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Topic: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2008-01-16 13:33:00 and read 4467 times.

I was wondering why AA has daily 777 service to LGW (soon switching to LHR) from RDU when STL is a bigger hub? I noticed that RDU has AA connections to smaller cities around the midwest. STL has the same and service to more cities on 757's. Just a thought.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: KSYR
Posted 2008-01-16 13:35:35 and read 4461 times.

RDU has the RTP (Research Triangle Park), with companies that subsidize the route. STL doesn't.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Chase
Posted 2008-01-16 13:35:41 and read 4461 times.

My memory is foggy, but isn't the RDU flight gov't-subsidized?

Also may have to do with geography. Imagine someone somewhere that is E of STL but W of RDU, who wants to go to LGW. Going through STL, they'd be backtracking.

But I certainly agree with you that STL *should* have a LON flight. Then again I grew up in STL so I'm a little sentimental  Smile

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: KcrwFlyer
Posted 2008-01-16 13:36:19 and read 4443 times.

Find some companies in St.Louis to pay for the flight and your dreams will come true. Thats why RDU has the flight.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: PITrules
Posted 2008-01-16 13:43:08 and read 4423 times.



Quoting Chase (Reply 2):
My memory is foggy, but isn't the RDU flight gov't-subsidized?

No, it isn't gov't subsidized. A profit is guaranteed to AA by RDU area corporations, the main beneficiaries of the flight.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: FlyBoy84
Posted 2008-01-16 13:47:19 and read 4398 times.

IIRC, the RDU-LGW flights are subsidized by business interests in the Raleigh-Durham area. Now exactly who that is is a horse of a different color.

I suppose that if business/industry/labor wanted to subsidize a flight to London by guaranteeing a certain number of purchased seats per year, then it's POSSIBLE. Otherwise, St. Louis is going to have to have a population explosion, generate more revenue with higher O&D, and develop more business ties with that part of the world in order to justify having such service.

TW used to have STL-LGW service, and hearing a couple of rampers talk about how AA was about to cancel it after the buyout. They were talking about how popular the flight was. But AA seems to have different priorities as far as the allocation of aircraft to routes and cities.

Oh WELL...  Sad

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Bond007
Posted 2008-01-16 13:50:20 and read 4378 times.



Quoting PITrules (Reply 4):
RDU area corporations



Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 5):
business interests in the Raleigh-Durham area

I think GlaxoSmithKline is the prime sponsor in this case.



Jimbo

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: JGPH1A
Posted 2008-01-16 14:01:38 and read 4334 times.



Quoting PITrules (Reply 4):
A profit is guaranteed to AA by RDU area corporations, the main beneficiaries of the flight.

and according to a high-up in AA's Revenue Management I spoke to, cargo. They make a ton of money on cargo on the route, hence the upgrade to a 777.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-01-16 14:05:34 and read 4308 times.



Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
I was wondering why AA has daily 777 service to LGW (soon switching to LHR) from RDU when STL is a bigger hub? I noticed that RDU has AA connections to smaller cities around the midwest. STL has the same and service to more cities on 757's. Just a thought.

AA is guarenteed to make a profit because some of the companies in the RDU area subsidize it. If they didnt, theres no way in hell AA would waste a precious 777 on any route from RDU.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2008-01-16 14:38:49 and read 4184 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):

Thank you for your insight. That is exactly what I was thinking. I didn't exactly think there was quite the demand for it. I guess the demand comes from Cargo like you said. I would really like to see a STL-LON route, but AA really neglects STL in many ways.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-01-16 15:06:01 and read 4089 times.



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 9):
Thank you for your insight. That is exactly what I was thinking. I didn't exactly think there was quite the demand for it. I guess the demand comes from Cargo like you said. I would really like to see a STL-LON route, but AA really neglects STL in many ways.

Im not so sure it comes from Cargo or if it comes from the premium seats on the plane. As for STL, its just that AA sees more vaule at ORD and DFW. Ive stated before that I remember reading an article in the Fort Worth Star Telegram when I was at TCU in Fort Worth about the reduction of STL. This was back in 2003. Basically the article stated that almost all of STL's resources would be shifted to DFW, not ORD. This was one of the moves that made DFW as big as it is today.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-01-16 15:08:07 and read 4081 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
If they didnt, theres no way in hell AA would waste a precious 777 on any route from RDU.

Nice..

Anyway, the flight is subsidized by local RTP companies in which GSK is one but not the only. Also, cargo on the flight is very healthy. It's basically that we want it so we pay for it.. no biggie regardless of what others think..

RDU is also looking for 2 more subsidized flights. We want them so we are willing to pay for them. Look for FRA nd CDG.. probably a case of smallest aircraft that could work on those 2 flights..

