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Topic: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2007-11-18 12:03:50 and read 12922 times.

At the current time there is enough traffic to support non-stop service at least five days a week between either LON or FRA and HNL. Germany and England together provide sufficent numbers to make the venture worthwhile. With the advent of the 772ER the aircaft is certainly there to fly the route over the pole.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-18 12:14:11 and read 12907 times.

Traffic is one thing, yield is another. HNL is mainly vacation traffic, which is in general lower yielding. Lack of Business/First passengers will give you a hard time to operate the flight profitable. Routing your passengers through mainland hubs makes more sense.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SpencerII
Posted 2007-11-18 12:21:38 and read 12886 times.

In answer to the posters question When? Probably not in the near future. With codeshare and Hawaii yields, It is not the best way or wisest way to place your resources---It would require to aircraft devoted entirely to that operation, and I cannot see anyone committing an aircraft such as what you are talking about to anything like that.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2007-11-18 12:38:13 and read 12849 times.

I can't see a major airline operating Europe-HNL nonstop. Maybe a charter/leisure carrier but even there yield would be low. It's also too far for one aircraft to operate a roundtrip in 24 hours and dedicating 2 aircraft to a low yield route like with virtually no business traffic would be a poor use of resources especially with current fuel prices. Connections via the many Hawaii gateways in the US and Canada works better and much of that kind of traffic would want to make a stopover enroute anyway.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-11-18 12:55:34 and read 12799 times.

You'd be very lucky to get a European non-charter carrier to fly direct services to Hawaii - hell, even AA and UA both claim they only fly to Hawaii to keep the frequent flyers happy - they need somewhere to burn miles. The routes don't yield much, they're long and expensive with very little local traffic coming the other way. Routes from Japan make money because of sheer volume.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Nzrich
Posted 2007-11-18 13:03:42 and read 12779 times.

Maybe a airline like NZ might and continue its flight through to LHR as it could still fill any empty seats with passengers from AKL to LHR and still get the yields as passengers between HNL and LHR would be the icing on the cake for the service .. A service like that would also help the AKL-HNL leg to and get it to daily ..

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-11-18 13:30:59 and read 12690 times.



Quoting SpencerII (Reply 2):
In answer to the posters question When? Probably not in the near future.

It's been discussed many times.

There are those here that actively dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't exist now, because europeans would rather go elsewhere, that if they go to HNL they also want to go the Los Angeles, that the connecting flights through the USA are almost as convenient anyway etc. etc. (despite being confronted with tourist numbers and aircraft schedules that say otherwise).

The real problem is the most likely candidate city would be London (due to language considerations and historical considerations), and such flights CAN'T exist under Bermuda 2 without another city pair being dropped. Further, for the longest time, only a 747 could do the job, and that was too big.

But now Bermuda 2 is dead and smaller long range aircraft exist (or soon will).

SRB has said he would likely launch HNL service in the future, and it's likely a matter of when they get enough 787s to make that route the best route to add. Or it's even feasible that they put A343s on the route while they use the newer planes for other routes. We'll see.

http://starbulletin.com/2007/04/25/business/story01.html

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2007-11-18 13:36:39 and read 12663 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
SRB has said he would likely launch HNL service in the future, and it's likely a matter of when they get enough 787s to make that route the best route to add. Or it's even feasible that they put A343s on the route while they use the newer planes for other routes. We'll see.

But even if he does, hows he going to get good yields, I am struggling to believe that up front will be a major money maker, but as you say, we'll see but IMHO we will be waiting a hell of a long time before we see this route open up.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-11-18 13:40:35 and read 12642 times.



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 7):
But even if he does, hows he going to get good yields, I am struggling to believe that up front will be a major money maker, but as you say, we'll see but IMHO we will be waiting a hell of a long time before we see this route open up.

Very good question - it's ALL leisure traffic. Even convention traffic is almost entirely continental US-based. Hawaii is a VERY long way away from Europe, it's a helluva long flight. There's no need to travel that far when you can get essentially the same experience in Jamaica or the Domincan Republic for much less money. And if you HAVE to have a beach holiday in the U.S., there's always Florida.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2007-11-18 13:52:42 and read 12595 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
It's been discussed many times.

Sigh yes....

UK/Europe - Honolulu Non-stop? (by CHRISBA777ER Feb 13 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service? (by N593HA Sep 10 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Europe To Hawaii Nonstop? (by HALFA Feb 17 2004 in Civil Aviation)


I guess some people dont give up on the dream and fail to accept the many reasons why a service (particularly a scheduled one) is not right around the corner.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-18 16:14:21 and read 12386 times.

Actually, once the 787-9 arrives it is very likely to happen.

Air New Zealand can't operate any more Auckland-London Heathrow services via California but can use other US intermediate points, and using Honolulu would work well from the following points of view:

1. AKL-LHR passengers would fill the high yield seats, while AKL-HNL and HNL-LHR passengers would fill the back of the plane.

2. It would offer AKL-LHR passengers totally new departure time options (services via LAX leave in early evening and via HKG leave around midnight, while a service via HNL would depart early in the morning from both AKL and LHR.)

And by the way, if Virgin Atlantic open the route they are likely to use their Manchester / Gatwick - configured 787-9, with a seat count likely to be roughly 16 Upper Class / 64 Premium Economy / 200 Economy, which would use Premium Economy demand to retain high-yields.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2007-11-18 16:44:18 and read 12312 times.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
Very good question - it's ALL leisure traffic.

Except when it's not.

There is cargo, and there are conventions.

And Las Vegas and Orlando are "all leisure traffic" (also a fallacy) yet they make it to europe.

The reason it doesn't exist now is because the city that makes the most sense, London, can't have service because of a stupid treaty. But that ends in 4 months.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
I guess some people dont give up on the dream and fail to accept the many reasons why a service (particularly a scheduled one) is not right around the corner.

That's a nice spin on something that is by no means settled.

And service does seem "right around the corner" in aviation terms at least, it's just will it be profitable?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2007-11-18 16:48:31 and read 12295 times.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
You'd be very lucky to get a European non-charter carrier to fly direct services to Hawaii - hell, even AA and UA both claim they only fly to Hawaii to keep the frequent flyers happy

That is ABSOLUTELY untrue.

Both AA and UA have repeatedly said that they serve Hawaii because it is massively profitable for them. Hawaii traffic may be leisure, but it is far from low yield. Try getting a cheap ticket to HNL on either.

NS

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SW733
Posted 2007-11-18 17:03:43 and read 12257 times.

No offense, but...Hawaii isn't really that great. Europeans have a lot of better places to go to in southern Europe/northern Africa, and even the Caribbean, than Hawaii. Add that to the 7200+ mi. trip LHR-HNL (compared to just over 4000 mi LHR-SXM as a random Caribbean destination I picked), and...well...not going to happen. Japanese go to Hawaii, Europeans don't.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2007-11-18 17:14:11 and read 12212 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Both AA and UA have repeatedly said that they serve Hawaii because it is massively profitable for them. Hawaii traffic may be leisure, but it is far from low yield. Try getting a cheap ticket to HNL on either.

That is probably largely related to the use of smaller aircraft (e.g. many 757s and now 737s) by US carriers serving Hawaii, compared to 747s, L1011s and DC-10s on virtually all flights a few years ago. Domestic routes to Hawaii also have at least some business traffic (probably not much) paying the highest fares, while there would be almost none Europe-Hawaii. The much longer nonstop distance would also be more costly to operate especially at current fuel prices since you burn quite a bit of fuel just to carry the extra fuel required for a 15 hour sector. Rules would no doubt also require a double crew (2 relief pilots) and more than one night's crew rest at the turnaround point for both cockpit and cabin crew on such a long sector.

