a relief. This one could have ended up like SDU's TAM crash IMO.


FB.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-12 00:51:27 and read 43914 times.

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 163):
Looking at Youtube's video of the crash's aftermath, we see the pilot opening the cockpit window and looking at the plane.

I really wonder what are his feelings at that very moment. Should be terrible feeling.

well i'm sure that terrible feeling is compounded when he looks at his instrument panel and sees that he hasn't deployed the thrust reversers and possibly prevented the crash.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iwok
Posted 2007-11-12 02:05:12 and read 43534 times.

Stefano÷[/quote]

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 153):
Sorry for giving a wrong impression

Airportmanager: there is no need to say this... You are doing excellent work with all that you have posting here, and I think that 99.99% of us are fascinated by the pictures and facts that you are presenting. Its rare that we are able to get this level of intelligence in such situations.

Keep it up!

iwok

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LEZL
Posted 2007-11-12 02:39:03 and read 43341 times.

Dear Ariportmanager (Stefano),

Marvelous. You're doing a SUPERB job, letting us have so much photos and info and, specially, inside info, which is very rare to obtain in these situations

It's very grateful for all of us to have a very special reporter in this airport. I'm sure that the level you're currently establishing for UIO will be very hard to beat in any other airport in the world

So, keep going, man, just as you've been doing up till now. We're all ears and eyes

Thanks very much

Best regards,

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2007-11-12 04:00:08 and read 42917 times.

Airportmanager, thank you so very much for your updates and photos. This situation is undoubtedly stressful for you and all of your staff and it takes a lot of courage to keep the world aviation community updated. You have been doing a superb job.

This indeed could so easily have been a major disaster, just looking at the last photos. Sadly I would say that this is the end of the road (or runway) for this plane - though we will wait and see.

Muchas gracias y saludos,

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: EBGflyer
Posted 2007-11-12 04:30:23 and read 42734 times.

Quoting B757capt (Reply 155):
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 148):
A video of the immediate aftermath. A good one to check out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKX2S...bH7DM

Take a look at the pilot, thats a sad video to watch, unreal.

The link is no longer working. No video there. Anyone know where to find it?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-12 04:35:28 and read 42869 times.

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 168):
The link is no longer working. No video there. Anyone know where to find it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKX2SubH7DM

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-12 04:37:16 and read 42709 times.

Couldn't find it myself; it said "malformed URL" and when I searched under "Iberia A340, Quito", it didn't bring it up.

Any more news on the plans re-'JOH. Can we take take it for granted now that it is a write-off?

Also, while looking at photos on "another site", I saw a very good photo of Stefano's, showing the site of the new Quito Airport, "due" to be opened in 2010 ... However, it is notable that at the far end of the runway, there seems to be a very steep ravine. It just struck me that it is very lucky that this accident didn't happen there.

(Last time I tried to post the link, my post was deleted, as we're not allowed to link to "that site".)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Omoo
Posted 2007-11-12 05:16:56 and read 42750 times.

Better pics:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefano Rota




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefano Rota




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dennis Lee




and those Glory days................


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-12 05:18:50 and read 42468 times.

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 168):
The link is no longer working. No video there. Anyone know where to find it?

Go to reply 148 and click on that link.

There is a lot of damage on the left wing anf the lower fuselage. Can it be fixed? yes, but it won't be easy. There are no facilities at UIO that can handle the A346. To repair this type of damage , the airplane has to be shored up and jigged. That will not be easy with the weather at UIO. I have done work on that ramp on EU's 707's and DC-10. I do not put it up there on my list of pleasant things to do.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: OzTech
Posted 2007-11-12 05:41:56 and read 42336 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 159):
(Sorry if these pics suddenly dont show up, this web page which hosts my iamges gives very little bandwith! Dont know what to do!)
These are the non a.net quality pics I wont upload (I assume) but I have others whcih are due to be uploaded. Hmmmm, who knows

Can you use Photobucket or some other free photo host site.. Can the moderators allow a fast import of these pics if you email them to them..
Your upload site has blocked download again.. We all here would love to see the pics. Oh and by the way my friend, you are doing a great job keeping us up to date. Well done.. 10/10

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2007-11-12 05:49:36 and read 42290 times.

Cant tell for sure but the fuselage doesnt seem buckled - pylons and gear can be replaced I would think, but whether she is a CTL would be determined by frame distortion in the fuselage for the most part.

If the fuselage is structurally undamaged then I would think she would be repaired - although the gear getting torn off suggests to me that there must be some structural damage.

Fingers crossed IB decide to save her.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Cloudyapple
Posted 2007-11-12 06:30:35 and read 42032 times.

The Iberia logo has not been painted over yet so there is still hope  Smile

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-12 07:26:26 and read 42118 times.

Hmmm ok, so far nothing much new. I have called the DGAC Director and no answer as I believe he is in a TV channel, since today hes ahd a number of interviews. Never the less, I will insist and call him.

Media said there were bringing cranes today to remove an A346 from the header. I was surprised, this meant that the plane would be saved. I then called ramp manager whoi has the morning shift and she said, that is not true! Insurance company has not said anything about the aircraft, the only thing they have said is that they think it will be brooken up..... dismanteled in present position just like tradewinds 742 in SKRG.

So far thats basically it. titales are still there, no news from IB, lets wait and see.

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 163):
I really wonder what are his feelings at that very moment. Should be terrible feeling.
The strobe is still on, adding drama to the view.

Ahh boy, that is a shocking view for the captain, I have to thoughts of what he could be saying or thinking

"The wing is still tehre, engines are still there, no fire? Im alive? Great, lets evacuate......."

Other idea is

"Holly crap, im in deep **** "

And believe me, i think its both of them  Wink

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 162):
Was this close to were the AECA and Cubana airplanes crashed?

Aeca was further down, this is closer to the RWY end

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 174):
Cant tell for sure but the fuselage doesnt seem buckled - pylons and gear can be replaced I would think, but whether she is a CTL would be determined by frame distortion in the fuselage for the most part.

According, once again, to my sources, they were told Fusse has stress, which is obvious by some crasks in some key parts of the structure, which leads to a conlcusion. W/O
Hmm a view from the street



A view from the street?



Just a little bit too close to disaster
img]http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8251/92512089ij4.jpg[/img]


Engine #1........ "great" shape



Engine #2...... Yummm, look at all that dirt, grass anddddd Chip bags and dorito type wrappers



The people in here, darn lucky there was mud and grass to stop this aircraft huh?
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7550/83393235ec3.jpg


And there you go, visible to the public, and what a sight, certainly its like Im dreaming, this cant be real! Right over the tunnels. Picture this same incident without the tunnel which was built like 6 years ago...... Also, the inner airport ring tunnel, to the left of this one has a hole due to the A346 weight!



I like this one...... kinda dramatic you think?



I dare somone to get that landing gear out of there!



ANDDDDDDDDDD, ENGINE #3!!!!!!!! Id dare to think its not in perfect shape perhaps not ripped out That is all for today

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-12 07:28:34 and read 42250 times.

wroSorry, this one went wrong before!

Just a little bit too close to disaster

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Comorin
Posted 2007-11-12 09:15:08 and read 41312 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 176):
I dare somone to get that landing gear out of there!

I'll do it for a cigar!

signed

Joe Patroni

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: NYC777
Posted 2007-11-12 09:17:39 and read 41326 times.

Does any know if this a W/O airframe. I cna't tell from the pics at the e4xtent of the damage. A lot of lucky people. Another 20 - 30 feet and it's in the houses and the ditch

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-12 09:22:51 and read 41249 times.

Stefano

Thanks for the awesome pics!! You've done an amazing job!

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LH526
Posted 2007-11-12 09:42:37 and read 41330 times.

Lufthansa was able to repair that bird and made it fly for over 15 mroe years ...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin MacInnes

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-12 10:16:35 and read 40878 times.

Thats a Boeing, real metal, not plastic....... Big grin

hahaha, nah for real this plane is a passenger aircraft, I think standards for repairs like these are different. Besides, how can you fix a plane with no infrastructure, UIO has no place to fix this plane, and I believe it to be very hard.

Stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Geo772
Posted 2007-11-12 10:24:19 and read 40751 times.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 181):
Lufthansa was able to repair that bird and made it fly for over 15 mroe years ...

A valid point, however Kaitak was a well equiped airport for major maintenance, whereas Quito is not quite in the same league. Kaitak had more than it's fair share of takeoff and landing incidents over the years most of which requiire major overall facilities.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: HT
Posted 2007-11-12 10:26:52 and read 41014 times.

In the following picture, the A346 looks like a B757 ...
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7550/83393235ec3.jpg

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Acelanzarote
Posted 2007-11-12 10:38:27 and read 40678 times.

Has anyone from Airbus gone out to advise on repairs/best way of moving the plane???

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Cubastar
Posted 2007-11-12 10:45:19 and read 40647 times.

This was mentioned once before in this thread and after watching the "immediate aftermath" video I would like to bring up again the fact that the cockpit crew MAY not have done the followup checklist after this accident. In the video, you can see that the captain is still in his seat and the strobe lights are still flashing. After ANY accident, certainly involving the rupture of any engines and the collapse of a landing gear, the cockpit crew and the cabin crew have specific instructions and definite areas (doors) to which they should proceed if able. You never can tell if there has been a fuel spill, etc. and any electrical power on the aircraft (except for the emergency lights in the cabin) should be removed and the passengers should be evacuated. In my opinion, by not beginning an immediate evacuation, the crew took the chance of a fire starting and the results COULD have been disastrous. I'm sure that some a.netters will accuse me of "second guessing" the crew, but in an analogy with another accident (the AF A343 in Canada), if the Air France crew had waited, there would have been the POSSIBILITY of a great loss of life.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-12 11:06:55 and read 40489 times.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 183):
however Kaitak was a well equiped airport for major maintenance

KaiTak had the vast majority of its movements consist of 747s and WBs also. UIO doesn't. I don't even think they have the extra ramp space required for any fix.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 186):
strobe lights are still flashing

That doesn't look right to me, but that is just my opinion for now.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Acelanzarote
Posted 2007-11-12 11:17:29 and read 40413 times.

Well as an insurance job the question which will cost the least:-
To pay to repair the plane or to scrap it and pay out.
The lack of ramp space etc must also come into the final outcome.

Finally are Iberia going to have to lease a plane to cover the schedules or is there enough
play in the fleet not to miss one two much?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-12 11:36:28 and read 40247 times.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 181):
Lufthansa was able to repair that bird and made it fly for over 15 mroe years ...

And it's still flying for an Italian cargo airline.  Wink

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-12 11:38:08 and read 40231 times.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 186):
the strobe lights are still flashing.

I thought the same thing.

But as to fuel spill, wouldn't there be a warning light or something? I know one of the videos had the fire trucks spraying foam on the engine (one of the UTUBE videos). In the same video you can see the Capt. looking out to the left (where the spraying is going on). Perhaps they received advice from the fire crew?

Also, as many of Stefano's excellent photos point out, some of the door would open on to a ditch. The crew in consultation with the airport staff may have felt those doors weren't safe.

But, like you, I did wonder about only one slide being used. Surely there must have been a good reason? IB (I would think) has specific evacuation plans for this type of incident. I thought I read in a previous post that the plan was to bring stairs but wasn't an easy fit to the door ref the location of hte plane. IF (and I say IF) that is accurate, clearly they (fire crew, cockpit crew, etc) wouldn't have been an option -- they would have evaculated the plane w/o waiting for an option of stairs (one would think).

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-12 11:45:12 and read 40260 times.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 186):
You never can tell if there has been a fuel spill, etc. and any electrical power on the aircraft (except for the emergency lights in the cabin) should be removed and the passengers should be evacuated. In my opinion, by not beginning an immediate evacuation, the crew took the chance of a fire starting and the results COULD have been disastrous

The authorities in Ecuador are concerned that the evacuation did not start after 30 minutes of the plane coming to a halt. It seems that the crew were hoping that stairs could be brought in!
Part of the requirements that the authorities there are requiring from the airline before revoking its ban on flights to UIO are the training policy for evacuation procedures, as well as flightdeck crew competence when landing at this high altitude airport.
I have to agree that with fuel lines possibly broken, a safer course of action would have been to open all non-hazard emergency doors and leave promptly.
As it happened, there was no fire, and people left with minimal injuries, whereas in a hurried evacuation there might well have been some. Seeing old people being helped to lower themselves slowly seem very caring, but at what risk?
As a contrast, remember the TACA evacuation in Guatemala after an over-run. It was extremely efficient, and the crew very assertive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7LKWGnTXk

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-12 12:06:46 and read 40080 times.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 186):
In my opinion, by not beginning an immediate evacuation, the crew took the chance of a fire starting and the results COULD have been disastrous.

I agree with you, they say that they evacuated in total, 30 minutes. And as mentioned , I also think they were waiting for stairs to and rescue them!! That way perhaps they though they didnt have to inflate the tobbogans, saving that hassle. Ridiculous! Its an emergency!!

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 188):
The lack of ramp space etc must also come into the final outcome.

Ohh yeah, this will be a problem, i wonder....  Wow!

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 191):
The authorities in Ecuador are concerned that the evacuation did not start after 30 minutes of the plane coming to a halt. It seems that the crew were hoping that stairs could be brought in!
Part of the requirements that the authorities there are requiring from the airline before revoking its ban on flights to UIO are the training policy for evacuation procedures, as well as flightdeck crew competence when landing at this high altitude airport.

Exactly true, you took the words from me  Smile


I just called operations (Boy theyre patient with me calling every hour hahahah almost) and they say Cielos del Peru DC10 brought equiptment to pull the plane out, or to scrap it, they dont exactly know! Also, Logos and titles are being errased! (Seems to me they read these forums and decided to errase the logos!! )Ill try to go there ASAP!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Omoo
Posted 2007-11-12 12:24:25 and read 40101 times.

Here is a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKX2S...iberia-a340-600-quito-overrun.html

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-12 12:43:30 and read 39792 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 192):
Also, Logos and titles are being errased!

Is this normal? I am guessing because no one wants their company logo associated with an accident?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-12 12:54:43 and read 39669 times.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 194):
Is this normal?

Yes, it's common procedure.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 194):
I am guessing because no one wants their company logo associated with an accident?

That is correct. That's why you also see many airliners in storage places like VCV or MHV for example, that got its titles removed as well.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: EBGflyer
Posted 2007-11-12 14:11:13 and read 39236 times.

Incredible that Iberia hasn't even posted anything on their website. That doesn't give them points in my confidence book!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-12 14:48:08 and read 39064 times.

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 196):
Incredible that Iberia hasn't even posted anything on their website. That doesn't give them points in my confidence book!


See reply 60 or click on this link (it's in Spanish). This press release has been showing on their website since last Saturday morning.

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...e836726110VgnVCM100000930216ac____

This other press release was put on their website today. Click on the link (in Spanish too)

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...be8a336110VgnVCM100000930216ac____

The most important aspects of the first press release are more or less explained in English on reply 60.

The second announcement is only to let people know that IB keeps flying to Guayaquil. They have also hired local carriers to make the GYE-UIO-GYE runs for those passengers whose final destination is Quito.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FFlyer
Posted 2007-11-12 15:04:01 and read 38905 times.

As somebody else mentioned earlier:

It looks like the thrust-reversers were not deployed!!!

Wouldn't that be a major screw-up from the flight crew? It could be, of course, that they didn't work, and that's why they ended up where they did.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-12 15:16:14 and read 38808 times.

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 198):
As somebody else mentioned earlier:

It looks like the thrust-reversers were not deployed!!!

Wouldn't that be a major screw-up from the flight crew?

Yes that would be a major screw up... and i'm sure something that the insurance company will be very interested in.
also i'm very interested as to why the slides were not deployed. this flight crew are making some critical mistakes at crucial times. they have a lot to answer for !!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Copa737DFW
Posted 2007-11-12 15:22:53 and read 38773 times.

