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Topic: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2008-02-17 23:51:41 and read 8410 times.

When did KLM begin serving Chicago and Toronto? Were there any cities on the North American continent besides New York, Montreal, Houston and Mexico City to which KLM launched service prior to Chicago and Toronto?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: PW100
Posted 2008-02-18 09:45:43 and read 8129 times.

High TB,

Maybe a little more than you asked for, but here is some brief information on KLM long haul flight history . . .

The very first KLM flight departed Schiphol on May 17 1920 to London [Creydon, later known as Croydon]. The plane was leased from AT&T [Air Transport and Travel Ltd.]

First long haul flight outside Europe was to the east; Batavia, [Jakarta] departed AMS on Oct 01 1924. This was a one-off flight. Regular bi-weekly services started Sep 12 1929.

First Trans Atlantic flight was on Dec 15 1934 to Curacao [one off], regular services started in 1939 [including Port of Spain and Paramaribo].

KLM first flight to New York [Idlewild, now JFK] departed AMS Feb 25 1946 [one-off flight]. Regular services, 2x weekly, started on May 21 1946. On June 06 1946, one weekly flight was extended to Curacao.


I was not able to recover all TA first flight dates as I do not have access to my old KLM time tables at the moment. This is what I could easily recover . . .

Year destination [regular services]
1920 London
1929 Jakarta
1946 New York, Cuarcao, Rio de Janeiro, Montevideo
1947 Johannesburg, Tel Aviv, Baghdad
1948 Tehran
1948 Buenos Aires, Montreal
1949 Paramaribo, Panama, Georgetown
1950 Dahran, Brazzaville
1951 Beirut, Tokyo, Manilla, Sydney
1952 Mexico City, Santiago de Chile
1953 Abadan
1954 Guayaquil
1955 New Delhi
1957 Houston
1958 Kuala Lumpur, Anchorage, Tripoli
1959 Saigon
1960 Amman, Benghazi, Accra, Monrovia, Conakry, Jeddah
1961 Lagos, Caracas
1963 Kuwait, Abidjan
1967 Freetown,
1969 Entebbe, Nairobi, Dar-Es-Salaam, Damascus
1970 Chicago, Barbados, Kinshasha
1971 Hong Kong
1972 Quito, Bangkok
1973 Bahrain
1974 Toronto
1976 Abu Dhabi, Guatemala
1978 Kilimanjaro
1979 Los Angeles, Dubai
1981 Atlanta
1986 Calgary, Vancouver
1983 Harare
1984 Doha, Seoul
1986 Bali/Denpassar
1988 Orlando
1990 Washington/Baltimore, Halifax, Ottawa
1991 Minneapolis
1992 Detroit, Bogota, Bombay, Calcutta
1993 San Fransisco
1994 Osaka
1995 Memphis
2003 Seattle
2007 Hartford

Rgards,
PW100

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Misbeehavin
Posted 2008-02-18 10:15:53 and read 8044 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
Year destination [regular services]
1920 London
1929 Jakarta

There must have been several stops on the way, right? Central / Eastern Europe, Middle East, India etc?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: PW100
Posted 2008-02-18 12:03:46 and read 7921 times.



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 2):
There must have been several stops on the way, right? Central / Eastern Europe, Middle East, India etc

I believe London was non-stop, but Jakarta most definately had multiple stops, although I can't name them at the moment. Net flying time was 89 hours, and total travel time twelve [!] days. In 1931 the Fokker F.XII was introduced, cutting total travel time to 10 days, and doubling frequency to weekly rotations.

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2008-02-18 12:35:23 and read 7873 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
This is what I could easily recover . . .

Thank you for answering my question about ORD and YYZ first service dates and more. Inasmuch as KLM service to the U.S. (even in the pre-NW alliance context) has to me seemed extensive for many years, it is both surprising and interesting to me that KLM started ORD as "late in the game" as 1970. Was it, perhaps, due to more restrictive bilateral agreements of the time and HOU was a better choice for the "second city" KLM was allowed to serve in the U.S.?

