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Topic: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Flyboy_se
Posted 2007-12-09 18:09:57 and read 12957 times.

Hello,

i am wondering if KLM has done any updates to their MD-11 interiors. I ve heard rumours before that they will refurbish the cabins a la 777 interior with 3-3-3 seating and new overhead bins.
I would like to fly on one of those while they are still here.Just checked KLM s website and seems that MD-11 is operating some flights to JFK.
Appreciate any help

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Meta
Posted 2007-12-09 18:51:03 and read 12918 times.

They are also going to EWR for the winter. There have been many threads on this same topic. I am pretty sure the MD-11's will get 777 like seats. About the 3-3-3 seating, I thought they already had that or at least thats what http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/KLM_MD-11.php say.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2007-12-09 20:54:49 and read 12781 times.

both the MD-11s i flew on in September, KCA and KCB had the 3-3-3 config, in terms of iFE they were a work in progress, movies were main screen, but there were handsets in the seats, so obviously they're installing Ptvs piecemeal.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2007-12-09 21:28:18 and read 12748 times.

This winter, the MD11s will get the new WBC cabins, including the new entertainment system. No PTV installation is planned for the back cabins, which have been retrofitted during the last winter. The first two aircraft with the new WBC are already flying as we speak.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: JRadier
Posted 2007-12-10 07:42:32 and read 12436 times.



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 2):
but there were handsets in the seats

as far as I know it's just an in-seat phone

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Kappel
Posted 2007-12-10 07:52:59 and read 12412 times.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
PTV installation is planned for the back cabins

Has KLM gone back from this plan? IIRC the original plan was to fit PTV's in the MD11 Y cabins, but not the 744's. That plan has changed now?

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Vasu
Posted 2007-12-10 08:42:19 and read 12344 times.



Quoting Flyboy_se (Thread starter):
new overhead bins.

Anyone have any news on this? I know they've got 3-3-3 seating now, but didn't know anything about new bins...?

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: KL577
Posted 2007-12-10 09:24:52 and read 12272 times.



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Has KLM gone back from this plan? IIRC the original plan was to fit PTV's in the MD11 Y cabins, but not the 744's. That plan has changed now?

This was even announced in an issue of Holland Herald a couple of months back.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2007-12-10 09:35:31 and read 12254 times.



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Has KLM gone back from this plan? IIRC the original plan was to fit PTV's in the MD11 Y cabins, but not the 744's. That plan has changed now?

I may have been unclear, but I was talking about what is currently being done to the MD11s, and for this winter season that is only the installation of the new WBC seats. As such, any PTVs in economy won't come before next winter at the earliest as the MD11 fleet will once again be deployed at maximum strength during the summer.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Schipholjfk
Posted 2007-12-10 20:15:08 and read 12017 times.

KLM's MD-11s stink. They constantly break down and in one of my flights to DEL two MD-11 aircrafts (SAME DAY) went up in the air and came back to Schiphol due to mechanical failures. Eventually the flight was canceled. Lots of broken seats, horrible interiors, and noisy. Not my favorite KLM metal. I pray for the 777 on JFK runs. Always avoid the MD-11 when I can.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2007-12-10 22:59:50 and read 11953 times.



Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 9):
KLM's MD-11s stink. They constantly break down and in one of my flights to DEL two MD-11 aircrafts (SAME DAY) went up in the air and came back to Schiphol due to mechanical failures. Eventually the flight was canceled. Lots of broken seats, horrible interiors, and noisy. Not my favorite KLM metal. I pray for the 777 on JFK runs. Always avoid the MD-11 when I can.

though i do like the MD-11 as an aircraft, i have to agree to a certain extent, they're hangar queens, i had a similar situation on my Jro-Ams return in september, our flight was 4 hours late into Jro because the first MD-11 assigned to our flight went ots, they found a second MD-11 to take over, it also went tech, on top of that, when we got to Dar Es Salaam, they were having a problem with the ignition system for the number one engine, so the ground engineer had to come onboard and fix it. I couldn't help but wonder when KLM is going to simply cut their losses and dump the MD-11. Like i said, i like the MD-11 from a passenger point of view it's a great airplane, but out of four MD-11 flights I've taken in my life, three have had technical delays, i've also had an equipment sub due to an MD-11 going ots, that says something about the aircraft. Furthermore, i knew a guy who used to work for AA, and when he wasn't talking about nonreving around the world in first class, he mentioned that when the MD-11s were first delivered to AA they were so plagued with technical issues that MD had to send a team of fifty engineers to Dallas to sort them out because AA was threatening to sue.

