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Topic: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-20 13:18:58 and read 11770 times.

Looks like Delta's planned daily service to Paris Orly is not happening. The flight is showing zero availability in Amadeus.

This is the fourth trans-Atlantic route that Delta won't start this summer as planned, joining Atlanta-Edinburgh, JFK-Lagos (delayed until December), and JFK-Dakar-Nairobi (delayed until December due to economic conditions in Kenya).

[Edited 2008-03-20 13:20:39]

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: AznMadSci
Posted 2008-03-20 13:24:29 and read 11736 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Looks like Delta's planned daily service to Paris Orly is not happening. The flight is showing zero availability in Amadeus.

Was this flight previously bookable?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Lear777
Posted 2008-03-20 13:27:54 and read 11697 times.

Any word on the status of JFK-LYS?

Brian

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Panamair
Posted 2008-03-20 13:30:41 and read 11678 times.



Quoting Lear777 (Reply 2):
Any word on the status of JFK-LYS?

OK so far.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-20 13:31:57 and read 11659 times.

CDGSLC shouldn't be far behind depending on whether or not the cost of pride is greater than the cost of fuel these days Wink

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-20 13:33:12 and read 11660 times.

Weird, it looked like a good move for DL. A direct link to JFK for all the southern Paris suburbs could very well be successful, especially with AF's backing. But how happy are they (AF)? I would say if the rumor turns out to be more than a rumor, the route was killed by AF.

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 2):
Any word on the status of JFK-LYS?

I hope it is not on jeopardy. But there sure seems to be a bad series for new TATL flights!

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2008-03-20 13:37:33 and read 11594 times.

what about GEO?? Does anyone still anticipate DL flying this route from JFK??

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-20 13:40:45 and read 11569 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 6):
what about GEO?? Does anyone still anticipate DL flying this route from JFK??

I think so. Very high-fare market, relatively short length. Fares on JFK-GEO during the summer can be upwards of $800 easily. Even FLL-GEO can command fares that high during peak travel.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: FFlyer
Posted 2008-03-20 13:41:23 and read 11548 times.



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 5):
But how happy are they (AF)? I would say if the rumor turns out to be more than a rumor, the route was killed by AF.

Aren't DL and AF sharing revenue and profits of all their TATL flights, so it shouldn't matter to AF?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Orion737
Posted 2008-03-20 13:46:56 and read 11508 times.

I thought DL was desperate to get more JFK long hauls going? like really desperate to do a CO, yet they keep postponing and or cancelling. very dissappointed with their delay to the African network. I am begining to wonder whether it will ever happen or if DL will always find a reason, political instability etc to not make Lagos or Nairobi.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-20 13:54:04 and read 11449 times.



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
I am begining to wonder whether it will ever happen or if DL will always find a reason, political instability etc to not make Lagos or Nairobi.

Don't forget, though, Delta already flies to Lagos, from Atlanta. Maybe doubling the capacity, when they will soon have a monopoly on USA-Nigeria, wasn't the smartest thing to do right now.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: NYCAAer
Posted 2008-03-20 16:30:39 and read 11080 times.

Interesting move. I would think DL would do well out of ORY. I remember when we served ORY at at AA and when we were forced to switch to CDG by the French authorities, some people were disappointed. They liked the shorter drive time to Paris and the convenience of the airport itself.

I guess JFK-ORY will be left to BA's Open Skies and EWR-ORY to L'Avion.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Skyteam10001
Posted 2008-03-21 00:53:06 and read 10421 times.

I feel the JFK-ORY DL flight was an answer to the possible threat of BA flying JFK-ORY.

Now that BA has announced they will fly from CDG to JFK, I am guessing AF & DL don't feel they need to add this flightanymore. Also maybe the advance bookings were not that good.

L'Avion will surely be happy about that !

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Haggis79
Posted 2008-03-21 01:05:11 and read 10370 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
CDGSLC shouldn't be far behind depending on whether or not the cost of pride is greater than the cost of fuel these days

not so sure about that.... this route is going to be highly subsidized for the first two years, IIRC....

