Welcome to thread #27. In Thread #26 New Zealand Aviation Thread #26 (by 777ER Mar 13 2008 in Civil Aviation), which only took 8 days to reach 210 posts!, we learnt, discussed and suffered:

- The debate over IVC. Do I need to say anything more on this?
- Two NZ B744s are out of service with MX probs, which are causing probs for NZ long haul ops
- NZs B773s will have 351 seats, in a 39J/46Y+/269Y config, but Y+ could be increased shortly
- NZ will add more WLG-BNE/MEL using A320s
- NZs PVG crew being payed Chinese rates and not NZ rates as they are employed by a Chinese company
- NZ has just recruited 60 Cantonese, Mandarin, and Japanese crew as permanent AKL-based longhaul crew
- NZ raises their fares on Domestic, Tasman and Pacific Islands due to fuel costs
- WLGs new state of the art international terminal is going ahead.
- ZK-NGP is now at the CHC hangers undergoing NZ upgrades before EIS
- Air Nelson pilots will strike for half a day on Tuesday
- AKLs new $31M runway

If you have any trip reports about flights you've just taken, then please post the links here, or any news you feel is worth its own thread, then please start a new thread for that news item, and post a link here also to that thread

Let thread #27 begin

Well 777ER every time I see a new NZ Av thread from you it looks more and more professional in the thread starter... well done and thanks for the effort!

From the previous thread regarding AKL new rwy... I am also of the opinion that the planned eventual length for this rwy is too small! I guess perhaps in future they could extend it to the west out into the harbour (as with the current rwy). This option would keep the rwy 500m further away from populated areas.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):

Thanks.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1): From the previous thread regarding AKL new rwy... I am also of the opinion that the planned eventual length for this rwy is too small! I guess perhaps in future they could extend it to the west out into the harbour (as with the current rwy). This option would keep the rwy 500m further away from populated areas.

I was under the impression that the new runway was for domestic takeoff and landings only? Therefore a final length of 2150m is ample for aircraft up to A320/B73H size.

NZ1

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 3): I was under the impression that the new runway was for domestic takeoff and landings only? Therefore a final length of 2150m is ample for aircraft up to A320/B73H size

I got that impression too. Anything bigger would be on the main runway as far as I understood. A320, 737 and smaller would significantly reduce capacity on the main so there is no need for the new one to be anymore than 2150m I would think.

After all, NZ is at the bottom of the world, and there will only be a relatively small number of heavies that we will see in a given day I would think...

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 3): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1): From the previous thread regarding AKL new rwy... I am also of the opinion that the planned eventual length for this rwy is too small! I guess perhaps in future they could extend it to the west out into the harbour (as with the current rwy). This option would keep the rwy 500m further away from populated areas. I was under the impression that the new runway was for domestic takeoff and landings only? Therefore a final length of 2150m is ample for aircraft up to A320/B73H size.

I thought I read that it was only for Turbo-Prop aircraft, with them having direct access to it from the new domestic terminal yet to be built

Yeah thanks 777ER for the great upkeep of these threads!

Quoting 777ER (Reply 5): I thought I read that it was only for Turbo-Prop aircraft, with them having direct access to it from the new domestic terminal yet to be built

For now as it will initially be 1200m by the World Cup in 2011.. Chipseal and suitable for B1900Ds (info from the Airport) And eventually the new domestic terminal will be built to the north of the current terminals. The cargo facilities are going to be on the north of the northern runway. So one day when all of this is built, all the domestic flights will be in the top half of the airport.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1): I guess perhaps in future they could extend it to the west out into the harbour (as with the current rwy)

From what I remember, it was also restricted due to the Ihumato prehistoric forest lying to the west of where the new runway will be.... But it'd be great if they were able to and carried out a full extension of the runway, after getting through all the bureaucracy/red tape that surrounded this issue from the beginning. Lengthening the runway to around 3km will in turn increase the versatility of the airport. Having another long runway in AKL is important as the current taxiway that is used when the main runway is close is weight restricted..

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 6): Quoting 777ER (Reply 5): I thought I read that it was only for Turbo-Prop aircraft, with them having direct access to it from the new domestic terminal yet to be built For now as it will initially be 1200m by the World Cup in 2011

Since its due to be built by the WRC in 2011, then obviously there will be a big influx in aircraft movements from overseas. Wonder if extra aircraft will be bought in for domestic as well?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the airlines do. I wonder if they order say the E-Jets to replace the ATR72s they keep the ATR72s around and have them to coexist alongside the E-Jets?

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 8): I wonder if they order say the E-Jets to replace the ATR72s they keep the ATR72s around and have them to coexist alongside the E-Jets?

Short answer is no.

NZ1

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter): Two NZ B744s are out of service with MX probs, which are causing probs for NZ long haul ops

For a few days last week we had 3 744s a 763 and a 733 out of action.....lol just bad timing but it took OTP down to a shade over 20%..

Quoting AerorobNZ (Reply 10): For a few days last week we had 3 744s a 763 and a 733 out of action.....lol just bad timing but it took OTP down to a shade over 20%..

How could 5 aircraft drop OTP to 20% when the total fleet is about 95 aircraft .. It would effect the Long haul stats a bit as its quite a large chunk of their fleet out. I could believe the long haul OTP stats being close to 20% , but when you add in all the aircraft the OTP must be higher for the whole group ..

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 11): How could 5 aircraft drop OTP to 20% when the total fleet is about 95 aircraft .. It would effect the Long haul stats a bit as its quite a large chunk of their fleet out. I could believe the long haul OTP stats being close to 20% , but when you add in all the aircraft the OTP must be higher for the whole group ..

Yeah, for Intl OTP. That's the OTP I deal with at the intl terminal at AKL.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 3): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1): From the previous thread regarding AKL new rwy... I am also of the opinion that the planned eventual length for this rwy is too small! I guess perhaps in future they could extend it to the west out into the harbour (as with the current rwy). This option would keep the rwy 500m further away from populated areas. I was under the impression that the new runway was for domestic takeoff and landings only? Therefore a final length of 2150m is ample for aircraft up to A320/B73H size. NZ1

Yes it is for domestic ops and smaller intl ops... but with air traffic only going to increase I think its prudent that AKL has 2 full size rwys by 2020... whilst it is possible to use the current 05L/23R (taxiway) as a rwy in the event of an emergency, it does put a hamper on operations.
I will concede that it will take quite a large increase in traffic for AKL to really need two full parallel rwy ops, but without it AKL will start to see the odd delay due to congestion from time to time... There are many airports around the world that handle less ops than AKL and they have 2 or even 3 rwys. Hell even CHC has 2 rwys (3 if you count the grass for GA). I guess it all depends on what future aviation has in store... if alternatives to oil happen or HST happens then aviation could boom or in the case of HST not only boom, but require long rwys and congestion free approaches.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 13): Hell even CHC has 2 rwys

The only reason that CHC has two sealed runways is the Canterbury nor'wester, which is not a pleasant crosswind at all in a smaller aircraft. Runways aren't a status symbol - I don't see the point in building them (and making airline passengers pay for them) unless there is a demonstrable need.

Just seen on One News that from next month, all International airport staff will be required to under-go secuirty screening like all pax currently do, which will bring us in-line with International standards

Source: One News

Quoting 777ER (Reply 15): Just seen on One News that from next month, all International airport staff will be required to under-go secuirty screening like all pax currently do, which will bring us in-line with International standards

We have been subject to those rules for at least 6 months, there's nothing new in that.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 4): NZ is at the bottom of the world

strange seeing such a Euro-centric (or perhaps British colonial?) viewpoint still persisting in modern New Zealand! Such an viewpoint of course has never had any scientific basis, nor geometric. Since the Renaissance there has been no scientific support for a "centre" of place, and general agreement even outside science that every position has its own proper perspective; and never has a sphere (even a world-sphere) had a "bottom"...(smile). Auckland is a long way from London, but no further than London is from Auckland. One hears similar things here in Australia; usually to do with Perth. But of course it is the rest of the world that is distant...

If there is nevertheless a trading "head" to the world-globe trading "bottom", then it is moving from Europe to China and India - so if New Zealand feels like a "bottom", things are changing...soon it will be further up...(smile)

Quoting AerorobNZ (Reply 16): Quoting 777ER (Reply 15): Just seen on One News that from next month, all International airport staff will be required to under-go secuirty screening like all pax currently do, which will bring us in-line with International standards We have been subject to those rules for at least 6 months, there's nothing new in that.

Ditto. All airport workers are subject to the same security as any normal passenger. We are even being checked whilst airside now also, i.e. AvSec have the power to search vehicles, toolboxes and bags etc

NZ1

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 14): The only reason that CHC has two sealed runways is the Canterbury nor'wester, which is not a pleasant crosswind at all in a smaller aircraft. Runways aren't a status symbol - I don't see the point in building them (and making airline passengers pay for them) unless there is a demonstrable need.

CHC is now talking about extending that runway and then operating that runway all the time in conjunction with the main runway .. Not just on the norwesters ..

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 19): CHC is now talking about extending that runway and then operating that runway all the time in conjunction with the main runway .. Not just on the norwesters

If there's a need for a second runway, then by all means. But there's no point over-investing in the airport and raising the costs for pax unless it is needed.

Air NZ plans credit cards for Chinese crew


Air New Zealand plans to issue its Chinese staff with credit cards after it was revealed last week that Shanghai based cabin crew members received a quarter of their New Zealand colleagues' pay.


Last year, 59 of the 64 Chinese crew wrote a letter to Air New Zealand complaining of inequitable work conditions and having their meal allowance restricted to the hotel they stayed in and one Chinese restaurant, the New Zealand Herald reported today.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4450242a11.html

Does anyone know what the cancellations are out of PMR tomorrow? Or phrased another way - it is the Air Nelson pilot strikes?

At present NZ5070 and NZ5712 are listed as cancelled and there is a 9am arrival of NZ1301 from AKL presumably to deal with this. There is also an NZ5921 to Nelson first thing. I'm not up to speed on the status of the Air Nelson pilot strikes, but it seemed kind of odd that the PMR/AKL flights, operated by Mount Cook on two separate aircraft would both be canned.

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter): If you have any trip reports about flights you've just taken,

It isn't really worth a separate thread except to say I had fun doing the two-stop from PMR to DUD last Tuesday, and I had forgotten just how quiet the 733s are compared to the 1900s and the ATRs  

And I had a nice trip back tonight on NZ5350, although it was the first time (in the three times I've flown NZ5350 the DUD-CHC-PMR service) that we were kicked off at CHC - for 'operational reasons'.

ax

Quoting Axio (Reply 22): operated by Mount Cook on two separate aircraft would both be canned.

MAYBE the ATR is being utilised elsewhere to cope with the backlog at another base other that PMR??? Just a speculation

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 23): Just a speculation

Speculation is great  

And in regards to the schedule changes: I'm just curious really. I think the thing I enjoy most about aviation is the logistics and operational aspects - the way such a diverse and distributed system is managed, and manages to come together. And in particular what happens in the 'special cases' - such as planning for bad weather and in this case, industrial action. Hence the question  

ax

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21): Air NZ plans credit cards for Chinese crew

Just for the record - there was quite a lot of debate about this in the previous thread - here's a longer article in the Herald.

It wasn't just one ex-employee:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=277&objectid=10499802

"Last year, 59 of the 64 Chinese crew wrote a letter to Air New Zealand complaining of inequitable work conditions and having their meal allowance restricted to the hotel they stayed in and one Chinese restaurant."

"The Herald also has a copy of another undated letter from the Shanghai crew to an Air NZ manager, appealing for better conditions, including human rights and freedom."

It seems as if something is being done:

"Air New Zealand's Shanghai manager has told his Chinese crew that their pay review will be given "top priority"

Hopefully, a satisfactory end result for all.

mariner

Quoting Mariner (Reply 25): Quoting 777ER (Reply 21): Air NZ plans credit cards for Chinese crew Just for the record - there was quite a lot of debate about this in the previous thread

As I put in the summary of thread #26

Quoting 777ER (Reply 26): As I put in the summary of thread #26

Yes, you did. I saw that.

mariner

Say goodbye to queues at Customs


Kiwis flying across the Tasman could soon be getting through airports more quickly with the help of automatic passport-reading machines.


New Zealand and Australian travellers with electronic passports will be able to put themselves through passport control without having to queue.

Passengers put their passports into a machine similar to a ticket kiosk that downloads details, including an electronic image of the passport holder's face.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4450460a10.html

Anyone fancy a holiday in Tonga? Mind you, who would want to with this summer like weather thats still happening, and expected to remain till May! NZ has got Tonga this afternoon on Grab a Seat

Air New Zealand is to increase by the end of the year the number of seats available for flights from Auckland to Melbourne and Sydney.

The airline said today that part of the additional capacity to Melbourne would come from a change of aircraft on some services.

From October 26, a 235-passenger Boeing 767-300 aircraft would be used instead of a 152-passenger Airbus A320 on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday afternoons.

From December 16 a third daily service, using a Boeing 767-300, would operate from Auckland on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.

Total capacity between Auckland and Melbourne would increase by 6 per cent, Air NZ said.

Services from Auckland to Sydney would increase from December 15 with an additional A320 return service operating on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Source: NZ Herald

And the ongoing Chinese crew saga:

Yesterday:

Air New Zealand's Shanghai manager has told his Chinese crew that their pay review will be given "top priority" and they will be given credit cards from this week to solve issues with their meal allowances.

The assurance - in an internal staff memo obtained by the Herald - comes after the paper reported that crew based in Shanghai received a quarter of their New Zealand colleagues' pay and a third of their away-from-home allowances.

More here.

Today:

Some Air NZ Chinese stewardesses plan to reject the airline's offer of credit cards for meals when they are in Auckland, because they say there are too many restrictions.

The Herald reported yesterday that an internal Air NZ memo promised Chinese crew their pay review would be given top priority and they would be issued with credit cards instead of cash for meals. Other Air NZ crew received their away allowances in cash.

More here.

What ever you think this surely isn't a good look for NZ.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 19): CHC is now talking about extending that runway and then operating that runway all the time in conjunction with the main runway .. Not just on the norwesters ..

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 19): If there's a need for a second runway, then by all means. But there's no point over-investing in the airport and raising the costs for pax unless it is needed.

CHC airport is really up against it at the moment. There was a fantastic piece in the Press a week or so back about how the airport is treating those who live close by. There is also some concern about how badly the airport is being run. Click here. And here. And here.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 30): From October 26, a 235-passenger Boeing 767-300 aircraft would be used instead of a 152-passenger Airbus A320 on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday afternoons. From December 16 a third daily service, using a Boeing 767-300, would operate from Auckland on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.

Is this the new "higher-yielding" use for the 767-300ER that the airline talked about when it took it off LAX-NAN and LAX-PPT?

Trans-Atlantic maybe. But AKL-MEL? Has the yield-management calculator been stolen from the office again?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 28): Say goodbye to queues at Customs

Once again sloppy journalism prevails - there's no suggestion that Customs will be faster, just immigration. I heard the same error on National Radio this morning, too.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 32): Is this the new "higher-yielding" use for the 767-300ER that the airline talked about when it took it off LAX-NAN and LAX-PPT? Trans-Atlantic maybe. But AKL-MEL?

I believe it is - along with AKL-KIX by 763 3x weekly, though that hasn't yet been announced. But don't despair, K'man - freeing up 772 capacity from AKL-KIX might allow something more creative (though I've heard no whispers).

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 30): What ever you think this surely isn't a good look for NZ.

True, and yet what other companies do you know of that the NZHerald devotes massive amounts of time and space chastising regarding meal allowances? Once again for whatever reason the NZHerald makes most (IMO more than 75%) of its articles about NZ in a negative light.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 33): Once again sloppy journalism prevails - there's no suggestion that Customs will be faster, just immigration. I heard the same error on National Radio this morning, too.

And as usual it is something other countires have had for sometime!

Quoting Koruman (Reply 32): Is this the new "higher-yielding" use for the 767-300ER that the airline talked about when it took it off LAX-NAN and LAX-PPT? Trans-Atlantic maybe. But AKL-MEL? Has the yield-management calculator been stolen from the office again?

I dunno, as a frequent AKL-MEL traveler I'm pleased by the news. I often fail to get seats on NZ at all, and when I can they're often Y or B fares.... as a result I end up flying QF pretty regularly.

