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Topic: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2008-04-11 02:51:20 and read 7809 times.

British Airways has delayed moving most of its long-haul flights to Heathrow's new Terminal 5 until June.

"It is only sensible to ensure that Terminal 5 is operating consistently at a high standard before the move begins," said BA boss Willie Walsh.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7342263.stm

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2008-04-11 02:55:18 and read 7798 times.

Indeed. That's very sensible. BA and BAA need to work through all the problems before moving any more flights. I'm sure BAA are unhappy about this, but they are largely responsible.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-11 02:56:28 and read 7786 times.

Apparently, they're going to use the additional time to provide extra training for the staff in Terminal 4. Pity the poor folk that already moved to T5 didn't get that.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BCAL
Posted 2008-04-11 02:58:13 and read 7771 times.

And more on the BA website

click

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-11 03:00:14 and read 7762 times.

Very sensible . BA cant afford anymore issues at T5 . This will give them the time they need to make sure everything is done that needs to be done.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: ManchesterMAN
Posted 2008-04-11 03:06:38 and read 7726 times.

What about gate space in T4? Will this affect any of the other airlines due to move over there?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Gkirk
Posted 2008-04-11 03:10:12 and read 7698 times.

So people transferring to long haul flights at LHR are still getting screwed with a change of terminal?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2008-04-11 03:18:39 and read 7651 times.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 6):
So people transferring to long haul flights at LHR are still getting screwed with a change of terminal?

And your latest anti BA suggestion is ?

Which would passengers prefer, another ill prepared move, resulting in flight cancellations and another baggage mountain. Or a few more weeks of transferring between terminals, which after all has been the norm at LHR for the past 40 years or so.

BA needs to ensure that they have got everything right this time before the move, and BAA needs toi ensure that the building work on the terminal is actually finished; bearing in mind that BAA have been telling us the completion date for around 2 years, but half the lifts didn't work on day 1, and passengers reported pallets of building materials scattered around

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-11 03:19:40 and read 7651 times.

´This is the only right thing BA can do. But I really hope it wont get any further delays.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Gkirk
Posted 2008-04-11 03:20:30 and read 7637 times.



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
And your latest anti BA suggestion is ?

They should have had things sorted to avoid all this mess. Thankfully people have other choices than BA (or London Airways  Wink )

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2008-04-11 03:23:06 and read 7621 times.

I think its a very good move by BA management. Now they'll have time to sort out the operation and get it working properly before the majority of longhaul services move across. It will also give them and BAA a few more weeks to iron out any problems with the baggage system so that when the larger aircraft move across( hence more bags) there will be no issues.

I dont know how this will affect the other airlines' moving into the space that BA had previously occupied. I think they may have something to say about it

Lee

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Gkirk
Posted 2008-04-11 03:25:17 and read 7614 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 10):
Now they'll have time to sort out the operation and get it working properly before the majority of longhaul services move across.

But surely this should have been seen to before T5 opened?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 03:25:42 and read 7614 times.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 9):
They should have had things sorted to avoid all this mess.

Like DEN, HKG etc etc when they opened. Some people have very short memories

No-one could have forseen the tech problems; each company had too much at stake to knowingly f$$k it up.

Training, or lack of, is something directly attributable to BA, however.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: APYu
Posted 2008-04-11 03:33:40 and read 7588 times.

Gutted - I had a trip to the US booked in May as I wanted to try that Champagne Bar Sad

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Gkirk
Posted 2008-04-11 03:43:20 and read 7542 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 12):
No-one could have forseen the tech problems



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 12):
Like DEN, HKG etc etc when they opened. Some people have very short memories

 Wink

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Pilot21
Posted 2008-04-11 04:49:50 and read 7345 times.



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
BA needs to ensure that they have got everything right this time before the move, and BAA needs to ensure that the building work on the terminal is actually finished; bearing in mind that BAA have been telling us the completion date for around 2 years, but half the lifts didn't work on day 1, and passengers reported pallets of building materials scattered around

Completely agree, and can confirm the place still was a building site when I passed through it on April 1st. Given this was a building that was 'handed over' almost 1 yr ago to BAA/BA for familiarisation and general fitting out, the finish in parts was appalling. Ceiling tiles were missing in large sections exposing wires/air conditioning and heating ducts and there was sawdust/wood chippings and glass panels/railings on certain sections not finished/missing. On the numerous escalators from the first outside Pier back to the main terminal the floors looked scuffed/worn and dirty.

While the visual impression of the building from the outside looked impressive, in the arrivals section after a long haul flight overnight from Hong Kong, I was shocked that the building had been allowed to be opened in such a state, it was a disgrace to BAA & BA

Pilot21

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2008-04-11 05:02:04 and read 7301 times.

This transfer delay is the number-one news item on BBC this lunchtime.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: ManchesterMAN
Posted 2008-04-11 05:24:10 and read 7239 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 12):
Like DEN, HKG etc etc when they opened. Some people have very short memories

I actually don't see how you can even compare DEN and HKG to T5. These were complete airport moves. All BA has done is moved SOME of their flights to the other side of the same airfield. Frankly the move that BA has just made is on a much smaller scale than DEN and HKG and they should have learned from these problems anyway or perhaps not been so publicly confident that T5 was going to work like clockwork from the start.

I wasted 5+ hours of a saturday morning to attend a trial at T5 so this sort of thing wouldn't happen and so did many thousands of other people.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 05:36:27 and read 7194 times.



Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 17):
I actually don't see how you can even compare DEN and HKG to T5.

Quite easily; same problems, different scale. Ultimately though, they screwed airline ops equally successfully at the beginning.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BCAL
Posted 2008-04-11 05:37:33 and read 7196 times.

The airlines that were due to move to Terminal 4 on 30 April will now probably be seeking some compensation for the inconvenience, so who will be liable - BA? BAA?

Bearing in mind that already BA will have to pay out GBP 12 million in compensation to passengers as a result of the T5 chaos, it just makes me think that had they spent the time and money to ensure that all their staff had been properly trained and be made familiar with T5, and all systems were thoroughly tested before the first flight landed, the cost would have been a fraction of GB 12 million and BA would have save a fortune not to mention the damage to the BA brand.

I remember that when I attended a T5 trial, a senior BAA spokesman gave a prep talk to participants and said that T5 will set a benchmark for international airports worldwide. Seems the benchmark is a chaotic opening, baggage systems that break down and total disorganisation.
 duck 

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Elite
Posted 2008-04-11 06:21:00 and read 7097 times.