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-03-21 01:21:34 and read 10301 times.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 6):
what about GEO?? Does anyone still anticipate DL flying this route from JFK??

GEO is a definate go. Actually, it was announced last week that it will start a month earlier.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/primenewswire/138007.htm

[Edited 2008-03-21 01:22:53]

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-03-21 01:29:53 and read 10257 times.



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):

This was one of my predictions in Delta: 'Comprehensive' Changes Ahead (by Flynavy Mar 15 2008 in Civil Aviation). I figured the international push would slow a bit. I also don't think this is the end of it. some of these routes that are doing "so-so" to not so stellar may be held off temporarily.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2008-03-21 05:52:08 and read 9221 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

Don't forget, though, Delta already flies to Lagos, from Atlanta. Maybe doubling the capacity, when they will soon have a monopoly on USA-Nigeria, wasn't the smartest thing to do right now.

It would be idiotic not to start the JFK-LOS route in a timely manner, with NAA leaving, and simply cede that market to the European airlines. No one but the most price sensitive wants to backtrack from the Northeast US to Atlanta. They can name their price.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-21 06:01:14 and read 9170 times.



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 13):
not so sure about that.... this route is going to be highly subsidized for the first two years, IIRC....

no subsidies but all DL and AF flights between North America and France, including JFK-ORY will/would have been joint venture flights which means DL and AF share profits and losses. DL's decision to pull JFK-ORY is not its own but had to have been made with AF.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 18):
No one but the most price sensitive wants to backtrack from the Northeast US to Atlanta

connecting in ATL from anywhere in the US is still far faster than connecting in Europe.

The overarching theme in DL's international pullback of expansion is that there is a much greater desire to allow the last series of flights to ramp up before adding another round of expansion. While some new routes were going to launch just 6 months after other routes to the same country, the routes that will remain are ones that are either new to DL or the most recently added route has been around for more than a year. ie. JFK-LOS is now increasing in frequency; JFK-DKR-CPT is being added after ATL-DKR-JNB is well established; JFK-TLV is being added after ATL-TLV is well established.... but ATL-EDI or JFK-LOS is not being launched at the same time another route from the opposite gateways (JFK-EDI or ATL-LOS) is still ramping up. DL's international strategy is clearly to minimize risk and eliminate direct internal gateway competition (including other DL and AF NYC-PAR flights) rather than pull back from new markets other than to places like NBO where the market is just not there right now.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2008-03-21 06:24:58 and read 8993 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
connecting in ATL from anywhere in the US is still far faster than connecting in Europe.

And then we have the added issue that this is Delta Air Lines versus... The Euros also fly to Abuja and Port Harcourt.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-21 06:51:29 and read 8809 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Looks like Delta's planned daily service to Paris Orly is not happening. The flight is showing zero availability in Amadeus.

This is the fourth trans-Atlantic route that Delta won't start this summer as planned, joining Atlanta-Edinburgh, JFK-Lagos (delayed until December), and JFK-Dakar-Nairobi (delayed until December due to economic conditions in Kenya).

I just checked on our employee/retiree travelnet (which is connected to Deltamatic) and the flight shows still operating in June on Mon/Tue/Wed/Th/Sat. It shows overbooked by at least 50, everyday so maybe that's why Amadeus doesn't show any availability.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-03-21 07:26:16 and read 8603 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 21):
I just checked on our employee/retiree travelnet (which is connected to Deltamatic) and the flight shows still operating in June on Mon/Tue/Wed/Th/Sat. It shows overbooked by at least 50, everyday so maybe that's why Amadeus doesn't show any availability.

Had my brother pull it up on DeltaNet also and he's saying the same thing...

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-21 07:31:26 and read 8570 times.



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 13):
not so sure about that.... this route is going to be highly subsidized for the first two years, IIRC....