For instance I'm flying back to MEL on Friday on a B fare at a cost of AUD$816. My last Tasman fare (MEL-WLG-HLZ/AKL-WLG-MEL) was almost AUD$1900. Sounds reasonably high yielding to me...

Has the possibility of a CHC-PER routing ever been explored by NZ?

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 31): CHC airport is really up against it at the moment. There was a fantastic piece in the Press a week or so back about how the airport is treating those who live close by. There is also some concern about how badly the airport is being run. Click here. And here. And here.

Actually i dont believe CHC airport is badly run at all if not the total opposite .. Of the 3 main airports CHC is the only one that is not in threat of being regulated for its pricing .. Also future proofing a airport by insuring it can expand for future growth is good business hardly being run badly .. Its also great for the population of Christchurch and the South Island that its main airport will be able to always cope with future growth .. As for the links of course any airport will oppose a new lake near its operations that will increase the chances of bird strikes .. Making hoses close by have double glazing makes sense just and keeping residential areas away from airports does too . As close neighbours will only make noise complaints even thou the airport was there before them .. Im not saying ever decision is great but on the whole CHC is very well run ..

Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 37): Has the possibility of a CHC-PER routing ever been explored by NZ?

I wish... I think CHC-ADL would be a good route too.

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 39): I wish... I think CHC-ADL would be a good route too.

The old CHC-HBA as well as that was always popular i think could be managed as well as CHC-NLK

well, perhaps PER-AKL will get the 777 freed up from KIX. What are the loads like?

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 30): Some Air NZ Chinese stewardesses plan to reject the airline's offer of credit cards for meals when they are in Auckland, because they say there are too many restrictions. The Herald reported yesterday that an internal Air NZ memo promised Chinese crew their pay review would be given top priority and they would be issued with credit cards instead of cash for meals. Other Air NZ crew received their away allowances in cash. More here. What ever you think this surely isn't a good look for NZ.

I don't think it does. It just shows that the PVG crews are being pushy. NZ are giving them a better option, with a credit card, but it sounds like that they are 100% happy with the current meal arragements, if they weren't, then they would happily accept NZs deal

Quoting ANstar (Reply 41): well, perhaps PER-AKL will get the 777 freed up from KIX. What are the loads like?

PER-AKL-PER seems to have pretty good loads in J class and Y class, everytime ive flown its been chockas or close to it same with J class.

But i always say it NZ does not market the flight enough, they could put a 744/777 on it if they marketed the flight!!

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42): I don't think it does. It just shows that the PVG crews are being pushy. NZ are giving them a better option, with a credit card, but it sounds like that they are 100% happy with the current meal arragements, if they weren't, then they would happily accept NZs deal

Offering a lousy deal to replace a really lousy deal means they should "happily accept" it? I have to agree with them - they should have a $150 (or whatever) daily allowance on the credit card, which is usable for anything.

If I get a per-diem from my employer while traveling, I can use it for whatever I want. They don't care if I buy one apple or an orchard. The same should apply to the crew in this case.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 38): Making hoses close by have double glazing

All new buildings require double glazing from now on to gain consent.. And anyway I think it'd be a good investment for insulation being down there too..

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 43):

Do you think they'll send it daily before starting up with a 777?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42): It just shows that the PVG crews are being pushy.

Why should they not get their daily allowance as cash in hand, like everyone else?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=277&objectid=10499802

"Other Air NZ crew received $175 cash in the hand for every day they were away from home."

mariner

Quoting Mariner (Reply 46): y should they not get their daily allowance as cash in hand, like everyone else?

is it easy for non-residents to open a bank account in New Zealand ? ( I know it is easy enough to retain one when no longer living there as I still have an account there - but do the banks make it easy or difficult - and does the PRC government have any restrictions on their nationals having accounts in other countries ?) If not then how would NZ pay them the money - I don't believe for a second that 'cash in hand' means the folding stuff these days - I am sure that when they say the NZ staff get it cash in hand they mean direct credited to their New Zealand bank accounts - can any NZ staff confirm this ?

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 47): is it easy for non-residents to open a bank account in New Zealand ?

No. At least, not at my bank. When I moved back here and wanted to open a bank account, it took several days and "proof of who I am" from resident New Zealanders known to the bank..

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 47): If not then how would NZ pay them the money - I don't believe for a second that 'cash in hand' means the folding stuff these days -

Neither do I. "Cash in hand" is an accounting term, although some firms still do it is as cash.

More importantly, Air New Zealand is now saying that their credit card purchases are open to review, and may be disallowed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10499895

"We cannot have two main courses for our dinner, we can have only six apples for a three-day trip and we cannot buy any milk powder or honey - otherwise, the airline will deduct the money from our pay."

Why? It is their money.

mariner

just noticed on Ozjet's new website www.ozjet.com.au that they include NZ departure tax in their ONE WAY AUD$199 specials PMR/BNE & PMR/SYD.

Does anyone know what their forward bookings are like, especially since they opened their bookings so late.

I think 1st flight into PMR is next week.

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 44): Quoting 777ER (Reply 42): I don't think it does. It just shows that the PVG crews are being pushy. NZ are giving them a better option, with a credit card, but it sounds like that they are 100% happy with the current meal arragements, if they weren't, then they would happily accept NZs deal Offering a lousy deal to replace a really lousy deal means they should "happily accept" it? I have to agree with them - they should have a $150 (or whatever) daily allowance on the credit card, which is usable for anything.

But do we know what the deal is though? The answer is no we don't!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 45): And anyway I think it'd be a good investment for insulation being down there too..

More like, would be better in IVC, especially with their weather over the last few days!

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 47): is it easy for non-residents to open a bank account in New Zealand ?

With my bank, its easy. Trademe.co.nz requires Australian residents to hold a new zealand bank account for their trades.

I've just heard that apparantly Ozjet now has a new owner, but won't be announced for a few more days. Interesting thing is, is that the DJ is holding a news conference shortly about V-Australia with Sir Richard being present, so maybe the perfect time for the Ozjet announcement? Wonder if PacBlue will announce their further expansion

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 30): What ever you think this surely isn't a good look for NZ.

If I was Rob Fyfe, I would shut down the Shanghai base and staff the flights from Auckland, and let the Chinese workers who obviously are not happy seek excellence elsewhere and put an end to this media beat up.

Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 37): Has the possibility of a CHC-PER routing ever been explored by NZ?

I am sure it has existed in the past, and from memory used to flown with a 747. This was possibly in the late 80's or early 90's

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 47): is it easy for non-residents to open a bank account in New Zealand ?

Very easy, at my bank it can be done via email or online, you just need to front with ID before you can withdraw funds.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 49): just noticed on Ozjet's new website www.ozjet.com.au that they include NZ departure tax in their ONE WAY AUD$199 specials PMR/BNE & PMR/SYD. Does anyone know what their forward bookings are like, especially since they opened their bookings so late. I think 1st flight into PMR is next week.

It was reported in one of the industry newsletters recently that OzJet's forward bookings for its new SYD-PMR service were poor. As a result of this, services are now due to commence later than planned (May IIRC).

It was also reported that forward bookings on BNE-PMR were "good/solid".

This replicates what Freedom Air found with BNE/SYD-PMR. BNE-PMR had a greater frequency and performed well, whereas SYD struggled and had fewer frequencies...

Be interesting to see if OzJet still plan to operate MEL-PMR... (can see it failing).

Cheers

Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 52): If I was Rob Fyfe, I would shut down the Shanghai base and staff the flights from Auckland, and let the Chinese workers who obviously are not happy seek excellence elsewhere and put an end to this media beat up.

Then the company would have to reforecast a lower profit margin due to "higher wages" and the shareholders may not necessarily be happy from the increase of wages..

Quoting 777ER (Reply 50): More like, would be better in IVC, especially with their weather over the last few days!

Yeah, well we'll get there when IVC gets jets..   Mid winter can still bring bad weather down there..

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 45): Do you think they'll send it daily before starting up with a 777?

With the extra 767 being free they might be now able to go Daily, but then they are starting the refurb of the 767's so doubt we will see daily for a while.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 51): I've just heard that apparantly Ozjet now has a new owner, but won't be announced for a few more days. Interesting thing is, is that the DJ is holding a news conference shortly about V-Australia with Sir Richard being present, so maybe the perfect time for the Ozjet announcement? Wonder if PacBlue will announce their further expansion

Quoting QF175 (Reply 53): Be interesting to see if OzJet still plan to operate MEL-PMR... (can see it failing).

might depend on who the new owner is & what exactly they want to do with Ozjet or more precisely Ozjet's AOC ?

Quoting QF175 (Reply 53): Be interesting to see if OzJet still plan to operate MEL-PMR... (can see it failing).

It isn't listed in the scheduled through to October, and my understanding is they are planning to assess it for the summer months. Their billboard outside PMR does advertise service to MEL, so the intention is definitely there. And I was a little surprised PMR-MEL folded in the first place, although that may just be a personal perception as I suspect my uncle was the most frequent flier on that route 

The first PMR/SYD flights have been postponed until May 26, when it immediately goes twice-weekly.
There are a couple of factors at play there: firstly the market. PMR-SYD is more business oriented (as much as it can be  ) than PMR-BNE, and thus suffers from less advance bookings. Following from that, initial service was to be once weekly, which is not so useful for business, especially compared to the Monday/Wednesday pair they will be operating from late May. The second factor was the very short lead in time.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 51): I've just heard that apparantly Ozjet now has a new owner, but won't be announced for a few more days. Interesting thing is, is that the DJ is holding a news conference shortly about V-Australia with Sir Richard being present, so maybe the perfect time for the Ozjet announcement? Wonder if PacBlue will announce their further expansion

It would be fantastic if Ozjet's scheduled services were integrated in Virgin Blue. Having secure onward connections would be a great selling point, and allow access to markets that AirNZ either don't serve or don't serve from outside of Auckland (specifically ADL). I have to admit I don't at all understand the whole PacBlue vs VirginBlue thing, but as long as they and Ozjet were treated as one big airline alliance from a passenger perspective then it doesn't really matter who is actually providing the metal. Add to that the tantalizing possibility of linking into the world's fourth global alliance - the Virgin network - with its connections through Australia to Europe and (soon to be) America, and I think such a combined airline would start to drag away AirNZ frequent fliers from across the country.

ax

Air Nelson pilots' strike grounds 34 flights


Thirty-four Air Nelson flights were cancelled this morning when pilots from the Air New Zealand-owned company went on strike for half a day.


The New Zealand Airline Pilots Association (NZALPA), which represents more than 100 pilots at Air Nelson, has been negotiating a new collective employment contract with the airline since July last year, but talks have reached an impasse.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4451316a11.html

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 54): Then the company would have to reforecast a lower profit margin due to "higher wages" and the shareholders may not necessarily be happy from the increase of wages..

As stated in the previous thread, this (small) shareholder would not object.

As also stated several times in the previous thread, I dislike the disparity. I would have hoped that the majority shareholder would feel the same way, but - apparently - that is not the case.

mariner

Quoting Axio (Reply 57): The first PMR/SYD flights have been postponed until May 26, when it immediately goes twice-weekly. There are a couple of factors at play there: firstly the market. PMR-SYD is more business oriented (as much as it can be ) than PMR-BNE, and thus suffers from less advance bookings. Following from that, initial service was to be once weekly, which is not so useful for business, especially compared to the Monday/Wednesday pair they will be operating from late May. The second factor was the very short lead in time.

could PMR/SYD delay also have anything to do with the aircraft.

Has anyone seen an Ozjet 733 anywhere ?

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 56): might depend on who the new owner is & what exactly they want to do with Ozjet or more precisely Ozjet's AOC ?

Use Ozjets AOC as DJs LCC

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 60):

Maybe not being able to get their hands on them ASAP has something to do with the delays

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 47): I don't believe for a second that 'cash in hand' means the folding stuff these days - I am sure that when they say the NZ staff get it cash in hand they mean direct credited to their New Zealand bank accounts - can any NZ staff confirm this ?

It is actually cash in hand... for Long Haul crews... ie when AKL base go to LAX they get $$ in their hand at the hotel. Same with QF and many other airlines... the crew then need to change it back to NZ$ or whatever if they don't spend it all.
I still think that the PVG base crew are getting a very good deal compared to anything else they would get working in China.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 60): could PMR/SYD delay also have anything to do with the aircraft.

Possibly - but nothing of that nature has been reported.

ax

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 62): It is actually cash in hand... for Long Haul crews

But not, Air NZ says, for Shanghai:

"Air NZ's public affairs general manager Mike Tod said paying expenses in cash to crew was a "historical practice" which the airline decided not to perpetuate when setting up the Shanghai base."

Which is the puzzle. It is either a per diem, a flat rate paid, no matter what. It which case, nothing needs to be approved or disallowed.

Or it is expenses claimed, based on receipts, in which case, the manager has the discretion to approve or disallow certain items.

It is tough to work out how it can be both.

mariner

Regarding the AirNZ 744 that had the engine failure out of LAX the other week. Was it a RR or GE powered machine? And what has the fault been tracked down to?
Hard ask but NZ1 might know.
Affected passengers got a five star hotel, my cousin being one of them!  

Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 52): Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 37): Has the possibility of a CHC-PER routing ever been explored by NZ? I am sure it has existed in the past, and from memory used to flown with a 747. This was possibly in the late 80's or early 90's

It was a BA service, routing from London to PER-CHC-AKL-PER and back to London.

Quoting Axio (Reply 57): Add to that the tantalizing possibility of linking into the world's fourth global alliance - the Virgin network - with its connections through Australia to Europe and (soon to be) America

I'm interested in this. My understanding was that one of the restrictions placed on Virgin America was that it should not form too close a relationship with the other Virgin enterprises. I'm not sure what the specific restrictions were - does anyone know? Has this changed in any way recently?

And I'm not sure how much of an alliance the Virgin Group really is anyway - there's Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Blue, of course, and (I think) Virgin Nigeria, in addition to Virgin America (whose ability to link may, as I suggested, be restricted). I think that there was an abortive attempt a few years ago at a "Virgin Sun" in South Africa (am I correct?) and there's the also-expired Virgin Express, based in Brussels. Are there any other Virgin entities?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 61): Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 56): might depend on who the new owner is & what exactly they want to do with Ozjet or more precisely Ozjet's AOC ? Use Ozjets AOC as DJs LCC

This is an interesting idea, given that DJ has been moving steadily toward the middle-upper market, and leaving its cheap-flight roots. Yet with competition from Tiger and Lion, and QF having JQ as its cheap-airline foil, Virgin may well find itself a bit on the outer. Along with NZ, given it has wrapped up SJ, but Tiger has already indicated its interest in crossing the Tasman (though for domestic flight, I'm less sure). Though NZ may be aided by the cost structure of Zeal 320.

Here's another interesting prospect: DJ buys Ozjet as its LCC, as 777ER suggested, and then uses Ozjet as its domestic carrier in New Zealand, given that NZ has the business market sewn up, and QF has its mits on whatever crumbs remain. Would QF counter by quitting and putting JQ on its New Zealand domestic routes?

Food for thought . . . The ownership announcement will be interesting.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 66): Use Ozjets AOC as DJs LCC This is an interesting idea, given that DJ has been moving steadily toward the middle-upper market, and leaving its cheap-flight roots. Yet with competition from Tiger and Lion, and QF having JQ as its cheap-airline foil,

With all due respect, Virgin Blue has chosen to move up to a higher-cost, higher-yield market niche because that is where the profits are. They could have stayed in the gutter with Tiger and Jetstar if they wanted to, but they have learned that there are bigger and easier profits to be made, as Geoff Dixon's stewardship of Qantas has shown.

From my market (Gold Coast) to Sydney you can fly Jetstar for around $69 one-way, Virgin Blue (with frequent flyer points and lounge access and satellite TV for purchase) for $89 and Qantas (with food, points, the Qantas Club etc) for around $119. Tiger, if available, would start at around $59.

Basically Virgin Blue has seen that the future is a low cost-base Qantas-lite, not an Australian Ryanair.

I don't think Virgin Blue has any wish to go back delving for diamonds in the sewers. If they did, I don't think it would be by buying a company flying antique 737-200 and 737-300 aircraft of the dreadful fuel economy which has just bankrupted Aloha and I don't think that they would be cherry-picking a carrier with routes to Palmy and Norfolk Island which no-one else wants.