Did the diversion of Continental flight 654 from Quito to Houston (diverted to PTY) have anything to with the what happened in Quito? They were diverted Sunday and today.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Stgs1988
Posted 2007-11-12 15:34:08 and read 38920 times.

I might be stupid, but - how/when are the authorities/Iberia etc. going to move the plane out of there ?

Is the plane airworthy?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-12 15:47:37 and read 38854 times.

Quoting Copa737DFW (Reply 200):
Did the diversion of Continental flight 654 from Quito to Houston (diverted to PTY) have anything to with the what happened in Quito? They were diverted Sunday and today.

Most likely. Since the notional runway length has been reduced, some flights will have to take off lighter than they would normally do, and so less fuel is loaded, making a techical stop on the way necessary.
The CO flight last night could not land in Quito as the weather conditions did not permit it, so there as a diversion to Manta.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FAEDC3
Posted 2007-11-12 15:57:33 and read 38806 times.

Quoting 797 (Reply 103):
Is the insurance broker going to pay the loss of the airframe or IB will just experience a loss (huge!) in their financial papers?

Actually that is the insurance business, taking calculated risks. The "broker" or more likely the Insurance company that had insured the plane would have to take a loss of course, but it really is a fraction of the total. Insurance companies re-insure the risk they have just taken with another insurer, who usually gets this risk re- insured again.... basically the idea is that the loss would be shared between the Iberia (thru a deductible) and the insurers and re insurers. Is a lot of money, but nobody takes the hit by themselves.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 191):
As a contrast, remember the TACA evacuation in Guatemala after an over-run. It was extremely efficient, and the crew very assertive.

That must be one of the must incredible videos I have seen... I never thought there was a real video of something like that. The screams and desperation of the passengers is just frightening

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Icaro
Posted 2007-11-12 16:04:50 and read 38838 times.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 199):
this flight crew are making some critical mistakes at crucial times. they have a lot to answer for !!
You still don't know if they made any mistakes at all. Do we know why the reversers were not deployed? Not yet
We still don't know any facts to say that it is pilot error. Maybe the reversers could not be deployed due to some mechanical failure, maybe the gear broke because of some defect, or the brakes locked making the tyres explode... or maybe it was all pilot error.
We do not have facts.
The only fact that we DO have is that there were no injuries. And we can be almost sure that if they had evacuated via the chutes in 90 seconds, we would be saying something different. There were for sure lots of elder people and children and babies. Flights to Quito are like that, lots of families with little kids and UM's.
Concerning the evacuation, the captain DID take the right decision: observe and act in consequence. He didn't see any immediate danger and decided to wait and protect his passengers and crew.
Saying that the chutes were not inflated to save money is absurd to say something light.

[Edited 2007-11-12 16:07:43]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Scooter01
Posted 2007-11-12 16:12:07 and read 38783 times.

Having spent the better part of the last 2 hours reading every post in this thread and watcing the videos, I am surprised no-one has commented on how quickly the fire-trucks and people from the airport-authority (in yellow wests) got to the scene.
-Almost as if they were pre-warned???

Also thanks to Airportmanager for great reporting!

Scooter01

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2007-11-12 16:12:52 and read 38795 times.

i'm hearing it is a total loss...........will be a few days for a crane to come in and remove sections at a time.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-12 17:37:30 and read 38426 times.

Quoting Icaro (Reply 204):
The only fact that we DO have is that there were no injuries.

that is only 1 fact that we have. the reversers were not deployed that is a fact. also have you ever looked out of a cockpit window aft to see the view you have ??? well it would be impossible for a pilot to tell if there was a fire on the right hand side of the plane for example. the pilot looks out ,sees the left wing shattered and decides there is no danger. come on but i ain't buying that. as for having elderly people and children on board... all the more reason to evacuate immediatley!!
i know if i was on that aircraft they would have to shoot me to stop me getting off in a hurry

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Thepilott
Posted 2007-11-12 18:34:19 and read 38182 times.

Or perhaps the thrust reversers were de-activated when the aircraft came to a full stop, or when the engines where shut down.. I simply doubt that the thrust reversers wearn't activated..

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FAEDC3
Posted 2007-11-12 18:48:16 and read 38129 times.

Just to keep hearing this rumor about the a/c being w/o is just sad... specially because it makes me wonder if IB will keep sending their widebodies to UIO after 2 incidents in 2 months....

UIO is a great airport that of course has its downsides and difficulties, but it would be horrible to see all this beautiful widebodies to disappear as AF or LH did, only to be left with small 320 and regional airliners...

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-12 18:57:40 and read 38096 times.



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 182):
Besides, how can you fix a plane with no infrastructure, UIO has no place to fix this plane, and I believe it to be very hard.

Boeing and Airbus (and a handful of MRO's) are capable of doing this type of work in the field with site-built jigs and shoring. It's expensive, but if you're willing to spend the money there is almost no level of repair that can't be done on site.

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 185):
Has anyone from Airbus gone out to advise on repairs/best way of moving the plane???

It would depend if they were asked to. Typically, in situations like this, the owner (or insurance company) gets surveys done by whatever AOG teams they want to work with, gets quotes, then makes a decision. It's very likely that the Airbus AOG team would have been one of the ones asked to look at it.

Quoting Stgs1988 (Reply 201):
how/when are the authorities/Iberia etc. going to move the plane out of there ?

I have no idea on when, but based on the limited info I've seen I'd think they'd use airbags to get it up, take off the engines, then set what's left down on wheeled platforms and tow it wherever it needs to go.

Quoting Stgs1988 (Reply 201):
Is the plane airworthy?

Nope. Airworthy = safe to fly + conformance with type design. Even if it's safe to fly (very doubtful) there's no way it conforms to type design.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Brenintw
Posted 2007-11-12 19:04:26 and read 38055 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 210):
Boeing and Airbus (and a handful of MRO's) are capable of doing this type of work in the field with site-built jigs and shoring. It's expensive, but if you're willing to spend the money there is almost no level of repair that can't be done on site.

Unfortunately, that requires SPACE. From what I've seen/read of the airport, the space is the problem.

I've seen video of the IB A346 at Quito -- it takes up two bays, because it has to park diagonally in order to not obstruct taxi/runways.

You can throw endless amounts of money at a problem -- but when you don't have the space to do what is needed, it rapidly becomes uneconomical to pay to shut down the entire airport to fix a plane.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Comorin
Posted 2007-11-12 19:12:04 and read 38032 times.

This is a wonderful opportunity for those of us not in aviation to get a first hand report of an accident, as well as read comments by professionals. Very thrilling!

Question: To the layman, it looks like, well, jack the plane up, get some new wheels, pylons and engines, and you're good to go. The main part of the aircraft (the fuselage) looks unscratched, so how come most of you feel that this is a write-off?

The damage is obviously much more extensive than it appears to the untrained eye, so I'd be most grateful for clarifications.

Thanks in advance!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2007-11-12 20:16:21 and read 37883 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 212):
Question: To the layman, it looks like, well, jack the plane up, get some new wheels, pylons and engines, and you're good to go. The main part of the aircraft (the fuselage) looks unscratched, so how come most of you feel that this is a write-off?

Space. It is possible for either Boeing or Airbus to send out repair teams and literally work on this aircraft on some temporary jigs in a tent. I'm reminded of the extensive damage to that WN 737NG in MDW that was repaired. But MDW has adequate facilities. UIO doesn't. And the A346 is a big bird that will take up a lot of space while sitting there. Closing an airport to fix one plane doesn't make sense unless it were possible to do a temporary patch up and ferry the thing to a larger facility. Considering noone's suggested that, I suspect that it's highly unlikely/against common flight rules.

The insurance companies will decide. Pretty simple formula too...

Cost of repair vs. value of aircraft. If the former exceeds the latter, she's totalled. I'm glad everyone got out without any injuries.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-12 23:40:37 and read 37478 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 194):
Is this normal? I am guessing because no one wants their company logo associated with an accident?

Thats true, as you said, almost everybody knows its IB, but well, some dont. As i Said, people yesterday said it was American or TAME or so. And maybe not everybody in the world knows about it, but If wouldnt know about it, and Im coming into Quito, and I see, a Big A$$ plane ditched in a RWY seeing its a incident, crash etc, and it sais IBERIA, damn, I wouldnt trust them. Then I bet Id talk about it and rumors are quick to fly around the world and that rumor spreads and reputation for the airline goes DOWN, so yeah a smart choice, allthough they should done that like the night of the accident.

As a detail, they are painting it white I was told.

Quoting Copa737DFW (Reply 200):
Did the diversion of Continental flight 654 from Quito to Houston (diverted to PTY) have anything to with the what happened in Quito? They were diverted Sunday and today.

Its due to the lack of ILS and bad weather in UIO these weeks at night is so common, and you hear so many missed apps with ILS, imagine no ILS. Today a few hours ago I was at my girlfriends and I usually from the living room see the planes pass to the left and very high, today I saw a AV MD tottaly tottally to the right and facing against PICHINCHA "volcano" which is like. TOTALLY LOST! I then heard him do a missed app. He was very low and lost. After that a 737 and a few other the same in different directions and all. I mean, I even see this during the day, pilos are very lost.

I hear a COPA pilot today argue very bad with a ATC saying he was facing a tottaly oposite direction which lead him into a hill near the outer marker, and he was very mad and blamed the ATC saying that this is very dangerous. He meant operating in such a dangerous terrain, as UIO, with high elevation, is dangerous, with out a LOC nor GS, even worse in marginal conditions...

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 205):
-Almost as if they were pre-warned???

TRUE TRUE TRUE!!! I believe they did a great great job!! I have to say UIO's emergency team is very well preapraed no matter the size of the emergency.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 206):
i'm hearing it is a total loss...........will be a few days for a crane to come in and remove sections at a time.

Yeah, we hear the same, I have hear 99% of the commetns, total loss and scrap in present postion.

Other say there is still no defenite decision, even more now, when I hear CIELOS DEL PERU brought some special equiptment to take the plane out. But, will they scrap it once its removed??

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 207):
come on but i ain't buying that. as for having elderly people and children on board... all the more reason to evacuate immediatley!!

I agree 100%! Emergency is an emergency no matter what! They should of evacuated in seconds!! Not in 45 minutes! What if the plane suddenly caught in fire..... ohhh crap!!Better off being say than tempting more fatalities.

Quoting Thepilott (Reply 208):
Or perhaps the thrust reversers were de-activated when the aircraft came to a full stop, or when the engines where shut down.. I simply doubt that the thrust reversers wearn't activated..

Hmm, I tend to disagree. How can you deactivate your reversers before overshooting when you know thats one of the main sources to stop you from overshooting? Even more when you see there is no chance of stopping. Last, I doubt reversers got RIGHT back into place once he "shut down engine" if they hit thee ground. I mean, I doubt that engines were shut down normally, after they hit the ground. Reversers would of been open, even after impact, even more if theyre resting on the ground. Kinda hard to explain, but I hope you get my point.

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 211):
I've seen video of the IB A346 at Quito -- it takes up two bays, because it has to park diagonally in order to not obstruct taxi/runways.

Yeah, space is very limited. CArgo area is one option....... but, it takes up the whole ramp or 3/4th's of it. Air force, Hmm I dont think it can be put there due to lenth and wingspan. So, no idea


Anyway, back to the updates. So far nothing much. I had a busy afternoon and I couldnt reach the crash site, so tomorrow Ill go. Im still begging police people to take me up in the helicopter to get a shot of it. DGAC people are still evaluating my request to go into the airport to take pics, but honestly I doubt I will be let in. This time maybe I wont be so lucky as to being helped like in other cases to take pics etc.

Its late so ill head off to bed!! tomorrow Ill find out more!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iahmark
Posted 2007-11-13 00:39:46 and read 37227 times.



Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 209):
UIO is a great airport that of course has its downsides and difficulties, but it would be horrible to see all this beautiful widebodies to disappear as AF or LH did, only to be left with small 320 and regional airliners...

This is also in my mind regardless if it was a mechanical fault or else the geography of the airport and now the lack of ILS could trigger safety concerns in other airlines and some of them may decide is not worth the risk to operate in UIO and go to alternate airports likely for good.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 214):
s due to the lack of ILS and bad weather in UIO these weeks at night is so common, and you hear so many missed apps with ILS, imagine no ILS. Today a few hours ago I was at my girlfriends and I usually from the living room see the planes pass to the left and very high, today I saw a AV MD tottaly tottally to the right and facing against PICHINCHA "volcano" which is like. TOTALLY LOST! I then heard him do a missed app. He was very low and lost. After that a 737 and a few other the same in different directions and all. I mean, I even see this during the day, pilos are very lost.

I hear a COPA pilot today argue very bad with a ATC saying he was facing a tottaly oposite direction which lead him into a hill near the outer marker, and he was very mad and blamed the ATC saying that this is very dangerous. He meant operating in such a dangerous terrain, as UIO, with high elevation, is dangerous, with out a LOC nor SA)">GS, even worse in marginal conditions...

I think this is also a test for the DAC of Ecuador….to act in a promptly manner; a #1 priority besides moving that A340 should be repairing of the damaged ILS antenna and this should be done A.SA.P. and not wait for the outcome of the investigation.
Later on when they establish “blame” -if applicable- they could ask for reimbursements but now they need to pay up, it’s for their own benefit.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-13 00:47:35 and read 37189 times.

So is the roadtunnel in use? If not, how much does it affect traffic?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iahmark
Posted 2007-11-13 00:59:03 and read 37201 times.

According to the city newspaper “el Comercio” :
Link only in Spanish:
http://www.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC....sp?id_noticia=150421&id_seccion=11


Here’s a quick summary:
A passenger says the flight was quiet and uneventful until the landing which was long and hard…didn’t sense any braking until they run out of the RNW; saw one of the engines with a little fire and smoke which was promptly put out by the fire trucks.

The director of the DAC says:

According to witnesses the aircraft touched down past the 1/3 of the RNW and it was at high speed and a hard touch down.
The landing gear was damaged due to the excessive braking that it caused the “fire plugs” on the tires to pop up due to the excessive heat (the brakes I presume).

There were people from the insurance agency on the scene yesterday as well as airport authorities which were evaluating the best way to remove the plane.

Some European company ( prob. the insurance or contracted by the insurance company) advised that there was a plane that came yesterday morning from the US with equipment to remove the plane, they mentioned inflatable airbags.

In this investigation they were people from the French & Spain committees of accident investigations as well as Airbus representatives…

[Edited 2007-11-13 01:02:56]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-13 01:05:51 and read 37127 times.

Stranger things have happened, but I find it hard to believe that the flight crew did not armed the thrust reversers. The cause of this accident will probably be a combination of factors. Winds, approach speeds, landing speeds, runway conditions, aircraft breaks and some others. I am speculating, yes. However, the flight crew not using the thrust reversers does seem a bit of a strecht to me.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-13 01:15:20 and read 37139 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 218):
Stranger things have happened, but I find it hard to believe that the flight crew did not armed the thrust reversers. The cause of this accident will probably be a combination of factors. Winds, approach speeds, landing speeds, runway conditions, aircraft breaks and some others. I am speculating, yes. However, the flight crew not using the thrust reversers does seem a bit of a strecht to me.

I would be very suprised if there was something wrong with the reversers mechanically. If they were deactivated , they would need to be deactivated in pairs, so 2 would be open and 2 closed. All 4 closed = they were not opened
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6
I leave a link for people to watch. For me the Air France crash and this Iberia crash have striking similarities.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wolflair
Posted 2007-11-13 01:39:34 and read 37023 times.



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 213):
Cost of repair vs. value of aircraft. If the former exceeds the latter, she's totalled. I'm glad everyone got out without any injuries.

Well, actually the formula would be

Cost of repair vs. insurance costs

Insurance costs are not only the value of the a/c minus the excess to be paid by Iberia, but also take into account the costs of removing the a/c, dismantling it and the potential profit from the spare parts that can be reused. Considering spare parts are potentially a few million (at least one engine plus lots of avionics, seats, IFE, etc) it's not so easy to say whether it will be w/o because the a/c is beyond economical repair.