By the way, since of timetables are mentioned, the underlying reason for my question is my quest for a KLM timetable dated at or immediately after the addition of AMS-ORD-AMS. And, since KLM's first 747s were "just around the corner" in 1970 and DC-10s were further away, I am assuming that KLM started AMS-ORD with DC-8 equipment (which is all the better in suiting my interests in timetable collecting).

Anyone know whether KLM's initial services to ORD were non-stop or via an intermediate stop? And the weekly frequency of flights?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Misbeehavin
Posted 2008-02-18 12:55:38 and read 7828 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
but Jakarta most definately had multiple stops, although I can't name them at the moment. Net flying time was 89 hours, and total travel time twelve [!] days

Found it! The route was:

Amsterdam
[Leipzig / Budapest / Nice / Geneva]
Athens
Alexandria, Gaza (Egypt)
Baghdad (Iraq)
Buschir, Jask (Iran)
Karachi, Jodhpur, Allahabad, Calcutta, Rangoon (India)
Bangkok (Siam)
Alor Star (Malaya)
Medan (Netherlands East Indies)
Singapore (Malaya)
Palembang, Batavia (Netherlands East Indies)

http://www.timetableimages.com/i-kl/kl3302.jpg

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2008-02-18 13:13:33 and read 7791 times.



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 5):
Found it! The route was:

Well there have been several routes due to political issue's.
http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/picture...%20Amsterdam%20Batavia%20groot.jpg

Some more info about the KL Batavia route in English including some nice photos.
http://www.avsim.com/hangar/flight/d...tory_amsterdambatavia_line_eng.htm

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2008-02-18 13:27:26 and read 7742 times.



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 4):
And, since KLM's first 747s were "just around the corner" in 1970 and DC-10s were further away, I am assuming that KLM started AMS-ORD with DC-8 equipment

I was wondering this too. Also, has KL operated any other equipment other than the 747 to ORD once the jumbo entered the fleet?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-02-18 13:45:44 and read 7701 times.



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 5):
Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
but Jakarta most definately had multiple stops, although I can't name them at the moment. Net flying time was 89 hours, and total travel time twelve [!] days

Found it! The route was:

Amsterdam
[Leipzig / Budapest / Nice / Geneva]
Athens
Alexandria, Gaza (Egypt)
Baghdad (Iraq)
Buschir, Jask (Iran)
Karachi, Jodhpur, Allahabad, Calcutta, Rangoon (India)
Bangkok (Siam)
Alor Star (Malaya)
Medan (Netherlands East Indies)
Singapore (Malaya)
Palembang, Batavia (Netherlands East Indies)

I think it made more stops than that but some were only fuel stops. In 1937 when the DC-3 was introduced, the AMS-Batavia flights made 20 intermediate stops, 6 of which were overnight stops eastbound (one less night stop westbound). Their 1937 AMS-Batavia timetable below, includes schedules and fares, and a photo of their longhaul DC-3 cabin which had an early version of sleeper seats.
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/kl37b/

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-02-18 14:42:10 and read 7606 times.

Im kinda shocked that they flew to Houston (HOU) in 1957.....Was it a DC-7? What was the routing, was it via YUL?

Houston in 1957 was a little hick town, big on oil sure but there was no north sea oil until 1973.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-02-18 15:04:33 and read 7568 times.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
Im kinda shocked that they flew to Houston (HOU) in 1957.....

