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Topic: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-02-07 09:38:47 and read 13279 times.

Following the presentation by Alsthom of the next generation of TGV-High speed train called AGV (Automotrice Grande Vitesse), Air France-KLM is said to be interested in acquiring/leasing 4 for them to start high speed train services between CDG Airport and AMS Schipol via BRU, starting 2010.

In 2010, the monopoly of the French National Railways Company (SNCF) on international services will end (and in 2017 for Domestic services).

Those trains would wear the Air France livery and could be leased and operated via a subsidiary company.

At the average speed of 360 km/h, the journey between Schipol and CDG would take 1h30.
The special high speed tracks are already operational to BRU and the last portion to AMS will be opened by the end of this year.



In French only : http://www.europe1.fr/informations/a...it-prendre-de-vitesse-la-sncf.html

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Humberside
Posted 2008-02-07 09:50:58 and read 13222 times.

How long before CDG-St Pancras (London). Its a much needed service IMO and I ca think of much better uses for slots at LHR than flights to CDG that can be replaced with high speed train service

Obviously high speed rail to LHR as well would be best, but the a St Pancras-CDG service would be better than nothing

[Edited 2008-02-07 09:54:51]

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-07 10:57:38 and read 13037 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
At the average speed of 360 km/h, the journey between Schipol and CDG would take 1h30.

They will never be able to make it in 1h30.

Although the trains will technically be able to reach 360 km/h, the track from Paris to Schiphol does not allow these speeds. There are also many parts of the track that are existing tracks, not high-speed, like:
Schiphol-Hoofddorp: 140 km/h (4 km, existing track)
Hoofddorp-Rotterdam: 300 km/h (only 15km)
Rotterdam-Lombarijden: 140 km/h (7km, existing track)
Lombardijen-Antwerpen: 300 km/h (37 km)
Antwerpen-Brussels: 160 km/h (existing track)

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Varig md-11
Posted 2008-02-07 11:05:58 and read 13010 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
At the average speed of 360 km/h, the journey between Schipol and CDG would take 1h30.
The special high speed tracks are already operational to BRU and the last portion to AMS will be opened by the end of this year.

After Antwerp the line will be shared by Thalys (Belgian,French,Dutch alliance) NS Hi-Speed (Dutch service from BRU to AMS), now AF and then maybe VS and others

if you want my 2 cents the trains will know as many delays as the planes: 3 completely different machine types (French Alsthom old generation, Italian Ansaldo Breda and French new Alstom AGV) = combination of old and new machines of different tech on the same railtrack

I use Thalys rail service to AMS every monday and I arrive late at work half of the time already for the very same reason: after Brussels/Antwerp we share the track with old Bombardier and Ansaldo Breda machinery finding a way to break down in the middle of the way

also consider that on the dutch side (between Antwerp and AMS) some NS trains will NOT run at above 250km/h

the icing of the cake is that speeds are also different:

Thalys = 300KM/H
NS HI-Speed = 250KM/H
AF AGV = 350KM/H

bon courage to AF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2008-02-07 11:09:25 and read 13001 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):

At the average speed of 360 km/h, the journey between Schipol and CDG would take 1h30.

how long is it between AMS and CDG by plane?

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-02-07 11:11:14 and read 12988 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
Although the trains will technically be able to reach 360 km/h, the track from Paris to Schiphol does not allow these speeds.

Are there any plans to upgrade the track to support the higher speeds?

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: CARST
Posted 2008-02-07 11:11:30 and read 12989 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
They will never be able to make it in 1h30.

Although the trains will technically be able to reach 360 km/h, the track from Paris to Schiphol does not allow these speeds. There are also many parts of the track that are existing tracks, not high-speed, like:
Schiphol-Hoofddorp: 140 km/h (4 km, existing track)
Hoofddorp-Rotterdam: 300 km/h (only 15km)
Rotterdam-Lombarijden: 140 km/h (7km, existing track)
Lombardijen-Antwerpen: 300 km/h (37 km)
Antwerpen-Brussels: 160 km/h (existing track)



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
At the average speed of 360 km/h, the journey between Schipol and CDG would take 1h30.
The special high speed tracks are already operational to BRU and the last portion to AMS will be opened by the end of this year.

