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Topic: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Moderators
Posted 2008-04-15 00:02:53 and read 32364 times.

The news of the pending DL/NW merger has spawned many threads covering very detailed aspects of the transaction, and many forms of speculation. In the interest of keeping the forum organized and the discussions more cohesive, please add your posts in one of the 'official' threads on the subject. You will find them in the forum index with the following titles:

- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Fleets & Routes
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Employees
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Regionals
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Alliances
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Airports

Please discuss Impact on Fleets & Routes in this thread.


Quite a few threads will be locked (rather than being deleted) as they may duplicate the intent of these official threads.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Scipio
Posted 2008-04-15 00:07:48 and read 32379 times.

Moderators, we had started to post in this official thread. Yet, after a dozen or so posts the official thread was emptied again.

Why?

Can those posts be recovered?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Scipio
Posted 2008-04-15 00:13:03 and read 32332 times.

Ok. Let's start all over again after this technical hiccup  Smile

-----------------------------------

We have a loyal Boeing customer merging with one of Airbus' best US customers. Which way will this go?

If Delta's management dominates, they may well stick to the gentlemen's agreement with Boeing and order Boeing only going forward. The legacy Airbus fleet could then gradually disappear.

If NWA's management is influential, the door may remain open for Airbus.

Or, perhaps, given that Boeing no longer is as dominant in aircraft manufacturing as at the time when Delta opted for an all-Boeing fleet and that Boeing no longer offers a full range of state-of-the-art products, Delta managers may decide that this is as good an opportunity as any to get out of the understandings with Boeing.

Any thoughts?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Swalifebtw
Posted 2008-04-15 00:22:35 and read 32253 times.

I've been wating to see Airbus A319,A320 and A330 in DL New Colors. As well as B744

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Gkirk
Posted 2008-04-15 00:33:54 and read 32206 times.

Will DL keep the 787 order? Should be able to get rid of the 330s very easily if that's what they were to do

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-15 00:47:39 and read 32110 times.

I'm pretty certain that they need both, for the moment.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 01:03:46 and read 31991 times.

The Dc 9s will go (sadly as I am a huge fan of T-Tail, rear engine aircraft and the airports are now dominated by A320/737NGs and EJet) and I also believe the MD 80/90s won´t stay very long.
Some 757s will go, too, they will have a huge 757 fleet and I can not imagine that all 757s will be needed, so they will sell them as long as they get a good price for them. They are in high demand so DL/NW won´t have any problems. I also expect some older 767s to leave the fleet as the new airline will have a huge longhaul fleet of 747/777/767/A330 and 757W.
Maybe some 747s will be converted to freighters and 777s will be used instead. The A330 will be kept and mainly used on the Atlantic routes (LHR, FRA, CDG, AMS), A332 will likely serve the Pacific routes with the 777.
757-300 are a good workhorse, too, and likely be kept, too.
Some of NWs A320s are also very old, I expect them to be retired soon. Interesting is if the order for the 737-700 will be converted into 737-800 as they have a huge A319 fleet now. They could replace some older A320 with 737-800 as they are about the same size and keep the newer A320 and A319s.
Interesting is what the new airline will order in the future, they are the new "Pan Am" and could use some aircraft above the 777-200.
747-8I/Fs are a possibility and Boeing would give them a good deal on them for sure. I don´think they would order the A380. The big advantage of the 747 is that it comes as a freighter and that it holds more cargo. I doubt that DL/NW will be competing with SQ and their first class suites so they don´t need the bigger fuselage of the A380.
The 787 order will be kept and will replace the 767s and A330s in the long term maybe some A350-900 and -1000s will replace the 777-200ER and part of the 747s in the future.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PM
Posted 2008-04-15 01:21:21 and read 31854 times.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 4):
Will DL keep the 787 order?

Early delivery slots (say, 2018...?  duck  ) on the 787! They'd be mad to give them up.

My question (no surprises there) is whether they'll stay withh RR for subsequent orders...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Haggis79
Posted 2008-04-15 01:56:08 and read 31619 times.

hmm... what may be interesting to see if they move SLC-CDG to a 332 (if that route stays, that is). I heard the 763ER might have problems with hot-and-high performance, whereas the 332 might be better off. Besides, the 332 is much more comfortable in Y (at least with the current interior of the respective aircrafts), so it might be better suited for an interhub route...?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Heavierthanair
Posted 2008-04-15 02:13:28 and read 31520 times.

G'day

With the A 320 joining the fleet Delta finally gets an aircraft that fully meets the extensive specification Delta have written up in the late eighties for a single aisle aircraft to replace the Boeing 727 and meeting their future needs. Delta chose the MD 80, then the MD 88 and finally the MD 90, none of which really came close to the specification.

With a slight delay of some 30 years they get what they wanted, but it is better being late than never.  Smile

Cheers

Peter

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: QFA380
Posted 2008-04-15 02:53:54 and read 31271 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 6):
The Dc 9s will go (sadly as I am a huge fan of T-Tail, rear engine aircraft and the airports are now dominated by A320/737NGs and EJet) and I also believe the MD 80/90s won´t stay very long.

This will be sad, I would have really loved to go on a NW DC-9.

Will they be replaced by 737s or A320s? Which fleet is smaller/closer to retirement out of NW's and DL's?

How long until Delta takes up a 'normal' fleet, ie not having competeing aircraft in the fleet?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Atlantaflyboy
Posted 2008-04-15 03:00:28 and read 31233 times.

I am wondering what will happen to all the US based non-hub international flying that NWA currently does - SEA/PDX - NRT, EWR/BDL-AMS, etc? Will these US to Foreign Hub (AMS, NRT) flights be retained or will the aircraft quickly be reshuffled to focus on the major US hubs and provide further international growth from the fortresses in ATL, DTW and NYC instead? Also could this help begin DL's long anticipated international push in LAX?

To me it would seem to make sense to trim AMS and NRT flying from oddball cities (the NW approach) and focus instead on buttressing the US Hub to foreign destination flying (the DL Approach). Sure could help to free up some A330's, 747's and 757's to fuel growth until a large # of 787's get online.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NW7E7
Posted 2008-04-15 03:48:14 and read 30996 times.

Start ordering more PAINT!! R.I.P. NW tombstone 

I wonder how good the acft would look if you swapped the red and blue colors on the current DL c/s. That way we would still have the red tails!

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2008-04-15 03:52:01 and read 30964 times.

To what extent do DL and NW have overlapping international routes that will need to be reviewed?

One destination that comes to my mind is DUS form where DL serves Atlanta and NW serves Detroit. Most of the traffic, I presume, is connecting traffic, so to some extent these flights compete with each other given the relatively small size of the market on the German end.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Skymiler
Posted 2008-04-15 04:01:42 and read 30904 times.



Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
With the A 320 joining the fleet Delta finally gets an aircraft that fully meets the extensive specification Delta have written up in the late eighties for a single aisle aircraft to replace the Boeing 727 and meeting their future needs. Delta chose the MD 80, then the MD 88 and finally the MD 90, none of which really came close to the specification.

This was known as the "Delta 150"
Does anybody have a copy of or a synopsis of that specification?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyguyPBI
Posted 2008-04-15 04:21:51 and read 30737 times.

Well, after observing the Western Merge and the Pan Am "merge" talk about how the fleet gets redeployed is a hot topic in the crew rooms.

753: Florida.. here they come! No brainer here

MD90: Safe and will stay. Small fleet but very specific needs and uses.

73G : Coin toss. The A319 can do the runs that we are buying the NG's for. Maybe convert the 73G orders to 738?

744: Maybe deploy that to J-erg. Loads have been great and the 764 could go elsewhere on Transatlantic. ( personal note: Cannot WAIT to bid a trip on that bird....)

DC9: They'll go quickly.

752 : I think we will keep the majority of both fleets. Look at the new life and uses these birds have found in the last 3 years.

763: Domestic. We'll see these back on routes where they were pulled from before.

And one last prediction : Now that this merger is happening....... the combined carrier now has the equipment to start service into Sydney. It will happen, just a matter of where and with what equipment.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: JFK787NYC
Posted 2008-04-15 04:36:58 and read 30608 times.



Quoting Atlantaflyboy (Reply 11):
am wondering what will happen to all the US based non-hub international flying that NWA currently does - SEA/PDX - NRT, EWR/BDL-AMS, etc? Will these US to Foreign Hub (AMS, NRT) flights be retained or will the aircraft quickly be reshuffled to focus on the major US hubs and provide further international growth from the fortresses in ATL, DTW and NYC instead? Also could this help begin DL's long anticipated international push in LAX?

To me it would seem to make sense to trim AMS and NRT flying from oddball cities (the NW approach) and focus instead on buttressing the US Hub to foreign destination flying (the DL Approach). Sure could help to free up some A330's, 747's and 757's to fuel growth until a large # of 787's get online.

Delta will not trim down AMS. and 100% not NRT. This deal makes sense because of NWA's presence in Far East.

NWA Current non-stops to AMS will stay as a hub point in Europe
DL Current non-stops to CDG will stay as a hub point in Europe

NRT will receive service from JFK.

This deal gives a huge boost to AF-KLM as well SKYTEAM will turn out to be the most effective alliance in the world.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2008-04-15 04:51:26 and read 30463 times.

As to the A vs B issue, I suspect that since Delta is in charge the preference for Boeing will remain. There will be no big rush to get rid of Airbus planes, and any contracts for Airbus planes will probably be kept. The A330's will stay but new planes in that size will most likely be 787's. The main question is what will happen with the A320's. I suspect that they will take the 737's on order (perhaps changing the73G's to 738's) but not order any new planes until the 737RS is available, and retiring the oldest and least efficient planes in the fleet, as I suspect the combined fleet will have more NB's than they need. Much as I hate to say it, that probably means sayonara to the DC-9's (I never thought I'd have to say that.) So for a while going forward they will be flying A320's, MD-80's, 737's and 757's. Down the road the MD-80's and A320's will probably be replaced by 737RS's. There is a chance that, with all the trouble Boeing is having with the 787 that the A320RS will beat the 737RS, in which case the game may change, but I doubt it.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: TK787
Posted 2008-04-15 04:52:34 and read 30442 times.

It all looks very complicated for the near future.
I would love DL to keep ordering Boeing but in the mean time what are the chances of getting 330 on the JFK-IST route, at least in summers?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Flying Belgian
Posted 2008-04-15 04:53:51 and read 30457 times.

Very sad for NW's livery it really one of the best. That classy beige was so handsome.

Their A330s in that livery was one of the best looking aircraft around. Sad


FB.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2008-04-15 05:00:27 and read 30322 times.



Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
If Delta's management dominates, they may well stick to the gentlemen's agreement with Boeing



Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
If NWA's management is influential, the door may remain open for Airbus.

And if they are rational and uses alot of common sense they will choose the aircraft that is best for it's mission.

The main reason for the whole merger is to benefit from synergies and to eliminate redundancies.
In order to do this, the new Delta needs to get rid of quite a few aircrafts.

Where they have two overlapping aircrafts, the under-performing model has to go.

In this case the DC9 and MD 80 are the narrowbodies that has to go, while among widebodies the 767s and 744s has go to for leaving A330, 787's and 777's in the new fleet.
This will leave Delta with maximum fuel efficient fleet, which will be the only way to survive in the long run.

Just my humble opinion.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-04-15 05:17:24 and read 30184 times.

While DL now has a very varied fleet, it has a very flexible one, as well. The A330 fleet offers opportunities the 767 didn't and it will serve as a nice bridge until the 787s start to arrive.

I do expect DL to stay with the 787, since NW had chosen it as an eventual A330 replacement and it makes sense as a 767 replacement for DL. I also believe that DL will continue to order 777-200LRs as opposed to moving to the A350. NW's pilot's contract includes the 777, so there should be no problem there.

VLAs could be interesting. With a merged entity and the likely tie-up with AF/KL, the A380-800 starts to have relevance for service to AMS, CDG and NRT. And this should force ATL's hand to adapt itself to handle the plane. On the flip side, the 747-8I and 777-300ER would work, as well, and they can let AF (and KL?) handle the "heavy lifting" from the US hubs to CDG and AMS with their A380-800s.

As to narrowbodies, DL will likely try and hold off on large purchases until the next-generation models become available.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2008-04-15 05:18:55 and read 30144 times.

I think not much will change in the medium term, but some fleet assignments might change a bit. I can see some 330s going on the longer European routes with the displaced 767s replacing those aircraft out of AMS over the Atlantic. I think most would accept that this is a given.

I think the DC-9 and MD-80 will take the brunt of the NB fleet reductions, but I dont know that they would go as quickly as some say. These aircraft make money for NW right now and there are few readily available options in the size class unless DL reduces frequencies on DC-9 routes.

In the long term I think the remainder of the MD-80s the 737s and the 320s will all be replaced by a new narrowbody, from Boeing or Airbus, at the lower end the C-series is also in with a shout, I would have thought.

Just my thoughts;
Brian.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-15 05:22:35 and read 30099 times.

On CNBC this morning Richie and Dougie mentioned there is overlapping on only 12 routes by the two carriers.
safe

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: GSPSPOT
Posted 2008-04-15 05:31:28 and read 29986 times.



Quoting Atlantaflyboy (Reply 11):
To me it would seem to make sense to trim AMS and NRT flying from oddball cities (the NW approach) and focus instead on buttressing the US Hub to foreign destination flying (the DL Approach).

Remember, we've got Open Skies now, so these "oddball" routes might become the norm.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2008-04-15 05:39:32 and read 29846 times.

The first thing I would do is replace the Delta 777 used from TLV to Atlanta with an NW A332. The 744 will be replaced new 748 or 77W's. NW A332 will continue to fly the SFO/PDX/SEA to NRT routes, some DL 767 may fly the MSP/DTW to Europe markets. AS well some NW A330 could fly to Souh America & a NW 744 could fly to LHR from JFK as well as JFK to NRT again.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: BWI757
Posted 2008-04-15 05:42:30 and read 31962 times.

Let's not forget that ANOTHER livery will probably be developed at some point. That leaves us with a fleet of:

1) Bowling shoe
2) Silver red
3) Widget
4) Wavy gravy
5) New Delta
6) The new combined livery

Then the spotters and frame-trackers will have a field day  spin 

Maybe the Delta Widget will become the "pointer" in the new Red Tail? Or will the "pointer" be incorporated into the "widget"?

Questions, Questions. The debate will rage on.

BWI757

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2008-04-15 05:43:37 and read 31656 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
VLAs could be interesting. With a merged entity and the likely tie-up with AF/KL, the A380-800 starts to have relevance for service to AMS, CDG and NRT. And this should force ATL's hand to adapt itself to handle the plane. On the flip side, the 747-8I and 777-300ER would work, as well, and they can let AF (and KL?) handle the "heavy lifting" from the US hubs to CDG and AMS with their A380-800s.

The A388 is probably not in the cards for the new DL, especially on anything over the Atlantic. You will see AF A388s in JFK, but there is not good reason to send them to ATL. They really don't give any advantage, especially with the terminal being the constraint (the A380 will actually decrease the capacity of concourse E). Hell even CDG and AMS are not really constrained airports, any slot limits outside of a few times are artificial. I do think that B77Ws are in the cards.

I do agree that long-term there will be a rationalization; however, until the pilots reach a combined agreement there is not a whole lot of need to reduce types. The key will be to eliminate aircraft that cannot make money. This probably means we will see fewer RJs, DC9s and MD80s. Unless there is significant movement on the integration of the pilot lists in the near future I predict the following.

MD88/MD90 - There really isn't a plane that can truly replace this set right now, everything else is larger or smaller than the MD88, which does amazingly well on the shorter routes it operates. I think MTC costs will end this before fuel, that is if fuel costs kill the MD88 entirely it will kill the flights and routes it operates.

B73G/B738 - the cost of adding the B73G is minimal and giving the B73G routes to NW pilots prior to a seniority merger will look like negotiating in bad faith.

A319/A320 - This fleet will probably shrink since a good portion of it is older than the B737 fleet at DL; however, before the pilots merge this will be soley through route management.