Let's hope this bird goes back to the skies...

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 03:35:09 and read 36679 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 210):
Boeing and Airbus (and a handful of MRO's) are capable of doing this type of work in the field with site-built jigs and shoring. It's expensive, but if you're willing to spend the money there is almost no level of repair that can't be done on site.

The $$$ better include building a hangar as well, there aren't any to house the airplane. Ramp space is at a premium there. Maybe if they used the Air Force ramp on the north end of the field.

This is not a job to be done without adequately housing the airplane. The vertical stab and rudder are removed in these cases if the ass end is sticking out in the breeze. Working on the ramp in UIO is not pleasant.

On another note, all the arm-chair investigators come out and create a clusterfuck. The only thing that is a fact is that the airplane departed the runway and is damaged, that is it. Let the official investigators sort it out, and then you can work out your thread. All this speculation makes these threads way too long and sometimes not worth reading because of the junk people post int it.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FraT
Posted 2007-11-13 05:21:16 and read 36277 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 221):
On another note, all the arm-chair investigators come out and create a clusterfuck. The only thing that is a fact is that the airplane departed the runway and is damaged, that is it. Let the official investigators sort it out, and then you can work out your thread. All this speculation makes these threads way too long and sometimes not worth reading because of the junk people post int it.

What would this forum be without speculation?
For me speculations are totally OK as long as they are clearly marked as that or personel opinion.
To me it is really interesting to see different point of views and I hope this will be continued.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Atnight
Posted 2007-11-13 06:33:10 and read 36147 times.

News Update!

In a news release, Iberia has said in that they have brought equipment to move the aircraft from the crash site. They are just waiting for the authorization of the Ecuadorian DAC (FAA) to start moving the airplane with cranes. This gives me some hope that there may still be life for the aircraft after all.

Here is the complete newslink (in spanish)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 07:05:38 and read 35907 times.

There is no way that the reversers were not deployed, if not that plane would have been in some part of the city. The ground speed upon touchdown is quite high (due to the Airport's elevation) and therefore reversers are paramount in stopping the plane in Quito.

I would imagine that the pilot thought he would stop short of the grass and decided on putting the throttle in idle in order to save engine from any sort of contamination (as in the most of Airline manuals). So the idea that the reversers did not deploy its quite difficult to digest.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-13 07:59:00 and read 35764 times.

The question of the deployment of the thrust reversers continues to be an interesting one.
From the passenger account in reply 217, after the hard landing there was no apparent braking until the plane went off the runway. This adds to the suspicion that there was no RT. With the FDR we should know for sure, of course.

Would it be at all conceivable that at least some of thrust levers might have been, even if slightly, misplaced, as it seemed to have been the case in the TAM A320 crash at CGH, and a couple of reported incidents before that?

A good picture from El Comercio, that adds another perspective to this crash.
http://www.elcomercio.com/nv_images/fotos/2007/11/ec13_p_quito.jpg

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-13 08:02:57 and read 35856 times.

I have a question about the evacuation. We know from the excellent reporting of Airportmanager, the fire crew was quick in responding to the IB situation. Wouldn't the fire crew have been able relay advice to the cockpit crew and from them to the cabin crew? And on that thought, who would give the order to evaculate? I"m guessing the captain? Would he decide "all doors open" or would he say "wait for the stairs, no fire," etc?

Thanks!!

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 08:10:07 and read 35877 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 225):
The question of the deployment of the thrust reversers continues to be an interesting one.
From the passenger account in reply 217, after the hard landing there was no apparent braking until the plane went off the runway. This adds to the suspicion that there was no RT. With the FDR we should know for sure, of course.

A cousin of mine who is an aspiring airline pilot (and works for Airbus) has used the simulators and tried the approach into Quito. He tells me that there is no chance a plane would be able to land successfully without reversers, since the speed upon touchdown (ground speed) although IAS would be your normal 130-145 kts the ground speed its quite excessive and there is no way in the world you would stop without reversers. And although braking action is somewhat effective (depending the aircrafts weight), we must remember that you might just burn them and burn your tires if you use excessive braking. The A346 must have an auto braking system as many of the other modern airliners today, so I suppose braking was done upon touchdown, and I guess that reversers too, if not the plane would have been in someone's kitchen.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 08:13:57 and read 35872 times.



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 227):
He tells me that there is no chance a plane would be able to land successfully without reversers

I have landed in UIO with no reverse thrust. Brakes only. Granted, it was a 757, which makes your statement absurd.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 08:29:41 and read 35809 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 228):
I have landed in UIO with no reverse thrust. Brakes only. Granted, it was a 757, which makes your statement absurd.

Granted, you might be right then, the A340-600 did not need reversers, then that's why it runoff the runway?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 08:40:32 and read 35744 times.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 229):

You figured it all out. Type up your report and submit it to the DAC and the Spanish authorities.

BTW, send your resume to the NTSB, they can save on travel cost by emailing you accident photos.

[Edited 2007-11-13 08:41:28]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 08:43:49 and read 35788 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 230):

My humble opinion is that reversers are a must, that's all, check this video out

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...ne_Iberia_Aviation_Video-9163.html

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-13 08:45:39 and read 35767 times.



Quoting Iahmark (Reply 215):
I think this is also a test for the DAC of Ecuador….to act in a promptly manner; a #1 priority besides moving that A340 should be repairing of the damaged ILS antenna and this should be done A.SA.P. and not wait for the outcome of the investigation.

Well, they cant fix it if the4y dont remove the airplane, so that it, one thing leads to an other

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 216):
So is the roadtunnel in use? If not, how much does it affect traffic?

Tunnel is open,, as you see in the pics I psoted yessterda. Doesnt affect traffic that much but it is a great help to keep it open.

Quoting Atnight (Reply 223):
In a news release, Iberia has said in that they have brought equipment to move the aircraft from the crash site. They are just waiting for the authorization of the Ecuadorian DAC (FAA) to start moving the airplane with cranes. This gives me some hope that there may still be life for the aircraft after all.

They brough equiptment to remove the plane, but DGAC doesnt specify whether theyll remove it in piecess, or all in one.

Last news, they say that today or tomorrow they could do their first attempt to remove the aircraft ione piece with numerous cranes. Now....... they said that the biggest chance is it to be removed to be scrappeed in FAE. A346 if removed to day or tomorrow, will be put in FAE. Still rumors that It will be scrapped. They say, if they get the chance to scrap it in present position, theyll bo it, its much easier.

I gotta go and see whats going on and before to the dentist!! AHHHHHH! Ill be back

Stefano Rota

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 08:58:57 and read 35669 times.



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 231):

Just another arm-chair expert.

Are you a qualified transport category pilot?

No? You are not qualified to make that determination.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-13 09:02:26 and read 35616 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 228):
I have landed in UIO with no reverse thrust. Brakes only. Granted, it was a 757, which makes your statement absurd.

so u selected reverse idle or not??did u have a dry runway or not??

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-13 09:02:37 and read 35632 times.



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 227):

Of course we have to take the witness accounts with a pinch of salt. I don't swallow the idea that there was no braking at all. We have already heard from the investigation team where they point at excessive wheel braking. But did the TRs deploy? and if not, why not. I just wanted to mention previous precedents, most notably the TAM A320 at CGH.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-13 09:05:23 and read 35598 times.

Won't a great many of these questions about what did/didn't happen during the landing be answered by the black box? Also Voice recorder? Will they release that info in UIO as does happen in the states?

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 09:08:33 and read 35598 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 233):
Just another arm-chair expert.

Are you a qualified transport category pilot?

No? You are not qualified to make that determination.

Then I guess everyone here in this thread minus you are not entitled to an opinion?

Then we should make this thread only available for those who are pilots and experts as yourself.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 09:38:34 and read 35473 times.



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 237):

You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express if you figured this all out.

What is ticking me off is the conjecture of how you can analyze an accident sequence from a video and tell me that it is not possible to land without using reverse thrust. Sometimes it is better to reserve your opinion just because your cousin farts around with flight sims and he said so...


See where I am coming from?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 09:46:30 and read 35437 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 236):
Won't a great many of these questions about what did/didn't happen during the landing be answered by the black box? Also Voice recorder? Will they release that info in UIO as does happen in the states?

Alot of information will come from the DFDR and the VR. I don't know how the DAC operates, they will probably have the Spanish Civil Av authority assisting them as well as Airbus.

They may issue a preliminary findings report, but that may not be for some time in the near future.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-13 09:54:09 and read 35420 times.

On our positioning home this morning LHR-MAN, in the 40 minutes, two of us tried to come up with some sort of rational reasoning from what we all already know........

By all accounts, considering the airfield elevation and the fact there was a 5 - 10 kt tailwind, groundspeed will have been in the region of 180kts+ against an IAS of about 141kts with a ballpark landing weight, at the point of touchdown.

There are endless possibilities to throw in the pot. It was wet, it was dusk, perhaps they flared too early with the tailwind and floated, perhaps they were slightly disorientated by the bad viz/rain/dusk/lights, add to that the high speed and already we're approaching high risk.

So, they possibly land long and fast. I am sure reverse thrust will have been selected as soon as the mains kissed the tarmac.

All we can do is conject about the next 30 seconds. It's been a lousy approach and a fast landing in bad conditions, some reports say the aircraft was put down late and heavily, bursting tyres. They'll quickly realise they are running out of runway, they step on the brakes instinctively, at which point (judging by the pictures of the tyres), either they start to aquaplane or the antiskid fails and braking is massively diminished on the wet runway. It becomes clear they will be stopping beyond the runway end, one of them looks at the ASI which shows a speed much slower than they are actually travelling at, so they misguidedly return the throttles to idle either 1/ in the belief their use is no longer effective or 2/ to avoid potentially writing off all 4 engines from what they might ingest. With high speed and little or no braking to reduce the momentum, the aircraft goes crashing through the localiser antenna for 35, sinking into the soft earth which ultimately brings the stricken aircraft to a halt with the resultant damage to undercarriage, engines et al.

I can only presume that once they had come to a stop, the captain believed he had nothing more serious than a runway overrun on his hands and that he had no comprehension of the extent of damage. I can't think of any other reason why a full shut down and immediate evacuation would not have been initialised......although, having seen the video clip of him opening the window and looking back, we both said his first words were probably "Oh, crap!"

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 09:56:53 and read 35382 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 238):
See where I am coming from?

No I don't, basically you narrowed it down the same way I narrowed it down, the only thing is because you are a pilot and an expert, my observations in the subject are to be undermined by your expertise.

You said that you didn't use reversers on a 757, which is quite a less heavier aircraft from an A3460, and I said that in order to stop the plane usage of reversers is a must. Both were opinions and apparently yours is more of a fact because you stated having done it in real life and I even if I show you a video on which an A340 did use the reversers, and also based on my cousin said (getting his commercial pilot's license presently) based on his experiences landing an A340 at SEQU with an Airbus simulator.

If you really dislike the opinions of those people who are inferior to you in matters involving aviation, I then suppose you are in the wrong forum, for we are here to learn and you appear to have learnt very much and don't need to. Therefore instead of saying that the comments are absurd and we should reserve our opinions, perhaps you might instead of bashing against us at least add a bit of professionalism to the subject and be a bit tolerant of others people's views. Then I might retract and say, "perhaps you are right", which I am always open to change the way I think in subjects as this in which I haven't the same capacity.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-13 09:59:43 and read 35374 times.

Can we get away from the willy waving contest and get back on track; it would be a shame to see it locked by the Mods.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-13 10:02:47 and read 35359 times.

752,

It is annoying when people pull things from their ass. And backing it up with comments because your cousin is playing with the Airbi flight sims don't add up to a beer fart in a whirlwind.

This is going on way too long.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2007-11-13 10:04:33 and read 35342 times.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 243):
It is annoying when people pull things from their ass. And backing it up with comments because your cousin is playing with the Airbi flight sims don't add up to a beer fart in a whirlwind.

If you take a look at BlueShamu330s reply 240, you might see from where I and my cousin coming from.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-13 11:44:52 and read 35006 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 236):
Won't a great many of these questions about what did/didn't happen during the landing be answered by the black box? Also Voice recorder? Will they release that info in UIO as does happen in the states?

I was told a few mins ago the preliminary data will be exposed in 6months and the final in 1 year. So its 1 year until we get the cause of this incident!! I find it lots of time I mean, 1 year!!??

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 242):
Can we get away from the willy waving contest and get back on track; it would be a shame to see it locked by the Mods.

Yeah this topic is doing good, and please, if you guys wanna keep on sissying about wahtaever, exchange emails and fight over MSN or something, OK?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-13 11:58:33 and read 35011 times.



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 245):
I was told a few mins ago the preliminary data will be exposed in 6months and the final in 1 year.

Yeah, just read the same in Ecuadorian newspapers.

Also read that the engines have been checked by the technical team. Engines 1 and 2 didn't work (normal, I would say) while engines 3 and 4 were ok (interesting).

This is the link:

http://www.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC....sp?id_seccion=11&id_noticia=150642


Saludos.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-13 12:19:17 and read 34840 times.



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 245):
I was told a few mins ago the preliminary data will be exposed in 6months and the final in 1 year. So its 1 year until we get the cause of this incident!! I find it lots of time I mean, 1 year!!??

Seems a long time doesn't it? But, then again, it will be interesting to see what they mean by "preliminary" and what civil/criminal/other concerns that they may wish to file.

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-13 12:28:40 and read 34796 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 245):
I was told a few mins ago the preliminary data will be exposed in 6months and the final in 1 year. So its 1 year until we get the cause of this incident!! I find it lots of time I mean, 1 year!!??

Sure, one thing is the final report, but I am sure the findings from the FDR and VDR, the video that shows the touch down, and generally a very good idea of what caused this crash will be made public much earlier than that. Within days, I would think.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 246):
Also read that the engines have been checked by the technical team. Engines 1 and 2 didn't work (normal, I would say) while engines 3 and 4 were ok (interesting).

At least 2 engines that IB can add to its spare stock then, maybe after a little de-soiling.

[Edited 2007-11-13 12:31:43]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FAEDC3
Posted 2007-11-13 12:34:31 and read 34790 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 240):
we both said his first words were probably "Oh, crap!"

That is a great reconstruction Shamu.. I would just have to disagree on the pilot´s exclamation, I say it was "uy carajo"...
 Smile

Anyway, I think that the assertion made by airportmanager is quite clear, the wait for the report will be loooong, its a shame we will have to wait so much, meanwhile I believe it is just unfair to blame it on the pilots, as we don´t know all the facts... I heard that they (pilots) had spoken to the officials or investigators already? Their story should be something to be heard.... eventhough I know it will not be realeased in any way...

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2007-11-13 13:03:26 and read 34669 times.

Miamiair, please be nice and stop posting. It is really annoying.

Stefano said the report will be released in one year, so basically what you are saying is that we should wait 1 year. So we can close this thread and open it again in a year, right?

This is an aviation forum. After an accident, it is a natural thing that everybody throws in their opinion. There have been very insightful thoughts in this thread. I've read all of this thread with great interest, MINUS anything you have posted. Everybody else (and I believe that's without any exceptions) feels the same way. Then you come in and whine about how unprofessional our explanations are.

Hello! We're not aviation experts! We are enthusiasts, and we come to this place for exactly that reason. Since you seem to be the only one who has a problem with this, then why do you keep reading this thread?

If you can't handle it, don't look at it. Do us a favor.

Soren  santahat 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-13 13:04:04 and read 34851 times.



Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 249):
I say it was "uy carajo"...

Or:

'Chucha, madre!'
'Mierda!'

etc.

It must certainly be hard on the pilots when they have a few seconds to realize that they WILL crash. That's got to be tough.

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 249):
the wait for the report will be loooong

That is a typical wait for an accident report.

IIRC, the pilots only have a few seconds to determine whether to continue the landing roll or not, and a few seconds to gather whatever information necessary from their instruments to do so. Many times they get it right, but unfortunately when they get it wrong, the accident is blamed on 'pilot error'. I almost have no doubt that in the end it will be blamed on the pilots, but in the blame game it is forgotten how quick their decision had to be made with the information at hand.