Perhaps you should read carefully. If FlsySSC's source (see his thread) is right, the high speed rails only exist till BRU (starting in CDG) and will be build on the BRU-AMS leg this year. (The source says the works will be finished by the end of this year, so perhaps they are already building them.)


Topic:
I think it is a very smart move. From 2010 onwards flight operations between KL and AF can be synchronized much better. The AirFrance-KLM merger could work much better this way and a lot of slots can be used for more longhaul flights, as flights between CDG and AMS aren't needed anymore.

The question remains how much time is needed from gate (in CDG) to gate (AMS) and visa versa. If it only will take something like 15 minutes, it would be perfect for them, as for a passenger it won't matter if you spend your 2 hours between flights at the terminal or in a train with large seats, a lot of seat space and a bar waggon.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-07 11:22:23 and read 12906 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 6):
Perhaps you should read carefully. If FlsySSC's source (see his thread) is right, the high speed rails only exist till BRU (starting in CDG) and will be build on the BRU-AMS leg this year. (The source says the works will be finished by the end of this year, so perhaps they are already building them.)


Carst, the tracks I wrote about ARE the tracks you are talking about. They started building in 2000. The track itself is completely ready, but the security systems isn't ready yet.

This project consists of two new tracks: (errors in my previous lengths, sorry)
* 20 km new track (correction) from Rotterdam Centraal to Hoofddorp (4 km from Schiphol, where it will join the existing line)
* around 100 km new track from Rotterdam Lombardijen (7 km from Rotterdam centraal) to Antwerpen Centraal.

These tracks allow 300 km/h.

And one upgraded track:
Antwerpen Centraal - Brussels North: 160 km/h.

This is the new track you are talking about.


Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

Are there any plans to upgrade the track to support the higher speeds?

I don't know about the Belgian part, but for the Dutch part:
* The existing tracks (Schiphol-Hoofddorp and Rotterdam-Lombardijen) will not be replaced, as these are merely tunnel tracks and tracks through central Rotterdam
* I don't know if the infrastructure is technically capable of 360, but as the NS Hispeed trains will only run at 250, I doubt they will allow 360.

[Edited 2008-02-07 11:23:50]

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: CARST
Posted 2008-02-07 11:29:16 and read 12853 times.

And by reading that another question pops up my head ...

(Sorry i don't want to hijack your thread, but...)

... why doesn't LH and DB (Deutsche Bahn) manage to build something like this?


CDG-BRU-AMS - 272mi / 236nm / 438km - 1:30h (from 2010)
FRA-STR-MUC - 215mi / 186nm / 346km - 4:25h
FRA-HAJ-SXF - 318mi / 276nm / 512km - 5:19h


We seem to have quite slow connections here in Germany compared to the new AF project. Anyone know why? And why nothing is done to cut the times down? There is so much talk in this country about our fast high speed trains, but they don't seem to be an alternative to airplanes. Considering check in times on national flights (not so long compared to long haul) there is no reason to take the train for the above mentioned legs.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: CARST
Posted 2008-02-07 11:37:04 and read 12811 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
...

Carst, the tracks I wrote about ARE the tracks you are talking about. They started building in 2000. The track itself is completely ready, but the security systems isn't ready yet.

...

Okay i didn't know that, so i stand corrected. Thx for the information.

And u didn't know that, but AF will know that. I think they will make their plans with the correct numbers and won't take their 1:30h number out of nowhere. If they say theay will make it in this time it will be possible.


And i would think all major airlines around the world should think about connecting their hubs that aren't farther apart than about 400 to 500km (300mi) with high speed trains. Would free up slots, be more efficient and could be faster on that small distances than using a plane (with boarding, taxiing (think about taxi queues), de-boarding, etc.).

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2008-02-07 11:38:35 and read 12807 times.

Without doubt the new high speed train connections are great, but the railroad tracks so far are far from being completed everywhere.

I retired my VW bug car (it will get reactivated in some years once I got the money to restore it), and thus I must rely on Deutsche Bahn at the moment.

From Siegburg/Bonn close to Bonn, to Augsburg, where I live now, I sometimes manage to get good offers on the ICE train.

The trip takes 3 hours 40, very good compared to 5-6 hours by car (even a modern one cannot get you there faster than maybe 4 hours).