B757 – Not going anywhere, however the older DL & NW B752s will slowly go as their MTC cost become prohibative

B767 – I see no change in the fleet, except for retirements due to age and MTC costs, this will first happen with the non-ER B763s, no timeline here. I also think the the B763ER and B764ER upgrades will continue. There is no reason to replace them with the existing A332s. What will happen is a reassessment of which routes get which planes. The A332s will probably be fixed on the Pacific and long range TATL. The interesting mix is how the B764s and A333s will be mixed

A332/A333 – The A332s fit a good niche until the B787s come online. What I don't have a good feel for is the A333s. They work on transatlantic flights and a few pacific routes. I know there are quite a few of the, 21, but depending upon their lease/ownership status they might not stay all that long. Of course there is no reason to eliminate them wholesale prior to a joint pilots agreement

B777s – They are what they are, no other aircraft in the new DL fleet has the capabilities of either the B77E or the B77L, only the B744 approaches the B77E in range. I expect to see continued additions. This is the aircraft that could cause a realignment of the NRT hub.

B744 – I expect these aircraft to be phased-out as replacements become availible, given the B777 status in both contracts the B77W probably has the edge here.

B787 – No change, though there may be a reassessment of the engine man if the operations model has changed enough to change the value of the choice. Also depending on delays and the value of individual slots, early slots could be sold/swapped for later ones.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: QantasHeavy
Posted 2008-04-15 05:44:24 and read 31600 times.

Maybe now DL will be able to make Asia work; NW has for years. Will be an interesting fleet, lots of variety.

Will be a shame to see NW's livery go away... that silver was great.

Who knows... maybe we'll see them in Australia afterall with the 777-200LR or 747-400!

One would certainly think MEM and CVG would be at risk.

Who knows... if CO leaves and goes to Star (a UA merger, if the rumors pan out) maybe DL will bring back something into DFW bigger than a Cessna. I loved the good ole days of DL L1011s and MD-11s, plus fleets of 75/767s at their terminal.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2008-04-15 05:45:52 and read 31576 times.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 4):
Will DL keep the 787 order? Should be able to get rid of the 330s very easily if that's what they were to do

The A330's are new, good planes, and NW owns a substantial number of them. I don't see DL selling them just to clean up the fleet sheet, at least not in the short or medium term. 787's are for growth.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
On CNBC this morning Richie and Dougie mentioned there is overlapping on only 12 routes by the two carriers.
safe

That's probably true in a literal sense - routes like ATL-MSP, etc.

However, somebody mentioned the example of DUS, a European station with one daily flight each from DTW and ATL. Destinations like this could easily be served just once daily, freeing a bird for another route, driving up yields, etc.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-15 05:48:45 and read 31773 times.

A DL A330 and 744 would sure look nice  Smile

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Tjwgrr
Posted 2008-04-15 05:51:24 and read 31951 times.

The photo shop boys have been busy:


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Not sure about the winglets:

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One we probably won't see:  Sad


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Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2008-04-15 05:51:53 and read 31424 times.

Was wondering what the impact of this merger will be on NW Cargo operation. As NW is the only US Passenger carrier to operate a fleet of freighters, will DL continue this operation and commitment to their cargo product/services? Personally think it would be an excellent shot in the arm, but you can't tell when passenger dominated airlines get a hold of a freighter operation what they will do.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-15 05:57:17 and read 31290 times.



Quoting BWI757 (Reply 26):
Maybe the Delta Widget will become the "pointer" in the new Red Tail? Or will the "pointer" be incorporated into the "widget"?

Just point the widget to the northwest and I'll be happy as hell!
Its a symbolic thing, folks
safe

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-15 06:07:21 and read 31063 times.



Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 31):
One we probably won't see:

Wow, that looks brilliant.

Think that all looks nice in DLs livery, besides the 744.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-04-15 06:10:15 and read 30945 times.

It appears that the timeline is about 6 months for the financial side merged but a year more to get the certificates and all done...which means late 2009/early 2010 before any fleet rationalization begins I would guess....DL would fly DL and NW would fly NW until then.

"The two executives said they expect the regulatory review of the merger to take six to eight months. If the federal government gives its OK, the two companies would still operate separately for a year afterward as they plan their transition."
http://www.startribune.com/business/17672684.html

guess put the paintbrushes away...grin. However, by then there could be a design final on the next gen of narrowbody by either Airbus or Boeing which could make the speculation really good!! grin

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-15 06:14:35 and read 31017 times.



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 35):
It appears that the timeline is about 6 months for the financial side merged but a year more to get the certificates and all done...which means late 2009/early 2010 before any fleet rationalization begins I would guess....DL would fly DL and NW would fly NW until then.

Argh, I hate when things take so long time. Cant they just fix it this year  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bigbird
Posted 2008-04-15 06:19:24 and read 30745 times.

All of you remember this. None of this will take place without Mr. Bush s approval and that without any pilot s agreement all you that you are going to wind up with is DL North(MSP) and DL South(ATL). I do presume that all of you have not forgotten about US and their problems. After all, that is 3 years and counting.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: ORDagent
Posted 2008-04-15 06:21:53 and read 30710 times.

I can just about bet you that both Airbus and Boeing are a bit nervous about the merger. Not only will they both have to re pitch product and since the new DL is so huge the orders will be too. IMHO DL will not necessarily keep the Boeing gentleman's agreement as they now have enough power on the market to get the absolute best offers from both. IIRC the senior management will be from the DL side.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2008-04-15 06:38:48 and read 30293 times.

With the delay on the 787s, they might be able to pick up good deals on a few 777s or maybe even 737NGs. . .

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-04-15 06:45:52 and read 30402 times.



Quoting NW7E7 (Reply 12):
Start ordering more PAINT!! R.I.P. NW tombstone



Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 19):
Very sad for NW's livery it really one of the best. That classy beige was so handsome.

Their A330s in that livery was one of the best looking aircraft around.

I agree... Sad


It will be a shame to see those beauties go.... Sad


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Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WingnutMN
Posted 2008-04-15 06:47:51 and read 30151 times.

Lets not forget that Richard Anderson was the CEO at NW when all of the A330's and more 320's were ordered at NW. I'm pretty sure that NW chose the 330s over the 777s because of better economics across the atlantic. IF Airbus offers a better airplane than Boeing in the future, then Anderson should choose Airbus again. Don't do whats best for A.netters egos, do whats best for the airline!!!

WingnutMN

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Chris133
Posted 2008-04-15 06:47:55 and read 30128 times.

Does anyone see them closing the Hub in MEM and re-starting a Hub or at least a larger operation at DFW?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2008-04-15 06:49:55 and read 30030 times.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 4):
Will DL keep the 787 order? Should be able to get rid of the 330s very easily if that's what they were to do

And replace them with what? I don't think for second that the frequencies to AMS or NRT will be eliminated. They would be mad to do that. And DL doesn't currently have any aircraft on their fleet that can replace the A330's. In fact, even if they had the money, there is no Boeing aircraft available for purchase that could replace the A330's. I think those will stay for a very long time. I would be more concerned about the 777's than the A330's because the 777's are a much smaller subfleet.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2008-04-15 06:50:07 and read 30007 times.



Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 20):
And if they are rational and uses alot of common sense they will choose the aircraft that is best for it's mission.

DING! It's just that simple. The machine has to maximize revenue. The hood ornament is irrelevant.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2008-04-15 07:15:40 and read 29493 times.

Will DL install IFE on the NWA domestic equip.?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SlcDeltaRUmd11
Posted 2008-04-15 07:16:46 and read 29566 times.

DL will never to put a 747 on JFK-LHR the 767s are practically empty on one flight a day and not the that amazing on the other. The market has lots of competition delta flies the route for the overall corporate contracts and for the premium traffic. Hopefully it will pick up over time. JFK-NRT will return with a 777 would be my first guess. A 747 is just too large and the route is well served as is. DL shifted this route to ATL because it was practically empty when it was a MD-11 but now with NW in NRT i think it might be profitable. The only problem is i think AA has alot of the business contracts on the route right now.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: YWG747
Posted 2008-04-15 07:17:17 and read 29464 times.



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
there is overlapping on only 12 routes by the two carriers

I was wonder how many routes they over lapped. With it only being 12 I dont see allot of fleet personnel decreases.
I am sure some of the old planes (DC9's/MD80's) will be gone by the wayside for a more efficient aircraft.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NYC777
Posted 2008-04-15 07:19:11 and read 29418 times.

Once the merger is done I could see DL exercising the 50 787 options that NW will bring with it and then add more options to cover the 767/A330 segment of the fleet. More 777s will be ordered perhaps (and dare I say it)...the 77W?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2008-04-15 07:20:02 and read 29444 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 45):
Will DL install IFE on the NWA domestic equip.?

Its a maybe

Does anyone know when DL will announce the livery?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dl767captain
Posted 2008-04-15 07:59:38 and read 28626 times.

This is going to be an extremely diverse fleet that will remain that way for a while. The only common jet is the 757 and they dont even have the same engines (do they?)

I see Boeing getting future orders but airbus remaining in the fleet for a long time until it is time to be replaced or retired.

Right now DC-9 and MD-80 fleets need to be replaced setime soon to help with rising fuel costs, DL still has a bunch of 738s on order that they could take delivery of. Does NW still have A320s on order? If so they may be taken to help with replacement but I see them selling them off to another airline... Like UA to replace older 737s. The A330s will stay for a while I just wonder if the new airline will find some more interesting routes to put them on, and what will happen with the interior? New diagonal seats and biz elite lie flat seats? The 747s will stay for a while, with now DL and NW passengers using the same airline to fly to Asia so they will need something bigger than the 787 for the main Asia routes, they could try the 77W with engine commanality for the 772LR and with the diagonal seating it could be a good replacement but I really see them ordering the 748 and turning the 744s into freighters and retiring the 742Fs. I have a feeling they might try and create a premium economy at least for international ops to compete with other international airlines and will need a larger plane than the 77W but who knows.

I am really interested in what they are going to do for the cabins and AVOD I hope they adopt the DL cabin etc. Whats going to be interesting is how long it takes to repaint the fleet, will we see a redesign in the color scheme

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 08:00:47 and read 28135 times.

Here's how I see it assuming the merger goes through:

-DL will continue to receive 77Ls and will order 77Ws to replace 744s
-787s will remain on order and order will be increased to 60 once Boeing firms up schedules
-777s will be pulled from Europe, flying Asia and Africa
-A330s and 767s will fly all "medium long hauls" to the EU and South America
-more A330s may be ordered for EU expansion
-Oldest 763s will be take out of service, and other slowly retired
-764s will return to domestic and hawaii
-753s will be pulled from Hawaii, serve Orlando.
-752s will fly all over the USA, maybe pulled from TATL.
-738s will continue to be delivered to replace MD80s
-73G will be converted to 738, as A319 is redundant
-A319/A320 remain in fleet, with A319s added to replace MD80s
-DC9/MD80 fleets will be phased out
-E190 or new 110 seater will come in to replace DC9

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-15 08:03:15 and read 28016 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
Here's how I see it assuming the merger goes through:

Brilliant list Ikramercia. But it will take so many years before it will look like that.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-15 08:05:56 and read 27956 times.

This is a great day for DL and NW; as I have repeatedly said, this is a merger of addition, not subtraction. Neither airline would have been able to do on their own what DL can do with NW on board.

I strongly encourage everyone that is interested in knowing what is going on to read DL’s SEC filing which includes the presentation that was part of the investor conference call (link on delta.com under investor relations).

Couple points from a fleet/network perspective.

One theme that came through loud and clear from the conference call is that DL and NW will optimize their fleets to create the best opportunities for matching capacity and demand.

DL and NW execs both said that there is great opportunity to use NW’s larger widebodies on DL’s ATL int’l routes while DL’s smaller int’l a/c (767s) will move to DTW and MSP. Also, the DC9s will be used in ATL (there are NOT going anywhere).

There may be a need to pursue a 100 seater replacement in the future (but I expect that DL will opt for used 150 seat aircraft in addition to the 120 seat A319s and 737-700s.

You will very likely see that the A330s and some 744s will move to ATL to serve a number of international routes. The conference call specifically mentioned GRU, TLV, and NRT as being able to support larger int’l aircraft. A DL 744 on ATLTLV and ATLGRU, anyone?

DL expects 50% of the international fleet and 10% of the domestic fleet to be moved to increase new int’l revenue opportunities. The NW int’l fleet will become commonly seen in DL hubs, esp. ATL.

The 319 and 737-700 will both remain. They are subfleets and do not incur higher costs. The 73G has significantly more performance than the 319 so it will likely be used for Latin America/Caribbean but the 319 is ideal for CVG and MEM to the west and to develop new long thin routes from ATL and JFK.

The additional complexity of having multiple fleet types is more than offset by the ability to match demand and capacity far better than has been done before.

Owned regional carriers will be favored over contract carriers, a lot was said about Mesaba and Compass and their ability to rightsize and move capacity just as is being done for mainline.

Exciting days. Read, read, read.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 08:08:39 and read 27893 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
-764s will return to domestic and hawaii

I highly doubt it. That was one of the reasons why Delta went into bankruptcy. Yes, Florida used to be a big money maker for Delta, but things changed drastically after 9/11.

Delta can make much more money using them internationally. Returning them to domestic routes would result in too much domestic capacity, as NW operates the 757-300 and Delta operates the 767-300. Most of Delta's 767-400ER routes (inclding the transatlantic routes) do not require the range or cargo capacity of the A330.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2008-04-15 08:08:37 and read 27914 times.

Future fleet : longhaul : 763ER/764, 330 (of course they will stay, they are the newest and most modern besides the few 77Ls for DL), 772ER/LR (additional order likely). Someday, the 787 for expansion, and perhaps the 77W. A rather classic, homogeneous and solid fleet. I doubt the 744 will stay very long (why I see the 77W coming).
Intra-continental fleet : 757-200/300, 737NG, A319, perhaps the A320 if they are still young enough, unless second-hand market asks for more..., same for the MD90.
Regional fleet : oops, I can see big cuts here... ERJ190 the most likely future order IMO.

Quoting NW7E7 (Reply 12):
Start ordering more PAINT!!

You mean for the ugly, disgusting c/s of DL... Hopefully they will keep NW's best : the colour.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 08:10:04 and read 27853 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 52):
Brilliant list Ikramercia. But it will take so many years before it will look like that.

Too true. Though I think it will be faster for the 744 and DC9 retirements. DL already has 777 orders and options and could have 77Ws rather quickly. While people say the 744 is "needed" into NRT, with DL/NW having more routes to NRT than NW alone, 77Ws will feed equal or more traffic with that number of slots than the current mix of A330s, 772s and 744s do.

But hell, they could surprise us and order 10 748s. Which would be sweet.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Rwy04LGA
Posted 2008-04-15 08:14:42 and read 27713 times.



Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Boeing no longer offers a full range of state-of-the-art products

Says who? You? That's your opinion and not fact.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2008-04-15 08:15:27 and read 27730 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 53):
You will very likely see that the A330s and some 744s will move to ATL to serve a number of international routes. The conference call specifically mentioned GRU, TLV, and NRT as being able to support larger int’l aircraft. A DL 744 on ATLTLV and ATLGRU, anyone?

That would be AMAZING! I've thought about maybe the A333s to GRU. I don't really see the 747s leaving the Asian market.

[Edited 2008-04-15 08:20:08]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: VonRichtofen
Posted 2008-04-15 08:15:23 and read 27716 times.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
It will be a shame to see those beauties go....

Indeed, one of the best liveries out there by far.



What kind of total fleet numbers will we see with the two airlines merged? That'll probably be the largest airline by fleet size the world has ever seen (not including Aeroflot in the communist Russia days).

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-04-15 08:17:48 and read 27655 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 56):
But hell, they could surprise us and order 10 748s. Which would be sweet

That would just be amazing. DL ordering the 748s will probably never happen.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-15 08:19:53 and read 27672 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 56):
But hell, they could surprise us and order 10 748s. Which would be sweet.