I laud KLM, Finnair, and Varig, they obviously have alot more patience than DL, AA, JL, and AZ who all got rid of their MD-11s within just a few years of delivery, probably for the same reason: schedule unreliability.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2007-12-10 23:36:41 and read 11932 times.



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 10):
I laud KLM, Finnair, and Varig, they obviously have alot more patience than DL, AA, JL, and AZ who all got rid of their MD-11s within just a few years of delivery, probably for the same reason: schedule unreliability.

JL operated their MD-11s for about 10 years and AZ for up to 14 years which is more than "just a few years". And I don't think UPS (which bought most if not all JL MD-11s) and Lufthansa Cargo (which bought several ex-AZ MD-11s) are known for operating unreliable aircraft. I think most carriers that used the MD-11 for passenger service wanted to replace them with twin-engine aircraft with lower operating costs.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2007-12-11 00:28:35 and read 11892 times.



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 10):
i've also had an equipment sub due to an MD-11 going ots, that says something about the aircraft. Furthermore, i knew a guy who used to work for AA, and when he wasn't talking about nonreving around the world in first class, he mentioned that when the MD-11s were first delivered to AA they were so plagued with technical issues that MD had to send a team of fifty engineers to Dallas to sort them out because AA was threatening to sue.

One thing you have to take with a large grain of salt is AA's opinion of the MD-11. AA received many of the first off the line. The initial MD-11's were indeed rushed and Crandall did order a team to fix some 200 technical issues. At some point, MDC lost their patience as no other airline was complaining to the extent. After all the S80 discounts, the manufacturer felt AA was taking them to the cleaners. As a result, the AA birds never did receive full PIP treatment, and thus underperformed greatly compared to later build models.

Judging the MD-11 on AA's misfortunes is like evaluating the GE CF6 series on UA's word.  Wink

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 10):
I laud KLM, Finnair, and Varig, they obviously have alot more patience than DL, AA, JL, and AZ who all got rid of their MD-11s within just a few years of delivery, probably for the same reason: schedule unreliability.

Again, this only applies too AA in the group you list. Fleet commonality and the success of the 772ER are bigger reasons for the departure of the tri-jet from the other respected fleets.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2007-12-11 01:00:15 and read 11857 times.

thanks for setting me straight! Actually when my brother used to fly KC-10s for the Air Force he called CF6s "cadillac engines on a chevrolet frame" but that's for another thread. I also have to remember that AA i think was the one who pressured SJC into extending their runway because the runway wasn't long enough for a properly fueled MD-11 to get off the ground, so they had to fly over to Oakland for more fuel, but that's not an MD-11 issue, that's an SJC issue. And i'm getting off topic now.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2007-12-11 01:11:07 and read 11850 times.



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 10):
Like i said, i like the MD-11 from a passenger point of view it's a great airplane, but out of four MD-11 flights I've taken in my life, three have had technical delays, i've also had an equipment sub due to an MD-11 going ots, that says something about the aircraft.

That is very dangerous generalization based on very little circumstancial evidence. As said before, the accellerated retirement of the MD11 from some airlines' passenger fleets has more to do with economical considerations than with a perceived lack of reliability of the aircraft. Swissair used its 19-strong MD11 fleet as the backbone of its longhaul fleet for many years with very high dispatch reliability (higher than that of the B743s and A332s). The recent string of technical issues with the MD11s in the AY and KL fleets are more likely to be attributed to overly optimistic utilization planning than to perceived technical inferiority of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Kappel
Posted 2007-12-11 01:36:00 and read 11819 times.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
I may have been unclear, but I was talking about what is currently being done to the MD11s, and for this winter season that is only the installation of the new WBC seats. As such, any PTVs in economy won't come before next winter at the earliest as the MD11 fleet will once again be deployed at maximum strength during the summer.