Does anyone know if the JFK-LHR route is affected or is it still T5?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-11 06:38:01 and read 7040 times.

Quoting Elite (Reply 20):
Does anyone know if the JFK-LHR route is affected or is it still T5?

JFK will not go to T5 until June


Longhaul flights operating from Terminal 4 are:

Abu Dhabi - Muscat Delhi Montreal
Abuja Denver Mumbai (Bombay)
Accra Dhaka Nairobi
Bahrain - Doha Dubai Nassau - Grand Cayman
Baltimore Entebbe Newark
Bangalore Houston Philadelphia
Beijing Islamabad Phoenix
Boston JFK Rio De Janeiro
Cairo Kolkata (Calcutta) Sao Paulo - Buenos Aires
Calgary Kuwait Seattle
Cape Town Lagos Shanghai
Chennai Luanda Tel-Aviv
Chicago Lusaka Toronto
Dallas Mauritius Washington
Dar Es Salaam Mexico -

[Edited 2008-04-11 06:38:52]

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Zoom1018
Posted 2008-04-11 06:41:22 and read 7026 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 17):I actually don't see how you can even compare DEN and HKG to T5.
Quite easily; same problems, different scale. Ultimately though, they screwed airline ops equally successfully at the beginning.

How long did it take HKG to resolve the problems? Comparing an overall airport move and a terminal move is funny... and HKG was like ten years ago...

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 06:51:14 and read 6984 times.



Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 22):
Comparing an overall airport move and a terminal move is funny...

Not at all. The principle is exactly the same, just on a different scale. The end result though, when an airline is moving lock stock and barrel, be it 500 metres down the road or 50 km down the road, if it goes tits up, it has exactly the same effect on an airline's operations.

BA, in a bizarre sense, is lucky in that they can hold back on some of the move to sort out the $hit. Relocating to a completely new airport doesn't give you that luxury.

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 22):
HKG was like ten years ago...

The first motor car was over 100 years ago. By your rationale, cars should no longer have technical problems either.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Elite
Posted 2008-04-11 06:51:31 and read 6982 times.

If memory serves me right, HKG cleared up the problems relatively quickly.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):

JFK will not go to T5 until June

I got a flight JFK-LHR in mid-June... hope everything is resolved by then... T5 is one of the reasons I'm flying BA and not AA.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Tkseven
Posted 2008-04-11 06:54:25 and read 6965 times.



Quoting BCAL (Reply 19):

seems because of BA's inability to operate fully out of T5 all other carriers are being mucked around

http://www.abtn.co.uk/T4_delay_lights_touch_paper

While BAA were also at fault it seems they will agree to anything BA want to pacify them but they do have other customers whom they seem to be ignoring

Definitely a time now to break the BAA monopoly

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 06:55:23 and read 7387 times.



Quoting Elite (Reply 24):
If memory serves me right, HKG cleared up the problems relatively quickly.

They did. Equally, if BA and BAA do the same in a time frame of, say, a month, we will be saying the same about them in 10 years time.

In the big picture of the life cycle of the terminal and LHR, this is a slight hitch, if also a bloody embarrassing & expensive one.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Aisak
Posted 2008-04-11 06:58:16 and read 7377 times.



Quoting Elite (Reply 20):
Does anyone know if the JFK-LHR route is affected or is it still T5?

All shorthaul are at T5 but MAD, BCN, HEL, LIS and NCE which are still at T1 and are always B757.
Only longhauls at T5 are LAX, SFO, YVR, NRT, HKG, JNB and MIA. The rest are at T4.

Almost all longhaul form T4 will change to T5 in June (expected)
The remaining shorthauls from T1 will move to T3 along with IB and AY
The remaining SIN-SYD, BKK-SYD and SIN at T4 will go to T3 sometime in 2009

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Zoom1018
Posted 2008-04-11 07:05:39 and read 7329 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 23):
The first motor car was over 100 years ago. By your rationale, cars should no longer have technical problems either.

Cars were 100 years but they are kept developed through time. Airport terminals are definitely 'new' in term of technology too, but the lesson there to learn is not learned, that is the point!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Aisak
Posted 2008-04-11 07:12:31 and read 7342 times.



Quoting Tkseven (Reply 25):
While BAA were also at fault it seems they will agree to anything BA want to pacify them but they do have other customers whom they seem to be ignoring

I though the first move into T4 was scheduled well after BA's move. Anyway.. How is BMI so concerned if they are operating out of T1? After all, it's not all the new route launch attempts go so well for them  duck 

They quote something about T2... T2 will not be empty at least until the end of 2008. I don't see BA staying at T4 for a non-determined period between 31 and 60 days affecting this.

Quoting Tkseven (Reply 25):
Definitely a time now to break the BAA monopoly

And how is this going to help? Let's say BAA sells LHR to toher company or stays only in LHR.... LHR will be still a monopoly for the airlines as there's only ONE LHR operator.... Let's break the airport monopoly then and split the terminals... We could go on, but...

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2008-04-11 07:15:03 and read 7298 times.



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 15):
While the visual impression of the building from the outside looked impressive, in the arrivals section after a long haul flight overnight from Hong Kong, I was shocked that the building had been allowed to be opened in such a state, it was a disgrace to BAA & BA

BAA seem to have had a relatively easy ride in the press compared to BA over T5; any lack of completeness of the building is however entirely down to BAA

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 07:18:14 and read 7284 times.



Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 28):
Airport terminals are definitely 'new' in term of technology too, but the lesson there to learn is not learned, that is the point!

Quote Airport Technology:

"The baggage handling system at T5 will be the largest baggage handling system in Europe for a single terminal. There will be two systems including a main baggage sorter and a fast track system.

The system was designed by an integrated team from BAA, BA and Vanderlande Industries of the Netherlands, and will handle both intra-terminal and inter-terminal luggage and will actually process 70,000 bags a day.

Bags undergo several innovative processes on the way through the system including automatic identification, explosives screening, fast tracking for urgent bags, sorting and automatic sorting and passenger reconciliation."

I don't get your point. The baggage handling system is new, innovative and unique in the world. The meltdown of the system was unfortunate to say the least, but if we don't push boundaries, we would all still be in caves.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: ManchesterMAN
Posted 2008-04-11 07:40:02 and read 7210 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
Quite easily; same problems, different scale. Ultimately though, they screwed airline ops equally successfully at the beginning.

Well how many did problems did SQ have when they moved some of their operations from T2 to T3 at SIN? Countless other airports have opened new terminals at the same airport and not had these problems.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sankaps
Posted 2008-04-11 07:52:12 and read 7155 times.



Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 32):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
Quite easily; same problems, different scale. Ultimately though, they screwed airline ops equally successfully at the beginning.

Well how many did problems did SQ have when they moved some of their operations from T2 to T3 at SIN? Countless other airports have opened new terminals at the same airport and not had these problems.

Agree. I can't think of any new terminal, same airport openings being such a mess anywhere else. Lets see, in the last decade or so... JFK T1, JFK T4, JFK T7/8, Detroit World Gateway, SFO Int'l terminal, DCA Reagan new terminal, Dulles re-build of the B Terminal, and now in 2008, at almost the same time as LHR T5, we have seen Singapore T3 and Beijing T3 (which is bigger than all 5 LHR terminals put together) open... and guess what, no problems -- at least none coming close to the scale of T5's problems.

However several new airport openings have seen significant problems... DEN, HKG, and BKK are the more obvious examples in the last decade.

Clearly this would suggest opening of a new terminal is usually a lot less of a challenge than opening a completely new airport.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Aisak
Posted 2008-04-11 08:00:34 and read 7125 times.



Quoting Sankaps (Reply 33):
and guess what, no problems -- at least none coming close to the scale of T5's problems.

Comparing two different things.

LHR opened a new terminal with no additional capacity. If something goes wrong (like the baggage system) flights cannot be delayed, they have to be canceled because there's no slot for take off 3 hours later. Having to cancel flights instead of operating with a delayed schedule causes a wave effect into the following days.

If LHR had plenty of available slots, most flights but have been operated (albeit delayed) with most of their baggage (not all of them, but still not empty)

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: MAS777
Posted 2008-04-11 08:05:28 and read 7101 times.



Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 17):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 12):
Like DEN, HKG etc etc when they opened. Some people have very short memories

I actually don't see how you can even compare DEN and HKG to T5. These were complete airport moves. All BA has done is moved SOME of their flights to the other side of the same airfield.

Fraid i have to agrree with ManchesterMAN here - HKG, DEN and KUL all experienced opening problems and baggage was an issue with HKG and KUL but i remember flying through them both when they opened and their 'problems' pale into insignificance as compared to T5.

Bags at HKG and KUL were delayed in terms of 'slow delivery' or for a few hours after arrival - not for days and weeks like T5!!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 08:09:09 and read 7083 times.



Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 32):
Well how many did problems did SQ have when they moved some of their operations from T2 to T3 at SIN? Countless other airports have opened new terminals at the same airport and not had these problems.

Chalk and Cheese. They all continued with old style belt conveyancing of baggage; T5 does not. But if you wish to use that argument, shall we discuss the complete balls up that was the baggage system in Manchester's diminutive T3 or when they overhauled T1?

Fact sheet: http://www.vanderlande.com/en-gb/References/Documents/T5-3340.jpg


I'm not disagreeing that this has been a monumental cock-up, but some people need to get past the simplistic notion that other airports/terminals have managed something T5 has not. The Terminal 5 baggage system is an advancement of technology. It is new, innovative, unique, so can not be compared to the examples you cite.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-11 08:21:06 and read 7036 times.



Quoting MAS777 (Reply 35):
not for days and weeks like T5!!

But this is the BA MO, independent of T5. In other instances when baggage problems happened, it was the same thing for BA. Send them to Italy, sort them eventually, send them back to the right place eventually. As long as the British Government allows this kind of nonsense and customers put up with it instead of switching carriers, BA will continue to do it this way.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-11 08:28:57 and read 7005 times.

BMI are not happy either !! Nigel Turner said he was outraged at the decision .

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-11 08:48:27 and read 6980 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
BMI are not happy either !! Nigel Turner said he was outraged at the decision .

Why not let the other carriers move into T5 and see if they can make a go of it...  Wink

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Treebeard787
Posted 2008-04-11 08:49:48 and read 6956 times.

Hmmm, Not good news, I will be flying in to LHR on BA288 in May and connecting to BA768, Will I have to switch terminals now? and which terminals might I need to connect to.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-11 08:53:11 and read 6942 times.



Quoting Treebeard787 (Reply 40):

Yepp, you will land in T4 so you need to switch to T5.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-04-11 08:56:01 and read 6937 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
BMI are not happy either !! Nigel Turner said he was outraged at the decision .

God knows why. He's got BA out of T1 and has never had so much space to play with.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Treebeard787
Posted 2008-04-11 08:58:45 and read 6924 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 41):

Is there some sort of train that I can take to T5 or will I need to take a bus.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-11 09:02:39 and read 6919 times.



Quoting Treebeard787 (Reply 43):
Is there some sort of train that I can take to T5 or will I need to take a bus.

From BAs website:

How do I transfer between Terminal 4 and 5?

If you are connecting to a flight in another Heathrow terminal, follow signs for ‘Flight Connections.’
Our customer service team will be on hand to assist you.
The minimum time we set to allow customers to connect to flights between Terminals 4 and 5 is two hours.



Here you can find more info http://www.britishairways.com/travel...lightops/public/sv_se?p_faqid=3205

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Treebeard787
Posted 2008-04-11 09:05:06 and read 6890 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 44):

Thanks for the help!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-11 09:07:28 and read 6886 times.



Quoting Treebeard787 (Reply 45):

Thanks for the help!

No problems. Hope you will enjoy your flights with BA!! happy flying,

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Theginge
Posted 2008-04-11 09:15:06 and read 6862 times.

Apprently BA won't be moving until they are completly satisfied that T5 is ready for the extra flights. I am sure there will be a bit of a bun fight between BA and the BAA if they have to delay further.
Delaying the moves and staggering them will be a logistical nightmare! For example do they just move the 744's across and leave the 777's in T4? But then you have some destinations which use both aircraft so you can't really split them across terminals. Also have to plan moves and equipment and also plan aircraft utilisation as it is no good having aircraft that need to be towed between 4 and 5 consantly!
Will be interesting when a timetable of the moves is released!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-11 09:46:10 and read 6809 times.

No carriers were due to move into Terminal 4 on April 30th anyway, so that's not really an issue. The bigger issue is that BA need to vacate T4 to enable the building works at T4 check-in to commence. It looks as though that will be delayed by at least 2 months now, possibly causing a knock-on effect with other airline moves into T4 commencing January 2009 with T3 non-aligned carriers.

Big version: Width: 710 Height: 431 File size: 310kb

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BAW716
Posted 2008-04-11 11:21:11 and read 6637 times.