Reminds me of the Spantax DC-10 that crashed after a blown tire. The pilots only had a few seconds to figure out what they should do with the information they had on hand. They chose the wrong way and the plane crashed.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Skibum9
Posted 2007-11-13 15:12:24 and read 34481 times.

What a week in Ecuador

Now look what happened today.....

Jet Makes Emergency Landing in Ecuador
Tuesday November 13, 3:31 pm ET
American Airlines Plane From Miami Makes Emergency Landing in Ecuador


QUITO, Ecuador (AP) -- An American Airlines jetliner flying from Miami to Peru with 252 passengers aboard made an emergency landing in Ecuador on Tuesday after the pilot smelled smoke in the cockpit, an official said.
Duncan Patterson, American Airlines' sales manager in Ecuador told The Associated Press that it was a false alarm. No injuries were reported.

The plane was en route from Miami to Lima, Peru, when it landed in the port city of Guayaquil.

"Even though there are costs and complications for the passengers, something we will never argue about is the issue of security," Patterson said. "We will always respect the pilots' decisions."

Patterson called it a "minor" incident.

American Airlines, the largest U.S. airline, is run by AMR Corp.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BHMBAGLOCK
Posted 2007-11-13 15:37:12 and read 34437 times.



Quoting Trintocan (Reply 129):
Above all, credit to the crew for saving the lives of all 333 on board this plane

I'd hold off on that until the incident report comes out, they're probably the cause of the problem than the solution.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 186):
In my opinion, by not beginning an immediate evacuation, the crew took the chance of a fire starting and the results COULD have been disastrous.

Considering how well the A340s in Candada and France burned, you might have a point.

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 209):
UIO is a great airport that of course has its downsides and difficulties, but it would be horrible to see all this beautiful widebodies to disappear as AF or LH did, only to be left with small 320 and regional airliners...

Not a chance, the 747 will continue flying there if nothing else and I'd bet on 787 in the not so distant future as well.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 250):
Miamiair, please be nice and stop posting. It is really annoying.

Victor is the only person posting in this thread with both deep knowledge of airframe repair and the operating conditions at UIO for such work. It's ludicrous to ask him to butt out as unlike many others posting here, he does know WTF he's talking about on all levels.

The little pissing match with B752fanatic basically comes down to Victor calling him on a very broad and incorrect statement:

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 227):
there is no chance a plane would be able to land successfully without reversers,

He didn't qualify this statement to apply only to A346 or A346 under wet conditions, particular ranges of GW, etc., he made a very broad and patently incorrect statement and Victor correct him. If he'd simply accepted the correction and moved on there wouldn't be any problem. Like Victor, I've been aboard aircraft landing at UIO w/o thrust reversers.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 251):
It must certainly be hard on the pilots when they have a few seconds to realize that they WILL crash. That's got to be tough.

You don't have to be a pilot for that realization to suck big.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-13 15:44:26 and read 34467 times.



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 246):
Also read that the engines have been checked by the technical team. Engines 1 and 2 didn't work (normal, I would say) while engines 3 and 4 were ok (interesting).

Yeah they said engine one and two today were ignored but 3 and 4 were being inspected, like open etc. So seems like 3 and 4 are still usable, better off.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 248):
Sure, one thing is the final report, but I am sure the findings from the FDR and VDR, the video that shows the touch down, and generally a very good idea of what caused this crash will be made public much earlier than that. Within days, I would think.

I have been told that there is one video of the landing of the A346!! It was taken with securuty cams from UIO! Darn it, I didnt see it, it would be great if someone would post it up on youtube or something. Never the less, yeah, its amazing, but 1 year might fly by jsut like this year is flying by! haha I do certainly want to hear the reasons or cause of this accident from a DGAC person atleast to understand beeter, and get more facts and proof once the investigations, 1 year later, are finished.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 252):
What a week in Ecuador

Damn, Really sounds like a joke for aviation. First the Cessna, then the A346 and this AA (767?) which luckily didnt have any thing as bad as IB A346....

I havent found out anything n ew so far, so thats it for now!!

Stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-13 15:59:12 and read 34358 times.

So what happens to the pilots? Where are they now? Are they allowed to return to Madrid? Are they held in Ecuador? And upon return to Madrid, does Iberia fire them? takes them off the A346 roster?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-13 16:10:12 and read 34312 times.



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 253):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 251):
It must certainly be hard on the pilots when they have a few seconds to realize that they WILL crash. That's got to be tough.

You don't have to be a pilot for that realization to suck big.

But I don't think the passengers knew till it happened, and the pilots did have a few seconds to realize it.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-14 00:28:13 and read 33717 times.

Question: When does the DFDR and CVR stop recording on this aircraft?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-14 00:39:56 and read 33719 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 255):
So what happens to the pilots? Where are they now? Are they allowed to return to Madrid? Are they held in Ecuador? And upon return to Madrid, does Iberia fire them? takes them off the A346 roster?

Without knowing for certain, I would assume they are still in Ecuador, pending a decision as to whether any charges are to be brought against them (hopefully not); they will then be free to go home. Practice in this area varies from airline to airline, but I would expect that they are suspended from duty until the full report is issued. If this finds that they were at fault, then they probably would be fired; if not, they would be returned to line. (This would apply to the two flying pilots, not the reserve pilot, whom I would think would be free to go back and return to line flying?).

The only complication is that if litigation is brought against IB by passengers, or if IB challenges the Ecuadorian accident report (the Spanish authorities will do their own), it would harm their case if they had fired the crew as a result of the accident report - i.e. they accepted that the accident was their crews' fault (and they were vicariously liable).

Any further reports on efforts to move the aircraft? Is it generally accepted now that it's a W/O?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wolflair
Posted 2007-11-14 01:51:50 and read 33527 times.



Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 245):
I was told a few mins ago the preliminary data will be exposed in 6months and the final in 1 year. So its 1 year until we get the cause of this incident!! I find it lots of time I mean, 1 year!!??

This time is normal. I am sure they will analyse the DFDR and CVR but there will be a throughout inspection of the undercarriage, the runway, weather reports, CCTV cameras, witnesses accounts, etc. etc. Only the inspection of the undercarriage and its components should take a few months to be completed. Additionally, investigators also consider a "worst case scenario", where evidence from different sources contradict each other into pointing out a probable cause of crash (and in this event more evidence would need to be collected and analysed).

A lot of questions need to be answered, even if there is enough information available in the next days to identify a probable cause.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 258):
Practice in this area varies from airline to airline, but I would expect that they are suspended from duty until the full report is issued. If this finds that they were at fault, then they probably would be fired; if not, they would be returned to line.

Whilst this is true, there are many cases where authorities have pointed at pilot's error as the cause of the crash, just to be challenged by the pilot's unions, therefore delaying the final report until most parties agree.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-14 03:29:32 and read 33305 times.



Quoting Wirelock (Reply 257):
Question: When does the DFDR and CVR stop recording on this aircraft?

The CVR is at least 30minutes. If the CVR is of the newer version then it is 2 hours.

The DFDR is at least 25 hours and records at least 88 parameters.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Zeke
Posted 2007-11-14 03:44:35 and read 33294 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 225):
From the passenger account in reply 217, after the hard landing there was no apparent braking until the plane went off the runway. This adds to the suspicion that there was no RT. With the FDR we should know for sure, of course.

Landing performance is predicated on the use of no reverse for every jet that I know of, I often use just idle reverse for landings. Using full reverse does not reduce landing distance is autobrake is used. Autobrake is a preprogrammed deceleration rate on the A340, on the A340-500/600 is it slightly different to the earlier models and the A330.

The rates of deceleration on the A340NG are as follows : LO - 1.8 m/s^2, 2 - 2.2 m/s^2, 3 3 - 2.6 m/s^2, 4 - 3.0 m/s^2, and HI - 3.5 m/s^2.

If one uses reverse, the aircraft will still decelerate at the selected braking rate ( LO, 2, 3, 4, HI), all that happens is the brake pressure is modulated by the autobrake to achieve the same deceleration rate.

For a landing/autobrake to work as designed, the crew needs to get the aircraft on the ground, in the touch down zone, on speed, and at a reasonable rate of descent.

The A340NG can be landed safely at the planned landing weight that this flight was at, at that airport without the use of reverse.

Quoting Atnight (Reply 223):
They are just waiting for the authorization of the Ecuadorian DAC (FAA) to start moving the airplane with cranes. This gives me some hope that there may still be life for the aircraft after all.

Airbus already has a done a lot of work for unforeseen events like this, back in 2003 for the A340NG they published the "A340-500/-600 Aircraft Recovery Manual". Airbus publish a similar manual for all types produced. Inside the manual contains the procedure for recovering the aircraft from all types of events, this accident is is just one of teh type of scenarios listed, it has a step by step procedure on how to recover the aircraft.

The recovery procedure would be along these lines :

1. SURVEY
Aircraft Condition :
Recover or salvage
Attitude
Landing gear
Structure
Damaged components
Missing components
Unserviceable components
Cargo and fuel

Site :
Terrain
Soil

Characteristics :
Access routes

Weather :
Current
Forecast

Equipment Availibility :
Site
Preparation
Leveling
Lifting
Moving
Stabilizing

Manpower Availability :
Number
Skills

Environmental Issues :
Fluid spills
List of Hazardous Material


2. PLAN
Quick Recovery :
Important
Not important

Weight and Balance :
Calculate weight of fuel and cargo
Calculate CG

Plan Weight Reduction :
Unload cargo
Defuel
Remove major components

Recovery Plan :
Reduce weight
Prepare site
Level
Lift
Stabilize
Move

Equipment and Manpower required

Schedule Secondary Damage : –
Accepted, to reduce recovery time


3. PREPARE
Monitor and Record :
Loads
Actions performed

Assemble Equipment and Manpower Remove Weight :
Unload cargo
Defuel
Remove major components

Prepare Site :
Clear
Excavate
Fill
Stabilize

Prepare Route :
Clear
Excavate
Fill
Stabilize


4. RECOVER
Monitor and Record :
Loads
Actions performed

Stabilize :
Tether
Cables
Jacks
Shoring

Level/Lift :
Jacks
Airbags
Cranes

Debogging Move :
Tow on gear
Move on suitable ground equipment trailer

5. REPORT
Report to Maintenance Team :
Loads
Actions performed

As you can see, a lot of what needs to be done is by way of preparation, and given most airlines do not experience this type of event, they need to act cautiously in a deliberate fashion to recover the aircraft without causing further damage, assemble appropriate staff, obtain equipment, and gain necessary permissions.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 257):
Question: When does the DFDR and CVR stop recording on this aircraft?

5 minutes after the last engine is shut down, it contains the last 25 hrs of data.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Vega9000
Posted 2007-11-14 05:28:22 and read 33035 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
5 minutes after the last engine is shut down, it contains the last 25 hrs of data.

 Confused Really? Does that mean that if all engines stop midflight (say due to a fuel problem ) the recording stops at that point?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-14 05:31:50 and read 33037 times.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
Using full reverse does not reduce landing distance is autobrake is used

Thanks for the explanation. Do you think that (in a theoretical situation) where the the approach is less than ideal, a bit too fast and a touch down a bit too far into the runway, the crew's most likely course of action would be to use full reverse thrust if a go around is discarded? As a layman, it seems to me that to hope that spoilers and wheel braking alone will bring the plane to a stop in time in such a (again, theoretical) situation would be barmy.

[Edited 2007-11-14 05:33:28]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Zeke
Posted 2007-11-14 05:44:58 and read 33007 times.



Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 262):
Does that mean that if all engines stop midflight (say due to a fuel problem ) the recording stops at that point?

I have not seen the detailed logic for it for some time, but I think the fuel selectors would need to be off, as well as the FADEC be powered off, for it to think the engines are not running. A windmilling engine can still produced hydraulic pressure and electricity.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 263):
Do you think that (in a theoretical situation) where the the approach is less than ideal, a bit too fast and a touch down a bit too far into the runway, the crew's most likely course of action would be to use full reverse thrust if a go around is discarded?

The normal procedure for an unstabilised approach as you are describing is to go around, even if the wheels have touched.

If I was running out of runway, I would use any and all means of stopping, including full reverse, full manual braking and even the park brake if necessary.

It is still early to say what the reasons were, needless to say, Airbus generally send out a telex to all operators fairly swiftly as soon as something factual is known

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2007-11-14 05:57:24 and read 32956 times.



Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 262):
Does that mean that if all engines stop midflight (say due to a fuel problem ) the recording stops at that point?

From the FAR:

The JAA or EASA should be the same.

(d) Each cockpit voice recorder must be installed so that—

(1) It receives its electric power from the bus that provides the maximum reliability for operation of the cockpit voice recorder without jeopardizing service to essential or emergency loads;

(2) There is an automatic means to simultaneously stop the recorder and prevent each erasure feature from functioning, within 10 minutes after crash impact; and

(3) There is an aural or visual means for preflight checking of the recorder for proper operation.

It is powered by the AC system (767).

Can only be erased on the ground if AC power is available and the parking break is set.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2007-11-14 06:12:03 and read 32944 times.

So the fuselage has been partly painted white erasing Iberia markings, can any confirm this?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-14 09:59:46 and read 32497 times.

Any more news on this? Have efforts begun to move it? Insurance assessment?

Maybe it might be worth considering a second thread for it, as we've now reached 267.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-14 12:07:10 and read 32146 times.

I know it's born of necessity, given that it's the city's contact with the rest of the world, but I can't think of anywhere else that this would be allowed (see first photo on Iahmark's link); if any other aircraft has an accident or has to abort its takeoff, it's straight into the back of 'JOH.

Remember the CAL 747-400 at HKG in 11/93; they had to blow its tail off because it posed an obstruction; CAL was none too pleased, but the aircraft was a goner anyway, because of the salt water.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FAEDC3
Posted 2007-11-14 12:23:26 and read 32101 times.

Thanks Zeke.... great insiders view info!!

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 254):
have been told that there is one video of the landing of the A346!! It was taken with securuty cams from UIO!

I would of thought that the existence of a video was a given since the onboard cameras should of had taped the whole thing. Now watching the accident form an outside view would be even better! but we all know the quality on the security cams is always awful.

Something that just stroke my mind: I had flown IB´s 346 many times to LIM or UIO the cam is always available to see during the flight, and the landing can be seen on the screens as well, except on J seat that has to fold and close the PTV. Now, what about the passengers watching the video during landing? It would of been horrible to see it coming... don´t you think?

Does anybody think that either IB or the investigators would release the onboard camera video??

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-14 12:46:11 and read 32014 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 269):
given that it's the city's contact with the rest of the world, but I can't think of anywhere else that this would be allowed

Waaay back in 1983, we had a Caravelle crash land in GYE. The airplane was dismantled on the side of the runway. There was even a picture of an Eastern L-1011 taxying right by it.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: A342
Posted 2007-11-14 13:29:19 and read 31808 times.

Something smells fishy here. How can they say "We'll release the final report in one year"? What if they won't determine the cause of the accident in one year? Are they going to present a report that basically says "We haven't found out why it happened yet, and thus the investigation has come to an end"?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
Landing performance is predicated on the use of no reverse for every jet that I know of,

 checkmark  Some jets don't even have reversers.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 269):
but the aircraft was a goner anyway, because of the salt water.

Once an AF 744 overran the rwy in PPT and ended up in saltwater, sustaining substantial damage. Nonetheless, it was repaired. Unfortunately, I can't find the pics any more.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-14 13:33:42 and read 31785 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 269):
I know it's born of necessity, given that it's the city's contact with the rest of the world, but I can't think of anywhere else that this would be allowed (see first photo on Iahmark's link); if any other aircraft has an accident or has to abort its takeoff, it's straight into the back of 'JOH.