According to the two CEO's, the 744's will be kept and some moved, perhaps to ATL and DL has a serious interest in
the 777LR. The new DL will be the worlds largest 767, A330's and 757 operator, per Anderson.
safe

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2008-04-15 08:28:48 and read 27398 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 53):
The conference call specifically mentioned GRU, TLV, and NRT as being able to support larger int’l aircraft. A DL 744 on ATLTLV and ATLGRU, anyone?

The 744s will be gone before long.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 61):
According to the two CEO's, the 744's will be kept and some moved,

And... do you believe him?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyingDoctorWu
Posted 2008-04-15 08:29:19 and read 27383 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
-DL will continue to receive 77Ls and will order 77Ws to replace 744s
-787s will remain on order and order will be increased to 60 once Boeing firms up schedules
-777s will be pulled from Europe, flying Asia and Africa
-A330s and 767s will fly all "medium long hauls" to the EU and South America
-more A330s may be ordered for EU expansion
-Oldest 763s will be take out of service, and other slowly retired
-764s will return to domestic and hawaii
-753s will be pulled from Hawaii, serve Orlando.
-752s will fly all over the USA, maybe pulled from TATL.
-738s will continue to be delivered to replace MD80s
-73G will be converted to 738, as A319 is redundant
-A319/A320 remain in fleet, with A319s added to replace MD80s
-DC9/MD80 fleets will be phased out
-E190 or new 110 seater will come in to replace DC9

Nice list... I think the 787 will be the futuer of the company. DL gains access to a great NW asset- the 18 firm orders and 50 options NW has for the 787. Now there will be a rational plan for the future of the 767. I see the 767 in service until a sufficient 787 fleet has been amassed... Future ad-on orders for the 787 will replace the A330.... The big question is what will the new airline do in the 300+ seat department. 747-8? 77W? A350? I doubt the A380 will fit into their plans. I see the narrowbody 115+ seat market going all boeing eventually (though it'll take a while-> look at UA/US Boeing 737 fleet still).

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-04-15 08:30:32 and read 27329 times.



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
This will be sad, I would have really loved to go on a NW DC-9.

I think they be around for at least one more year

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
On CNBC this morning Richie and Dougie mentioned there is overlapping on only 12 routes

That is a garbage point. They compoete in 100s of citypairs

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
Was wondering what the impact of this merger will be on NW Cargo operation

Is it profitable, It might be spun off. I could see that. Dl/NW will need cash to pay for this monster

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 42):
Does anyone see them closing the Hub in MEM and re-starting a Hub or at least a larger operation at DFW?

Yes. MEM closes and no DFW doesnt reopem. Combining DL and NW doesnt improve DL's awful competitive position at DFW one bit. Plus they will have enough problems merging without opening a new hub

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-04-15 08:33:16 and read 27303 times.

would DL keep the 744's, or do you think they'd go the way of AA with TWA?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Misbeehavin
Posted 2008-04-15 08:33:29 and read 27380 times.



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
On CNBC this morning Richie and Dougie mentioned there is overlapping on only 12 routes by the two carriers.

Hmm... I could get only 11:

ATL-MEM
ATL-DTW
ATL-MSP
CVG-DTW
CVG-MSP
SLC-MSP
SLC-DTW
JFK-DTW
JFK-MSP
LAX-HNL
LAX-LAS

ANy idea what the 12th would be?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2008-04-15 08:34:10 and read 27248 times.

In my oppinion I think you will see the two carriers operate as seperate entities for a while - sort of like KLM and Air France because it is going to take a few years to sort everything out because I don't think anyone has any idea yet what will exactly happen.

You might start seeing Northwest A330s and 747s operating out of ATL for a while, while DL 767-300 and 777-200s start operating out of DTW and MSP. The 767-300 would be great for MSP - Scandinavia, or DTW-WAW. At the same time, I could see the 747 being used to NRT - ATL and the A330 being used CDG-ATL.

The DC-9s won't go away overnight, but they will be the first planes to go... so to run thru the fleet. A lot of this depends on ownership vs. leasing - I don't have the numbers for that:

737NG/737-800: Probably will stay, since the oldest are less than 10 years old

747-400: They will keep them in some way or another. They are needed for those dense DTW-NRT routes that come in full all the time, maybe even use them for Sky team hubs in dense routes - DTW-AMS, ATL-CDG, ATL-ICN. If not, I think DL would be foolish to get rid of Northwest's big cargo operation so they might convert them to freighters and get rid of the 200s. Also I think DL would keep them for the football charters in the fall since both Northwest and Delta are big in sports charters.

757-200: Both have aging 757s and both have new 757s. I am sure all the 757s built before 1990 will be disposed of, however DL and NW use different engines on their 757s - who to keep?

757-300: Might be still used as the Disney Cattle Car - ie DTW and MSP - MCO, maybe even ATL-MCO, but I think that they will only be around for a few years, maybe then sold to Continental

767-300: Might see more of these domestically since DL will be gaining A330s from NW - used in hub to hub flights - DTW-ATL, MSP-SLC, and probably Disney runs, maybe wide bodies again used for west coast - ATL-LAX, DTW-LAX etc. They would also be used on new smaller routes - DTW-WAW, MSP-Stockholm, DTW - MXP However I think a huge additional order for 787-8s and 9s will come and replace the 767-300, 767-400 and A330s.

767-400: Oddball of the fleet, might be used more domestically again while A330s are used to Europe. Probably see them hourly between MCO-ATL, maybe used from MCO-DTW and MSP too, however will probably be sold to Continental.
787 will replace them

777-200 - not going anywhere, new routes open up in Asia - will see a lot of these up at DTW and MSP now.

A319 - oldest is less than 10 years old, probably hang on to them to replace DC-9s on the routes they flew until Delta decides which type to go with 737NGs or Airbus family

A320 - ditto above

A330-200- Probably kept where they are SEA-NRT etc until 787 replaces them

A330-300: Used to Europe from MSP, SLC, DTW, ATL until 787-8 and 9 come (remember, Delta order will be far back in line now)

MD-88: Will be deployed over Delta's new network along with A319s, 320s and 737-800s to replace Northwests last DC-9s. Will be next to go after DC-9s as Delta probably won't want to hushkit a huge fleet of them when Stage IV noise regulations happen, whenever that will be.

MD-90: Probably hang on to them for the current routes they are on until the 737 or A32X family is decided on too.

I guess regionals is another page.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2008-04-15 08:36:53 and read 27232 times.

So. Finally, we know the answer about the famous "When will NW retire it's DC-9?" question:

Never, because NW will cease to exist before retiring them!

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Shankly
Posted 2008-04-15 08:39:55 and read 27128 times.

It is well recorded that Delta did not have a happy time with its inherited A310's

However, the A319, A332 and A333 are brilliantly capable aircraft in their respective classes and one suspects that once the DL influenced management has seen them in operation, the 100% pro-Boeing view might change, so spot on Ikra

A good recent example of this is BA, who inherited A320's with the BCAL take-over, having been a stead-fast Boeing customer. The baby buses turned out to be rather good on BA's routes and now form the back bone of BA's short/medium fleet

I have been a long time admirer of NWA. It is perhaps unique amongst US airlines (post Pan Am and TWA) in having a strong non-US profile thanks to its Asian and Dutch hubs. Continental perhaps coming closest to matching this in recent years. Delta however, might be big over there, but does not excite much over here. I fear that big will not mean better.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dalb777
Posted 2008-04-15 08:43:04 and read 27083 times.



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 67):
however DL and NW use different engines on their 757s

Both DL and NW use PW on their 757s...but are there different versions of the engine?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 08:49:50 and read 26971 times.



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 61):
According to the two CEO's, the 744's will be kept and some moved, perhaps to ATL and DL has a serious interest in

Kept until they are replaced. As launch customer, they fly some of the oldest 744s out there. With the new J product of DL, they will not hold the 400 pax they hold now. Anyone have a guess as to what they will hold? 380 maybe?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 08:52:07 and read 26865 times.



Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
Was wondering what the impact of this merger will be on NW Cargo operation. As NW is the only US Passenger carrier to operate a fleet of freighters, will DL continue this operation and commitment to their cargo product/services? Personally think it would be an excellent shot in the arm, but you can't tell when passenger dominated airlines get a hold of a freighter operation what they will do.

I wondered about that, myself. With DL's newfound interest in cargo, it might be beneficial for them to have a ready made cargo operation.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: MBJ2000
Posted 2008-04-15 08:56:13 and read 26775 times.



Quoting Shankly (Reply 69):
I have been a long time admirer of NWA. It is perhaps unique amongst US airlines (post Pan Am and TWA) in having a strong non-US profile thanks to its Asian and Dutch hubs. Continental perhaps coming closest to matching this in recent years. Delta however, might be big over there, but does not excite much over here. I fear that big will not mean better.

Exactly what I was thinking! People "over there" esp. the Deltoids can't accept the fact that nobody knows Delta in Europe, whereas Northwest is a whole different thing.
If they were clever they would keep Delta in the US and use Northwest as the only brand name in Europe...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-04-15 08:58:18 and read 26692 times.

[quote=Mayor,reply=72]I wondered about that, myself. With DL's newfound interest in cargo, it might be beneficial for them to have a ready made cargo operation.


I would seriously look at spinning off cargo

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Beertrucker
Posted 2008-04-15 09:04:01 and read 26642 times.

Does anyone else think it is funny that people are more worried about the livery and if it will change and or which one will be used over what the actually product will come out of this.

Also in the past how many airlines changed thier livery cuase of a merger, other then US AIrways which changed thier livery cause of the sun in PHX and LAS. When Delta did thier last mergers they did not change the livery. When AA took over TWA there was no change in livery other then taking off the black nose on the MD-80's. When CO took over NY and PE and the old Frontier they did not change thier livery. So why do you think they will change this time.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Scipio
Posted 2008-04-15 09:04:09 and read 26441 times.

Now that this is a much bigger airline, with a consolidated network and fewer but larger hubs, shouldn't we expect the average aircraft size to increase, especially for widebodies?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
As to narrowbodies, DL will likely try and hold off on large purchases until the next-generation models become available.

That might be too long a wait. A 2017-2018 EIS means that Delta would need to wait well beyond 2020 to get sufficient delivery slots for a substantial fleet renewal.

They can't keep on flying DC-9s and MD-80s until 2025.

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 57):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Boeing no longer offers a full range of state-of-the-art products

Says who? You? That's your opinion and not fact.

There is no 500+ seat Boeing on offer.

Whether the 747-8i will be state-of-the-art at EIS is a subject of debate on this board.

And it is clear now that Boeing will not have a state-of-the-art competitor ready when the A350 enters service.

Airbus has gaps in its product range too, and that contributes to a situation in which it is increasingly unappealing for airlines to remain loyal to one manufacturer. Better to pick the best from both, and that is what most airlines seem to be doing these days.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: TN757Flyer
Posted 2008-04-15 09:22:50 and read 26048 times.



Quoting Chris133 (Reply 42):
Does anyone see them closing the Hub in MEM and re-starting a Hub or at least a larger operation at DFW?

This topic has it's own thread.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 64):
That is a garbage point. They compoete in 100s of citypairs

So do all airlines. If this is a show-stopper for mergers, then none would be approved, ever.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: ETA Unknown
Posted 2008-04-15 09:27:20 and read 26009 times.

DL CEO was on some morning fluff television news show this morning mouthing off how great this merger will be as it'll be the first time a US airline has flown to all continents. I guess he doesn't remember Pan Am.

Now, not including Antarctica, does this statement mean he believes NW flies to Australia, or... scary thought... he thinks DL already does?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-04-15 09:32:01 and read 25858 times.



Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 78):
Now, not including Antarctica, does this statement mean he believes NW flies to Australia, or... scary thought... he thinks DL already does?

more likely he doesnt know Australia is a continent

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 09:32:28 and read 25855 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
more A330s may be ordered for EU expansion

That would be nice maybe even some A350s as they are bigger as the 787.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
-764s will return to domestic and hawaii

Guess that, too, that is what they were bought for and the A330 can do the job now.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
73G will be converted to 738, as A319 is redundant

I believe that, too, the 737-800 could replace older A320s and MDs.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
E190 or new 110 seater will come in to replace DC9

E190s are likely, CSeries and MRJ are too far behind, doubt they would order ARJ 21 or the Superjet (although ARJ 21 would be nice as it resembles the Dc 9)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 56):
But hell, they could surprise us and order 10 748s. Which would be sweet.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 60):
DL ordering the 748s will probably never happen.

Never say bever, they are the biggest US airline now, with a huge international network, 747 or A380s are an option we should not rule out completely as they are now a whole different company. 747-8Is would be definitely prefered over the A380.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 09:35:41 and read 25788 times.



Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 78):
DL CEO was on some morning fluff television news show this morning mouthing off how great this merger will be as it'll be the first time a US airline has flown to all continents. I guess he doesn't remember Pan Am.

Now, not including Antarctica, does this statement mean he believes NW flies to Australia, or... scary thought... he thinks DL already does?

Or he knows something we don't and it was his subconcious talking?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 09:36:08 and read 25781 times.

I wonder what John Leahy thinks of this merger: Either a "great opportunity to sell new A320s, A330s, A350s and A380s" or "ohhh sh+t, there goes one of our best customers"

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-15 09:51:47 and read 25645 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 82):
I wonder what John Leahy thinks of this merger: Either a "great opportunity to sell new A320s, A330s, A350s and A380s" or "ohhh sh+t, there goes one of our best customers"

When was the last NW Airbus order?  confused 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2008-04-15 09:53:32 and read 25497 times.



Quoting BWI757 (Reply 26):
Let's not forget that ANOTHER livery will probably be developed at some point



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 49):
Does anyone know when DL will announce the livery?

Why are you so sure that a new livery will be used? It's been clearly stated that the new airline will be Delta, and only Delta. And they've just spent all this time to money to create a new image for Delta. There's no point to change it. And forget the symbolic stuff - everyone will know that Northwest folded into Delta - we don't need a new logo to remind us that. Sorry for all you NW fans, but I just don't think it's necessary.

Further more, I think it's perfectly fine that you have your own opinion that there will be a new livery, but both of you seem to think it's general knowledge that it WILL be changed. Opinion is one thing, but fact/general knowledge is another.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: AutoThrust
Posted 2008-04-15 09:54:20 and read 25430 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 82):
great opportunity to sell new A320s, A330s, A350s and A380s" or "ohhh sh+t, there goes one of our best customers"

I guess rather the latter, with DL's gentleman agreement. And it seems DL Board is the leader.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 10:03:59 and read 25271 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
That would be nice maybe even some A350s as they are bigger as the 787.

Don't expect that. 777s will be with DL for quite a while, so they won't have any reservations about ordering 777s for delivery up through 2015.

Just to be clear, DL basically has no competitors that have ordered the A350 other than US. KL+AF have ordered the 77W, AC has the 77L and 77W. Ordering more 777s does not put DL at any sort of competitive disadvantage to anybody in the medium-long term, and puts them at a competitive advantage in the short term...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Lexy
Posted 2008-04-15 10:05:06 and read 25242 times.



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 84):
Why are you so sure that a new livery will be used? It's been clearly stated that the new airline will be Delta, and only Delta. And they've just spent all this time to money to create a new image for Delta. There's no point to change it. And forget the symbolic stuff - everyone will know that Northwest folded into Delta - we don't need a new logo to remind us that. Sorry for all you NW fans, but I just don't think it's necessary.

Further more, I think it's perfectly fine that you have your own opinion that there will be a new livery, but both of you seem to think it's general knowledge that it WILL be changed. Opinion is one thing, but fact/general knowledge is another.

I would have to agree with this 100%. There is no point in spending money AGAIN to change the livery of Delta. That's just pointless and it's equally pointless to have a "symbollic" livery" too.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2008-04-15 10:08:26 and read 25177 times.



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 16):
NWA Current non-stops to AMS will stay as a hub point in Europe
DL Current non-stops to CDG will stay as a hub point in Europe

They would be idiots to do this. Hubs make money. Hubs need a certain amount of critical mass to be really efficient. Consolidating to AMS or CDG would be in their best interest. Once they have done that, they can open a ton of smaller "finger routes" like ATL - CDG - AMS or ATL - LHR - CDG allowing them to compete with European carriers thanks to OpenSkies.