T5 is still a mess and is going to be for some time. BA made a horrendous mistake putting as much of their operation as they did at T5 on day one. We are nearly a month later and things are not all that much better. It is better, but not to the point in which BA can risk their long haul operation.

Unfortunately, I think it will be awhile before the situation is resolved at T5, so for all travelers on BA transiting Heathrow, the advice I give is the same it has been for the past 30 years...leave twice as much time for your connection at LHR than anywhere else in the world. If you are coming from long haul into Europe, you need four hours minimum if you are changing terminals...and now with the issues at T5, four hours may not even be enough. Of course, with T5 in the picture, you have to figure out from where your flight departs...which is why the my four hour rule exists in the first place.

Let's hope it comes together soon...connecting at LHR is the principal reason I've avoided BA over the years (even though I really like BA as a carrier). If I'm going to London and stopping, then BA it is. If I have to go to the continent, I'll fly someone else...I've lost my bag connecting at LHR before, even when I flew on Concorde, I arrived without my bag!
This is long before T4 and T5 were even built. I can see that nothing has changed in 30 years...

baw716

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-04-11 11:38:58 and read 6560 times.

I wonder how the delayed move from T4 affects BA schedules? If not mistaken they reduced block times on many flights to reflect shorter taxi times to/from T5, and I assume minimum connecting times were also reduced for connections that were intended to be in the same terminal, but will no longer be due to the delayed move from T4.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Cruiser
Posted 2008-04-11 12:08:36 and read 6263 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 12):
Like DEN, HKG etc etc when they opened. Some people have very short memories

But we have also seen terminals open on this massive scale (i.e. YYZ) without any real problems. Sure the odd little thing didn't work, but overall, there have been terminal moves which have gone off much better than DEN, HKG, or LHR. T5 just reminds us that these projects are not easy and are VERY complex.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 19):
Bearing in mind that already BA will have to pay out GBP 12 million in compensation to passengers as a result of the T5 chaos, it just makes me think that had they spent the time and money to ensure that all their staff had been properly trained and be made familiar with T5, and all systems were thoroughly tested before the first flight landed, the cost would have been a fraction of GB 12 million and BA would have save a fortune not to mention the damage to the BA brand.

Airlines look at Training as an expense. The least amount of training possible is what the airlines want - except sometimes, they underestimate the exact amount required.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2008-04-11 12:16:02 and read 6218 times.

BAA owe it to BA to allow them to stay in T4 until they sort outt he baggage problems at T5. Its BAA's fault that everything went tits up in the first place although BA could have handled it better.
As far as I see it, if the carriers due to move into T4 want to take it up with anyone then they need to take it up with BAA and no-one else................. rant over

I believe that once T5 is running properly then LHR will be a nice place to transit through (flying BA obviously) although Im not stupid in thinking that this will be shortly.
Its going to take a while for things to settle down and my prediction is that even when the longhaul flights do move across theirs still going to be few minor details that need ironing out.
I know there were trials, and lots of them at that, but your always going to have problems to iron out no matter how much you practice at it.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR27C
Posted 2008-04-11 12:19:23 and read 6212 times.



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 49):
T5 is still a mess and is going to be for some time. BA made a horrendous mistake putting as much of their operation as they did at T5 on day one. We are nearly a month later and things are not all that much better.

Um, we're 15 days later and T5 is running at a higher level of punctuality than BA managed on average with their operations in T1. It's actually working better than T1. Sure, there's the odd issue, but things are far better than they were this time two weeks ago. It's by no means a mess.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: GDB
Posted 2008-04-11 13:01:59 and read 5952 times.

The only reasonably thing to do, really.
T5 might seem a mere new terminal at an existing airport, but the thing is so vast it might as well be a whole new airport.
I've heard that a realistic T5 opening would have been in October 08, which begs a lot of questions.
I've been hearing some horror stories about the building's lack of preparation, non cleaning of toilets, no post boxes, no PC plug ins, different labelling of floors in lifts compared to the outside and many more.

Hey, at least Walsh faced the press, when BAA screwed during the inclement weather weekend, they had agreed to do a press conference with Walsh, but they backed out. The BA CEO is seething about this.

I've in previous posts not defended BA's significant part in all this, but I note how one Micheal O'Leary did not gloat, in fact he castigated BAA, of course he had his own agenda.
In my view, all the major UK carriers CEO's should hold a joint press conference, BA, VS, BMI, EasyJet, Ryanair, where they list their concerns, warn of the economic and frankly PR damage to the UK and call for BAA to be either broken up or re-nationalised, (the latter is not so outlandish, the even more hated Railtrack effectively was).

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-04-11 13:19:50 and read 5848 times.

If the Govt. can take Northern Rock out of the hands of lunatics, they can very well do the same to BAA.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-11 14:13:13 and read 5535 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 39):
Why not let the other carriers move into T5 and see if they can make a go of it... Wink

Any airline would have issues.... Its BAA that should take the majority of the blame.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-11 16:30:29 and read 4963 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 56):
Any airline would have issues.... Its BAA that should take the majority of the blame.

Really? So BAA were responsible for BA's employees not having sufficient training time, and proper terminal familiarisation? BAA are to blame for BA staff not getting to work on time? BAA are responsible for BA baggage teams not unloading bags from the baggage system quickly enough, thereby causing a system backlog?

BA are very responsible for their own issues in T5. You can't blame BAA all the time, just because it's the fashionable thing to do. There are issues that BAA is dealing with, such as behind-the-scenes fixtures and fittings, but that's because they had to have the terminal open by the date BA set, that being March 27th.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: FlyboyOz
Posted 2008-04-11 16:35:56 and read 4949 times.

What's Australia JSA route? What does JSA stands for? Doesn't mean that BA aircraft from Australia go to the T5?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Zoom1018
Posted 2008-04-11 16:44:32 and read 4909 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 31):
I don't get your point.

hence all the chaos


Looks:
"The luggage system can handle 19,200 pieces of luggage per hour. After luggage is checked in at any one of the 292 counters at Terminal 3C, they can be transferred at the speed of ten metres per second. Even for international routes, luggage can travel from T3C to T3E in five minutes. Arriving passengers should be able to begin retrieving their luggage within 4.5 minutes after airplanes are unloaded." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Capital_International_Airport#Terminal_3)

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2008-04-11 16:46:39 and read 4900 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
So BAA were responsible for BA's employees not having sufficient training time, and proper terminal familiarisation?