I think most carriers would find it more profitable to use the aircraft on 2 roundtrips on 6 to 8 hour sectors in the same time it would take the aircraft to get from Europe to Hawaii and back.

If Europe-Hawaii was lucrative, considering all the US-Europe open-skies markets that already exist, airlines would already be doing it. It seems that they consider it more lucrative to code-share with their alliance partners.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: BAKJet
Posted 2007-11-18 17:25:24 and read 12183 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 10):
Air New Zealand can't operate any more Auckland-London Heathrow services via California

Why not?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-18 17:26:33 and read 12177 times.



Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
No offense, but...Hawaii isn't really that great. Europeans have a lot of better places to go to in southern Europe/northern Africa, and even the Caribbean, than Hawaii. Add that to the 7200+ mi. trip LHR-HNL (compared to just over 4000 mi LHR-SXM as a random Caribbean destination I picked), and...well...not going to happen. Japanese go to Hawaii, Europeans don't.

No offence, but that's nonsense.

Firstly, Honolulu is less than an hour further away (440 miles further) from London than Singapore, yet Britons go in their masses to all sorts of places in Thailand, Malaysia or Indochina.

The only reason they don't go to Honolulu ANY MORE is because flying via LAX or ORD adds an extra five or six hours to the trip.

Secondly, more than twice as many Britons visited Honolulu in 1986 than 2006. Have you stopped to wonder why? The answer is that 747 classics and DC-10s needed to make refuelling stops across the Pacific, and passengers from Australia and New Zealand to the UK (and vice versa) jumped at the chance of a stopover in Hawaii. But now that those airplanes overfly Hawaii, those sorts of passengers are no longer catered for.

Lastly, as someone who has been to multiple Caribbean islands and all across Spain, Italy and France, I am astonished by your assertion. Most Caribbean islands are charmless barren American condo building sites (hello Aruba and St Maarten). Southern Europe is great, if you can afford high Euro prices, don't mind surly service and aren't upset by being pickpocketed. Waikiki may be built up but have you been to the other islands? Different strokes for different folks: Hawaii is a nice destination if you want to combine natural beauty with freedom from petty crime, beggars and hawkers trying to sell you postcards and souvenirs on the beach. And you can drink the water and need no shots, which isn't true in southeast Asia.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-18 17:33:17 and read 12163 times.

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 15):
Quoting Koruman (Reply 10):
Air New Zealand can't operate any more Auckland-London Heathrow services via California

Why not?

Because although the NZ-UK bilateral allows unlimited services into any LHR airport it specifies one service per day via LAX or SFO. This is also reflected in the NZ-US bilateral.

That is why Air New Zealand has just opened up AKL-YVR as a new service which will be extended on to London when there is demand for a third daily AKL-LHR flight, and it is why NZ5/6 AKL-LAX is highly likely to be extended on to Manchester.

The options for an eventual fifth and sixth daily flight from Auckland to the UK are Shanghai (except the transit experience there is so horrible that that is on indefinite hold) and, once the 787-9 is online, either AKL-PER-LHR or AKL-HNL-LHR. To be honest, when AKL-PVG was opened it was fully expected that it would soon continue on to LHR, but the check-in / immigration / security / transit situation at Shanghai is so aversive that Vancouver was conjured up as an alternative.

Demand between the UK and New Zealand is doubling every three years, and Air NZ's existing double daily 747-400 services will be replaced with smaller 777-300ERs, so current planning for Air New Zealand is for four daily services by 2011 and six daily services by 2013.

[Edited 2007-11-18 17:48:09]

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: LTU932
Posted 2007-11-18 19:56:16 and read 12003 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 16):
Firstly, Honolulu is less than an hour further away (440 miles further) from London than Singapore

You should have clarified this a bit to avoid confusion. According to the Great Circle Mapper, LHR-HNL is 6289 nm if flown as a North/Northwest-South/Southeast route, while LHR-SIN is 5879 nm if flown as a West-East route. That's a difference of 410 nm or roughly 472 statute miles.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2007-11-18 20:44:13 and read 11901 times.

Lets get some facts on the table regarding Hawaii travel from Europe which can help as a reality check to show its a rather thin market.

In 2006 of 7.6mil visitors to Hawaii mere 104,841 (1.3%) were from Europe. Of this 54.2% were from the UK, and 24.6% from Germany. Arrivals had strong seasonality with 2-1 swing from the peak month to lowest month.

Demographically wise, largest group was 25-40 years olds with wedding and honeymoon travel being one of the primary drivers. Average daily spending was $168, somewhat in the middle of the pact for all visitors, however on the lower end of international ones. Of European travellers 69% were 1st visitors, the 2nd lowest rate of return visitors. 71.3% stayed on Oahu (cheapest isle). Just over 1/2 were on air+hotel package holidays.

So, to sum up the European Hawaii traveller, they are a younger budget conscious traveller whom make the trip once in their lives often related to a honeymoon/wedding

So can a dedicated Europe-HNL flight be supported with only 287 average daily visitors from all over Europe with rather weak(cheap) demographics??

In addition I am near certain many of these travellers also add in US mainland destinations as part of their trips, so there is no guarantee they would even be interested in a nonstop only service even if you could corral them to a single European departure point.

Data source: HVCB

[Edited 2007-11-18 20:48:38]

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: DavidByrne
Posted 2007-11-18 21:43:35 and read 11582 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
Demand between the UK and New Zealand is doubling every three years, and Air NZ's existing double daily 747-400 services will be replaced with smaller 777-300ERs, so current planning for Air New Zealand is for four daily services by 2011 and six daily services by 2013.

I didn't realise that planning at NZ was down to this level of detail at this stage. I'm assuming that this info comes from a reliable source? Does the "6x daily by 2013" include all European services, or just LHR? I assume all Euro services? And is YVR accepted within NZ as the next transit point for Europe? If confirmed, this is an interesting timetable for NZ expansion - but before I invest too much emotional energy in it, I do want to be sure that it's kosher info!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service
Username: HMan
Posted 2007-11-18 23:47:50 and read 10956 times.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
So, to sum up the European Hawaii traveller, they are a younger budget conscious traveller whom make the trip once in their lives often related to a honeymoon/wedding

Here in Europe Hawaii vacations are usually considered very expensive. If you go to your travel agency you very well spend 5000 EUR for two weeks. That's why many people don't even consider it.

Airlines do offer good deals, but nobody seems do know about this. I went to Hawaii last year with a couple friends just for fun and spent 800 EUR for the flights TXL-JFK-LAX-OGG-LAX-JFK-TXL on DL. Everybody was astonished about this. Sure this trip was a pain in the a** as it took 40hrs out there and 22hrs on the return. A direct flight would cut the travel times significantly and could probably gain a lot "high yielding" economy traffic through the travel agencies.

On the other hand, I enjoyed not to have that many Germans or any other foreign group of tourists around. At least most of the time, until we got to Oahu  Wink.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Flying Belgian
Posted 2007-11-18 23:56:45 and read 10911 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 10):
Air New Zealand can't operate any more Auckland-London Heathrow services via California but can use other US intermediate points, and using Honolulu would work well from the following points of view:

I wasn't aware of that point. Can I ask you the reason why ?

Thx;

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2007-11-19 00:01:52 and read 10891 times.

How about HKG - HNL nonstop service!? That would be nice too. Perhaps with the 773ERs coming to CX, they can shift an A330 to daily HNL service!

Does Hawaii advertise itself to the European tourist--has it done anything to drive up tourism from there? If not, and with no major airline based there, it will most likely have to be a charter airline. Then the question becomes, what does Hawaii offer that the Caribbean or Mediterranean doesn't? What's the hook to have someone trapped in a 18hr flight (what would it be in a direct polar route???)?