But if STL (or PIT, or CHM, or whomever) is looking for service, they are going to have to pony up the funds.. with fuel prices they way they are.. it's doubtful any airline will want to just start service for no reason...

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-01-16 17:31:31 and read 3868 times.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 7):
and according to a high-up in AA's Revenue Management I spoke to, cargo. They make a ton of money on cargo on the route, hence the upgrade to a 777.

There's quite a lot of cargo demand from the Carolinas to Britain. It's not unheard of for US to CLT-LGW cargo to ATL to be carried by BA or DL.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
This was back in 2003. Basically the article stated that almost all of STL's resources would be shifted to DFW, not ORD. This was one of the moves that made DFW as big as it is today.

AA clearly sees some value in STL. There's very little incentive for them to maintain a hub here outside of the hub making money.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: MrSTL
Posted 2008-01-17 09:53:31 and read 3579 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 11):
But if STL (or PIT, or CHM, or whomever) is looking for service, they are going to have to pony up the funds.. with fuel prices they way they are.. it's doubtful any airline will want to just start service for no reason...

Here is an article today which talks about previous and current efforts to attract international service to STL- Lambert.

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bus...r-tries-again-on-overseas-flights/

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-01-17 10:52:07 and read 3481 times.

Kennedy proposed doubling the state’s Aviation Trust Fund from $6 million to $12 million and allowing $2 million from that fund to be spent “to study or promote” expanded or existing domestic or international commercial airline service and to help regional airports that take part in federal efforts like the Essential Air Service program.

$2 Million really isn't a lot. Especially with the amount of areas they want to spread... new domestic, expanded domestic, new international, EAS service.. that's not a lot spread to a bunch of places.. course, they do say it is a study..

They need to just take the extra $6 million and split it 2 ways.. $3 Million to BA for London service and $3 Million to airline X for their 2nd internaitonal destination.. and just be done with it..

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: MrSTL
Posted 2008-01-17 10:55:32 and read 3476 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 14):
They need to just take the extra $6 million and split it 2 ways.. $3 Million to BA for London service and $3 Million to airline X for their 2nd internaitonal destination.. and just be done with it..

Agreed, however Kansas City will have something to say about that  Wink

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-01-17 11:05:30 and read 3433 times.



Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
Agreed, however Kansas City will have something to say about that

Why? and what 2 destinations is STL trying to get besides LON?

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2008-01-18 13:10:35 and read 3214 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
Why? and what 2 destinations is STL trying to get besides LON?

They could give the other 3 million to Lufthansa so they could have a A343 on STL-FRA daily!
 Big grin I smile, but I think it could be done.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: KcrwFlyer
Posted 2008-01-18 13:38:27 and read 3163 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 11):
RDU is also looking for 2 more subsidized flights. We want them so we are willing to pay for them. Look for FRA nd CDG.. probably a case of smallest aircraft that could work on those 2 flights..

PrivatAir BBJ's?

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2008-01-18 13:46:31 and read 3143 times.



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 18):
PrivatAir BBJ's?

Those only go to AMS right? I think that with CLT as close as it is, they won't be getting any more TATL service in the near future.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Access-Air
Posted 2008-01-18 14:14:49 and read 3080 times.



Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 5):
TW used to have STL-LGW service, and hearing a couple of rampers talk about how AA was about to cancel it after the buyout. They were talking about how popular the flight was. But AA seems to have different priorities as far as the allocation of aircraft to routes and cities.

Yes they would rather put passengers from STL thru DFW or ORD.....AA basically did to STL what they have done to other carriers that they have taken over. Not to the same extent, but STL's ops are nowhewre near they were when TWA was flying there....AA may have saved TWA in the short term but all they did was to come in and take what they wanted and leave scraps.
And as for St. Louis residants not being able to fill an aircraft to London or even Paris from STL, we are forgetting all of the out stations that used to feed the STL hub.
Obviously in a "Southwest Airlines Type" of operation where they neglect smaller cities altogether, this doesnt apply.
However, AA had a good regional airline serving the airport. One still wonders the AA Logic in not using STL to be a reliever to DFW but mostly ORD since ORD seems to be nothing but an O"Hassle....

I am sure that if AA took one of their little 767-200s (if they have the range) and flew it STL-LGW or LHR whichever they have access to, they could make some money....

Access-Air

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Argonaut
Posted 2008-01-18 17:54:22 and read 2964 times.



Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 5):
TW used to have STL-LGW service, and hearing a couple of rampers talk about how AA was about to cancel it after the buyout. They were talking about how popular the flight was.