Actually...They are both equally to blame. BAA too needed to have its own staff available to ensure the system was running to standards, it failed to have enough of these people available. BA based its training on the trials which was not sufficient and the nature of the trails (for both BAA and BA) failed to be realistic enough so both are equally responsible.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
BAA are to blame for BA staff not getting to work on time?

Very much so. They failed to have enough staff security gates open with enough staff to man them. They failed to have the car park attendants available on time and they were just as unsure about the layout of the airport as the BA staff. I arrived on the inaugural flight from Hong Kong. When our crew bus got to the customs channel it was locked shut with no staff around. Their excuse...they were not expecting any crew to pass through it despite it being the dedicated temporary crew customs channel until IFS move to T5 in may!?!?!?! We sat there for 30 mins until something was sorted out (along with three other crew buses). The crew operating the inaugural Paris flight sat for 15 mins in their bus waiting for staff to open the security cage for them to enter airside!!!! How do I know??? We were talking to them through the fence laughing about it!

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
BAA are responsible for BA baggage teams not unloading bags from the baggage system quickly enough, thereby causing a system backlog?

Again equal blame here. BAA were not aware that the bags needed to be offloaded from the belt as quickly as they needed to be and failed to pass this info onto BA for training purposes. When they did realise this their staff were slow to feed this info directly through to BA staff until thousands of bags had already been rerouted and delayed.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
You can't blame BAA all the time, just because it's the fashionable thing to do

This terminal was jointly developed by BAA and BA. Both are equally to blame. But BAA are the owners of the terminal, BA are simply their customer and users of the facility. At the end of the day BAA should have provided a robust operation for BA and let BA ruin it themselves. BAA were as incompitent as BA on this occasion. But the difference now is that BA are looking out for themselves (as well they should) to get their house in order and get the operation up to a robust enough level before the start to move things again. BAA as the provider of the facility should only too rightly allow BA maintain its current operation in T4 until such time as T5 is up for it. The other airlines are not BA's problem but BAA's and they should considering all that has gone wrong on their part deal with it!!!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Qantasclub
Posted 2008-04-11 18:06:09 and read 4642 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 36):
Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 32):
Well how many did problems did SQ have when they moved some of their operations from T2 to T3 at SIN? Countless other airports have opened new terminals at the same airport and not had these problems.

Chalk and Cheese. They all continued with old style belt conveyancing of baggage; T5 does not.

At least it works. First bags arrive 12 minutes after arrival and last bag at 29 mins after arrival. This is the case consistently at Changi having arrived and departed from Spore countless times, I have never had to wait longer than a few minutes at the most after any flight. The baggage system in terminals 2 and 3 are fully automated and integrated. And no, there were hardly any problems at all with the transfer from T2 to T2&3 with seamless operations from day 1.
The management structure and culture of 'blaming' instead of fixing will ensure that Heathrow will never achieve the same operational levels of efficiency which is such a pity, because Heathrow had such potential to become a showcase for the country (as new terminals and airports often are-KUL,HKG,PEK,AMS) instead of the national embarassment it continues to be.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-11 18:16:18 and read 4611 times.



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 60):
Actually...They are both equally to blame. BAA too needed to have its own staff available to ensure the system was running to standards, it failed to have enough of these people available. BA based its training on the trials which was not sufficient and the nature of the trails (for both BAA and BA) failed to be realistic enough so both are equally responsible.

Some things you may not be aware of, as a crew member -
BAA has had full-time staff in T5 since December. The baggage system was tested every single night, with 12,000+ bags being put down the system on a nightly basis. It worked every time. It only failed when BA's own staff started using the system on day 1. How do I know? My missus has been working in T5 full time since last December. She saw the sheer volume of bags being put through the system every day. Van der Lande, the baggage system manufacturer, had their staff available. They're the supplier, not BAA. They manage the system for BAA.

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 60):
Very much so. They failed to have enough staff security gates open with enough staff to man them. They failed to have the car park attendants available on time and they were just as unsure about the layout of the airport as the BA staff.

On day 1, BAA manned all of the in-terminal (note - not the security gates/control posts) staff search points. They did run quite slowly, mainly due to new guards being in place. BAA staff know T5 substantially better than BA staff. For example - do you know T5 has 6 subterranean levels? No, probably not. Anyway, I digress.....

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 60):
Again equal blame here. BAA were not aware that the bags needed to be offloaded from the belt as quickly as they needed to be and failed to pass this info onto BA for training purposes. When they did realise this their staff were slow to feed this info directly through to BA staff until thousands of bags had already been rerouted and delayed.

Don't know if you heard that on Galley FM, but BAA were well aware of the need to offload bags in a timely fashion. Again, BAA tested the baggage system on a nightly basis, for nearly a year. They knew, they told BA. What BA chose to do with that information was up to them. I take it you're unaware of the staffing conflicts caused by mixing T1 and T4 teams together on day 1.

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 60):
This terminal was jointly developed by BAA and BA. Both are equally to blame. But BAA are the owners of the terminal, BA are simply their customer and users of the facility. At the end of the day BAA should have provided a robust operation for BA and let BA ruin it themselves. BAA were as incompitent as BA on this occasion. But the difference now is that BA are looking out for themselves (as well they should) to get their house in order and get the operation up to a robust enough level before the start to move things again. BAA as the provider of the facility should only too rightly allow BA maintain its current operation in T4 until such time as T5 is up for it. The other airlines are not BA's problem but BAA's and they should considering all that has gone wrong on their part deal with it!!!

You can go on about that until you're blue in the face. Bottom line - BA failed to train it's staff sufficiently. How do I know this? I was one of them. 3 days training consisted of Day 1 - walk around. Day 2 - This is a check-in desk. Day 3 - This is a departure gate. End of story. BA considered that sufficient to start the operation. As we know, that training was woefully inadequate. BAA provided the tools to do the job - check-in desks, working IT systems, a working baggage system, courtesy of Van der Lande. BA themselves had to provide the 'robust operation' you speak of. BA failed to do this. They underestimated the enormity of the situation. Simple as that.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sankaps
Posted 2008-04-11 19:06:32 and read 4477 times.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 36):


Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 32):
Well how many did problems did SQ have when they moved some of their operations from T2 to T3 at SIN? Countless other airports have opened new terminals at the same airport and not had these problems.

Chalk and Cheese. They all continued with old style belt conveyancing of baggage; T5 does not.

...

I'm not disagreeing that this has been a monumental cock-up, but some people need to get past the simplistic notion that other airports/terminals have managed something T5 has not. The Terminal 5 baggage system is an advancement of technology. It is new, innovative, unique, so can not be compared to the examples you cite.