There would not be a lot of premium traffic on that route either.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2007-11-19 00:38:33 and read 10726 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
That is ABSOLUTELY untrue.

Both AA and UA have repeatedly said that they serve Hawaii because it is massively profitable for them. Hawaii traffic may be leisure, but it is far from low yield. Try getting a cheap ticket to HNL on either.

NS

indeed...and as for hawaii residents going towards the mainland or europe, on average it is far more expensive for us to travel away from hawaii than it is for anyone else to travel to hawaii. almost double on a one way basis via many airlines on a HNL-west coast destination!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Bofredrik
Posted 2007-11-19 01:16:16 and read 10545 times.

How long would the total flying time incl (1 hour stop ?) be between
for example LHR-HNL-AKL compared with LHR-HKG-AKL?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: OHLHD
Posted 2007-11-19 01:29:44 and read 10767 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
At the current time there is enough traffic to support non-stop service at least five days a week between either LON or FRA and HNL.

Maybe there are enough people to travel this route but a non-stop would be much more expensive and the ultra longhaul segment is rather for business men then for the average tourist.

Would you want to step out of an aircraft after a 18h flight - half dead - and you need 3 days to start enjoying your holidays and after your flight back home you need another 3 days before you can start working again?

This would not be a money maker.  Smile

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-19 03:43:25 and read 10237 times.



Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 25):
How long would the total flying time incl (1 hour stop ?) be between
for example LHR-HNL-AKL compared with LHR-HKG-AKL?

Interesting that you should ask.

Auckland to London via Honolulu is 57 miles shorter than via Hong Kong (the existing NZ38/39) and 334 miles shorter than via Los Angeles (the existing NZ1/2).

No Air New Zealand aircraft will have the range until the 787-9 joins the fleet, but offering Honolulu as an additional routing spreads departures and arrivals between AKL and LHR around the clock. And the AKL-LHR through passengers fix up the problem of HNL being a low yield destination.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 20):
didn't realise that planning at NZ was down to this level of detail at this stage. I'm assuming that this info comes from a reliable source? Does the "6x daily by 2013" include all European services, or just LHR?

Very much so actually. The size of the 787-9 and 777-300ER orders, and the number of 777-200ERs to be retained from the lessor, has been predicated on anticipated growth in the NZ-UK market. It's why on the NZ Aviation thread I'm always so sceptical of flights to South America or India, because all the capacity is due to be used to the UK.

And my understanding is that the third or fourth flight would be a Manchester one.

Also, now that Air NZ services Honolulu only twice weekly you have to ask yourself why they bother to keep their own lounge and sales office. And my understanding is that the "Hong Kong solution" is under active consideration, namely fix a poorly performing route from AKL by extending it as a refuelling point en route to somewhere more profitable, which in Honolulu's case limits the options to Vancouver, Toronto or London due to cabotage rules.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: DavidByrne
Posted 2007-11-19 03:54:25 and read 10164 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 27):
Also, now that Air NZ services Honolulu only twice weekly you have to ask yourself why they bother to keep their own lounge and sales office. And my understanding is that the "Hong Kong solution" is under active consideration, namely fix a poorly performing route from AKL by extending it as a refuelling point en route to somewhere more profitable, which in Honolulu's case limits the options to Vancouver, Toronto or London due to cabotage rules.

I've always thought of HNL-YYZ as being potentially very difficult, given that NZ couldn't make YVR work via HNL. They won't want to extend to YVR in competition their own non-stop service (although, perhaps, 3x AKL-YVR nonstop, 4x via HNL might just work). But the Toronto market for NZ? Hmmm. Really only leaves London.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2007-11-19 04:53:15 and read 9877 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
and there are conventions

Yes, but how many attend those conventions from Europe? I suspect the numbers are very small.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-19 05:18:09 and read 9696 times.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 28):
always thought of HNL-YYZ as being potentially very difficult, given that NZ couldn't make YVR work via HNL. They won't want to extend to YVR in competition their own non-stop service (although, perhaps, 3x AKL-YVR nonstop, 4x via HNL might just work

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there. Auckland-San Francisco only opened 2 years ago as 3x weekly and has already been a daily service now for ages.

Air New Zealand's 777-200ER fleet is currently under-utilised, and I would guess that the current options being considered in the short-term are:
1) Keep AKL-YVR as 3x weekly, but add AKL-HNL-YVR as a codeshare with Air Canada on the other four days, on the basis that AC's conversion of YVR-HNL-SYD into YVR-SYD will sharply reduce its own YVR-HNL capacity, and probably guarantee a decent load for Air NZ.
2) Keep AKL-YVR as 3x weekly, and extend AKL-LAX on to Manchester 3x weekly.
3) Increase AKL-YVR to five times weekly, and continue every flight onto London as a codeshare with Air Canada.

Honolulu may regain Air New Zealand services to Vancouver next year, but any AKL-HNL-LHR service will have to wait for the 787-9s to arrive in 2011, and even then it will probably be a lower priority than Auckland-Perth-London simply because the Western Australian long-haul market is so much richer and higher yielding than the American one .

[Edited 2007-11-19 05:21:18]

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service
Username: Flylku
Posted 2007-11-19 05:24:36 and read 9658 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 1):
Traffic is one thing, yield is another. HNL is mainly vacation traffic, which is in general lower yielding. Lack of Business/First passengers will give you a hard time to operate the flight profitable. Routing your passengers through mainland hubs makes more sense.

This is spot on.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Both AA and UA have repeatedly said that they serve Hawaii because it is massively profitable for them. Hawaii traffic may be leisure, but it is far from low yield. Try getting a cheap ticket to HNL on either.

Perhaps, but UA serves many of the Hawaii routes with specially configured, high density 777s (two class) and the domestic version of the 767 (also two class). Indeed, the newly "wing-tipped" 757s are destined for Hawaii. Could / would a European carrier be willing to carve up their fleet in the same way?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Etops1
Posted 2007-11-19 05:52:37 and read 9448 times.

that's a real long haul . it's roughly 6296 nm between london anf honolulu going westbound. i am flying it right now on my flt sim using a virgin 747-400. i took off form lgw @ 830am lgw time. looking to arrive in hnl at around 930am hnl time give or take. flt time is around 14:55. over northern canada right now and it's still dark. talking to edmonton center.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: KL911
Posted 2007-11-19 06:08:32 and read 9340 times.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
I guess some people dont give up on the dream and fail to accept the many reasons why a service (particularly a scheduled one) is not right around the corner.

Last week when Arkefly ( Holland) received their new 737-800 an executive said that when they receive their 787's HNL is serious option to fly it to, together with LAS. That should be in 2010.

KL911

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-19 06:37:52 and read 9137 times.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
hell, even AA and UA both claim they only fly to Hawaii to keep the frequent flyers happy

This is one of the longest running fallacies on Anet. FF tickets are extremely limited to Hawaii on all airlines.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
Routes from Japan make money because of sheer volume.

you contradicted yourself here. Volume does not replace yield.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
There's no need to travel that far when you can get essentially the same experience in Jamaica or the Domincan Republic for much less money

You must actually be in the US not south Africa. You forgot Faro, Malaga, Ibiza, Tenerife, all of Greece, Turkey , etc etc etc. All of these destinations are within 4 hours flying time (orless) of northern Europe.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2007-11-19 06:44:00 and read 9078 times.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 34):
you contradicted yourself here. Volume does not replace yield.

No but in the absence of one, the other is acceptible if costs can be kept down.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 34):
This is one of the longest running fallacies on Anet.

Everyone I've spoken to in Revenue Management at AA and UA say the routes barely scrape by, and the only reason they keep them going is for the FF's. So, amusingly enough did HA and AQ when discussing interline agreements with AA and UA. Who am I to disbelieve them.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2007-11-19 06:49:18 and read 9030 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
At the current time there is enough traffic to support non-stop service at least five days a week between either LON or FRA and HNL.

