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Topic: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 11:42:26 and read 13172 times.

edited for bad counting

Here we go. America's fifty largest domestic O&D market based on traffic between August 2006 and July 2007.

Some notes on the figures:
1) Domestic O&D only. They do not include international O&D.
2) I combined airports based on MSA regions as determined by the U.S. census. MSAs are the most common standard used for measuring population size, although there will obviously be many that disagree with some of the ways they are determined (i.e. San Jose and San Francisco/Oakland are seperate MSAs). To be standard across the board, however, I stuck with airports in the MSAs. These include the obvious (IAH/HOU; ORD/MDW), but also the not-so-obvious (PHL/ACY; ONT/PSP).

1) New York City - 62.6M
2) Los Angeles - 48.4M
3) Chicago - 41.3M
4) Miami - 32.8M
5) Las Vegas - 32.5M
6) San Francisco - 29.5M
7) Orlando - 29.3M
8) Dallas - 26.9M
9) Atlanta - 26.1M
10) Washington - 25.9M
11) Phoenix - 23.9M
12) Denver - 22.6M
13) Boston - 20.6M
14) Seattle - 19.9M
15) Houston - 19.5M
16) Philadelphia - 18.1M
17) San Diego - 16.5M
17) Tampa - 16.5M
19) Baltimore - 15.7M
20) Detroit - 15.4M
21) Minneapolis - 15.3M
22) Honolulu - 12.3M
23) Portland - 10.9M
24) St. Louis - 10.2M
25) Salt Lake City - 10.1M
26) Sacramento - 9.7M
27) San Jose - 9.5M
28) Kansas City - 9.4M
29) Charlotte - 8.4M
30) Raleigh - 8.3M
31) Nashville - 7.8M
32) Inland Empire - 7.7M
33) Pittsburgh - 7.5M
34) Cleveland - 7.4M
35) Fort Myers - 7.3M
36) Indianapolis - 7.1M
37) Austin - 7.1M
38) San Antonio - 6.9M
39) Hartford - 6.3M
40) Columbus - 6.2M
40) New Orleans - 6.2M
42) San Juan - 6.1M
43) Jacksonville - 5.6M
44) Milwaukee - 5.5M
45) Albuquerque - 5.4M
46) Maui - 5.1M
47) Providence - 4.8M
48) Buffalo - 4.7M
49) Reno - 4.4M
50) Cincinnati - 4.3M
51) Memphis - 4.1M
52) Tucson - 3.8M

[Edited 2008-03-26 11:44:35]

[Edited 2008-03-26 11:58:13]

Topic: RE: The 50 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2008-03-26 11:46:51 and read 13159 times.

It makes me wonder how NW succeeds with none of its hubs in the top 19 O/D markets.

Topic: RE: The 50 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-26 11:51:35 and read 13136 times.

Nice to see MSY make the top 40...tied with CMH even. I'd expect that number to increase as more people return to the area. Not too bad though, currently.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Lesismore
Posted 2008-03-26 12:14:43 and read 13072 times.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
It makes me wonder how NW succeeds with none of its hubs in the top 19 O/D markets.

Those rankings make sense, somewhat correlating with MSA ranking.

Detroit is the 10th largest MSA, and Minneapolis the 16th.

NW has a very large international presence in their DTW/MSP hubs, that may be how they are (or were) succeeding.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Ssides
Posted 2008-03-26 12:18:00 and read 13047 times.

MAH, great data -- where did you get it?

Any chance you can dig up International O&D numbers too? I'd like to see where Houston ranks on that list.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-03-26 12:29:03 and read 12975 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 2):
Nice to see MSY make the top 40...tied with CMH even. I'd expect that number to increase as more people return to the area. Not too bad though, currently.

Every now and then I do see more and more service making a come back as more people return. Some folks say that it's almost back, but I guess I won't be able to tell once I check it out myself. I was in New Orleans 8 months before Katrina hit and I thought it was a wonderful city!

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
33) Pittsburgh - 7.5M

As for my city -- well former home anyway, hopefully this will continue to climb. It kinda leveled off last year, but there is talk of WN adding more destinations and flights. High-up management and I think route planners were in talks with the ACAA a few weeks ago to talk about their service at PIT. They keep posting gains in pax and revenues all across the board since their service began in May 2005.

It was rumored a few months ago that they would operate some 70 daily flights there, but given the current state of the economy, I do not expect that to come to fruition. I do expect them to add more service tho. I think they now offer at least 25 daily flights to PHL, PHX, MDW, MCO, TPA, BWI, and LAS. Many think that PVD, BDL, BNA, and STL might be possibilities -- maybe 2x each...

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-26 12:33:37 and read 12938 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
2) I combined airports based on MSA regions as determined by the U.S. census. MSAs are the most common standard used for measuring population size, although there will obviously be many that disagree with some of the ways they are determined (i.e. San Jose and San Francisco/Oakland are seperate MSAs). To be standard across the board, however, I stuck with airports in the MSAs

ONT is actively marketed as an alternative airport to LAX, and you took it out because of the Census' idiotic definition of MSAs. Los Angeles is the economic engine for the IE and thathas to be included. San Jose is another one.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 13:28:11 and read 12778 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):

ONT is actively marketed as an alternative airport to LAX, and you took it out because of the Census' idiotic definition of MSAs. Los Angeles is the economic engine for the IE and thathas to be included. San Jose is another one.

I myself live in LA (city proper) and never, ever consider ONT an "alternative." It is just way to far out of the way, and the drive can take as long as 2.5 hours in traffic, but that's just one person's opinion. When I lived in Miami (again, in the city proper), I never considered PBI an alternative, but I know people in north Miami-Dade who would drive up to PBI all the time.

Whether or not the census' definitions are "idiotic", that's what they are, and that was the most standard way of comparing them. Adding ONT to LA doesn't change the rankings; adding SJC to SFO/OAK brings it up to 4th.

[Edited 2008-03-26 13:31:40]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2008-03-26 13:35:35 and read 12747 times.

This was kind of a shock to me. I would have figured DEN would have been much higher on the list than #12... Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't DEN long been one of the top O&D markets in the US?
My twocents 

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Dellatorre
Posted 2008-03-26 13:40:14 and read 12718 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
32) Inland Empire - 7.7M

Someone could clarify?

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-26 13:41:01 and read 12718 times.

while these are helpful stats, they don't really show what matters which is revenue. If you use revenue, LAS and MCO move down quite a bit because of their low fare nature while hubs like IAH, PHL, ATL, DTW, and MSP move up in the rankings. As always, statistics can be used to show what you want. If you want to show how many people travel by air to each metro area, you have done that. If you want to know what metro areas are most valuable to airlines, that is a different set of data.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: St530
Posted 2008-03-26 13:49:33 and read 12670 times.

I am perplexed as to how or why Dallas and Atlanta, which are roughly the same size as Houston and otherwise rather similar demographically, supposedly each generated some 7 million more (> 35%) O&D passengers. Where are all the additional people coming from? Neither should have significantly greater O numbers than Houston, and neither is a big tourist city that would explain higher D numbers (the business D travelers among the 3 cities should be roughly equal).

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 13:50:17 and read 12669 times.



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
32) Inland Empire - 7.7M

Someone could clarify?

Ontario-Palm Springs, California, west of LA. It used to be part of the LA metro area until a few years ago.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
If you want to show how many people travel by air to each metro area, you have done that.

I never purported to try to show anything else.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: BAGoldEx
Posted 2008-03-26 13:50:36 and read 12669 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 8):
This was kind of a shock to me. I would have figured DEN would have been much higher on the list than #12... Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't DEN long been one of the top O&D markets in the US?
My

As far as I'm concerned the numbers seem made up. Atlanta seems ridiculously high while Philadelphia and Houston, two of the five largest metro areas in the country don't even crack the top ten. I'd believe it if the raw numbers were provided but the earlier request for a source went unanswered and that always reeks to me of impropriety regardless of the situation. Surely you must have a spreadsheet or something you can link to with all of this info and the reliable sources.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2008-03-26 13:52:08 and read 12647 times.



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):
Someone could clarify?

The Inland Empire an area in California east of Los Angeles, primarily encompassing Riverside and San Bernardino counties. Palm Springs, Riverside, San Bernardino, Ontario, et al are considered to be part of the Inland Empire

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 13:53:20 and read 12640 times.



Quoting St530 (Reply 11):
I am perplexed as to how or why Dallas and Atlanta, which are roughly the same size as Houston and otherwise rather similar demographically, supposedly each generated some 7 million more (> 35%) O&D passengers. Where are all the additional people coming from? Neither should have significantly greater O numbers than Houston, and neither is a big tourist city that would explain higher D numbers (the business D travelers among the 3 cities should be roughly equal).