And that matters to us, how? The other new terminals seem to work just fine with the "old style belt conveyancing of baggage". In fact in many of those terminals, bags are out before the customers reach the belt, and the home airlines do not appear to be losing connecting bags much either. So why fix what's not broken? Building something unique and innovative for its own sake does not help justify the cock-up. Especially as one could learn from history (DEN, HKG new baggage system screw-ups) rather than repeat it.

Besides, as others have pointed out, it is not the baggage system itself that is solely to blame, lack of training appears to have played a huge part. And there were other cock-ups too, like lifts not working, security bottlenecks, poor connections / transfers flow, etc. The other new terminals seem to have fared better on opening on just about every measure.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sankaps
Posted 2008-04-11 22:59:34 and read 4010 times.



Quoting Aisak (Reply 34):

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 33):
and guess what, no problems -- at least none coming close to the scale of T5's problems.

Comparing two different things.

LHR opened a new terminal with no additional capacity. If something goes wrong (like the baggage system) flights cannot be delayed, they have to be canceled because there's no slot for take off 3 hours later. Having to cancel flights instead of operating with a delayed schedule causes a wave effect into the following days.

Yes, but the point is flights need to first be delayed on a large scale due to things not working as planned for the cancellations to pile up. Do not recall any major flight delays at most of the other terminal openings mentioned. Suggests things went according to plan in those cases, and did not in T5.

And things dont magically go according to plan, it means good planning, testing, training, and management... which appear to have been absent in large doses in the case of T5.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2008-04-12 00:29:10 and read 3878 times.



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 49):
T5 is still a mess and is going to be for some time.

This statement bears no relation to recent press releases from BA, and stories in the media (who haven't exactly been pro BA recently).
All report that T5 is working well, and passengers bags are getting to the right places.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 49):
If you are coming from long haul into Europe, you need four hours minimum if you are changing terminals...

Once again 2 hours is the advice from BA; they would hardly tell passnegers half the true figure, in order to deliberately ipset them would they ?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Speedbird2155
Posted 2008-04-12 01:47:21 and read 3729 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
Really? So BAA were responsible for BA's employees not having sufficient training time, and proper terminal familiarisation?

Actually, the answer is yes. BA had well laid out plans for training and familiarisation, but the building wasn't ready on time and those plans then had to be changed at the last minutes thanks to BAA. BA were relied on BAA to grant access for staff training and when the permission was eventually granted, there were lots of restrictions on where we could go and what we could do. Many of the staff routes weren't ready (some still aren't finished) and therefore staff were largely shown passenger routes which didn't help when the building opened and staff had to find their way through areas they had never seen.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
BAA are to blame for BA staff not getting to work on time?

Again, yes. BAA didn't have proper signage in place for the carparks and lots of people had issues with the BAA issued car park passes not working. Also once getting to the terminal, it was the BAA staff security points that were backed up and taking over an hour for staff to get through to airside and their report points. This impacted on the ability of staff being in place at the right time.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2008-04-12 02:01:09 and read 3700 times.



Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 58):
What's Australia JSA route? What does JSA stands for? Doesn't mean that BA aircraft from Australia go to the T5?

JSA stands for Joint Service Agreement

BA and QF have a JSA on flights between LHR and SYD.

All JSA flights, both BA and QF will eventually depart from T3 which will be the Oneworld terminal, eventually

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Speedbird2155
Posted 2008-04-12 03:00:47 and read 3574 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 62):
BAA has had full-time staff in T5 since December. The baggage system was tested every single night, with 12,000+ bags being put down the system on a nightly basis. It worked every time. It only failed when BA's own staff started using the system on day 1. How do I know? My missus has been working in T5 full time since last December. She saw the sheer volume of bags being put through the system every day.

Your 'missus' has been working full time since December in T5 but obviously isn't very aware of exactly how things were progressing. There have been issues with the baggage system during all the testing and BA have made BAA aware, again with the usual promise that it would be well and the fixes were being done. As for the number of bags that were tested.....it was indeed thousands, but the figure was never 12,000 on a nightly basis.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 62):
You can go on about that until you're blue in the face. Bottom line - BA failed to train it's staff sufficiently. How do I know this? I was one of them. 3 days training consisted of Day 1 - walk around. Day 2 - This is a check-in desk. Day 3 - This is a departure gate. End of story. BA considered that sufficient to start the operation. As we know, that training was woefully inadequate. BAA provided the tools to do the job - check-in desks, working IT systems, a working baggage system, courtesy of Van der Lande. BA themselves had to provide the 'robust operation' you speak of. BA failed to do this. They underestimated the enormity of the situation. Simple as that.

Hmmm, since you claim to know so much about how things were ran, exactly how did the BA training and familiarisation days differ from those that the BAA ran? Did the BAA days not only consist of walking around for the most part? And if you really did go on the BA days, you would know that there were more than 3 days and that the 3 days spent in T5 was designed to how staff the equipment and give them as much opportunity to become familiar with it. Much of the actually plans for those days, as I said before, had to be changed due to various restrictions imposed by BAA and the fact that quite often work was still ongoing in various areas. This was training for only one group of BA staff.

There were flaws with the BA training, but that does not mean that BAA aren't to blame for much of what went wrong on the opening day.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-12 03:24:49 and read 3537 times.



Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 68):
Hmmm, since you claim to know so much about how things were ran, exactly how did the BA training and familiarisation days differ from those that the BAA ran? Did the BAA days not only consist of walking around for the most part? And if you really did go on the BA days, you would know that there were more than 3 days and that the 3 days spent in T5 was designed to how staff the equipment and give them as much opportunity to become familiar with it. Much of the actually plans for those days, as I said before, had to be changed due to various restrictions imposed by BAA and the fact that quite often work was still ongoing in various areas. This was training for only one group of BA staff.

Excuse me? What makes you the authority on T5 anyway? I was a BA employee until 10 days ago. I did all the training, and frankly, it was inadequate. Sorry you have an issue with that. You 'claim' to know lots about T5. Why don't you tell us all about it then?

BAA staff familiarization consisted of a month of walking the terminal, using the x-ray machines and AMD's, testing the fire systems, track transit, escalators, lifts, walkways, ramp lighting, signage (which was poor) and other operational areas of T5 that BA staff have no clue about, nor need to.