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 42):
Does anyone see them closing the Hub in MEM and re-starting a Hub or at least a larger operation at DFW?

No. AA and WN would eat them alive.

Quoting Columba (Reply 82):
I wonder what John Leahy thinks of this merger: Either a "great opportunity to sell new A320s, A330s, A350s and A380s" or "ohhh sh+t, there goes one of our best customers"

Probably both. But remember that NW already broke with Airbus on the 787.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 10:13:03 and read 25099 times.

Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
Guess that, too, that is what they were bought for and the A330 can do the job now.

As I stated, the 767-400ERs will NOT be moved back to domestic. There is way too much domestic capacity with the combined fleet of Delta's domestic 767-300s and NW's 757-300s. Delta has announced several months ago that they will receive the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites in BusinessElite, so don't expect them to be moved back to domestic if that is still the case.

The 767-400ERs do just fine on Delta's international routes. None of these routes would really benefit from the A330's range or cargo capacity. Longer routes such as JFK-TLV (currently served by a 767-300ER) would benefit more.

Plus, CO has been using their 767-400ERs on international routes from the start, and they don't have any problems with range or cargo.

[Edited 2008-04-15 10:14:15]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 10:14:59 and read 25073 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 88):
Probably both. But remember that NW already broke with Airbus on the 787.

Well, NW only has seven remaining Airbus orders anyway, all A320 series.

Other than 787s where the slots they have are as valuable as taking the planes themselves, NW has basically placed a moratorium on orders and new planes for a while now.

That means no loyalty to anyone. If you aren't actually buying anything, what does loyalty matter?

I see DL keeping up it's Boeing bias, but that doesn't preclude them from adding a few A330s or A319s if needed. I think A320s though are not going to increase at all. And A350s aren't on the horizon.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2008-04-15 10:28:48 and read 24754 times.



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 67):
767-400: Oddball of the fleet, might be used more domestically again while A330s are used to Europe.

330s already being used to EU. They don't have enough 330s available, or on order to replace the 764s. The 764s will keep at what they are doing is my bet.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 85):
I guess rather the latter, with DL's gentleman agreement. And it seems DL Board is the leader.

The gentlemanly agreement is nothing. They will buy what makes money in given circumstances. Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, whatever. To do otherwise is foolish and irresponsible.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 88):
Probably both. But remember that NW already broke with Airbus on the 787.

I rest my case.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 10:33:13 and read 24713 times.

Rechecking the NW 744 fleet, there are 10 that are 18-19 years old, and 6 that are 7-9 years old.

What that means to me is that the 6 newer ones can remain for quite a while, while the 20 year old ones (by 2010) can be replaced with 77Ws. This leaves the 744s for the routes that truly need it due to capacity, with the more efficient 77W taking over the routes where the 744 is used for range/cargo.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 91):
330s already being used to EU. They don't have enough 330s available, or on order to replace the 764s. The 764s will keep at what they are doing is my bet.

I don't think the A330s will continue going to NRT, nor to Hawaii.

777s and 747s are better for NRT, 767s for Hawaii. That frees up A330s for the EU to bring the 764s back to Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Shankly
Posted 2008-04-15 10:37:53 and read 24529 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 88):
They would be idiots to do this. Hubs make money. Hubs need a certain amount of critical mass to be really efficient. Consolidating to AMS or CDG would be in their best interest. Once they have done that, they can open a ton of smaller "finger routes" like ATL - CDG - AMS or ATL - LHR - CDG allowing them to compete with European carriers thanks to OpenSkies

AirFNT, going beyond these hubs into Europe would be akin to stepping up over a WW1 trench and facing several machine gun posts manned by Ryanair, Air Berlin, Easyjet, BA & KLM/AF...Open skies is no excuse to pour good money after bad

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bmacleod
Posted 2008-04-15 10:38:30 and read 24579 times.

Well finally the DC-9s are goners!!!

A330s are safe until the 787s arrive.

A320s - not sure what DL will do.

744s - are big money-makers on the Asian routes. Now down the road the 747-8I may catch DL's eye but I see them focusing on Boeing plans for Y1.

777LRs and 777ERs have solid footing in DL network and are safe.

MD-80/90s - gone after 2010.

738s - safe for now.

763ER/764ERs - safe until 787s arrive.

757s - another moneymaker for both NW and DL - safe.

The CRJs on both networks will be pared down.

[Edited 2008-04-15 10:40:18]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2008-04-15 10:40:02 and read 24723 times.

Came across an interesting proposal for a hybrid livery after the merger...



Modified Airliner Photos:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © Jennings Heilig
Template © Jennings Heilig




Won't happen of course but I thought I'd share this.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 10:40:46 and read 24508 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 92):
777s and 747s are better for NRT, 767s for Hawaii. That frees up A330s for the EU to bring the 764s back to Hawaii.

Please read my posts why I would disagree. As I have stated several times, none of Delta's transatlantic routes on 767-400ERs would benefit from the A330's range or cargo capacity. Perhaps ATL-HNL will remain a 767-400ER, and maybe MSP-HNL would get a 767-400ER as well, but not LAX-HNL or SLC-HNL. As Delta has learned in bankruptcy, the 767-400ER is overkill for domestic routes, and are better used on transatlantic routes. The NW 757-300s and Delta's domestic 767-300s fill in the gap for those routes very well, and Delta would not waste a 767-400ER for those routes. I also highly doubt that Delta would bring back back the 767-400ERs on Florida routes, as those routes are also low yield.

Delta CEO Richard Anderson stated that the combined Delta/Northwest mainline fleet will contain over 800 aircraft. Delta will place the right aircraft on the right route. Currently, Delta's fleet contains 451 mainline aircraft, and Northwest's fleet contains 343 mainline aircraft.

[Edited 2008-04-15 10:42:30]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2008-04-15 10:43:18 and read 24467 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 92):
Rechecking the NW 744 fleet, there are 10 that are 18-19 years old, and 6 that are 7-9 years old.

What that means to me is that the 6 newer ones can remain for quite a while, while the 20 year old ones (by 2010) can be replaced with 77Ws.

It is unlikely they would keep only 6 744s. Also, it is unlikely they will keep 744s just because of DTW-NRT.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-15 10:43:16 and read 24569 times.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 94):
Well finally the DC-9s are goners!!!

Nothing has killed them off yet!  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: IcelandairMSP
Posted 2008-04-15 10:43:29 and read 24497 times.

If Anderson says the 744s could be used on some of Delta's routes, where my they be pulled off of? All MSP-NRT, DTW-NRT, DTW-KIX, DTW-NGO do incredibly well. That's 12 of 16 right there.

I think LAX-NRT holds its own, I guess leaving the NRT-HNL but would it really be worth it to pull any of those out in the short term? I would think they need a few 777W or 748i before there can be a shuffle of aircraft.

And for the A330, they do well for the concentrated MSP/DTW-AMS flights, but are generally too large for anything else besides the LHR/FRA/CDG staples. Would DL concentrate any of its European flying from ATL and JFK into AMS or CDG? Or would former NW get a few more destinations from MSP/DTW with smaller aircraft?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 10:45:31 and read 24422 times.



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 95):
Came across an interesting proposal for a hybrid livery after the merger...

Pretty awesome tail! I would just want to bring the widget in so it isn't cut off (as i don't like that on the current DL scheme.)

As for the body, I think it's an interesting take, I like the style and size of the title, but something about repeating the circle/widget thing is not right.

Maybe just a larger, gradient widget with the big D of Delta overlapping.

But whoever did it, stay on that track! It's better than what either DL or NW have now. I hate the NW level line tail thing, where silver creeps up the tail. Looks amateur.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 10:48:15 and read 24306 times.

BTW, here is a list of Delta's transatlantic 767-400ER routes for this summer:

ATL-LGW
ATL-FRA
ATL-CDG
ATL-AMS
ATL-MUC
ATL-MXP
ATL-MAD
ATL-DUB
ATL-SVO
ATL-DKR-JNB

As I stated, none of these routes would really benefit from the A330's range or cargo capacity. The only possible exception is ATL-SVO.

[Edited 2008-04-15 10:48:36]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyDreamliner
Posted 2008-04-15 10:59:03 and read 24131 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):

As I stated, none of these routes would really benefit from the A330's range or cargo capacity. The only possible exception is ATL-SVO.

ATL-DKR-JNB could DEFINITELY benefit from A330's cargo capacity, as they've had to send the 777 there to pick up backlogged luggage.

DL could replace the 777 on TLV with an A330, and move the 777 elsewhere, where its range could be better used.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Haggis79
Posted 2008-04-15 11:00:58 and read 24055 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):
ATL-MUC

afaik this one is down to a 763ER for the summer....

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 11:04:33 and read 23988 times.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 102):
DL could replace the 777 on TLV with an A330, and move the 777 elsewhere, where its range could be better used.

I actually think that JFK-TLV is a good A330 route. The route can benefit from cargo. Also, many have complained about the lack of PTVs on that route as it is served by a 767-300ER. Put one of NW's A330s on the route and people will stop complaining.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: CV880
Posted 2008-04-15 11:09:13 and read 23886 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 96):
Perhaps ATL-HNL will remain a 767-400ER, and maybe MSP-HNL would get a 767-400ER as well, but not LAX-HNL or SLC-HNL

The remaining domestic 764's should be converted to international configuration, and a few 763-ER's returned to domestic long haul routes (ATL/JFK/DTW/MSP-Hawaii) in the new high density configuration (24F 238Y). Pax capacity would be very close to the current 764 capacity.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 11:16:24 and read 23742 times.



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 95):
Came across an interesting proposal for a hybrid livery after the merger...

I have a modified version of this, but not sure I can post it due to the copyright claims.

But I think I can, because I think the copyright claims on using someone else's trademark, someone else's product design, etc. are bogus to begin with. You can't modify DL's logo, draw it on a 738, and claim a copyright. It may be illegal to do so...

So, should I post the modified modified livery?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2008-04-15 11:20:23 and read 23661 times.



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):

Will they be replaced by 737s or A320s? Which fleet is smaller/closer to retirement out of NW's and DL's?

the A32S are older than DL's 737NGs.....But my guess is E90s or the new CRJ

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 8):
hmm... what may be interesting to see if they move SLC-CDG to a 332 (if that route stays, that is). I heard the 763ER might have problems with hot-and-high performance, whereas the 332 might be better off. Besides, the 332 is much more comfortable in Y (at least with the current interior of the respective aircrafts), so it might be better suited for an interhub route...?

Ok then what A332 routes get dropped?

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 17):

If Boeing offers Delta a really good Deal don't hope on the airbus staying to long(note i said a REALLY good deal) just like what happend at AC. Boeing will find homes for the airbus and keep an all Boeing airline an all Boeing airline.
(note I am NOT saying this will happen but i think it very well could)

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 26):
Let's not forget that ANOTHER livery will probably be developed at some point.

Don't count on it.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Surfrider1978
Posted 2008-04-15 11:20:34 and read 23755 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
I have a modified version of this, but not sure I can post it due to the copyright claims.

But I think I can, because I think the copyright claims on using someone else's trademark, someone else's product design, etc. are bogus to begin with. You can't modify DL's logo, draw it on a 738, and claim a copyright. It may be illegal to do so...

So, should I post the modified modified livery?

I think you will be fine  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2008-04-15 11:21:50 and read 23655 times.

remember when DL used to have 764 flights to LGA? I cannot believe they dont have them anymore to MCO.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: A342
Posted 2008-04-15 11:22:41 and read 23622 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):
As I stated, none of these routes would really benefit from the A330's range or cargo capacity.

Why should these routes NOT benefit from the A330's cargo capacity?

Also, a 764ER can't make MUC-ATL with a full belly, the A332 would be useful here.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):
ATL-SVO.

Indeed, that's where the A332 would bring the most benefit.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 11:27:36 and read 23637 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 110):
Why should these routes NOT benefit from the A330's cargo capacity?

If none of those routes benefitted, then the 767 would be selling well and the A330 wouldn't be. But you and I know that isn't the case.  Smile

One reason for putting the A330s into europe is to simplify operations. Fewer crew and maintenance issues when you always send A330s to the EU, always send 777s and 747s to NRT and Asia, always send 767s into South America, etc.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 11:31:40 and read 23447 times.

Quoting A342 (Reply 110):
Also, a 764ER can't make MUC-ATL with a full belly, the A332 would be useful here.

Do you have any data for this? I haven't heard anything about cargo issues with Delta's 767-400ERs. CO has been using their 767-400ERs on international routes from the start, and has never had such problems.

While the A330 can carry more cargo on such routes, the added cargo capacity will not be enough to offset the A330's higher fuel burn.

Remember, Delta learned in bankruptcy that using the 767-400ERs on domestic routes was a big mistake, and because of this, they are likely to remain on international routes. Delta does not want to repeat this fiasco all over again. Of course, ATL-HNL may remain on a 767-400ER as it is beyond the range of the 757-300 or non-ER 767-300. Things have changed since 9/11, and using the 767-400ER on West Coast/SLC-HNL routes or on ATL-Florida routes is overkill.

Also, remember that Delta stated that the 767-400ERs will be getting the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites. It doesn't make any sense to install them if they will be used on domestic routes.

[Edited 2008-04-15 11:48:25]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2008-04-15 11:55:14 and read 23246 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 111):
One reason for putting the A330s into europe is to simplify operations. Fewer crew and maintenance issues when you always send A330s to the EU, always send 777s and 747s to NRT and Asia, always send 767s into South America, etc.

WHY ? 767 & 777 have been widely used in Europe and are familiar to crews & mechanics at most European airports. 744 to Asia, only because that is where they make sense. JFK to LHR will need a larger bird when DL gets more slots at LHR & better departure times.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 12:06:36 and read 23056 times.

Also, if you split Northwest's A330 fleet between the A330-200 and A330-300, Northwest only operates 11 A330-200s vs Delta's 21 767-400ERs. The A330-300 would be a bit large for some of these routes, considering that Delta no longer flies 777s to Europe.

[Edited 2008-04-15 12:07:46]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-04-15 12:09:44 and read 22995 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 114):
The A330-300 would be a bit large for some of these routes, considering that Delta no longer flies 777s to Europe.

But the A330-300 is likely more efficient on ex-ATL/JFK TATL missions then a 772/77E so that might support higher traffic even with lower fares.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2008-04-15 12:12:39 and read 22905 times.



Quoting Shankly (Reply 93):

AirFNT, going beyond these hubs into Europe would be akin to stepping up over a WW1 trench and facing several machine gun posts manned by Ryanair, Air Berlin, Easyjet, BA & KLM/AF...Open skies is no excuse to pour good money after bad

In the famous WW1 line - "The Americans are coming." In fact, I would say that the biggest looser in all of these mergers are the European and Asian carriers who have taken advantage of the huge number of American carriers.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 12:14:01 and read 22845 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 115):
But the A330-300 is likely more efficient on ex-ATL/JFK TATL missions then a 772/77E so that might support higher traffic even with lower fares.

Still, the 767-400ER has lower fuel burn on these routes. I don't see why would any of these routes warrant a larger aircraft.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 12:15:31 and read 22839 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 88):
But remember that NW already broke with Airbus on the 787.

I don´t think they brought with Airbus, they choose the better aircraft at that time, also Airbus could not guarantee them a common type rating with their A330s. NW always choose the best aircraft for their requirements and didn´t have any preferences on any manufacturer be it Boeing, Douglas/MD, Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 94):
Well finally the DC-9s are goners!!!

What is so good about this means, it only means a classic less and more boring EJets/737/A320s.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 12:19:50 and read 22866 times.

It's still not what I was thinking, but it's a stab at altering the concept.
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4363/dlnwschemetu3.jpg

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 114):
The A330-300 would be a bit large for some of these routes, considering that Delta no longer flies 777s to Europe.

We are now talking about the largest airline in the world, not DL or NW individually. The new DL will funnel more connections through certain airports, thus increasing the size of the aircraft.

The A333 would also suit LHR ops well.