The figures are domestic only. Houston is definitely a much larger international O&D market, with a significant chunk of business (oil industry) traffic to the region being international.

Also, thanks to some city's geographic location, city's might pull from a much wider area outside just the metro. Albuquerque, for example, pulls in traffic from throughout the whole state, and ranks much higher than others it's size. Same with Salt Lake City.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 13:54:46 and read 12646 times.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 13):
As far as I'm concerned the numbers seem made up. Atlanta seems ridiculously high while Philadelphia and Houston, two of the five largest metro areas in the country don't even crack the top ten. I'd believe it if the raw numbers were provided but the earlier request for a source went unanswered and that always reeks to me of impropriety regardless of the situation. Surely you must have a spreadsheet or something you can link to with all of this info and the reliable sources.

Yes, that's right. I go around making up charts for fun.

http://www.eclatconsulting.com/im_pdf/top_200_us_markets.pdf

Houston probably doesn't crack the top ten because they have a significant amount of international traffic.

Philadelphia probably doesn't crack the top ten because they are in a very dense region. Much traffic to major travel markets - like DC and New York City - goes by train. Not to mention they do leak traffic to Newark from the northern/eastern suburbs.


2) Los Angeles - higher if you include ONT/PSP.
4) Miami - major metropolitan area and major tourist destination (in which most arrive by air) gives high O&D; Florida's geography create above average daily O&D on intra-state markets.
5) Las Vegas - major tourist destination; most people arrive by air.
6) San Francisco - higher if you include SJC.
7) Orlando - major tourist destination; most people arrive by air.
8) Dallas - pulls in traffic that drives to DFW from all over northern Texas/southern Oklahoma for cheaper airfare
9) Atlanta - pulls in traffic that drives to ATL from all over northern Georgia/southeast Tennessee for cheaper airfare
10) Washington - traffic leakage to Baltimore
11) Phoenix - pulls in traffic that drives to PHX from all over western Arizona for cheaper airfare; popular tourist destination with Midwesterners.
12) Denver - pulls in traffic that drives to DEN from all over central Colorado; Colorado's geography makes intra-state O&D numbers higher than average for certain markets; many tourists to ski resorts will fly into Denver and rent cars to go to surrounding areas.
13) Boston - major markets like NY and DC lose traffic to trains; some traffic leakage to MHT/PVD
14) Seattle - pulls in traffic that drive to SEA from all over northwest Washington for cheaper airfare; major regional business centre with above average O&D for short-haul markets.
16) Philadelphia - major markets like NY and DC lose traffic to trains; traffic leakage to Newark
20) Detroit - some traffic leakage to Flint
25) Salt Lake City - pulls in traffic from all over Utah as SLC is the only airport in Utah with non-EAS airline service; pulls in the majority of ski traffic to Utah.
35) Fort Myers - 7.3M - major tourist destination
45) Albuquerque - 5.4M - only non-EAS airline service in the state; pulls in traffic from throughout New Mexico; popular tourist destination both winter and summer
50) Cincinnati - 4.3M - Delta's high-fares scare traffic away to Dayton, Louisville

[Edited 2008-03-26 14:07:52]

[Edited 2008-03-26 14:15:37]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: ETforLIFE
Posted 2008-03-26 13:57:17 and read 12615 times.



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
32) Inland Empire - 7.7M

Someone could clarify?

The inland empire is basically Riverside & San Bernandino counties. It's about 35 miles east of Los Angeles and 30 miles north of Orange County. With home prices extremely high in the LA/Orange County area, a lot of people are moving here, hence the rapid growth. ONT serves the Inland Empire. All this talk of ONT serving as an alternative to LA/Orange County residents (like LAWA renaming it LA/Ontario International) is to get people to fly out of ONT, but no one wants to drive 30 miles in our horrible traffic

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 14:10:18 and read 12554 times.

Quoting ETforLIFE (Reply 17):
All this talk of ONT serving as an alternative to LA/Orange County residents (like LAWA renaming it LA/Ontario International) is to get people to fly out of ONT, but no one wants to drive 30 miles in our horrible traffic



ONT is not a real alternative, IMO, as much as people want to make it out to be. If I have friends/relatives visit me in LA, I remind them not to fly to Ontario. It would literally take half a day to get there, pick them up, and drive back to LA. Not to mention 100 miles on my odometer.

[Edited 2008-03-26 14:16:04]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2008-03-26 14:34:12 and read 12458 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
As always, statistics can be used to show what you want. If you want to show how many people travel by air to each metro area, you have done that. If you want to know what metro areas are most valuable to airlines, that is a different set of data.

On A.net, it always seems that whenever anyone posts a set of data, and gives the definition of the data they are presenting, people are always very quick to dispute it and say the original poster was using it incorrectly.

MAH4546 wasn't try to make any gross exaggerations here. He didn't make any false claims about how important or valuable certain markets are.

WT, I agree with you as this is only one set of datapoints, so be it. It does provide some interesting insight though.

Since it is only domestic O&D, it only tells part of the story. It is not international O&D, total O&D, enplanements, or the cost of tea in China.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
It makes me wonder how NW succeeds with none of its hubs in the top 19 O/D markets.

Many of the larger markets have multiple airports are multiple carriers with a significant presence. Additionally, NW's operations at DTW & MSP are of the size to which they can profitably operate. Hence, why you don't see the international service into 2nd tier makets like you see from ORD, ATL, etc.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Vega
Posted 2008-03-26 14:39:09 and read 12443 times.

All I can say is that your innovative combining of the typical airport O&D numbers accomplished making Miami and NYC look surprisingly better in rank than their actual airports (MIA/JFK,EWR,LGA). Also, as we all know, Airport O&D and Catchment size is more typically used to determine potential route viability for airlines.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: PanAm747
Posted 2008-03-26 14:47:58 and read 12400 times.



Quote:
It makes me wonder how NW succeeds with none of its hubs in the top 19 O/D markets.

A while back, there was a thread comparing the number of businesses in the Atlanta area with the number of businesses in the metropolitan Twin Cities area. As I recall, both areas have a VERY large number of businesses headquartered there, justifying "hub" operations. I can't find the link - anyone know the one I'm talking about?

Minnesota isn't the largest state population-wise, but MSP is a very profitable hub for NW. It is also a vital link for may parts of the upper midwest that may not have service to DEN, ORD, or DFW, so it works for both O&D and hub operations.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-26 14:52:13 and read 12385 times.



Quoting Vega (Reply 20):
All I can say is that your innovative combining of the typical airport O&D numbers accomplished making Miami and NYC look surprisingly better in rank than their actual airports (MIA/JFK,EWR,LGA).

I don't think its "innovative" at all.

There is absolutely nothing strange about gaging the relative size of air markets by combining the statistics for airports that serve those markets.

Combining Miami and Fort Lauderdale is, in my mind, totally reasonable - they serve much of the same market, as evidenced by the fact that over the last few years we've seen lots of the same traffic, and market share, shift between the two.

Same with JFK, LaGuardia and Newark: I don't see how any rational person could possibly look at the New York air market and not combine all three. All three are less than 25 miles from each other, and as anyone who has lived in or travelers frequently to the Tri-State area will tell you, they largely serve exactly the same market (which, by the way, happens to be the largest metro area in North America). Sure, North Jersey isn't likely to drive over to JFK that often, and the people out on the Island usually won't go over to Newark, but still - there is absolutely nothing "innovative" about combining these three airports (and, while we're at it, let's talk about Islip, Stewart and Westchester) for comparison purposes. Indeed, I don't see any other representative way.

Quoting Vega (Reply 20):
Also, as we all know, Airport O&D and Catchment size is more typically used to determine potential route viability for airlines.

And again, if we're talking about catchment area size, then it is only logical to combine the statistics of some airports - like those in South Florida, those in New York, those in Houston, those in Dallas/Fort Worth, those in L.A. (though definitely not Ontario for the reasons others have already outlined), etc.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: UAL747
Posted 2008-03-26 14:56:13 and read 12365 times.

Wow, I'm surprised to see Dallas is bigger than Houston! With all the international airlines at IAH and hardly any at DFW makes you wonder what's going on with these cities and why?

UAL

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-26 15:01:55 and read 12345 times.



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 23):
Wow, I'm surprised to see Dallas is bigger than Houston!

It's important to remember that the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex is significantly larger than Houston. Depending on which numbers are used, the Metroplex population is estimated by some counts to be anywhere between 400,000 and 700,000 (ore more) more than that of the Houston metro area. As anyone who has flown into DFW on a sunny day will no doubt attest, the Metroplex is absolutely massive - sprawling, huge, enormous. The superlatives are endless. And it keeps on growing, too.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 23):
With all the international airlines at IAH and hardly any at DFW makes you wonder what's going on with these cities and why?

