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Topic: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Lobster
Posted 2007-11-19 20:40:22 and read 15469 times.

"Pilot arrested at MSP airport for being drunk, carrying weapon"

"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"


http://kstp.com/article/stories/S262046.shtml?cat=1



WTF was he thinking? Kiss his aviation career bye-bye  banghead 

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: HUbsnotDubs
Posted 2007-11-19 20:43:08 and read 15469 times.

This is always sad, but so avoidable.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Nuori5084
Posted 2007-11-19 20:58:05 and read 15377 times.



Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 1):
This is always sad, but so avoidable.

Sad? You've got to be kidding.




We all have choices in life and being responsible should be number one. I have no remorse for this guy.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2007-11-19 21:02:56 and read 15363 times.

Somehow he gets approved to carry a gun in the flight deck, which means he had to pass a lot of screening. But then does the stupid thing of drinking and then flying. He'll watch his life go down the crapper.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Juventus
Posted 2007-11-20 03:50:45 and read 14918 times.



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
WTF was he thinking?

That's the problem, he wasn't.

All he can do at this point is enroll at AA, get some help, prove he is getting help, and ask for forgiveness. If he is forgiven, he gets a second chance, but he will stand on very thin ice for the rest of his aviation life. If he's not, his pilot-life is over. Nobody else will hire him.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2007-11-20 04:06:42 and read 14875 times.

Maybe he can get hired in Saudi Arabia for domestic flights. That should eliminate the drinking.  Wink

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Contrails
Posted 2007-11-20 05:10:20 and read 14743 times.



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 2):
We all have choices in life and being responsible should be number one. I have no remorse for this guy.

I agree, but I'd hate to be him when he woke up the next morning.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Boeing12345
Posted 2007-11-20 06:24:33 and read 14532 times.

Another week of Midwest Airlines making the news.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 06:25:01 and read 14533 times.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
He'll watch his life go down the crapper.

Who cares about his life? He needs to care about the hundreds of other lives he's responsible for.

Quoting Juventus (Reply 4):
All he can do at this point is enroll at AA, get some help, prove he is getting help, and ask for forgiveness.

Sorry, call me harsh, but I don't believe he should be rehired. You have one shot at it, you blow it, you blow it. What tells you he won't do it again? Do you want to risk it? What if something had happened to the passenger?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2007-11-20 06:33:45 and read 14482 times.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):
Sorry, call me harsh, but I don't believe he should be rehired. You have one shot at it, you blow it, you blow it. What tells you he won't do it again? Do you want to risk it? What if something had happened to the passenger?

Suggest you do some research on the FAA HIMS program. Seems as though the professionals disagree with you.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 06:35:50 and read 14470 times.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
Suggest you do some research on the FAA HIMS program.

Will do, but care to elaborate?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-20 06:59:32 and read 14346 times.



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 2):
We all have choices in life and being responsible should be number one. I have no remorse for this guy.

Yes, and I agree. But it is a shame that one VERY stupid act destroyes his life.

Look how many drunk drivers are allowed to enter treatment and get drivers liscence back.

Isn't there some way for him to pull himself into treatment and come back to work?

Though it should be with checks etc for the rest of his flying career.

A link from the Ohio State Bar about the FAA HIMS program:

http://www.ohiobar.org/pub/lycu/index.asp?articleid=416


Dave

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2007-11-20 07:10:49 and read 14156 times.



Quoting Juventus (Reply 4):

All he can do at this point is enroll at AA

You dont really "enroll" at AA, but rather just show up and be with other people who also have ZERO control over their drinking and take suggestions from them on how to live your life free of such bondage!

But ,yeah, poor guy has prbably blown alot of opportunity and it appears to me from this forum that many more crews than realized have similar issues!

OK , flame me now, but I think union issues may sometimes get in the way of recognizing early on that a problem exists and that intervention could save some carreers, like having other members police each other during RON's or something , but I suppose that would be too intrusive,, NO easy solutions but the penalties for this carreer are quite ruinous!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Jpax
Posted 2007-11-20 07:32:36 and read 13810 times.

Bump +1 for the seniority list.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: BlueSkys
Posted 2007-11-20 07:37:26 and read 13743 times.



Quoting Juventus (Reply 4):
All he can do at this point is enroll at AA, get some help, prove he is getting help, and ask for forgiveness

The problem is AA does not help, and yet people are forced to go. AA tries to take away peoples will power, and tell them they are 'powerless' to their 'disease'. And no matter how long you have abstained from alcohol they still tell you that you are an alcoholic! "Hi, I am bill and i have not drank for 15 years, i am an alcoholic" NO YOUR NOT BILL!!!

I have seen peoples lives get really messed up because of AA, it ruines more lives then it helps, and those it helps it does not help properly.

If someone needs to quit, just stop drinking. There are really good methods of quitting addictions, AA is not one of them.



On Topic, the guy made a very stupid mistake! The problem is, until most people get caught, they rationalize it to themselves that they are not doing anything wrong.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 727forever
Posted 2007-11-20 07:42:55 and read 13641 times.

Uh, did any of you actually read the article. Less of what his attorney said, but more of what the company said at the end of the article. Paraphrasing, but the Midwest Airlines spokesmand said that the company limit is .02 pBAC and that the pilot blew less than that.

<
Hogan said no charges have been filed. A call to the airport police department seeking more details of the arrest was not returned.

The pilot has not flown since that day and will not fly until Midwest completes an investigation into the incident, said Michael Brophy, the airline's spokesman. The airline followed its standard policy of removing him and launching an investigation, he said.

"The safety of our passengers and our employees is critical to us, so when these kind of issues arise we take them seriously and investigate them and take immediate action as appropriate," Brophy said. "But because we haven't completed the investigation we can't draw any conclusions as to how this is going to turn out."

Midwest's alcohol policy sets a limit of 0.02 for pilots, Brophy said, noting the pilot's blood alcohol level came in below that.

He would not say if the pilot was being paid pending his removal from flying.>> From the KSTP.com article.


Why are we always ready to hang the pilot in our society before we actually investigate to see if there is cause. We take the word of the person just hired from McDonalds to make sure that your shoes are in the little gray tub as the gospel. I guess I shouldn't be surprised on these boards, after all we start a new argument every week on when NW will retire the DC-9s.

727forever

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Milesrich
Posted 2007-11-20 07:51:06 and read 13513 times.

727forever's Post is the only one that makes sense. The guy's BAC was less than .02. He wasn't drunk. He wasn't under the influence. Mouthwash, or breath spray could trigger that reading. One beer will create about a .03 to .04 or more. The guy who should be fired is the TSA schmuck who said he smelled like alcohol. No way could he have smelled like alcohol with a reading that low. Are Midwest's pilots non union? Where is ALPA on this? And why was he arrested? In Most States, a BAC below .04 is conclusive proof someone is not under the influence, i.e., they cannot be arrested or prosecuted. Here, the pilot's BAC level was less than HALF that. I don't want to be suspended, but before you kids start trashing this guy, read the article. The guy's career is not in the toilet.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 07:51:56 and read 13512 times.