Popular it certainly was! I made the TWA LGW-STL round trip on three occasions in 1990-1991, and every one of those 767s was 100% full. As in overbooked.

Of course, that was when STL was a *real* hub, with countless useful connections, especially (from the point-of-view of a trans-Atlantic service) west of the Big Muddy. Today, without that extensive STL-oriented network to sustain them, long-haul & international services are unfortunately going to be much less viable at STL. Just another gift from the wonderful high-ups at AA, I guess...  sigh 

Didn't BCal also offer daily DC-10 LGW-STL service? (I believe it routed via San Juan, at least for a time.) Latterly, IIRC, it was operated as a codeshare with Sabena using 747-300s originating in BRU.

Clearly, STL has not always been as off-the-international-map as it now seems to be....

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-01-18 18:28:11 and read 2911 times.

Well, one thing, at least STL hasn't turned into PIT, and SW keeps them open. There are still a lot of AA Connection and other regionals (Trans States being the biggest operator and the headquarters), as well as mainline. It's just a shame how that airport is run. Sure, they just built a new runway, a day late and a dollar short. The terminal hasn't changed much when I lived there as a kid from '83-'86. Even before I got based there about 20 years later, the place pretty much looked the same as if I never left. There could be plenty of improvements, but if AA isn't going to give it the funding and make it attractive to more business, I just have a feeling they would just as soon let it go. It's also a big military hub. Not everyone uses the pax terminal at Scott Air Force Base (Ironically they don't even have an aerial port, and that's AMC HQ). I'm surprised World and Omni don't fly to STL.

I remember in '86 or '87 after I moved to Virginia from STL reading RDU was planning on a big airport expansion to include a major and very modern air cargo facility. I was in my teens, but anything dealing with aviation was a must read for me. Slowly but surely, it seems RDU is reaching it's goal. I've done quite a few overnights there with Trans States and have seen both pax terminals. Not my favorite airport by a long shot, but at least it's improving.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-01-18 18:41:49 and read 2891 times.



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 22):
RDU was planning on a big airport expansion to include a major and very modern air cargo facility.

Really? wonder what happened to it?

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 22):
it seems RDU is reaching it's goal.

Really? where?

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 22):
Not my favorite airport by a long shot, but at least it's improving.

Nice...

Uhmm.. The new terminal will be great when it opens and the Blue Box will be just what LCC will want. I would love to see someone build a hangar or two at RDU.. well.. hopefully NetJets will build their hangars (even if it is by the National Guard) and the Air Medical Group will build a hanger there for their Ops.. but it would be nice to see a commercial airline with a hangar..

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2008-01-18 18:47:27 and read 2884 times.



Quoting Argonaut (Reply 21):
Just another gift from the wonderful high-ups at AA, I guess... sigh

Their version of a gift to STL is re-starting SPI twice a day.

Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 5):

TW used to have STL-LGW service, and hearing a couple of rampers talk about how AA was about to cancel it after the buyout. They were talking about how popular the flight was. But AA seems to have different priorities as far as the allocation of aircraft to routes and cities.

The viability of the route post-hub centers on the cargo loads it can produce, as it is assumed it will struggle up front and coach will be fairly full. From what I was told by a former VP, the cargo loads were miserable, or at least they were at the very end. Apparently there were some valuable cargo contracts with TWA that were dropped at some point, which could've been a big factor in them not choosing to continue operating the route.

One thing that any airline will obviously ask themselves is what exactly is in it (starting St. Louis, that is) for them? You're potentially investing a decent sum of money in a route that could tank or could turn out to be a marginal money maker. Therein lies the 40th flight a day to Chicago that at least has the potential to fill the plane upfront and be a cash cow.

In the end, for any airline to consider operating St. Louis-Europe there will have to be some solid incentives from both the city and the state. A day trip to the Brewery for LH executives wouldn't hurt, either.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-01-18 19:13:05 and read 2845 times.

Oh, I thought the AA part was new. It looks newer than the big blue box. And it seems I always saw construction.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering where that new modern cargo terminal was myself. It also had a planned automated bin system to move goods to where they are supposed to go, instead of someone actually having to bay cargo by hand.

Well, it's got to be better than 20 years ago, right? It's the one airport I know where I can run in and get some Popeye's Chicken on a quick turn, at least when I was doing USX flights.

Damn, I was starting to give RDU benefit of the doubt on reaching it's goal according to the Richmond Times-Dispatch article I read 20 years ago. Either way, GSO is down the road and then we'll see who the real winner is. Charlotte. Seriously, it did seem RDU was making some progress in the last couple of years from when I first started flying there. It really tripped me out to see a T7 there and I thought it was a divert when we parked near it. I not only took a double take, I had to take a third and fourth look. Then I found out that it will be more common. Wow, they are doing something right to get one a them bad boys up in there.