However, it takes 2 hours to get to Stuttgart (40 minutes to Frankfurt Airport, from there around 40 minutes to Mannheim, and then 40 minutes to Stuttgart).

From Stuttgart, it takes another 1 hour 50 minutes due to the 160 year old railtrack between Stuttgart and Augsburg.

Speed between Siegburg-Frankfurt: 300 km/h, Frankfurt - Mannheim 160 to 200 km/h (will be rebuilt on some years to 300 km/h, but is acceptable already), Mannheim-Stuttgart 250 km/h (one of the oldest German high speed tracks).

From Stuttgart to Ulm, it is 50 minutes with an average speed of 120 or so, going down to 70 on the Geislinger Steige. A new 250 km/h track will be built between Stuttgart and Ulm until 2020. Augsburg - Ulm remains rather slow for the foreseeable future. Augsburg - Munich will be 230 km/h in one year, it is 200 at the moment.

So do not get fooled by trains just because they are able to go 300. This is an impressive achievement, and everybody who has been on the ICE between Frankfurt and Cologne will be extremely expressed. But there are still lots of slow tracks remaining, where the ICE is only a little bit faster than the steam trains in the 1950s...

Michael

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: SQ6807
Posted 2008-02-07 11:53:21 and read 12746 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
Carst, the tracks I wrote about ARE the tracks you are talking about. They started building in 2000. The track itself is completely ready, but the security systems isn't ready yet.

Joost, given what you say about the tracks, are you able to provide an estimate of how long you think the CDG-AMS run would be, if not 1.30hrs, how much longer?

It strikes me that while the distance between CDG and AMS is about *ten times* longer than between LHR and LGW, KL/AF may well be able to offer better connectivity between its two main hubs than BA can!

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: CARST
Posted 2008-02-07 11:54:53 and read 12733 times.

Thats why i think there should be much more effort to build high speed tracks on important routes like FRA-STR-MUC and FRA-HAJ-SXF (SXF will be BBI). 300km/h+ should be the speed on these tracks without parts with lower speeds.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-02-07 11:59:39 and read 12698 times.

The distance between CDG Airport and Schipol is around 480km.

Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 11):
are you able to provide an estimate of how long you think the CDG-AMS run would be, if not 1.30hrs, how much longer?

The medias reporting the information today, were talking of 1h30 or "less than 2 hours" (sic).

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2008-02-07 12:15:06 and read 12620 times.



Quoting CARST (Reply 12):

But you know how expensive a high speed train connection through Germany is, do you? Germany isn't exactly flat, and already the high-speed lane Hanover-Würzburg cost several billion Euros. Constant effort is undertaken to build more high-speed railroads. I just don't see how this could be done faster with the existing budget.

Wikipedia, btw, has a nice map about the German high-speed railroad network.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:ICE_Network.png

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: PHKLM
Posted 2008-02-07 12:28:14 and read 12557 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
I don't know if the infrastructure is technically capable of 360, but as the NS Hispeed trains will only run at 250, I doubt they will allow 360

Design speed is 300 km/h.
Bear in mind it doesn't make sense to go any faster, the first track is only 20km long, it takes a mere 4 minutes to cover this at full speed, the time it takes to reach any speeds higher than 300 km/h will likely be useless, as it simply it to short to make any real difference.
The second stretch (Rotterdam - Antwerp) is only 70km long (HST track), so it takes only 14 minutes to cover this. Running at 360km/h would cut this to 11,5 minutes, a gain of 2,5 minutes.
This clearly shows the LGV Nord in its current form is never going to compete with air travel of you purely look at the AMS-CDG stretch. The project lacks a by-pass around Brussels, a HST track between Brussels and Antwerp, a by-pass around Antwerp, a by-pass around Rotterdam and HST track between Schiphol and Amsterdam. I realize adding these by-passes would make the project incredibly expensive, still it is the only way to win a race AMS-CDG by train. For now flying is much faster, considering check-in 45 mins prior to departure and a 1 hr flight.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-02-07 12:37:07 and read 12527 times.



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
For now flying is much faster, considering check-in 45 mins prior to departure and a 1 hr flight.

My last flight CDG to AMS (no ATC delay):

Taxiing CDG : 24 mn (from 2F to take off from 09R)
Flight time (T.O to landing) : 46 mn)
Taxiing at AMS : 28 mn (landing on 18R)

Total from gate to gate : 1h38

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-07 12:56:21 and read 12455 times.