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 14):
it ruines more lives then it helps



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 14):
and those it helps it does not help properly.

Where are the stats for these allegations? It would definitely help your statements if it was backed with facts.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777-200
Posted 2007-11-20 07:53:01 and read 13478 times.



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

Where did that quote come from then?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Airfoilsguy
Posted 2007-11-20 07:59:53 and read 13391 times.



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
727forever's Post is the only one that makes sense.

The article is bullshit. When this thread was originally posted the article stated that the pilot blew a .15. the article has since changed to say less then .01. Once again the media has screwed up.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 08:03:20 and read 13318 times.



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 19):
Once again the media has screwed up.

The media never get it right. It comes down to selling a story to the public to get the ratings, at the cost of poor reporting. At least the media is consistent about this.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-11-20 08:05:02 and read 13281 times.



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
"Pilot arrested at MSP airport for being drunk, carrying weapon"

Why was this thread altered? Because no where does it mention a gun and the pilot is probably an FFDO.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2007-11-20 08:31:47 and read 12890 times.

"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

Where did that quote come from then?[/quote]

Not from that article. There is also nothing about a weapon in the article. Are we talking about the same incident?

FWIW, my take is that the TSA guy did the right thing - suspicion of alcohol in flight crew? call the authorities. I'm sure fellow crew or airline operations would do the same thing, and rightly so - heck I'm sure that pilot would do the same thing. Then, they should certainly investigate, and will likely need to replace the pilot on that flight (if for no other reason than to make sure, as portable "roadside" breathalizers are only but so reliable).

But why suspend him if he was below the limit?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: SkyexRamper
Posted 2007-11-20 08:35:57 and read 12825 times.



Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
But why suspend him if he was below the limit?

It is company policy to suspend someone for at least 3 days while they investigate any type of serious incident that could be in violation of company policy.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Airfoilsguy
Posted 2007-11-20 08:36:57 and read 12788 times.



Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

Where did that quote come from then?

Not from that article. There is also nothing about a weapon in the article. Are we talking about the same incident? [/quote]

Both were in the article when this thread was first posted. Now it has disappeared. Looks like the media is up to its usual dishonest tricks.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2007-11-20 08:42:26 and read 12694 times.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 24):
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

Where did that quote come from then?

Not from that article. There is also nothing about a weapon in the article. Are we talking about the same incident?

Most likely, the "source" wasn't as informed as he or she claimed.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 23):
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
But why suspend him if he was below the limit?

It is company policy to suspend someone for at least 3 days while they investigate any type of serious incident that could be in violation of company policy.

Makes sense.



Now, let's get back to discussing those DC9s'

[Edited 2007-11-20 08:56:19]

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2007-11-20 08:50:19 and read 12947 times.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 10):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
Suggest you do some research on the FAA HIMS program.

Will do, but care to elaborate?

Amazing what a search on Google can turn up! http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...emid=10994&ModuleId=6602&Tabid=256

Not to beat a dead horse, but right or wrong this pilot is innocent until proven guilty. There have been several incidents where pilots have been "over the limit" only to find out all the "facts" as reported by the media were wrong. Perhaps people on this forum should just delay their rush to judgement and wait for the truth to surface.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 09:05:35 and read 12664 times.

Regardless of what was or wasn't said, what the alcohol was or wasn't and what was reported how to what degree, the bottom line is crew shouldn't have any alcohol content at work.

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
Mouthwash, or breath spray could trigger that reading.

And crew should also know that there are products that are alcohol free to be used. If your job is that important to you, then maybe you should be doing things that wouldn't set yourself up for possible or probable cause for job loss and media attention. That includes using products (such as mouthwash or a breath spray) that contain alcohol.

Is your career really worth trashing over any amount of alcohol content? Is alcohol that important to you that you need it in mouthwash or breath spray, when alternatives are available (especially when you are in a job where a) people are always on the lookout for possibilities, b) you are subject to random drug and alcohol testings and c) you are under the watchful eye or the travelling public, government employees and co-workers for anything suspicious).

It's called being proactive.

I know enough not to throw myself under a bus and ruin a perfectly good career, excellent salary, close ties to friends and a passion over something as trivial as alcohol or products containing alcohol.

The pilot in question knows better. Any pilot knows better.

Is his career over? Maybe, maybe not. That is not for anyone of us to decide. His career will be followed closely, though. Regardless of how or what was used to get that reading and media attention, I hope it was worth it.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 09:11:09 and read 12540 times.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Amazing what a search on Google can turn up! http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...emid=10994&ModuleId=6602&Tabid=256

Not to beat a dead horse, but right or wrong this pilot is innocent until proven guilty. There have been several incidents where pilots have been "over the limit" only to find out all the "facts" as reported by the media were wrong. Perhaps people on this forum should just delay their rush to judgement and wait for the truth to surface.

Ahhh sarcasm! While the report that I found was nearly 25 pages long, I was asking what specific you were referring to. All the above comments are of course contingent upon the pilot ACTUALLY being guilty. That being said, alcohol was obviously strong enough for the agent to ground the pilot, righteously so! I don't believe pilots should drink before they fly, whether their tolerance is 0.01 or 0.1.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2007-11-20 09:16:57 and read 12445 times.

Milwaukee article playing up the was he? Wasn't he? angle. Nice pix of the pilot. Remembeer, smile when you get booked. You look less guilty.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Daus
Posted 2007-11-20 09:21:58 and read 12361 times.

UPDATE: Midwest says pilot wasn't drunk
A Midwest Airlines pilot suspected of being drunk before a scheduled flight from the Twin Cities International Airport last week had a blood-alcohol level of .016, which was below the threshold set by the airlines' policy and federal law, a Midwest spokesman reported this morning.

No charges have been filed in the case of the pilot, who reportedly was stopped by a Transportation Safety Administration official at a security checkpoint on Nov. 12, before a 3:20 flight from the Twin Cities to Milwaukee.

Michael Brophy, a Midwest spokesman, said the pilot has been removed from flight duty, pending an investigation by company officials.

Midwest policy prohibits pilots from flying with a blood-alcohol level of .02 and the federal law sets the limit at .04, Brophy said.

The pilot's attorney, Arthur Martinez, said the pilot had not consumed any alcohol within eight hours of the flight, and did not violate any of the FAA regulations.

He blamed Minneapolis television reports for badly distorting the story to suggest that his client's blood-alcohol level was over the limit set by federal law.

Martinez told the Associated Press his client had been cleared by the police and federal prosecutors had declined to prosecute. However, he said Hennepin County prosecutors may review the case.

"If anything he was a 0.01 (percent)," Martinez said of his client's blood-alcohol level. "You could be chewing some type of gum or had Listerine. Many different things contain alcohol."

For comparison, the legal limit for driving in Minnesota is a blood-alcohol level of 0.08%.

The pilot's wife, reached by phone at her suburban Milwaukee home Tuesday morning, said, "There were no laws broken. This has gotten totally blown out of proportion for some reason we don't know."