And anyway, if REALDEAL is right about impending economic disaster, I suspect that the first travel to be sacrificed will be discretionary self-funded travel on LCCs, while the corporate world and the affluent will keep flying regardless.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 67): With all due respect, Virgin Blue has chosen to move up to a higher-cost, higher-yield market niche because that is where the profits are.

I absolutely agree that that's been their rationale over the last while. But in the ever-changing airline scene I don't think that there are any long-term "givens". With oil prices rapidly escalating, and the advent of true LCCs in Australia, the more expensive end of the market may shrink. If that were to happen, who knows who might be the winners? And what might be DJ's own analysis of the situation?

Then again, you might be right, and they may continue to make good money at the more expensive end of the market . . . who knows? Just putting out some possibilities.

Hey Guys

heres a trip report over the tasman on EK you might me interesteded in

Click Here

enjoy

NZ99

I have heard rumours recently about VB looking at buying ozjet to use as its new Ultra Low-cost airline, so this would seem to work with the rumours of a buyer for ozjet. There may well be some interesting announcements in the coming days!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 54): Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 52): If I was Rob Fyfe, I would shut down the Shanghai base and staff the flights from Auckland, and let the Chinese workers who obviously are not happy seek excellence elsewhere and put an end to this media beat up. Then the company would have to reforecast a lower profit margin due to "higher wages" and the shareholders may not necessarily be happy from the increase of wages..

I asked Rob about this, and he said that NZ needs the PVG base simply for the language skills. 80% of the load on that flight is tourists from China/Elsewhere to NZ. The PVG based crew spent 6 weeks in NZ doing a full tour and sightseeing of everything to kiwiize them a bit (paid for by the airline). Thats pretty much the only reason that base even exists is the language. In hindsight they were also thinking about the PEK route starting up which some of those flight attendants will work as well.

As far as reforcasting profit that would be the case, but NZ took a little thing called "the cost-of-living" into consideration when figuring their salaries. They are well paid for Chinese workers. Its all perspective, and someone is just a bit jealous and decided to raise hell.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 71): They are well paid for Chinese workers.

One mo' time - they're not working in China.

mariner

Quoting Mariner (Reply 72): One mo' time - they're not working in China.

They are Chineese and they "work". What should I refer to them as??

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 73): They are Chineese and they "work". What should I refer to them as??

This is covered - extensively - in the previous thread. They are certainly Chinese, but they work in a New Zealand work-place.

mariner

Yea and anyways.

I have another question I have been meaning to ask but been away for a while. Has anyone used the new bag-tag printers on the self-service kiosks in WLG yet (got them bout a week ago)?? I know AKL has played with them before, but they are giving us nothing but problems in WLG at least from my experiences, a few passengers actually know how to put the tags on but not many. I dont believe it saves much time as we can apply the tags a lot faster than the pax and the weight of the bags still needs to be updated in the system. I dont know just seems like its more trouble than its worth.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 71): I asked Rob about this, and he said that NZ needs the PVG base simply for the language skills.

Oh come on!
Mr. Fyfe has obviously not visited Howick or Pakuranga for a while.
There are thousands of appropriately qualified, Mandarin and Cantonese speaking Asian New Zealanders in those two suburbs alone who would make fantastic crew.
Dozens have just been successfully recruited by Air NZ as permanent, AKL based crew. The number of applications was overwhelming.
Air NZ could even save the money they spent on the whiz-bang quickstop tour of New Zealand for the Shanghai based crew, because.. shock, horror... the Asian New Zealanders already KNOW New Zealand, because they're part of it!

Quoting Koruman (Reply 67): I don't think Virgin Blue has any wish to go back delving for diamonds in the sewers. If they did, I don't think it would be by buying a company flying antique 737-200 and 737-300 aircraft of the dreadful fuel economy which has just bankrupted Aloha and I don't think that they would be cherry-picking a carrier with routes to Palmy and Norfolk Island which no-one else wants.

Think the 732's would be scrapped very quickly once the 733's & other 737 types(newer than 732's) arrive, if that's still the plan.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 67): right about impending economic disaster, I suspect that the first travel to be sacrificed will be discretionary self-funded travel on LCCs, while the corporate world and the affluent will keep flying regardless.

you can't seriously suggest it's not going to happen, it's just a matter of when.

Hell, China getting stuck into Tibet might cost them big dollars, if the Tibetan supporters take aim at Chinese exports rather than the Olympics.

Also, when recession does kick in some small business types might switch fom likes of QF to LCC's or ULCC's to save money, they are no longer earning !!!

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 68): Quoting Koruman (Reply 67): With all due respect, Virgin Blue has chosen to move up to a higher-cost, higher-yield market niche because that is where the profits are.

Well, what is the definition of a Low Cost Carrier? The cost when I am planning my next trip. Trip could be tomorrow, when I take it I will not pay bottom dollar or in three months, when I get a fare on any airline which should be quite cheap if I plan ahead and make sure the trip is not during school holidays. Sometimes Qantas will have the best fare available at the time of looking, a perhaps some people will be happy to pay up to $50 more each way because it is Qantas. ( ' We bought it because it was a Holden".)

Virgin Blue does not have to be higher cost to buy if you buy a sale fare, and you avoid lounge costs and things that you do not need at the airport. I cannot see why VB would want to use Ozjet as its low cost operation, when that would be competing against brand new A320s operated by Tiger and Jetstar on Australian domestic routes. If VB are really thinking of using Ozjet to operate NZ domestic services on behalf of Pacific Blue, they will have to be very careful that 30 year old 732s will not destroy PB's reputation in the NZ market. Even if they are looking for 733s and 735s, some of those planes are not the youngest either

PB can sell low fares in the NZ market by very careful use of yield management on their own planes. They will already know which days they can offer more low cost seats. Presumably, they are not selling many low cost seats on 8am flights between AKL and WLG, otherwise, what are they doing here?

Quoting Axio (Reply 57): I have to admit I don't at all understand the whole PacBlue vs VirginBlue thing

Virgin Blue is Virgins Australian ops...
Pac Blue is so named because SQ owns 49% of VS and placed a restriction on the name Virgin being used for Intl ops from Australia (hence why the soon to be V Australia is not called Virgin Australia). Virgin Blue of course operates the Tasman and in NZL as well as Island ops along with its partner Poly Blue (which is a partnership with the Samoa Govt Polynesian Air).

Quoting Mariner (Reply 72): Quoting Georgebush (Reply 71): They are well paid for Chinese workers. One mo' time - they're not working in China.

They live in China and work FROM China only thing New Zealand about it is the plane they work on and that they stay overnight in AKL.
Mariner...let me put this another way for you... if all F/As are supposed to be paid the same as you suggest then NZ has crews that fly up to the USA... why not pay them USA pay rates? Or Australian pay rates etc etc...
The answer is that the crew live and work in NZL and their pay is adjusted accordingly a level more suited towards what pay rates are in NZL. The China crews get paid likewise wages that are closer to what wages are like in China.

The only real issue here is the allowances whilst slipping in AKL.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 74): This is covered - extensively - in the previous thread. They are certainly Chinese, but they work in a New Zealand work-place.

Yes it has and you still dont seem to get it. So for the last time, they don't work in a NZ workplace, the plane they work on is owned by a NZ airline but we have discussed how this is irrelevant.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 72): One mo' time - they're not working in China.

When do they start getting paid? When they board the aircraft at PVG, when do they stop getting paid? when they deboard the aircraft when it gets back to PVG. Its very simple they clock-in in China and Clock-out in China, hence they are Chinese workers. You certainly have no argument to say that they're New Zealand workers.

Cheers NZA320

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): They live in China and work FROM China only thing New Zealand about it is the plane they work on and that they stay overnight in AKL.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): Yes it has and you still dont seem to get it. So for the last time, they don't work in a NZ workplace, the plane they work on is owned by a NZ airline but we have discussed how this is irrelevant.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): When do they start getting paid? When they board the aircraft at PVG, when do they stop getting paid? when they deboard the aircraft when it gets back to PVG. Its very simple they clock-in in China and Clock-out in China, hence they are Chinese workers. You certainly have no argument to say that they're New Zealand workers.

I have to say that the argument that "they are well paid for Chinese workers" falls apart totally when you consider that when they are in New Zealand, their daily living expenses IN NEW ZEALAND are a third of what NZ-based crew get in China or anywhere else.

NZA320, 777ER and ZKpilot ignore that at their intellectual and moral peril.

I almost agree with Mariner here. I can swallow the Chinese crew being paid Chinese-sized wages, but it is an absolute outrage that their daily living allowance in New Zealand is based upon the cost of living in China and not New Zealand.

The other issue is the appalling waste of paying this disgraceful Chinese agency such large sums when it siphons off almost 40% for itself. As Rob Fyfe has explained, the workers may only be on 40% of a New Zealand salary but the cost to the airline is around 70% of what it would cost to employ Chinese New Zealanders.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 77): Hell, China getting stuck into Tibet might cost them big dollars, if the Tibetan supporters take aim at Chinese exports rather than the Olympics.

The PRC probably made a major misjudgment in viewing the Olympics as an opportunity to present an idealised, sanitised China to the world. What has happened in Tibet and the Xinjiang / East Turkestan hijacking is the worst case scenario for China: of course they cannot achieve independence militarily, but the public relations damage to China is a total catastrophe. The whole world is aware of issues which most had forgotten, and China's image is unquestionably worse than the USSR's was in 1980.

And there is a link with aviation here. Worst of all for the PRC's ruling "communists' in the sordid Air New Zealand salary/expenses issue, the world is seeing that its own employment agency FIASCO, sorry, Fasco, rips off Chinese workers by diverting huge sums employers provide it for their salaries and appropriates them for who and what knows what.

I'm prepared for once to be charitable to Rob Fyfe here. It may be that Air NZ keeps the expenses in its own hands and not FIASCO's because they know damn well that Fasco basically siphon off almost half of what they are paid.

Quoting HLZCPH (Reply 65): Regarding the AirNZ 744 that had the engine failure out of LAX the other week. Was it a RR or GE powered machine? And what has the fault been tracked down to?

Was a RR powered bird. The fault is still being investigated.

NZ1

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): They live in China and work FROM China only thing New Zealand about it is the plane they work on and that they stay overnight in AKL.

That's right. It is a New Zealand aircraft, staffed with other New Zealanders, who are employed under New Zealand work rules.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): Mariner...let me put this another way for you... if all F/As are supposed to be paid the same as you suggest then NZ has crews that fly up to the USA... why not pay them USA pay rates?

This isn't "another way" because it is covered - again extensively - in the previous thread.

So - again - why should they be paid US rates? They are employed by a New Zealand company, where New Zealand rules of employment prevail.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): The answer is that the crew live and work in NZL and their pay is adjusted accordingly a level more suited towards what pay rates are in NZL.

But no one from New Zealand is paid less than the New Zealand minimum wage. Or - I trust they are not.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): Yes it has and you still dont seem to get it.

I love it when people tell me "I don't get it."

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): they don't work in a NZ workplace, the plane they work on is owned by a NZ airline but we have discussed how this is irrelevant.

I have never agreed it is irrelevant. To me, it is totally relevant. How is the NZ aircraft where people work not a New Zealand work-place?

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): You certainly have no argument to say that they're New Zealand workers.

I don't claim they are. They are Chinese workers employed (ostensibly) by a New Zealand company.

If Air New Zealand brought a Chinese worker to work in Head Office in Auckland - for language, or diplomatic, etiquette or some other skills - I would object if that Chinese worker were paid less than NZ minimum wage.

Is the NZ minimum wage so irrelevant to you? Lucky bloke. Thank all those who went before you and fought for it.

mariner

Phones! You will have seen that Emirates will be allowing calls on their planes - you will pay roaming rates, which is enough to put me off. I think the Emirates deal is for their worldwide route network, so flights to South America, Europe, Africa will have good sattelite coverage for their phone service. They say that only 6 people will be able to make a call at any one time, and not while everyone else is to trying to sleep.

Then Qantas announced their Australian domestic services - Text/SMS service for people with mobile phones, and Email on GPRS equipped Blackberries.

If you look at North America, you will see Southwest introducing WiFi on their planes, and JetBlue are introducing some browsing services on their seat back systems.

Apart from Emirates, non of the airlines are keen on us using our devices for voice calls - Southwest will block people trying to use Skype on their planes.

So, the airline industry is not able to agree on one system where we can take one device onto any plane in the world, and it will work on all of them. Perhaps IATA did have its uses after all.


What are we likely to get on NZ planes? AirNZ could give us something similar to the Qantas offering on 737s and A320s - main use will be to tell our friends what time to meet us at the airport. I think it is a pity Qantas is not offering WiFi now, because ability to send emails that are longer than Texts/SMS is useful. But maybe Text messages are all that people want for the moment.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 80): You certainly have no argument to say that they're New Zealand workers

You are skating on very thin ice here, my friend. If that is the case they should not have New Zealand work permits, and in that case they are not legally allowed to work on the Shanghai-Auckland route for Air New Zealand.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): They live in China and work FROM China only thing New Zealand about it is the plane they work on and that they stay overnight in AKL.

And the facts that they each have New Zealand Work Permits, and that those Work Permits show that their employer is none other than Air New Zealand.

Foreign airlines are allowed to use foreign crews to NZ without work permits. New Zealand carriers are subject to New Zealand work permits for their employees.

I hope that when they visit London next, NZA320, 777ER and ZKpilot budget a nice Kiwi amount - say NZ$100 per day - to get from Heathrow to London, to pay for their accommodation and to buy their food, drink and entertainment. They say, after all, that one should only budget while overseas for what one would pay in one's own country.

And as they walk the 25 kilometers from the airport to the park bench on which they will have to sleep, before scavenging food from the garbage bin, they can contemplate why the Shanghai-based crews' daily living expenses while in New Zealand really should be based upon the cost of living in New Zealand, not China.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): I have to say that the argument that "they are well paid for Chinese workers" falls apart totally when you consider that when they are in New Zealand, their daily living expenses IN NEW ZEALAND are a third of what NZ-based crew get in China or anywhere else. NZA320, 777ER and ZKpilot ignore that at their intellectual and moral peril. I almost agree with Mariner here. I can swallow the Chinese crew being paid Chinese-sized wages, but it is an absolute outrage that their daily living allowance in New Zealand is based upon the cost of living in China and not New Zealand.

Which is why I had said this...which you convienently left out:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): The only real issue here is the allowances whilst slipping in AKL.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): The other issue is the appalling waste of paying this disgraceful Chinese agency such large sums when it siphons off almost 40% for itself. As Rob Fyfe has explained, the workers may only be on 40% of a New Zealand salary but the cost to the airline is around 70% of what it would cost to employ Chinese New Zealanders.

I agree that there does seem to be significant wastage going on there... not sure of those details in that aparently it is a legal requirement that Chinese workers for foreign airlines must work through FASCO.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): They live in China and work FROM China only thing New Zealand about it is the plane they work on and that they stay overnight in AKL. That's right. It is a New Zealand aircraft, staffed with other New Zealanders, who are employed under New Zealand work rules.

It is staffed by New Zealanders who are managers (and thus paid as such)... there are not New Zealanders working as F/As only like the Chinese on these flights.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 79): Mariner...let me put this another way for you... if all F/As are supposed to be paid the same as you suggest then NZ has crews that fly up to the USA... why not pay them USA pay rates? This isn't "another way" because it is covered - again extensively - in the previous thread. So - again - why should they be paid US rates? They are employed by a New Zealand company, where New Zealand rules of employment prevail.

Well since you seem to be stuck in your own opinion and not able to see what most people are saying I thought I might be able to use a different example to show how your argument is flawed.  
Using your argument here: Why should they be paid New Zealand rates?.... they work for a Chinese Company, where Chinese rules of employment prevail.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): But no one from New Zealand is paid less than the New Zealand minimum wage. Or - I trust they are not.

But no one from China is paid less than the Chinese minimum wage. Or - I trust they are not.

Some interesting new news..



The Government is changing the rules for passengers in transit through New Zealand.

Immigration Minister Clayton Cosgrove says as of Friday, transit visas will be needed for all people travelling via New Zealand, unless they are specifically exempted by immigration policy.

