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Topic: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Scuddy123
Posted 2008-02-27 18:46:48 and read 7963 times.

A friend of mine was on CX 841 today from JFK-HKG (still is at the time of writing this). The flight was on the ground for around 3 hours before it finally took off. Apparently there was some sort of engineering issue that needed to be resolved. Anyway by the time this was done, an announcement was made that the crew would exceed their window of flying time if they were to attempt to fly to HKG and so as a result the flight was going to be re-routed to ICN and a new crew would then fly them to HKG. I got all this on the phone from my friend while they were waiting on the ground t JFK and needless to say she was not pleased with the thought of getting to HKG 6 hours late.

So I'm not sure I understand the situation. Maybe some of the experts could shed some light here. I'd have thought that there would have been 2 flight crews on the flight from JFK to begin with and so what's the issue with flying time? Or did my friend misunderstand the reason for re-routing?

[Edited 2008-02-27 18:48:29]

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2008-02-27 18:59:00 and read 7947 times.



Quoting Scuddy123 (Thread starter):
I'd have thought that there would have been 2 flight crews on the flight from JFK to begin with and so what's the issue with flying time? Or did my friend misunderstand the reason for re-routing?

Yes, there was most likely 4 pilots on the flight. However, that does not mean an unlimited duty day. Not knowing what the specific FTDL (Flight Time Duty Limits) for Hong Kong is, it's pretty hard to give a specific answer. But, I am willing to bet their duty limits are somewhere around 16 hours and there is an extension available to the Captain for unforeseen delays so it could be upwards of 18 hours. Duty starts 1 hour prior to scheduled departure, and if the flight has already been delayed by 3 hours, that means the flight crew has already burned 4 hours of duty. Assume a flight time from JFK-HKG of 14 hours and then add 30 minutes (standard) to accomplish the parking checks and clear customs you already are at 17+30 duty day.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: AS739X
Posted 2008-02-27 19:34:37 and read 7868 times.

Zeke, where are you? He would have the answer.

ASSFO

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: CX flyboy
Posted 2008-02-27 19:41:36 and read 7847 times.

With 4 crew we can do 18 hours duty. At outports we start this duty time one hour before departure. If your friend's flight was delayed for 3 hours before take off, the crew would already have been working for 4 hours, leaving only 14 hours remaining on their duty times.....not enough to complete the flight all the way to Hong Kong, taxy to the bay ans shut down engines (At which point duty time ends). The crew have the option of extending their duty limit for another 2 hours. This is at the discretion of the captain only. Assuming they did this, and have another 16 hours remaining on their duty times by the time they took off, at this time of year flight times are around 15:45ish, which brings them uncomfortably close to their limits. Unless the crew wanted to push the envelope and the legal limitations, then the best thing is to stop somewhere for a change of crew.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2008-02-27 19:46:46 and read 7820 times.

due to them getting this close, they are saying that they will attempt to fly all the way to HKG.

So, I'm guessing they'll try to make up some lost time, but they may need to land in ICN

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2008-02-27 19:48:37 and read 7810 times.

Bad week for CX. I was delayed for 4 hours in Singapore when our 747 went tech, and they flew a 773 down to Singapore down to pick us up. My only complaint was that they knew they were flying in a new plane, they should have told us instead of telling us to check-in every hour. I was getting better updates via SMS on my mobile than I was from the ground staff. New plane, meant new crew, etc... Even with the plane there for a while (so I had to think it came from BKK, KUL, or somewhere close), we still waited for another 90 minutes until boarding.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: MadViking
Posted 2008-02-27 19:49:09 and read 7810 times.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Assume a flight time from JFK-HKG of 14 hours and then add 30 minutes (standard) to accomplish the parking checks and clear customs you already are at 17+30 duty day.

PhilSquares, say the above happens, and there are four pilots, do each log 17.5 hours in their flight log? Or even if its just two pilots flying a 737 for a total of four hours. Each logs 4.0?

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2008-02-27 19:57:12 and read 7781 times.



Quoting MadViking (Reply 6):
PhilSquares, say the above happens, and there are four pilots, do each log 17.5 hours in their flight log? Or even if its just two pilots flying a 737 for a total of four hours. Each logs 4.0?

Duty limits and flight time are two different things. Flight time would start from pushback to engine shutdown, while duty time would be from report to release.

In the CX case, the pilots, all of them would log the fight time just like the two pilots in the 737.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Zeke
Posted 2008-02-27 21:13:52 and read 7676 times.



Quoting Scuddy123 (Thread starter):
I'd have thought that there would have been 2 flight crews on the flight from JFK to begin with and so what's the issue with flying time? Or did my friend misunderstand the reason for re-routing?

JFK-HKG is a little over 15:30 at the moment, we need to prepare the aircraft before hand, and shut it down after, it is always tight on maximum allowable limits, and JFK gets some pretty bad taxi delays.
JFK-ICN is planned at 14:00, plus the 3 hr delay, plus the sign on and shutdown time, means they will still exceed 18 hrs, they have extended their duty time to help everyone out.