On a side note, NC has some pride, but between careers in aviation, how come the 3 R's in NC are "Readin', Ritin' (writing), and the Road to Richmond (Virginia)? Sorry, couldn't help that one, that just goes to all my North Carolinian friends from back in the day, and especially my old boss. He still commutes from Roanoke Rapids daily to Richmond. And yes, real Brunswick stew has squirrel meat.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-01-18 19:43:10 and read 2846 times.



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 24):

One thing that any airline will obviously ask themselves is what exactly is in it (starting St. Louis, that is) for them? You're potentially investing a decent sum of money in a route that could tank or could turn out to be a marginal money maker. Therein lies the 40th flight a day to Chicago that at least has the potential to fill the plane upfront and be a cash cow.

You have to figure that AA knows exactly how many people are connecting from STL to LHR at present (I was on the 1455 departure to ORD today and they read connecting gate info for 2 LHR flights), and they know how many people connect at ORD and DFW from places like XNA and BNA. After open skies, they could give it a shot if that number is high enough.

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 24):
In the end, for any airline to consider operating St. Louis-Europe there will have to be some solid incentives from both the city and the state. A day trip to the Brewery for LH executives wouldn't hurt, either.

Come on, now. LH executives like proper beer. (I do go to school in A-B hall; I shouldn't be ripping on A-B..)

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-01-18 20:25:35 and read 2802 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
Come on, now. LH executives like proper beer. (I do go to school in A-B hall; I shouldn't be ripping on A-B..)

Well, if Busch made real beer, like the original Buweiser, from Budwar, Czech Republic, the Germans may spark interest. Just kidding, but thinking of the Czechs and the Germans in the same sentence, have a feeling I just stepped out of PC bounds.

Speaking of overseas, I still have to go back to our military. At one point in time didn't MAC have an OL there until '92? Seems like I should know this as I was an air transportation specialist in the USAF. That's what I get for spending my whole time overseas, I didn't pay too much attention unless it came from downrange or the East Coast, mainly 22nd AF, if I even got that right. It got pretty blurry after we reorganized and became AMC.

I still don't see why AMC just doesn't make STL another OL. Well, there is Mid America Airport, and that would make a great pax terminal. If that's the case, just don't use STL at all as a rally point. Of course, individual troops need to go in and out of there, but for movement en-masse, don't bother with STL if all they are going to have is a USO. As a veteran I loved the USO to kill time in waiting for a flight or just spending time I don't have to spend in the crew room. My only bitch was not being able to get the European edition of the "Stars and Gripes". There are plenty of wasted gates on D concourse (another of my places to hang out other than the crew room), those would be great for military personnel leaving. Only problem is where would they clear customs coming back from down range? E terminal has customs now, right? The very end of the C concourse isn't being used and old customs is there. There are so many possibilities, why not use them?

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-01-18 20:29:11 and read 2792 times.



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 27):
Only problem is where would they clear customs coming back from down range? E terminal has customs now, right?

Yeah. It's supposed to be pretty nice (I haven't been in it), though it may not be big enough to comfortably handle a widebody full of troops and gear.

Topic: RE: Why Does RDU Have It And STL Doesn't?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-01-19 05:02:07 and read 2686 times.



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 25):
Oh, I thought the AA part was new.

Ahh.. Terminal C (the AA side) is about 22-ish years old. The oldest part of the blue box is well over 50 years old..

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 25):
It also had a planned automated bin system to move goods to where they are supposed to go, instead of someone actually having to bay cargo by hand.

That, I don't know.. but I don't think so.. they expanded the North Cargo area for the FedEx expansion, but not sure what they did.. I don't think it's automated. But Terminal A & C will have automated baggage systems in them.

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 25):
Seriously, it did seem RDU was making some progress in the last couple of years from when I first started flying there.

It depends on what kinda progress you are talking about.. what were you looking for?

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 25):
3 R's in NC are "Readin', Ritin' (writing), and the Road to Richmond (Virginia)

Hehehe.. Richmond? Why in the WORLD would anyone want to go TO Richmond? I can see going THROUGH on 95, but not too? I don't think I have ever actually stopped in Richmond.. but I can point out stuff along the 95 corridor...

Anyway, you will see a new RDU soon.. The new terminal should be really, really cool.. and the upgrades and updates to Terminal A should make it seem like a whole different animal (not that Frontier is coming, just borrowed the phrase)...

And where else in the nearby vacinity can you find an observation deck on BOTH runways.. and one with it's own cafe?


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