And the 777s aren't going to the EU for DL because they had only 8 of them and opened longer routes. Which is still why the 777s wouldn't go to the EU. They are needed for the longest routes.

Some of the 767s are getting OLD. Not all of them can remain forever.

DL and NW will also be consolidated on Hawaii routes, so putting the 764 there in place of 763 and 753s would improve yields.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: A342
Posted 2008-04-15 12:22:22 and read 22697 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 112):
Do you have any data for this? I haven't heard anything about cargo issues with Delta's 767-400ERs. CO has been using their 767-400ERs on international routes from the start, and has never had such problems.

While the A330 can carry more cargo on such routes, the added cargo capacity will not be enough to offset the A330's higher fuel burn.

It is not a real problem, but as you say, it means you can carry less cargo. Cargo is VERY important nowadays.

Also, the airlines have voted with their feet; the vast majority considers the A330's added revenue potential to be worth the extra fuel burn (which isn't that big).

The data you might be interested in is on page 11 of the following Boeing document:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/767sec3.pdf

You can see that the 764ER's range with maximum payload is about 3700nm. MUC-ATL is 4168nm. Add the headwinds on the westbound leg, the new sleeper suites (which aren't light) and you can clearly see that it faces restrictions in terms of cargo payload.

On a second thought, while SVO-ATL is 4675nm, but the situation is a bit different. There is basically no cargo out of Moscow, thus the headwinds on the westbound sector aren't that important. With the tailwinds on the eastbound leg, a decent payload should be possible.


Payload-range charts for the A330 can be found in this document, pages 52-57:

http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...a/docs/AC/DATA_CONSULT/AC_A330.pdf

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 12:23:14 and read 22689 times.

Why do people even think Delta will bring the 767-400ERs back to domestic routes? The non-ER 767-300s and the 757-300s cover this void in well. There is no need for any additional domestic capacity. Delta even said in a video that the 767-400ERs were not designed for ATL-Florida ops. The big money maker is the international routes. And since Delta CEO Richard Anderson said that the combined mainline fleet will feature over 800 aircraft, don't expect the 767-400ERs to be sold off or scrapped.

Also, remember that the 767-400ERs are slated to get the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites. It doesn't make any sense to install them if they will be used on domestic routes.

[Edited 2008-04-15 12:24:39]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-15 12:26:52 and read 22683 times.

I'm pretty sure the A330 vs B764ER argument is the least of DL/NW's worry after the merger.  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 12:29:07 and read 22575 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 111):
One reason for putting the A330s into europe is to simplify operations. Fewer crew and maintenance issues when you always send A330s to the EU, always send 777s and 747s to NRT and Asia, always send 767s into South America, etc.

For DL longhaul fleet I guess it will come out like this:

767-300ER and the A330-300 will be the backbone of the transatlantic fleet together with some 757s for routes that don´t need that much capacity.
Not sure about what they will do with the 767-400ER, maybe it will be used on their South America routes.
A330-200, 777 and 747 will be used on transpacific routes, older 747s will be converted to freighters as the 777 will take over on some routes.

767 and A330 will be replaced with the 787 at a later date.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 12:33:03 and read 22507 times.

Why are so many users here trying to defend the A330? There is a huge difference in capacity between the 767-300ER and the A330-300, and that intermediate area is best filled in with the 767-400ER. The A330-200 fleet is too small to entirely replace the 767-400ER fleet.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: IAD787
Posted 2008-04-15 12:35:37 and read 22505 times.

These are two collosally incompatible fleets at the mainline level.

Take a look at both fleets together. I put this together last night for the blog and it is to scale. The reason you don't see the Delta regionals is because what is pictured here are the aircraft that Northwest and Delta own outright on passenger service:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...r/2008/04/delta-and-northwest.html

Enjoy!

Onward,

IAD787

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WingnutMN
Posted 2008-04-15 12:42:25 and read 22323 times.

How can a 220 seat 787 replace a 298 seat A333? On some routes, where it would be a 243 seat A332 you may get away with a sub like that, but never on the bigger! If you think that they can just bump the order to 789s, then the early slots are wasted. There is no way that you can replace all of the 330s. NW chose the 330s over the 777 due to economics across the atlantic. Also, I keep reading about keeping the 763s, why? if DL takes out the options for 50 787s, I see the breakdown like this, 20 more 788s and 30 789s. ALL will be used to replace 763s.

The next route announced will be SYD from LAX with the 77L. NW has a fair amount of feed to LAX from both MSP and DTW, and DL holds its own in there!

WingnutMN

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 12:44:21 and read 22281 times.

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
How can a 220 seat 787 replace a 298 seat A333? On some routes, where it would be a 243 seat A332 you may get away with a sub like that, but never on the bigger! If you think that they can just bump the order to 789s, then the early slots are wasted. There is no way that you can replace all of the 330s. NW chose the 330s over the 777 due to economics across the atlantic. Also, I keep reading about keeping the 763s, why? if DL takes out the options for 50 787s, I see the breakdown like this, 20 more 788s and 30 789s. ALL will be used to replace 763s.

Actually, I would somewhat agree with you. The older 767-300ERs are more likely to be retired before the 767-400ERs. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the 767-400ERs are the last 767s to be retired. They are the newest 767s in Delta's fleet. What many users here fail to understand is why Delta won't bring them back on domestic routes. The big money is in international routes. There is no need for any additional domestic capacity; the non-ER 767-300s and 757-300s fufill that niche. They will be getting Thompson sleeper suites, which makes it pretty obvious that they will remain on international routes well into the future.

[Edited 2008-04-15 12:47:43]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-04-15 12:58:59 and read 22047 times.



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
The next route announced will be SYD from LAX with the 77L. NW has a fair amount of feed to LAX from both MSP and DTW, and DL holds its own in there!

possible but without a partner in Oz to connect to MEL and BNE, it will be tough

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 13:11:29 and read 21883 times.

I have a feeling the Airbus aircraft will go. The 744s will follow. The MD80s will be replaced with more 73NG's and more 777LR's will update the long haul fleet.
A merger can mean many things people but I've got a feeling Delta will dump most of NW's fleet except for their 757s. They will also sell the Cargo division to Fedex/Polar etc most likely.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WingnutMN
Posted 2008-04-15 13:21:50 and read 21735 times.

NW cargo isn't worth what it use to be. No DHL contract means that they don't have enough demand for the current aircraft they have. Why would FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc. want to buy something that isn't making much if any money right now? Also throw into that the fact that NW, not NW cargo has the rights to China, and you soon have a cargo entity with 25-30 yr old planes and not much of an ability to make money.

They either need to update the planes and find a sweet deal with another cargo outfit, or just close up shop and write off any losses.

WingnutMN

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2008-04-15 13:21:54 and read 21712 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 49):
Does anyone know when DL will announce the livery?



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 64):
I could see that. Dl/NW will need cash to pay for this monster

It was an all stock deal with zero cash.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 88):
Consolidating to AMS or CDG would be in their best interest. Once they have done that, they can open a ton of smaller "finger routes" like ATL - CDG - AMS or ATL - LHR - CDG allowing them to compete with European carriers thanks to OpenSkies.

No US carrier will fly "finger " routes in Europe, as their Europpen partners AF/KL can do it better.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 13:22:49 and read 21705 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 129):
They will also sell the Cargo division to Fedex/Polar etc most likely.

I'm not sure about that. It seems that Delta has discovered that cargo can be a money maker and having a ready made cargo operation (especially to and from Asia) is a bonus.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Humberside
Posted 2008-04-15 13:23:45 and read 21716 times.



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 66):
ATL-MEM
ATL-DTW
ATL-MSP
CVG-DTW
CVG-MSP
SLC-MSP
SLC-DTW
JFK-DTW
JFK-MSP
LAX-HNL
LAX-LAS

ANy idea what the 12th would be?

SFO-HNL?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 13:28:29 and read 21638 times.

Why is everyone forgetting that NW already has existing traffic? (well not everyone, but a lot of people). The 753s can't "cover" the domestic for DL routes because they are already covering the NW routes. They can be shifted around to DL routes, but then a DL aircraft needs to replace it.

It's not like DL just won the lottery and got a whole bunch of new 753s and A330s. They have two fleets to cover the routes of the #3 and #5 airline to become the #1 airline. That means readjusting things over the long term.

That's why I expect the 764s to return home in the future, because if you are going to move the 753s around.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 121):
The non-ER 767-300s and the 757-300s cover this void in well.

The non-ER 763s are old and will not be around forever. I am talking about the future, and 764s were made to cover the entire USA, from NYC to HNL, and they will end up doing this IMHO. They were put onto the EU routes because DL was desperately short of aircraft. Once the 777s come in, and MORE 777s arrive + more A332s (maybe 5 or so), that will allow the 764s to return to domestic use to replace the 763s.

Quoting Columba (Reply 123):
767-300ER and the A330-300 will be the backbone of the transatlantic fleet together with some 757s for routes that don´t need that much capacity.

NW bought the A330 for TATL. Go back to the PR from 2001 and see. I did. That they are on Asia now is because they needed to replace the 742s and didn't have 777s to do it.

With DL and NW combined, things can be readjusted. The A330s can be returned to their primary role as TATL aircraft, from the east, midwest, south and west, without range issues. The larger planes can go into LHR and the SkyTeam hubs, the A332s into other major destinations.

DL can simplify things by dedicating the Pratt 763ERs to international use and the GE 763ERs and 764ERs to domestic use. That would create an entire Pratt TATL fleet even if they kept on a limited number of 752s.

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
How can a 220 seat 787 replace a 298 seat A333?

Because we are talking about a 2-class 250 seat 788 replacing an A332 and a 290 seat 2-class 787-9 replacing an A333.

Not that I think the A330s are going anywhere any time soon, but that's how it would happen, if it were to happen. In the long run.

But I'd expect A330s to remain with DL for another 15 years, and they may even buy more (like I suggested, 5 more A332s).

One reason I think DL will order more 777s and A330s is availability. They could start receiving them in 2010, right when they will start needing them for replacement. They will be able to retire non-ER 763s at that point and the oldest 744s and shift their fleet around as above. The 787s won't start coming in until 2010 either, but will be used for expansion. They will go on long range routes that bypass NRT. They will open up Africa and non-stop China routes.

That's how I, a nobody, see the future. 777s and A330s for fleet renewal, 787s for route expansion.

In narrowbody terms, 738s and A319s to replace MD80s and older A320s, E195 or MRJ to replace DC9s. 757s hang on as long as possible, though 738s would also replace some of the oldest.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Hjulicher
Posted 2008-04-15 13:34:36 and read 21513 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 53):
DL and NW execs both said that there is great opportunity to use NW’s larger widebodies on DL’s ATL int’l routes while DL’s smaller int’l a/c (767s) will move to DTW and MSP. Also, the DC9s will be used in ATL (there are NOT going anywhere).

I've restrained myself from posting because of the merger, but this was exactly what i was afraid will happen. To me, NW has a really good TATL product, and has some valuable assets. I firmly believe that NW, has one of the best management teams, and that their business plan was very sound. DTW/MSP/MEM all see A330 service to Europe. If DL were to arrive with crappy 763's to replace NW nice assets and give passengers an old plane to fly to Europe, I personally will stop flying them. I'm not against mergers, but I'm against corporations basically taking all the strong assets from one, and using them for themselves. I agree that the 787's should be used to replace the ageing 763 fleet. I understand the importance of expansion, but at the moment, this merger has the Europe and Asia covered, so no additional flying will be necessary. In fact, it should stay the same, but NW and DL should focus on improving their quality standards (something DL could learn from NW). At the same time, I'm will be happy to see DL improve NW's domestic operations. If they want to be "america's premier airline" emphasis on premier, then they will have to really focus on upgrading the current fleet. Only recent deliveries really offer acceptable levels of service (aka. 333/332/777).

Also, won't it be difficult to operate maintenance basis for these aircraft at NW and DL hubs. 767's have no maintenance in services in DTW, and ATL doesn't have 330. In order to shift the fleet around, I would imagine you would need to have maintenance bases. Take an example like DUS. Hypothetically: if DL were to fly to DUS with a 333, and NW with a 75A, how would the 333 receive it's maintenance. You can't perform a W type scheduling since the plane never has an opportunity to fly to DTW unless that same planes flies to CDG or AMS.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2008-04-15 13:43:44 and read 21461 times.

I was saying to my self, when the E-190 was going to join the DL fleet, as it seems like it would be a good fit according to the post above.

As much as I luv the colors on the NWA A330's I am curious as to when the first ones hit the paint shop though, Will DL repaint the airbus planes too IF AND ONLY IF they stay?

As to the DC-9 lovers, well my artwork looks like the only time you will see the new colors on the DC-9  Sad

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-04-15 13:44:30 and read 21441 times.

If CVG and MEM both disappear as hubs, will CVG and MEM-PIT still remain or would NW/DL drop those routes? I think I asked this in another thread, so forgive me, but if these routes do disappear, would traffic through DTW or ATL increase to handle whatever O&D traffic to CVG and/or MEM? I guess if there is such an increase, it would only be a CRJ or two to either DTW, ATL, or both...

I figured I'd post that here since it's the fleets and routes discussion of NW/DL  Smile

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 13:47:37 and read 21338 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
The non-ER 763s are old and will not be around forever. I am talking about the future, and 764s were made to cover the entire USA, from NYC to HNL, and they will end up doing this IMHO. They were put onto the EU routes because DL was desperately short of aircraft. Once the 777s come in, and MORE 777s arrive + more A332s (maybe 5 or so), that will allow the 764s to return to domestic use to replace the 763s.

I see your point, but I would think that Delta would instead convert some 767-300ERs to domestic use to replace the non-ER 767-300s. Also, the fact that Delta just begun installing PTVs on the non-ER 767-300s is pretty indicative that they will be operating for years to come. Once the 787s are delivered, Delta will most likely convert some of the 767-300ERs to domestic to replace the non-ER 767-300s.

Also, NW doesn't have any more A330s on order, and I don't think that Delta would purchase more 777-200LRs to fly them to Europe.

[Edited 2008-04-15 14:03:23]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: CV880
Posted 2008-04-15 14:05:09 and read 21062 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 138):
I see your point, but I would think that Delta would instead convert some 767-300ERs to domestic use to replace the non-ER 767-300s.

As I said in reply #105.....plus the fact the the 764 has too many quirks in weight/balance for fully loaded longhaul traffic, and that the 763ER in a domestic configuration can haul almost as many pax as a 764. The 763ER was used for a time between ATL-OGG-ATL, whereas a 764 would be penalized due to the short runway at OGG. The 763ER may have a penalty depending upon takeoff weight, but to a lesser degree.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2008-04-15 14:06:16 and read 21056 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 124):
Why are so many users here trying to defend the A330? There is a huge difference in capacity between the 767-300ER and the A330-300, and that intermediate area is best filled in with the 767-400ER. The A330-200 fleet is too small to entirely replace the 767-400ER fleet.

Don't worry the 764s won't go anywhere. They will stay just where they are. The A332s will stay just where they are. Anet forget is you take a plane like the A332 off of a route it must be replace. Replacements DL doesn't have.

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
How can a 220 seat 787 replace a 298 seat A333? On some routes, where it would be a 243 seat A332 you may get away with a sub like that, but never on the bigger! If you think that they can just bump the order to 789s, then the early slots are wasted. There is no way that you can replace all of the 330s. NW chose the 330s over the 777 due to economics across the atlantic. Also, I keep reading about keeping the 763s, why? if DL takes out the options for 50 787s, I see the breakdown like this, 20 more 788s and 30 789s. ALL will be used to replace 763s.

Why add new seat to the 763s just to scrap them? winglets? because a.net thinks there old? No DL has said they will hang on to the 763s for a while and that is with or with out NW.

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
The next route announced will be SYD from LAX with the 77L. NW has a fair amount of feed to LAX from both MSP and DTW, and DL holds its own in there!

and then they shall get raped by QF and UA. If it is added right now it will be via NRT or from DTW or ATL. (and if they can get the range JFK)

Quoting Humberside (Reply 133):
SFO-HNL?

only a summer flight.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2008-04-15 14:11:52 and read 20966 times.