The Associated Press contributed to this report

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2007-11-20 09:25:55 and read 12294 times.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 29):
Ahhh sarcasm! While the report that I found was nearly 25 pages long, I was asking what specific you were referring to. All the above comments are of course contingent upon the pilot ACTUALLY being guilty. That being said, alcohol was obviously strong enough for the agent to ground the pilot, righteously so! I don't believe pilots should drink before they fly, whether their tolerance is 0.01 or 0.1.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):
Sorry, call me harsh, but I don't believe he should be rehired. You have one shot at it, you blow it, you blow it. What tells you he won't do it again? Do you want to risk it? What if something had happened to the passenger?

First of all, why do you now qualify your remarks? Secondly, where is the implication that drinking is tolerated? Finally your position was he should be fired and not rehired. The FAA seems to disagree and the HIMS program is an example of the program it has to ensure rehabilitation and not punative actions.

The link I provided wasn't 25 pages and it's written so even pilots can understand the point that's being made....

As far as alcohol being strong enough to be detected, I'm not convinced that's true. I have witnessed many TSA/Ground Staff (fill in the blank)/ flight crew disagreements, there is the potential for either party to pick up the phone and make a call. From that point on it becomes a feeding frenzy. This thread is a perfect example.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 09:26:50 and read 12245 times.



Quoting Daus (Reply 31):
"You could be chewing some type of gum or had Listerine. Many different things contain alcohol."

He should know better than to use these types of products. Like I posted before

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 28):
And crew should also know that there are products that are alcohol free to be used. If your job is that important to you, then maybe you should be doing things that wouldn't set yourself up for possible or probable cause for job loss and media attention. That includes using products (such as mouthwash or a breath spray) that contain alcohol.

Is your career really worth trashing over any amount of alcohol content? Is alcohol that important to you that you need it in mouthwash or breath spray, when alternatives are available (especially when you are in a job where a) people are always on the lookout for possibilities, b) you are subject to random drug and alcohol testings and c) you are under the watchful eye or the travelling public, government employees and co-workers for anything suspicious).

It's called being proactive.

I know enough not to throw myself under a bus and ruin a perfectly good career, excellent salary, close ties to friends and a passion over something as trivial as alcohol or products containing alcohol.

The pilot in question knows better. Any pilot knows better.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2007-11-20 09:40:35 and read 12013 times.



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 30):
Milwaukee article playing up the was he? Wasn't he? angle. Nice pix of the pilot. Remembeer, smile when you get booked. You look less guilty.

Geez, there's some strong allegations in that story:

"Airport documents obtained by that Minneapolis TV station reveal that Acree failed two of three sobriety tests"

"KSTP TV reports that charges are pending against Scott Acree"

If it turns out to be wrong (i.e., if he did blow .01) there could be one hell of a defamation suit.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Not to beat a dead horse, but right or wrong this pilot is innocent until proven guilty. There have been several incidents where pilots have been "over the limit" only to find out all the "facts" as reported by the media were wrong

 checkmark 

Not that you need another, but welcome to my RR list.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 09:41:42 and read 12007 times.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 32):
your position was he should be fired and not rehired

No, I said he should not be rehired.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2007-11-20 09:44:02 and read 11948 times.

Once again, I side with MilesRich post 16. No where in the above article was the work DRUNK used. If you blow a .01' or .02 you are good to go as far as driving is concerned. As stated, mouthwash will give you a .01 reading.
In this state .05 to .079 is impared....08 or over is by law, drunk.
I use an inhaler for asthma and I can blow .04 within a minute after using...so
post 28 in moot.
safe

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 727forever
Posted 2007-11-20 09:53:54 and read 11818 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 33):
He should know better than to use these types of products. Like I posted before

If the guy has donkey a** breath, I would rather that he use the product to knock it down than to have to sit up there in that little closet of a room with him for hours smelling the odors. Perhaps other products were not available for this guy that day.

Should the airline go after the TSA once this has been proven to be a false accusation? Absolutely. There was a case a couple of years ago in which the TSA accused a UA Captain of being under the influence. They pulled her off the flight deck, arrested her, and then the TSA dropped a dime to the media. Turns out she hadn't had a drop of alchohol in days. It got so blown out of proportion, much like this case, that UA management decided to do something about it. The next day a group of managers flew down to Washington and had a few words with the director of the TSA. A few people lost their jobs over it but it sounds as though things haven't changed and pilots will continue to be lynched in the media and the airlines will be forced to pick up the tab for cancelled flights and inconvenienced passengers so that a few TSA morons and arrest happy Airport Cops can be heros.

727forever

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Lobster
Posted 2007-11-20 09:58:13 and read 11691 times.



Quoting 777-200 (Reply 18):
Where did that quote come from then?

Last night when KSTP first posted it, the article was on of the top three in BOLD letters kind a deal. This quote was cut and pasted from their original article.

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 21):
Why was this thread altered? Because no where does it mention a gun and the pilot is probably an FFDO.

Holy crap did KSTP change what the first article put out. First one said he was arrested in cockpit, failed two sobriety tests, had weapon, and blood alcohol was .016.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 24):
Both were in the article when this thread was first posted. Now it has disappeared. Looks like the media is up to its usual dishonest tricks.

Exactly. I can't believe they got THAT MANY facts wrong about the case and still managed to put it out complete with mug shot and all. Makes me wonder how much "news" I really trust coming from KSTP now. How very, very pathetic.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 10:06:28 and read 11560 times.



Quoting 727forever (Reply 37):
If the guy has donkey a** breath, I would rather that he use the product to knock it down than to have to sit up there in that little closet of a room with him for hours smelling the odors.

Personal hygiene is paramount to a customer service job or any job where you are in close proximity to others. Pilots included.

So you would risk your career, your family's earnings, your passion and your reputation because you had donkey a** breath and had to get rid of it with a product containing alcohol, when you know the ramifications of using them?

Crew should know better. Always.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 37):
Perhaps other products were not available for this guy that day.

That is no excuse. Crew can carry liquids and alcohol-free mouthwash, alcohol free breathspray or even alcohol free gum. Be proactive. Hell, a little toothpaste cures that. Last time I checked, most don't have any alcohol, if any do at all.

It is that simple.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: DCrawley
Posted 2007-11-20 10:14:37 and read 11443 times.

This thread is an excellent example of why you should take everything you read from a media outlet with a grain of salt. It is sad how many people on this forum are always willing to hang the person (with their "guilty before proven innocent" attitude) before they have any concrete facts, especially when it comes to accusations of pilots being over the legal limit alcohol-wise. Once again, the facts are prevailing and proving all the nay-sayers incorrect. I hope this pilot gets his job back soon.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):

Who cares about his life?

Whoa, no need to be such a prick about it. You didn't even know the situation, the person, or the facts, and yet you are willing to say "to hell with him!"? I am sure many people care about his life, from his family to his friends. Who are you to say that?

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):

Sorry, call me harsh, but I don't believe he should be rehired. You have one shot at it, you blow it, you blow it. What tells you he won't do it again? Do you want to risk it? What if something had happened to the passenger?

I don't think "harsh" is the correct word for you or your statements. After reading your posts in this thread, I would rather call you or your statements "ignorant".

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):

Suggest you do some research on the FAA HIMS program. Seems as though the professionals disagree with you.