Yup, just what I raised way earlier in this thread, but got flamed for making the observation.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-14 13:47:35 and read 31725 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 272):
Something smells fishy here. How can they say "We'll release the final report in one year"? What if they won't determine the cause of the accident in one year? Are they going to present a report that basically says "We haven't found out why it happened yet, and thus the investigation has come to an end"?

They don't want to be rushed ... they will collate all of the information and records and they will be very thorough; I doubt very much, given the quality of FDR and CVR recordings on an aircraft like the A340, not to mention the other factors, such as weather data and the fact that the aircraft wasn't burned, that they would come out with a report that doesn't assign causes and contributory factors. Given the importance to airlines of building confidence in operations into UIO, it's all the more important that the report is thorough and as complete as can be; airlines and the Ecuadorian CAA will probably base new procedures and recommendations on the report's findings.

I'd be surprised if it actually took a full year to complete, but they are quite right not to be rushed into coming out with their findings.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ADent
Posted 2007-11-14 14:30:14 and read 31607 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
Landing performance is predicated on the use of no reverse for every jet that I know of, I often use just idle reverse for landings. Using full reverse does not reduce landing distance is autobrake is used. Autobrake is a preprogrammed deceleration rate on the A340, on the A340-500/600 is it slightly different to the earlier models and the A330.

Wrong. The on board performance calculator used by WN on its 737s assumes thrust reversers. The pilots assumed no thrust reversers were used in the calculations and that they would give extra margin. They applied them late and went thru the fence at MDW.

Quote:
The pilots thought their landing data computer gave them information for brakes only. Since this is the way landing performance has been calculated on every jet I have ever flown, I would have made the same assumption.

I, like most pilots, only learned that Boeing and Southwest had been allowed to include reverse thrust in landing data performance charts after the MDW accident. [snip]

Had the Southwest crew known of this change, they would have had multiple chances to avoid this accident. The NTSB report indicates the crew thought the reversers would give them an extra margin of safety above their calculated stopping performance.

Excerpt from Letter to AvWk by Jon Dudeck http://www.aviationnow.com/search/Av.../29/AW_10_29_2007_p10-14813-01.xml

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Icaro
Posted 2007-11-14 14:43:26 and read 31559 times.



Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 270):
Does anybody think that either IB or the investigators would release the onboard camera video??

I don't think that the camera is recorded, it just live.
And from a safety perspective I think that it is better to watch the cam and see what is coming, so you can brace.
Also the crew get a better view of the outside to evaluate whether to open their door or not.
Just my opinion.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Cubastar
Posted 2007-11-14 14:54:28 and read 31516 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
Landing performance is predicated on the use of no reverse for every jet that I know of,



Quoting ADent (Reply 275):
Wrong. The on board performance calculator used by WN on its 737s assumes thrust reversers.

I believe what Zeke was saying is correct. The manufacturer and the FAA (or other certification organization) obtain and publish all criteria obtained in testing and the published landing distances are predicated with no reverse thrust.

Adent, I'm sure that the Onboard Performance Calculators do assume use of thrust reversers and the runway requirements are adjusted accordingly. I think that you have perhaps misunderstood Zeke's post.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-14 16:15:54 and read 31355 times.

I have a question regarding the evacuation. If you are inside the plane after it overruns the runway, comes to a stop after shudders, crashes, big noise and at a weird angle. And you as a passenger, on your own, decide to open the emergency exit, do you get prosecuted? Or another way to look at this is, how do you keep 350 people inside the plane from not getting out on their own?

Also, who initiated the evac on the AF 343 at Toronto, and why was it so successful?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2007-11-14 16:38:03 and read 31853 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 272):
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 269):
but the aircraft was a goner anyway, because of the salt water.


Once an AF 744 overran the rwy in PPT and ended up in saltwater, sustaining substantial damage. Nonetheless, it was repaired. Unfortunately, I can't find the pics any more.

Numerous photos of that incident here:
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-gita/2.shtml

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930912-1

And a fairly recent photo of the aircraft involved:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chris Starnes

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Zeke
Posted 2007-11-14 17:36:05 and read 31626 times.



Quoting ADent (Reply 275):

Wrong. The on board performance calculator used by WN on its 737s assumes thrust reversers. The pilots assumed no thrust reversers were used in the calculations and that they would give extra margin. They applied them late and went thru the fence at MDW.

I am not that familiar with the Boeing Laptop Tool, except to say is has contributed to a number of accidents like the one you mentioned, and the 747 takeoff at Halifax. From memeory the runway for that 737 accident was also contaminated.

This is specifically about the A340, and Airbus aircraft which I am more familiar with, also Iberia is not a US airline, it does not follow US specific rules like FAR 91.

The landing performance is determined from JAR/FAR 25.125, it does not say that reverser need to be considered, Airbus does consider them on a contaminated runways, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

Quote:
Sec. 25.125 Landing.

(a) The horizontal distance necessary to land and to come to a complete
stop (or to a speed of approximately 3 knots for water landings) from a point
50 feet above the landing surface must be determined (for standard
temperatures, at each weight, altitude, and wind within the operational
limits established by the applicant for the airplane) as follows:
(1) The airplane must be in the landing configuration.
(2) A stabilized approach, with a calibrated airspeed of not less than
1.3 VS, must be maintained down to the 50 foot height.
(3) Changes in configuration, power or thrust, and speed, must be made in
accordance with the established procedures for service operation.
(4) The landing must be made without excessive vertical acceleration,
tendency to bounce, nose over, ground loop, porpoise, or water loop.
(5) The landings may not require exceptional piloting skill or alertness.
(b) For landplanes and amphibians, the landing distance on land must be
determined on a level, smooth, dry, hard-surfaced runway. In addition--
(1) The pressures on the wheel braking systems may not exceed those
specified by the brake manufacturer;
(2) The brakes may not be used so as to cause excessive wear of brakes or
tires; and
(3) Means other than wheel brakes may be used if that means--
(i) Is safe and reliable;
(ii) Is used so that consistent results can be expected in service; and
(iii) Is such that exceptional skill is not required to control the
airplane.
(c) For seaplanes and amphibians, the landing distance on water must be
determined on smooth water.
(d) For skiplanes, the landing distance on snow must be determined on
smooth, dry, snow.
(e) The landing distance data must include correction factors for not more
than 50 percent of the nominal wind components along the landing path
opposite to the direction of landing, and not less than 150 percent of the
nominal wind components along the landing path in the direction of landing.
(f) If any device is used that depends on the operation of any engine, and
if the landing distance would be noticeably increased when a landing is made
with that engine inoperative, the landing distance must be determined with
that engine inoperative unless the use of compensating means will result in a
landing distance not more than that with each engine operating.

So under JAR/FAR 25.125, the landing distance is the horizontal distance necessary to land and to come to a complete stop from a point 50 ft above the landing surface must be determined (for standard temperatures, at each weight, altitude and wind within the operational limits established by the applicant for the aeroplane) as follows:
* The aeroplane must be in the landing configuration
* A stabilized approach, with a calibrated airspeed of VLS must be maintained down to the 50 ft.

During airplane certification, the actual landing distance is demonstrated as follows:

It is the distance measured between a point 50 feet above the runway threshold, and the point where the aircraft comes to a complete stop.

To determine this actual landing distance, several conditions must be achieved:
* Standard temperature
* Landing configuration
* Stabilized approach at VLS (or VMCL whichever is greater) for the configuration for manual landing.
* Non excessive vertical acceleration
* Determination on a level, smooth, dry, hard-surfaced runway
* Acceptable pressures on the wheel braking systems
* Braking Means other than wheel brakes: Spoilers, reversers (except on dry runway), can be used when they are safe and reliable. Actual landing distance is also certified with degraded braking means (spoiler inoperative, one brake inoperative)

Actual Landing Distances are certified on dry runways for all Airbus aircraft, certified on contaminated and icy runways for all fly-by-wire aircraft and published (for information) for wet.

Demonstrated landing distances will not account for reversers on dry runways. The reverse thrust influence may be considered on contaminated runways.

On dry runways, landing distances are demonstrated with standard temperatures, according to JAR/FAR 25. However, on contaminated runways, Airbus decided to take into account the influence of temperature on landing distance demonstration. This choice ensures added safety as it gives a conservative ALD. Landing distance data must include correction factors for no more than 50% of the nominal wind components along the landing path opposite to the landing direction, and no less than 150% of the nominal wind components along the landing path in the landing direction. This is already taken into account in published figures and corrections.

Quoting A342 (Reply 272):

Once an AF 744 overran the rwy in PPT and ended up in saltwater, sustaining substantial damage. Nonetheless, it was repaired. Unfortunately, I can't find the pics any more.

Some pics

http://www.aviationpics.de/prev/af01.jpg
http://www.aviationpics.de/prev/af02.jpg
http://www.aviationpics.de/prev/af04.jpg

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2007-11-14 17:49:58 and read 31477 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 256):
If this finds that they were at fault, then they probably would be fired;

IB must need good reasons for that. Keep in mind that the pilots are also on board and their lives are also exposed.

If the pilots did make a mistake, there is a good chance that others might have done the same mistake before and were unnoticed because everything was eventually fine. In other words there is a chance that somebody above them at training centres is not doing things right either.

There are always causes to mistakes, this is why investigations always take so long. Lots of things to track down. A year is not surprising.

Of course, when pilots have the airplane flown by their son or fly drunk, that's another story!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-14 18:13:31 and read 31453 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 210):
To the layman, it looks like, well, jack the plane up, get some new wheels, pylons and engines, and you're good to go. The main part of the aircraft (the fuselage) looks unscratched, so how come most of you feel that this is a write-off?

There have been some claims that the wing box is cracked. If so, that could drive a write-off when combined with the other difficulties of splicing or re-skinning the wing on site.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 255):
When does the DFDR and CVR stop recording on this aircraft?

When the bus powering them shuts down. In a crash situation, that should be within 30-60 seconds of the event.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 258):
The CVR is at least 30minutes. If the CVR is of the newer version then it is 2 hours.

The DFDR is at least 25 hours and records at least 88 parameters.

I think the question was when the DFDR/CVR stop recording, not how much data they hold.

Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 260):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 261):
5 minutes after the last engine is shut down, it contains the last 25 hrs of data.

Confused Really? Does that mean that if all engines stop midflight (say due to a fuel problem ) the recording stops at that point?

No, because you should still have power (APU + RAT + battery). If you loose power, the CVR/DFDR will shut down.

Quoting ADent (Reply 272):
The on board performance calculator used by WN on its 737s assumes thrust reversers. The pilots assumed no thrust reversers were used in the calculations and that they would give extra margin.

*Certified* landing distances are always calculated without reverse thrust. Actual landing distances can be calculated anyway the operators wants to (and has been approved to do). In WN's case, they were working with a program designed to predict actual landing distance that assumed the use of reverse thrust. Real world performance is almost always going to be different than certified performance.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Airportmanager
Posted 2007-11-14 20:27:41 and read 31329 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 265):
Any more news on this? Have efforts begun to move it? Insurance assessment?

Maybe it might be worth considering a second thread for it, as we've now reached 267.



Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 267):
I would of thought that the existence of a video was a given since the onboard cameras should of had taped the whole thing. Now watching the accident form an outside view would be even better! but we all know the quality on the security cams is always awful.

Atleast there is a video of it, like SKRG 747 accident.

Sorry, Ive been awfully busy but all I hear is all is the same.
Stefano

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Icaro
Posted 2007-11-15 01:44:34 and read 30957 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 275):
how do you keep 350 people inside the plane from not getting out on their own?

By being assertive. When such a thing happens you have to show that you are in control of the situation. We can start an evacuation only in these three things happen: plane stopped with engines shut off, immediate danger for lives and no further notice from cockpit crew.
When there is an emergency, the cockpit crew will say "cabin crew alert" and then two things can happen, if they decide there is a danger then they will say "evacuation, evacuation, evacuation", and if not, they will say "normal operation".
During the time they alert till they say what to do, you got to control the pax and the outside situation.
With this procedure you avoid to evacuate the plane when not necessary, thus saving injuries or worse.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: JetMech
Posted 2007-11-15 02:34:48 and read 30835 times.



Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 120):
Ok, that explains then that they were of course shut down by action of the pilots. Does this shutdown also turn the reversers off if on, or at least move the shells back to their original position?

I'm pretty sure that there is no interlink between the fire handle and the TR. IIRC, pulling the fire handle isolates all systems to and from the engine, such as fuel, hydraulics, electrical, and I think pneumatics. Twisting the fire handle then fires off the extinguishers.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 131):
Would the shells have retracted fully, once damaged?

Probably not. The TR's on the Trent 500 are the translating type, so it is doubtful they could retract if sufficiently damaged, and most probably not if the engine has contacted the ground deeply enough.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 180):
nah for real this plane is a passenger aircraft, I think standards for repairs like these are different.

The standards for repairs are the same for a freighter or a passenger aircraft. Whether the money is spent for the proper repairs on a freighter is another matter.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 229):
My humble opinion is that reversers are a must, that's all, check this video out

As Zeke and Miamiair have stated, the TR's are not essential for a safe landing. They do help in dire circumstances, but the major bulk of retardation duties are carried out by the brakes. TR's are a MEL'able item.

Regards, JetMech

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-15 04:42:26 and read 30620 times.



Quoting JetMech (Reply 282):
They do help in dire circumstances, but the major bulk of retardation duties are carried out by the brakes. TR's are a MEL'able item.

I think this would probably qualify as a dire circumstance; while TRs are not essential, as stated above, I wonder how many crews would be happy to land at a place like UIO, where the landing speed would be around the 180kt mark; sure, you can use brakes, but that must put a hell of a lot of pressure on them; use of TRs would certainly help the braking action. Possibly in this case, the crew got an EICAS message about a thrust reverser being inop?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-15 12:05:56 and read 30036 times.

I was just listening to a radio interview with the head of Ecuador's aviation authority (DAC), who was asked about a video shown on television showing the Quito airport's fire brigade getting into action as soon as the IB A346 passed the fire station, situated on a side of the runway. The journalist asked if the firemen had been pre-warned about a possible emergency, but the head of DAC answered that it was only the excessive speed of the plane at that point that made them realise that there was imminent danger and they needed to get under way.
The fire brigade at Quito airport deserve every praise for their prompt action. They may well have played a -literally- vital part in avoiding a major tragedy, There was a small fire put out according to passenger accounts.

This video was leaked to only 2 media outlets in Ecuador, so the one I was listening too was demanding an internal investigation from DAC and the ministry of Transport as it was not supposed to be made public (although I think they are just annoyed that it was not them who were given it).
I have not been able to find it online, but if anybody, especially a.netters in Ecuador have seen it, or know where we can find it, please let us know!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-15 12:48:36 and read 29856 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 284):
There was a small fire put out according to passenger accounts.

If this is correct, why was no evacuation carried out? I assume that as the fire was extinguished, then there was no danger anymore?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-15 13:03:07 and read 29798 times.



Quoting JetMech (Reply 282):
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 131):
Would the shells have retracted fully, once damaged?

Probably not. The TR's on the Trent 500 are the translating type, so it is doubtful they could retract if sufficiently damaged, and most probably not if the engine has contacted the ground deeply enough.

The pictures from the AF incident above show the TR in their extended condition still. The same goes for the 2005 crash in Toronto, where the TRs are still deployed after the accident.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: FAEDC3
Posted 2007-11-15 13:29:49 and read 29678 times.



Quoting Icaro (Reply 273):
And from a safety perspective I think that it is better to watch the cam and see what is coming, so you can brace.
Also the crew get a better view of the outside to evaluate whether to open their door or not.

Agreed, safety wise is better, but it doesn´t take the frills of watching it happen!!  Wow!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Da man
Posted 2007-11-15 13:35:37 and read 29730 times.

It seems that the worldwide A340-600 fleet is having a very bad month so far:
Airbus Ground Test Accident (by Anzacbat Nov 15 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-15 14:49:36 and read 29669 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 284):
have not been able to find it online, but if anybody, especially a.netters in Ecuador have seen it, or know where we can find it, please let us know!