He says the change is due to increased security requirements and changing travel patterns.

Mr Cosgrove says the new policy will strengthen risk management and future proof border control.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 86): they work for a Chinese Company, where Chinese rules of employment prevail.

Okay, so then please explain the Chinese conjuring trick that Air New Zealand is now pulling - all smoke and mirrors.

If they work for a Chinese company where Chinese rates prevail - and over which Air New Zealand has no control - why is Air New Zealand instituting a pay review of those "foreign employees" employed by a "foreign company."?

And how can Air New Zealand have any control over their per diem or issue them a credit card, which, under your scenario, is entirely a matter between the Chinese f/a's and their Chinese employer?

mariner

Quoting Koruman (Reply 85): And the facts that they each have New Zealand Work Permits, and that those Work Permits show that their employer is none other than Air New Zealand. Foreign airlines are allowed to use foreign crews to NZ without work permits. New Zealand carriers are subject to New Zealand work permits for their employees. I hope that when they visit London next, NZA320, 777ER and ZKpilot budget a nice Kiwi amount - say NZ$100 per day - to get from Heathrow to London, to pay for their accommodation and to buy their food, drink and entertainment. They say, after all, that one should only budget while overseas for what one would pay in one's own country. And as they walk the 25 kilometers from the airport to the park bench on which they will have to sleep, before scavenging food from the garbage bin, they can contemplate why the Shanghai-based crews' daily living expenses while in New Zealand really should be based upon the cost of living in New Zealand, not China.

The visa is something I'd imagine probably has something to do with them needing to come to NZL for training etc which is work and which they were paid differently etc than what they get when they are slipping.
NZ$100 per day would be fine for food and something to do for 24 hours no problem... I think you have the issue mixed up a bit here K'man.... a) crew don't have to pay for transport whether it be from Heathrow to London or AKL airport to Auckland. b) they don't have to pay for accomodation... which in the Chinese crew case is actually a very nice hotel here in AKL! c) food, drink and entertainment is all crew have to pay for...
so save the sob stories about park benches and walking please  

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): I have to say that the argument that "they are well paid for Chinese workers" falls apart totally when you consider that when they are in New Zealand, their daily living expenses IN NEW ZEALAND are a third of what NZ-based crew get in China or anywhere else.

I was auguring the fact that they should not be paid the NZ min wage, in previous posts I have already acknowledgted that I dislike the current allowance that the PVG f/as get, however Air NZ seem to be addressing the issue now.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): That's right. It is a New Zealand aircraft, staffed with other New Zealanders, who are employed under New Zealand work rules.

Yes, but they are f/a managers who live in NZ, wheres the chinese workers are f/as who live in China. I can see where you are coming from here but you need to look at the facts. The chinese f/as are employed via a chinese company and live and technically work in China, so therefore chinese work rules apply.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): I have never agreed it is irrelevant. To me, it is totally relevant. How is the NZ aircraft where people work not a New Zealand work-place?

Well you never disagreed with it when I provided a valid argument. Ownership of the workplace and even the company is irrelevant. Wages are decided on the basis of where you live and work and the standard/costs of living in that country. E.g. I work for an Australian company in a building owned by the Australian company. Yet since I live and work in NZ I get paid in line with NZ wage rates.

Can we at least agree that the PVG f/as technically work in China since that is where their work shift starts and where it ends.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): If Air New Zealand brought a Chinese worker to work in Head Office in Auckland - for language, or diplomatic, etiquette or some other skills - I would object if that Chinese worker were paid less than NZ minimum wage.

So would I but thats because the worker will be living and working in NZ.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): Yes, but they are f/a managers who live in NZ,

They are on a 3 year contract as SHANGHAI BASED crew. They live in Shanghai, not New Zealand, for those 3 years.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): but you need to look at the facts

Love it.  

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): The chinese f/as are employed via a chinese company and live and technically work in China, so therefore chinese work rules apply.

Their work permits say their employer is Air New Zealand. You say Air New Zealand is not their employer. In that case, they are here illegally.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): so therefore chinese work rules apply.

That's an interesting concept, especially on board an aircraft when it comes to say, safety regulations. Or even just permitted hours of work.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): I work for an Australian company in a building owned by the Australian company.

I don't know the corporate structure of your company. Generally, in similar circumstances, you would work for a New Zealand company, which may be wholly or partially owned by an Australian company. Generally, there would be at least one or two NZ board members, and generally, some shareholding in NZ.

Coca-Cola is not made in New Zealand by Coca Cola Enterprises Inc. It is made by Coca-Cola Amatil NZ Ltd, a New Zealand company. So NZ work laws apply.

Of course, there may be shareholding exceptions to the above, but even if a wholly owned Australian company could employ New Zealanders in NZ, they would still have to pay the NZ minimum wage.

And the minimum wage is all I care about.

mariner

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 86): It is staffed by New Zealanders who are managers (and thus paid as such)... there are not New Zealanders working as F/As only like the Chinese on these flights.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): I can see where you are coming from here but you need to look at the facts. The chinese f/as are employed via a chinese company and live and technically work in China, so therefore chinese work rules apply.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): Can we at least agree that the PVG f/as technically work in China since that is where their work shift starts and where it ends.

Marvellous work chaps!

Obviously for staff working on the 777-200ER services between Shanghai and Auckland the staff "work in China" and "their work shift starts and ends in China" so they should be paid Chinese-sized wages.

Are you going to tell the pilots or am I? Because if your arguments are to be accepted, they too should now be brought in line, with 30% of their current income being diverted to the airline, 40% being given to FASCO and the pilots reduced to 30% of their current wages.

Oh, and since the Chinese cabin crew overnighting in Auckland already only get 30% of what Kiwi staff get overseas, and you have advised me that the cost of living in China is only a quarter of what it is in New Zealand, then the pilots now need to be brought in line by having their overnight expenses in Shanghai reduced by 92.5%.

Of course we Kiwis are an egalitarian lot. I know that Zkpilot and NZA320 wouldn't discriminate by race or education level, so they obviously will be happy for the same principles and scaled down wages to be applied to the pilots as to the cabin crew, as they work the same flights.

I don't totally agree with Mariner on this matter though. It's bad enough that the Chinese crew are paid such crappy wages and even worse allowances, but what I find really offensive is that the cost to the airline (and the NZ taxpayer) is virtually as much as if Kiwis were employed, and in effect all we are really witnessing is a large transfer of money from New Zealand which is siphoned off by Fasco and presumably then gets recycled through Macau's dubious establishments.

[Edited 2008-03-25 23:16:53]

Quoting TG992 (Reply 91): They are on a 3 year contract as SHANGHAI BASED crew. They live in Shanghai, not New Zealand, for those 3 years.

Thanks for that. My mistake.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92): Quoting NZA320 (Reply 90): The chinese f/as are employed via a chinese company Their work permits say their employer is Air New Zealand. You say Air New Zealand is not their employer. In that case, they are here illegally.

I didn't say that, read it again what I stated was a fact, they are employed by fasco for Air NZ.  

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92): That's an interesting concept, especially on board an aircraft when it comes to say, safety regulations. Or even just permitted hours of work.

Safety regulation rules come from what country the aircraft is registered in I believe. Permitted hours of work come from the workers country.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92): I don't know the corporate structure of your company. Generally, in similar circumstances, you would work for a New Zealand company, which may be wholly or partially owned by an Australian company.

I see your point.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92): Of course, there may be shareholding exceptions to the above, but even if a wholly owned Australian company could employ New Zealanders in NZ, they would still have to pay the NZ minimum wage. And the minimum wage is all I care about.

Yes buts that because they would be working and living in NZ. Where these PVG f/as are living and working in China so therefore they should be getting at least the chinese minimum wage. Compared to other wage rates in china these PVG f/as seem to be getting above what would be considered the china minimum wage.

I agree that the PVG crews should get paid a decent wage. However they shouldn't get the NZ minimum wage, because they work and live in China and so that should decide their wage rate.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): Obviously for staff working on the 777-200ER services between Shanghai and Auckland the staff "work in China" and "their work shift starts and ends in China" so they should be paid Chinese-sized wages. Are you going to tell the pilots or am I? Because if your arguments are to be accepted, they too should now be brought in line, with 30% of their current income being diverted to the airline, 40% being given to FASCO and the pilots reduced to 30% of their current wages.

Actually going by what I said earlier, the pilots (who are based in Auckland and live in Auckland) shifts will start in AKL and will end once they get back to AKL. So new zealand wage rates apply to the pilots.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): Oh, and since the Chinese cabin crew overnighting in Auckland already only get 30% of what Kiwi staff get overseas, and you have advised me that the cost of living in China is only a quarter of what it is in New Zealand, then the pilots now need to be brought in line by having their overnight expenses in Shanghai reduced by 92.5%.

This is a valid point and I agree with your logic on this.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): what I find really offensive is that the cost to the airline (and the NZ taxpayer) is virtually as much as if Kiwis were employed

Which is my basic position, except I am concerned about future employment opportunities for New Zealanders.

If Air NZ is allowed to employ foreign staff because they are a tad cheaper, it becomes very attractive to Air NZ.

As I said in the previous thread, those same Shanghai f/a's could just as easily do the Hong Kong runs - and we've already had the Mandarin/Cantonese debate.

But why stop there? As someone suggested here, they could do the Beijing runs as well. And then....

Welcome to outsourcing.

mariner

[Edited 2008-03-25 23:29:17]

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): Are you going to tell the pilots or am I? Because if your arguments are to be accepted, they too should now be brought in line, with 30% of their current income being diverted to the airline, 40% being given to FASCO and the pilots reduced to 30% of their current wages.

Pilots are AKL based. As NZA320 pointed out.

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 94): Actually going by what I said earlier, the pilots (who are based in Auckland and live in Auckland) shifts will start in AKL and will end once they get back to AKL. So new zealand wage rates apply to the pilots.

  

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): but what I find really offensive is that the cost to the airline (and the NZ taxpayer) is virtually as much as if Kiwis were employed, and in effect all we are really witnessing is a large transfer of money from New Zealand which is siphoned off by Fasco and presumably then gets recycled through Macau's dubious establishments.

I agree with you on this, although I do doubt NZs figures on how little they save... I'd hazard a guess that once accounting hasn't fiddled with the figures etc that NZ would be saving over $1m pa, which I think is justifyable... but like you said either way its still taking money out of NZL.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 96): Quoting Koruman (Reply 93): but what I find really offensive is that the cost to the airline (and the NZ taxpayer) is virtually as much as if Kiwis were employed, and in effect all we are really witnessing is a large transfer of money from New Zealand which is siphoned off by Fasco and presumably then gets recycled through Macau's dubious establishments. I agree with you on this, although I do doubt NZs figures on how little they save... I'd hazard a guess that once accounting hasn't fiddled with the figures etc that NZ would be saving over $1m pa, which I think is justifyable... but like you said either way its still taking money out of NZL.

isn't this comparable to sitution in OZ with pilots shortage ...

In OZ we have a 457 visa which think means an airline who can't find enough pilots in OZ can employ foreign pilots.

Seems regionals especially have been cancelling flights due to lack of pilots.

If airlines were to bring in foreign pilots then surely they'd be paid less ?

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 97): isn't this comparable to sitution in OZ with pilots shortage ... In OZ we have a 457 visa which think means an airline who can't find enough pilots in OZ can employ foreign pilots. Seems regionals especially have been cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. If airlines were to bring in foreign pilots then surely they'd be paid less ?

I think it is a slightly different situation in that those pilots would be living and working within Australia... The end result your case however would be that yes wages would be lower for all pilots in Australia as it relieves wage pressure. The reason why there is a pilot shortage in Australia is that a) there is a mining boom which has doubled the number of pilots needed in regional WA... b) aviation overall has had a boom also. c) pilots pay hasn't really risen much over the past decade or so and is no longer considered a large incentive for perspective pilots (why study so much, do the hard yards and have it tough for years with no guaranteed job when you can do an easier degree and become a highly paid accountant, lawyer, marketer etc straight out of uni). d) There isn't really much in the way of internship/training type schemes going in Australia (or NZL for that matter) QF does now have a cadetship program if you are able to fork over about $100k.
and finally being a pilot isn't as glamourous as it used to be... people aren't wowed by it anymore, flying in a plane is a common thing that everyone justabout can do. Pilots are sealed behind a door and don't interact with the pax or hardly even the crew anymore... back in the day most F/As used to be female and glamourous and many male pilots ended up marrying them etc... that doesn't really happen much anymore either...

[Edited 2008-03-26 00:18:16]

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 66): Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 52): Quoting SQ6807 (Reply 37): Has the possibility of a CHC-PER routing ever been explored by NZ? I am sure it has existed in the past, and from memory used to flown with a 747. This was possibly in the late 80's or early 90's It was a BA service, routing from London to PER-CHC-AKL-PER and back to London.

I wasn't referring to the BA Route which was canned, but an NZ Route.

The route map from 1990 tends to support my memory

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimyvrroutemap/250207591/

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 84): Phones! You will have seen that Emirates will be allowing calls on their planes - you will pay roaming rates, which is enough to put me off. I think the Emirates deal is for their worldwide route network, so flights to South America, Europe, Africa will have good sattelite coverage for their phone service. They say that only 6 people will be able to make a call at any one time, and not while everyone else is to trying to sleep. Then Qantas announced their Australian domestic services - Text/SMS service for people with mobile phones, and Email on GPRS equipped Blackberries.

I would be able to handle txt messages, but not phone calls every few mins on a flight

Quoting Koruman (Reply 85): I hope that when they visit London next, NZA320, 777ER and ZKpilot budget a nice Kiwi amount - say NZ$100 per day - to get from Heathrow to London, to pay for their accommodation and to buy their food, drink and entertainment. They say, after all, that one should only budget while overseas for what one would pay in one's own country.

I never said that I could live on my own countrys money value while overseas! I said that I could live on $15 daily for meals, weither that is US$15 or 15 pounds. Maybe get your facts correct when quoting someone like that!

Quoting TG992 (Reply 87):

Interesting news. I'm starting to wonder if we as a country, are moving towards a USA type rule with this visa requirment, and will this new rule be the stopping point for people by bypass New Zealand (just like LAX) due to visa requirments. IMHO a visa for transit pax are a waste of money and time, as they can't legially enter the country as Customs would stop them

Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 99): I wasn't referring to the BA Route which was canned, but an NZ Route. The route map from 1990 tends to support my memory

I don't recall there being an NZ flight from CHC-PER. Did NZ code share on the BA flight? I wonder if the route map is showing connections available?

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): almost agree with Mariner here. I can swallow the Chinese crew being paid Chinese-sized wages, but it is an absolute outrage that their daily living allowance in New Zealand is based upon the cost of living in China and not New Zealand.

I agree they can be paid Chinese wages if they are based in China. The allowances should be based on cost of living in that lay over city.

Next people will be saying anyone working for a UK company in NZ should be paid UK wages.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 95): But why stop there? As someone suggested here, they could do the Beijing runs as well. And then....

Well just be thankful it is not like Jetstar. Hiring cheap Bangkok crew and then putting them all through the network like SYD-HNL. At least the chinese crew with NZ are confined to the Chinese routes for now.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 100): I would be able to handle txt messages, but not phone calls every few mins on a flight

Yesterday I was on a five hour bus ride between CHC and DUD (couldn't afford to fly) and people in the bus were making phone calls and texting. The calls were not too bad if people spoke at a reasonable volume - would it be worse in a plane than in a bus? Phones did make a noise when a text arrived, which was more annoying than a quiet conversation.


Bus journey was city centre to city centre. Departure from DUD delayed 10 minutes to wait for one last passengers - which airline would do that? Arrival into CHC terminal delayed by a road accident. Buy on Board? What BOB? Half hour stop in Timaru. Refreshments at Timaru Station are lower cost that at most airports.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 101): don't recall there being an NZ flight from CHC-PER.

I seem to recall a once weekly NZ service CHC-PER a few years back - it may actually have been triangular CHC-AKL-PER-CHC or vv ?

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 103): Quoting 777ER (Reply 100): I would be able to handle txt messages, but not phone calls every few mins on a flight Yesterday I was on a five hour bus ride between CHC and DUD (couldn't afford to fly) and people in the bus were making phone calls and texting. The calls were not too bad if people spoke at a reasonable volume - would it be worse in a plane than in a bus? Phones did make a noise when a text arrived, which was more annoying than a quiet conversation.