Video of Houston City Council presentation to KL last September celebrating their 50 years of service. Houston was added as an intemediate stop on KL's AMS-YUL-MEX route..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFFGIAXLPg&feature=related

There's quite a bit of information on the following Houston history page of KL's efforts to obtain traffic rights at Houston.
http://www.houstonhistory.com/decades/history5n.htm

[Edited 2008-02-18 15:40:50]

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: BoeingFever777
Posted 2008-02-18 15:08:34 and read 7555 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
Year destination [regular services]
1920 London
1929 Jakarta
1946 New York, Cuarcao, Rio de Janeiro, Montevideo
1947 Johannesburg, Tel Aviv, Baghdad
1948 Tehran
1948 Buenos Aires, Montreal
1949 Paramaribo, Panama, Georgetown
1950 Dahran, Brazzaville
1951 Beirut, Tokyo, Manilla, Sydney
1952 Mexico City, Santiago de Chile
1953 Abadan
1954 Guayaquil
1955 New Delhi
1957 Houston
1958 Kuala Lumpur, Anchorage, Tripoli
1959 Saigon
1960 Amman, Benghazi, Accra, Monrovia, Conakry, Jeddah
1961 Lagos, Caracas
1963 Kuwait, Abidjan
1967 Freetown,
1969 Entebbe, Nairobi, Dar-Es-Salaam, Damascus
1970 Chicago, Barbados, Kinshasha
1971 Hong Kong
1972 Quito, Bangkok
1973 Bahrain
1974 Toronto
1976 Abu Dhabi, Guatemala
1978 Kilimanjaro
1979 Los Angeles, Dubai
1981 Atlanta
1986 Calgary, Vancouver
1983 Harare
1984 Doha, Seoul
1986 Bali/Denpassar
1988 Orlando
1990 Washington/Baltimore, Halifax, Ottawa
1991 Minneapolis
1992 Detroit, Bogota, Bombay, Calcutta
1993 San Fransisco
1994 Osaka
1995 Memphis
2003 Seattle
2007 Hartford

2008 Dallas

Cool listing where did one get this or are you a KL employee and know all these by heart?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Thomasphoto60
Posted 2008-02-18 15:55:30 and read 7498 times.

I have been wondering about this myself, as I have had a long running argument with a friend who say's that KL had been servicing ORD and LAX far longer than IAH.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
Houston in 1957 was a little hick town, big on oil sure but there was no north sea oil until 1973.

Define "Hick Town"? While not a native Houstonian or Texan myself, after doing some research and I have found that Houston in 1957 had a population of some 900+K (could not find the exact figures for 1957, so I went with the 1960 census). At that time Pan Am was running flights to MEX (707s I believe), and Braniff had DC-6s to HAV.

But I digress, even today many consider Houston still to be a "Hick Town".

Thomas

[Edited 2008-02-18 15:57:10]

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Ordfrbdl
Posted 2008-02-18 18:14:44 and read 7382 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
2007 Hartford

Question - they operate the BDL flight with a KL flight number.... but with NW planes, so would this one count in the above list?
Tango-Bravo might be looking for where the blue and white planes fly....

Just a thought....

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2008-02-18 18:39:54 and read 7349 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
kinda shocked that they flew to Houston (HOU) in 1957.....Was it a DC-7? What was the routing, was it via YUL?

Houston in 1957 was a little hick town, big on oil sure but there was no north sea oil until 1973.

As for the question, the routing in 1961 (oldest KLM timetable I have) was AMS-YUL-HOU-MEX, operating 3x weekly each way, with DC-8-32 equipment. Routing may well have been the same in 1957, and would definitely have been opb prop-driven equipment with the DC-7C being the most likely suspect.

As for the date given as the beginning of North Sea oil exploration and drilling, this has nothing to do with the connection between Royal Dutch Shell Oil and the oil business in the Western Hemisphere (centered around Houston in North America) which predates the discovery of North Sea oil by decades. Keep in mind also KLM's close association with Venezuela's national airline, VIASA, in the 1960s-70s which was probably not a coincidence inasmuch as Venezuela has for many years played the leading role in the oil industry of South America.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Se210
Posted 2008-02-18 20:07:16 and read 7286 times.