These are domestic-only numbers. The international O&D numbers for Houston, while not enough to overtake Dallas/Fort Worth overall, is probably 5-10x bigger than for Dallas/Fort Worth. Houston - because of its place as the center of the oil/gas/energy universe - generates far, far more international traffic than the Metroplex.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Lesismore
Posted 2008-03-26 15:11:33 and read 12308 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Quoting ETforLIFE (Reply 17):
All this talk of ONT serving as an alternative to LA/Orange County residents (like LAWA renaming it LA/Ontario International) is to get people to fly out of ONT, but no one wants to drive 30 miles in our horrible traffic



ONT is not a real alternative, IMO, as much as people want to make it out to be. If I have friends/relatives visit me in LA, I remind them not to fly to Ontario. It would literally take half a day to get there, pick them up, and drive back to LA. Not to mention 100 miles on my odometer.

ONT IS a real alternative to many people living on the fringe areas of LA (i.e. Pomona) and north Orange County. Because of its size, it is also much easier to get in/out, check in, board, park, etc. That may sway some people's minds to fly in/out of there.

Since I live in the I.E., ONT is generally my first choice, but to get to most places you need to make a connection somewhere. That's why I drive to SNA or LAX. (I actually go to LAX sometimes just because I want to fly on wide-bodies.)

And MAH4546, traffic is bad everywhere in SoCal, its a part of life here. Nobody WANTS to drive in 30 miles in LA's horrible traffic, but they do if they have to. It doesn't take a half-day to get in and out of ONT. I used to commute from the I.E. to Westlake Village (about 90 miles one way). It could take up to 2.5 hours each way, but that's hardly half a day. Traffic was bad, but predictable, and there were ways around it sometimes. You probably don't get out of LA too often.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-26 15:17:32 and read 12577 times.



Quoting Lesismore (Reply 25):
And MAH4546, traffic is bad everywhere in SoCal, its a part of life here. Nobody WANTS to drive in 30 miles in LA's horrible traffic, but they do if they have to. It doesn't take a half-day to get in and out of ONT. I used to commute from the I.E. to Westlake Village (about 90 miles one way). It could take up to 2.5 hours each way, but that's hardly half a day. Traffic was bad, but predictable, and there were ways around it sometimes. You probably don't get out of LA too often.

This is, admittedly, anecdotal, as I myself do not now and have never lived in the L.A. Basin (coast or IE).

But, I do know many, many people who live in the region - everywhere from Burbank to Beverly Hills to Hollywood to L.A. to Long Beach to Orange County to Temecula.

None of the people I know who live outside of the Valley would ever - ever - even think of using Ontario to fly anywhere. In fact, I have helped some of my friends in the area book trips, and in the very few times that I have even brought up the idea of flying out of Ontario, I have been - repeatedly - greeted with laughter.

The idea that Ontario is in any way an alternative for Los Angeles is, to me, based on my (admittedly limited, at least relatively) experience, laughable. I don't think anybody outside of the Mayor and LAWA bureaucrats would think of it as such, and I doubt there is virtually anyone in L.A. who use Ontario on a regular basis.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-26 15:20:11 and read 12554 times.

You could easily add another few hundred thousand to MSY when you consider much of BTR's metro area population uses MSY as their airport of choice. That's a well known fact.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-26 15:25:58 and read 12544 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
L.A. Basin (coast or IE)

That isn't the entire L.A. Basin.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):

None of the people I know who live outside of the Valley

What Valley are you talking about. "The Valley" here in L.A. suggests the San Fernando Valley, and I don't know anyone from there who would ever consider driving to ONT. They use BUR or LAX.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):

The idea that Ontario is in any way an alternative for Los Angeles is, to me, based on my (admittedly limited, at least relatively) experience

It depends on where you live.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):

ONT is not a real alternative

It is for a large part of L.A. County, as well as the eastern parts of the city proper, not to mention the surrounding areas that are economically supported by L.A.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):

I myself live in LA (city proper) and never, ever consider ONT an "alternative."

So do I and I tend to agree with you, unless there is something that takes me out there. Then again, I don't really consider LGB an alternative, while I do consider BUR one.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Adding ONT to LA doesn't change the rankings

It does, however, change the numbers.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
adding SJC to SFO/OAK brings it up to 4th.

And it should be added.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 15:44:41 and read 12499 times.

Quoting Vega (Reply 20):
All I can say is that your innovative combining of the typical airport O&D numbers accomplished making Miami and NYC look surprisingly better in rank than their actual airports (MIA/JFK,EWR,LGA).

"Innovative"? How is simply looking taking the MSAs in the United States, and then adding up the airports located within each MSA, being innovative? It's not innovative at all. It's quite simple. At Miami, Fort Lauderdale - not MIA - is the primary domestic airport for the entire region. FLL has almost double the domestic O&D, more non-stops, and higher frequency on most key East coast routes. If I wanted to make Miami and NYC look impressive, I would try to hunt down international O&D, because Miami and NYC (and LA) would blow everything else out of the water.

Quoting Vega (Reply 20):
Also, as we all know, Airport O&D and Catchment size is more typically used to determine potential route viability for airlines.

It's a chart based on domestic O&D based on airports within the borders of a MSA. That's it. It's not meant to determine anything else. Though you are entirely contradicting yourself. You seem upset that MIA and NYC airports are grouped together, yet then you say that catchment size is more important. Yet catchment size is best represented by metro area, and I combined the metro area airports. Which one is it?

Seems a bunch of people get bitter if their airport/city isn't in the top ten or behind Atlanta. I totally understand the arguments of putting SJC with Bay Area and the Inland Empire with LA (and I didn't for reasons of being consistent), but outside of that, there really isn't anything to change.

Quoting Lesismore (Reply 25):
It could take up to 2.5 hours each way, but that's hardly half a day.

2.5 hours there, plus 2.5 hours back, plus at least 30 minutes, maybe 45-1h, at the airport. To me, that's half a day. If I leave at 9AM, I won't be back in LA until at least 2PM, if not 3PM.

[Edited 2008-03-26 15:51:00]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: GatiBOSGRU
Posted 2008-03-26 15:45:28 and read 12463 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 13):
As far as I'm concerned the numbers seem made up. Atlanta seems ridiculously high while Philadelphia and Houston, two of the five largest metro areas in the country don't even crack the top ten. I'd believe it if the raw numbers were provided but the earlier request for a source went unanswered and that always reeks to me of impropriety regardless of the situation. Surely you must have a spreadsheet or something you can link to with all of this info and the reliable sources.


Yes, that's right. I go around making up charts for fun.

http://www.eclatconsulting.com/im_pd...s.pdf

Ouch...
 rotfl   thumbsup 

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 15:53:20 and read 12449 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 27):
You could easily add another few hundred thousand to MSY when you consider much of BTR's metro area population uses MSY as their airport of choice. That's a well known fact.

That wouldn't change the numbers. If somebody from BTR uses MSY, they are counted in MSY's O&D and reflected in the numbers.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2008-03-26 16:04:31 and read 12398 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Same with Salt Lake City.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
25) Salt Lake City - pulls in traffic from all over Utah as SLC is the only airport in Utah with non-EAS airline service; pulls in the majority of ski traffic to Utah.

For SLC, you pretty much must include the entire Wasatch Front, which include the MSA regions for Ogden and Provo. As for Ski traffic sometime compare how much comes into SLC vs. DEN and the other Colorado airports during the season and then laugh at Utah's hideous Alcoholic Beverage Control Laws.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-03-26 16:05:25 and read 12393 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
If somebody from BTR uses MSY, they are counted in MSY's O&D and reflected in the numbers.

 checkmark  Thanks for clarifying that for me.