Quoting CARST (Reply 9):
And u didn't know that, but AF will know that. I think they will make their plans with the correct numbers and won't take their 1:30h number out of nowhere. If they say theay will make it in this time it will be possible.

What is mentioned in the media is not always the same as stated by the airline. 1:30 is absolutely impossible for CDG-AMS by train. The current Thalys at a full-track HST Paris Nord - Brussels Midi takes already 1:22 running 300 km/h all the way. There is no possible way to run Brussels-Schiphol in 8 minutes.

Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 11):
Joost, given what you say about the tracks, are you able to provide an estimate of how long you think the CDG-AMS run would be, if not 1.30hrs, how much longer?

From the High Speed Alliance: http://www.highspeedalliance.nl/static/hsa/nl/trajecten.html
These values are for the HST(!!!):

Amsterdam - Rotterdam: 0:36
Amsterdam - Antwerpen: 1:10
Amsterdam - Brussel Zuid: 1:56
Amsterdam - Parijs: 3:13 min

Now the sector Amsterdam-Schiphol is 16 minutes, so Schiphol-Paris Nord will be 2:57. CDG is 12 minutes shorter, so travel time will be 2:45.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
The second stretch (Rotterdam - Antwerp) is only 70km long (HST track), so it takes only 14 minutes to cover this. Running at 360km/h would cut this to 11,5 minutes, a gain of 2,5 minutes.

Are you sure about the 70km number? Rotterdam-Antwerp is longer; which part is conventional track, besides the 7km to Lombardijen? Anyway, the travel times indicate 50 minutes.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
The project lacks a by-pass around Brussels

It would never generate enough pax on Amsterdam to Paris alone. Keep in mind one Thalys train seats more pax than an A380.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
a HST track between Brussels and Antwerp,

Biggest mistake. Not only for the speed (that doesn't matter much), but because of interference with other trains.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
It is the only way to win a race AMS-CDG by train.

For the O&D market, it's perfectly fine. For the AF-KL hub connection, it's no alternative indeed.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: R2rho
Posted 2008-02-07 13:25:52 and read 12354 times.

AF an integrated multimodal carrier? Sounds good, it could very well be the future!  thumbsup 

Quoting CARST (Reply 8):
... why doesn't LH and DB (Deutsche Bahn) manage to build something like this?

I've always asked myself why they didn't make the Munich-Nürnberg line pass through MUC. Such a wasted opportunity...

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 14):
Germany isn't exactly flat

No, but it's quite flat compared to, say, Spain, so that's not really an excuse  Wink

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2008-02-07 14:26:41 and read 12203 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 17):
The current Thalys at a full-track HST Paris Nord - Brussels Midi takes already 1:22 running 300 km/h all the way.

Actually they run at 300kmh only about 3/4ths of the way. The rest is run at slower speed for various reasons including lack of high speed tracks approaching Brussels between roughly Brussels Forest and Brussels Midi and also Paris Nord to Villiers le Belle Gonesse. Admittedly, at least at the Paris end things are not going to change, although the routing from CDG to the main LGV Nord Europa is a high speed line thus avoiding the slow portion between Paris Nord and the LGV.. At the Brussels end if the Eurocrats are really serious about this service they ought to consider doing something to transit across Brussels faster.

But all said, I agree with you that with current and currently planned/under construction infrastructure 1:30 from CDG to AMS will be difficult if not impossible.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: A380US
Posted 2008-02-07 19:36:32 and read 11779 times.

Wow first charter airlines then all business class and now trains??
What is next for the airlines?

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-02-07 19:46:47 and read 11714 times.

Excellent! I would love to be able to go to Paris, then take a daytrip up to Amsterdam via HSR!

2010? Yeah, I should be able to afford that by then...  duck 

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Babybus
Posted 2008-02-07 22:11:02 and read 11107 times.

So airlines will evolve into high speed travel providers. That's a great way forward.

I don't have time to look it up but isn't BA a major shareholder in Eurostar? If so, the concept of an airline running a train service isn't new.  Wink

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: TGV
Posted 2008-02-07 23:43:04 and read 10766 times.