The issue with bus v plane with regards to phone use, is the sound of the engines. The best example to use, is if you listen to music real loud (which is like the sound of an aircrafts engine which is real loud) and you talk to someone, then your going to yell, cause your mind is telling you that your not talking loud enough as your mind can't hear yourself. If your not listening to loud music, but quiet music (like a bus engine sound), then your going to talk normally cause your mind is telling you that it can hear yourself.

Quoting ANstar (Reply 102): Next people will be saying anyone working for a UK company in NZ should be paid UK wages.

That is not the argument. All that is at issue is the NZ minimum wage, which the Shanghai f/'s do not presently receive.

Quoting ANstar (Reply 102): At least the chinese crew with NZ are confined to the Chinese routes for now.

"For now" yes. But you have raised the example of JetStar.

I could easily put forwards a sound argument for having the Chinese f/a's on LAX and SFO, and if South America comes, why not some local f/a's there, for their language skills?

mariner

Since the PVG crew topic has been going for nearly two weeks, and I thought the topic had died a peaceful death, but now some members have put it back on life support, maybe its time it got its own thread, so here it is Air NZ Using PVG Crews On Chinese Rates (by 777ER Mar 26 2008 in Civil Aviation). Please continue that discussion in the new thread.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 77): Hell, China getting stuck into Tibet might cost them big dollars, if the Tibetan supporters take aim at Chinese exports rather than the Olympics.

Its not the $$$ as much as their image that they really care about.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 77): you can't seriously suggest it's not going to happen, it's just a matter of when.

It may happen, the real question is the magnitude of it effects in NZ, or Aussie. The NZ consumer confidence is in the toilet, however now that the IRD conveniently found an extra $600 mill change the Govts operating deficit to a surplus, it may be a while before it technically hits.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): I almost agree with Mariner here. I can swallow the Chinese crew being paid Chinese-sized wages, but it is an absolute outrage that their daily living allowance in New Zealand is based upon the cost of living in China and not New Zealand.

  

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): The PRC probably made a major misjudgment in viewing the Olympics as an opportunity to present an idealised, sanitised China to the world. What has happened in Tibet and the Xinjiang / East Turkestan hijacking is the worst case scenario for China: of course they cannot achieve independence militarily, but the public relations damage to China is a total catastrophe.

  

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): The whole world is aware of issues which most had forgotten, and China's image is unquestionably worse than the USSR's was in 1980.

How do you think the global media, and todays technology effects how we view situations today? I wasn't around in the 80's and don't really know of the 90's so I am unsure of you comparison. However I am sure most educated people would have been more than aware of China's darker sides, its just that Iraq/Iran/Britney are more interesting to the media, than China unless theres blood in the streets.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 83): I love it when people tell me "I don't get it."

I'm very confident you do get it, you're just principled and wont accept others views as correct.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 81): And there is a link with aviation here. Worst of all for the PRC's ruling "communists' in the sordid Air New Zealand salary/expenses issue, the world is seeing that its own employment agency FIASCO, sorry, Fasco, rips off Chinese workers by diverting huge sums employers provide it for their salaries and appropriates them for who and what knows what. I'm prepared for once to be charitable to Rob Fyfe here. It may be that Air NZ keeps the expenses in its own hands and not FIASCO's because they know damn well that Fasco basically siphon off almost half of what they are paid.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 96): I agree with you on this, although I do doubt NZs figures on how little they save... I'd hazard a guess that once accounting hasn't fiddled with the figures etc that NZ would be saving over $1m pa, which I think is justifyable... but like you said either way its still taking money out of NZL.

That is based on the assumption that it was an economic decision to hire Chinese f/a's. That is something which I also argued and believed, however I doubt that Air NZ would got public with incorrect figures, that could really burn them if it got out. Which leads me to ask the question Has there been any political interference? That FTA with China is awfully sensitive, and very important to this Govt, and also to NZ as a whole.

In an ideal world Air NZ would be independent of the Govt of the day...

Maybe that's just my conspiracist side talking.

If you really wanted to go to town maybe K'man's favorite CEO was against going to China in the first place but a certain lady in red suggested (not instructed cuz that more illegal than 140 to CHC) that it could be a good idea.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 88): If they work for a Chinese company where Chinese rates prevail - and over which Air New Zealand has no control - why is Air New Zealand instituting a pay review of those "foreign employees" employed by a "foreign company."? And how can Air New Zealand have any control over their per diem or issue them a credit card, which, under your scenario, is entirely a matter between the Chinese f/a's and their Chinese employer?

I had assumed that Fasco sent a bill, and NZ supplied uniforms, training and told people when to turn up, thus giving them no control over the overall pay packet of the f/a's but this would seem to say that they do have some say in the matter.

Quoting Knid (Reply 108): It may happen, the real question is the magnitude of it effects in NZ, or Aussie. The NZ consumer confidence is in the toilet, however now that the IRD conveniently found an extra $600 mill change the Govts operating deficit to a surplus, it may be a while before it technically hits.

2 of big financial markets of the western world U.S. & U.K. are already in the toilet.

Do u really think the mining boom will go on forever ? Have you considered that Chinese exports to U.S. & U.k. might drop off ?

Quoting Knid (Reply 108): I'm very confident you do get it, you're just principled and wont accept others views as correct.

No, I'm not sure what it is I "don't get", and so I'm not sure what you mean.

If someone can answer - credibly - the two questions I asked in post #88, then I will, of course, accept that.

But I am very used to swimming against the tide of popular opinion. I've been doing it most of my life. It isn't a problem for me.

mariner

Quoting Mariner (Reply 110): But I am very used to swimming against the tide of popular opinion. I've been doing it most of my life. It isn't a problem for me.

I figured as much.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 109): 2 of big financial markets of the western world U.S. & U.K. are already in the toilet. Do u really think the mining boom will go on forever ? Have you considered that Chinese exports to U.S. & U.k. might drop off ?

I'm sure that its going to hit else where, my question was how badly with it get us?

Was a RR powered bird. The fault is still being investigated.

NZ1


Thanks for the reply. So the aircraft continues later with the fault monitiored? Or is the engine changed? It's surely not parked up while the engineers scatch their heads......or is it?!

Are RR overhauls still done here or have they now been sent overseas?

Cheers.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 85): And the facts that they each have New Zealand Work Permits, and that those Work Permits show that their employer is none other than Air New Zealand.

Yes and all Long haul crews LHR and AKL base hold US work visas that does not entitle them to US wages and conditions .. I know NZ based crew could not operate using Mainland Chinese passports not sure if this is still the case or could be one of the reasons the PVG base must have a NZ work visa ..

Quoting NZA320 (Reply 94): Safety regulation rules come from what country the aircraft is registered in I believe. Permitted hours of work come from the workers country.

Actually i think the hours of work will all come under NZCAA laws as the aircraft is operated under a NZ air operators certificate .. I would take a guess that all Employment law would be governed by Chinese law but anything to do with safety would first have to pass NZCAA rules first and also any applicable Chinese laws as well ..

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 104): I seem to recall a once weekly NZ service CHC-PER a few years back - it may actually have been triangular CHC-AKL-PER-CHC or vv ?

I do not recall a PER-CHC flight as such but for a short while there was a CHC-PER Flt No which was in reality the CHC-AKL sector of a NRT-CHC-AKL Flt connecting to the AKL-PER Flt. There was no PER-CHC equivalent. I assume it was a marketing experiment.

Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 99): The route map from 1990 tends to support my memory

This is a hand drawn map, not printed. Note the straight lines over the page fold.

The May 1995 Timetable has AKL-PER NZ113 Wed & Fri 767. It was usually a 762, occasionally a 763.

PA515

Quoting Hornetfan (Reply 99): I wasn't referring to the BA Route which was canned, but an NZ Route. The route map from 1990 tends to support my memory

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 104): I seem to recall a once weekly NZ service CHC-PER a few years back - it may actually have been triangular CHC-AKL-PER-CHC or vv ?

Quoting PA515 (Reply 115): I do not recall a PER-CHC flight as such but for a short while there was a CHC-PER Flt No which was in reality the CHC-AKL sector of a NRT-CHC-AKL Flt connecting to the AKL-PER Flt. There was no PER-CHC equivalent. I assume it was a marketing experiment.

You're all onto something here - I had temporarily forgotten about the NZ service. In June 1991, it operated CHC-PER-AKL on a Sunday, and AKL-PER-CHC-AKL on a Wednesday.

I just read in another forum that NZ will move from T3 to T1 in Heathrow his Summer. Does anyone know if they will have their own lounge there?
I am happy that they move out out of UA's red carpet lounge since UA will stay in T3 as I understand it. NZ customers deserve better than a red carpet lounge!

Quoting Knid (Reply 112): I'm sure that its going to hit else where, my question was how badly with it get us?

think about it ... we've had a humungous boom & what follows a boom & the bigger the boom the bigger the bust.

Part of the problem is people in general don't want to do anything themselves anymore & just want to pay someone else to do it & so the growth in home services & luxury type services (spas) & part of diffuclty in getting tradesmen.

Some things will die completely as people find they've run out of credit or money which is getting more expensive.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 107): Since the PVG crew topic has been going for nearly two weeks, and I thought the topic had died a peaceful death, but now some members have put it back on life support, maybe its time it got its own thread, so here it is Air NZ Using PVG Crews On Chinese Rates (by 777ER Mar 26 2008 in Civil Aviation). Please continue that discussion in the new thread.

I'm not sure it is your place to decide what can and can't be talked about in this thread. Its great you do all the work in sorting the threads out (your decision to do so) but to decide that we need to move a conversation to another thread simply because you don't have anything more to say on the issue? I'm not sure that's cool. I for one am enjoying the discussion and am learning a bit through it. I guess it comes down to whether people think aviation is simply about the planes.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 119):

I never said it was my decision. Another member and I were talking and we both decided that the topic deserves its own thread due to its long running, and especially since its kind of turned into an argument which de-values the thread. If I want to reply to a post then I will, just because I havn't replyed to a post based on the PVG crew saga for more then 12 hours doesn't mean I'm no longer replying to them!

Quoting 777ER (Reply 120): Another member and I were talking and we both decided that the topic deserves its own thread due to its long running, and especially since its kind of turned into an argument which de-values the thread.

I wouldn't call it an argument at all. A healthy debate certainly. It devalues the thread? Hows is that? Isn't that an aspect of what these threads are for, healthy debate?

Two members decided it deserves its own thread so its gets moved out? I think there are more than two people who post here so it's not really a decision you two should make. This is the NZ aviation thread and this is a topic extremely relevant to the biggest player in NZ aviation - seems to me this is exactly where it should stay!

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 121): I wouldn't call it an argument at all. A healthy debate certainly. It devalues the thread? Hows is that? Isn't that an aspect of what these threads are for, healthy debate?

It devalues the thread because for the past 2 weeks it is same old, same old. That IMO has seen several members became more active in threads other than this one, myself included. And thats a shame. Personally I don't feel qualified to make a comment on the issue and don't like giving uneducated opinions on much...

The issue of the PVG crew is an important one, and I am by no means suggesting it's not worthy of discussion. Quite the opposite in fact as I support 777ER's move to begin it's own thread. I suppose we will have to wait and see what thread people want to post in.

GW

Quoting GarethW (Reply 122): That IMO has seen several members became more active in threads other than this one, myself included.

The message I get is that those who hold "contrary views" are not welcome in these threads.

I may not be a member of this club, but I have a life-long interest in aviation, I was born at a flying boat station in the Middle East, my fatther was an airline engineer, and I am an acknowledged commentator on a certain foreign airline.

And - I live in New Zealand.

Certainly, the issue in question merits its own thread. But I don't see how discussion of it or any controversial issue "devalues" this thread.

I have never known debate about a controversial subject to devalue that subject. I accept that it may, however, rock the boat.

mariner

Quoting GarethW (Reply 122): It devalues the thread because for the past 2 weeks it is same old, same old.

So? I still don't get it. Whats the big deal if you can't post on here for a few weeks because there is nothing you are able to comment on, and that you go and post in other threads. How's that an issue?

I agree with Mariner.

Why shouldn't the PVG discussion have its own thread? It is a subject that has generated a lot of discussion and this is worthwhile. But look at the NZ thread on 27 when Australia is only on 10. Perhaps this is because the Australians start more threads? They have a thread about V Australia, and Tiger, where we in NZ might have put all discussions in one thread.


People are certainly entitled to have their views on the PVG Cabin Crew Base, but the discussion does not seem to be moving anywhere. People really are saying the same things they said a week ago. On some discussion boards, this topic would have been closed down by a Moderator for that reason.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 123): was born at a flying boat station in the Middle East, my fatther was an airline engineer, and I am an acknowledged commentator on a certain foreign airline.

That's worth it's own thread!

I accept your point Mariner. My opinion is that we are getting further and further away from aviation because any discussion that involves China becomes notoriously political, especially given current circumstances. Now I know everyone will have a go at me saying "well aviation is about more than just planes etc etc" and I accept that ergo, I may be a little self-interested with this one.

Anyway, that's my last post about this subject.

GW

Quoting HLZCPH (Reply 113): Or is the engine changed? It's surely not parked up while the engineers scatch their heads......or is it?! Are RR overhauls still done here or have they now been sent overseas?

The engine was changed. The reason NBS was parked up for a wee while was because we had trouble getting a spare engine, due to our 2 currently being "in-work" at HAESL. All our RR engines are now overhauled by HAESL in Hong Kong.

NZ1

Surprised no one has posted it. Ozjet is pulling out before it has started:

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1664879

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 128): Surprised no one has posted it. Ozjet is pulling out before it has started: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1...64879

maybe this is a distraction from the real game - if DJ do buy Ozjet it might still do PMR.

Don't think Ozjet have recd a 733 yet anyway.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 129): Quoting NZ107 (Reply 128): Surprised no one has posted it. Ozjet is pulling out before it has started: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1...64879 maybe this is a distraction from the real game - if DJ do buy Ozjet it might still do PMR. Don't think Ozjet have recd a 733 yet anyway.

the Ozjet OZ phone number has recording ...

due to merger talks which r nearing completion ... full refunds for pax to PMR

Right so eventually we were vindicated by our reservations about 732s in general and their range specifically. No-one could find hard evidence of them receiving 733s or better hence they were obviously all along desperately trying to source an aircraft because they overpromised and.......wait for it........ UNDERDELIVERED! Surprise surprise.

Kiwijet will be next.

GW

Quoting GarethW (Reply 131): Right so eventually we were vindicated by our reservations about 732s in general and their range specifically. No-one could find hard evidence of them receiving 733s or better hence they were obviously all along desperately trying to source an aircraft because they overpromised and.......wait for it........ UNDERDELIVERED! Surprise surprise. Kiwijet will be next.

732's never meant to fly to PMR esp with fuel prices.

I think you'll find an announcement in next few days might clarify things.

Surely PMR can justify some service-maybe ULCC or does DJ have other things in mind like a E170 on a higher frequency basis than a 737 ?

E170's would surely work in an ULCC as long as kept moving for long hours everyday & by doing Trans-Tasman they could work almost around the clock especially if combined with either OZ or NZ domestic services or both.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 132): Quoting GarethW (Reply 131): Right so eventually we were vindicated by our reservations about 732s in general and their range specifically. No-one could find hard evidence of them receiving 733s or better hence they were obviously all along desperately trying to source an aircraft because they overpromised and.......wait for it........ UNDERDELIVERED! Surprise surprise. Kiwijet will be next.

actually thinking about it GarethW might have hit the nail on the head.

How does this scenrio sound ?

DJ/PB takes over Ozjet & also Kiwijet plans.

They set up an ULCC to do some thin Trans-Tasman routes & some thin OZ & NZ domestic routes. This would surely halt or slow down any expansion plans by Tiger/Junkstar.

Hey Tiger flys MEL/MCY but not even daily yet !!! This might be a route they put their A319's on so can go daily or more frequency than now.