Would you be able to demonstrate this with numbers and source?

Also, non-HNL will be no better off. For example, Maui traffic on LHR-HNL will have to compete with multiple one-stop connection possibilities through the US and even Canada.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-19 06:52:59 and read 9008 times.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
Everyone I've spoken to in Revenue Management at AA and UA say the routes barely scrape by, and the only reason they keep them going is for the FF's.

It would be nice to see some facts, since UA seems to tie up over a billion dollars of assets every day to fly to and from Hawaii, that is highly doubtful.

The FF statement is just false. for 8-12 FF seats you're going to send a 777 from DEN to HNL for 15 hours of r/t flight time and all that expensive fuel?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-19 08:48:44 and read 8280 times.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 34):
you contradicted yourself here. Volume does not replace yield.

Not totally true.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
No but in the absence of one, the other is acceptible if costs can be kept down.

Volume does indeed not replace yield, but if you have loadfactors close to a 100% yields can be lower to cover the costs. So if there wouldn't be as much passengers, total income would decrease to a point where they don't cover the costs anymore, and the flight makes a loss.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 37):
The FF statement is just false. for 8-12 FF seats you're going to send a 777 from DEN to HNL for 15 hours of r/t flight time and all that expensive fuel?

Why is it just false? It might very well be (and I'm not arguing the claim that UA/AA just operate HNL flights for FF pax) that the flight itself barely makes a profit (because of the low yields) but you still operate the flight to keep Frequent Fliers happy as they make a lot of money elsewhere in the system.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: B777a340fan
Posted 2007-11-19 09:58:58 and read 7774 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 16):
Firstly, Honolulu is less than an hour further away (440 miles further) from London than Singapore, yet Britons go in their masses to all sorts of places in Thailand, Malaysia or Indochina.

The only reason they don't go to Honolulu ANY MORE is because flying via LAX or ORD adds an extra five or six hours to the trip.


Hmmm...you can't really compare going to Thailand, Malaysia, and Indochina with Hawaii. First, like you said, the trip is shorter. Even if you're talking about an hour. Secondly, a lot of people go to those Asian countries because of business. Hawaii, on the other hand, is more vacation/leisure/ and "conferences". Thirdly, and most importantly, those Asian countries are a bigger bargain to Europeans b/c there are always promotions going on and let's face it, everything is a LOT cheaper than in Hawaii, where your bottled water will cost you $5. So while the tickets may be similarly priced, Hawaii always ends up being the more expensive option.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
No offense, but...Hawaii isn't really that great. Europeans have a lot of better places to go to in southern Europe/northern Africa, and even the Caribbean, than Hawaii.

While many people may be bashing on your comment, I think you're correct. Europeans have the Mediteranean Sea, Greece, Carribeans, Tahiti, Fiji, Mauritius, etc. that they could go to. Why go to Hawaii?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-19 10:02:45 and read 7741 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 38):
total income would decrease to a point where they don't cover the costs anymore, and the flight makes a loss.

That is called yield management. the airlines use very sophisticated algorithms to maximize yield and Hawaii flights are no exception.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 38):
but you still operate the flight to keep Frequent Fliers happy

You operate flights no make money. No route planner in the world will tell you operate to a city just to keep certain people happy.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: FlyLKU
Posted 2007-11-19 10:08:50 and read 7673 times.

One other wild card ... the strength of the Euro. Demand for travel to the U.S. as a tourist destination will grow in proportion to the weakness of the dollar. Europeans may look at Hawaii as a cheaper destination relative to regional tropical locations even if the airfare is a quite a bit higher.

Many of my Europeans colleques have said that if they were to go to Disney, they would go to Orlando Disney as it is much cheaper than Euro Disney in terms of total cost. Oh ... and the weather is better.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: COSPN
Posted 2007-11-19 10:10:36 and read 7651 times.

HKG and SIN would make more sense SQ used to fly to HNL guess droped because of low yeild...

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2007-11-19 10:13:09 and read 7637 times.



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
Tahiti



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
Why go to Hawaii?

If you go to Tahiti, then why not also Hawaii? Tahiti is just as commercial and expensive as Hawaii is.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2007-11-19 10:20:08 and read 7573 times.



Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 41):
One other wild card ... the strength of the Euro. Demand for travel to the U.S. as a tourist destination will grow in proportion to the weakness of the dollar

With US tourism arrivals about to set a record in 2007, conventional wisdom would indicate Hawaii would get its slice of the pie as well.
In reality however instead international Hawaii visitors for the first 9 months of 2007 is actually down 4.6%, with total international visitor days down even more drastic 9.5%. Country specific visitor stats show, UK visitors numbers are down 4.3%, while Germany was down 0.8% thru September '07.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Arrow
Posted 2007-11-19 10:27:10 and read 7524 times.



Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 24):
indeed...and as for hawaii residents going towards the mainland or europe, on average it is far more expensive for us to travel away from hawaii than it is for anyone else to travel to hawaii. almost double on a one way basis via many airlines on a HNL-west coast destination!

Interesting side note to this: there's a growing level of traffic on the YVR-HNL,OGG routes from Hawaiians wanting to ski at Whistler in the winter. I've run into Hawaiians on the ski lifts and on the flights. I don't have any numbers, but the anecdotal evidence is sure strong.

I also think Europeans interested in Hawaii's other islands (e.g Maui, Hawaii) could easily find routings like LHR-YVR-OGG of LHR-SFO-OGG a much more convenient way of getting there than a direct LHR-HNL trip with and inter-island leg tacked on. I go to Hawaii at least once a year, and I avoid Waikiki like the plague.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-19 10:29:53 and read 7509 times.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
That is called yield management. the airlines use very sophisticated algorithms to maximize yield and Hawaii flights are no exception.

It is, and I don't think I believe I said anything else. But the point I was trying to make it to explain why volume can offset a lower yield.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):

You operate flights no make money. No route planner in the world will tell you operate to a city just to keep certain people happy.

I never said the flights don't make money. I said they might (and I emphasize 'might') barely make a profit (but a profit anyway). If they would stop the flights to Hawaii, those customers might (again, might) switch to other carriers that do offer HNL/OGG etc service. That would cause you to loose income (and with FF, that might be very good income) elsewhere in the system. So operating a flight that only makes a small profit can be kept to keep passengers.

Same thing with connecting passengers. A flight itself may loose money but it can have a positive effect on the system as a whole.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: ORDagent
Posted 2007-11-19 10:31:21 and read 7498 times.

It is only a matter of time before we get Europe-Hawaii nonstops. The vactioning public in the U.K. and Germany in particular witll demand it. It started after the war with trips to the Costa Del Sol beaches and Greek Islands. Thailand and Southeast Asia followed. The Carribean then came into vogue. The tour companies are always looking for the next exotic local as the battle to keep vacationing public coming back. Today there are nonstop charters from all over the Carribean to all over the U.K. and Continental Europe. With First Choice and other charter/leisure airlines getting the equipment to do it I can't see how it won't happen on at least a seasonal basis.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: LGAtoIND
Posted 2007-11-19 10:35:33 and read 7460 times.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
You operate flights no make money. No route planner in the world will tell you operate to a city just to keep certain people happy.

You are correct, but realize that real life adds more complexities than your argument presents. For instance, perhaps if UA decided tomorrow to end all service to Hawaii, they would lose so many frequent fliers that they might start losing high yields on many other flights. Frequent fliers might transfer over to AA/DL with many Hawaii flights, causing UA in turn to lose money.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: MDL21483
Posted 2007-11-19 10:39:27 and read 7427 times.



Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 25):
How long would the total flying time incl (1 hour stop ?) be between
for example LHR-HNL-AKL compared with LHR-HKG-AKL?

Using an operating cruise speed of 490KTS:


LHR-HKG 57°(NE) 5209 nm 10:38
HKG-AKL 135°(SE) 4943 nm 10:05
total in-air time LHR-HKG-AKL: 20:43

LHR-HNL 338°(N) 6289 nm 12:50
HNL-AKL 204°(SW) 3814 nm 7:47
total in-air time LHR-HNL-AKL: 20:37

So not much of a saver in terms of flying times. It would still take a single frame upwards of 24 hrs for a round trip- and thats not including common factors like using/fighting any winds aloft and non-great circle routings over land

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-19 10:40:47 and read 7410 times.

IIRC, Western flew HNL-ANC-LGW.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2007-11-19 10:44:29 and read 7354 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 50):
IIRC, Western flew HNL-ANC-LGW.

That was a winner. A DC10-10 that usually had more Flight Attendants (double crew due to union agreement) than passengers on the LGW-ANC leg. Another one of WA's great routes, like LAX-MIA-NAS (NAS tag was added because the flight was so empty).

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2007-11-19 11:05:50 and read 7189 times.

Keep in mind also, Hawaii barely has East Coast flights

As is only CO manages a single daily EWR-HNL, while DL is doing 2x ATL-HNL. Thats it.
Look inland a bit and AA/UA do ORD/DFW-Hawaii however other then that Hawaii flying is all concentrated on the West Coast or Mountain states.

Its says very much that 42% of Hawaii visitors are from CA. Add in the rest of the Western US and Canadian West Coast the numbers grow significantly.

I remember a person in my NY office thinking I was crazy to suggest a 12 hour trip to Hawaii to him when they have Florida, Caribbean or Mexico destinations as close as 3 hours away.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2007-11-19 11:16:48 and read 7098 times.

It might make sense for NZ to try the market on a less than daily operation. I'm kind of surprised to see that NZ only flies AKL-HNL twice a week.

It would all depend on how much traffic they carry AKL-LHR through per day on their two one- stops (one via LAX and one via HKG) and local traffic on these routes (AKL-HKG, HKG-LHR, AKL-LAX & LAX-LHR).

Without other aircraft to deploy, maybe taking two frequencies per week during off-season (whenever that might be) to run the aircraft through HNL instead of LAX might make sense as LAX has two daily non-stops plus one-stops departing AKL on Fr, Su, Mo, We.
So, taking the AKL-LAX-LHR round trip on Su and We from AKL would provide 4 weekly roundtrips AKL-HNL, preserve 2 daily roundtrips 1-stops AKL-LHR, offer 2 services AKL-LAX daily and provide 2 services per week HNL-LHR. You'd think they could work the yield on twice per week. Of course, NZ could choose to operate via HNL on the heaviest day of their AKL-HKG-LHR round trips to provide more though hihg yield seats via HNL.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Sokol
Posted 2007-11-19 11:19:51 and read 7084 times.

From Europe to Hawaii (From: LHR-FRA-CDG-AMS) I would say the best way is one-stop via Anchorage ANC.

London to Honolulu
Frankfurt to Honolulu
Amsterdam to Honolulu
Paris to Honolulu

That's how World Airways MD-11s use to fly from Leipzig to ANC to Honolulu Military Charter.

British Airways can do that with B777-200ER, B747-400.
Lufthansa with Airbus A340's and B747-400.
Northwest Airlines from AMS with A330-300, or KLM B777-200ER and B747-400.

And this is a great way for European tourists to come for vacation in Hawaii and Alaska too.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-19 11:30:53 and read 7008 times.



Quoting Sokol (Reply 54):
That's how World Airways MD-11s use to fly from Leipzig to ANC to Honolulu Military Charter.

CO has done HHN-HNL and FRA-HNL for charters on the 772.

Our flights 61 (BRU), 57 (CDG), 81 (GVA), 69 (ARN), 21 (MAN), 75 (HAM), 123 (CPH) (to name a few) all connect to our flight 15 (EWR-HNL). Making one-stop to HNL for a lot of Europeans.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2007-11-19 11:48:37 and read 6866 times.



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
While many people may be bashing on your comment, I think you're correct. Europeans have the Mediteranean Sea, Greece, Carribeans, Tahiti, Fiji, Mauritius, etc. that they could go to. Why go to Hawaii?

Interesting responses. It is a fact that Hawaii is a leisure market, but yields are sometimes greater than average yield over the North Atlantic. First Class class fares are high, but often most of the seats are taken up by frequent flyers using reward tickets or upgrades. Load factors between the mainland and Hawaii average nearly 90%. When you add all the variables together, the routes are profitable and demand for Hawaii vacations continues to increase.

In regard to the above comment. For Europeans at the moment, Hawaii is a bargain. The Euro is nearly 2 to 1 compared to the US dollar, so you can divide the ground expenses by two. The average hotel night in Honolulu is $189, so for our friends for Europe that makes it under $100 a night. They could even get a five star hotel on the beach for around two hundred when you bring the exchange rate into the picture. Based on my travels, that's very reasonable for a destination that is clean, tropical, SAFE and friendly.

As to the question I asked, I agree non-stop service is probably a few years away, but the concept of NZ serving London via Hawaii is interesting and could prove equitable in my opinion. Solid traffic already flys between the two countries, it would take no longer than any other routing and provide an opportunity for many to see one of the most remote tropical areas of the world, they might otherwise not get to visit.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-19 11:49:22 and read 6866 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 55):
Our flights 61 (BRU), 57 (CDG), 81 (GVA), 69 (ARN), 21 (MAN), 75 (HAM), 123 (CPH) (to name a few) all connect to our flight 15 (EWR-HNL). Making one-stop to HNL for a lot of Europeans.

The problem is though, that whilst you might get a few Y pax doing that, the average year-round fare for, let's say, MAN-HNL on CO in J is approx. £2,800 or $5,600. (I say "average" before everyone chimes in with dates they've found cheaper).

Immediately, places like the caribbean are not only more accessible and quicker to get to (you don't waste TWO days travelling home either), but more often than not, they are 50% less expensive.

Europe - HNL will come one day, and my money is still on Virgin being the first, but at the moment the economics just aren't there to make it justifiable.

Shamu

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-19 11:50:51 and read 6849 times.



Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 48):
For instance, perhaps if UA decided tomorrow to end all service to Hawaii, they would lose so many frequent fliers that they might start losing high yields on many other flights.

there are literally 100's of variables that go into route and yield management. FF desire for a route is just one very small piece of the pie.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-19 11:57:01 and read 6793 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 56):
The Euro is nearly 2 to 1 compared to the US dollar, so you can divide the ground expenses by two.

I want to know where you buy your Euro's as I would be happy to get my dollars there for my next vacation (not Hawaii, sorry). The rate is 1:1.46 EUR:USD, so your calculations are a bit off. It's just waiting for the 1:2 though, can't take too long if the dollar continues it's crash (but that is for another topic).

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-19 12:33:07 and read 6572 times.



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
If you go to Tahiti, then why not also Hawaii? Tahiti is just as commercial and expensive as Hawaii is.

I guess it's personal.... I would choose Tahiti over Hawaii any day. White beaches and clear blue water. Ahhhh.

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 56):
In regard to the above comment. For Europeans at the moment, Hawaii is a bargain. The Euro is nearly 2 to 1 compared to the US dollar, so you can divide the ground expenses by two. The average hotel night in Honolulu is $189, so for our friends for Europe that makes it under $100 a night.