Quoting IAD787 (Reply 125):
These are two collosally incompatible fleets at the mainline level.

Take a look at both fleets together. I put this together last night for the blog and it is to scale. The reason you don't see the Delta regionals is because what is pictured here are the aircraft that Northwest and Delta own outright on passenger service:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl....html

That is one spectacularly diversified fleet! It's not easy to make quick 'cuts' either, as there aren't many subfleets small enough to axe (the RR 77Es are a bit of an orphan fleet, I'm sure the likes of BA would be happy to take them of DL's back!). I would assume that the A320 and 737NG fleets will stay intact, after all AF/KL are happy to operate (and reorder) both, and there are (far) older narrowbodies to dispose of first. If the emphasis is on international routes, then more A330s in the short term makes a lot of sense. NW's 787 order is a big bonus...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: KochamLOT
Posted 2008-04-15 14:34:19 and read 20700 times.



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 41):
I'm pretty sure that NW chose the 330s over the 777s because of better economics across the atlantic

I agree! Althogh Im born american and love boeing, the economics for transatlantic flights seems the best from the a330-300 especially. The 777s for transpacific and a330s for transatlantic would make sense....and further down the line, 787s on ultra long range routes with less passengers to fly.

Comparing the NWA scheme with Deltas aircraft color scheme, it IS sad. the NWA scheme is elegant, sporty, just beautiful. Deltas scheme by comparison is much too boring. although the font of DELTA is all bussiness which I like, the color scheme is WAY too bland for americas premier airline. Im sure as the important things get settled, we will see a new color scheme - I REAALLY HOPE.

Also, it would be awesome to see the new DELTA to order a new flagship aircraft - like 747-800.
I cant wait to see this all unfold!

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-15 14:35:31 and read 20698 times.



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 141):
the RR 77Es are a bit of an orphan fleet, I'm sure the likes of BA would be happy to take them of DL's back!.

Those 77Es are going nowhere.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 141):
If the emphasis is on international routes, then more A330s in the short term makes a lot of sense.

I'm pretty sure there won't be much expansion in the near term. You'll see routes that both serve being consolidated and that will free up aircraft. Stranger things have happened, but I just don't see A330s being ordered by this airline anytime soon.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: IronDuke08
Posted 2008-04-15 14:39:05 and read 20628 times.



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 141):
That is one spectacularly diversified fleet! It's not easy to make quick 'cuts' either, as there aren't many subfleets small enough to axe (the RR 77Es are a bit of an orphan fleet, I'm sure the likes of BA would be happy to take them of DL's back!). I would assume that the A320 and 737NG fleets will stay intact, after all AF/KL are happy to operate (and reorder) both, and there are (far) older narrowbodies to dispose of first. If the emphasis is on international routes, then more A330s in the short term makes a lot of sense. NW's 787 order is a big bonus...

That's what I was thinking. The real question is going to be how effectively the combined entity can actually redeploy aircraft on routes. I know everyone here keeps talking about A330s on __-ATL route, etc. but this is all assuming that the NW pilots decide to take their medicine.

Otherwise, as many have said, you'll end up with the seamless harmony that is US Airways. They had fleets that matched perfectly, but as far as I know, US pilots are still flying old US routes and AW Pilots are flying AW routes. Synergy.

On a going-forward basis in terms of orders, I'd think that you'll see mostly (if not all) orders going to Boeing, simply because they are one of the current DL's major creditors, if I recall correctly. (This might not be the case.)

I think the Airbus aircraft will be with DL for a long time to come, and most will exit when replaced by Y3/A320RS orders.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 14:48:18 and read 20476 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 132):
I'm not sure about that. It seems that Delta has discovered that cargo can be a money maker and having a ready made cargo operation (especially to and from Asia) is a bonus

Using what aircraft? They certainly won't keep any 747s let alone the 747-200F. The only cargo will be limited to certain belly space in the 777LR's. That's a far cry from dedicated widebodied freighters which NW has had since the mid 70s.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2008-04-15 14:51:00 and read 20415 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
It's not like DL just won the lottery and got a whole bunch of new 753s and A330s. They have two fleets to cover the routes of the #3 and #5 airline to become the #1 airline. That means readjusting things over the long term.

This assumes that there would be no capacity adjustment. The problem is there has to be in order to justify the merger. Some routes, especially those that are duplicates, will see substantial adjustment downwards.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
That's why I expect the 764s to return home in the future, because if you are going to move the 753s around.

The beauty of the combined fleet is that it offers, with no real cost disadvantage a wide range of capacity/fuelburn/range capabilities. Let us look at the international fleet.

B752 – Both airlines, find the right niche here and all is good. DL could put the smack-down on the NE to CDG/AMS where they have ample flight growth ops, and do pleanty of JFK/BOS to Europe with the left-overs. The merger may make BOS international ops a much better idea.

B763ER – While I do expect this fleet to shrink slowly over time primarily by moving some aircraft to domestic routes it still provides a niche that no other aircraft in the fleet can. If the market is too large or too long for a B752 this is the aircraft to use. The real debate is does the additions of the A332 change the longest range flight equation. If so with the addition of winglets I would think the the weight of the AVOD IFE becomes much less of an issue.

B764ER – Where the combination of range and demand from a payload point of view are right, i.e. into CDG/AMS/LHR there is no better aircraft to operate from a revenue cost point of view. People are absolutely correct that on longer range missions the payload capability of the A332 makes it a better choice. You will see a realignment of the routes each is used on. Keep in mind TPAC will get the A332s first. This is a subfleet of the B767 fleet so the additional costs are minimal. If the payload demands something larger on TATL the best choice is to move up to an A333. Of course the A333 falls into the same book on longer ranges so think of it as a ratio. You will only see these on domestic routes if they can make more money than they would on an avail international route. The international routes are still relatively closed markets so there is much more leverage to achieve above marginal revenues.

A332 – Another subfleet, it is the longer range compliment to the B764ER. If more money can be made where the B764 starts to leave cargo behind and the 11 A332s are not spoken for making more money somewhere else they will swap out. Inside of about ~4000 nm the cargo capability of the B764 and A332 are fairly well matched.

A333 – The TATL higher capacity aircraft, there are just as many of them as B764s so you will see these swap based on project pax and cargo demand. This save the B777s for where they are better suited and the extra weight can be put to good use.

B772s – In either combination they provide a capability that none of the other aircraft have, outside of the B744 they have unmatched payload-range capability, and the B77Ls have gobs of range. They will be Pacific Asia planes.

B744s – Payload beasts and will be used where appropriate.

The thing is that neither airline currently has all of their routes perfectly matched. However, each of the fleets, save the B777 and B744 are about the size that justifies them straight away, i.e. no real savings from commonality if you eliminate them. What you do instead is be very aggressive about moving capacity around the system. Swapping B77Es and A332s, B764s and A333s where capacity demands it, and B764s v A332s where payload-range demands it.

There will probably not be any large orders for new aircraft. I think DL will still look to pick up used RR powered B77Es if the price is right. I would also think that low time B763ERs are also on the table. As for new orders I would not expect any large new aircraft orders. If the price is right you could see single digit adds to the B764 or A330 fleets. The only area where there is probably going to be real movement is the B777. I don't see any reason why they would back away from more B77Ls. The real question is whether or not replacing the B744s with B77Ws makes sense. It would increase fleet commonality at the expense of a small top-end payload capability.

As for the "gentleman's agreement" with Boeing. Unless something changed during the Ch 11 proceedings, DL still has the power to legally enforce it. Only Boeing gave up their end by agreeing with the EU not to enforce it as part of their merger concessions. That being said DL will only enforce it if it makes sense to do so.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 102):
ATL-DKR-JNB could DEFINITELY benefit from A330's cargo capacity, as they've had to send the 777 there to pick up backlogged luggage.

Do you have a reference for this? Even so, the switch would be a B764 to and A332 unless demand was such that moving up to the A333 makes sense, then you would be back in the same situation. Also there are some potential benefits to keeping the route all B767 in terms of the DKR station. These may be outweighed by revenue potential though.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
They were put onto the EU routes because DL was desperately short of aircraft.

As I stated above they were put on the international routes because they could make more money there. Nothing I have seen so far indicates that this has changed wholesale. If anything it is only the best set of international routes that may have changed. These aircraft will show-up on the routes that give the best ROI. In general I expect that the new DL will be very aggressive on parking any aircraft for which that is a better option than flying.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 14:54:44 and read 20402 times.

There's no chance that DA is keeping any Airbus/747 aircraft after the merger. Within 2 years of the final merger all A320/19/330 and 744/742 will off to a second hand sale lot.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Reltney
Posted 2008-04-15 14:58:18 and read 20309 times.



Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Ok. Let's start all over again after this technical hiccup

-----------------------------------

We have a loyal Boeing customer merging with one of Airbus' best US customers. Which way will this go?

If Delta's management dominates, they may well stick to the gentlemen's agreement with Boeing and order Boeing only going forward. The legacy Airbus fleet could then gradually disappear.

If NWA's management is influential, the door may remain open for Airbus.

Or, perhaps, given that Boeing no longer is as dominant in aircraft manufacturing as at the time when Delta opted for an all-Boeing fleet and that Boeing no longer offers a full range of state-of-the-art products, Delta managers may decide that this is as good an opportunity as any to get out of the understandings with Boeing.

Any thoughts?

This is easy.. Boeing financed the buy out (I know you read merger with the press but as you airline employees know, the press is always wrong and miss informed) Airbusses are history..

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 14:59:29 and read 20296 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 147):
There's no chance that DA is keeping any Airbus/747 aircraft after the merger. Within 2 years of the final merger all A320/19/330 and 744/742 will off to a second hand sale lot.

And replaced with what? How soon do those 787's come on line? Certainly more than two years at the rate that Boeing is going. I agree that the Airbus/747 will be parked, eventually but for the time being, they make a good, interim addition to the fleet, especially with the international expansion. Gives DL more flexibility in scheduling and enables them to put the right sized a/c on the right routes.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: TN757Flyer
Posted 2008-04-15 15:07:47 and read 20206 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 147):
There's no chance that DA is keeping any Airbus/747 aircraft after the merger. Within 2 years of the final merger all A320/19/330 and 744/742 will off to a second hand sale lot.

What exactly, within a span of 2 years, do you expect them to replace all these a/c with? It's not like they are going to go out on a buying spree the minute the ink is dry on the merger deal. Yes certain a/c will be phased out, but it will be done as capacity is shifted or dropped. As to whether we see and DC9's in the DL livery, who knows, but an airline this large will have to fly a very mixed bag of a/c at least for 4-5 years until a standardized fleet is decided upon and those aircraft come online. Closing a couple hubs and focus cities (yes, it will happen) will accelerate this, but it's not going to happen over night. We will see an odd mix of aircraft in DL's fleet for quite a while.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 15:12:43 and read 20135 times.



Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 152):
What exactly, within a span of 2 years, do you expect them to replace all these a/c with?

MD-80s will stay. More 737-800s will be added. If I were a NW Airbus pilot/747 pilot I'd be looking for a new job soon or hopefully hold out that DA might, just might retrain you for an aircraft DA currently operates. Don't hold your breath though.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 15:18:30 and read 20030 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 153):

All your replies about this seem a little bitter towards Delta. Did something like this happen to you?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NYCAA
Posted 2008-04-15 15:20:21 and read 20002 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 153):
MD-80s will stay. More 737-800s will be added. If I were a NW Airbus pilot/747 pilot I'd be looking for a new job soon or hopefully hold out that DA might, just might retrain you for an aircraft DA currently operates. Don't hold your breath though.

Hopefully hold out that DL might just retrain you? That is not how it works. If and when a seniority agreement is reached, its all about seniority. If DL gets rid of a fleet type, i.e. the DC-9, based on your seniority you will bid for another equipment type. At this point the only thing for sure is that the DC-9 wont be around that much longer. As for the Airbus or 747, even if they were to remove them from the operation, they would have to be replaced by something and pilots would be needed for those aircraft.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Flavio340
Posted 2008-04-15 15:25:47 and read 19951 times.

What is the status of the five additional MD-90's joining the fleet?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 15:30:48 and read 19887 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 154):
All your replies about this seem a little bitter towards Delta. Did something like this happen to you?

No I'm not bitter towards Delta although I know some PA crews were after their merger with Delta. Airline mergers have a way of making one side look down at the other. To a DA pilot a NW pilot will be the outsider.

Quoting NYCAA (Reply 155):
you will bid for another equipment type

If there are slots available. Retraining them on new types will be on DA's dime I would imagine. Those NW pilots who flew the MD-80s years ago will be lucky. All they'll need is a refresher course.

Quoting NYCAA (Reply 155):
As for the Airbus or 747, even if they were to remove them from the operation, they would have to be replaced by something and pilots would be needed for those aircraft.

As long as that something is Boeing. Whatever the case you'll have a surplus of pilots and I'd hate to a NW one.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-15 15:33:26 and read 19846 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 157):
To a DA pilot a NW pilot will be the outsider.

Trust me, they look down on us, too.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 15:43:09 and read 19802 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 138):
I see your point, but I would think that Delta would instead convert some 767-300ERs to domestic use to replace the non-ER 767-300s. Also, the fact that Delta just begun installing PTVs on the non-ER 767-300s is pretty indicative that they will be operating for years to come.

What an airline does before it announces a merger has little bearing on what it does 2 years after a merger.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 138):
Also, NW doesn't have any more A330s on order, and I don't think that Delta would purchase more 777-200LRs to fly them to Europe.

Nor would I think they would.

I said they will order more A330s if needed, specifically for EU flights.

The A333s would be used as the higher capacity TATL aircraft. 777s would stay out of the EU.

Basically, the A330s would be on the highest capacity routes to the EU (and to Latin America), with the international 763ERs being on the lower capacity routes there. The rest of the 763s would return to the USA as would the 764s. I suggested all the GE birds would turn domestic for simplicity, but I don't know from that, honestly. Just sounds nice.

All new 777s would be used for NON-EU/non-latam flights. I expect they would buy 77Ws in the future. In fact, I would imagine they have ordered their last 77L already, and they will order nothing but 77Ws from now on, even converting some 77L orders already on the books depending on how things shake out. I would expect them to order 77Ws instead of considering the A350, as they already have 787s on order, so the only A350 they would really need would be the A350-1000, which is available 2016 at the earliest.

A333s: very high capacity EU and Latam routes (LHR, CDG, AMS, GRU, etc.)
A332s: high capacity EU and Latam routes + TLV.
763ERs: medium capacity EU and Latam routes.
752 (intl): fringe EU routes from JFK and DTW.
763ERs: high capacity domestic routes replacing 763s.
764ERs: high capacity domestic routes including Hawaii.
753s and 752s: medium capacity domestic routes and NRT connections into Asia.
77E/Ls: Africa and Asia non-stops, plus South Pacific...  Wink
744s: NRT from USA and Hawaii, some to be replaced by 77W
787-8/9: new medium capacity non-EU international non-stops, and take over Africa from 77L.

This would mean the 777s would become the "Pacific Fleet", the A330s the "Atlantic Fleet" and 787s the "Africa/New Route" fleet, with 763s filling in gaps within range.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 15:47:16 and read 19673 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 159):
This would mean the 777s would become the "Pacific Fleet", the A330s the "Atlantic Fleet" and 787s the "Africa/New Route" fleet, with 763s filling in gaps within range.

Sounds like a maintenance nightmare.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NYCAA
Posted 2008-04-15 15:50:26 and read 19626 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 157):
If there are slots available. Retraining them on new types will be on DA's dime I would imagine. Those NW pilots who flew the MD-80s years ago will be lucky. All they'll need is a refresher course.