How much of that work going on in other areas was due to BA's unrealistic opening schedule of March 27th? The terminal isn't ready, BA knew that, and BAA does too. They're working on it to bring it up to the standard specified. Perhaps if the opening was in October, it'd actually be finished. 'On time and On Budget' only related to work up to March 27th. It's not definitely not on time, or budget. The build was supposed to be finished in September 2007. They ran way beyond that date, and builders are still in T5. Not exactly 'on time' at all.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 68):
Your 'missus' has been working full time since December in T5 but obviously isn't very aware of exactly how things were progressing. There have been issues with the baggage system during all the testing and BA have made BAA aware, again with the usual promise that it would be well and the fixes were being done. As for the number of bags that were tested.....it was indeed thousands, but the figure was never 12,000 on a nightly basis.

She works for BAA, and is very aware of what's been going on. Substantially more than yourself, evidently. BA did 70 trials. I personally did 3 trials. Everything worked, every time, including the baggage drops, staff travel, baggage reclaim and security check-points. Of course, they ran with between 200 and 2000 people. What did BA do with the feedback they were given?

Still, go ahead and blow your rah-rah-rah BA is great trumpet. You'll see the reality soon enough. BAA isn't coming up smelling of roses, but I'm saying that they're not entirely to blame, as other posters here have alluded to. Willie acknowledged that in his very first press conference in T5. You may defend BA all you like, but the blame is equal, and BA know that. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

Anyway, this bickering is pointless - BA and BAA now need to work together and fix it, and BA needs to move out of T4 ASAP. Let's hope that happens sooner, rather than later.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Par13del
Posted 2008-04-12 04:39:25 and read 3444 times.

Interesting reading, in general:
1. If someone anywhere in the world screws up, that makes it ok or acceptable for you to do the same, no learning from others mistakes here, experience is always the best teacher.

2. Its all about BA, never mind the other carriers who are going to get screwed over by their delay move into T4, and the demolition / rebuild of older terminals. The compensation for that will probably just be rolled up into the construction cost and no one will be the wiser - if it is paid. While everyone praises BA and the ease of travelling through their T5, pax will be bitching at the other airlines in T4 etc. wanting to know when they will offer the quality service BA does, this small foot note in history will be long forgotton by then especially for BA and its staff.

Bottom line is that this is a major screw up, somehow the bean counters responsible for things like this never receive their just rewards, they come up with these cheapo plans for training, time schedules, we don't need this or that, this will save us mucho dollars if we trim this and that, and when the s**** hits the fan, the money saved 6 months ago is wiped out in 2 days, go figure. Certainely the investors were happy with the low cost involved in training and relocation after spending the big bucks on the actual building, lets hope in future the investors allow training and relocation cost be added to the building cost and avoid issues like this, but as in 1 above, I don't think that will happen.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Theginge
Posted 2008-04-12 08:32:35 and read 3315 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 62):
BAA has had full-time staff in T5 since December. The baggage system was tested every single night, with 12,000+ bags being put down the system on a nightly basis. It worked every time. It only failed when BA's own staff started using the system on day 1. How do I know? My missus has been working in T5 full time since last December. She saw the sheer volume of bags being put through the system every day. Van der Lande, the baggage system manufacturer, had their staff available. They're the supplier, not BAA. They manage the system for BAA.

There have been issues with the baggage system since last year, and it wasn't BA staff to blame. Yes BA has the blame for the training side of the BA staff on day 1 but BAA is responsible for the system, and from what I hear it is still not up to standard.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 69):
She works for BAA, and is very aware of what's been going on. Substantially more than yourself, evidently. BA did 70 trials. I personally did 3 trials. Everything worked, every time, including the baggage drops, staff travel, baggage reclaim and security check-points. Of course, they ran with between 200 and 2000 people. What did BA do with the feedback they were given?

Not all parts of the baggage system worked properly during the trials, there were many issues with bags not coming to the correct output points. Baggage reclaim isn't part of the main baggage system so that was always going to work with no problems as they are just conveyor belts that have bags put on to them manually.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-12 09:08:01 and read 3267 times.



Quoting Theginge (Reply 71):
There have been issues with the baggage system since last year, and it wasn't BA staff to blame. Yes BA has the blame for the training side of the BA staff on day 1 but BAA is responsible for the system, and from what I hear it is still not up to standard.

Therein lies the problem. There's a lot of heresay, and not a lot of fact.

BA and BAA will get to the bottom of it, regardless. I have no doubt that T5 WILL become the world-class terminal it so richly deserves to be.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-12 09:21:23 and read 3250 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 57):
Really? So BAA were responsible for BA's employees not having sufficient training time, and proper terminal familiarisation? BAA are to blame for BA staff not getting to work on time?

The thing that casued the MAJOR problem was the baggage system . So IMHO that is where the blame is for loosing all those bags . Also people couldnt check in due to the system being down. The other things could have been sorted out if BAA had have had their wonderful new baggage system working properly. They raved on about this top class system and thats why they got egg on their faces when it messed up .

How heavy were the suitcases that they used in the trial??? Someone told me they were empty???

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-12 09:58:23 and read 3220 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 73):
How heavy were the suitcases that they used in the trial??? Someone told me they were empty???

Someone told you porkies - they all had varying weights in them, from 5kg to 32kg.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 73):
The thing that casued the MAJOR problem was the baggage system . So IMHO that is where the blame is for loosing all those bags .

Which is fine, until you realise that the major problem was that the baggage system was working properly, but wasn't being unloaded quickly enough in the baggage make-up area, which caused the backlog. I think you'll find the egg was firmly on BA's face, not BAA's. Pity really, it should have been equal blame, but Willie dropped the ball on that one, by stating "I don't blame BAA".

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Theginge
Posted 2008-04-12 09:58:23 and read 3221 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 73):
How heavy were the suitcases that they used in the trial??? Someone told me they were empty???

Sort of correct, they were not empty but they weren't exactly heavy either so not really that realistic.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-12 10:00:28 and read 3221 times.



Quoting Theginge (Reply 75):
Sort of correct, they were not empty but they weren't exactly heavy either so not really that realistic.

Really? On my second trial, I had a 23KG bag, a 30KG bag and a 9KG carry-on. The weights were painted in day-glo yellow on the sides of the bags, and matched the weight on the scales at check-in.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-12 10:12:42 and read 3199 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 74):
"I don't blame BAA".

Very different from what has been said by BA behind the doors.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 74):
they all had varying weights in them, from 5kg to 32kg.

5 KG??? who on earth realistically checks in a 5 kilo bag?? All bags should have been at least over 10 kilos if not all between 20KG-32KG to really test the system.