True, but we can't really deduce on that until couple months from now. Maybe they will start going to Hawaii, who knows? Point being, there currently isn't enough demand to warrant a non-stop, otherwise, someone like AF or BA would've done it already. If you can have a direct flight from CDG-SXM you could potentially have LHR-HNL or CDG-HNL or FRA-HNL one day, but the demand isn't there.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-11-19 12:52:00 and read 6544 times.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 52):
Its says very much that 42% of Hawaii visitors are from CA.

Which is why DL is shifting service to the outer islands away from SLC to LAX.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 52):
Add in the rest of the Western US and Canadian West Coast the numbers grow significantly.

The Dominican Republic has siphoned away a significant chunk of the Canadian crowd over the last few years. Even with the Canadian $ on par with the U.S. $, it isn't like it was in the 1980s or much of the 1990s.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 52):
I remember a person in my NY office thinking I was crazy to suggest a 12 hour trip to Hawaii to him when they have Florida, Caribbean or Mexico destinations as close as 3 hours away.

I can only think that this comes into play with Americans, since we take shorter vacations (typically 7-10 days), and time in the air plays a factor in deciding destinations. It's only in the Pacific Time Zone that Hawaii becomes closer to the North American mainland than the Caribbean. I also might add that Canadians typically go for 14-18 days on vacation and people from the U.K. go 21+ days. I think the latter is why so many a.netters from across the pond start one of these threads as often as they do.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-19 13:00:34 and read 6519 times.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 61):
people from the U.K. go 21+ days

While I'm not from the UK, that might be a bit much. 7-14 day vacations are the most common in western Europe.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-11-19 13:20:07 and read 6468 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 62):
-14 day vacations are the most common in western Europe.

Perhaps from CDG/AMS-SXM that would most likely be correct, but typically when the U.K. folks go to the D.R., it usually lasts 3 weeks if not more for a winter-time tropical reprieve. Hawaii is about as far from western Europe as any tropical getaway in the northern hemisphere will be. I won't hesitate to compare such a vacation with someone from the U.S. going to the Maldives for such. We don't see any direct scheduled service from a U.S. gateway airport to that beautiful spot out in the Indian ocean just south of the sub-continent, and I can only surmount that demand to Hawaii from Europe would be somewhat similar. I will concede however that we are more likely to see LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA-HNL service before we'll see JFK/LAX-Maldives though.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service
Username: Nzrich
Posted 2007-11-19 13:35:10 and read 6452 times.



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
Hmmm...you can't really compare going to Thailand, Malaysia, and Indochina with Hawaii. First, like you said, the trip is shorter. Even if you're talking about an hour. Secondly, a lot of people go to those Asian countries because of business. Hawaii, on the other hand, is more vacation/leisure/ and "conferences". Thirdly, and most importantly, those Asian countries are a bigger bargain to Europeans b/c there are always promotions going on and let's face it, everything is a LOT cheaper than in Hawaii, where your bottled water will cost you $5. So while the tickets may be similarly priced, Hawaii always ends up being the more expensive option.

Yes but the one advantage of NZ operating the route is if they cant fill the seats AKL-HNL and HNL-LHR than there is a massive market to fill those seats AKL-LHR with just a stopover in HNL so NZ does not have to sell seat off at low yielding rates ..

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 53):
It might make sense for NZ to try the market on a less than daily operation. I'm kind of surprised to see that NZ only flies AKL-HNL twice a week.

You only have to look at where NZ is positioned .HNL for NZ is a holiday in the sun ..Closer and 99% of the time cheaper we have the pacific islands Fiji , New Caledonia , Cook Is, Samoa , Tonga , Vanuatu and even if on sale Tahiti .. Also there are the Queensland beaches in Australia .. All these are much closer than HNL and usually cheaper .. that is why HNL is just twice a week .. It used to be daily and had connections to Tonga Cook islands Fiji LAX and i think Samoa also but that all went when the LAX-HNL service was axed ..

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 53):

Without other aircraft to deploy, maybe taking two frequencies per week during off-season (whenever that might be) to run the aircraft through HNL instead of LAX might make sense as LAX has two daily non-stops plus one-stops departing AKL on Fr, Su, Mo, We.
So, taking the AKL-LAX-LHR round trip on Su and We from AKL would provide 4 weekly roundtrips AKL-HNL, preserve 2 daily roundtrips 1-stops AKL-LHR, offer 2 services AKL-LAX daily and provide 2 services per week HNL-LHR. You'd think they could work the yield on twice per week. Of course, NZ could choose to operate via HNL on the heaviest day of their AKL-HKG-LHR round trips to provide more though hihg yield seats via HNL.

LAX is more profitable than HNL so swapping services out of LAX and putting them on HNL wont happen ..If HNL got more services with NZ and onwards to UK it will be after the 787 arrives in our fleet .. I think you would also see more Europeans looking at HNL and taking a stop over in HNL on their way to NZ ..As that would be a inexpensive way of seeing both places ..

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 57):
Europe - HNL will come one day, and my money is still on Virgin being the first, but at the moment the economics just aren't there to make it justifiable.

I agree it will come but i think its more likely to be NZ as NZ wont be relying on HNL as an end destination .. NZ would be able to then target the higher yielding passengers as they can fill what is left over with AKL-LHR passengers .. VS on the other hand would have to fill the plane with passengers destined just for Hawaii .. I think the mix NZ would have would be mean the flight could easily operate daily with good loads ..

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-19 13:35:29 and read 6449 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 57):
The problem is though, that whilst you might get a few Y pax doing that, the average year-round fare for, let's say, MAN-HNL on CO in J is approx. £2,800 or $5,600. (I say "average" before everyone chimes in with dates they've found cheaper).

Immediately, places like the Caribbean are not only more accessible and quicker to get to (you don't waste TWO days travelling home either), but more often than not, they are 50% less expensive.

Sure. But Air New Zealand charges 3,100 pounds for a Business Class return to Australia or New Zealand (using Virgin's Upper Class suite) and the fare is the same whether you route via Hong Kong, Los Angeles or Honolulu (which currently requires a connection at LAX).

If you were a UK-based passenger flying Business Class to AKL or SYD, and had the option of stopover at HNL without it costing extra or requiring a detour via LAX or an additional leg to your travel it would be a compelling option. It certainly was in the 70s and 80s when the plane was stopping there to refuel anyway.

Part of the problem is that a minimal effort is made to market Hawaii in the UK or New Zealand, so it's lower on people's radar than destinations like the Dominican Republic which many of us wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2007-11-19 13:38:38 and read 6445 times.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 52):
As is only CO manages a single daily EWR-HNL, while DL is doing 2x ATL-HNL. Thats it.
Look inland a bit and AA/UA do ORD/DFW-Hawaii however other then that Hawaii flying is all concentrated on the West Coast or Mountain states.

If you are in HNL tomorrow Nov 20 at 423p look up and you will see NW809 a A332 coming in non-stop from MSP.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2007-11-19 13:44:20 and read 6435 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 65):
If you were a UK-based passenger flying Business Class to AKL or SYD, and had the option of stopover at HNL without it costing extra or requiring a detour via LAX or an additional leg to your travel it would be a compelling option. It certainly was in the 70s and 80s when the plane was stopping there to refuel anyway.

Yes, I'm with you on that point. If I was travelling to AKL or SYD, had time to spare, and there was the option of stopping over for a few days at HNL, then I'm sure I would.

However, that is not attracting NEW business to the AKL/SYD route, just offering an stop-off to those already travelling on that route.

My point was that for half the price of the airfare from UK to HNL, there is an almost infinitesimal number of cheaper options, including the carribean at 50% of the cost to HNL.

Until the economics of the route improve dramatically, that will be a real hard nut to crack.

Shamu

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Bluewave 707
Posted 2007-11-19 14:13:08 and read 6411 times.