How will a NW pilot who flew the 80 years ago be lucky? and what is a refresher course? If the DC-9 is grounded, the current cockpit crews flying that a/c type will be retrained on another a/c based on seniority. It's all about seniority whether you fly the left seat or right seat. A 15 yr captain on the DC-9 will not be furloughed while a new hire pilot is flying on another equipment type. This is why the seniority list is so important to this employee group.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FX1816
Posted 2008-04-15 15:53:22 and read 19639 times.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 64):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
On CNBC this morning Richie and Dougie mentioned there is overlapping on only 12 routes

That is a garbage point. They compoete in 100s of citypairs

I don't think that you understand what was meant by 12 city pairs, these are routes such as MSP-ATL or ATL-MEM that both share. Yes they fly to many cities together but they do not compete on routes out of those cities.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
Why is everyone forgetting that NW already has existing traffic? (well not everyone, but a lot of people). The 753s can't "cover" the domestic for DL routes because they are already covering the NW routes. They can be shifted around to DL routes, but then a DL aircraft needs to replace it.

It's not like DL just won the lottery and got a whole bunch of new 753s and A330s. They have two fleets to cover the routes of the #3 and #5 airline to become the #1 airline. That means readjusting things over the long term.

That's why I expect the 764s to return home in the future, because if you are going to move the 753s around.

 Smile Amen to that, I don't really think people do realize that because DL and NW are so polar opposite of each other that they do need to utilize ALL of the aircraft they still have.

Regarding the fleet, yes I do believe that the DC-9's will be gone but it will still be at least 2-3 years before they disappear because they still need to cover the routes they cover now. That is why this merger may not actually be completed for a few years because management and the engineers need to really sit down and look at what routes are viable and which are not. Another thing is that this was NOT a buy out merger in that DL was doing this to "knock off a competitor" they were doing this to GROW! Yes eventually the fleet will settle down but until then, I would suspect there to be at least a good 5 + years before the fleet stabilizes and even then it will still look like an odd ball fleet. Whether it is the MD-80/90's, DC-9's or the the Airbuses, in particular the A32X fleet then, it would take years and I mean YEARS to replace the large amount of any of those aircraft. You can't just dump over 100 MD-80/90's or over 100 A32X's and expect to pick up the slack.

The other interesting point some on here make is WHEN will the new DL livery be introduced?? I don't believe it will at all. One thing no one seems to mention is that the widget, all RED, on the tail is already pointed in the North West direction, was this coincidence, I have no idea. Also what was it about 2 months or so ago DL also just changed their safety video?? Look I just like everyone else on here really has NO IDEA what will happen with the "new" DL but what ever it is I hope them the best as I do have relatives working for DL and DL has always been my choice of carrier to fly.

Lastly this is how I see the fleet as of 04/15/2013:

DC-9's Gone
MD-88's Decreasing as leases come up they may not be renewed and/or heavy maintenance.
MD-90's Still going strong as they are an awesome A/C out of SLC to the west coast.
73G's Increasing as they will be very productive on the South American routes.
738's Will increase to make up for the MD-88's whose leases are not renewed.
752's Older ones will begin to be sold off, FX??? I know they are PW and not RR powered but I don't think FX will care.
753's Kept as they are young and like the MD-90's fill a niche by being utilized to Florida and possibly Hawaii
763's The non-ER will be used on domestic runs with the oldest being phased out.
763ER's will be kept as they are still a good A/C but the oldest ones will be phased out for the 787.
772ER/LR These will be kept and the fleet will increase.
744's will all be gone and or converted to Freighters. I know some say they need to be kept for the Asian routes but hey NK is phasing them all out in favor of the 777.
A32X these will be kept as other's have said, the older A320's will be phased out but the newer A320's and A319's will be kept however I do see the fleet staying in size with the 73G/738 fleet growing.
A332/333 These will be kept but when a sufficient amount of 787's enter the fleet these MAY go at least the A333, I believe the A332 may be of more value.

AGAIN These are MY views and not actual fact of what will happen with DL in 5 years. I DON'T have any bias towards Boeing or Airbus but I do want to see them succeed.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WESTERN737800
Posted 2008-04-15 15:54:07 and read 19609 times.

I think DL & NW should bring back the 727s to help with the fleet commonitly issues. Smile

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 15:54:39 and read 19609 times.

Also, the non-ER 767-300 fleet isn't as old as many people think. In fact, Delta's newest non-ER 767-300 (N144DA) was delivered in 1999. Delta's oldest non-ER 767-300 currently in service (N121DE) was delivered in 1987; Delta operates several 757s that are older. N121DE has already been retrofitted with PTVs, so even their oldest non-ER 767-300 will remain in service for years to come. None of the routes served by the non-ER 767-300s require the range of a 767-400ER, and doing such would be a waste.

Also, Delta plans on installing the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites on the 767-400ERs? Why would Delta install new sleeper suites and remove them shortly after? Seems like a big waste of money.

In addition to my posts, please also read CV880's posts to see why Delta will NOT convert the 767-400ERs back to domestic.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FX1816
Posted 2008-04-15 16:00:38 and read 19525 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 160):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 159):
This would mean the 777s would become the "Pacific Fleet", the A330s the "Atlantic Fleet" and 787s the "Africa/New Route" fleet, with 763s filling in gaps within range.

Sounds like a maintenance nightmare.

Really??? I don't think you know anything about the airline industry then. That is a much better scenario for maintenance I mean think about it say an A330 breaks down well all of the DL parts stores for the A330 would be somewhere in EU, AMS perhaps. Now it would be very easy to pull parts and send them to the aircraft. Basically your 777 parts stores and mechanics would be based in the "Pacific", the A330 parts stores and mechanics would be based in the "Atlantic" and the 787 parts stores and mechanics would be base in "Africa". Although ATL would also have parts stores too!!  Smile

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 16:01:57 and read 19459 times.



Quoting NYCAA (Reply 161):
It's all about seniority whether you fly the left seat or right seat. A 15 yr captain on the DC-9 will not be furloughed while a new hire pilot is flying on another equipment type. This is why the seniority list is so important to this employee group.

I know about seniority and how it's the lifeblood of a pilot's career. When you join a major, you hopefully are with them for life. But what happens when your carrier is bought or merged with another who keeps their brand name not yours. Without a doubt there's gonna be hatred in the cockpit.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: TN757Flyer
Posted 2008-04-15 16:06:21 and read 19431 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 153):
MD-80s will stay. More 737-800s will be added. If I were a NW Airbus pilot/747 pilot I'd be looking for a new job soon or hopefully hold out that DA might, just might retrain you for an aircraft DA currently operates. Don't hold your breath though.

You're talking about the replacement of over 100 narrow bodies alone. Do you think those 738's are just magically going to appear? How is DL going to pay for them while they integrate the two companies? I do agree the single aisle Airbus will probably not stay, but it will take more than two years for them to go away. Much longer. As for the 744's, they are good for the interim on the routes they serve. DL + NW doesn't have sufficient numbers of anything large enough to replace them. A 773 order would take several years to replace the 744's. The 332/333 fleet is relatively young and would fit a niche for DL alongside the 763's until the 787's start arriving in numbers, and assuming more are ordered (along with more 772/773). No way will all the a/c you are talking about go away that fast unless DL guts NW completely, and that's not likely. After all, this isn't AA we are talking about.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WESTERN737800
Posted 2008-04-15 16:12:39 and read 19347 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 166):

I'm sure when you have a NW & a DL pilot in the same cockpit there might be some friction. I'm sure that crews from both sides will professional to not let it get in the way of giving the flying public a good product. At my job a coworker and myself had a major blowup and we flew the next day with no problems in the airplane.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FLALEFTY
Posted 2008-04-15 16:12:57 and read 19339 times.



Quoting NYCAA (Reply 161):
A 15 yr captain on the DC-9 will not be furloughed while a new hire pilot is flying on another equipment type. This is why the seniority list is so important to this employee group.

Good point!

It will be interesting to see how the combined seniority list eventually gets worked out.

Will a DL 777 captain bump a NW 744 captain when bidding for the coveted Asia/Japan routes? And do NW DC-9 or DL MD-88 pilots have more to fear from the eventual bumping of marginal NB domestic routes to their regional divisions?

I guess The New Delta's managers have this all figured out!?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 16:18:16 and read 19326 times.



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 165):
I don't think you know anything about the airline industry then

Calgon take me away!!!! irked 

Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 167):
Do you think those 738's are just magically going to appear?

No but any used one's will be taken up pronto. Look when it comes to the NW Airbus/747 fleet it's days are numbered whether that be 2 years or 5 or 10. Delta won't keep them.

Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 167):
The 332/333 fleet is relatively young and would fit a niche for DL alongside the 763's until the 787's start arriving in numbers

Like I said they'll be dumped eventually. Golly I know some here would just jump for joy seeing an Airbus painted in DA colors and jeepers you might get your chance........but they ain't staying with DA for the very long term.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Nwaramper
Posted 2008-04-15 17:17:23 and read 18661 times.

Will the new Delta refurbish the interiors of the Northwest fleet 757/320/319 with on demand video systems?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Meta
Posted 2008-04-15 17:28:23 and read 18508 times.



Quoting Nwaramper (Reply 171):
Will the new Delta refurbish the interiors of the Northwest fleet 757/320/319 with on demand video systems?

For the 757 it depends because if they continue to fly the same routes then there becomes a weight issue. I remembering reading in another thread here on a.net that NW wanted to put IFE on thier 757 for transatlantic, but they ran into wieght problems.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 17:34:20 and read 18435 times.



Quoting Nwaramper (Reply 171):
Will the new Delta refurbish the interiors of the Northwest fleet 757/320/319 with on demand video systems?

Probably not the entire fleet, but maybe some aircraft. I think that the 757-300s will most likely get PTVs with AVOD and live satellite TV. NW's international 757s may also get PTVs with AVOD. For the A319/A320, perhaps a small subfleet could get PTVs/AVOD similarly to the 737-800s. The rest of them could be left as is or at least retrofitted with overhead video.

However, some of NW's domestic 757s have had their IFE systems removed. I was wondering, could Delta add back IFE to these aircraft? Perhaps instead of the old CRT monitors, Delta could install ceiling-mounted LCDs over the aisle (similar to what AA is doing in their 757s). NW is one of very few airlines who operate 757s without IFE.

Also, will Delta reconfigure the layouts of some of Northwest's 757-200s to match Delta's configurations? Northwest's older pre-1995 757s feature a different exit layout, so it wouldn't be possible with those aircraft. Actually, NW's older 757s feature the same exit layout as Delta's ex-TWA 757s, however, the 757s that Northwest uses on international routes feature the layout with overwing exits.

Also, what I am really wondering about is whether Delta will install PTVs in economy on the 747-400s. Northwest has claimed that it is too costly to warrant such installation, however, Delta has installed PTVs with AVOD on their 767-400ERs, ex-TWA 757s, and 777s.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bravo1Six
Posted 2008-04-15 17:41:53 and read 18330 times.

While this is all very interesting, presumably the various lessors of the aircraft that everyone is convinced will immediately be gone upon completion of a merger will likely have a say in whether or not they want their aircraft back early....

I'm also with TNT757Flyer...you can't just say "Make it so" and have brand new airplanes show up magically on the ramp.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Nwaramper
Posted 2008-04-15 17:42:39 and read 18336 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 173):
However, some of NW's domestic 757s have had their IFE systems removed. I was wondering, could Delta add back IFE to these aircraft? Perhaps instead of the old CRT monitors, Delta could install ceiling-mounted LCDs over the aisle (similar to what AA is doing in their 757s). NW is one of very few airlines who operate
757s without IFE.

Northwest's 757 fleet still has all the wiring in place so Delta could just add the flat LCD screens and digital player back into their original place.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Phileet92
Posted 2008-04-15 17:46:06 and read 18292 times.

The NW domestic a/c could really use some touch ups like AVOD and newer seats, possibly the Recaro seats used on delta's newer international 757s? However, not really a fan of the new Delta diagonal lie flats. very little leg room and seems like passengers would get little personal service. I hope they keep the NW WBC seats on the A330s and 747s and sell them as the same class fare. Just need some touch ups on the NW economy seats on the pacific fleet. Maybe even bring back FIRST CLASS??? I mean they ARE AMERICA'S PREMIER GLOBAL AIRLINE!!! they would need to upgrade the inflight experience to compete with American, United, and other Five Star Global Carriers!!! Im kinda bummed but kinda PUMPED!!! for the future.

Spread your WINGS Delta and Northwest!!! I hope you have a pleasant future.

-phileet92

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-04-15 17:57:53 and read 18172 times.

...something of interest...

..fair use excerpt:

" April 15 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. may benefit from the merger between Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. as the carriers band together for new cash from growth overseas to replace their aging fleets.

The tie-up, announced yesterday, creates the world's largest carrier and may lead to a bigger order for Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner in particular. Northwest ordered 18 of the model in 2005, with options for 50 more.

''If anything, it increases the likelihood that the options will be exercised for the 787s to accommodate the expanding international network,'' Northwest Chief Executive Officer Doug Steenland said yesterday. Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian added today the combined company may exercise options for as many as 20 new wide-body jets, including 787s, 777s and 747s. ""

full article at..

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aLgn5Fo0.5tE

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Meta
Posted 2008-04-15 18:01:52 and read 18095 times.



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 16):
Delta will not trim down AMS. and 100% not NRT. This deal makes sense because of NWA's presence in Far East

Suppose the new Delta does cut down on these routes then wouldn't that create a problem for KLM? They always codeshare with NW for routes such as BDL/EWR-AMS. Does that means KLM would need to send their own metal to these location?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-04-15 18:04:09 and read 18057 times.

Even if DL does decide to transition to a Boeing-only fleet, it will take time. However, DL does have the advantage that A330s, particularly, are in hot demand right now so they might consider letting some go to generate cash for other things.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-15 18:50:54 and read 17537 times.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 177):
Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian added today the combined company may exercise options for as many as 20 new wide-body jets, including 787s, 777s and 747s. ""

Yep. Expect them to be for 789s and 77Ws, with new options taken out for 787s and 748s.

I still believe DL would have a fleet of at least 10 747s, the six newest 744s and 4 748s. There are issues of commonality (different engines, different capacity) but they would be close enough that a swap of a 744 for a 748 would not likely strand any pax except when 100% booked.

But who knows, maybe they'll just take the plunge for 10 748s to replace all the older 744s. Any such decision won't come until 2009, when they will have planned more. Either way, it's 10 77Ws or 10 748s plus 10 789s. That's my bet.

And again, you might see 5 more A332s to bring the total to 16.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-15 18:59:00 and read 17442 times.

I was wondering, if Delta orders the 747-8i, will Delta switch to the GEnx for the 787's engines? It makes more sense for commonality, as the GEnx is the exclusive engine on the 747-8i. Delta is no stranger to operating different types of engines for a single type. The 767-300(ER) fleet features both GE and P&W engines.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SKORD
Posted 2008-04-15 19:08:51 and read 17319 times.

Ok, im a bit nieve, but im UK based. Last week i booked TPA-EWR in October. Can i expect disruption to our flights and Schedule changes? DL offered the beat deal and timings, NW wanted nearly $700 for the same route, but i got it on DL for £$99! How will this deal between DL/NW affect customers?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: AerLingusA330
Posted 2008-04-15 19:41:21 and read 16934 times.

Will Delta keep the current NW 757 flight from BDL-AMS?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-04-15 19:42:16 and read 16917 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 180):
Yep. Expect them to be for 789s and 77Ws, with new options taken out for 787s and 748s.

..even though DL would probably be able to fly routes with the B77W, I expect them to take more B772LR's first....they have tremendous uplift capabilities for the current DL/NW routes.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-04-15 20:24:02 and read 16428 times.

Any one know how long Delta operated the Pan Am A310's?

My money is on all Boeing as that has paid off for Delta in the past.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-04-15 20:33:21 and read 16352 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 179):
Even if DL does decide to transition to a Boeing-only fleet, it will take time. However, DL does have the advantage that A330s, particularly, are in hot demand right now so they might consider letting some go to generate cash for other things.

A330's will bring easy to sell on the secondary market or perhaps Boeing will make a deal like they did with Singapore and take them on trade.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: ATWZW170
Posted 2008-04-15 20:37:03 and read 16305 times.

Is there a combined route map yet?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-04-15 21:06:27 and read 16040 times.