I got the new ALPA in the mail the other day and they have quite the article on the HIMS program. I'm glad it is helping so many peolpe fight their addictions and get back in the cockpit (if they choose to do so).

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: SaturnVRocket
Posted 2007-11-20 10:20:01 and read 11391 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 28):
That includes using products (such as mouthwash or a breath spray) that contain alcohol.

Get real, dude. The guy was in hot water because people love to jump to conclusions. This thread is proof of that.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 10:23:52 and read 11353 times.



Quoting SaturnVRocket (Reply 41):
Get real, dude. The guy was in hot water because people love to jump to conclusions. This thread is proof of that.

Hey dude. I am real. I know enough not to use products that may get me into hot water or jeopardise my job.

He should too. Why give anybody any reason to suspect you of anything in the first place?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2007-11-20 10:32:56 and read 11226 times.

The article changed from what it said when the thread was originally posted!!!!!

The first few comments on this article are from when the article confirmed that the pilot was arrested at had a blood alcohol level of 0.16. The article has since changed to say something much different. Obviously the reporter was misinformed.


If you look at the article date, it has two dates meaning that it was changed:

Posted at: 11/19/2007 08:28:04 PM

Updated at: 11/20/2007 10:33:19 AM


Quoting DCrawley (Reply 40):
This thread is an excellent example of why you should take everything you read from a media outlet with a grain of salt. It is sad how many people on this forum are always willing to hang the person (with their "guilty before proven innocent" attitude) before they have any concrete facts, especially when it comes to accusations of pilots being over the legal limit alcohol-wise. Once again, the facts are prevailing and proving all the nay-sayers incorrect. I hope this pilot gets his job back soon.

The original article said he was arrested by police called after he was found intoxicated at a security check point by TSA personnel, so I understand why people are going to jump on that guy.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2007-11-20 10:34:52 and read 11190 times.



Quoting 727forever (Reply 37):
Should the airline go after the TSA once this has been proven to be a false accusation? Absolutely.

727forever, I was with you on your first post above, but am not sure I fully agree here... Should airlines put pressure on TSA - or anyone - to NOT report such suspicions? That may be taking it too far.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 37):
pulled her off the flight deck, arrested her, and then the TSA dropped a dime to the media. Turns out she hadn't had a drop of alchohol in days

There's the problem.

There should be a way to quickly assess such allegation without "arresting" anybody. A quick word, so that the authorities can gauge the pilot's condition for themselves and/or do a breath test; then either let the pilot continue, or if that is not possible at worst cause a crew change or delay while it is investigated. If it is handled properly it should not be a big deal.

I"ll put my thoughts this way:
Im sure we all agree that a pilot must no be allowed to fly under the influence.

I'm sure we also will all agree that a pilot who is under the influence on duty must be reported.

By we must also recognize that such reports can (and often are) wrong or exaggerated. Investigating the report must be done in a way that is fair to the vast majority of pilots who would never take such chances (they deserve no less). The suspicion should be treated as only that, and if the pilot has done nothing wrong that should be the end of it without a media circus, unfounded allegations, suspensions and what not.

Returning to the UA captian in 727forever's example, whoever tipped off the media should be hung, drawn and quartered (prefereably at FL350). If they received $ for the tip off, then the more so.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-11-20 10:49:46 and read 10995 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 42):
Hey dude. I am real. I know enough not to use products that may get me into hot water or jeopardise my job.

He should too. Why give anybody any reason to suspect you of anything in the first place?

Honestly, I think you're arguing one giant moot point here. The blood test proved him to be under the legal limit, the breathlyzer is irrelevant.

Furthermore, I've drank enough to know alcohol smells nothing like mouthwash when eminated. How exactly would you even get to the point of being tested with a breathlyzer if someone smelled only minty fresh Listerine on your breath? That doesn't make any sense. In any case, ask for the blood test, it's much more conclusive and accurate than any breathlyzer is.

Anyway, threads like these just make me shake my head, i.e. getting lectures from 13 year olds about alcohol and being under the influence and how pilots should have their careers thrown away for a .016 BAC. Here's a tip kids, if you don't know what you're talking about, THEN STOP TALKING!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777-200
Posted 2007-11-20 10:50:50 and read 10974 times.



Quoting SaturnVRocket (Reply 41):

Get real, dude. The guy was in hot water because people love to jump to conclusions. This thread is proof of that.

I know, right.. I mean shit the Atkins diet low carb diet can raise your BAC

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2007-11-20 10:51:04 and read 10980 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 28):
If your job is that important to you, then maybe you should be doing things that wouldn't set yourself up for possible or probable cause for job loss and media attention. That includes using products (such as mouthwash or a breath spray) that contain alcohol......The pilot in question knows better. Any pilot knows better......He should know better than to use these types of products......Crew should know better. Always.....That is no excuse.....I know enough not to use products that may get me into hot water or jeopardise my job. He should too. Why give anybody any reason to suspect you of anything in the first place?

I understand the message of your posts, but it appears you may need to preach less of a Temperance tone for us to take your stance seriously. Airline crews have important duties but are not to be held in a position any higher than workers of a thousand other jobs, so your rigid advice with impractical undercurrents serves no purpose other than to encourage paranoia and an attitude among crews that someone may be 'out to get them' at any given time.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2007-11-20 10:59:38 and read 10873 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 39):

So you would risk your career, your family's earnings, your passion and your reputation because you had donkey a** breath and had to get rid of it with a product containing alcohol, when you know the ramifications of using them?

I know you work in the industry, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you anyway. My disagreement comes from your assertion that this pilot knew the ramifications of using the product. He knew company policy, he knew the FARs, and most importantly, he knew that he could use X product and still fly the aircraft. Why should he be penalized for overzealous policing? If in fact he did blow less than a 0.02 (and I suspect he blew a 0.016 and that was the source of the confusion), I don't see how we can fault him.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: BlueSkys
Posted 2007-11-20 11:05:13 and read 10799 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 17):
Where are the stats for these allegations? It would definitely help your statements if it was backed with facts.

Just google how AA hurts people. I have met Many Many people that were really hurt by AA and wasted many many years being 'helpless' and relapsing. I wrote a paper in university about quitting addictions and have attended many many meetings disguised as an alcoholic.

The first problem is that they make you believe you have a disease and you are helpless to it, and that ONLY AA can help you. They pound into your head that you cannot do it without them and that you need their 12 step program, they degrade your self confidence and respect. They keep punding into your head that you will die from your disease without the group. When you mention to them that you want to quit on your own, or you know someone that did they tell you that they either were not alcoholics or that they will relapse and die! It really really shocked they hell out of when i heard this from a group that is supposed to help people.

I urge you to attend a few meetings and see for your self how shockingly sick this organization is. The first time i went to a meeting I believed that AA really helps people, after 2 - 3 meetings they begin the process of degrading you and trying to make you believe that you are nothing without the group, that you have a disease, that relapse is a normal part of recovery, and worst of all you are surrounded by such a negative atmosphere where everyone talks about how horrible their life is and how their life was ruined by booze and drugs. It is also a faith based organization, nothing against religion here but it is not up to Jesus to help you quit, it is up to you. Also, AA and other groups are clear public failures, but completely accepted by the public as the only way for an alcoholic or a drug user to abstain from their addiction. Ask anyone what they should do with an alcoholic, they will tell you to send them to AA, ask them about another method to treat alcoholism, and they will give you a blank stare and wont come up with another way.