SOME VIDEO EVIDENCE
I really wanted to see the clips, and after searching very hard, I have.
For anybody who wants to see, go to http://www.ecuavisa.com/Desktop.aspx?Id=958&e=826
and click on the movie icon. Ignore the first 1 min 44 seconds, that is just the presenter trying to show that he knows about aviation whilst interviewing a pilot, but then they show footage from the IB landing, as seen from different cameras along the runway. You may have to be patient with the site, as it can be slow or non-responsive sometimes.

It would be very helpful for some informed speculation, to have the opinion of people familiar with the ground to tell us if it was indeed a late landing. It seems to me that reversers had not deployed (whether intentional or not) when the aircraft passed the alarmed firemen.
Any other observation are, of course, welcome.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Reality
Posted 2007-11-15 15:02:41 and read 29435 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 289):
Ignore the first 1 min 44 seconds, that is just the presenter trying to show that he knows about aviation whilst interviewing a pilot

It seems like the discussion is more than fluff, and that the interviewer and pilot (not the IB pilot) are talking about the approach and the altitude of the airport and the trajectory of the plane. If anyone is able to summarize what they are saying, that might be interesting.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iahmark
Posted 2007-11-15 15:34:08 and read 29344 times.

The video is more about the personal opinion as a pilot ( R Viteri) but the value is on the few seconds of footage…

For what I can see the plane almost touches the runaway halfway (right across the terminal) and speed wise it seemed a little fast but could not really tell.

Also looking at the engines you cannot see the trust reverser being deployed even in last seconds of the footage when you see the plane pass in front of the fire station.

By the way once the plane touché ground it was a smooth roll on the runaway which contradicts reports of having such a hard landing (that bent one of the legs of the main landing gear); not such thing was observed…the damaged must have been done once the plane run out of the runaway.

My opinion is that the pilots thought they could stop it with brakes alone but they miscalculated; it looks like if they would have applied the trust reverse all these events could have been avoided.

As far as weather it looked like a rainy day, not much fog…..

The only point of interest in the interview is the admission from Viteri’s part that UIO airport requires a textbook approach and that local pilots follow it more so that international pilots.

In the end the true evidence is on the footage, see it and comment later.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-15 16:08:36 and read 29262 times.

The reversers were certainly never deployed.

The interview is actually pretty damn good overall, the way the entire process is explained.

Quoting Iahmark (Reply 292):
In the end the true evidence is on the footage, see it and comment later.

Yep!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Hloutweg
Posted 2007-11-15 16:36:30 and read 29239 times.

I was browsing vacuously on YouTube and found this video that probability most of us know. It was recorded in Quito and I wonder if it is the same aircraft now ruined in the Ecuadorian capital. Do you have any info on this?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-15 16:57:32 and read 29128 times.



Quoting Iahmark (Reply 292):
once the plane touché ground it was a smooth roll on the runaway which contradicts reports of having such a hard landing (that bent one of the legs of the main landing gear); not such thing was observed…the damaged must have been done once the plane run out of the runaway

Indeed, so the violent impact must have come from the front wheel starting the ploughing of the safety zone. Such an abrupt breaking that some luggage was propulsed out of the bins, according to passenger reports.

For anybody who watches the video, watch out for spoilers. The image definition might not allow to tell if these were deployed or not, but experts might just. It would be good to eliminate them from the enquiry - or not.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Sphealey
Posted 2007-11-15 18:39:37 and read 28927 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 144):
On seeing that there was no danger of fire nor serious injuries, the flight attendants tried calming passengers until the stairs were brought in for all to disembark. Until that happened, it was 40 minutes, with people more and more nervous and babies crying. In the end they decided to deploy the emergency slides and we all started to evacuate.

I am a little puzzled by that. Perhaps I have read too many volumes of _Air Disasters_, but my understanding is that once an airplane has experienced structural damage your chances of survival go down exponentially every second after the 2 minute (120 second) or even 1 minute mark. Had I been on that plane anywhere near an emergency exit I think I would have popped the exit, tossed 5 fellow passengers out, and jumped long before receiving any instructions from anyone. Waiting 30 minutes doesn't seem very wise.

sPh

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-15 19:08:22 and read 28845 times.



Quoting Sphealey (Reply 296):
Had I been on that plane anywhere near an emergency exit I think I would have popped the exit, tossed 5 fellow passengers out, and jumped long before receiving any instructions from anyone. Waiting 30 minutes doesn't seem very wise.

Which addreses my questions on post 275. I think that I myself would have done the same.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ADent
Posted 2007-11-16 01:20:24 and read 28563 times.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PHKLM
Posted 2007-11-16 01:27:05 and read 28415 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 285):
If this is correct, why was no evacuation carried out? I assume that as the fire was extinguished, then there was no danger anymore?

Even so; after just going through a crash I wouldn't want to sit on a plane for 40 minutes. Even in normal circumstances I'd hate waiting 40 minutes to get off after a 10 hour flight.
I cannot understand that the "risk of evacuation" is higher than keeping 300 souls on board of the plane. Stupidly enough Iberia has proven their own wrong doing because in the end they DID evacuate. No major injuries where sustained.

Well trained crew can evacuate a plane in an orderly manner in a short period of time. I they act with authority no people get hurt. Sure, the direct outsides of the plane can be dangerous right after a crash, but so it is inside.
You are facing two options: regretting you did evacuate immediately and causing a few broken ankles, or regretting you did not evacuate immediately with a substantial loss of life.

In safety demonstrations we are always told "in case of an emergency, this is aircraft is equipped with X emergency exits, etc". Well, to me running off the runway with firetrucks at the left side of the plane and having plowed through a field classifies as an emergency. I'd use the exits if I'd see no fire on that side of the plane and was sure the engines had come to a stop (which is easily heard and seen by the loss or repeated interruption of cabin lights).

I do not advocate using emergency slides "no matter what" but in this case they should have been used right away. Remember all the SAS Q800 accidents, caught on tape, we all applauded the SAS crew for handling these accidents so well. Pax were evacuated in seconds, but really where those pax in more danger than the ones on the IB plane? I don't think so. What would we say when SAS held the pax on board for 40 minutes after those crashes? Very ill handled by IB crew in my opinion.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-16 02:34:59 and read 28304 times.



Quoting ADent (Reply 298):

Thanks for posting these stills from the video. It certainly makes it easier for observation.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 299):
I cannot understand that the "risk of evacuation" is higher than keeping 300 souls on board of the plane

I have to agree.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: JetMech
Posted 2007-11-16 05:48:50 and read 28074 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 283):
use of TRs would certainly help the braking action.



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 286):
The pictures from the AF incident above show the TR in their extended condition still. The same goes for the 2005 crash in Toronto, where the TRs are still deployed after the accident.

Of course, I agree fully with what both of you say, TR's could make the difference in dire situations, and there is no doubt they do shorten landing roll out distances.

Regards, JetMech

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: NA
Posted 2007-11-16 06:46:32 and read 27943 times.



Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 294):
I was browsing vacuously on YouTube and found this video that probability most of us know. It was recorded in Quito and I wonder if it is the same aircraft now ruined in the Ecuadorian capital. Do you have any info on this?

The video is from 2005, the aircraft involved in this incident/accident was delivered in early 2006. So, no, this video doesn´t show the ill-fated A346.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: CM767
Posted 2007-11-16 08:24:04 and read 27688 times.

Anyone else believes that something has to be done to better inform pilots of runway conditions? should a decision to continue to operate into an airport should be of pilots alone, or someone on the ground should have a said on it ?

There have been many overruns / accidents this year and two last year where weather could have played a huge part, while the investigation of most is not concluded, I wonder if is time to take weather more seriously and monitor the condition of runways and take the decision on the ground to suspend operations.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LH498
Posted 2007-11-16 08:51:50 and read 27602 times.

Allow me to add some fuel to the evacuation discussion:
Well, let's have a look at a past emergency evacuation of an Iberia Jumbo.




Don't want to make any conclusions, but it's not a good precedent...

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-16 09:23:26 and read 27526 times.



Quoting LH498 (Reply 304):
Don't want to make any conclusions, but it's not a good precedent...

While you're right, less than comforting, it is interesting to note someone was filiming the event. Doesn't that seem odd? I'm like, Is this the time for home movies?

Also, what was the total evac time? Is it known? Cause of emergency?

All that being said, people do need to pay attention to where emergency exits are......and (unlike what appeared to be happening) NOT STOPPING FOR CABIN BAGGAGE.

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-16 11:01:43 and read 27323 times.



Quoting CM767 (Reply 303):
Anyone else believes that something has to be done to better inform pilots of runway conditions? should a decision to continue to operate into an airport should be of pilots alone, or someone on the ground should have a said on it ?

And also, if the aircraft indeed landed too long, why didn't they abort and go around for a second try?

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-16 11:29:24 and read 27195 times.



Quoting CM767 (Reply 303):
Anyone else believes that something has to be done to better inform pilots of runway conditions? should a decision to continue to operate into an airport should be of pilots alone, or someone on the ground should have a said on it ?

I doubt very much that the main contributory factor to this crash was the condition of the runway.
So long as the information is accurate, it is ultimately up to the crew. The airline has its own policy for operations and minimal conditions required for landing at specific airports to which the crew should adhere.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2007-11-16 13:10:30 and read 27003 times.

In the Ecuadorian video of the plane landing, you can see that the TV station has circled the exhaust pipe of one of the fire/rescue vehicles starting up. At the same time you see the aircraft landing in the background. Now, I wonder why the fire brigade was on its way down the runway before the Iberia plane had even come to a stop.

The airport fire department is usually informed of an accident, or an impending accident, by ATC. Could it be that the firemen had a sixth sense, or was the approach and subsequent touchdown so shaky that ATC told the fire people to "follow that plane." This was probably one of the fastest responses by the emergency crews, ever. Something in my mind says it does not add up.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Scooter01
Posted 2007-11-16 13:30:43 and read 26880 times.



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 203):
Having spent the better part of the last 2 hours reading every post in this thread and watcing the videos, I am surprised no-one has commented on how quickly the fire-trucks and people from the airport-authority (in yellow wests) got to the scene.
-Almost as if they were pre-warned???



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 289):
when the aircraft passed the alarmed firemen.



Quoting RIXrat (Reply 308):
In the Ecuadorian video of the plane landing, you can see that the TV station has circled the exhaust pipe of one of the fire/rescue vehicles starting up. At the same time you see the aircraft landing in the background. Now, I wonder why the fire brigade was on its way down the runway before the Iberia plane had even come to a stop.

I'm glad somebody else also noticed the rapid deployment of the rescue crew

Scooter01

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BHMBAGLOCK
Posted 2007-11-16 14:25:18 and read 26687 times.



Quoting RIXrat (Reply 308):
In the Ecuadorian video of the plane landing, you can see that the TV station has circled the exhaust pipe of one of the fire/rescue vehicles starting up. At the same time you see the aircraft landing in the background. Now, I wonder why the fire brigade was on its way down the runway before the Iberia plane had even come to a stop.

Already covered. These guys were on the ball!

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 284):
The journalist asked if the firemen had been pre-warned about a possible emergency, but the head of DAC answered that it was only the excessive speed of the plane at that point that made them realise that there was imminent danger and they needed to get under way.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Latinplane
Posted 2007-11-16 18:55:50 and read 26295 times.

Complete incompetence was demontrated by Iberia's crew with their inappropriate handling of the situation. I wonder if they can be legally prosecuted for potentially putting the passengers lives at risk for failling to do their jobs. I just don't get it!!! This is video of TACA's accident in Guatemala City is exactly the same situation that occured with IB's A340, yet the F/A here did a marvelous job of directing their passengers out safely from the 767 within seconds. What the hell were IB's FA's thinking! Noneone can absolutely find any explanation whatsover in their defense.



LatinPlane

[Edited 2007-11-16 18:58:51]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: PU752
Posted 2007-11-16 22:50:10 and read 26090 times.

Por favor habran un nuevo topic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! esta demasiado largo para leer !

Please start a new topic !!! this is way too large for reading!


Thanks!

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-16 23:50:22 and read 26051 times.

I was once in a 727-200 REAL evacuation due to no. 2 engine blowing up at V1. I exited via the R-1 slide.

1. The mind works funny tricks. Even from the 727, when I got to the slide, it looked high. However I did not hesitate to jump into the slide, but others might.

I can't imagine how it looks from the top of the slide in an A346

2. The plane was filling with smoke. I am 1.86 mts tall, 100 kg and work out regularly. I was on a window seat and could not leave it and get to the aisle. Finally I said screw politeness and if it weren't for my elbows, fists, kicks, pushing, and shoving I would still be seated on that lovely window seat getting a real high from the noxious fumes to the tune of "Lucy in the sky with diamonds".

3. Even though wearing tough jeans, going down the slide, I chaffed my butt, and underside of legs and they remained chaffed for a week. I don't know what would happen to the butts of people sliding from the A346 or to those wearing shorts. They will probably leave their epidermis smeared on the slide on the way down.

So, I can understand when crews are hesitant to start an emergency evacuation. But still. Having seen the video and the pictures from the aircraft, plus the few seconds that one engine was on fire, I still think it was pretty foolhardy that no emergency evac took place.

Flame me now

A few pointers: ( I am on a roll here)

Always "read the safety card in the seat pocket in front of you", do not wear shorts or short sleeved shirts on a plane trip, be prepared to make your fear of heights disappear pretty quickly and only think of getting out. Nothing else should be on your mind. Believe me, nobody is going to go back and get you, specially if there is smoke in the cabin

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-17 00:00:18 and read 26028 times.

I'm lucky, in my 25+ years of flying never to have had that experience; the closest I've come to anything remotely serious is having to stop on a runway at DEL, after our IC A320 suffered a nosegear problem; we left by stairway, still stopped on the runway.

Think of the prospect of exiting from the upper deck of a 744 or 380. Not pleasant to contemplate. If the slide is wet (always a possibility, particularly if weather is a contributory cause in an incident), there must be a risk of flying off the bottom of the slide and breaking a few limbs.

The one (other) thing that concerns me is, since you land into the wind, the slides, when they deploy, will be "perpendicular" to the wind; if the wind is particularly strong, doesn't that pose the risk that they could be flipped over? Murphy's Law dictates that this would happen just as you're sliding half way down ...

(I did notice, in shots of the evacuation of the IB aircraft, that Ecuadorian troops/police seems to be hanging onto the slide, presumably to avoid this happening?)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2007-11-17 02:16:07 and read 25862 times.



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 299):
I cannot understand that the "risk of evacuation" is higher than keeping 300 souls on board of the plane. Stupidly enough Iberia has proven their own wrong doing because in the end they DID evacuate. No major injuries where sustained.

The question of "do we evacuate" and "when to decide to evacuate" is always open for debate. If there's fire burning outside then yeah, who cares about any evacuation order from the cockpit, just evacuate! If the cocpit crew in coordination with the fire crew determine that there is no fire risk, then why commit to an emergency evacuation? Should they? shouldn't they?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 306):
And also, if the aircraft indeed landed too long, why didn't they abort and go around for a second try?

That's the ideal situation. However, they'd be looking at the indicated airspeed to see what their speed was, and while on sea level, 140 knots may mean 140kts true airspeed, up there in Quito, at 10,000ft, it could be 160-180 knots depending on the conditions. The crew may not have realised they were too fast because of that... they don't look at groundspeed until they're taxying. Too long doesn't require you to go around... if you determine at the time you can stop in time. I dunno the 346 figures, but the 330 give a bloody short stopping distance if you ask it... Again, the standard things we want to know...
1. spoiler arming and deployment
2. Thrust lever positions through out the roll
3. braking decision and action.
4. Did the crew realize something wasn't right and when along the landing did they realize an overrun was imminent.

Then we go to how was the crew during the landing, any thing that raise alarm bells when listening to the CVR (like pilot fixation or partial incapacity, etc).

It's never as simple as "if they landed long, why didn't they just go-around."

Mandala499

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Ferengi80
Posted 2007-11-17 03:18:23 and read 25696 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 315):
Should they? shouldn't they?