(I am now officially inserting foot in mouth)

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Scorpy
Posted 2008-03-26 16:12:10 and read 12354 times.

its interesting to see where the various hubs are in regards to this... I added them below.. some might be wrong but its interesting how small the O&D is of some hubs.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):

1) New York City - 62.6M - DL, B6, CO
2) Los Angeles - 48.4M, UA
3) Chicago - 41.3M, UA, AA
4) Miami - 32.8M, AA
5) Las Vegas - 32.5M, US
6) San Francisco - 29.5M, UA
7) Orlando - 29.3M
8) Dallas - 26.9M, AA
9) Atlanta - 26.1M, DL
10) Washington - 25.9M, UA
11) Phoenix - 23.9M, US
12) Denver - 22.6M, UA, f9
13) Boston - 20.6M
14) Seattle - 19.9M
15) Houston - 19.5M, CO
16) Philadelphia - 18.1M, US
17) San Diego - 16.5M
17) Tampa - 16.5M
19) Baltimore - 15.7M
20) Detroit - 15.4M, NW
21) Minneapolis - 15.3M, NW
22) Honolulu - 12.3M
23) Portland - 10.9M
24) St. Louis - 10.2M, AA
25) Salt Lake City - 10.1M, DL
26) Sacramento - 9.7M
27) San Jose - 9.5M
28) Kansas City - 9.4M
29) Charlotte - 8.4M
30) Raleigh - 8.3M
31) Nashville - 7.8M
32) Inland Empire - 7.7M
33) Pittsburgh - 7.5M
34) Cleveland - 7.4M, CO
35) Fort Myers - 7.3M
36) Indianapolis - 7.1M
37) Austin - 7.1M
38) San Antonio - 6.9M
39) Hartford - 6.3M
40) Columbus - 6.2M
40) New Orleans - 6.2M
42) San Juan - 6.1M
43) Jacksonville - 5.6M
44) Milwaukee - 5.5M
45) Albuquerque - 5.4M
46) Maui - 5.1M
47) Providence - 4.8M
48) Buffalo - 4.7M
49) Reno - 4.4M
50) Cincinnati - 4.3M, DL
51) Memphis - 4.1M, NW
52) Tucson - 3.8M


[Edited 2008-03-26 16:30:50]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-03-26 16:39:30 and read 12288 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):


On A.net, it always seems that whenever anyone posts a set of data, and gives the definition of the data they are presenting, people are always very quick to dispute it and say the original poster was using it incorrectly.

I'm not criticizing anyone and I don't think people on a.net do that. They do make sure that stats and facts are posted with the appropriate caveats. I don't disagree that this is interesting data but airlines don't make decisions about whether to serve a city based on enplanements. They are far more interested in knowing what kind of money those enplanements generate. If you're talking about subway systems, then total boardings means about the same thing from city to city. Because air fares differ markedly from city to city, actual revenue is more useful. This info is a helpful starting point though.

As for int'l traffic, the ethnic composition of cities is a major determinant of the amount of traffic that city generates and whether it is int'l or domestic. Being quite familiar with both Houston and Dallas, I would venture to say that Houston is a much more int'l city - and the oil industry has only a small part to do with it. Houston has long been the more global city and probably also has a higher percentage of Latins living there now than Dallas/Ft. Worth does. Likewise, NYC generates a huge amount of int'l traffic which I expect is far higher than other cities, partially due to its status of being one of the US' most visited cites.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-03-26 16:48:11 and read 12259 times.



Quoting Scorpy (Reply 34):
its interesting to see where the various hubs are in regards to this... I added them below.. some might be wrong but its interesting how small the O&D is of some hubs.

Especially CVG and MEM. I didn't think that CVG would have been that low! That's maybe 60% of that at PIT or CLE. PIT isn't a hub forf anyone anymore, while CLE is a small-but-growing CO hub. What is the size of DL at CVG now that they have reduced some of their service?

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-26 16:48:53 and read 12256 times.

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 34):
its interesting to see where the various hubs are in regards to this... I added them below.. some might be wrong but its interesting how small the O&D is of some hubs.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):

1) New York City - 62.6M - DL, B6, CO
2) Los Angeles - 48.4M, UA
3) Chicago - 41.3M, UA, AA
4) Miami - 32.8M, AA
5) Las Vegas - 32.5M, US
6) San Francisco - 29.5M, UA
7) Orlando - 29.3M
8) Dallas - 26.9M, AA
9) Atlanta - 26.1M, DL
10) Washington - 25.9M, UA

You missed a few:

In New York, if you're going to count Delta, you have to also count AA, which is bigger in the region than Delta.
In Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Chicago, and Dallas, you have to count Southwest - a huge player in all of the above markets.
In Washington, you have to count USAirways, too, which is a large player at Reagan.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
Being quite familiar with both Houston and Dallas, I would venture to say that Houston is a much more int'l city - and the oil industry has only a small part to do with it.

No, the oil industry is not merely "a small part" of why Houston is what it is. It is a massive, enormous, unparalleled part. I'll certainly agree with you that Houston is definitely a more international city than the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex - it has been for a long time. But let's not kid ourselves: oil/gas/energy, and related business, commerce, trade and industry that it attracts and supports (like shipping, transportation, logistics, energy-related finance/banking, etc.), has just about everything to do with that.

[Edited 2008-03-26 16:49:48]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2008-03-26 16:50:19 and read 12233 times.



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 21):
A while back, there was a thread comparing the number of businesses in the Atlanta area with the number of businesses in the metropolitan Twin Cities area. As I recall, both areas have a VERY large number of businesses headquartered there, justifying "hub" operations. I can't find the link - anyone know the one I'm talking about?

No, but yes, Minnesota has a lot of fortune 500 companies nesting here. I am not familiar with the ATL area, but I am sure the same could be said.

Best Buy, Nash Finch, General Mills/Pillsbury, Target Corp, US Bank Corp, Xcel Energy, PepsiAmericas Botteling, Amerprise, 3M, The Travelers Company, Ecolab, Land O'Lakes, SuperValu, Medtronic, Polaris, Cargill, United Health Group, Carlson Companies, Toro and of course, Northwest Airlines are all proud to call Minnesota home.

Wells Fargo has quiet a few offices up here too.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 16:53:07 and read 12236 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 37):
But let's not kid ourselves: oil/gas/energy, and related business, commerce, trade and industry that it attracts and supports (like shipping, transportation, logistics, energy-related finance/banking, etc.), has just about everything to do with that.

I would have to agree. Even a lot of immigration to Houston - like Houston's growing African and Venezuelan communities - is driven by oil connections.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 37):

You missed a few:

In New York, if you're going to count Delta, you have to also count AA, which is bigger in the region than Delta.
In Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Chicago, and Dallas, you have to count Southwest - a huge player in all of the above markets.
In Washington, you have to count USAirways, too, which is a large player at Reagan.

And let's not forget Spirit...

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Scorpy
Posted 2008-03-26 17:10:17 and read 12158 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 37):
You missed a few:In New York, if you're going to count Delta, you have to also count AA, which is bigger in the region than Delta.In Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Chicago, and Dallas, you have to count Southwest - a huge player in all of the above markets.In Washington, you have to count USAirways, too, which is a large player at Reagan.

Fair point.. i was going of declared hubs.. but you're right.. Same with AA in LAX, BOS etc. I do find it intersting how there are a few hubs so low down like CVG, MEM etc. 5 years from now.. will they still be there?

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 17:11:36 and read 12175 times.



Quoting Scorpy (Reply 40):
Same with AA in LAX, BOS etc.

AA's presence at Boston nowadays is dwindling. I'd hardly even call it a focus city.

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 40):
I do find it intersting how there are a few hubs so low down like CVG, MEM etc. 5 years from now.. will they still be there?

CVG and MEM are perfect examples of true fortress hubs. They are dominated so much by their hub airlines, that they see heavy traffic leakage to other airports. From CVG to SDF and DAY; from MEM to LIT.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Scorpy
Posted 2008-03-26 17:14:22 and read 12153 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
CVG and MEM are perfect examples of true fortress hubs. They are dominated so much by their hub airlines, that they see heavy traffic leakage to other airports. From CVG to SDF and DAY; from MEM to LIT.

True.. even to the point that since i'm currently in DTW.. i would drive to CVG before I would take a DL RJ at such high prices.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Travelin man
Posted 2008-03-26 17:25:25 and read 12109 times.

First off, thanks MAH4546 for providing good data and and a good topic of conversation.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
ONT is not a real alternative, IMO, as much as people want to make it out to be. If I have friends/relatives visit me in LA, I remind them not to fly to Ontario. It would literally take half a day to get there, pick them up, and drive back to LA. Not to mention 100 miles on my odometer.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
The idea that Ontario is in any way an alternative for Los Angeles is, to me, based on my (admittedly limited, at least relatively) experience, laughable. I don't think anybody outside of the Mayor and LAWA bureaucrats would think of it as such, and I doubt there is virtually anyone in L.A. who use Ontario on a regular basis.

Guys, you are grouping "LA" into one big blob, where it absolutely depends on where you live in Los Angeles. I live in Los Feliz (5 freeway near Los Feliz). Believe it or not, I have used ONT has an alternative (several times) when I found cheaper fares (and I didn't have to get there on Friday at 5pm).

It can take me just as long to get to LAX from my house as it does getting to ONT (take your pick in getting to LAX: through downtown, or over the Sepulveda Pass -- neither is good). And FORGET SNA (even though it is lumped into the "Los Angeles" metro). It would take over an hour to get there too.

Note, I'm not criticizing MAH for making the decision (he followed the census bureau in that respect), I'm just saying that ONT is a viable alternative to a lot of us in LA, especially if you are not leaving during the evening rush hour (getting out to ONT in the morning is a snap).

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: 102IAHexpress
Posted 2008-03-26 18:32:10 and read 11779 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):
I would have to agree. Even a lot of immigration to Houston - like Houston's growing African and Venezuelan communities - is driven by oil connections.