That's the only thing that'll keep it going.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
The overarching theme in DL's international pullback of expansion is that there is a much greater desire to allow the last series of flights to ramp up before adding another round of expansion

The overarching theme is that DL has thrown every international-capable aircraft it has at the wall hoping it would stick, and naturally a good percentage of those don't make money. The low hanging fruit are long gone and their next-best adds are really risky, nevermind oil at $110/barrel.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: LongHauler
Posted 2008-03-21 08:16:26 and read 8335 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 21):
Deltamatic

Wow, is it still called Deltamatic?
That is so retro/cool!

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-21 08:18:34 and read 8322 times.

What worries me about the SLC-CDG flight is whether, midsummer, they may have to limit seats because of heavy fuel loads, altitude and high heat, depending on what time of the day the flight leaves. I see it leaves at 1700 hrs.....the temps can still be quite high at that time.

DL might do okay on that flight if they can make a deal with the LDS church to fly their missionaries to Europe.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: ORDagent
Posted 2008-03-21 10:00:49 and read 7816 times.

I think SLC-CDG will at least break even. There are so many connection possibilities on both sides of the flight. The whole of the southwest U.S. is part of the SLC catchment area and then AF offers a huge connection network. Of course if the dollar keeps on sinking people will avoid leaving the country as it is getting progressively more expensive. I have seen my level of international bookings start shrinking.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-21 10:03:46 and read 7781 times.



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 24):
Wow, is it still called Deltamatic?
That is so retro/cool!

Well, it USED to be! I've been out of the loop long enough that the name may have been changed.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Gokmengs
Posted 2008-03-21 11:26:17 and read 7781 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
This is the fourth trans-Atlantic route that Delta won't start this summer as planned, joining Atlanta-Edinburgh, JFK-Lagos (delayed until December), and JFK-Dakar-Nairobi (delayed until December due to economic conditions in Kenya).



Quoting Mayor (Reply 21):
I just checked on our employee/retiree travelnet (which is connected to Deltamatic) and the flight shows still operating in June on Mon/Tue/Wed/Th/Sat. It shows overbooked by at least 50, everyday so maybe that's why Amadeus doesn't show any availability.

So which one is it guys? Whats the final word on this?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-21 12:26:54 and read 7455 times.



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 8):
Aren't DL and AF sharing revenue and profits of all their TATL flights, so it shouldn't matter to AF?

Hmmm you are right it makes no sense. Thanks for pointing that up to me. I thought AF would not be happy to not have those passengers through CDG but since this flight would be O&D as opposed to connecting passengers, my comment is indeed void.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 26):

Yes, what? 50 overbookings is a lot, and that is on a 757! Wouldn't it be just a loophole to make it unavailable?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-21 12:36:20 and read 7401 times.



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 27):

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 26):

Yes, what? 50 overbookings is a lot, and that is on a 757! Wouldn't it be just a loophole to make it unavailable?

That is what it typically is. They'll purposely overbook a flight to show no availability.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-21 12:39:32 and read 7369 times.

SLC-CDG is, tentatively, scheduled to operate four days a week (X246) starting October 6th. I'm not sure if this is a new change or not.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-21 12:50:34 and read 7290 times.

I just pulled it up on Delta.com using July 28th and it shows seats available.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-21 12:54:42 and read 7298 times.

DL54 JFK-ORY is showing operating X23 from 02Jun - 28Jun, and then daily eff. 30Jun.....perhaps the schedule for this flight, if it's getting the axe, has not been updated yet.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-21 13:49:28 and read 7032 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 31):
DL54 JFK-ORY is showing operating X23 from 02Jun - 28Jun, and then daily eff. 30Jun.....perhaps the schedule for this flight, if it's getting the axe, has not been updated yet.

The schedules won't be updated until 3AM Saturday.

Flight is still zero'd out on Amadeus/GDS, which is typically first to update. I guess we'll know a final answer by Sunday.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-21 13:56:26 and read 6990 times.

If you go into Delta.com and look for availability, JFK-ORY doesn't show but if you just check the flight schedules on the same website, it does. Here's how it looks on the employee website....