DJ have lot of E-jets coming which must be economical fuel wise, but due to acquistion costs they have to keep them moving !!! (unlike the cheap F100's in many OZ airlines hands now)

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 121):

The same argument has been going backwards and forwards over and over and over again for the last two weeks and is going no where. Its pointless having an NZ aviation thread title if all were going to talk about is the PVG topic, which not everyone cares about or is interested in posting about! Thats why a PVG thread is excellent, as it enables the same arguments to go backwards and forwards and people interested in talking about it, can post there, while it leaves other members who are more interested in talking about new things in this thread. It seems the new PVG thread is getting more support then others who don't want it.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 129): maybe this is a distraction from the real game - if DJ do buy Ozjet it might still do PMR.

An Ozjet and PMR manager have said on One News that the new buyer of Ozjet doesn't want to serve NZ, so that totally rules out DJ!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 123): I have never known debate about a controversial subject to devalue that subject. I accept that it may, however, rock the boat.

Did you read the NZ Aviation Thread that was started by Zkpilot around November/December that was deleted all because of the discussion on the NZ hijacking? That topic didn't 'rock the boat', but it devalued the thread instead. The current talk on PVG has no gone past the point of being related to aviation. Come to think of it, maybe the PVG thread should be moved to non-av, cause thats really the level its gone to now, all because of the talks about the crew not being on NZs wage scale, pay while in AKL and the visa issue! When everyone signed up to a.net, they had to agree to keep topics in the Civil Aviation Thread to talks on aviation, and non aviation in the non aviation thread, and the PVG discussion on here and now 100% broken that rule

Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): and the PVG discussion on here and now 100% broken that rule

Then you should suggest that the thread - that you started so it could be discussed - be deleted.

mariner

[Edited 2008-03-26 22:30:46]

Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): An Ozjet and PMR manager have said on One News that the new buyer of Ozjet doesn't want to serve NZ, so that totally rules out DJ!

yes but do u believe it. It's not DJ/PB saying it, but PMR & Ozjet.

PMR might have been told to keep quiet & Ozjet might not exist anymore so who can be called a liar later?

Yes quite like the sound of that REALDEAL but my reservation is still the Kiwijet business model which seems to believe in operating BAE146/RJ100s. If those ideas could be scrapped and replaced by E-jets from DJ then yes, huge utilisation of the aircraft may almost make the prospect viable.

I'm sure the coming days and weeks will reveal all but the major question mark for me is the 'new aircraft, low CASM, high capex' model of DJ versus the 'old aircraft, higher CASM, low capex' model of OZJet and Kiwijet.

GW

Quoting GarethW (Reply 137): Yes quite like the sound of that REALDEAL but my reservation is still the Kiwijet business model which seems to believe in operating BAE146/RJ100s. If those ideas could be scrapped and replaced by E-jets from DJ then yes, huge utilisation of the aircraft may almost make the prospect viable. I'm sure the coming days and weeks will reveal all but the major question mark for me is the 'new aircraft, low CASM, high capex' model of DJ versus the 'old aircraft, higher CASM, low capex' model of OZJet and Kiwijet.

Kiwijets idea seemed workable as long as fuel didn't get too expensive. Think RJ100's are thirsty aren't they ?

An e170 or e190 could surely do everything an RJ100 could do with possible exception of some really short strips, burning less fuel, faster(slightly).

It all makes perfect sense except Ozjet AOC is for 732's. How hard to convert it to e-jets?

Or some other way DJ could operte e-jets thu Ozjet, whatever it's new name might be.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 138): Kiwijets idea seemed workable as long as fuel didn't get too expensive. Think RJ100's are thirsty aren't they ?

In a previous thread there was a quote by the Kiwijet spokesperson saying that operating costs were comparative to Fokker 100s. I rubbished that at the time suggesting that F100s were hardly the holy grail for operating costs and have never been used on the routes Kiwijet were planning.

It would be interesting to hear some feedback from DJ about initial impressions of their E-jets. Someone in here or the Australian thread may know.

GW

Quoting Mariner (Reply 135): Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): and the PVG discussion on here and now 100% broken that rule Then you should suggest that the thread - that you started so it could be discussed - be deleted.

Yes maybe that thread should be moved to the Non-Av cause very quickly the PVG thread turned the same way that this thread has. In all reality, thats where that thread now belongs....in non aviation! Obviously the choice to start a seperate PVG thread is the correct one, as its already nearly at 30 replys!

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 136): Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): An Ozjet and PMR manager have said on One News that the new buyer of Ozjet doesn't want to serve NZ, so that totally rules out DJ! yes but do u believe it. It's not DJ/PB saying it, but PMR & Ozjet. PMR might have been told to keep quiet & Ozjet might not exist anymore so who can be called a liar later?

If thats the case, and it is DJ, then wouldn't it have been easier for DJ to have Ozjet already serving PMR with flights, which would have allowed instant flights for DJ

Quoting 777ER (Reply 140): Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 136): Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): An Ozjet and PMR manager have said on One News that the new buyer of Ozjet doesn't want to serve NZ, so that totally rules out DJ! yes but do u believe it. It's not DJ/PB saying it, but PMR & Ozjet. PMR might have been told to keep quiet & Ozjet might not exist anymore so who can be called a liar later? If thats the case, and it is DJ, then wouldn't it have been easier for DJ to have Ozjet already serving PMR with flights, which would have allowed instant flights for DJ

Maybe the 733's etc. that Ozjet had earmarked haven't arrived yet & DJ doesn't want to use 737-700's or 738's & mybe not ready to start doing Trans-Tasman with ejets just yet.

Maybe they want to look like the big saviour for PMR & might be pinted this way, so locals around PMR support DJ/PB ?

Ozjet is the airline that had an all business class service in Australia that folded after a few months. They nearly had passengers swimming on the service to Norfolk Island earlier this year. At least they have not gone bust and left Palmerston North people stranded on the other side of the Tasman. There does not seem to be any sign of the 733 they said they were going to obtain for PMR services.

It is very unlikely that Virgin Blue or Pacific Blue will have anything to do with any airline that operates 146/RJ-100 types. Brett Godfrey is on record as describing it as a "God awful aircraft"


Sorry, folks in Palmerston North. You are going to have to organise a good bus service to Wellington Airport for your next holiday on the Gold Coast.

Quote: There are fears that at least 1,000 New Zealand travellers are being left in the lurch after a cut-price Australian airline abandoned its plan to fly in and out of Palmerston North. The airline is not talking but destinations were taken off Ozjet's website throughout the day on Thursday and its Australian call centre says flights from the city have been canned. In Palmerston North, the Ozjet hoardings are up but flights are not taking off. Airport worker Kathy Young is job-hunting. Another 12 employees at the duty free shop were laid off on Thursday because of the bombshell news that Ozjet will not be using the airport. "There was no wind of this happening at all," says Young. "We did training yesterday for going out onto the tarmac and that was just yesterday morning with an Ozjet engineer." Ozjet 737s were due to head out of Palmerston North up to six times a week, heading to Brisbane and Sydney. Each plane can carry just over 100 people and there were to be matching return flights. Six months ago when freedom air cancelled it's service oz-jet seemed this airport's saviour "There's another airline that's bought the company. That's what we're being told they don't have an interest in wanting to fly to New Zealand. So it seems it's a large corporate strategic issue," says Jono Naylor, Palmerston North mayor. Earlier on Thursday, Ozjet's website still showed Palmerston North on its flight schedule. Now it's only showing a service from Perth to Derby in Western Australia and the company's New Zealand phone number has been disconnected. The company's Melbourne headquarters confirmed to ONE News that the Palmerston North service has been cancelled and referred further inquiries to its public relations man, but he did not return calls. In Palmerston North they're counting the cost. "It means the business disappears because they were the only international flights out of here," says Gordon Edwards, duty free store owner. A few souvenirs and advertising are all that's left right now of Palmerston North's international airport status.

Source: TVNZ

"Aviation Record" reports that the purchaser of Ozjet is Our Airline (formerly Air Nauru), but says that this is not confirmed.

Also here is some good news:

Quote: March 26, 2008 - 7:53pm Dunedin airline Mainland Air will launch a new service between Dunedin and Invercargill next month. Mainland Air Business Manager, Daniel McMillan, says there's been a gap in the market since the Origin Pacific Air service to Invercargill ended. Mainland Air is planning to have four return flights per week on its 10-seater Piper Chieftan, or its 6-seater Seneca aircraft. The service is scheduled to begin on the 14th of April. Source: Channel 9 Dunedin http://www.ch9.co.nz/content/mainland-air-launch-new-service

Great news for Mainland air, this 'little' airline is going from Strength to Strength, With its Dunedin-Queenstown, Dunedin-Alexandra and Dunedin-Invercargill flights all launched within the last few months.

Might eventually see them order some Dash 8's 100's or 200's in a couple of years if these services do well.

Ozjet has confirmed that the trans-Tasman service to replace Freedom Air from Palmerston North has been cancelled, due to a takeover bid for the Australian airline.

Our Airline, previously Air Nauru, is bidding for Ozjet, which had proposed initially operating four days a week from Brisbane and Sydney to Palmerston North, starting on Monday.

"Ozjet announces with regret that due to recent merger talks which are nearing completion it is unable at this time to commence operations as envisaged on the 31st March, 2008," Ozjet chief executive Willie O'Neill said.

"The potential for trans-Tasman services and the opportunities that the Manawatu connection presented was first class and it regrettable that we can not move forward at this time."

All passengers booked on Ozjet services to and from Palmerston North will be fully refunded.

Article here.

"UK Office of Communications yesterday approved the use of mobile phones on UK-registered aircraft once approved by EASA and UK CAA. "If such approval has been secured, it will be a matter for individual airlines to judge whether there is consumer demand for these services," it said, adding that an onboard communications system may be switched on by cabin crew once the aircraft reaches 3,000 m."


Whether some people like it or not, phones in the air will be a reality in Australia, on Emirates and now on flights in Europe (subject to approval by EASA and UK CAA.)

One scary thought - a letter in Flight International wondered if the BA 777 at Heathrow might have been brought down by someone using their mobile phone while no one was looking. Hope the 777 was not brought down by someone using a camera, trying to write a TR for airliners.net.

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 145): Great news for Mainland air, this 'little' airline is going from Strength to Strength, With its Dunedin-Queenstown, Dunedin-Alexandra and Dunedin-Invercargill flights all launched within the last few months. Might eventually see them order some Dash 8's 100's or 200's in a couple of years if these services do well. Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........

Mainland Air might order some A318s to do DUD-PER

Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): The same argument has been going backwards and forwards over and over and over again for the last two weeks and is going no where. Its pointless having an NZ aviation thread title if all were going to talk about is the PVG topic, which not everyone cares about or is interested in posting about! Thats why a PVG thread is excellent, as it enables the same arguments to go backwards and forwards and people interested in talking about it, can post there, while it leaves other members who are more interested in talking about new things in this thread. It seems the new PVG thread is getting more support then others who don't want it.

I just don't like you determining what I can and can't talk about on this thread.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 147): Mainland Air might order some A318s to do DUD-PER

Where have you been??? thats already been announced!! alongside DUD-LAX, DUD-HKG-LHR.........  

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 149): Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 145): Great news for Mainland air, this 'little' airline is going from Strength to Strength, With its Dunedin-Queenstown, Dunedin-Alexandra and Dunedin-Invercargill flights all launched within the last few months. Might eventually see them order some Dash 8's 100's or 200's in a couple of years if these services do well.

Yeah I saw that article in the paper over the weekend, great to see them doing well, the article also said they were on the lookout for a larger and faster plane for the Dunedin - Queenstown flights to keep up with demand on the 25 minute flight.

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 149): Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 147): Mainland Air might order some A318s to do DUD-PER Where have you been??? thats already been announced!! alongside DUD-LAX, DUD-HKG-LHR.........

naa they got that covered with the A380 they just ordered : )

DUD-LHR non stop in an A340-500 with 80 business class seats. Might need a tech stop in Karratha on the way over, depending on winds. Central Otago wines.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 142): It is very unlikely that Virgin Blue or Pacific Blue will have anything to do with any airline that operates 146/RJ-100 types.

nobody operates 146/RJ's - it was in Kiwijets latest business plan only

Quoting Rongotai (Reply 144): "Aviation Record" reports that the purchaser of Ozjet is Our Airline (formerly Air Nauru), but says that this is not confirmed.

why would Our Airline need Ozjets AOC, they can fly anywhere they wnt with their current Australian AOC can't they ?

Still think it's DJ maybe in disguise who are buying Ozjet. DJ have sid they wanted an ULCC & Ozjet's AOC lets them do that without any effct on DJ ops if experiment didn't work.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 146): Ozjet has confirmed that the trans-Tasman service to replace Freedom Air from Palmerston North has been cancelled, due to a takeover bid for the Australian airline.

Surprise surprise...well not really. Never could quite imagine a small airline like that actually doing TT ops. I would love to see the look on the Palmy mayor and pmr airport ceo's face...priceless.  

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 143): "There's another airline that's bought the company. That's what we're being told they don't have an interest in wanting to fly to New Zealand. So it seems it's a large corporate strategic issue," says Jono Naylor, Palmerston North mayor.

Which airline would it be if not DJ ?

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 125): Why shouldn't the PVG discussion have its own thread? It is a subject that has generated a lot of discussion and this is worthwhile. But look at the NZ thread on 27 when Australia is only on 10. Perhaps this is because the Australians start more threads? They have a thread about V Australia, and Tiger, where we in NZ might have put all discussions in one thread.

The Aus forum works as above - any big discussion topics usually get their own thread so that a wider audience can read and participate. I dont think there is anything wrong with starting a new topic for the PVG issue and if it gets a wider audience, then surely that is a good thing?

Quoting ANstar (Reply 155): Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 125): Why shouldn't the PVG discussion have its own thread? It is a subject that has generated a lot of discussion and this is worthwhile. But look at the NZ thread on 27 when Australia is only on 10. Perhaps this is because the Australians start more threads? They have a thread about V Australia, and Tiger, where we in NZ might have put all discussions in one thread. The Aus forum works as above - any big discussion topics usually get their own thread so that a wider audience can read and participate. I dont think there is anything wrong with starting a new topic for the PVG issue and if it gets a wider audience, then surely that is a good thing?

think there are 2 many topics covered in nZ thread. Who wants to keep reading about NZ chinese based flight attendants.

All those who agree start another thread with a specific topic.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 148): Quoting 777ER (Reply 134): The same argument has been going backwards and forwards over and over and over again for the last two weeks and is going no where. Its pointless having an NZ aviation thread title if all were going to talk about is the PVG topic, which not everyone cares about or is interested in posting about! Thats why a PVG thread is excellent, as it enables the same arguments to go backwards and forwards and people interested in talking about it, can post there, while it leaves other members who are more interested in talking about new things in this thread. It seems the new PVG thread is getting more support then others who don't want it. I just don't like you determining what I can and can't talk about on this thread.

I'm not stopping you though! You can still talk about it in the seperate thread The only people here who can stop you is the mods, and I'm sure they would have acted sooner, rather then later

Quoting NZ747 (Reply 153): Surprise surprise...well not really. Never could quite imagine a small airline like that actually doing TT ops. I would love to see the look on the Palmy mayor and pmr airport ceo's face...priceless.

Kiwi was a smll airline & did TT ops !!!

Anyway ... from

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200803271705/2fbc7e98

it says below that Air Nauru (or should be Our Airline) in discussions but thought Our Airline had no money ?



Trans-Tasman service likely to be scrappedPosted at 5:05pm on 27 Mar 2008

The trans-Tasman airline service out of Palmerston North looks likely to be scrapped with news that Australian carrier Ozjet is the subject of a takeover bid.

Ozjet had planned to take over the service that has been vacated by Air New Zealand subsidiary Freedom Air this weekend.

The company participated in a function at the airport two weeks ago to launch the service.

However, Palmerston North Airport's chief executive Garry Goodman says Ozjet is in discussions with Air Nauru about a purchase offer. He says if that happens, the trans-Tasman service will not go ahead.

Mr Goodman says that would be very disappointing, but the airport is committed to finding yet another carrier to take over the route.

He says he hopes to have a definitive answer from Ozjet about the service on Thursday.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10500271

Not sure if it was discussed earlier, but this article says NZ is looking at requiring Visa's for Transfer PAX.

Quoting ANstar (Reply 159): Not sure if it was discussed earlier, but this article says NZ is looking at requiring Visa's for Transfer PAX.

what a joke !! As silly as former AC pax syd/hnl/yvr having to enter the USA in hnl to then get back on aircraft for YVR. No wonder AC went nonstop.