You're mostly wrong on that one.
There's little to no oil business between Houston and India, Pakistan, Vietnam, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico etc.... Yet expats of those countries make up Houston's largest immigrant communities.
I'm sure some Western European immigrants get H1B visas and work immediately for some of the big energy firms. But most of the immigrants including the typical Jose/Mexican, immigrated to Houston under a H2 visa to perform non-skilled labor, and the typical Mr. Patel from India probably over-stayed his tourist visa and now owns his own business, which probably has nothing to do with oil and natural gas.
Though, the immigration department at my law firm does process a lot of H1B "skilled labor" visas for engineering firms and medical service companies in Houston. Medical and engineering are really hot in Houston right now.
No doubt, energy plays a role in Houston's international growth, but it's not as large a factor as it was, say 30 years ago.

It's like comparing New York's financial industry and it's high foreign immigration rates, they really don't have anything to do with each other.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2008-03-26 18:45:59 and read 11655 times.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
It makes me wonder how NW succeeds with none of its hubs in the top 19 O/D markets.

NWA's plan works for 2 reasons: 1) connecting traffic and 2) non-competing hubs (Meaning that there is little to no competing traffic at hubs. Thus, enabling NWA to, in theory, have better control of their hub operations)

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Dellatorre
Posted 2008-03-26 18:46:12 and read 11640 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Ontario-Palm Springs, California, west of LA. It used to be part of the LA metro area until a few years ago.



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 14):
The Inland Empire an area in California east of Los Angeles, primarily encompassing Riverside and San Bernardino counties. Palm Springs, Riverside, San Bernardino, Ontario, et al are considered to be part of the Inland Empire

Thanks guys!!!

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Aerohottie
Posted 2008-03-26 18:55:24 and read 11566 times.

I wonder how a carrier would do if they were to concentrate on O&D rather than the typical hub and spoke system and link all 52 regions with all of the other 52 regions directly with at least 3 frequencies per day in each direction???
Such a carrier could focus on connecting traffic primarily for dom-int and int-int services (which is really what seems to work best anyway).

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2008-03-26 19:01:19 and read 11532 times.

I'm surprised that the O&D is what it is. Boston is only at #13? Considering each cities' location on the list of global cities, I would put it in the following order:

1. New York (12-point Alpha World City). This is where it should be.
2. Los Angeles (10-point Alpha World City). This is where it should be.
3. Chicago (10-point Alpha World City). This is where it should be.
4. San Fransisco (9-point Beta World City). This is actually #6.
5. Washington (6-point Gamma World City). This is actually #10.
6. Boston (6-point Gamma World City). This is actually #13.
7. Houston (6-point Gamma World City). This is actually #15.
8. Dallas (6-point Gamma World City). This is where it should be.
9. Miami (4-point Gamma World City). This is actually #4.
10. Atlanta (4-point Gamma World City). This is actually #9, but you could say that is where it should be.
11. Minneapolis (4-point Gamma World City). This is actually #21.

Now maybe I am a little biased being from Boston, but it seems to me that there would be more passengers travelling to Boston than Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, and Denver. Now granted these cities (except maybe Denver) have a lot of tourism, especially during the winter when people want to go to warm places. But Boston is a popular tourist destination in its own right, and for every extra tourist headed to Las Vegas I'd imagine there'd be someone headed to Boston for something else (school, business, etc.).

If you factor in international O&D, maybe we'll see something similar to my list. If you want to see where I get my info, it's right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

On the list of cities with "evidence of world city formation you have" Philadelphia (#16) with three points; Cleveland (#34), Detroit (#20), and Seattle (#14) with two points; and Baltimore (#19), Columbus (#40), Kansas City (#28), and Richmond (Not even on the list) with one point. I'm surprised that cities like Denver and St. Louis didn't make the cut (under Kansas City? And Richmond? Come on!).

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Vctony
Posted 2008-03-26 19:33:23 and read 11239 times.

I love TUS at 52. The Tucson MSA is the 52nd largest in the US and the numbers correlate quite well. Of course, a LOT of TUS O/D traffic uses PHX and not TUS as fares at PHX tend to be lower and there are nonstops from PHX on US and WN to virtually every major city in the country.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 19:36:03 and read 11238 times.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
Now maybe I am a little biased being from Boston, but it seems to me that there would be more passengers travelling to Boston than Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, and Denver.

It might seem like it, but there aren't.

Plus, four of Boston's most important O&D markets - DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York City - see lots of traffic lost to trains.

Orlando and Las Vegas are the two biggest tourist draws in the United States, and most visitors come by plane.

Denver is geographically isolated. To get out of there or into there, you are going to take a plane. Plus, many people going to ski in Colorado will fly into DEN and rent a car and drive out to the ski resorts, as it can often save money.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
Considering each cities' location on the list of global cities, I would put it in the following order:

This isn't an opinion poll. These are actual domestic O&D figures based on MSA populations that have nothing to do with where a city ranks on a world scale. Check out reply 16 for some thoughts as to why some cities rank higher/lower than people might expect them to. The facts are what they are though, there's no changing them.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):

If you factor in international O&D, maybe we'll see something similar to my list.

Just guessing here, but factoring in international, you'd probably see something more like:

1) NYC
2) LA
3) Chicago
4) San Fran (including SJC)
5) Miami (adding international traffic won't see it fall; it is a larger international O&D market than Boston, DC, etc.).
6) DC
7) Boston
8) Houston
9) Dallas
10) Atlanta

[Edited 2008-03-26 19:40:19]

[Edited 2008-03-26 19:41:25]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Caljn
Posted 2008-03-26 19:50:58 and read 11114 times.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
but it seems to me that there would be more passengers travelling to Boston than Las Vegas, Orlando,

You're joking, right? I don't have figures but I believe Orlando and Las Vegas are the #1 and #2 tourist destinatons within the US...in addition to their burgeoning populations.  crowded 

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: GatiBOSGRU
Posted 2008-03-26 20:31:32 and read 10827 times.



Quoting Caljn (Reply 51):
You're joking, right? I don't have figures but I believe Orlando and Las Vegas are the #1 and #2 tourist destinatons within the US...in addition to their burgeoning populations.

I think he meant in general, not only for tourism. Boston is a very big tourist destination as well, not saying it matches LAS or MCO, But we also have a number of students from out-of-state that travel to/from home, alot of business travellers as well. I dont necessarely think it should be number two on the list, but I kind of get what BOStonsox is saying.

just my  twocents 

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2008-03-26 20:32:10 and read 10828 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 50):
This isn't an opinion poll. These are actual domestic O&D figures based on MSA populations that have nothing to do with where a city ranks on a world scale. Check out reply 16 for some thoughts as to why some cities rank higher/lower than people might expect them to. The facts are what they are though, there's no changing them.

No, of course it isn't. But if I had to guess which cities had the highest O&D, that is how I would do it. Although when you factor in trains, cars, busses, and leakage to alternate airports it makes more sense. But I think their world city rankings has a lot to do with O&D, since the survey that was done factored in things like MSA, tourist demand, businesses, education, and the like, which are all things that increase the demand for travel in a market.

Quoting Caljn (Reply 51):
You're joking, right? I don't have figures but I believe Orlando and Las Vegas are the #1 and #2 tourist destinatons within the US...in addition to their burgeoning populations.

O&D isn't all tourism. For every extra tourist going to Orlando and Las Vegas I would think there would be someone flying to Boston for school, work, visiting family, etc. A lot of people travel for business, and there are a lot more businesses in Boston than there are in Las Vegas or Orlando.

I'm not saying the table is wrong. I'm just saying that the placement of these cities are different from what I would imagine. After all, who would have guessed that not only does Providence have more O&D than Buffalo, but also CINCINATTI and MEMPHIS! Two hubs! Now that is bizarre.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 20:56:38 and read 10664 times.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 53):
For every extra tourist going to Orlando and Las Vegas I would think there would be someone flying to Boston for school, work, visiting family, etc. A lot of people travel for business, and there are a lot more businesses in Boston than there are in Las Vegas or Orlando.

It's not 1:1. Leisure travelers account for the majority of flyers, hence one reason why coach cabins are bigger, or why airlines send high-density configured planes on leisure routes.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2008-03-26 21:08:19 and read 10588 times.

All in all, interesting data. Thanks!

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
On A.net, it always seems that whenever anyone posts a set of data, and gives the definition of the data they are presenting, people are always very quick to dispute it and say the original poster was using it incorrectly.

I agree. In this case, MAH4546 is using factual data within a quite commonly used differentiation of metro areas. It is what it is. But...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
ONT is actively marketed as an alternative airport to LAX, and you took it out because of the Census' idiotic definition of MSAs. Los Angeles is the economic engine for the IE and thathas to be included. San Jose is another one.