Quoting CARST (Reply 9):
And u didn't know that, but AF will know that. I think they will make their plans with the correct numbers and won't take their 1:30h number out of nowhere.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 13):
The medias reporting the information today, were talking of 1h30 or "less than 2 hours" (sic).

Media are not more accurate when they report about rail than when they report about air transport !

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
Bear in mind it doesn't make sense to go any faster, the first track is only 20km long, it takes a mere 4 minutes to cover this at full speed, the time it takes to reach any speeds higher than 300 km/h will likely be useless, as it simply it to short to make any real difference.
The second stretch (Rotterdam - Antwerp) is only 70km long (HST track), so it takes only 14 minutes to cover this. Running at 360km/h would cut this to 11,5 minutes, a gain of 2,5 minutes.

In addition of the speed, acceleration times have to be considered: when you have a short stretch of line with a higher speed, you need some time (and distance) to reach this maximum speed from the entry point of the stretch.

And the higher the speed you enter, the lower the acceleration rate available.

For initial estimations we (as my pseudo suggests I have some railway knowledge) we usually consider for such acceleration rates:
- 300 to 330: 0.2 m/s2
- 330 to 360: 0.1 m/s2

With such values you need more than 10 km to pass from 300 to 360 km/h.
And at the exit you have to brake to pass the end of the section at the lower speed (deceleration rate: -0.2 m/s2).

Therefore it is important to have long sections with high speed if you want to make the most of high speeds.

Another point that is implicit is the capacity of a railway line: the higher capacity is obtained when the speeds of trains running on the line are similar.

The higher the differences between speeds, the lower the line capacity. From the infrastructure point of view having trains with max speed of 250 and 360 on the same section is not good at all.

Considering the 70 km section mentioned above, max speed of 250 and 360, running times rounded to 17 minutes for 250 and 12 for 360 (train schedules are built with a 60 sec or 30 sec accuracy depending on networks), and headway (time between 2 following trains) of 3 minutes, if you want to have a 360 km/h train running in a schedule built for 250 km/h trains, the 360 train will "cost" (i.e. use the same time/space on the line) than 2.66 trains running at 250.

So it is likely the infrastructure manager will price the 360 km/h path (a path is to the timing of the movement of a train along a given route) far higher than a 250 km/h path.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-08 01:29:08 and read 10341 times.



Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 19):
Actually they run at 300kmh only about 3/4ths of the way. The rest is run at slower speed for various reasons including lack of high speed tracks approaching Brussels between roughly Brussels Forest and Brussels Midi and also Paris Nord to Villiers le Belle Gonesse.

Of course, you are right. Also the Paris Nord - Brussels stretch has some slower portions, mostly close to the cities, just like the rest of the line. (or almost any HST) What I actually meant is that the Brussels-Paris/CDG track does not allow too much speed improvements. (Except of course the 17km section south of Brussels, but I doubt it.

IMO, the Brussels South - Antwerp Central section is the most appealing stretch to upgrade to full HST.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 15):
Bear in mind it doesn't make sense to go any faster, the first track is only 20km long, it takes a mere 4 minutes to cover this at full speed, the time it takes to reach any speeds higher than 300 km/h will likely be useless, as it simply it to short to make any real difference.

I always wondered why they actually designed the link at 300 km/h. Running maximum 300 km/h instead of 250 km/h on the Rotterdam-Schiphol section saves what? 1 minute?

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2008-02-08 02:00:15 and read 10196 times.



Quoting CARST (Reply 8):

CDG-BRU-AMS - 272mi / 236nm / 438km - 1:30h (from 2010)
FRA-STR-MUC - 215mi / 186nm / 346km - 4:25h
FRA-HAJ-SXF - 318mi / 276nm / 512km - 5:19h

Off topic, but let me answer anyway. It is not quite THAT bad. The problem is that MUC has no real train connection to Munich. When (or better said IF) the Transrapid comes, this will change, you will then probably only need around 3 hours from FRA to MUC (once the track Stuttgart-Ulm is complete). FRA - STR is already very fast, and will get even better once the new high-speed track FRA-Mannheim is built (at the moment the track is not bad, but it will be rebuilt for 300 km/h.