I guess a reason to not fly NZ OZ/USA. Really bad timing with V Aust about to announce.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 160): I guess a reason to not fly NZ OZ/USA. Really bad timing with V Aust about to announce.

Well it is ok for Aussies as we wont need a visa, but it would put an end to NZ doing Asia - South America connections (if they were thinking of it) as it owuld be easier for those pax to transfer at SYD with no visa restricitons

Quoting ANstar (Reply 161): Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 160): I guess a reason to not fly NZ OZ/USA. Really bad timing with V Aust about to announce. Well it is ok for Aussies as we wont need a visa, but it would put an end to NZ doing Asia - South America connections (if they were thinking of it) as it owuld be easier for those pax to transfer at SYD with no visa restricitons

yes but what about non-OZ passport holders who will now need Visa. All sounds too hard.

Ozjet make me so angry.

Not only have they left a thousand people blindsided, they have gone a long way to destroying the chance of PMR retaining any future international service. Having new service in place to follow on from Freedom was key for keeping MAF/Customs staff in place, and now thanks to Ozjet's chaotic and strategically bankrupt management this won't happen.

What kind of mismanaged cesspool of an airline throws a route-opening party two weeks before ceasing to trade on that route, and before a single flight was undertaken. A thousand forward bookings indicate that it can't have been all bad.

Ozjet made me nervous at the get-go, but I think I had come to embrace them as a serious carrier that was finally starting to grow-up as a company. It would seem I, and many others, were mislead.

Congratulations on Ozjet delivering another underarm.

ax

Hmmm - I predicted when Ozjet was announced as PMR's saviour that they wouldn't still be operating the route by Christmas time. I certainly didn't expect them to bail before they started. I do feel a bit sorry for the good citizens of PMR. I checked the Australian air transport stats a while back, and although I didn't do a rigorous analysis, at least superficially the loads out of PMR were not dissimilar to those out of HLZ and DUD - in fact on some sectors they carried more pax than the equivalent flights from the same port to DUD or HLZ. I realise that there are more criteria in providing an airline service than just plain bums-on-seats, but I did think that PMR was a little hard done by in comparison to HLZ and DUD. So it's sad that Ozjet is pulling out.

PMR Mayor and PN(I)A airport management seem determined to find a replacement, but I can't really see that DJ is going to be interested, and I hardly think it will be Tiger's first foray into the Tasman market. Oh well, what about Kiwijet . . . ? Actually, I'll be surprised if Kiwijet gets even as close to opening service in NZ as Ozjet did. So unless NZ does an about-face . . .

Quoting ANstar (Reply 159):

TG992 posted this either yesterday or the day before. I agree that this new decision will stop people flying here to get to oz/USA etc, just like LAX. A big mistake this will be IMHO.

Quoting Axio (Reply 163):

I don't think Ozjet can be blamed. They were going to plan, till the buy out announcement, so you can only blame the new airline. Though with the announcement of flights using B732s, I was wondering if they were for real!

Quoting Axio (Reply 163): What kind of mismanaged cesspool of an airline throws a route-opening party two weeks before ceasing to trade on that route, and before a single flight was undertaken. A thousand forward bookings indicate that it can't have been all bad.

A thousand forward bookings is the equivalent of 10 full 100-seater 732s. Not really enough to sustain a service. I think previous post showed that there were good forward booking on flights to Queensland, not so good to SYD. Would those good loads to QLD have been in the school holidays - so busy over a short intensive period, but quiet to QLD for the rest of the period.

Ozjet had also said they wanted to do a weekly Hamilton to Norfolk Island.

This is disappointing for Palmerston North, but at least the service has been pulled before it began. You would be less happy if the service disappeared while you were in the middle of your holiday. Maybe airliners.net people who live in SE Queensland would let you camp in their backyard if that happened?

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 152): Still think it's DJ maybe in disguise who are buying Ozjet

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 154): Which airline would it be if not DJ ?

Don't be REALDULL. I know you really convinced yourself that an airline with a highly efficient, modern fleet (DJ) would buy Ozjet's antiques but it never made any more sense than your belief that the Australian economy is in trouble.

Nauru Inc still has delusions of running a regional airline in Micronesia and Melanesia and they have money from Taiwan to do it on the cheap. And you can't get much cheaper than Ozjet.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 140): maybe that thread should be moved to the Non-Av cause very quickly the PVG thread turned the same way that this thread has. In all reality, thats where that thread now belongs....in non aviation!

777ER, I appreciate your work on this thread but the "Suggest Deletion" button came very close to being pressed when I read that absurd assertion. Civil aviation absolutely includes the crews, the bases and the routes.

You personally may be bored, or embarrassed that mariner has run rings around the rest of us on this topic, but the fact is that this is the most important issue ever raised in these threads and may have huge consequences for the airline, especially if anyone is investigating the ongoing rumours of kickbacks sustaining the Shanghai route.

I'm happy with a PVG thread (I wish you had called it the Air NZ China controversy thread though) and I hope you have read my rebuttal of your claim that it isn't fair of me to compare premium loads on next week's NZ-operated Shanghai flights with next week's NZ-operated Papeete flights.

For those of you too bored with China to have looked, 0 out of 48 Business Class seats to and from Tahiti remain unsold, while at least 29 out of 52 Business Class seats to and from Shanghai are unsold, even after the cancellations and consolidation of 5 flights into 3.

By the way, I enjoy REALDEAL and 777ER's contributions, so I hope no-one takes my tongue-in-cheek teasing too seriously.

[Edited 2008-03-27 03:32:24]

Air New Zealand launches environmental programmes

27 March 2008

Air New Zealand customers are now able to make an active contribution to environmental sustainability.

Chief Executive Officer Rob Fyfe announced today in Auckland the formation of an environment trust committed to funding research and development into alternative fuels and supporting projects that enhance New Zealand's clean, green reputation around the world.

Mr Fyfe also announced that alongside this trust, Air New Zealand customers would from today, have the option to fund the purchase of carbon credits to offset their travel through the company's website www.airnewzealand.co.nz.

The carbon offset facility will be made progressively available to customers outside New Zealand through the airline's international websites later in the year.

"When customers purchase a flight on Air New Zealand, they will now be able to make a conscious choice about whether or not to take positive steps toward helping our environment," says Mr Fyfe.

Examples of the cost of offsetting include:

Return Trip Distance CO2 Emissions Carbon Offset Cost


Auckland-Wellington 960km 133kg $4.50



Christchurch-Sydney 4,254km 402kg $13.70



Auckland-Los Angeles 20,976km 2.6tonnes $88.10




The first carbon credits that Air New Zealand has secured are Emission Reduction Units from TrustPower's Tararua windfarm. The project was awarded these Kyoto carbon credits as part of the Government's Projects to Reduce Emissions programme.

http://www.airnz.co.nz/aboutus/mediacentre/pressreleases/default.htm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 167):

Sorry forgot NZ still operated an AKL-PPT service. I did a flight search for AKL-PPT-AKL, and found seats from $1344 - $1399 in economy and Business between $2639 - $2839, but it appears Airpoints dollars has been removed for purchasing these tickets

Quoting Koruman (Reply 167): You personally may be bored, or embarrassed that mariner has run rings around the rest of us on this topic, but the fact is that this is the most important issue ever raised in these threads and may have huge consequences for the airline, especially if anyone is investigating the ongoing rumours of kickbacks sustaining the Shanghai route.

Just because Mariner has been the loudest and posted virtually every 2nd or 3rd thread doesn't mean he's run rings around the rest of us... unless of course you think its a circus act...in which case I think some of his postings come close to that...  
Please continue this topic in the actual thread rather than continuing it here in this one.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 167): would buy Ozjet's antiques but it never made any more sense than your belief that the Australian economy is in trouble.

no one wants their old 732 aircraft only their AOC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting Koruman (Reply 167): Australian economy is in trouble

jobs just took a 2.5% drop-it's started !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting Koruman (Reply 167): Nauru Inc still has delusions of running a regional airline in Micronesia and Melanesia and they have money from Taiwan to do it on the cheap. And you can't get much cheaper than Ozjet.

why would they want another AOC ?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 168): Air New Zealand launches environmental programmes

what load of garbage to make more money.

It still is a long way from being established that there is even global warming. Many experts say there is global cooling.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 171): what load of garbage to make more money. It still is a long way from being established that there is even global warming. Many experts say there is global cooling

Yes that's my opinion also. I remain unconvinced that current climatical extremes are anything more than the natural cyclical nature of the earth over millennia.

In saying that, the NZ government will love anything of a 'feel good' nature like carbon offsets.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 169): I did a flight search for AKL-PPT-AKL, and found seats from $1344 - $1399 in economy and Business between $2639 - $2839, but it appears Airpoints dollars has been removed for purchasing these tickets

My friend, you have found the Air Tahiti Nui-operated codeshares, where the Airpoints program is not applicable.

I'm not trying to hype up PPT yet again, just showing that when you compare AKL-PVG with AKL-PPT for the same calendar period the premium class loads on the China routes are a trainwreck.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 171): It still is a long way from being established that there is even global warming. Many experts say there is global cooling.

Quoting GarethW (Reply 172): Yes that's my opinion also. I remain unconvinced that current climatical extremes are anything more than the natural cyclical nature of the earth over millennia.

I don't want to start another debate about global warming, though my own views are quite clear and have been discussed on other threads. But whether or not global warming is occurring, the present realpolitik is that there is a clear majority in the scientific community that it is occurring, and no government can stand outside of that without putting itself in a great deal of difficulty internationally. In that context, all businesses (not just the airline business) are going to have to find creative ways of addressing their carbon footprint. And in that context, I welcome NZ's foray into that area - and into the area of biofuels.

Of course there will always be the cynics and the mockers when companies take steps that some will think are self-serving and not "pure" in motive. But that's exactly what business is and does - acting in what it believes are the interests of its shareholders. In this context, why would anyone be surprised that a few companies might want to seize the initiative and try to do something creative to meet the situation?

I don't disrespect the views of the climate change cynics (of which there are many, many on A-net). But for better or worse, instead of arguing about it interminably, at some point we have to decide which way we're going, and we're heading in a direction indicated by a substantial majority of scientists, who agree that there's a serious problem. Airlines can embrace this and gain some credibility or can reject it and become pariahs. I reckon that's a simple, and ultimately pragmatic choice.

[Edited 2008-03-27 06:02:48]

Quoting Rwy21 (Reply 150): Yeah I saw that article in the paper over the weekend, great to see them doing well, the article also said they were on the lookout for a larger and faster plane for the Dunedin - Queenstown flights to keep up with demand on the 25 minute flight.

Yeah its great, its handy having the flight though. Especially alot of people having holiday homes etc and Mainland air isnt charging the earth for the flight either.

It could work also, with them interlining flights with Pac Blue if they fly TT from DUD? but then they will fly domestically anyway so wont happen.

Actually, the perfect aircraft could be a SAAB 360??, a Beech 1900 isnt too much bigger than what they have now and a Dash 8 100 is a little to big for them.

Add 2 SAAB's they could fly DUD-CHC, DUD-INV and DUD-ZQN. Dunedinites seem to support local business.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 151): DUD-LHR non stop in an A340-500 with 80 business class seats. Might need a tech stop in Karratha on the way over, depending on winds. Central Otago wines.

  The A340 would struggle on both DUD and KTA runways!!



Ozjoke as usual promises services that don't eventuate. I remember when they started up, Perth was to get SYD and MEL services then they went down the gurgler. Then they wrote to the local shire here about renting space at the airport and going on about servicing KTA, apparently all was good just waiting for them to announce a start date....well im still waiting! Hate to know who else they were starting services for.

They could have at least given some notice or issued a media release instead of hiding. They call themselves an airline? they are a joke.

They didn't even have a 733 did they? so that was prob half the problem. Didnt want to spend some money to make some money.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 173): Quoting 777ER (Reply 169): I did a flight search for AKL-PPT-AKL, and found seats from $1344 - $1399 in economy and Business between $2639 - $2839, but it appears Airpoints dollars has been removed for purchasing these tickets My friend, you have found the Air Tahiti Nui-operated codeshares, where the Airpoints program is not applicable.

Those flights were operated by B763s, and not A340s

OzJet exit may cost P North airport loss of status



A decision by Australian budget airline OzJet to pull out of Palmerston North has put the city airport's international status in danger.


Palmerston North Airport's bid to keep its international status could be in danger after OzJet's last-minute decision to pull out of the city.


A takeover bid for the Australian airline, by Our Airline, has scuppered plans for the service, which was due to start on Monday.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4454151a13.html

Greens slam transit visa rule


A new transit visa requirement has been described by the Green Party as "bureaucracy gone mad".


Immigration Minister Clayton Cosgrove announced yesterday that from tomorrow transit visas will be needed for all travel via New Zealand except for people from countries which have visa-free agreements.

Transit visas are for people who will be in the country for less than 24 hours and will not leave the transit area of the airport.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4453679a11.html

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 171): what load of garbage to make more money.

I think that it is a decision that is made in line with the clean green image of NZ that is advertised around the world, the best part is that it is optional.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 171): It still is a long way from being established that there is even global warming. Many experts say there is global cooling.

No matter what you believe I'm sure everyone agrees that if we screw up this planet, there is no fall back position, and that means the end of us. Some time ago the consensus of scientists was that disease and illness was caused by failure to adhere to religious principals, now days we believe different. No matter if the scientists are right or wrong, I don't think we should stick our heads in the sand when the planet is a stake. In the scheme of things what's the harm in trying to reduce out impact on this planet?

Quoting Knid (Reply 178): No matter if the scientists are right or wrong, I don't think we should stick our heads in the sand when the planet is a stake. In the scheme of things what's the harm in trying to reduce out impact on this planet?

Exactly!

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 174): that there is a clear majority in the scientific community that it is occurring,

who have a vested interst in saying that. I don't think there is a clear majority on a vocal minority or it might be 50/50 as there income depends on spurting out this garbage. I mean the UN group IAAC or something similar claims many scientists who don't want a bar of what they have to say.

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 175): They didn't even have a 733 did they? so that was prob half the problem. Didnt want to spend some money to make some money.

Maybe they didn't have the funds to finalise delivery ?

Quoting Knid (Reply 178): No matter if the scientists are right or wrong, I don't think we should stick our heads in the sand when the planet is a stake. In the scheme of things what's the harm in trying to reduce out impact on this planet?

agreed so we clean up the planet. Doesn't mean we have to have dodgy carbon trading schemes which don't address pollution.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 180): Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 174): that there is a clear majority in the scientific community that it is occurring, who have a vested interst in saying that. I don't think there is a clear majority on a vocal minority or it might be 50/50 as there income depends on spurting out this garbage. I mean the UN group IAAC or something similar claims many scientists who don't want a bar of what they have to say.

I think you mean the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), and I believe there is now close to a global scientific consensus, though with a few very loud stand-outs, some of whom have been forced to acknowledge that they take money from the oil companies. Now if that's not a vested interest, I don't know what is. I do take issue, though, with people dismissing the arguments as "garbage" without having any critical analysis of the data on which it's based. What are your qualifications for expressing an opinion so strongly?

My fundamental point is that it doesn't really matter whether the majority of scientists are right or wrong. Realistically and pragmatically, there is only one game in town, and that is a groundswell in the direction of taking some kind of action as a planet, not least as a precaution. The pragmatic business will recognise this and will seek to create a niche for itself as a leader, to make an opportunity out of a challenge. As Knid suggested, what's the harm, in reducing our impact on the planet, anyway? I just find it rather hard to swallow that businesses, including airlines, are still slagged off in this day and age for trying to be "green". They deserve our support, irrespective of their motivations.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 181): I think you mean the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), and I believe there is now close to a global scientific consensus

says who the IPCC - this is the problem, too many people have a vested interest in saying whatever as the job depends on it.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 181): My fundamental point is that it doesn't really matter whether the majority of scientists are right or wrong. Realistically and pragmatically, there is only one game in town,

2 actually, those for & those against.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 181): what's the harm, in reducing our impact on the planet, anyway? I just find it rather hard to swallow that businesses, including airlines, are still slagged off in this day and age for trying to be "green". They deserve our support, irrespective of their motivations.

no harm but cleaning up their act & dodgy carbon trading schemes r 2 different things entirely.