Ahh, I misunderstood indeed. That is dissapointing that they will wait a full year before installing the PTV's. So the MD11's will be flying for a full year with an extra "pouch" in the headrest, a-la LH.

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 9):
broken seats, horrible interiors, and noisy

I guess the problem with the seats and interiors are being adressed this winter, but are the MD11's really that much more noisy than, say a 744 or 777? Noise of course also greatly depends on the location in the aircraft. For example, I flew a CX a343 AMS-HKG-AMS, and on the HKG-AMS flight I was seated in the back and I found the aircraft to be quite noisy, especially on take-off, even though the a343 is supposed to be a very quiet aircraft.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: SIBILLE
Posted 2007-12-11 02:18:33 and read 11771 times.

No KLM cabin photos avaible?

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Lamedianaranja
Posted 2007-12-11 02:31:36 and read 11750 times.

I remember flying one when it was brandnew, CCS-AMS, just delivered.

The pilots were walking around all the time fiddling with the gadgets that were out of order, like reading lights, sound equipment. A/c was very fast and comfortable though compared to the DC10's used formerly on that route.

I'll be really sorry to see them go.

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: Flyboy_se
Posted 2007-12-11 18:17:13 and read 11522 times.

Thanks for all replies

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: PHKLM
Posted 2007-12-11 21:35:22 and read 11454 times.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 14):
The recent string of technical issues with the MD11s in the AY and KL fleets are more likely to be attributed to overly optimistic utilization planning than to perceived technical inferiority of the aircraft.

I respect your opinion very much HB-IWC, but may I dare to ask you the following:
How does that work? Airlines plan the M11 according to a viable schedule. That schedule allows for downtime of frames. Yet, the schedules at KL and AY are more often than not in need of adjustment, because the M11 has unscheduled downtime. I would agree with you if other planes were suffering from the same fate, but from your posts I can deduce KL is scheduling the 777 and 747 to the same extend, yet they seem to give less problems. Is there really no difference between the disruptions caused by the M11 and other types at AY and KL?

Topic: RE: Info On KLM MD-11 Cabin
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2007-12-11 23:30:31 and read 11411 times.



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
I would agree with you if other planes were suffering from the same fate, but from your posts I can deduce KL is scheduling the 777 and 747 to the same extend, yet they seem to give less problems.

One of the main reasons why the B747 and B777 operations at KLM are more stable than the MD11 operation, is that there are more aircraft in the fleet (17 B747M and 15 B777 vs just 10 MD11). A larger number of equally configured aircraft always works as a stabilizing factor to an operational environment because of increased flexibility.

A year or so ago, KLM had serious issues with the MD11 fleet, which had to do with one particular technical issue. That problem has been taken care of, and since then, the dispatch reliability of the MD11 fleet has been as good as that of the B747 fleet. As it goes, the least stable component in the current KLM longhaul fleet is the full passenger B744, of which the airline is operating a mere 5 units.

I am conviced that the KL and AY MD11 operations would become a lot more stable if the airlines involved would tone down their utilization expectations. AY has during the past summer been operating its 7-strong MD11 fleet with a utilization of well over 16 hours per day and with very little spare capacity at HEL. That has inevitably led to major operational instabilities and the airline surely knew what they were getting into while they were setting up this ludicrous schedule.

Equally so, KLM has been operating its MD11 with utilization rates similar to those of the B772 fleet. Not only the smaller fleet has provoked some problems, but also the fact that the MD11 is typically deployed on shorter sectors than the B772 and that the aircraft are therefore raking in relatively more cycles, again risking additional technical issues. If KLM were to reduce MD11 utilization to about to the 14.5 - 15 hour range, by incorporating additional spare capacity in the schedule, we would surely see a more stable operation.


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