Wikipedia.de has quite some good articles on the new high-speed tracks.
The trip to SXF has the problem that the East-West connections in Germany still leave a lot to be desired, here the border can virtually still be seen. Don't forget that there weren't built new railroads between the early 1920s and 1980s at all, and the GDR network was in rather bad condition, they even had steam trains until the late 1980s.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Vinniewinnie
Posted 2008-02-08 04:13:18 and read 9866 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 24):
IMO, the Brussels South - Antwerp Central section is the most appealing stretch to upgrade to full HST.

Spot on! The North-South tunnel in Brussels allowing trains to pass through Brussels without reversing is 40-50KM/h max speed so you actually already waste 7 to 10 minutes. Add to that the fact that it is a very busy tunnel where most Belgian trains converge and that there are only 6 tracks there is and probably never will be a dedicated track for HST on that stretch. And I'm not even talking about delays here...

Brussels to Antwerp has 4 tracks but is slow very slow. The fastest trains today are actually slower than those 40 years ago!

Quoting Joost (Reply 17):
From the High Speed Alliance: http://www.highspeedalliance.nl/static/hsa/nl/trajecten.html
These values are for the HST(!!!):

Amsterdam - Rotterdam: 0:36
Amsterdam - Antwerpen: 1:10
Amsterdam - Brussel Zuid: 1:56
Amsterdam - Parijs: 3:13 min

Now the sector Amsterdam-Schiphol is 16 minutes, so Schiphol-Paris Nord will be 2:57. CDG is 12 minutes shorter, so travel time will be 2:45.

Correct! Wonder if they weren´t talking about a dedicated Brussels -CDG service when doing this announcement!

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-08 05:07:09 and read 9600 times.



Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):

Correct! Wonder if they weren´t talking about a dedicated Brussels -CDG service when doing this announcement!

That's what I was thinking. Currently, Brussels-CDG trains stop for over 10 minutes in Lille. Non-stop, they can run it in 1:10. Brussels-AMS (Schiphol) trains will run in something like 1:40.

For passengers to/from Brussels, it offers a nice choice to two hubs. (So people could do Brussels-AMS-LAX-CDG-Brussels, with the European sector by train). I actually expect KLM to drop their AMS-BRU flights after the introduction of the High speed services Amsterdam-Brussels. By the way, KLM is 10% shareholder in the High Speed Alliance (10% KLM, 90% NS) that will run the Amsterdam-Brussels services. (but at 250 km/h, and calling at Breda).

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-02-08 05:18:11 and read 9526 times.

Good news, the booking system for European trains in other EU countries are in a mess. Any bonus flightmiles given on trains BTW?

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-08 05:30:00 and read 9460 times.



Quoting Joost (Reply 27):
By the way, KLM is 10% shareholder in the High Speed Alliance (10% KLM, 90% NS) that will run the Amsterdam-Brussels services. (but at 250 km/h, and calling at Breda).

Correction: the Amsterdam-Brussels services will not call at Breda. The following will be the schedule:
1 tph Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels-Paris (Thalys, 300km/h)
1 tph Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels (NS/HSA, 250 km/h)
2 tph Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Breda (NS/HSA, 250 km/h)
2 tph Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam (NS/HSA, 250 km/h)

and:
8 trains per day The Hague - Rotterdam - Breda - Antwerp - Brussels

Also at 250 km/h (iso 300), Brussels-Schiphol will be something like 1:40, 1:45.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Ferroviarius
Posted 2008-02-08 06:02:48 and read 9269 times.



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 25):
Off topic, but let me answer anyway. It is not quite THAT bad. The problem is that MUC has no real train connection to Munich. When (or better said IF) the Transrapid comes, this will change,

Well, yes and no. This Transrapid is, as some of you will know, a really touchy issue. I do personally think it would be much better to link the classic high speed lines to MUC. There will anyway not be a transrapid (=German version of MAGLEV) network within the foreseeable future, and, personally, I do not see any use for it during the forthcoming decades. Better to invest money in an existing network that also can take heavy trains or fast good trains (ref. TGV Poste in France and the soon-to-be operable TGV Fret, able to accept standard LD3s).

Best wishes,

Ferroviarius

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Gorgos
Posted 2008-02-08 07:41:20 and read 8846 times.

Going from city center to city center, the highspeed train link is going to be faster. I've taken the Thalys numerous times. Sure, flying is fun, but...its also tireing, noise, getting of from trains, cars, busses, airplane etc.
For people that care to work abit, the TGV is as steady as a rock. Wagons share the undercarriage, which is not the case with the German ICE. Working on a lapotop is perfectly doable.