4 pilots minimum JFK-HKG.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Swiftski
Posted 2008-02-28 02:48:41 and read 7468 times.



Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 5):
Bad week for CX. I was delayed for 4 hours in Singapore when our 747 went tech

Not to be a pain but with just under 150 (inc Cargo) planes and 111 (pax) destintations (lots as multiple/day) to have 2 issues in a week I wouldn't call a "bad week"

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2008-02-28 05:01:15 and read 7331 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
JFK-ICN is planned at 14:00, plus the 3 hr delay, plus the sign on and shutdown time, means they will still exceed 18 hrs, they have extended their duty time to help everyone out.

I have never heard of an aircraft having more than 4 pilots but if this sector is that long, and they have the unforseen taxi delays at JFK and so forth, do they sometimes have a fifth or even sixth pilot on board? I wonder if its a similar situation with SQ or TG on its ULH flights.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: PhilSquares
Posted 2008-02-28 05:27:37 and read 7284 times.



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 10):
I wonder if its a similar situation with SQ or TG on its ULH flights.

For SQ, it's only 4.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Zeke
Posted 2008-02-28 06:32:14 and read 7198 times.



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 10):
I have never heard of an aircraft having more than 4 pilots but if this sector is that long, and they have the unforseen taxi delays at JFK and so forth, do they sometimes have a fifth or even sixth pilot on board?

Putting more on the flight does not help, they all start work at the same time.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Scuddy123
Posted 2008-02-28 17:47:33 and read 4162 times.

So CX 841 finally landed in HKG close to 6 hours late due to the delay taking off and the stop over in ICN.

It is interesting to note that since these ULH flights push the limits of duty time, with the notorious ground delays at JFK getting re-routed is a very realistic possibility. Also sounds like nothing can be done about it unless rules are changed.

I don't know about the rest of you folks but if I'm considering a trip to Asia, the fact that there's a good chance I'll get re-routed and arrive at my destination 5-6 hours late might be reason enough to book a 1 stop flight. Seems like at least that way I can estimate my arrival time better.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Scuddy123
Posted 2008-02-28 17:48:20 and read 4158 times.

So CX 841 finally landed in HKG close to 6 hours late due to the delay taking off and the stop over in ICN.

It is interesting to note that since these ULH flights push the limits of duty time, with the notorious ground delays at JFK getting re-routed is a very realistic possibility. Also sounds like nothing can be done about it unless rules are changed.

I don't know about the rest of you folks but if I'm considering a trip to Asia, the fact that there's a good chance I'll get re-routed and arrive at my destination 5-6 hours late might be reason enough to book a 1 stop flight. Seems like at least that way I can estimate my arrival time better.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Halls120
Posted 2008-02-28 17:54:59 and read 4124 times.



Quoting Scuddy123 (Reply 13):
It is interesting to note that since these ULH flights push the limits of duty time, with the notorious ground delays at JFK getting re-routed is a very realistic possibility. Also sounds like nothing can be done about it unless rules are changed.

Another good reason to avoid JFK, IMHO.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2008-02-29 06:56:52 and read 3715 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Putting more on the flight does not help, they all start work at the same time

Wow, if so, then in my mind, this is another factor that leads to ULH hard to make a profit on. If the plane re-routes through ICN, then they have to pay for the gate and the landing fees at ICN. Then, the next batch of crew would make it but I think some of the stressed out pax would ask for some sort of compensation.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Zeke
Posted 2008-02-29 07:13:14 and read 3674 times.

I would say most flights would go without a delay, that was my experience on the 346, maybe the 77W presents its own problems. it is still new so we should not be too quick to judge.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Sh0rtybr0wn
Posted 2008-02-29 07:13:32 and read 3674 times.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Another good reason to avoid JFK, IMHO.

Its fine for CX841. If you arrive about 6 AM, the international terminal that CX uses, Terminal 7, is not too busy. Its much better than first taking a domestic flight, and then a long haul to HKG. CX 840 arrives after 9 PM , so theres not much wait or hassle on the way back to JFK either.

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: LXA340
Posted 2008-02-29 14:52:48 and read 3563 times.

How does SQ handle this the flight is around 2 -3 hours longer and I never heard of frequent unscheduled stops due to the crew runing out of duty time. Did SQ enforce a special law on those ULH flgihts to have the crew more flexible by giving them more rest time on board etc to compensate for delays?

Topic: RE: CX 841 Re-routed Today
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2008-02-29 17:55:47 and read 3493 times.



Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19):
I never heard of frequent unscheduled stops due to the crew runing out of duty time

I think airlines have their own rules regarding cockpit crews?

For JL, I heard that the maximum that it can go on two cockpit crews is 8 hours or so. So to YVR, there are two pilots on board.

But I read somewhere that NH is like 10? That is why they can go to SFO on about two pilots. I think JL has 3 on board for the same flight. The number of 4 pilots also change. I think JL requires them on sectors longer than 12 hours so for instance, NRT-JFK. But NH at the same time has different rules and they are allowed to go with 3 on board. I read that somewhere. I'll try and dig that up if that helps you at all.


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