...I might respectfully suggest to MAH4546 that the Census Bureau's use of "Combined Statistical Areas" might satisfy his need for an officially recognized metropolitan region that does not mince up commonly regarded large metro areas, particularly for the very large agglomerations. Thus, there is an official "New York-Newark-Bridgeport" CSA that would include SFB Airport; "Boston-Worcester-Manchester" would include MHT and PVD. "Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside" CSA would include ONT (on the downside, due to the use of county boundaries, that CSA extends from Oxnard to literally the Colorado RIver, and a large chunk of uninhabited Mojave Desert. But, like the rest, it is what it is.)

Using this CSA grouping, LA Metro remains ranked 2nd, but San Francisco Bay increases from 6th to 4th, and Washington-Baltimore goes from 10th to 3rd, ahead of Chicago! Granted, there are arguments to be made about who would really travel to one or the other airport from the extremes of a given region. Still, we have to draw some conventions somewhere.

Here's a very large PDF map if anyone's interested: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/maps/m...ws_html/cbsa_csa_us_wall_1206.html

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
I doubt there is virtually anyone in L.A. who use Ontario on a regular basis.

I'm glad you said "virtually" because that gives you wiggle room in case you are wrong, which you are. Like others have said, it's a big metro area, parts of LA County and other sections of the metro area will find ONT the better option at times. I've done it myself. Isn't ExpressJet seeing some of it's higher load factors on the ONT segments? Must be a reason for that. Surely they aren't duping everyone a la SkyBus  Wink


-Rampart

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-26 21:12:37 and read 10577 times.



Quoting Rampart (Reply 55):
(on the downside, due to the use of county boundaries, that CSA extends from Oxnard to literally the Colorado RIver, and a large chunk of uninhabited Mojave Desert. But, like the rest, it is what it is.)

There is good reason to extend the Los Angeles metro to include all of Ventura County, as it is also centered economically on Los Angeles. As far as it extending out through the Mojave and Sonoran Deserts, I would argue that some of those extreme desert areas, perhaps anywhere beyond Palm Springs, are more San Diego or Phoenix centered. Fine tuning is definately needed.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2008-03-26 21:17:44 and read 10549 times.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 55):
that the Census Bureau's use of "Combined Statistical Areas" might satisfy his need for an officially recognized metropolitan region that does not mince up commonly regarded large metro areas

It does combine some, but some, IMO, it takes too far (i.e. "Boston-Providence"), while other cities don't belong to any CSA whatsoever (i.e. Tampa, San Diego, Miami).

I do think there is a case to be made for including SJC with SF, ONT with LA, and BWI with WAS, though, which would change the rankings as per you calculated. I think combining BOS with PVD and MHT is pretty ridiculous, but it would move Boston up a few slots (to right behind Orlando, I think).

[Edited 2008-03-26 21:19:48]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2008-03-26 21:22:22 and read 10509 times.

Mah:

Thanks for the data. It looked right on the money to me.

I'd be interested in knowing if that information was broken down by carrier....I play with that info although the way I get it is pretty convoluted.

I can get the O&D, by carrier, in markets which generate 200 passengers per day or greater. That makes up about 85% of all domestic enplanements. You have to make the assumption that traffic in smaller markets (the remaining 15% or so of all passengers) will be distributed like the traffic in those larger markets.

It usually gets you pretty close.

A couple of quick notes:

Houston vs Dallas. Dallas boarding more passengers is nothing new. It has been that way since time immemorial. Trans-Texas Airways (now Continental) used to have their "hub" at Houston but they boarded more passengers at Love Field, year after year. Everyone did. It's just the way it is. And for all Houston's pretensions about being an "international city", Houston is still, in many respects, a blue collar town. And white collar cities (like Dallas) generate more airline passengers than white collar cities of a similar size.

Of that O&D Traffic....someone up the thread a ways was looking at "hubs" of various carriers and how large the hub was.

O&D Market Share can be intriguing.

Chicago UA 31.2% AA 28.8% WN 24.5%
NYC CO 28.3% B6 24.0%
DFW (incl DAL) AA 58.8% WN 23.4%
HOU (incl IAH) CO 56.7% WN 31.6%
ATL DL 55.4% FL 28.0%
PHX WN 45.3% US 28.8%
LAX WN 28.2% UA 20.9% AA 19.1%

Like I said, I generated those numbers using DOT data from all markets generating >200 psgrs per day. If you have a market you want me to run, post it. If you have better data, share it.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: DTWAGENT
Posted 2008-03-26 21:25:49 and read 10507 times.

I just read the ATL was the #1 airport in the USA and the World for total movements/pass. So I find it hard to believe that they are at number 9. As far as DTW goes. They also get some traffic (auto) from TOL and the southern counties of Michigan. As for flights: The come into DTW from: GRR,FNT,KSAW,CMX,TVC,Alpena,LAN,AZO, MSB,TOL,FWA,SBN, and a few Canadan cities. DTW is expanding their international service also in response to NK and USA3000.

Chuck

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2008-03-26 21:45:44 and read 10398 times.

Quote:
I just read the ATL was the #1 airport in the USA and the World for total movements/pass. So I find it hard to believe that they are at number 9.

Believe it. I know you've heard the old saying "if you're flying Delta. the road to hades will require a connection in Atlanta." Having flown thru there far too many times, it is unreal at just how few people going in to Atlanta are actually going in to Atlanta. Everybody scrambles out of the jetway and heads for the nearest tv monitor to see what gate they have to go to while a handful of folks actually head to baggage claim.

Think of just how many of those aircraft movements in and out of Atlanta are RJs or Embraers or ATRs. A whole lot of 'em. But the main reason that there are so many aircraft movements even though the place only ranks #9 in o&d traffic is that so many folks are connecting.

I noticed you are from DTW. It's amazing the kind of stranglehold NW has there....even in the O&D realm. By my numbers NW carries 61.2% of Detroit's O&D traffic, with NK 1 distant 2md with 15.6% and WN with 6.8%. Now THAT is what you call a fortress hub.

Just for fun I just finished running the numbers for MCO, since it was way up high on the list. When you are talking O&D, WN has 27.9%, FL 14.7%, DL 11.1%, & B6 9.7%.

[Edited 2008-03-26 21:59:23]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-03-26 22:05:07 and read 10334 times.



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 23):
Wow, I'm surprised to see Dallas is bigger than Houston! With all the international airlines at IAH and hardly any at DFW makes you wonder what's going on with these cities and why?

Well DFW is a larger metro area than the Houston area, however this is only domestic traffic. Houston would be the larger for international traffic.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
As for int'l traffic, the ethnic composition of cities is a major determinant of the amount of traffic that city generates and whether it is int'l or domestic. Being quite familiar with both Houston and Dallas, I would venture to say that Houston is a much more int'l city - and the oil industry has only a small part to do with it. Houston has long been the more global city and probably also has a higher percentage of Latins living there now than Dallas/Ft. Worth does. Likewise, NYC generates a huge amount of int'l traffic which I expect is far higher than other cities, partially due to its status of being one of the US' most visited cites.

I also am quite familiar with DFW and Houston. Heres the difference I see:

Houston is Texas's gateway to the world. Its Texas international city. For the most part Houston has most of Texas's immigrants from other countries. Houston is also a big player in the Oil and Medical Industries (not to metion NASA). The port is also helps make Houston an internation player. Which explains why Houston has more international flights and traffic.

Dallas is Texas's gateway to America. The Dallas/Fort Worth area is home to one of the highest concentrations of Corporate HQ's in America. Information Technology is huge there. The financial industry is also big there. DFW is a larger player in Americas economy. It explains why there is more O&D traffic there domestically.

Both are very important to the Nation and the worlds economy in which they both play big, but different roles.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
I'm surprised that the O&D is what it is. Boston is only at #13? Considering each cities' location on the list of global cities, I would put it in the following order:

Nothing wrong with guess, just know that they might not be right. And in this case they arent.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
Now maybe I am a little biased being from Boston

Yes you are!  Wink But we all have are biases.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 50):
1) NYC
2) LA
3) Chicago
4) San Fran (including SJC)
5) Miami (adding international traffic won't see it fall; it is a larger international O&D market than Boston, DC, etc.).
6) DC
7) Boston
8) Houston
9) Dallas
10) Atlanta

Give or take a space or two thats probably pretty accurate.

Thanks for the data Mark, I enjoyed reading it.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2008-03-26 22:07:54 and read 10320 times.

Many thanks for this data-- course, a real gem would be int'l O&D numbers..... think yer up to the task Markster?  Wink

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 2):
I'd expect that number to increase as more people return to the area.

I'd say moreso for tourists as opposed to residents

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 27):
much of BTR's metro area population uses MSY as their airport of choice.

by Marino's admission, more than half.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2008-03-27 07:02:37 and read 9136 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 57):
It does combine some, but some, IMO, it takes too far (i.e. "Boston-Providence"), while other cities don't belong to any CSA whatsoever (i.e. Tampa, San Diego, Miami).