They should, no matter what the situation. The aircraft was at a perculiar angle, engine 3 had been pretty much ripped from the wing, ergo there was signifcant risk of a fire starting.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 147):
3 Engines ripped out, wing lost, a landing gear ripped out, front gear colpassed!

Based on this, the emergency slides should have been deployed immediately, and the passengers evacuated as quickly as possible. The flight crew should never delay the evacuation of the aircraft, no matter whether they don't want the hassle of deploying the slides or not.

Simple answer should be, plane has crashed, evacuate the aircraft immediately. I think the flight crew should be severely disciplined for their lack of safety awareness in this incident.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-17 03:43:40 and read 25649 times.



Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 316):
Based on this, the emergency slides should have been deployed immediately,

2 engines rather than 3 broken and out of position, but nonetheless, I agree that the best course of action would have been an immediate evacuation. At least one emergency exit was opened by the time the firemen were at the scene, so clearly somebody -whether crew or passenger- thought they should leave. But they were told to wait for stairs!
How many cameras do A346's crew have access to? The tail one alone should have clearly shown the precariousness of the situation.

Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 316):
I think the flight crew should be severely disciplined for their lack of safety awareness in this incident.

The crew may well take the blame, but the training and policy at the company should be scrutinised. The event at Quito raises very serious questions.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-17 03:49:50 and read 25635 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 317):
But they were told to wait for stairs!

I know that this has been said many times, but I'm not sure who gave this order. Captain? Fire Crew? UIO Airport?

I think it would be interesting to know.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 317):
The crew may well take the blame, but the training and policy at the company should be scrutinised. The event at Quito raises very serious questions.

This is true. I think it would be intereting to know what IB flight manual/policy/etc says about evacuation (when, where, circumtances, etc). It would also be interesting to know if the crew has to have this info memorized, rather than looking it up POST event. Does anyone know any airline/government policy about these issues?

Thanks to the flight crews who have been so patient in explaining things! And esp BIG THANK YOU to all the many flight crew who have landed me safely over the years!

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2007-11-17 03:57:47 and read 25620 times.

I think people forget that evacuations are dangerous, and not to be taken on a whim. Should they deploy the slides and risk injuring or killing people when the fire crews are there, and reporting no fire danger?

BTW Jet fuel is hell to light, you can put matches out with it. Its not gasoline which goes to vapor with the slightest excuse.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: R2rho
Posted 2007-11-17 10:43:13 and read 25218 times.

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 190):

I agree with you, they say that they evacuated in total, 30 minutes. And as mentioned , I also think they were waiting for stairs to and rescue them!! That way perhaps they though they didnt have to inflate the tobbogans, saving that hassle. Ridiculous! Its an emergency!!

Nobody is hurt, all went well. Therefore, let's all bash Iberia !!!!
Ah, how typical for airliners.net... if this were a, say, BA plane, everyone would be praising the crew's professionalism for correctly assessing the situation and choosing the right thing to do despite the temptation to evacuate immediately.

None of us knows what went on there. We do not know what the IB pilots and the airport authorities communicated between them. We do not know what indications were given by the fire crew. We do not know what information was available to them that is not available to us and that made them take that course of action. Nobody wants to keep passengers for 30min on a crashed plane just for fun. With whatever information was available to them, they decided that it was the best thing to do. And the result speaks for itself.

Quoting Icaro (Reply 202):
The only fact that we DO have is that there were no injuries. And we can be almost sure that if they had evacuated via the chutes in 90 seconds, we would be saying something different.
Concerning the evacuation, the captain DID take the right decision: observe and act in consequence. He didn't see any immediate danger and decided to wait and protect his passengers and crew.
Saying that the chutes were not inflated to save money is absurd to say something light.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 315):
If the cocpit crew in coordination with the fire crew determine that there is no fire risk, then why commit to an emergency evacuation? Should they? shouldn't they?

Well, there's still some sense left in this thread...

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 205):
the reversers were not deployed that is a fact.

This is NOT a fact. It is YOUR interpretation of the photos.

It is important to know that brake tests are always performed without reversers (the aircraft must be able to stop on brakes alone), and that landing performance is calculated without reversers (though performance with reversers may be given for information). But I won't get any more into this, Zeke's posts say all there is to say.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 259):
The A340NG can be landed safely at the planned landing weight that this flight was at, at that airport without the use of reverse.

Thank you Zeke for all the info.

Quoting ADent (Reply 272):
The on board performance calculator used by WN on its 737s assumes thrust reversers. The pilots assumed no thrust reversers were used in the calculations and that they would give extra margin. They applied them late and went thru the fence at MDW.

The pilots assumed correctly. As I said, performance calculations do not assume reversers, so the performance calculator was at fault here, either that or a failure to instruct the pilots on this anomaly of WN's 737s.

Quoting CM767 (Reply 303):
Anyone else believes that something has to be done to better inform pilots of runway conditions? should a decision to continue to operate into an airport should be of pilots alone, or someone on the ground should have a said on it ?

There have been many overruns / accidents this year and two last year where weather could have played a huge part, while the investigation of most is not concluded, I wonder if is time to take weather more seriously and monitor the condition of runways and take the decision on the ground to suspend operations.

This is the best conclusion that can be drawn from this. I'm tired of constantly hearing about runway overruns this year. What's going on? These incidents need to be looked into seriously by the authorities, and clear recommendations, norms or procedures should come out of it.

Sorry for the long post, guys  Wink Maybe start a Part 2 thread? This is getting really long...

[Edited 2007-11-17 10:44:25]

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-17 11:42:39 and read 24946 times.



Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 316):
The aircraft was at a perculiar angle, engine 3 had been pretty much ripped from the wing, ergo there was signifcant risk of a fire starting.

Not really. The overriding safety design of engine mounts and fuel systems of all sorts is fuel containment. The engine came off *because* it was designed to do so rather than tear open the fuel tank.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
As I said, performance calculations do not assume reversers, so the performance calculator was at fault here, either that or a failure to instruct the pilots on this anomaly of WN's 737s.

Actual performance calculations *do* include the use of reversers, since actual landings use reversers on a normal basis. This isn't an anomaly at WN. Certified landing performance does not include reversers, but people rarely land to certified performance.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: R2rho
Posted 2007-11-17 12:42:38 and read 24799 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 321):
Actual performance calculations *do* include the use of reversers, since actual landings use reversers on a normal basis. This isn't an anomaly at WN. Certified landing performance does not include reversers, but people rarely land to certified performance.

Yes, I should've mentioned the word "certification" somewhere. Maybe I didn't express myself as well as I thought. Performance specs do of course include landing distances with and without reversers as well as other factors. My point was basically that reversers are a very nice, useful and important addition, but the plane "should" be able to land without having to use them, as certification stipulates. Thrust reversers are not part of the MEL.

"Contributing to the accident, according to the board, was Southwest's failure to provide pilots with guidance and training on landing distance computations as well as its inadequate presentation of onboard performance computer information, the airline's version of an electronic flight bag (EFB)."
"Immediately after the accident the NTSB asked the FAA to prohibit airlines from using thrust reversers in landing distance computations. The FAA instead opted to mandate additional landing distance margins requiring changes to airline operations specifications."

Read it all on: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...sers-key-to-midway-crash-ntsb.html

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2007-11-17 12:51:18 and read 24753 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 321):
Actual performance calculations *do* include the use of reversers, since actual landings use reversers on a normal basis. This isn't an anomaly at WN. Certified landing performance does not include reversers, but people rarely land to certified performance.

What about noise abatement procedures? Pretty common at many airports, more frequently during night operations.

Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 316):
Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 147):
3 Engines ripped out, wing lost, a landing gear ripped out, front gear colpassed!

Actually those are not my words. I was quoting another fellow user who said that 3 engines had been ripped out, and told him that only 2 engines were damaged, which turned out to be true.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-17 13:16:38 and read 24668 times.



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 323):
What about noise abatement procedures?

Even if noise abatement regulations are strict, aircraft still use at least idle reverse.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Bullpitt
Posted 2007-11-17 13:52:33 and read 24582 times.

Hi all

Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
Nobody is hurt, all went well. Therefore, let's all bash Iberia !!!!
Ah, how typical for airliners.net... if this were a, say, BA plane, everyone would be praising the crew's professionalism for correctly assessing the situation and choosing the right thing to do despite the temptation to evacuate immediately.

None of us knows what went on there. We do not know what the IB pilots and the airport authorities communicated between them. We do not know what indications were given by the fire crew. We do not know what information was available to them that is not available to us and that made them take that course of action. Nobody wants to keep passengers for 30min on a crashed plane just for fun. With whatever information was available to them, they decided that it was the best thing to do. And the result speaks for itself.

Just for this I'll welcome you to my respected users list. Once the official conclusions to the accident are made, maybe we should look back and anwer all these armchair pilots. Big grin

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-17 14:38:17 and read 24633 times.



Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 325):
Once the official conclusions to the accident are made, maybe we should look back and anwer all these armchair pilots.

According to Ecuador's DAC, an initial official report will be available within a month.
With all the evidence at hand, it should not be very challenging.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Sphealey
Posted 2007-11-17 14:54:04 and read 24609 times.

> Nobody is hurt, all went well. Therefore, let's all bash Iberia !!!!

IMHO that statement is the absolute antithesis of a safety culture. Continuous analysis of lessons learned and self-criticism are the core principles of operations safety. Trying to quiet people by calling such analysis "bashing" is not productive.

Also IMHO the issue is quite pertinent for a.net. The people who read this forum are much more informed than the average airline passenger, more likely to have read the _Air Disasters_ volumes where numerous examples of deaths due to slowness to initiate evacuation can be found, and more likely to be sitting in an exit row. So a discussion here is a good thing.

sPh

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Swissy
Posted 2007-11-17 15:02:00 and read 24599 times.

Sorry to join so late...... better late than never......

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 325):
Just for this I'll welcome you to my respected users list. Once the official conclusions to the accident are made, maybe we should look back and anwer all these armchair pilots.

Thats the a.net for you....  Wink however it would have been nice to get some "actual input" from the pros here on the a.net on how they would or have to handle a situation based on their SOPs like in UIO.

No need to bash IB before we have any real info from some officials and you can not compare the AF incident/acident at YYZ with the IB at UIO, based on what I have seen the situation was under control at UIO which we can not say with the AF case (saw it myself as I was only 1/2 a km away and helped ....). no need to react like a headless chicken and injure or put pax in to a dangerous situation, I am sure the IB cabin crew would have evacuated the stricken aircraft within 90 secs. if needed..........

So lets hope we get some more info's and I do hope that "sexy" 340-600" will be given a second chance and she can spread her wings again Big grin

Cheers,

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-17 15:16:51 and read 24569 times.



Quoting R2rho (Reply 322):
My point was basically that reversers are a very nice, useful and important addition, but the plane "should" be able to land without having to use them, as certification stipulates. Thrust reversers are not part of the MEL.

Actually, they are part of the MEL. However, we mean the same thing...you can fly safety and legally with the reversers working.

There was a huge discussion about this on the thread about the A340 winglet:
RE: Passengers Refuse To Fly Without A 340 Wingtip. (by FlyDeltaJets87 Nov 12 2007 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3699102&searchid=3700660&s=A340+winglet#ID3700660

The MEL isn't the list of things you have to have, it's the list of things you're allowed to have inoperative. The fact that the T/R's are on the MEL means you're allowed to fly with them inoperative. If they weren't on the MEL, then you'd have to have them to dispatch.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: R2rho
Posted 2007-11-17 15:47:41 and read 24500 times.



Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 325):

Just for this I'll welcome you to my respected users list.

 bigthumbsup 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 329):
The MEL isn't the list of things you have to have, it's the list of things you're allowed to have inoperative. The fact that the T/R's are on the MEL means you're allowed to fly with them inoperative. If they weren't on the MEL, then you'd have to have them to dispatch.

Again we mean the same thing  Wink. I got it the other way around. Yes, they are on the MEL, and the MEL states that you can fly with them inoperative, and what if any special procedures are to be followed in that case. There, that should get it right, I hope  Smile

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: R2rho
Posted 2007-11-17 15:58:49 and read 24474 times.



Quoting Sphealey (Reply 327):

Finish reading through my post. I was complaining about airline-specific bashing, you know what I mean. Don't misunderstand me. I am not against discussion here at all - hell, I'm contributing to it!  Wink What would airliners.net be without all the speculation? And by the way, I consider this forum to be much more reliable source of aviation information than many "serious" media out there!

Us a-netters as well as the media are all speculating like mad now, looking for a quick answer to explain the incident, but one thing differentiates us from them: in a couple of months, when the full, serious, detailed, non-speculative investigation report is released, it will go unnoticed by the media - it ain't fresh news anymore, who cares? But you can be sure to have another long thread on airliners.net!  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Comorin
Posted 2007-11-17 20:02:34 and read 24246 times.



Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
Therefore, let's all bash Iberia !!!!
Ah, how typical for airliners.net... if this were a, say, BA plane, everyone would be praising the crew's professionalism

Well, airliners.net is an English language site, so everyone is biased thus:

BA = Britain = Glorious = Lord Nelson = Rules the Waves = Battle of Britain = Can do no wrong.
IB = Spain = Inquisition = Spanish Armada = Civil War = Manuel in Fawlty Towers = Can do no right.

Perdoneme, all meant in good humor  Smile

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Iwok
Posted 2007-11-17 20:12:38 and read 24224 times.

What is the status of the plane now? Has it been moved? Anyone have pictures?

iwok

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2007-11-17 21:46:17 and read 24143 times.

Reported on PPRUNE that 'JOH is a write-off as the airframe is badly twisted.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: ADent
Posted 2007-11-18 00:09:28 and read 24003 times.



Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):

The pilots assumed correctly. As I said, performance calculations do not assume reversers, so the performance calculator was at fault here, either that or a failure to instruct the pilots on this anomaly of WN's 737s.

This is why the plane went thru the fence - everyone assumed no reversers. Boeing & WN reportedly got the system certified - the performance calculator was not directly at fault.

Quote:
Contributing factors to the accident included Southwest's failure to provide clear and consistent guidance and training about company policies and procedures related to landing-distance calculations.

New rules are being proposed to require a 15% margin in all calcs, to clearly display critical assumptions, to calculate performance for every landing if conditions have changed since pre-departure calcs (only 50% of flights currently do so). NTSB wanted reversers removed from calcs, but didn't see anything from reports about the FAA requiring that.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Icaro
Posted 2007-11-18 02:37:51 and read 23797 times.



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 299):
Stupidly enough Iberia has proven their own wrong doing because in the end they DID evacuate

They did not evacuate, they left the plane via the chutes because it was the only way of doing so.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 299):
Remember all the SAS Q800 accidents

Yeap, evacuating an A346out of the runway with 350 souls on board is exactly the same as evacuating a one meter high airplane on the runway... exactly the same risks...  Yeah sure

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 311):
Complete incompetence was demontrated by Iberia's crew with their inappropriate handling of the situation

Are you referring to the amount of injured people? If you mean that by no evacuating the did something wrong, please read some previous posts and you will see that they did exactly what they were supposed to do, they followed their procedures.


But of course it would have been much more spectacular and more fun for all of us to watch an evacuation.........

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-18 03:02:07 and read 23757 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 334):
Reported on PPRUNE that 'JOH is a write-off as the airframe is badly twisted.

There are conflicting reports on JOH, as the in Ecuador they report that a replacement gear will be attached to the plane in situ, after lifting it on inflatables. The engines would be detached so that the main body can be transported on a moving platform to the air force base within the airport for repair.

Although I would not be surprised if the fuselage was indeed badly twisted. The damping action of the soft ground proved very effective. Just as well it is the rainy season. This was a very close escape.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2007-11-18 06:20:05 and read 23490 times.



Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 316):
They should, no matter what the situation. The aircraft was at a perculiar angle, engine 3 had been pretty much ripped from the wing, ergo there was signifcant risk of a fire starting.