If AA and group recovery meetings worked, you would not see celebrities constantly in and out of Rehab or AA, and we only hear about the Celebrities and not the common person who is constantly in this relapse cycle. AA makes a person think that they are powerless against alcohol, when in fact they are not. A person is very capable of quitting, whether it is using will power or using other methods that work.

Here is some good literature about AA from a gentleman that has created a great way of abstaining from addiction. His method is great and it works, there are also many other great methods of doing it. It is a long article but it raises very many good points.

http://www.rational.org/why.html

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Ca2ohHP
Posted 2007-11-20 11:15:04 and read 10634 times.

This guy blew a 0.01 and people think it's "Drunk?"

TSA = Trained Sniffers of Alcohol

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Falzone
Posted 2007-11-20 11:26:55 and read 10401 times.

I don't understand why he needed to be arrested. Then again, moving your feet too much in the mens room stall will get you arrested at MSP.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: ZTagged
Posted 2007-11-20 11:43:41 and read 10163 times.



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):

"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

I can't seem to find that line anywhere in the article. o_O

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 11:44:55 and read 10140 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 47):
Airline crews have important duties but are not to be held in a position any higher than workers of a thousand other jobs,

They aren't to be held in a postion any higher. Ever. Never said or implied they were.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 47):
so your rigid advice

It wasn't meant to be rigid advice, more using common sense with the parameters in which you work.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 45):
The blood test proved him to be under the legal limit, the breathlyzer is irrelevant.

Great. I was never arguing his innocence or guilt.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 45):
How exactly would you even get to the point of being tested with a breathlyzer if someone smelled only minty fresh Listerine on your breath?

Ask the TSA agent who felt obligated to tell.

My point all along, maybe I need to elaborate, is to not get yourself in a position to where someone might miscontrue facts. If you don't want someone possibly smelling alcohol on your breath: don't drink, use products that have alcohol in them or use things that might be thought of as said smell. It is just staying one step ahead. Common sense on the part of the employee.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Why should he be penalized for overzealous policing?

I have never got in the debate of what should or shouldn't happen to him, his guilt or innocence. My posts have been along the line of why, when you know company policies, FARs, public opinion, etc. would you do something (and this applies to anyone) to jeopardise your job, career and livelihood. Especially when there are alternatives around.

Why get yourself to the point where a BAC needs to be taken? Why get to a point where you are front page news? Why put yourself in a position that might be mistaken for something worse.

Being proactive (yes, I use that word a lot) would have saved a lot of embarassment.

Instead of the TSA getting involved, what if it had been a random alcohol screening?

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 47):
impractical undercurrents serves no purpose other than to encourage paranoia and an attitude among crews that someone may be 'out to get them' at any given time.

Being one step ahead of the game and doing what you should be is giving impractical undercurrents and encouraging paranoia and an atitiude that someone may be 'out to get them'? Since when? How is following rules, company policy and common sense encouraging paranoia and an impractical undercurrent.

Be responsible for your actions.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: B777A340Fan
Posted 2007-11-20 11:45:33 and read 10146 times.



Quoting DCrawley (Reply 40):
I don't think "harsh" is the correct word for you or your statements. After reading your posts in this thread, I would rather call you or your statements "ignorant".

Ignorant? Because I stand by my position that I don't want anyone drinking piloting my plane? Yes, I am way overboard. Sorry, but personally knowing three people who have died in plane crashes, I don't mind rooting the ones that choose to drink before flying. So while I advocate the FAA program one of the posters talked about, I don't advocate the person flying again. Get him on his feet and all, but don't let him come back to being a pilot. So before you call me ignorant or careless about that person's family and friends, why don't you think of the passenger's families and friends had he been able to fly intoxicated.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Lobster
Posted 2007-11-20 11:47:08 and read 10116 times.



Quoting ZTagged (Reply 52):


Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):

"A source confirmed tests showed Acree's alcohol levels as high as 0.16; twice the legal limit to drive"

I can't seem to find that line anywhere in the article.o_O

Then maybe we should take the time to read the whole thread huh?  banghead 

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: JohnJ
Posted 2007-11-20 11:58:56 and read 9968 times.

A commercial airlines pilot detained at Twin Cities International with alcohol on his breath won't be charged with a crime.

Authorities arrested the Midwest Airlines pilot November 12, as he sat in the cockpit of his plane.

A security official had earlier smelled alcohol on the pilot, and alerted police. Investigators questioned the pilot for three hours, then released him.

The pilot's blood alcohol level turned out to be less than .02 percent, which is the legal limit for the pilot of a commercial plane.

Authorities decided there was not enough evidence to charge the pilot with a crime.

The pilot's attorney says his client did nothing wrong. The pilot is now clear to fly again. He's been grounded since the arrest.


From KARE-TV's web site:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=270096

I smell not alcohol, but some rather strong lawsuits pending here.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-11-20 12:00:00 and read 9970 times.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 54):
Ignorant? Because I stand by my position that I don't want anyone drinking piloting my plane? Yes, I am way overboard. Sorry, but personally knowing three people who have died in plane crashes, I don't mind rooting the ones that choose to drink before flying. So while I advocate the FAA program one of the posters talked about, I don't advocate the person flying again. Get him on his feet and all, but don't let him come back to being a pilot. So before you call me ignorant or careless about that person's family and friends, why don't you think of the passenger's families and friends had he been able to fly intoxicated.

Good lord, have you read any of this thread? The pilot tested with a .016, as in under the FAA legal limit and under his employer's limit. .016 is nowhere near impaired, so please, stop being so melodramatic.

You had three friends that died in plane crashes? Great! Did any of them die because of pilots with .016 BACs? How does that make you any more (un)qualified to speak on this subject?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2007-11-20 12:08:57 and read 9817 times.

I see the error now. Someone at the TV station made a typo, or misheard that the pilot tested at 0.16. Whoever that was misplaced the period. It should have read 0.016. The later AP story should be the correct one since even the Midwest spokesman said the pilot tested less than 0.02.

The pilot, whose mug shot has now appeared around the world, still has a possible strong claim against the TV station and the government, depending how the alcohol reading error was made. I wonder why the TSA just didn't let the guy go, since he was not committing an offense. Maybe some TSA types don't like pilots who are allowed to carry firearms as part of their job.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2007-11-20 12:12:08 and read 9747 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 53):
Why get yourself to the point where a BAC needs to be taken? Why get to a point where you are front page news? Why put yourself in a position that might be mistaken for something worse.

...because he had NO IDEA that BAC would need to be taken.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Nuori5084
Posted 2007-11-20 12:13:33 and read 9754 times.

Has anyone else received a nice, mature IM by the member named: "CalCaptRet?" He apparently felt an urgency to IM me saying "How about you read the article moron." I am sure I'm not alone.