I'm the biggest greeny out there, don't drive a big gas guzzling tanks, turn off the lights when don't need them, don't make trip in car when could walk, but don't believe a lot of rubbish about greenhouse gases causing the atmosphere to warm up.

VESTED INTERESTS-we all know the U.N. & most govt & semi govt organisations are useles at doing anything. Most offer very cushy jobs with low stress where employees can generally cruise thru life & get paid for doing very little.

Scientists receive grants to do studies & unfortunately these tend to be biased to the opinions of those providing the money. It works both ways.

Have read extensively on both sides of argument, some say warming some say cooling. Weather patterns change over hundreds of years not a few years. Unfortunately to get headlines, people have to make outragous claims to be even heard these days. Can't let the truth get in the way.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 182): I'm the biggest greeny out there, don't drive a big gas guzzling tanks, turn off the lights when don't need them, don't make trip in car when could walk, but don't believe a lot of rubbish about greenhouse gases causing the atmosphere to warm up.

Im with you on that. I won't keep rabbiting on about climate change as we could once again slip into an abyss similar to the PVG crew thing. God forbid.

My only comment is that aviation comtributes such a small % of the world's carbon emissions yet is constantly in the gun from the media, government and environmental groups in particular. I'm all for the simple measures we all take at home as REALDEAL alluded to. Im also a car-freak and think more should be done to encourage new generation diesel vehicles etc because while being environmentally friendlier, can be as good, if not a better drive than petrol driven equivalents.

GW

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 182): VESTED INTERESTS-we all know the U.N. & most govt & semi govt organisations are useles at doing anything. Most offer very cushy jobs with low stress where employees can generally cruise thru life & get paid for doing very little.

Oh, it's so easy just to dismiss the arguments you disagree with by writing off the proponents with huge generalisations like this! I'm not even going to rise to the bait . . .

I think you've missed my fundamental point, though: this is not about global warming, it's about NZ being a pragmatic business and steering a course that's going to place the airline in the best possible position for the future. NZ has clearly identified that its carbon footprint is going to be a significant business risk in the future, and is taking active steps now to try to mitigate that, and to create an image for the airline, through the carbon offsets programme and the investigations into biofuel use, that will place it at the "green" end of the PR spectrum. Now as a business decision, I think that's quite savvy, given that NZ is a loooong way from its major international markets, and this is not an issue that's going to go away any time soon.

So let me pose the question of you: Leave aside the issue of global warming per se, and just focus on the business issue. Do we want NZ to be a leader and innovator in this inevitable march toward the greening of aviation, or do we want it to be seen as one of the pariahs that end up being dragged kicking and screaming into conformity with what will become globally-accepted norms for airline operations?

For myself, I think the answer is clear. There's a lot more to be gained by being a leader and an innovator than there is by being a pariah. That's why I say that there isn't really a choice, irrespective of your views on global warming.

Does anyone know if Air NZ is sending their metal to Afghaistan again in 2 weeks?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 170): Just because Mariner has been the loudest and posted virtually every 2nd or 3rd thread doesn't mean he's run rings around the rest of us... unless of course you think its a circus act...in which case I think some of his postings come close to that... Yeah sure Please continue this topic in the actual thread rather than continuing it here in this one.

Hmmmm you can't debate a point so you resort to making a personal comment. Often the sign on a weak argument when that happens. Again what gives you the right to say what can and can't be discussed in this thread?

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 158): Kiwi was a smll airline & did TT ops !!!

Yeah, and look how well they did...  

Quoting 777ER (Reply 165): Though with the announcement of flights using B732s, I was wondering if they were for real!

They still work, remember Air NZ used to operate them on TT and PI ops back in the day. They have a very high cost per seat mile compared to the later B737's and these days with rising fuel costs that's pretty much the money buster.

Quoting Axio (Reply 163): Not only have they left a thousand people blindsided, they have gone a long way to destroying the chance of PMR retaining any future international service.

Having lived in palmy for 3 years up until recently, I think palmy will be ok without TT services. While living there I never once took freedom to aussie or Fiji. I always just went via Auckland and found Air NZ's economy fares from PMR-AKL-XXX pretty much the same price if not cheaper than Freedoms direct flights. If Freedom couldn't make it work, then how could a barely heard of airline from across the pond do any better? I wonder for how long Ozjet has known about their takeover and kept PMR in the dark?

Otago Daily Times had front page coverage of change over for Dunedin Trans Tasman services. Starting next week we will have four times weekly to BNE and three times weekly to SYD. Lead in fares will be $30 higher than Freedom's lead in fares - AirNZ say that more seats will be available at the lead in level than were available on Freedom. MEL services will be operated twice weekly between Nov 08 and Mar 09.

We have been told that AirNZ is pleased with DUDBNE services, but we have been told use it or lose it for the DUDSYD flights. AirNZ wants average loads of at least 75% for each season.

For the extra money, DUD passengers will now get AirNZ inflight service, with snacks and IFE. Possibly the most important is that we can do connections onto other airlines. If the timing works, I think we could use NZ DUDSYD and get onto a SQ A380. That will happen when the SQ A380 departs from SYD in the evening.

Local exporters are disappointed that AirNZ will not carry freight on ex DUD flights. I think this will be because DUD airport is not yet equipped to handle fresh produce. So Otago and Southland produce will still fly through CHC.

If AirNZ and Qantas had been allowed to go through with the Joint Service Proposal, these flights would have QF numbers on them, and Qantas could also sell them through their world wide network. Codesharing does benefit some smaller ports.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 188): We have been told that AirNZ is pleased with DUDBNE services, but we have been told use it or lose it for the DUDSYD flights. AirNZ wants average loads of at least 75% for each season.

How valid is this statement considering DJ are mulling DUD. I'd be pretty sure that NZ would stay should DJ arrive regardless of loads.

I read the same thing in the ODT, currently NZ are getting loads around the 78% mark for Brisbane flights and there was no figure for the SYD flights, but it also aluded to the fact that MEL flights will continue next season (NOV-MAR)

But there will be 3x SYD flights a weeks (one more than SJ) so obviously its doing alright and 4 x BNE flights a week from DUD and when MEL is operating 2 flights a week.

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 190): But there will be 3x SYD flights a weeks (one more than SJ) so obviously its doing alright and 4 x BNE flights a week from DUD and when MEL is operating 2 flights a week.

SYD flights are 3x weekly year-round, but BNE flights reduce from 4x weekly to 3x weekly in the winter, and then increase again in the spring to 4x weekly.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 186): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 170): Just because Mariner has been the loudest and posted virtually every 2nd or 3rd thread doesn't mean he's run rings around the rest of us... unless of course you think its a circus act...in which case I think some of his postings come close to that... Yeah sure Please continue this topic in the actual thread rather than continuing it here in this one. Hmmmm you can't debate a point so you resort to making a personal comment. Often the sign on a weak argument when that happens. Again what gives you the right to say what can and can't be discussed in this thread?

Merely making an observation about who is being the loudest and responding to a comment made.
You have just done yourself exactly what your comment was... making a personal comment and telling me what I can or can't say... I believe the word for that is 'hypocrisy'...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 192): Merely making an observation about who is being the loudest and responding to a comment made. You have just done yourself exactly what your comment was... making a personal comment and telling me what I can or can't say... I believe the word for that is 'hypocrisy'...

How have I done that? I said when you resort to a personal attack it shows the weakness of your argument. How is that comment an attack on you personally? These forums have rules - one I believe is not making personal attacks. I don't believe that is me telling you what you can or can't say?

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 193): Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 192): Merely making an observation about who is being the loudest and responding to a comment made. You have just done yourself exactly what your comment was... making a personal comment and telling me what I can or can't say... I believe the word for that is 'hypocrisy'... How have I done that? I said when you resort to a personal attack it shows the weakness of your argument. How is that comment an attack on you personally? These forums have rules - one I believe is not making personal attacks. I don't believe that is me telling you what you can or can't say?

and like I said I was responding to a comment made about Mariner running rings or something like that... and making an observation about how many posts he was making... its the same in any group conversation that just because somebody is mouthing off, talking the most or the loudest...it doesn't mean that they are right. So I don't see how that is a personal attack.
However your comment that people are 'weak' or show 'weakness' could be seen as getting personal so far as the forum rules are concerned... personally I don't mind you can say what you like as it is a public forum... provided your argument makes sense, is logical, and for me personally I'm not too fond of PC-brigade comments...

If the PVG crew don't like the job then they shouldn't have applied for it in the first place, or they should quit... There are millions of Chinese who would love to have their job. So long as they are only used on flights to China then I don't see other crew having a problem... if however NZ gets them flying other routes then it is purely job outsourcing to China which is something I don't think any kiwi wants to see happen with Air NZ.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 191): SYD flights are 3x weekly year-round, but BNE flights reduce from 4x weekly to 3x weekly in the winter, and then increase again in the spring to 4x weekly.

DUDBNE will be 4 x weekly during winter, starting next week. For some reason, one of the weekly flights departs DUD five minutes earlier than the other flights. AirNZ Scheduling Department must have a reason for this.

This would be a good point to notice, as we have done before that a 75% load in a 150 seater A320 would be 114, which would be more than the capacity of an E-190 (102 seats in DJ configuration.) If E-190s were around, DUD might even keep the MEL service. And, well if E-190s were around, perhaps PMR would still have some service over the Tasman.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 189): How valid is this statement considering DJ are mulling DUD. I'd be pretty sure that NZ would stay should DJ arrive regardless of loads.

DJ are still keeping us all waiting on a number of announcements, and services to DUD is one of those announcements. We think we would probably get Pacific Blue domestic services first. If PB does give us Trans Tasman, will they duplicate the one route that does really well for AirNZ out of DUD - they might only give us BNE. Will they give us MEL, because AirNZ does not do that one, or will they find it just as hard to make that route work as AirNZ does? My tip is that MELDUD will be operated by Tiger in 2009.

Quoting Jamie86 (Reply 185): Does anyone know if Air NZ is sending their metal to Afghaistan again in 2 weeks?

Where did that come from Jamie? There is nothing loaded in the schedule to suggest ANY metal going near Afghanistan.

NZ1

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 194): If the PVG crew don't like the job then they shouldn't have applied for it in the first place, or they should quit..

Oh. So it can be discussed in this thread again?

I was was sticking to the rules laid down by 777ER.  

mariner

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 189): How valid is this statement considering DJ are mulling DUD. I'd be pretty sure that NZ would stay should DJ arrive regardless of loads.

just heard ... from July PB will do domestic services to both IVC & DUD !!!

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 188): Otago Daily Times had front page coverage of change over for Dunedin Trans Tasman services. Starting next week we will have four times weekly to BNE and three times weekly to SYD. Lead in fares will be $30 higher than Freedom's lead in fares - AirNZ say that more seats will be available at the lead in level than were available on Freedom. MEL services will be operated twice weekly between Nov 08 and Mar 09.

This is NOT news. Could have told you this days after NZ announced "taking over" SJ flights.

Why on earth would it be on front page ? Maybe loads are ordinary with not only the price increase, but lack of SJ specials.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 195): DUDBNE will be 4 x weekly during winter, starting next week.

Not between June and October, when it reduces to 3x weekly

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 195): This would be a good point to notice, as we have done before that a 75% load in a 150 seater A320 would be 114, which would be more than the capacity of an E-190 (102 seats in DJ configuration.) If E-190s were around, DUD might even keep the MEL service. And, well if E-190s were around, perhaps PMR would still have some service over the Tasman.

This is one of the reasons why I hope that NZ does look at a smaller jet. The prospect of daily frequencies (the minimum for a serious route) from DUD or HLZ with A320s must be many years away. But with an E190 . . .

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 198): Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 189): How valid is this statement considering DJ are mulling DUD. I'd be pretty sure that NZ would stay should DJ arrive regardless of loads. just heard ... from July PB will do domestic services to both IVC & DUD !!!

thinking about it, doesn't it seem strange that ZQN hasn't been mentioned at all ?

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 200): But with an E190 . . .

Then NZ and DJ can expand in many ways in both domestic and TT routes. Domestic could see Ejets launching ZQN-ROT. WLG-ZQN could change from ATR to Ejet, and maybe operate yearly

Quoting 777ER (Reply 202): Then NZ and DJ can expand in many ways in both domestic and TT routes. Domestic could see Ejets launching ZQN-ROT. WLG-ZQN could change from ATR to Ejet, and maybe operate yearly

DJ has aircraft now. If NZ order e-jets now, how long would it be before 1st delivery ?

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 201): Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 198): Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 189): How valid is this statement considering DJ are mulling DUD. I'd be pretty sure that NZ would stay should DJ arrive regardless of loads. just heard ... from July PB will do domestic services to both IVC & DUD !!! thinking about it, doesn't it seem strange that ZQN hasn't been mentioned at all ?

As I said in the other thread, I'm not buying DJ going to IVC. DJ has said in the public view that either DUD or IVC would get DJ servides, and not both. I doubt DJ want to risk being accused of lying, especially with their recent bashing in the media here about their delays.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 203): If NZ order e-jets now, how long would it be before 1st delivery ?

I would say from around January/February 2009, judging from when DJ first ordered till when they first received.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 204): As I said in the other thread, I'm not buying DJ going to IVC. DJ has said in the public view that either DUD or IVC would get DJ servides, and not both. I doubt DJ want to risk being accused of lying, especially with their recent bashing in the media here about their delays.

anyway due to bew announced officailly in next day or 2.

Maybe our source was drunk being late Fri.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 198): Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 188): Otago Daily Times had front page coverage of change over for Dunedin Trans Tasman services. Starting next week we will have four times weekly to BNE and three times weekly to SYD. Lead in fares will be $30 higher than Freedom's lead in fares - AirNZ say that more seats will be available at the lead in level than were available on Freedom. MEL services will be operated twice weekly between Nov 08 and Mar 09. This is NOT news. Could have told you this days after NZ announced "taking over" SJ flights. Why on earth would it be on front page ? Maybe loads are ordinary with not only the price increase, but lack of SJ specials.

Yes, we did know on the day of the announcement last year, but I was summarising the report in today's paper. It was the lead story on the front page, with the reporter taking the line that it was a bittersweet moment for Dunedin, with the lead in price going up $30. People could have guessed that by comparing fares from DUD to Aus on Freedom, with CHC to Aus on AirNZ, where the AirNZ fare is priced to include the sandwich/coffee and episode of Dancing with the Stars. The SJ specials never were very special out of DUD.

AirNZ does not even have to worry about E-Jets for the moment. The 737-300s that Freedom used over the Tasman are still in the fleet, and they still fly to Australia as backups sometimes. If these aircraft are still in EROPS configuration they could still do the Tasman out of the smaller cities. If A320s breakeven out of Dunedin is 75% seats filled, a 733 would break even with a similar percentage. A service that is marginal on a bigger plane might be acceptable on a 733.

Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 205): Maybe our source was drunk being late Fri.

Depends on the time you heard!

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=12215


You will have seen on other threads that the Mitsubishi RJ has received a launch order from ANA for up to 25 planes. So this new type with 90 seats, and fuel consumption 40% less than a 737-500 will be available in 2013. Will this aircraft be the right size for operations in NZ?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 204): As I said in the other thread, I'm not buying DJ going to IVC. DJ has said in the public view that either DUD or IVC would get DJ servides, and not both. I doubt DJ want to risk being accused of lying, especially with their recent bashing in the media here about their delays.

It would be pretty hard for the media to beat up DJ for serving too many cities! Tho, I agree both is unlikely.

I've booked on SQ for BLR-AKL return, and have a separate side ticket for AKL-WLG return on NZ (T class). Would the NZ folks be able to do a through check-in to BLR on my return from WLG? Or at least tag my bag all the way through? Or would I need to arrive at AKL, retrieve my bag, lug them to the check-in desk for SQ and then check them in again?

Itinerary details are at: http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?p=37431 - if that's of any help. Thanks in advance for your help with this...

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 206): The SJ specials never were very special out of DUD.

Got down to AUD$340 return inc taxes/charges BNE/DUD/BNE at one stage for winter travel & $360 was not uncommon.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 210):

If all the flights are operated by Star carriers all the way then yes the bags can be tagged all the way

New Zealand Aviation Thread #28 (by 777ER Mar 28 2008 in Civil Aviation)