0054 JFK ORY 7JUN 1035P 8JUN 1230P DELTA 752 N/A -5/-5 (0) -20/-20 (0)

Oddly enough, when you check other dates the business and coach seats show in the same configuration. The first set of figures is business class with -5 available/-5 authorized zero capacity....coach -20/-20 and zero capacity. Never seen it like that before. Don't look like realistic figures. I wonder if they're just using it for overbookings from the JFK-CDG flights?

Anybody on here from DL res that can clear this up?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-21 13:58:21 and read 6980 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):

Flight is still zero'd out on Amadeus/GDS, which is typically first to update. I guess we'll know a final answer by Sunday.

Yep, that's correct. I just did a schedule search, not availability. Schedules are already uploaded in Gabriel.

DL 054 /JL DL IL WE02JUL JFKORY 2235 1230+1 757 0 D
YL BL ML HL QL KL LL UL TL

All L's = so long flight.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Haggis79
Posted 2008-03-21 14:16:09 and read 6949 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
no subsidies but all DL and AF flights between North America and France, including JFK-ORY will/would have been joint venture flights which means DL and AF share profits and losses. DL's decision to pull JFK-ORY is not its own but had to have been made with AF.

WT, I was talking about SLC-CDG, not JFK-ORY  Wink

Quoting Mayor (Reply 23):
What worries me about the SLC-CDG flight is whether, midsummer, they may have to limit seats because of heavy fuel loads, altitude and high heat, depending on what time of the day the flight leaves.

well, if you look at the number of bookings right now, they actually don't need to worry about limiting seats.... flight is only going to be half full anyway.

BTW, does anyone know how MUC-ATL usually performs? I took this flight on 02/12 and the load in Y was very light... maybe even less than 50%... I don't complain, we had lots of space on that flight that way and service was very fast... but it must hurt DL a lot to fly a maybe only half-full 764 around...

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Panamair
Posted 2008-03-21 18:38:36 and read 6762 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 33):
0054 JFK ORY 7JUN 1035P 8JUN 1230P DELTA 752 N/A -5/-5 (0) -20/-20 (0)

Oddly enough, when you check other dates the business and coach seats show in the same configuration. The first set of figures is business class with -5 available/-5 authorized zero capacity....coach -20/-20 and zero capacity. Never seen it like that before. Don't look like realistic figures. I wonder if they're just using it for overbookings from the JFK-CDG flights?

They are 'fictitious' bookings to zero out the flights so that they are no longer bookable, which essentially means the flight is gone. Schedules will be updated by Sunday AM.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-21 20:02:01 and read 6647 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
The overarching theme is that DL has thrown every international-capable aircraft it has at the wall hoping it would stick, and naturally a good percentage of those don't make money.

actually, no. DL has only deployed about half of the 757(ERs) and still has 8 or more 764s available to convert.

further, the fast majority are indeed proving to be successful... I know you don't want to admit it but DL's transatlantic RASM is growing faster than the rest of the industry even though DL is adding more capacity than anyone else. it is impossible for them to be flinging one airplane after another at new routes that are losing money and yet still manage to improve their RASM and equal or surpass revenue production their peers.

DL's international success is indeed successsful overall. if you think DL is unique, tell me a single US airline that hasn't cancelled or reduced capacity on an international route in the past year.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 35):
WT, I was talking about SLC-CDG, not JFK-ORY

let me repeat. All DL and AF flights between North America (includes Canada) and France are joint venture flights which means the profits and losses are shared. DL needs AF's agreement to launch SLC-CDG as well as JFK-ORY or not.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Evan767
Posted 2008-03-21 20:40:00 and read 6584 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 33):
0054 JFK ORY 7JUN 1035P 8JUN 1230P DELTA 752 N/A -5/-5 (0) -20/-20 (0)

Could these overbookings be the people who bought seats? Now that Delta can't accomodate 5 pax in Business and 20 in Coach, the flight is, technically, overbooked. They will have to be rerouted through CDG or elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-03-22 09:45:41 and read 6205 times.