For his (lack) of information I did read the article and it has since changed. I don't know what planet he's from, but .16 is twice the legal limit.

.02 and .16 are quite a difference from whoever wrote the article!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: SaturnVRocket
Posted 2007-11-20 12:26:24 and read 9570 times.



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 49):
I have met Many Many people that were really hurt by AA and wasted many many years being 'helpless' and relapsing.

I am NOT an expert in addiction, but my 2 cents worth is that of ALL the people I know who go to AA meetings, they replaced their alcohol addictions with an AA addiction.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-20 12:30:58 and read 9549 times.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 14):
The problem is AA does not help, and yet people are forced to go. AA tries to take away peoples will power, and tell them they are 'powerless' to their 'disease'. And no matter how long you have abstained from alcohol they still tell you that you are an alcoholic! "Hi, I am bill and i have not drank for 15 years, i am an alcoholic" NO YOUR NOT BILL!!!

I have seen peoples lives get really messed up because of AA, it ruines more lives then it helps, and those it helps it does not help properly.

If someone needs to quit, just stop drinking. There are really good methods of quitting addictions, AA is not one of them.


My name is Martin, and I am an Alcoholic
AA saved me from a lonely, miserable death. It gave me back my family. It gave me back a productive, useful, and happy life. It allowed me to regain my place in society.

Without trying to attack you personally, and don't take it like that, you do exhibit profound ignorance on AA and on Alcoholism in general. I suggest you buy The Blue Book. It's cheap, its widely available anywhere where AA groups meet, it's an easy read and should clarify many of your misconceptions. Give a try.

[Edited 2007-11-20 12:34:30]

[Edited 2007-11-20 12:50:57]

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Flysherwood
Posted 2007-11-20 12:39:55 and read 9444 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 33):
He should know better than to use these types of products. Like I posted before

I had no idea the Rev. Jimmy Swaggart was on A.net.  Wink

A quote you may want to think about is "... he, who is without sin, shall cast the first stone..." especially when there was no offense committed by the pilot. That TV station better have one heck of lawyer that is well versed in slander / defamation of character laws.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Warszawa
Posted 2007-11-20 12:40:16 and read 9421 times.

Wow, unbelieveable. I dont blame the police officers, or TSA, I think they did the right thing. However, the MEDIA, did the complete wrong thing, with completely incorrect facts and bogus information. Likewise, they probably wanted to 'Spice Up' the story, especially before Thanksgiving, so it sounds oh so good.

I read the articled last night, the pilots photograph looked like some kind of serial-killer mugshot, was ridiculous.

The article has since changed, his photograph removed, etc. KSTP is probably sweatin' bullets right now. If I was that pilot, i'd sue the F*** out of KSTP for defamation, especially with his serial-killer looking photoshopped mugshot that was on there, and demand an on air apology from KSTP. If I was Midwest, i'd rip KSTP a new one also.

The article should be removed from KSTP as its no longer newsworthy; now its simply scarring the pilots name, along with Midwest Airlines, for no harm nor anything done wrong.

Incompetant morons.  

[Edited 2007-11-20 12:41:49]

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: BlueSkys
Posted 2007-11-20 13:00:32 and read 9174 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
My name is Martin, and I am an Alcoholic
AA saved me from a lonely, miserable death. It gave me back my family. It gave me back a productive, useful, and happy life. It allowed me to regain my place in society.

Without trying to attack you personally, and don't take it like that, you do exhibit profound ignorance on AA and on Alcoholism in general. I suggest you buy The Blue Book. It's cheap, its widely available anywhere where AA groups meet, it's an easy read and should clarify many of your misconceptions. Give it a try.

Martin, I have attended many AA meetings for research for a university paper...Please refer to my post #49. I have also had a problem with alcohol that I left behind a while ago.

I congratulate you on being free of alcohol, but I do not believe AA saved your life, you did. I also do not believe you are an alcoholic, as you do not drink any more. An alcoholic is a person that abuses alcohol, not a person that once did. That is another reason I am against the AA organization, they make you beleive you still are an alcoholic but in truth you do not drink anymore so you are no longer a person in the grip of alcoholism. You used to be an alcoholic, now you are a man that does not drink anymore.

I do not want to start a flame fest with you, I just have a difference of opinion that I developed through MUCH research and as an observer of the AA program.

Quoting SaturnVRocket (Reply 63):
I am NOT an expert in addiction, but my 2 cents worth is that of ALL the people I know who go to AA meetings, they replaced their alcohol addictions with an AA addiction.

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2007-11-20 13:08:10 and read 9081 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 53):
How is following rules

He (the pilot) was.,

Quote:
company policy

He was.

Quote:
and common sense

He was.

Quote:
encouraging paranoia and an impractical undercurrent.

Be responsible for your actions.

In all cases above, it appears evident that the pilot in question was inline with all federal, company and common sense procedures, which in itself, exercises a certain modicum of responsibility. Preaching abstinence to the point of paranoia (ie: avoiding mouthwash) serves no purpose to anybody.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Express1
Posted 2007-11-20 13:17:33 and read 8966 times.



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 2):
I have no remorse for this guy.


 checkmark 

Totally agree,this guy is supposed to have responsibilities for is crew,and welfare of his passengers and since he has blown all his chances out of the cockpit window, he will now get what he deserves.

dave

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Lobster
Posted 2007-11-20 13:33:59 and read 8814 times.

"Investigation Clears Midwest Pilot Arrested At MSP"

http://wcco.com/crime/pilot.arrested.drunk.2.591743.html

"A Midwest Airlines pilot was arrested in the cockpit of an airplane at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport last week because a security official smelled alcohol on him. But after investigating, authorities said Tuesday that the pilot won't be charged with a crime"


So there you have it folks.........

From now on, I think I'll wait awhile when KSTP puts something out. WOW, were they wrong on their first article. Shame on them.

Also, from KSTP

"5 EYEWITNESS NEWS reviewed an investigative report which said Acree had a blood-alcohol level of 0.016. For a time overnight on KSTP.COM, we mistakenly referred to that number as 0.16 That was incorrect."

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S262046.shtml?cat=1

[Edited 2007-11-20 13:36:12]

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2007-11-20 13:34:11 and read 8762 times.



Quoting Express1 (Reply 69):


Totally agree,this guy is supposed to have responsibilities for is crew,and welfare of his passengers and since he has blown all his chances out of the cockpit window, he will now get what he deserves.

dave

Um, Dave, have you actually read beyond the first 3 posts?

The thing is, the report was WRONG. He was not drunk, he was below the legal limit (not the .08 limit to drive, but the more stringent .02 limit for pilots). He was not arrested or charged. In fact the whole thing was an (actionable, IMHO) mistake by some local tv station that thought they had a scoop based on "sources", and ended up smearing the name of a pilot.

He WILL get what he deserves, hopefully. To be left alone, and allowed to get back into the air to do the job he presumably enjoys, without being judged on the basis of rumour and innuendo.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2007-11-20 13:36:20 and read 8719 times.



Quoting Express1 (Reply 69):
this guy is supposed to have responsibilities for is crew,and welfare of his passengers and since he has blown all his chances out of the cockpit window, he will now get what he deserves.