Isn't UAL934/935 a HNL-LAX-LGW segment?

I have come across quite a few European visitors here in Honolulu, maybe not in droves, but they do travel here.


Lufthansa tried a sample flight from FRA to HNL with an A340, but was a one-time thing.

BOAC and UTA used to have rtw flights stopping @ HNL.




Interesting to see when airlines from the People's Republic of China start flying here ... we get their 737 delivery flights ... but that's about it.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Itsnotfinals
Posted 2007-11-19 14:24:48 and read 6382 times.



Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 68):
Isn't UAL934/935 a HNL-LAX-LGW segment?

it is an aircraft change in LAX. the LHR-LAX portion has the international Biz. the HNL flight is domestic config with no J and domestic F.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Koruman
Posted 2007-11-19 16:10:33 and read 6279 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 67):
If I was travelling to AKL or SYD, had time to spare, and there was the option of stopping over for a few days at HNL, then I'm sure I would.

However, that is not attracting NEW business to the AKL/SYD route, just offering an stop-off to those already travelling on that route.

That's my point really. We know from the experience of the 70s and 80s compared with today that Europeans will visit Hawaii if it is a convenient stopover to or from Australia and New Zealand, but they won't travel all that way in significant numbers just to go to Hawaii.

And that is why Air New Zealand is the best vehicle for non-stop UK-Hawaii flights. They just need to get passengers between Australia / New Zealand and LHR with an intermediate fueling point. They want one of their flights to use LAX, so that they can sell separate AKL-LAX and LAX-LHR tickets, but for the rest of their flights the decision as to whether to transit Hong Kong, Shanghai, Perth, Vancouver or Honolulu depends more on which hours of arrival and departure improve their schedules, not which have most point-to-point traffic.

Shanghai offers similar scheduling to Hong Kong, and Vancouver offers similar scheduling to Los Angeles, so sooner or later Perth or Honolulu (which offer morning departures from AKL and LHR) will become realistic options.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 67):
My point was that for half the price of the airfare from UK to HNL, there is an almost infinitesimal number of cheaper options, including the carribean at 50% of the cost to HNL.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 67):
Until the economics of the route improve dramatically, that will be a real hard nut to crack.

Yes, I agree, LHR-HNL is not a viable flight. But LHR-HNL-AKL is.

(In my psychotic breaks, I sometimes wonder whether Air New Zealand should get their own fleet of 777-200LRs - they have 23 unused purchase rights - and operate a dedicated terminal and security at HNL and operate coordinated flights from BNE, MEL, SYD, AKL and CHC to LHR, MAN, BHX, FRA and DUB. It would only take an hour longer than other airlines' routes from Australia to the UK, but by offering multiple UK destinations it would shorten people's overall journeys. Emirates et al have the problem of flying via the Middle East - which ain't going to get better - and while Air NZ could use HKG as a cheaper scissor hub that would place it at the mercy of the local administration and Cathay Pacific's vested interest, and it would never be allowed to happen. I wonder this for a couple of minutes, and then I wake up. It's a shame really, because Air NZ has a world-beating product. Most people only really go to Dubai because Emirates offer it as a free stopover, ditto Singapore, and if people in the UK and Australia had to choose between two flights to Australia of similar cost and duration offering a stopover in either Dubai or Hawaii a large proportion would pick Hawaii.)

[Edited 2007-11-19 16:15:09]

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2007-11-19 16:30:33 and read 6238 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
dedicating 2 aircraft to a low yield route like with virtually no business traffic would be a poor use of resources

That's only necessary if the route went daily. I'm sure that a 3x/week might be considered until the route proved itself, thereby requiring one aircraft only.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2007-11-19 17:00:39 and read 6197 times.



Quoting Arrow (Reply 45):
I go to Hawaii at least once a year, and I avoid Waikiki like the plague.

I live on the other side of oahu and i avoid it like the plague as well!!

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 52):
As is only CO manages a single daily EWR-HNL, while DL is doing 2x ATL-HNL. Thats it.
Look inland a bit and AA/UA do ORD/DFW-Hawaii however other then that Hawaii flying is all concentrated on the West Coast or Mountain states.

In all fairness, CO has IAH-HNL flights as well.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 66):
If you are in HNL tomorrow Nov 20 at 423p look up and you will see NW809 a A332 coming in non-stop from MSP.

I think that this is confirming my aero passion to the level of almost dork/geek status (as i am proud to admit) because i will likely be there to see it tomorrow afternoon! Lagoon Dr. lots beware!! LoL!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2007-11-19 17:15:18 and read 6171 times.



Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 68):
BOAC and UTA used to have rtw flights stopping @ HNL.

As did JAL when they operated HND-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR as part of their RTW route, with 5th freedom rights USA-LHR. I think that route ended about the time 747s replaced DC-8s.

QF also operated RTW via HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR in 707 and Super Constellation days.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: LGAtoIND
Posted 2007-11-19 17:46:52 and read 6125 times.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 58):
there are literally 100's of variables that go into route and yield management. FF desire for a route is just one very small piece of the pie.

I completely agree with you. I was simply pointing out that it IS a small piece, and involves some consideration when planning routes.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: BAKJet
Posted 2007-11-19 17:53:23 and read 6114 times.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
Quoting BAKJet (Reply 15):
Quoting Koruman (Reply 10):
Air New Zealand can't operate any more Auckland-London Heathrow services via California

Why not?

Because although the NZ-UK bilateral allows unlimited services into any LHR airport it specifies one service per day via LAX or SFO. This is also reflected in the NZ-US bilateral.

That is why Air New Zealand has just opened up AKL-YVR as a new service which will be extended on to London when there is demand for a third daily AKL-LHR flight, and it is why NZ5/6 AKL-LAX is highly likely to be extended on to Manchester.

The options for an eventual fifth and sixth daily flight from Auckland to the UK are Shanghai (except the transit experience there is so horrible that that is on indefinite hold) and, once the 787-9 is online, either AKL-PER-LHR or AKL-HNL-LHR. To be honest, when AKL-PVG was opened it was fully expected that it would soon continue on to LHR, but the check-in / immigration / security / transit situation at Shanghai is so aversive that Vancouver was conjured up as an alternative.

Demand between the UK and New Zealand is doubling every three years, and Air NZ's existing double daily 747-400 services will be replaced with smaller 777-300ERs, so current planning for Air New Zealand is for four daily services by 2011 and six daily services by 2013.

OK, I thought that it was saying that NZ was cancelling the LAX-LHR or that they couldn't do it anymore.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Eghansen
Posted 2007-11-19 17:59:02 and read 6107 times.



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
While many people may be bashing on your comment, I think you're correct. Europeans have the Mediteranean Sea, Greece, Carribeans, Tahiti, Fiji, Mauritius, etc. that they could go to. Why go to Hawaii?

Hawaii is and probably always will be a great getaway for residents of California and the surrounding states. Many people I know own time-share condos in Hawaii. Not only are there the majors (AAL, UAL, DAL, NWA) along with regionals (HAL, AAH), but there are also cheap flights from Oakland and LAX from ATA.

Calfornians love Hawaii and most of the people I meet in Hawaii are from California.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2007-11-19 19:23:57 and read 6048 times.



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 76):
Calfornians love Hawaii and most of the people I meet in Hawaii are from California.

Tis true. People from around here speak of going to Hawaii and Mexico all the time. When I lived in NY, I would hear about Florida and the Caribbean more often.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-11-19 20:22:05 and read 6002 times.



Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 72):
In all fairness, CO has IAH-HNL flights as well.

If one had the time to sit down and research all scheduled routes from the U.S. mainland to the Hawaiian Islands, probably 2 of 3 would originate from the westernmost states with high volume passenger airports; CA (LAX, SFO, OAK), OR (PDX), WA (SEA), NV (LAS), AZ (PHX), UT (SLC), CO (DEN).