The indications I get from the Delta people is that the route, has indeed, been cut. Not sure if it's permanent or temporary.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-22 10:12:39 and read 6128 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
actually, no. DL has only deployed about half of the 757(ERs) and still has 8 or more 764s available to convert.

Of course they still have 757s to deploy, they're not flying ATLEDI, JFKORY, and probably a couple more routes soon. Most of those unconverted 764s are still flying long haul to Hawaii or even places like LIM.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
I know you don't want to admit it but DL's transatlantic RASM is growing faster than the rest of the industry even though DL is adding more capacity than anyone else

I think you're confusing me with yourself. We all know Delta is the most amazing airline on earth Yeah sure.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
DL's international success is indeed successsful overall

Did I *ever* say otherwise?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
if you think DL is unique, tell me a single US airline that hasn't cancelled or reduced capacity on an international route in the past year.

DL has added so much international capacity that their last adds have necessarily been some riskier choices. The alternative of flying the aircraft domestically was probably worse, but it is a fact of life that generally your next best add is not as good as your last add. Multiply that by the dozens of routes DL has started from an already large international portfolio and I'm betting we'll see a lot more reductions, especially if oil remains well above $100.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-22 12:44:50 and read 6017 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
DL has added so much international capacity that their last adds have necessarily been some riskier choices.

I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. You are missing the point that DL is largely cutting routes that duplicate an existing route from another hub. IE ATLEDI is not being added because JFKEDI is. JFKLOS is not being added because ATLLOS exists.

We will clearly see other airlines cut routes if fuel stays above $100/bbl, esp. going into the fall. DL has simply stepped up to the plate now while other airlines are taking a wait and see approach into the summer. It is an absolute given there will either be heavy route cuts or deep losses at other carriers if capacity is not pulled down going into the fall and fuel remains at current levels. US airlines are notoriously slow in changing in the mdst of economic downturns. DL has apparently decided it wants to leave those kinds of ways for history.

We'll see in about six months who made the right financial decisions.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Mariner
Posted 2008-03-22 12:52:39 and read 5986 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
We all know Delta is the most amazing airline on earth .

Gosh, that may be true. But in this instance, I am very happy to see big Delta following the lead of tiny Frontier.  Smile

mariner

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-22 18:06:03 and read 5798 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. You are missing the point that DL is largely cutting routes that duplicate an existing route from another hub. IE ATLEDI is not being added because JFKEDI is. JFKLOS is not being added because ATLLOS exists.

You can spin it any way you want to, but at the end of the day, their next add ie ATLEDI/JFKORY/JFK-anywhere in Central America, is not as good as their last add. It happens--the low hanging fruit is long gone and each additional route should in theory be riskier, all things being equal. However I'm betting JFKLOS is not being cutailed because of ATLLOS but rather government obstacles.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: LawnDart
Posted 2008-03-22 18:32:41 and read 5762 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
but it is a fact of life that generally your next best add is not as good as your last add.

Really? I would've thought airline network analysts would go for the crappy routes first before adding the really really lucrative ones...  dopey 

Listen, some of the routes Delta is adding are out-of-the-ordinary for a U.S. carrier, but, as you said, they're probably better than the domestic scene at the moment and, further, not much competition (except places like LHR...).

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-22 19:24:25 and read 5729 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
their next add is not as good as their last add.

suppose DL's next route is ATL-HKG, a route realistic only with a 777LR. I'd say that is a high quality route that was waiting for the right aircraft rather than being an inferior route to something that already exists. Same thing from ATL-BOM or ATL-TGU.

All things being equal, I'd agree with you but adding 2 new aircraft types to the fleet opens routes that were otherwise not technically possible.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-22 19:57:12 and read 5686 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
suppose DL's next route is ATL-HKG, a route realistic only with a 777LR. I'd say that is a high quality route that was waiting for the right aircraft rather than being an inferior route to something that already exists. Same thing from ATL-BOM or ATL-TGU.