I would have supported the train over the airplane even before the highspeed upgrade in the netherlands. I think Amsterdam - Paris with new track in Holland is going to take 2.45h if I remember correctly. That makes it even more attractive.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: BlueFlyer
Posted 2008-02-08 08:46:25 and read 8480 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
services between CDG Airport and AMS Schipol via BRU, starting 2010.

BRU the airport or BRU the city ?

Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
The track itself is completely ready, but the security systems isn't ready yet.

Is that why it doesn't work as a high speed track ? I have taken several trips between Brussels and AMS both ways. The first was probably a strategic mistake on my part to expect much (it was the very day the new high speed section was opened), but the others weren't much of an improvement and I have basically given up on flying out of AMS unless I have no other option. I'm tired of admiring Feyenoord stadium track-side up and down...

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: R2rho
Posted 2008-02-08 10:11:42 and read 8087 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 28):
Any bonus flightmiles given on trains BTW?

Yup. You get AF miles for taking the Thalys CDG-Brussels, and you book the ticket through the AF website as if it were a connecting flight.

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 30):

Well, yes and no. This Transrapid is, as some of you will know, a really touchy issue. I do personally think it would be much better to link the classic high speed lines to AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC. There will anyway not be a transrapid (=German version of MAGLEV) network within the foreseeable future, and, personally, I do not see any use for it during the forthcoming decades.

Totally agree. Linking AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC to HSR would provide true intermodal transport - fast link to Munich downtown AND fast link to everywhere else in Germany, all in one. Transrapid is just a fast airport shuttle - it would take you downtown, then you'd still need to take the HSR from there to where you really need to go.

Alas, as in said in my post, when they build the Munich-Nürnberg line, they decided to bypass the airport by a couple km, rather than build a stop there. Who knows why...  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: Joost
Posted 2008-02-08 10:44:42 and read 8016 times.



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 32):
Is that why it doesn't work as a high speed track ? I have taken several trips between Brussels and AMS both ways. The first was probably a strategic mistake on my part to expect much (it was the very day the new high speed section was opened), but the others weren't much of an improvement and I have basically given up on flying out of AMS unless I have no other option.

The track is not even used by trains yet. I don't understand how you could have taken the train on the new high-speed section, as no trains are running on it yet (except for the test-trains).

Or do you mean the Antwerp tunnel? That is indeed part of the new high-speed track, but the actual high-speed track will start after that tunnel, but is not operational yet. So you just took the train over the current network.

Or do you mean the NS Hispeed branded trains? In that case, nothing has changed: that is just the old NS International, with new colors.

Or did you travel by Thalys? Thalys, and NS Hispeed both run on conventional track north of Brussels.

The High-speed track is now planned to open this summer.

Topic: RE: Air France To Operate AGV (High Speed Train)
Username: JoFMO
Posted 2008-02-09 03:28:33 and read 7734 times.



Quoting R2rho (Reply 33):

Alas, as in said in my post, when they build the Munich-Nürnberg line, they decided to bypass the airport by a couple km, rather than build a stop there. Who knows why... Yeah sure

In fact they only build a new line on the northern half between Ingolstadt and Nuremberg. The southern section into Munich goes over the upgraded old line. This line is bypassing MUC since 150 years by 25km. So not really the railway's fault. The question is more what morons built the airport at this stupid location....
It would have not been worth to build a complete new line for the rest of the way into Munich and link it via the airport. Passengers to Munich which are the vast majority would even have had longer journey times by running via the airport.

Quoting Gorgos (Reply 31):
I would have supported the train over the airplane even before the highspeed upgrade in the netherlands. I think Amsterdam - Paris with new track in Holland is going to take 2.45h if I remember correctly. That makes it even more attractive.

As mentioned before Amsterdam-Paris will be around 3:10 from Dezember 2008 with Thalys (300km/h). (hopefully the Thalys will be equipped with the train safety system until then.
The local high speed trains (250km/h) between Amsterdam and Brussels are several years late. They are from Ansaldo in Italy and Ansoldo is kind of always late.....Therefore in the interim they will deploy the old coaches with freight locos (160km/) und run the between Brussels and Amsterdam from the Summer this year.


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