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: CitationJet
Posted 2007-11-19 20:50:49 and read 5979 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 62):
While I'm not from the UK, that might be a bit much. 7-14 day vacations are the most common in western Europe.

I have talked to a few Europeans who are amazed that Americans take 3 or 4 day cruises from Florida.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Eghansen
Posted 2007-11-19 21:09:56 and read 5945 times.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 78):
If one had the time to sit down and research all scheduled routes from the U.S. mainland to the Hawaiian Islands, probably 2 of 3 would originate from the westernmost states with high volume passenger airports; CA (LAX, SFO, OAK), OR (PDX), WA (SEA), NV (LAS), AZ (PHX), UT (SLC), CO (DEN).

If you look through the LA Times or San Diego Union travel sections, nearly all the package deals are Hawaii or Cabo/Puerto Vallarta/Mazatlan. It's not just the Californians like to go to Hawaii, but many people I know have been there 10 or 15 times. I have met families here (San Diego) who go to Hawaii every year, stay in the same time-share or hotel every year and book their room or condo for the next year when they are there. It is particularly popular for Californians at Christmas.

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 79):
I have talked to a few Europeans who are amazed that Americans take 3 or 4 day cruises from Florida.

Americans don't have long vacations like Europeans. I took a 13-day South American cruise and there were young European families while the Americans were mostly retirees. The only reason I can take such trips is because I teach school and get substantial blocks of time off from work during the holidays and summer.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-11-19 21:45:44 and read 5907 times.



Quoting B777a340fan (Reply 39):
Hawaii, where your bottled water will cost you $5

HUH?? I think the only bottled water that is $5 is the 5 gallon size.

Plus, you don't need to drink bottled water here because we have the BEST tap water on earth....tastes better than bottled IMHO.

Like someone said, Hawai'i is safe, requires no shots, and the water won't leave you with the runs, or a bad taste in your mouth.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: COSPN
Posted 2007-11-19 22:06:04 and read 5894 times.

Good Old CO 15 SYD-HNL-DEN-LGW DC-10-30 !!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Arrow
Posted 2007-11-19 22:17:57 and read 5881 times.



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 81):
Plus, you don't need to drink bottled water here because we have the BEST tap water on earth....tastes better than bottled IMHO.

No you don't. It won't hurt you, but it has a strong taste of whatever is put in to make it potable. I love Hawaii, but not the tap water. For one thing, no surprise, it isn't cold.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-11-19 23:39:24 and read 5838 times.



Quoting Arrow (Reply 83):
No you don't. It won't hurt you, but it has a strong taste of whatever is put in to make it potable. I love Hawaii, but not the tap water. For one thing, no surprise, it isn't cold.

OK....the water here is PURE. It filters through thousands of feet of porous lava rock over 30+ years before enterign the water supply. Our water has NOTHING added to it to make it potable. Trust me. If you feel like reading the water quality reports which back this up go to this site and read about our water "that is among the best in the world" www.hbws.org/

O'ahu is a miracle of water if you think about it. 604 square miles and it has enough water underground to sustain 1 million people. Truly miraculous when you think about it.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: BlueWave 707
Posted 2007-11-20 00:50:35 and read 5799 times.

Aloha73G is right! We got the best tap water!

The only time you'll pay $5 for a small bottle of water is at some tourist trap location that tries to market the water as a goodwill gesture (by an NPO).

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 06:29:52 and read 5708 times.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 76):
Hawaii is and probably always will be a great getaway for residents of California and the surrounding states. Many people I know own time-share condos in Hawaii. Not only are there the majors (AAL, UAL, DAL, NWA) along with regionals (HAL, AAH), but there are also cheap flights from Oakland and LAX from ATA.

Calfornians love Hawaii and most of the people I meet in Hawaii are from California.

Yes, I agree. A lot of visitors, if not most, are Americans. But we're talking about Europeans here. I don't think airlines are going to create non-stop flights to HNL from Europe b/c Americans visit a lot  ...although I would gladly do IAD-CDG-HNL for kicks.

[Edited 2007-11-20 06:30:30]

[Edited 2007-11-20 06:30:51]

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Arrow
Posted 2007-11-20 09:37:00 and read 5589 times.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but since I rarely go to Oahu I checked to see how I could be tasting something in the water that isn't there. This comes from Maui water board. It's not a big knock, and I never buy bottled water, but I don't like the taste of Maui's water. Maybe I've pulled too much water from clear mountain streams here in Western Canada. And yes, Vancouver's water is also treated to some extent, depending on time of year and the power of rainstorms.


"As the sun shines on the Pacific Ocean, water evaporates into clouds, and the tradewinds from the northeast bring the clouds to the islands. The rain forest in the mountains "catch" the clouds and the cool mountain air condenses the clouds to form rain. In some areas up to 300 inches of rain falls each year! The rain does many things -- it feeds plants, evaporates, and also flows back into the ocean.
Some of the rain flows into streams and ditches, and some percolates down to underground aquifers (huge water volumes formed by the fresh water floating on salt water and moving in volcanic rock voids). The aquifers provide most of the water for Central Maui, East Maui, Molokai, and parts of Lahaina.

Groundwater, or water from the underground aquifers, is naturally filtered by lava rocks. It's about as pure as it gets. The Department of Water Supply pumps the water up to the surface, treats it to provide disinfection, and delivers it to your tap.

In a few areas there are pesticide residuals in untreated water. The Department of Water Supply uses a simple technology that's similar to what people use to treat their aquariums. It's called Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) and it removes the pesticide residuals to nondetectable levels, making the water safe to drink. The DWS has GAC facilities at Napili Well 'A' and at the Hamakuapoko Wells (which are not in use).

Upcountry relies on water from East Maui's streams and ditches. Parts of Lahaina also get water from the streams and ditches that flow from the West Maui Mountains. This water is called surface water. Surface water must be filtered first so we have three treatment plants Upcountry, two in Lahaina, and one in Wailuku. Sometimes there are bacteria in the water like giardia and liptospirosis but the treatment plants take all that out so the water is safe to drink. The water is also disinfected and then distributed to our customers.

All of our treatment and disinfection processes follow the federal government's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) rules. The Hawaii State Department of Health enforces these rules.

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2007-11-20 09:55:16 and read 5574 times.



Quoting Arrow (Reply 87):
Maui's water

I wasn't talking about Maui's water. Maui's major resort areas (Lahaina, Ka'anapali, etc) get most of their water from reservoisr which are treated....I also don't like the taste of their water, but I never stay at resorts on Maui. The water on O'ahu is the best.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-11-20 10:16:01 and read 5531 times.

Could we get back on topic?

Topic: RE: When Will We See Europe - HNL Non-stop Service?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2007-11-20 11:21:34 and read 5490 times.



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 80):
If you look through the LA Times or San Diego Union travel sections, nearly all the package deals are Hawaii or Cabo/Puerto Vallarta/Mazatlan. It's not just the Californians like to go to Hawaii, but many people I know have been there 10 or 15 times. I have met families here (San Diego) who go to Hawaii every year, stay in the same time-share or hotel every year and book their room or condo for the next year when they are there. It is particularly popular for Californians at Christmas.

My wife is from southwest Alberta (YQL), and she has been to Hawaii 9 times between ages 14 to 26. Western Canadians (mostly from B.C. & Alberta) used to go in droves until the currency exchange became so unfavorable. Now even western Canadians go to the Dominican Republic in droves since it financially is a better deal for them, even though the currency exchange is now on par with the U.S.
Keeping on topic, there are plenty of one stop connections between Western Europe and Hawaii here in the states, especially the western states, and also YVR offers this as well.


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