I do think there is a case to be made for including SJC with SF, ONT with LA, and BWI with WAS, though, which would change the rankings as per you calculated. I think combining BOS with PVD and MHT is pretty ridiculous, but it would move Boston up a few slots (to right behind Orlando, I think).

Like others have said, the classifications at any scale are imperfect. I do have friends from south of Boston, easilty within their MSA, who prefer to use PVD. That's just anecdotal, but I can imagine it's prevalent. WN banks on it to some extent. Including Providence, the Boston CSA is still more compact than some (like NYC, San Francisco, Balt-Wash).

I'm not sure why the Census hasn't got around to lumping some of the other agglomerations into official CSAs. South Florida and West Florida are good examples. Salt Lake-Provo, Chicago-Milwaukee and Detroit-Toledo could be as well, just guessing. San Diego is its own metro area and market, however, with no logical combination with a nearby urban area. Too much discontinuity between them and Orange County, for instance.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
As far as it extending out through the Mojave and Sonoran Deserts, I would argue that some of those extreme desert areas, perhaps anywhere beyond Palm Springs, are more San Diego or Phoenix centered. Fine tuning is definately needed.

I see your point, but look at the map again. If anything, the eastern half of San Bernardino County would gravitate to Las Vegas. But, the rest is closer -- in miles, mind and in economics -- to the LA metro area, than to Phoenix or San Diego. Census Bureau seems to keep county boundaries sacrosanct, no dividing allowed! Urban geographers are free to go to town on some alternate methodology. Get published. Become famous.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: DesertJets
Posted 2008-03-27 07:33:54 and read 8987 times.

Even though the point has been discussed and moved on from I do have a question/comment about some of the confusion as to why the O&D numbers are so big at ATL or DFW.

Granted both are rather sizeable metro areas in excess of 5 million, but to what degree does having an airline mega hub stimulate additional local traffic? Would Atlanta in the absence of a 1000 flight a day DL hub and a 250 flight a day AirTran hub has as much local traffic? Same goes for Dallas.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-03-27 07:42:22 and read 8953 times.

From these O&Ds I'd say CLT is at risk of losings its hub status....STL is nearly 2m larger than CLT in OD but significantly less busy. As well RDU isnt a hub and it has the same OD as CLT and isnt a hub


MKE at 5.5m is significantly underperforming given its population. Fl was right that they can stimulate the market and the FL/YX merger would have likely resulted in more jobs not less.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-03-27 07:43:09 and read 8945 times.

Of course MEM and CVG are in big trouble and clearly would be eliminated with a NW/DL merger

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-03-27 07:48:20 and read 8910 times.



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 38):
No, but yes, Minnesota has a lot of fortune 500 companies nesting

I read that MSP has more fortune 500 companeis than any other US city except NYC

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2008-03-27 07:54:45 and read 8885 times.



Quoting DesertJets (Reply 64):
Granted both are rather sizeable metro areas in excess of 5 million, but to what degree does having an airline mega hub stimulate additional local traffic?

Depends on the nature of that hub. In the case of ATL, I would agree that having the big DL/FL hubs stimulates traffic because the competition between the two drives down fares. However, in the case of the CVG hub (not a mega-hub but still a decent 350+ flight hub), the fortress hub status drives fares up and suffocates the local market.

As mentioned earlier, geography plays a big part in the ability to substitute air service with auto or rail. Places like ATL, DFW, SLC, DEN, LAS, MIA are isolated enough that they rely more heavily on air service. Cities like BOS, NYC, PHL, WAS, DTW are close enough to other metros that they lose out on some air service.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-03-27 08:14:21 and read 8790 times.



Quoting DesertJets (Reply 64):
Granted both are rather sizeable metro areas in excess of 5 million, but to what degree does having an airline mega hub stimulate additional local traffic? Would Atlanta in the absence of a 1000 flight a day DL hub and a 250 flight a day AirTran hub has as much local traffic? Same goes for Dallas.

To a certain degree yes, but I think these markets tend to stand on their own as well. Granted that the majority of people traveling to these cities are traveling through these cities, but DFW and Atlanta are the fastest growing MSA's in the USA. O&D traffic for both cities are going to steadily increase. And even though I would say Houston is far more international than either Atlanta or Dallas, both Atlanta and Dallas are becoming more and more international.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-27 08:34:17 and read 8707 times.



Quoting Rampart (Reply 63):
If anything, the eastern half of San Bernardino County would gravitate to Las Vegas.

Some parts might, but I think you would have to go at least as far as Barstow for that to be true.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 63):
But, the rest is closer -- in miles, mind and in economics -- to the LA metro area, than to Phoenix or San Diego.

I was talking more about eastern Riverside County.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Skibum9
Posted 2008-03-27 08:38:33 and read 8696 times.

Quoting Lesismore (Reply 3):
Those rankings make sense, somewhat correlating with MSA ranking.

There is absolutely no coorelation between MSA and O&D. For example, the Cincinnati MSA is now the 24th largest in the country, yet O&D is the 50th. This really points to the fact that there is a considerable amount of O&D from Cincinnati that is bleeding to other airports, like DAY, IND, CMH, SDF and LEX. In fact, if you were looking at the MSAs, Cincinnati just passed Cleveland as being the largest metro area in the state of Ohio. Logic would say that if fares at CVG were on par with all other airports, its O&D would place it up around 33, above Cleveland and close to Pittsburgh.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...080327/NEWS01/803270372/1056/COL02

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
50) Cincinnati - 4.3M - Delta's high-fares scare traffic away to Dayton, Louisville

Very true. I am flying to SAN this weekend. I am flying out of DAY and connecting in ATL as the airfare is almost $1000 cheaper.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 36):
I didn't think that CVG would have been that low!

Amazing how pricing can KILL O&D!

[Edited 2008-03-27 08:40:48]

[Edited 2008-03-27 08:41:52]

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2008-03-27 08:51:36 and read 8606 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 71):
Amazing how pricing can KILL O&D!

Pricing and relatively close airports that are in other MSAs. For a lot of folks in the Cincinnati MSA DAY is not much further away from them than CVG is.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: AAJFKSJUBKLYN
Posted 2008-03-27 10:34:07 and read 8165 times.

1) New York City - 62.6M
2) Los Angeles - 48.4M
3) Chicago - 41.3M
4) Miami - 32.8M
8) Dallas - 26.9M

Looks a lot like AA's Hub and Focus City List.

Sorry, first thing I realized I read the list.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2008-03-27 10:40:01 and read 8123 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Some parts might, but I think you would have to go at least as far as Barstow for that to be true.

Agreed. It is a huge county. Similar to Mass. + Conn. + RI in area!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
I was talking more about eastern Riverside County.

Ah, got it. I can see parts of them gravitating south.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2008-03-27 11:30:24 and read 7882 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 67):
I read that MSP has more fortune 500 companeis than any other US city except NYC

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/states/MN.html
34 500 companies, a lot more if we did 1000 companies.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Joeman
Posted 2008-03-27 11:34:06 and read 7878 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 71):
Cincinnati just passed Cleveland as being the largest metro area in the state of Ohio.

According to the article cited, the 15 county Cincinnati metro region including 7 counties in Kentucky has now exceeded the 3 county measurement of Cleveland (Cuyahoga County), Elyria (Lorain County) and Mentor (Lake County). I wonder why other neighboring counties to Cleveland like Medina and Geauga are excluded.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-03-28 06:04:47 and read 7438 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 71):
Amazing how pricing can KILL O&D!

I guess we can say the same about US at PIT. US was the most expensive airline in the industry at one point, and their fares were rediculous out of PIT, even for the high-yielding business traveler. People went up to CLE for lower fares on WN and the like...

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-28 06:11:47 and read 7431 times.



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 75):
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/states/MN.html
34 500 companies, a lot more if we did 1000 companies.

The link you provided, to the 2007 FORTUNE 500, does not show Minnesota, or Minneapolis/St. Paul, at the top for Fortune 500 headquarters. Not even close.

In the rankings of state-by-state, Minnesota is just barely in the top-10:

1. New York - 57
2. Texas - 56
3. California - 52
4. Illinois - 33
5. Ohio - 28
6. Pennsylvania - 25
7. New Jersey - 24
8. Michigan - 22
9. Minnesota - 20
10. Virginia - 17

And as for cities/metro areas, Minneapolis/St. Paul is definitely not #1. It's just outside the top 5 for U.S. cities:

1. New York - 45
2. Houston - 22
3. Dallas/Fort Worth - 16
4. Atlanta - 12
5. Chicago - 11
6. Minneapolis - 8

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2008-03-28 10:43:01 and read 7246 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 78):
The link you provided, to the 2007 FORTUNE 500, does not show Minnesota, or Minneapolis/St. Paul, at the top for Fortune 500 headquarters. Not even close.