Sorry to be abrupt, but have you read the complete thread, or are you just jumping in to the fray of late starters? The pilot tested negative, and even his employer admits to that. Why should he get what he deserves, as you put it, except being taken off the suspension list?

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-11-20 13:40:06 and read 8661 times.



Quoting Express1 (Reply 69):
Totally agree,this guy is supposed to have responsibilities for is crew,and welfare of his passengers and since he has blown all his chances out of the cockpit window, he will now get what he deserves.

Damn, and I thought this lack of reading comprehension was just an American thing. Snap!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: TACAA320
Posted 2007-11-20 13:45:36 and read 8611 times.



Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 1):
This is always sad,

Just plain stupid from him.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Express1
Posted 2007-11-20 13:52:32 and read 8500 times.

Ah ok i'l take it all back then sorry guys

dave

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: AR385
Posted 2007-11-20 13:56:51 and read 8475 times.



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 67):
An alcoholic is a person that abuses alcohol

Yes. He does abuses alcohol but not out of pleasure. He simply can't stop. No matter how strongly he wants too, he won't stop. Physically he can't. And yes, the usual misconceptions abound. Just a few:

An alcoholic:

!. He has no will-power
2. He's a wimp
3. He's just not serious about his life (marital, work, love interest)

But the reality is this:

1. There is a physical, brain structure reason why he won't stop
2. It has nothing to do with will power. We alcoholics loose all physical ability to stop drinkink. It's revolting in itself, and denigrating. But we simply can't stop.

The misconceptions is that we alcoholics are a bunch of immature drunks with no willpower, and even wimps when it comes to alcohol.

What is missed in all this, is how we suffer. We suffer rejection, we suffer that we have no will power, we suffer from no self steem, we feel dirty, we feel unclean and we feel unworthy of even the slightest show of compassion. We feel unworthy of someone loving us.

I felt all of that for many years, until I got in contact with AA.

And this is just facts I'm pointing out, not just self-compassion.


Common misconceptions:

If he had will power, he'll stop

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 67):
but in truth you do not drink anymore so you are no longer a person in the grip of alcoholism

The grip of alcoholism lies dormant, and it's pretty easy for it comeback from its dormancy. I can be sober for decades. If after such time, I'm given a beer. I won't be able to stop until I ransack the bar and end in hospital with an IV drip. See, alcoholics can go sober for decades. Give them a drink, they won't be able to stop at one. That's is why the saying "Once an Alcoholic, always an Alcoholic.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 67):
I do not want to start a flame fest with you, I just have a difference of opinion that I developed through MUCH research and as an observer of the AA program.

Please, Please get the Blue Book. It will clarify many of your misconceptions. And if you wan to proceed discussing with me, I'll be more than honored to help you out on the exploration of the matter.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-20 14:31:47 and read 8099 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):
...because he had NO IDEA that BAC would need to be taken.

My point exactly. You never know. Gum, Listerine, breathspray, a diet, whatever. Now front page media. C'est la vie.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 68):
Preaching abstinence to the point of paranoia (ie: avoiding mouthwash) serves no purpose to anybody.

I am hardly preaching. Do what you want, I could give a toss, but have fun explaining yourself when push comes to shove.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Flysherwood
Posted 2007-11-20 14:46:33 and read 7956 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 77):
I am hardly preaching.

Yes you are and you have been throughout the thread. I truly hope that you are never falsely accused of anything. It will be a complete shock to your system judging by the posts that you have made.  Yeah sure

There will be a lawsuit over this and the TV station will pay dearly. It may go so far as some of the editorial staff and producers losing their jobs. You do NOT post a picture of anyone that has NOT been charged with a crime and then get the story wrong. That is simply irresponsible journalism!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: JohnJ
Posted 2007-11-20 15:38:12 and read 7522 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 75):
My point exactly. You never know. Gum, Listerine, breathspray, a diet, whatever. Now front page media. C'est la vie.

Gum... listerine... breathspray... a diet.... multi-million dollar defamation lawsuit. I suspect this guy's career will recover just fine, but not before he's packed away a sizable chunk of change after having settled out of court with numerous parties.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2007-11-20 15:58:43 and read 7319 times.

I hope and I am quite sure a serious investigation will be done on this man before he flies again. He may have a drinking problem, or just drank too much too close the the 8 hour limits so to show a small but measurable amount, still one not allowed for anyone to fly a plane. He should be screened to see what the situation may be. If it is determined that he may have a drinking problem, then perhaps some short term out-patient counseling, AA or the the FAA's HIMS program discussed above will have to take place. It could be that he just needs to adjust or be more careful when consuming alcohol if he is expecting to fly the next day, so a short suspension and education may be sufficient. Still, the threat of being fired if ever caught again should give him enough incentive to do the right thing.
There are plenty of cases of pilots over the years with alcoholism/drinking problems who got caught or caught themselves, got help and continued in their careers and lives. I would hope this many gets a chance to a fair investigation and the issue be resolved.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: BlueSkys
Posted 2007-11-20 16:19:56 and read 7169 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 74):
Please, Please get the Blue Book. It will clarify many of your misconceptions. And if you wan to proceed discussing with me, I'll be more than honored to help you out on the exploration of the matter.

I have read the blue book, I still have a different point of view though. I do not see alcoholism as a 'disease', and i do not believe that brain structure is different. There is no scientific proof of that although many many studies have been conducted.

I am glad that you are happy with the AA method, but I have met people who were raging alcoholics, and quit drinking for years. They now drink alcohol on occasion and are able to stop at one drink or two. I know you are going to tell me that they were never 'real' alcoholics but they were. As soon as a person realizes that they have the power in their own hands they can be free from addiction.

I have read the Blue Book, but I urge you to read "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Addiction". It is a good read and a cheap book as well. Now that you do not drink anymore it may open your eyes to more than just the AA method, because there is more than just AA. There are many other reads and methods as well, but with my research i found this method to be great, and have met many ex-alcoholics and ex-drug users that have quit everything with this method.

I think my biggest problem with AA is that they claim that they are the only method, and they are not. They claim to have knowledge of a disease and a brain condition that causes alcoholism but they do not have one scientist or doctor that can show the world that this is a fact.

I do believe that AA can help people stop drinking, but it does not give you your life back, you still attend meetings and you still think that you are helpless. How can you be helpless if you do not drink? You are not helpless, because you quit drinking, and you are free. No drugs, no surgery, just you and your decision to STOP.

I know that AA has helped you and you really believe it in with your heart and soul. But read the book i recommended and just learn about another method. It is always worth opening yourself to other opinions.

All the best Martin!

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Bok269
Posted 2007-11-20 16:38:54 and read 7012 times.

I'm glad to hear the pilot in this case wasn't in fact in violation of any crime. If this (and the UA Captain) was the TSA's doing, I hope that all those responsible lose their jobs. Additionally, I think that Airport Police in this case were way too arrest happy. Not only is it degrading to the pilot himself, but it does not exactly inspire confidence in passengers to see a pilot marched down the concourse in handcuffs.