Did they not have problems unloading the bags in the trials??? I'm sorry but If I were running the trials I would have done all the trials based on full July and August holiday periods and extra bags on top of that but thats just too much common sense I think.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR777
Posted 2008-04-12 11:01:09 and read 3153 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 77):
5 KG??? who on earth realistically checks in a 5 kilo bag?? All bags should have been at least over 10 kilos if not all between 20KG-32KG to really test the system.

Did they not have problems unloading the bags in the trials??? I'm sorry but If I were running the trials I would have done all the trials based on full July and August holiday periods and extra bags on top of that but thats just too much common sense I think.

But that's also unrealistic, as it doesn't represent a broad spectrum of bag weights. What if the system has no problem with heavy bags, but light bags go flying out of the bins? That's the point of varying bag weights.

The 5KG bags were used as carry-ons, which tested the security systems.

We can honestly go on about the intracacies of the trials until we're blue in the face, but frankly, they're history. Here and now, BA and BAA need to get the terminal running to the expected (high) standard. Debating on here wont change it, and I'm as guilty of doing that as everyone else on this thread!

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-04-13 03:49:48 and read 2981 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 78):
But that's also unrealistic, as it doesn't represent a broad spectrum of bag weights. What if the system has no problem with heavy bags, but light bags go flying out of the bins? That's the point of varying bag weights.

I'm just a believer in checking , checking again and triple checking thats all. Something that rarely happens these days. I would presume they would have trialed all scenarios as they had plenty of time and they boasted that they did all these tests. I would have done trials with all light bags then average weights then all overweight bags . At least it would have really tested the system. Also throw in another scenario with 2 or 3 less staff to unload the bags allowing for people calling in sick etc..... Maybe they did all this but I have not seen it anywhere so far. I have nothing to do with BA or BAA so it cant be rocket science. I'm just Joe public using and paying to use these facilities.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2008-04-13 04:12:53 and read 2960 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 76):
Really? On my second trial, I had a 23KG bag, a 30KG bag and a 9KG carry-on. The weights were painted in day-glo yellow on the sides of the bags, and matched the weight on the scales at check-in.

When I did my trials my bags had nothing in them, how do I know?, cos I opened them to look and see if there was anything inside.

It looked as if they used the same bags for each trial and to test the baggage system as well.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: StarGoldLHR
Posted 2008-04-13 05:36:43 and read 2911 times.



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 15):
Ceiling tiles were missing in large sections exposing wires/air conditioning and heating ducts and there was sawdust/wood chippings and glass panels/railings on certain sections not finished/missing. On the numerous escalators from the first outside Pier back to the main terminal the floors looked scuffed/worn and dirty.

When I read this I thought you were referring to T3.. At least T5 matches all the other terminals.  Smile

What other airlines are affected by this ??

And in what way ? It's not as if hundreds of airlines have new routes to cancel or postpone, it sounds like grumpy old men loking to stick the knife in BA.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: JACK02116
Posted 2008-04-13 09:08:10 and read 2835 times.

Just thought I'd mention that much has improved since day 1. I arrived in from SFO on 12th April, short walk from T5B, down escalators to the train to the main terminal building, another short walk and escalator ride up to UK border control. Waiting time 1 minute (and around 70% of desks occupied - thats a first for LHR) Another short walk downstairs to baggage hall and bags started arriving within 8 minutes.

If thats what we can expect once everything is working properly, then give me T5 any day over the other terminals at LHR. It shows the terminal has the potential to deliver a great service to match the quality of the building. Lets hope BA and BAA can make it happen ................. soon!

BTW - the departure experience on outbound was equally good!!! Unlike the Daily Mail and much of the UK media intent on hitting the 'UK self destruct' button, I am very optimistic!!

Jack  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: BAW716
Posted 2008-04-13 20:37:21 and read 2662 times.



Quoting LHR27C (Reply 53):
Um, we're 15 days later and T5 is running at a higher level of punctuality than BA managed on average with their operations in T1. It's actually working better than T1. Sure, there's the odd issue, but things are far better than they were this time two weeks ago. It's by no means a mess.

Puctuality is not the issue...it's departure completion. I certainly am not there, but I have to believe the information I am receiving is credible...

baw716

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-04-14 15:11:57 and read 2473 times.

BD is very upset at the delay in further terminal moves at LHR.
http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/abou...entre/press-releases/20080411.aspx

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: LHR27C
Posted 2008-04-14 15:43:19 and read 2441 times.



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 83):
Puctuality is not the issue...it's departure completion. I certainly am not there, but I have to believe the information I am receiving is credible...

Not quite sure what you mean by "departure completion". If you are referring to the physical state of the terminal, i.e. lifts not working etc, yep, I'd agree there. However, the blame for that surely falls mostly on BAA for not providing a completed terminal on opening day.

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2008-04-14 20:52:39 and read 2401 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 62):
Some things you may not be aware of, as a crew member -

Ah, another person who looks down his nose at people just because they are crew!!!! Its this kind of attitude that makes BA an awful place to work and no wonder there is no consolidarity amongst BA staff leading to management walking all over us! But thats a different discussion altogether.

I am far more "involved" in this company than just being crew. I also have a mass of experience from elsewhere and it may shock you to know that I too (yes a mere cabin crew member who pays no attention to galley fm) know people from within the BAA and indeed, one or two of those people are very very high up in the organisation.

Yes indeed we could go on and on until we are blue in the face. But you cannot deny that both BA and the BAA made monumental screw ups regarding the opening of this terminal. Why almost 3 weeks after opening are the majority of landside lifts not working??? Are we going to blame the contractor for the installation of the lifts??? Why should we? Its BAA's responsibility to have these things ready in time. Van Der Laande may have been the people who designed the baggage belt but BAA are RESPONSIBLE for it operating correctly. VDL may have their own people there overseeing it but the over all responsibility is by contract (between BA and BAA) with BAA = FACT!

Now BAA have admitted that they have made these errors and are pressing to correct them. They have publicly accepted responsibility...so why can you not accept this yourself?

Topic: RE: BA Postpones Switch Of Longhaul Services To T5
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2008-04-14 21:05:36 and read 2393 times.



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 69):
You may defend BA all you like, but the blame is equal, and BA know that.

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying...so why have you been trying to contradict me?

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 74):
but Willie dropped the ball on that one, by stating "I don't blame BAA".

Please do not tell me you are that naive because I will refuse to believe you! LOL! WW may have said this to the press but I can assure you he was simply being diplomatic (and trying I suppose to adopt his own brand values of "owning the problem" instead of just passing the book) at a time when he needed the full cooperation of the BAA!


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