That's why I said "all things equal". DL's next 757 or 767 add is not going to be as good as its last 757/767 add, however a new aircraft in the fleet will offer new opportunities. That said, ATLHKG is riskier than BOMJFK, where DL decided to put its first 77L--the success, or lack thereof, of ATLPVG will certainly help them make that decision.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-26 15:19:43 and read 5287 times.

The route to ORY has been postponed until "summer 2009". The JFK-LYS route has been postponed also, but by 6 weeks or so to July 18th.
SLC-CDG is maintained starting June 2nd.
DL and AF issued a press release to confirm that, available on the Lyon airport website (couldn't find it on corporate.airfrance.com).

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Panamair
Posted 2008-03-26 15:25:53 and read 5269 times.



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 47):
The JFK-LYS route has been postponed also, but by 6 weeks or so to July 18th.

The inaugural eastbound JFK-LYS is now scheduled for July 17 (inaugural from LYS as you mentioned, is on July 18).
This one was originally supposed to start July 15, was brought forward to early June about a month ago, and now with the recent cuts/drawdown, is back to a July start date.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-03-27 07:50:25 and read 4912 times.



Quoting Panamair (Reply 48):
The inaugural eastbound JFK-LYS is now scheduled for July 17 (inaugural from LYS as you mentioned, is on July 18).
This one was originally supposed to start July 15, was brought forward to early June about a month ago, and now with the recent cuts/drawdown, is back to a July start date.

It's also now 5 weekly instead of daily

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Flyingcat
Posted 2008-03-27 08:07:28 and read 4890 times.

Res agents have been told that ORY is indefinitely postponed due to problems with necessary approvals. A new start date has not been announced.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2008-03-27 09:55:51 and read 4749 times.



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
No one but the most price sensitive wants to backtrack from the Northeast US to Atlanta.

That statement makes no sense.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
all DL and AF flights between North America and France, including JFK-ORY will/would have been joint venture flights which means DL and AF share profits and losses.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
let me repeat. All DL and AF flights between North America (includes Canada) and France are joint venture flights which means the profits and losses are shared.

...IIRC, when they originally received their ATI, DL/AF were prohibited from revenue-sharing on ATL/CVG-CDG, even during times which AF was not in the CVG market. Is that still the case, or has that somehow been revoked?

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 24):
Of course if the dollar keeps on sinking people will avoid leaving the country as it is getting progressively more expensive. I have seen my level of international bookings start shrinking.

Thing is though, the majority of traffic on nearly every northern transatlantic route originates on the Euro end... and for them, this is boom-time

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: CuriousFlyer
Posted 2008-03-27 10:51:46 and read 4641 times.

I have a booking I made for this flight 2 months ago on ORY JFK. It still shows up on the website. However I see that this flight shows zero availabiity ofr my flying day and any day I try.

Fishy clearly, I guess I will have to reschedule my trip... what a pain, other friends are scheduled to arrive in ORY with me on a connecting flight, so there is a domino effect and we all get our trips messed up... well done DL !

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-27 11:46:03 and read 4541 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 49):
It's also now 5 weekly instead of daily

Indeed that's also disapointing. I would have guessed it would be more of a business oriented market, but they are cutting 2 of the weekdays flights, and pretty close to each other: no tuesday and thursday flights from LYS (monday and Wednesday from JFK). Hmmm I guess I am not a planning man!

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Panamair
Posted 2008-03-27 11:54:42 and read 4533 times.



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 53):
I would have guessed it would be more of a business oriented market

Actually, more the opposite. The last time DL/AF tried JFK-LYS with a DL 763, the Economy cabin was never the problem - the front was. I don't think things have changed significantly since, hence the 752 is more appropriate since they will only have to sell 15 Business seats instead of 35 to 47 the last time round.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-03-27 12:53:47 and read 4432 times.

It is now rumored that AF could open ORY-JFK with its own aircraft (A332), at least for the summer season...

Wait and see it is confirmed.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-27 13:45:10 and read 4354 times.