Here's a postcard of a KLM DC-8 at HOU in the 60's

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: PW100
Posted 2008-02-19 11:03:07 and read 6514 times.



Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 11):
Cool listing where did one get this or are you a KL employee and know all these by heart?

Some of it from my fainting memory,most of it came from a Dutch book from the early seventies by Mr. B. van der Klaauw. He does an excellent job in describing KLM history from teh very first flight to the introduction of the 747.
I also have some newer books on KLM, but unfortunately they do not cover network build up.
My information between 1970 and 2005 is a little faint, aalso because I cannot reach my KLM timetables as they are burried somewhere on the addict.

Quoting Ordfrbdl (Reply 13):
Question - they operate the BDL flight with a KL flight number.... but with NW planes, so would this one count in the above list?

Well, KLM and NW operate all their TA flights in a joint venture. As such, KLM does apply their own flight number and sell tickets using their own flight numebr. So it defimately counts as a KLM destination. However from a point of view as of KLM metal . . .

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 4):
. . . it is both surprising and interesting to me that KLM started ORD as "late in the game" as 1970

KLM, or rather the Dutch government, had been looking for ORD rights for over ten years, but where simply denied. Only in 1970 KLM was finally granted ORD rights. Some sources claim it was an offical present from the USA given to KLM to celebrat etheir 50th birthday . . .

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: IAD380
Posted 2008-02-19 13:18:37 and read 6417 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
Year destination [regular services]

A few cities appear to be missing from your list. When did KL start flights to LIM, SJO, MEL, PEK, and PVG?

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
Routing may well have been the same in 1957, and would definitely have been opb prop-driven equipment with the DC-7C being the most likely suspect.

Timetableimages.com has displayed the complete KL timetable for April 1957, which was six months before Houston replaced Monterrey, Mexico as a stopover on the AMS-MEX route. At the time, KL flew the DC-6 twice a week to MEX. The flight stopped en route to YUL. One flight stopped in Glasgow, while the other stopped in SNN.

In 1957, KL also operated a weekly AMS-GLA-YUL-HAV-CUR flight aboard a DC-6B. I never knew that KL operated regular flights to HAV. I assume that KL discontinued flights to HAV after the Cuban Revolution.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-02-19 13:41:43 and read 6376 times.



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
As for the question, the routing in 1961 (oldest KLM timetable I have) was AMS-YUL-HOU-MEX, operating 3x weekly each way, with DC-8-32 equipment. Routing may well have been the same in 1957, and would definitely have been opb prop-driven equipment with the DC-7C being the most likely suspect.

Could you fly locally between HOU and YUL amd MEX?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-02-19 13:43:00 and read 6376 times.

The Dutch have always been very outward looking. Compare to Belgium which is a very static counrty, Netherlands traditionally is very dynamic

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-02-19 13:47:30 and read 6367 times.



Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 12):
Define "Hick Town"? While not a native Houstonian or Texan myself

It wasnt really on the global map businesswise like other cities were...racial segregation really hurt along with the lack of locally owned large companies held back the south progress until the 1970s....In 1950 both BHM and ATL had the same population..while BHM civic activities included bombing churches and unleashing dogs on blacks, ATL's slogan was "A City Too Busy to Hate" The result is today ATL MSA is like 4x larger than BHM

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2008-02-19 14:31:19 and read 6313 times.

Significantly, the city listing for KL omits POS. POS in Trinidad was inaugurated in 1938 but was suspended in 1940 after the outbreak of World War 2. It returned to the KL routes later on during the conflict and KL's blue planes remained regular visitors to POS until 1993.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-02-19 18:47:27 and read 6210 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
Could you fly locally between HOU and YUL amd MEX?

Just before they added the HOU stop, they did not have local traffic rights YUL-MEX. I'm not sure of the situation after HOU was added.