Based on this, the emergency slides should have been deployed immediately, and the passengers evacuated as quickly as possible. The flight crew should never delay the evacuation of the aircraft, no matter whether they don't want the hassle of deploying the slides or not.

Various airlines from different countries would disagree to that!

Quoting Icaro (Reply 336):
Are you referring to the amount of injured people? If you mean that by no evacuating the did something wrong, please read some previous posts and you will see that they did exactly what they were supposed to do, they followed their procedures.

Perhaps we need to explain why and the procedures contain...

Before evacuations, there's normally an instruction to remain seated and await further instructions from the flight crew. That PA is to allow the flight crew time to assess the situation and complete the checklist item... initiating evacuation with the airplane "relatively intact" without completing the checklist WILL cause injuries, severe injuries and even death! You want pax to be sucked in to the engines? *grin*

Determining the risks during the emergency whilst still in the alert phase (ie: prior to cancellation, precautionary disembarkation or evacuation), can and do sometime take several minutes. During this time, information about abnormal conditions in the cabin and outside the aircraft are essential to the flight crew! All relevant info should be relayed immediately to the flight deck... but only ONE communication attempt should be made. Now, the fire trucks at the airport have a better view on the aircraft's fire risk at the time to prevent comms overload, distraction, etc.

When the aircraft stops all the F/As go to their designated exit and get ready to act immediately in response to any further PAs... which could be an alert cancellation, precautionary disembarkation (steps OR slide), or Evacuate! Precautionary disembarkation may be upgraded to an Evacuation if the situation requires. In severe, time critical emergency situation (to which this occasion doesn't seem like one), the Captain may elect to initiate an evacuation as per the initial PA.

Now precautionary disembarkation after alert phase, can be made with steps or slide... depending on type of emergency, availability of steps and distance to terminal... A particular door will be nominated. The word evacuation should not be used during a precautionary disembarkation as it could negate the urgency of the word when the status of the situation deem evacuation necessary. All doors that are NOT nominated should be blocked by an F/A to prevent panicked passengers from taking their own actions. If situation is upgraded, all F/As at unopened doors shall check the outside condition to check if it is safe to open (fire, smoke, height, obstacles situation... you don't want to open a slide that'll land on someone's head either).

Note that for an evacuation, there are emergency considerations. It is the captain's responsibility to initiate evacuation. Prior to cabin crew initiating evacuation, they must attempt to advise the cockpit crew and await their direction. It is totally wrong to initiate evac without attempting comms with cockpit. BUT, if it is obvious that evac is imperative, and contact with cockpit is not possible, then the cabin crew has the responsibility to initiate evac.

So, I must disagree to those who advocates that "immediate evacuation" is always the best choice.

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 327):
Also IMHO the issue is quite pertinent for a.net. The people who read this forum are much more informed than the average airline passenger, more likely to have read the _Air Disasters_ volumes where numerous examples of deaths due to slowness to initiate evacuation can be found, and more likely to be sitting in an exit row. So a discussion here is a good thing.

There were cases of late evacs and near disasters due to late evacs, based on old procedures where cabin crew were NOT allowed to initiate evac, and since the change, based on poor communications between cabin crew and flight deck. If I remember correctly, in 2000, IATA put this concern in one of its publication stating that CRM extends to the cabin and not just in the flight deck.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
This is the best conclusion that can be drawn from this. I'm tired of constantly hearing about runway overruns this year. What's going on? These incidents need to be looked into seriously by the authorities, and clear recommendations, norms or procedures should come out of it.

Overruns when wet... again and again. This "get-there-itis" needs to be readdressed!

Mandala499

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-18 10:59:53 and read 23141 times.



Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
This is NOT a fact. It is YOUR interpretation of the photos.

This is a fact , the reversers are not deployed in the photos. I have EYES!!!
also any body that is thinking the pilots decided to stow the reversers to dave the engines are living in dream land.
I can just picture the scene as the pilots are running out of runway and they decide to stow the reversers again to save the ENGINES... laughable really.
Why did the pilots not execute a touch and go instead? That is there job, to make decisions like that.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-18 12:57:13 and read 22933 times.



Quoting Wirelock (Reply 339):

Quoting R2rho (Reply 320):
This is NOT a fact. It is YOUR interpretation of the photos.

This is a fact , the reversers are not deployed in the photos. I have EYES!!!

Nobody (that I'm aware of) is disupting that the T/R's are stowed in the photos. What's up for debate is whether they were deployed during the landing roll. The fact that they're stowed after the crash does not mean they were stowed before it.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 339):
I can just picture the scene as the pilots are running out of runway and they decide to stow the reversers again to save the ENGINES... laughable really.

Yes, laughable, because that's not how T/R's work. The pilots absolutely would have shut down the engines as one of their first actions. That means pull all the thrust levers to idle and cut the fuel. The T/Rs are deployed by the thrust levers, it's not a separate function. If you idle all the thrust levers, you stow the T/R's.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 339):
Why did the pilots not execute a touch and go instead? That is there job, to make decisions like that.

Presumably, because they didn't realize they needed to until it was too late. We don't know what the pilots were actually thinking but, short of intentional gross negligence, you can bet that the flight crew were doing what they thought was the right thing given the information available to them at the time. Since they didn't do a touch and go, we can safely assume they thought that no doing a touch and go was the better option. In hindsight, it appears they were wrong, but that's the glory of hindsight.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-18 13:01:36 and read 22916 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 340):
If you idle all the thrust levers, you stow the T/R's.

Is this hydrolic or mechanical? I guess what I'm asking is if the T/Rs where engaged, the plane crashes, engines set to idol/turned off, woud it "force" the T/Rs to close?

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 340):
n hindsight, it appears they were wrong, but that's the glory of hindsight.

Oh so true.

Dave

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2007-11-18 13:25:13 and read 22857 times.

Re evacuation. In one of the videos shown early on in this thread, the fire brigade concentrated on spraying foam/water on the left hand side of the plane and it went everywhere. The video lasted for about two minutes, if I remember correctly, so releasing slides from that side of the plane could have injured passengers. Also, the two emergency exit windows shown in the video were opened, but no one was crawling out.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-18 13:47:41 and read 22793 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 340):
Nobody (that I'm aware of) is disupting that the T/R's are stowed in the photos. What's up for debate is whether they were deployed during the landing roll. The fact that they're stowed after the crash does not mean they were stowed before it.

Earlier in this thread there is a link to a video that actually shows the landing roll, from about 5 or 6 different cameras along the runway. In none of those does the TRs appear deployed.
For easier viewing, there are also stills from the video after that thread. Hence the confidence that Wirelock has about what he sees, as do I. And this might well be a very significant fact in this crash.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-18 14:07:58 and read 22706 times.



Quoting Wirelock (Reply 339):
also any body that is thinking the pilots decided to stow the reversers to dave the engines are living in dream land.
I can just picture the scene as the pilots are running out of runway and they decide to stow the reversers again to save the ENGINES... laughable really.
Why did the pilots not execute a touch and go instead? That is there job, to make decisions like that.

Well, you're very sure of yourself, aren't you....laughable really. In fact, why wait for the report when Wirelock seems to have it all worked out.  sarcastic 

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-18 14:32:14 and read 22627 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 340):
Yes, laughable, because that's not how T/R's work. The pilots absolutely would have shut down the engines as one of their first actions. That means pull all the thrust levers to idle and cut the fuel. The T/Rs are deployed by the thrust levers, it's not a separate function. If you idle all the thrust levers, you stow the T/R's.

so how do you explain engines 1 and 2 having stowed reversers??
they are detached from the wing. .... meaning that the hydraulic lines have been severed so there is no chance to stow them.
also the easiest way to shut the engine is to use the fire handle... once activated the hyd and fuel shut off valves will stop the engine and also isolate the hyd system from fluid loss

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: AndesSMF
Posted 2007-11-18 14:34:29 and read 22641 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 344):
why wait for the report when Wirelock seems to have it all worked out

BECAUSE THE VIDEO SHOWS THAT THE REVERSERS ARE NOT DEPLOYED DURING THE LANDING ROLL.

Plain and simple.

Clear as can be.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2007-11-18 15:06:24 and read 22613 times.

Wirelock,
If you've deployed reversers and overran, and the engines are still running when you come to a stop and you're still able to shut it down, YOU SHUT IT DOWN! That means, stow reversers, then shut it down. This also preserves any remaining good engines to be used later instead of exposing certain components for a prolonged period, as well as airflow disruptions to the engines which if the reversers are not stowed, can increase fire risk between the time the aircraft comes to a stop and the engine being fully dead/killed/shutdown. There have been cases where accidents/incidents showed that reversers were stowed after the aircraft had come to a stop, and even, reversers were deployed afterwards *bangs head on table*. One accident if I remember correctly, the report criticized the crew for not completing the shut down and evacuation checklist (stowing reversers on an engine still attached) because it was found out later from the FDR that the reverser levers on the throttles were put into stow after evacuation was completed! Too late then! LOL...

If the aircraft had ended up in a situation where there was no time to reconfigure the engines prior to shutdown, then we'd end up asking "why didn't they evacuate immediately."

There's a misconception that because you've left the paved surface, all hell breaks loose. It's not always like that!

Now as to why they didn't execute touch and go, well, regardless of whether they deployed reversers or not, if they had commanded reversers (which may or may not have deployed), they're committed to stop. No debate on that! Manufacturers have stated that... there are no guarantees that the reversers will not open in mid-air after the go-around despite safety features installed. Manufacturers don't want to take that legal risk!

Besides, the landing, if executed properly should yield a normal landing without the use of reversers. Looking at the stills, on the top pic, am I seeing engine #3's reversers are not totally deployed nor totally stowed?

On this set below, check the middle left frame...


Now, was there a tailwind or strong crosswind during the landing roll? I'm interested in looking at the rudder on the vertical set of photos (the top photo again). The crew could have deployed and then intended to go to idle reverse (but stowed it instead) due to controllabilty issues which could have been caused by strong cross or tailwind. If so, this won't be the first time an overrun is caused by reducing reverser to maintain controllability. METAR from the time of the accident suggests a tailwind on wet runway landing.

Why not the go around? The airport is also a high altitude airport, without hindsight, at the time, the crew may have thought they were well and truly screwed and that going around would yield a bigger disaster... it'll take longer than usual and less available thrust to go around at that airport than say at a sea level airport.

Davescj,
Not sure about the 346, but if I remember correctly, the bus uses hydraulic power for the reversers.

---
Interesting to see that slide L3 was deployed...

Mandala499

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2007-11-18 15:30:29 and read 22493 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 341):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 340):
If you idle all the thrust levers, you stow the T/R's.

Is this hydrolic or mechanical? I guess what I'm asking is if the T/Rs where engaged, the plane crashes, engines set to idol/turned off, woud it "force" the T/Rs to close?

It's typically hydraulic, although some aircraft use pneumatic. I'm not aware of any using pure mechanical, although I'm not sure how much difference that would make. If the flight crew puts all the thrust levers to idle, then the reversers are forced closed by the actuators.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 345):
so how do you explain engines 1 and 2 having stowed reversers??
they are detached from the wing. .... meaning that the hydraulic lines have been severed so there is no chance to stow them.

The fact that the engines are partially detached (they clearly didn't break all their mounts) does not necessarily mean the hydraulic lines are severed. There is always some slack in the fluid lines and electric lines precisely because you don't want them to carry loads. Displacements of the engines at the strut after the crash, where the connections are made, appear to be on the order of inches. It's certainly possible that the hoses were severed, but by no means assured.

Quoting Wirelock (Reply 345):
also the easiest way to shut the engine is to use the fire handle... once activated the hyd and fuel shut off valves will stop the engine and also isolate the hyd system from fluid loss

That is the easiest but it's not SOP. You don't pull the fire handle just to shut down, you pull it because you think there's a fire. If you don't think there's a fire, then you don't pull the fire handle. The flight crew really obviously thought there wasn't a fire (witness the slow evacuation) so I don't see why the crew would have pulled the fire handles. That would all depend on IB's emergency procedures, I'm sure.

I didn't realize until the last few posts that the videos posted were of the actual crash event...there are some other videos and photos running around of the crash aircraft on earlier landings. If the current video shows the plane on the runway with reversers stowed, then that's obviously pretty conclusive. What I was trying to caution against is extrapolating from the post-crash configuration to the pre-crash configuration.

Tom.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-18 15:32:42 and read 22490 times.



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 346):
BECAUSE THE VIDEO SHOWS THAT THE REVERSERS ARE NOT DEPLOYED DURING THE LANDING ROLL.

Regardless of your (rather rude) shouting, Wirelock was suggesting it impossible that the crew would consider returning the throttles to idle in that situation, whereas some on here, me included, have offerred plausible arguments and a case that in certain circumstances, they might well have - misleading IAS, aquaplaning etc., plus an over-run with four saved engines is better than one with four engines written off by FOD. I think you fail to appreciate the full set of circumstances and issues which faced the crew that evening.

All that is completely irrespective of the video shots, and is why you missed the point being made.

 sarcastic  And when you shout, it doesn't make an argument any more believable.  sarcastic 

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-18 15:40:04 and read 22462 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 348):
What I was trying to caution against is extrapolating from the post-crash configuration to the pre-crash configuration.

Tom

Excellent post; educated and informative.  conehead 

Thank you

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2007-11-18 15:44:51 and read 22443 times.



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 346):
BECAUSE THE VIDEO SHOWS THAT THE REVERSERS ARE NOT DEPLOYED DURING THE LANDING ROLL.

Plain and simple.

Clear as can be

But why it overran isn't that plain and simple....

Btw, spoilers were deployed anyone?
Can't see the vid at the moment, does the reversers seem completely stowed, or partial?

Mandala499

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Summa767
Posted 2007-11-18 15:45:10 and read 22446 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 344):
Well, you're very sure of yourself, aren't you....laughable really. In fact, why wait for the report when Wirelock seems to have it all worked out.

Please! No need to be childish. I think that Wirelock was stating a clear argument against the suggestion that reversers might have been stowed to save the engines, as priority would be stopping to avert disaster.

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Jogales
Posted 2007-11-18 16:00:19 and read 22442 times.

Here's Part 2:

Pt. 2: IB A346 Skids Off The RWY In UIO (by Jogales Nov 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-18 16:02:21 and read 22389 times.



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 352):
I think that Wirelock was stating a clear argument against the suggestion that reversers might have been stowed to save the engines, as priority would be stopping to avert disaster.

And you both continue to ignore the possibilities, circumstances and arguments that have been made the other way, not least by people who actually fly. Shouting in no way enhances one's argument.

Shamu

Topic: RE: IB A340-600 Skids Off The RWY At Quito/UIO
Username: Wirelock
Posted 2007-11-18 16:16:52 and read 22361 times.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 348):
The fact that the engines are partially detached (they clearly didn't break all their mounts) does not necessarily mean the hydraulic lines are severed. There is always some slack in the fluid lines and electric lines precisely because you don't want them to carry loads. Displacements of the engines at the strut after the crash, where the connections are made, appear to be on the order of inches.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 347):
If you've deployed reversers and overran, and the engines are still running when you come to a stop and you're still able to shut it down, YOU SHUT IT DOWN! That means, stow reversers, then shut it down.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 349):
Wirelock was suggesting it impossible that the crew would consider returning the throttles to idle in that situation,

ok well you 3 guys have all different points regarding the reversers.
Firstly hydraulic lines are not designed to have slack like what u are suggesting. The type of forces involved in this crash would snap hydraulic lines like twigs. I would find it difficult to believe that the hyd lines oin the damaged engines were unaffected. Also a MLG has been ripped off so there is a large posssibility that at least 1 system was not working correctly to complete a stow.

Secondly, I would like to see the over run check list that must be installed on these aircraft....]If you've deployed reversers and overran, and the engines are still running when you come to a stop and you're still able to shut it down, YOU SHUT IT DOWN! That means, stow reversers, then shut it down.

Thirdly, I do not think it is impossible for the crew to return the throttles to idle.... but IMO i think the crew did not deploy the reversers in the 1st place


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