Quoting Panamair (Reply 54):
the Economy cabin was never the problem

Ah ok it makes sense this way. But I don't think AF was partnering with DL for the previous try (what, 2001?). Where they already in a code-share relationship? When was SkyTeam inaugurated?If they were already in agreements I bet they would not cover this particuliar route.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Panamair
Posted 2008-03-27 14:00:34 and read 4336 times.



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 56):
But I don't think AF was partnering with DL for the previous try (what, 2001?). Where they already in a code-share relationship? When was SkyTeam inaugurated?If they were already in agreements I bet they would not cover this particuliar route.

Yes, AF did codeshare with DL on the previous JFK-LYS try. AF and DL signed a strategic partnership agreement back in the summer of 1999; SkyTeam was launched in 2000.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-27 15:22:57 and read 4232 times.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 51):
...IIRC, when they originally received their ATI, DL/AF were prohibited from revenue-sharing on ATL/CVG-CDG, even during times which AF was not in the CVG market. Is that still the case, or has that somehow been revoked?

I don't believe the DOT has any hub to hub requirements between any US airlines other than between BA and AA at London; AA/BA possibly could have the restrictions lifted since they date from before Open Skies.

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 53):
I would have guessed it would be more of a business oriented market,

LYS is a major banking center.... I think there will be enough business passengers for a 757.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2008-03-27 16:47:39 and read 4124 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 58):
I don't believe the DOT has any hub to hub requirements between any US airlines other than between BA and AA at London

Well, as stated, AF/AZ/DL were indeed prohibited from revenue sharing between the aforementioned hubs... my question was more along the lines of if that's no longer the case, what/when caused it to change?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-27 17:12:54 and read 4092 times.

yes it was true. I don't know the exact date when the restriction was removed but the DOJ has realized that even in markets where there is no nonstop competition, there is still plenty of competition. Passengers are willing to connect on an international flight if the fares get too high.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2008-03-28 04:38:41 and read 3906 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 60):
I don't know the exact date when the restriction was removed

...or "if", so it seems  Wink

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Icna05e
Posted 2008-03-28 11:50:51 and read 3713 times.



Quoting Panamair (Reply 57):
Yes

Ah ok. Good I did not bet too much! Thanks for enlighting me.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 59):
AF/AZ/DL were indeed prohibited from revenue sharing between the aforementioned hubs

Well, I might be (again!) completely wrong but isn't the joint-venture between DL and AF covering these interhub routes? I am pretty sure those are the very first step, the agreement will progressively extend to all TATL routes. And isn't it about sharing all costs and revenues?

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: Delta4eva
Posted 2008-03-28 14:42:37 and read 3608 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 60):
yes it was true. I don't know the exact date when the restriction was removed but the DOJ has realized that even in markets where there is no nonstop competition, there is still plenty of competition. Passengers are willing to connect on an international flight if the fares get too high.

I believe there was a clause in the ATI that stated if the EU and US signed an open skies agreement, then AF and DL will be able to share revenue from DL hubs to CDG.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-28 16:00:59 and read 3557 times.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 61):
or "if", so it seems

since DL and AF have a profit sharing agreement (joint venture), they clearly have the full ability to share everything involved in operating an airline including pricing and capacity management.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 63):
I believe there was a clause in the ATI that stated if the EU and US signed an open skies agreement, then AF and DL will be able to share revenue from DL hubs to CDG.

possible but the US and France already had Open Skies which was the only restriction on sharing revenue. NW-KL have had a joint venture long before Open Skies.

Topic: RE: Delta Will Not Fly To Paris Orly
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2008-03-28 16:40:48 and read 3528 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
since DL and AF have a profit sharing agreement (joint venture), they clearly have the full ability to share everything involved in operating an airline including pricing and capacity management.

Again, you're giving me supposition, not fact. DL and AF have had the authority and capability to revenue share on almost any route they chose for nearly seven years... long before their "joint venture", as it's now formulated, became public domain.

That ability did not, however, supercede original restrictions on their ATI allotment; and I've now thrice asked what specific information makes you believe that that's now somehow changed; and have only been met with "yes, it's changed" instead of "this is how/why it changed".


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