Many years later when they were operated 747s AMS-IAH-MEX (I think that was the routing before AMS-MEX became a nonstop operation) I believe KL had local rights IAH-MEX but I'm not positive.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: MadViking
Posted 2008-02-19 18:50:53 and read 6210 times.



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
As for the question, the routing in 1961 (oldest KLM timetable I have) was AMS-YUL-HOU-MEX, operating 3x weekly each way, with DC-8-32 equipment. Routing may well have been the same in 1957

Wow, quite interesting that 30 years later the routing was almost the same, minus the YUL stop. Living in Toronto during the 70s and 80s, I was doing a lot of "dot spotting" from our balcony. I remember clearly at around 7pm local, KL687 would come on the high level VHF freq. flying westbound, AMS-->HOU-->MEX, and if timing was right KL688 MEX-->HOU-->AMS would be on the same freq. too heading east. And to top it of, KL612 would be trailing along as well from ORD. Hence three KL jumbos would be cruising over YYZ, one west, two east on the same freq. (at that time 132.17 but now 125.775). Sometimes in the winter during clear sky's, you could see one aircraft flickering his light on and off, or the occasional comment in Dutch to each other.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2008-02-19 19:09:54 and read 6191 times.

Did KL ever send DC-10's to ORD in the '70s or '80s?

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: MadViking
Posted 2008-02-19 19:31:07 and read 6175 times.



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 24):
Did KL ever send DC-10's to ORD in the '70s or '80s?

Couldn't say for sure, but quite a good possibility for an equipment sub. We got our small share of 10s in the 80s here at YYZ. I believe YMX was also a popular 10 route.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2008-02-19 21:08:26 and read 6141 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
Could you fly locally between HOU and YUL amd MEX?

Cabotage has always been prohibited.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2008-02-19 21:30:38 and read 6129 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
Could you fly locally between HOU and YUL amd MEX?

The KLM timetable in effect November 1, 1961 to March 31, 1962 notes "No local traffic Houston--Montreal" (as well as in the reverse direction) in the section showing Transatlantic service between Europe and the U.S.A. and Canada. In the Europe--Mexico section (separate from Transatlantic section albeit same flight numbers, and routing via YUL-HOU) "no local traffic" restrictions are indicated not only YUL-HOU but also HOU-MEX, which presumably apply to YUL-MEX as well. By the time the flights departed HOU for MEX, there must have been lots of room for MEX bound pax to stretch out!



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 17):
In 1957, KL also operated a weekly AMS-GLA-YUL-HAV-CUR flight aboard a DC-6B. I never knew that KL operated regular flights to HAV. I assume that KL discontinued flights to HAV after the Cuban Revolution.

In the same above-mentioned 1961-62 KLM timetable, the only KLM service to HAV was on a routing MIA-HAV-KIN-CUR and reverse, operated 3x weekly each way, with DC-6 equipment. Interestingly, for some years, KLM maintained a stand-alone Caribbean operation that, in 1961, also offered IDL-AUA-CUR 4 days a week and IDL-CUR on the other 3 days of the week, with the same frequencies/routings in reverse; all IDL-Caribbean (Dutch West Indies) flights were operated by DC-7C equipment. From the MIA and IDL flights it was also possible to make connections at CUR with KLM-operated DC-6 flights to/from Maracaibo or Caracas on various days of the week. (IDL is used as the code for New York International, as the airport now known as JFK was identified before Dec. 25, 1963).

By late 1961 - early 1962 the days of the stop in HAV on the routing to/from MIA would have been numbered as the embargo on regular air service betwen the U.S. and Cuba was implemented soon thereafter.

Topic: RE: Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-02-19 21:34:29 and read 6124 times.



Quoting MadViking (Reply 25):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 24):
Did KL ever send DC-10's to ORD in the '70s or '80s?

Couldn't say for sure, but quite a good possibility for an equipment sub. We got our small share of 10s in the 80s here at YYZ. I believe YMX was also a popular 10 route.

KL initial service to YYC and YVR used the DC-10.


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