I also disagree with the media plastering his name all over. Let's say someone reads the original article, sees the name attached to flying with a .16 BAC but does not read the other article. The next time they fly, they hear, "Good afternoon ladies and gentleman this is Captain ******* speaking (I have ommitted his name to help detach him from being a drunk pilot)..." and what do they do? They panic because they think their Captain is an alcoholic. If they begin to tell other pax, this can cause a very bad and un-needed situation.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 34):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Not to beat a dead horse, but right or wrong this pilot is innocent until proven guilty. There have been several incidents where pilots have been "over the limit" only to find out all the "facts" as reported by the media were wrong



Not that you need another, but welcome to my RR list.

And mine as well. We all need to remember that everyone in the US is innocent until proven otherwise.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 777STL
Posted 2007-11-20 17:14:19 and read 6730 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 75):
I am hardly preaching. Do what you want, I could give a toss, but have fun explaining yourself when push comes to shove.

And when was the last time an airline employee was fired for using mouthwash?

My point exactly.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: DCrawley
Posted 2007-11-20 18:08:45 and read 6308 times.



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 54):
Ignorant? Because I stand by my position that I don't want anyone drinking piloting my plane? Yes, I am way overboard. Sorry, but personally knowing three people who have died in plane crashes, I don't mind rooting the ones that choose to drink before flying. So while I advocate the FAA program one of the posters talked about, I don't advocate the person flying again. Get him on his feet and all, but don't let him come back to being a pilot. So before you call me ignorant or careless about that person's family and friends, why don't you think of the passenger's families and friends had he been able to fly intoxicated.

Yes, you have been ignorant in your posts. Just so we are on the same page, let's define ignorant:

ig-no-rant; adj.

1. Lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.

2. Lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.

3. Uninformed; unaware.

4. Due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

In your post, you had no factual information yet said you "don't believe he should be rehired". Right there, you meet definition 4, "showing lack of knowledge". Who are you to be judge and jury on someones life? I'm not trying to debate this much though, because on this site you are more or less entitled to your own opinion. I am sorry that you know 3 people whom have died due to aviation accidents. How many of them were lost to drinking and flying? I unfortunately have lost multiple people who were close to me in aviation accidents as well, but I do not feel the same way as you. I agree with you that it is unacceptable to drink before flying, however this is not one of those situations since you cannot prove that this man did drink. I am also sorry to hear that you do not advocate giving people a second chance in life. I know there is no way to guarantee that things work out (especially since we are all humans), however there is no reason not to give it a try with restrictions. I do not think there are many professional pilots who would risk getting their tickets pulled and careers terminated to protect someone they knew had been drinking before the flight. I think your final statement: "So before you call me ignorant or careless about that person's family and friends, why don't you think of the passenger's families and friends had he been able to fly intoxicated" also has no relevance to this thread. This pilot has not been convicted of anything and with a .01 BAC, I do not think you have the knowledge to evaluate how the human body performs.

My whole point was originally about how you hung the guy before there were any facts and that is the general theme in the definition of ignorance: a lack of knowledge.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: SirDeath
Posted 2007-11-20 19:46:00 and read 5688 times.

I see that the Northwest "customer service" problems have spread to Midwest. OK, jokes aside, I hope the union sticks with this guy and lets him salvage a career after getting him self clean and strait. Almost everyone deserves a second chance, but at the same time, almost no one a deserves a third. Best of luck to the man from (another) friend of Bill W.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: 2175301
Posted 2007-11-20 20:22:16 and read 5469 times.

Hope this helps the debate: From the Milwaukee Journal this afternoon

www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=11/20/2007&id=32072

TUESDAY, Nov. 20, 2007, 3:36 p.m.
By Tom Held

Midwest pilot cleared of any wrongdoing
Authorities have cleared a Midwest Airlines pilot arrested last week after a Transportation Security Administration official at the Twin Cities International Airport suspected he was about to fly a plane while intoxicated.

The investigation after the pilot's arrest showed he broke no laws, according to Patrick Hogan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission.

The pilot's attorney and a spokesman for Midwest said tests showed the pilot had a blood-alcohol level of .016. That's below the Federal Aviation Administration limit of .04 and the threshold set by airline policy, .02.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: N917ME
Posted 2007-11-21 02:38:36 and read 5115 times.



Quoting SirDeath (Reply 82):
see that the Northwest "customer service" problems have spread to Midwest. OK, jokes aside, I hope the union sticks with this guy and lets him salvage a career after getting him self clean and strait. Almost everyone deserves a second chance, but at the same time, almost no one a deserves a third. Best of luck to the man from (another) friend of Bill W.



Quoting 2175301 (Reply 83):
Hope this helps the debate: From the Milwaukee Journal this afternoon

www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=11/20/2007&id=32072

TUESDAY, Nov. 20, 2007, 3:36 p.m.
By Tom Held

Midwest pilot cleared of any wrongdoing
Authorities have cleared a Midwest Airlines pilot arrested last week after a Transportation Security Administration official at the Twin Cities International Airport suspected he was about to fly a plane while intoxicated.

The investigation after the pilot's arrest showed he broke no laws, according to Patrick Hogan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission.

The pilot's attorney and a spokesman for Midwest said tests showed the pilot had a blood-alcohol level of .016. That's below the Federal Aviation Administration limit of .04 and the threshold set by airline policy, .02.

OK, so for all you who wanted to crucify this guy,,, I think an apology is in order. It never ceases to amaze me how quick and judgemental people are when all the facts have not even been presented or at least accurate.

I have worked in Media Relations in a previous job and I have seen this more than times than I can count. The overzealous journalist, trying to break the "big story" doesn't get the facts correct, publishes the story and when called out on it, makes some lame excuse about his/her "sources"

And, since when did a 10.00/hr TSA/wannabe cop become such an authority on someone being drunk?! Again, someone trying to be something they are not. Rule number 1: Before accusing someone of something, be damn sure. Rule number 2: see rule number 1.



Scott is a great guy and captain. He has been to my city several times.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2007-11-21 05:24:43 and read 5021 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 77):

I do not think you have read most of the posts above your #77. The man doe not have a drinking or alcohol problem
He appears to like to use alot of mouthwash that contains alcohol like most do.
safe

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: IndyWA
Posted 2007-11-21 06:41:01 and read 4951 times.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 41):

I'm a flight attendant myself...but do you REALLY expect me to not use a good mouthwash or gum or breathspray just because of this? I love my job and all but sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere. No where in ANY of our policies or manuals say we need to never use these products when coming to work. Please tell me you aren't one of those men/women who are SO into their jobs, they have no real productive life outside of it.

Topic: RE: Drunk Pilot Arrested At MSP
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2007-11-21 07:10:03 and read 4910 times.



Quoting IndyWA (Reply 86):
Please tell me you aren't one of those men/women who are SO into their jobs,

I am very much into my job. Why is that a bad thing? Customers love it, as do my co-workers. Ask any one of them.

Quoting IndyWA (Reply 86):
they have no real productive life outside of it.

My job is just that, my job. It is where I earn my salary. It is also not my life. My home, husband and family are my life, where I can spend said salary. I would also try to do things that would not possibly jeopardise that.


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