I never said we were the top. I said we had a lot here but we are nowhere near the top.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2008-03-28 10:55:13 and read 7237 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 78):
Minnesota is just barely in the top-10



Quoting Commavia (Reply 78):
And as for cities/metro areas, Minneapolis/St. Paul is definitely not #1. It's just outside the top 5 for U.S. cities:

Pretty impressive given the size of their metro area and competing cities regionally. They're overperforming, ranked 6 in headquarters for a metro area ranked 16th in population. They beat out the likes of Washington, San Francisco, Boston, Detroit, Miami, Seattle, and Phoenix. I do believe that would have positive support for O&D.

For the state rankings, Top 10, even "barely", means that 40 other states are lower than you. Nothing to sneeze at.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-03-28 12:17:11 and read 7156 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 78):
And as for cities/metro areas, Minneapolis/St. Paul is definitely not #1. It's just outside the top 5 for U.S. cities:

1. New York - 45
2. Houston - 22
3. Dallas/Fort Worth - 16
4. Atlanta - 12
5. Chicago - 11
6. Minneapolis - 8

My beloved Los Angeles isnt up there huh?  Sad

Not surprising, LA isnt a cheap place to do business.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: B752OS
Posted 2008-03-28 13:21:06 and read 7095 times.



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 13):
As far as I'm concerned the numbers seem made up. Atlanta seems ridiculously high while Philadelphia and Houston, two of the five largest metro areas in the country don't even crack the top ten. I'd believe it if the raw numbers were provided but the earlier request for a source went unanswered and that always reeks to me of impropriety regardless of the situation. Surely you must have a spreadsheet or something you can link to with all of this info and the reliable sources.

Of course Atlanta is high, when you consider that ATL is the only airport with decent air service within a 4 hour ride radius from Atlanta where PHL loses pax to BWI and EWR.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 50):
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 48):
Now maybe I am a little biased being from Boston, but it seems to me that there would be more passengers travelling to Boston than Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, and Denver.

It might seem like it, but there aren't.

Plus, four of Boston's most important O&D markets - DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York City - see lots of traffic lost to trains.

No doubt BOS loses pax, but so don't BWI, DCA, IAD, JFK, LGA, EWR, etc. Between busses alone, there are over 25 daily trips and Amtrak runs another 9-12 depending on the day. It doesn't surprise me that cities like Orlando and Las Vegas are high up, those cities depend on tourism to drive their economies.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Travelin man
Posted 2008-03-28 16:18:13 and read 6964 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 81):
My beloved Los Angeles isnt up there huh?

Not surprising, LA isnt a cheap place to do business.

Well, the LA-area has 22 Fortune 500 headquarters (since I believe that list had D/FW as a single line item, I am assuming they are grouping by metro areas)?

64 Walt Disney Burbank
70 Ingram Micro Santa Ana
73 Northrop Grumman Los Angeles
91 Countrywide Financial Calabasas
124 Occidental Petroleum Los Angeles
160 DIRECTV Group El Segundo
163 Computer Sciences El Segundo
171 Amgen Thousand Oaks
189 Health Net Woodland Hills
192 Edison International Rosemead
228 KB Home Los Angeles
289 First American Corp. Santa Ana
296 Hilton Hotels Beverly Hills
322 Jacobs Engineering Grp. Pasadena
367 Dole Food Westlake Village
402 Reliance Steel & Alum. Los Angeles
406 Mattel El Segundo
412 Avery Dennison Pasadena
437 Pacific Life Newport Beach
458 DaVita El Segundo
467 Ryland Group Calabasas
498 Western Digital Lake Forest

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-28 16:23:45 and read 6960 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 81):

Not surprising, LA isnt a cheap place to do business.

One, as WorldTraveler pointed out, the list was incorrect. Two, the expense of doing business here is overrated. If California were so business unfriendly, it wouldn't be the biggest economic engine, by far, that this country has.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-03-28 16:49:46 and read 6914 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 84):
One, as WorldTraveler pointed out, the list was incorrect.

I thought it might not be. I would think LA would at least be in the top 5.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-28 17:09:42 and read 6883 times.

The list was based solely on the top cities' headquarters counts added together. I did not look beyond the 'top cities' list, which apparently shows the LA region tied for #2 with Houston, after #1 New York. As others have said - not surprising, as LA is after all the second largest metro area in America. Yes, the cost of doing business in substantially higher than, say, Texas or Georgia, but it's also an enormous economic engine and a massive population center.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-03-28 17:11:17 and read 6880 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):
Yes, the cost of doing business in substantially higher than, say, Texas or Georgia, but it's also an enormous economic engine and a massive population center.

That all depends. It is much cheaper to get a lot of goods into and out of Los Angeles than Texas or Georgia.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-03-28 17:12:01 and read 6876 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):
The list was based solely on the top cities' headquarters counts added together. I did not look beyond the 'top cities' list, which apparently shows the LA region tied for #2 with Houston, after #1 New York. As others have said - not surprising, as LA is after all the second largest metro area in America. Yes, the cost of doing business in substantially higher than, say, Texas or Georgia, but it's also an enormous economic engine and a massive population center.

Outside of LA, is the rest of the list correct?

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Commavia
Posted 2008-03-28 17:15:03 and read 6872 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 88):
Outside of LA, is the rest of the list correct?

I believe so, as I don't think there are that many other major metro areas that were split up on the list, but I could be mistaken.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2008-03-31 05:04:48 and read 6580 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
I'm not criticizing anyone and I don't think people on a.net do that. They do make sure that stats and facts are posted with the appropriate caveats. I don't disagree that this is interesting data but airlines don't make decisions about whether to serve a city based on enplanements. They are far more interested in knowing what kind of money those enplanements generate. If you're talking about subway systems, then total boardings means about the same thing from city to city. Because air fares differ markedly from city to city, actual revenue is more useful. This info is a helpful starting point though.

As for int'l traffic, the ethnic composition of cities is a major determinant of the amount of traffic that city generates and whether it is int'l or domestic. Being quite familiar with both Houston and Dallas, I would venture to say that Houston is a much more int'l city - and the oil industry has only a small part to do with it. Houston has long been the more global city and probably also has a higher percentage of Latins living there now than Dallas/Ft. Worth does. Likewise, NYC generates a huge amount of int'l traffic which I expect is far higher than other cities, partially due to its status of being one of the US' most visited cites.

How did we know that when we looked at that great list by MAH4546 that a certain person would not like it because it did not show a certain city in the best possible light. How dare MAH4546 do that!!!

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2008-03-31 08:00:07 and read 6468 times.



Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 44):
No doubt, energy plays a role in Houston's international growth, but it's not as large a factor as it was, say 30 years ago.

The role energy plays is seasonal and not necessarily regular. I can't tell about Houston 30 years ago, but Houston today is not the same as even a couple of years ago. Houston was a roll up to exactly 9-11. It was bound to be the second financial center of the US and the likes of Enron and Dynegy were going to take over the world. In the space of a few weeks that wave came onto a sudden void. Now Houston is blazing again and it is almost all oil. Energy trading is coming back, but a lot of it is sprouting in and around New York.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Miller22
Posted 2008-03-31 08:04:07 and read 6464 times.

A much more detailed list of domestic O&D traffic by airport is available at:

http://paxdata.airlineempires.net

Shows O&D data for any city in the US for Q3 2007

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2008-03-31 09:40:01 and read 6365 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 78):
And as for cities/metro areas, Minneapolis/St. Paul is definitely not #1. It's just outside the top 5 for U.S. cities:

1. New York - 45
2. Houston - 22
3. Dallas/Fort Worth - 16
4. Atlanta - 12
5. Chicago - 11
6. Minneapolis - 8

What you didn't include in the list is the companies based in those metro areas. How can you combine Dallas and Fort Worth but not Minneapolis and St. Paul? Sounds like skewing of statistics. That list, for example, wouldn't include Northwest Airlines as they are based in Eagan, a suburb of St. Paul. When combining metro areas, Minneapolis/St. Paul, indeed comes in 3rd, after New York City and Houston with 27 Fortune 500 and 38 Fortune 1000 companies in the immediate metropolitan area.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: CLE757
Posted 2008-03-31 10:09:59 and read 6326 times.

With the new flights CO is adding, CLE should move past PIT and higher.

Topic: RE: The 52 Largest Domestic O&D Markets
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-03-31 15:19:49 and read 6118 times.



Quoting CLE757 (Reply 94):
With the new flights CO is adding, CLE should move past PIT and higher.

It should, even if WN adds more flights at PIT in the future. Hopefully we'll hear something soon about what WN is doing with PIT...


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