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 17):
As to the A vs B issue, I suspect that since Delta is in charge the preference for Boeing will remain. There will be no big rush to get rid of Airbus planes, and any contracts for Airbus planes will probably be kept. The A330's will stay but new planes in that size will most likely be 787's. The main question is what will happen with the A320's. I suspect that they will take the 737's on order (perhaps changing the73G's to 738's) but not order any new planes until the 737RS is available, and retiring the oldest and least efficient planes in the fleet, as I suspect the combined fleet will have more NB's than they need. Much as I hate to say it, that probably means sayonara to the DC-9's (I never thought I'd have to say that.) So for a while going forward they will be flying A320's, MD-80's, 737's and 757's. Down the road the MD-80's and A320's will probably be replaced by 737RS's. There is a chance that, with all the trouble Boeing is having with the 787 that the A320RS will beat the 737RS, in which case the game may change, but I doubt it.

Remember that DL and NW have very little overlap. In fact, they share, what...12 city pairs? Thus, there is very little room to eliminate flights, and thus, aircraft.

I do not think that this merger will have much effect on current fleet makeup. I also doubt that it will have much effect on retirement (the DC-9's might go a bit quicker, but that's it). It *will* have an effect on future orders.

But any attempt to predict what effect that will be would involve knowing something about the climate of air travel (including fuel prices and competing modalities, such as high-speed rail) in the next two decades.

And nobody --and I mean NOBODY-- can predict that.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PM
Posted 2008-04-15 21:16:53 and read 15923 times.



Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 185):
Any one know how long Delta operated the Pan Am A310's?

Long enough for them to order nine more in their own right...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WingnutMN
Posted 2008-04-15 22:19:00 and read 15460 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
Because we are talking about a 2-class 250 seat 788 replacing an A332 and a 290 seat 2-class 787-9 replacing an A333.

NW is/was only going to configure the 788s with 221 seats. So once again, you can't replace an 333 or really even a 332 with it.

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2005/pr050520051588.html

On top of that, I still don't see them flying an 8000 nm range aircraft on a 4100nm flight. 787s WILL be used for pacific flights!

Also, in my earlier post about replacing 763 with the 788 and 789....I was meaning the non ER models first, but after further thought, I don't see them replacing them with 788/789s, but with a 783 if boeing still is interested in building it. I almost see the new DL as the savior of the 783 line.

WingnutMN

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: IRelayer
Posted 2008-04-15 22:27:26 and read 15395 times.

This has probably been mentioned a number of times already but there appear to be no fleet synergies in this merger other than the 757s...

NW: 747/DL: 777
NW: A330/DL: 767
NW: A320/DL: 737
NW: DC-9/DL: MD-80/90 (don't know if this qualifies given the age of the DC-9s).

My fleet plan would be: get rid of the 764s and retain the A332s to replace them. Ditch the 21 domestic 767-300s and retain the 21 A333s + the 753s to replace them (this would involve reduction/increase of capacity obviously). Replace the A330s AND the 763ERs with 787s in concert with 772s (I am assuming all 50 options on the 787 will be exercised to accomplish this) when they arrive. Further, get rid of the DC-9s (I think this one is obvious) and shift DC-9 flying to Compass/Comair and other regionals (I'd imagine MSP and CVG will be turned into regional hubs...sadly). Use the merger as an excuse to retire the oldest 757s and cull down the leases on the A319/A320s. Replace the MDs with the remaining A320s and increase the 737 orders to eventually replace those.

You would end up with:

68 787-8s + 16 777s + 16 744s (replacing 59+21 767s, 21 764s on the Delta side and the A330s on the NW side).
This would give you 3 AC types for long haul and have the majority of your future fleet based around ultra-efficient aircraft.

A mixed fleet of A320s and 737s (at least for a while).

Around 150-200 757s, some of which can be used on thin routes to Europe or South America.

By the way, just wanted to say that I am really sad to see NW go. They have been around since 1926! So much history, such great liveries! However, this "merger of equals" will create a truly global airline and I'm excited at the prospects!

-IR

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 22:42:02 and read 15327 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
NW bought the A330 for TATL. Go back to the PR from 2001 and see. I did. That they are on Asia now is because they needed to replace the 742s and didn't have 777s to do it.

With DL and NW combined, things can be readjusted. The A330s can be returned to their primary role as TATL aircraft, from the east, midwest, south and west, without range issues. The larger planes can go into LHR and the SkyTeam hubs, the A332s into other major destinations.

Well the A332 has a good range which makes it ideal for the Pacific routes. Things have chanced after the PR from 2001 and NW/DL are now having a huge 767 fleet for TATL routes which they can not drop overnight or use all on domestic flights.
So I would stick to my prediction:
767-300ER, 757, A330-300 Transatlantic
747,777,A332 Transpacific

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
One reason I think DL will order more 777s and A330s is availability. They could start receiving them in 2010, right when they will start needing them for replacement. They will be able to retire non-ER 763s at that point and the oldest 744s and shift their fleet around as above. The 787s won't start coming in until 2010 either, but will be used for expansion. They will go on long range routes that bypass NRT. They will open up Africa and non-stop China routes.
That's how I, a nobody, see the future. 777s and A330s for fleet renewal, 787s for route expansio

I agree on that if they buy new aircraft soon 777s and A330 will be part of the order since they are available earlier.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 145):
Using what aircraft? They certainly won't keep any 747s let alone the 747-200F.

Why would they drop the 747 so soon ? Okay the 747-2ßßFs are old but I don´t see any reason why the 747-400 would be dropped

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 147):
There's no chance that DA is keeping any Airbus/747 aircraft after the merger. Within 2 years of the final merger all A320/19/330 and 744/742 will off to a second hand sale lot.

Again why would they drop the 747 and shiny new A330s ?? The A330 are big money makers on the Atlantic and the 747 make money on the NRT flights. The 777 does not have the cargo or passenger capacity than the 747.

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 162):
You can't just dump over 100 MD-80/90's or over 100 A32X's and expect to pick up the slack.

If you are real a.net CEO you can  Smile Replace them all with 777 and tell Boeing to start 757 production again since the A320 does not perform good enough,  Smile

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 177):
''If anything, it increases the likelihood that the options will be exercised for the 787s to accommodate the expanding international network,'' Northwest Chief Executive Officer Doug Steenland said yesterday. Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian added today the combined company may exercise options for as many as 20 new wide-body jets, including 787s, 777s and 747s. ""

Only 20 ? That would be like 10 787, 5 777s and 5 747s. Hopefully the 747s are not freighters.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: ElmoTheHobo
Posted 2008-04-15 22:47:14 and read 15287 times.



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 66):
Hmm... I could get only 11:

JFK-AMS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-04-15 22:48:30 and read 15282 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 194):
Only 20 ? That would be like 10 787, 5 777s and 5 747s. Hopefully the 747s are not
freighters.

..I would say that would exclude their 18 787 orders (and 50 options) by NW and the B777 orders by DL..and I agree on the freighter part... Smile

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-15 22:57:15 and read 15212 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 194):
Again why would they drop the 747 and shiny new A330s

To achieve fleet commonality as quickly as possible.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-15 23:10:25 and read 15159 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 197):
To achieve fleet commonality as quickly as possible.

They have 130 A32xs, 32 A330s and 16 747s all fleets are big enough to stand on their own.
Commonality is one thing, but the 747 is paid for and makes money for them same goes for the A330s, NW is currently the largest operator of that type and are very satisfied with them. They are perfect for transatlantic flights.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: BrightCedars
Posted 2008-04-16 00:24:26 and read 14762 times.

Quotes of the DL CEO from Reuters

...won't mean canceling existing plane purchases, or shifting its fleet strategy, the chief executive of what will become the world's biggest airline said on Tuesday.

"The combined airline will be the largest operator of (Airbus) A330s and the largest operator of (Boeing) 767s and 757s," said Anderson. "So you're basically going to have a very balanced fleet between Boeing and Airbus and we would expect that would be the case going forward."

That is crystal clear. In the future they will use both manufacturers, which makes a lot of sense.

I guess this is better news for Airbus than it is for Boeing though.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-16 01:24:57 and read 14617 times.



Quoting Reuters:
According to the plane makers' websites, Delta has 52 Boeing planes on order, comprising 46 single aisle 737s and six 777 minijumbos. Northwest has 18 of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliners on order and seven Airbus single-aisle planes

I like the term 777 minijumbo  Smile

http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSN1546898920080415

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2008-04-16 01:27:03 and read 14609 times.



Quoting Reltney (Reply 148):
This is easy.. Boeing financed the buy out (I know you read merger with the press but as you airline employees know, the press is always wrong and miss informed) Airbusses are history..

Boeing financed they buy-out? Right. So the whole story about swapping stocks is not true?

I think Boeing needs it's money more (read B787 delay penalties) than using it to finance take overs and/or mergers.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 170):
No but any used one's will be taken up pronto. Look when it comes to the NW Airbus/747 fleet it's days are numbered whether that be 2 years or 5 or 10. Delta won't keep them.

Now, there's a safe thing to say! Of course the days of the B747-400's are numbered. They are numbered with any airline around the globe, just as they are for every other plane type flying with an airline in the world. Eventually planes need to be replaced with something new.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 197):
To achieve fleet commonality as quickly as possible.

Fleet commonality is definitely not the first issue to tackle when merging these two massive operations. Priorities are going to be stuff like IT, finance, HR, purchase (non airplane related), service and sales.

The new Delta will probably continue to operate like two separate airlines under one brand name at first. If you want to reach commonality first, you'll need to invest large sums of money that isn't there. That money needs to be created by the other synergies I typed above.

Only when those synergies are starting to pay-off, you look at commonality in your fleet as an airlines fleet is the company largest asset. It takes a massive amount of money to invest when buying and operating new planes, not only the planes itself, but also training maintenance and flight crews etc.

Of course, if planes are getting very old and are up for replacement, these will be bought and these will be bought for the both of them.

Take a look at another large take-over/merger, AF-KLM. At first they started with the things I mentioned above. The first step to fleet commonality was taken three years after the merger with a combined order for Ejets. Another step will take place this year, four years after the merger with a combined order for A350's or B787's.

Don't expect any big changes in the fleet at Delta for almost the same period. There are more issues to tackle first.

Cheers!  wave 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Centrair
Posted 2008-04-16 01:31:42 and read 14593 times.

I made a chart of a combined fleet a few months back.

It is now a moot file but I did eliminate:
MD80s
MD90s
DC-9s
A319
DH8-100
CRJ-200

In their places I added more EMBs and the C-series based on NW's current deposits and options with those companies.

I wonder how NRT will end up, how they will use NGO and FUK route authority. I also wonder what new things would happen for 5th freedom out of Japan.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-16 01:35:51 and read 14608 times.



Quoting Centrair (Reply 202):
It is now a moot file but I did eliminate:
MD80s
MD90s
DC-9s
A319
DH8-100
CRJ-200

In their places I added more EMBs and the C-series based on NW's current deposits and options with those companies.

The A319 will stay for awhile  Smile
[

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Rheinwaldner
Posted 2008-04-16 03:40:19 and read 14403 times.

IMO the first aircraft for replacement will be the 767. I think after all 787 are delivered the only other change is a reduction of the 767 fleet (Maybe less than one 767 for each 787 -> the difference would create any desired growth).
If the 747 shall be dumped too within 5 years (not quite likely) a considerable amount of 777 or 748I will be phased in (so that the overall seat-count remains).
I don't see any other widebody fleet alterations.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Pictues
Posted 2008-04-16 04:17:02 and read 14276 times.



Quoting Bigbird (Reply 37):
None of this will take place without Mr. Bush s approval and that without any pilot s agreement all you that you are going to wind up with is DL North(MSP) and DL South(ATL).

They have a pilots agreement already, so only waiting on bush's approval plus the operating certificate process does take time, and nothing will stop them from painting the aircraft into Delta, just using NW crews to fly the NW planes and DL pilots to fly the DL planes ie US Airways, even before they had the same operating certificate they were already painting the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: JFK787NYC
Posted 2008-04-16 04:40:34 and read 14191 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 104):


Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 102):
DL could replace the 777 on TLV with an A330, and move the 777 elsewhere, where its range could be better used.

I actually think that JFK-TLV is a good A330 route. The route can benefit from cargo. Also, many have complained about the lack of PTVs on that route as it is served by a 767-300ER. Put one of NW's A330s on the route and people will stop complaining.

You are right this is the reason I have not switched to Delta for the JFK-TLV from Continental's EWR=TLV route because I do not want to fly 10 hours in there 767 when I have the choice of Continental's 777 or EL ALs 747 & 777

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Undrtkrav8tr
Posted 2008-04-16 04:53:45 and read 14143 times.

Anyone know, or willing to comment on NW Airlink, and what will happen there?

ME

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-04-16 05:09:19 and read 14100 times.



Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 167):
Do you think those 738's are just magically going to appear?

With a huge backlog for 737s as it is, combined with a similar need at AA to replace the oldest MD-80s with 737-800s then the answer to that is an emphatic 'No!'.

The DC-9s will be the first to go ASAP with whatever is ordered, but expect a mixed fleet of A320s/737s for quite some time. Air Berlin seem to get on fine operating the two types alongside each other, but yes the age is against the A319/A320s in the DL/NW case. I think here DL will order whichever type they can get a good deal on, or may decide to hold out for a long time for the new generation of short-haul aircraft providing they can do this - in particular the A320srs.

The so-called "gentleman's agreement" between DL and Boeing means nothing now that the new airline has come to fruition, and it will all boil down to which aircraft from any manufacturer meets the needs of DL the best and at a good price, and delivery timescales will play a huge part.

As with the A330s and 767s, I think what we can expect to leave the fleet first is the oldest 767s providing DL can acquire suitable replacements. They would be fools to get rid of the A330s which are nearly-new, but if finances become an issue they can rake in a lot of money for them on the second-hand market and 20yrs down the line it wouldn't surprise me to see them being sold on to be converted into freighters.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 121):
Why do people even think Delta will bring the 767-400ERs back to domestic routes?

I find it baffling that people think that 767-400ERs back on domestics is the way forward, otherwise they would still be there by now and that could've been DL's downfall had they not filed for Chapter 11. They are cash cows on the international routes and I can't see that changing now that the two airlines have merged. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 159):
764ERs: high capacity domestic routes including Hawaii.

FFS!  banghead 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2008-04-16 05:18:30 and read 14047 times.



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 142):
Comparing the NWA scheme with Deltas aircraft color scheme, it IS sad. the NWA scheme is elegant, sporty, just beautiful. Deltas scheme by comparison is much too boring. although the font of DELTA is all bussiness which I like, the color scheme is WAY too bland for americas premier airline. Im sure as the important things get settled, we will see a new color scheme - I REAALLY HOPE.

The new color scheme will be about number 2167 of things to consider for the new airline.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 147):
There's no chance that DA is keeping any Airbus/747 aircraft after the merger. Within 2 years of the final merger all A320/19/330 and 744/742 will off to a second hand sale lot.

I would be willing to bet good money against that fiction.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 151):
MD-80s will stay. More 737-800s will be added. If I were a NW Airbus pilot/747 pilot I'd be looking for a new job soon or hopefully hold out that DA might, just might retrain you for an aircraft DA currently operates. Don't hold your breath though.

Do you not know that seniority determines what aircraft a pilot flies?

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 155):
No I'm not bitter towards Delta although I know some PA crews were after their merger with Delta. Airline mergers have a way of making one side look down at the other. To a DA pilot a NW pilot will be the outsider.

DL did not merge with PA. They bought assets at a fire sale.

Quoting Reltney (Reply 148):
This is easy.. Boeing financed the buy out (I know you read merger with the press but as you airline employees know, the press is always wrong and miss informed) Airbusses are history..

Where did you get that piece of fiction?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2008-04-16 05:24:16 and read 14012 times.



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 206):
The so-called "gentleman's agreement" between DL and Boeing means nothing now that the new airline has come to fruition

No it means the same thing as it did last week, remember DL is the continuing entity, DL can enforce it if they so choose but Boeing has given up the right. This is the same state that was the case after the Boeing-MD merger. You are absolutely correct that DL will purchase the aircraft they think will provide them the best use of capital, be it under the "agreement" or not.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 206):
With a huge backlog for 737s as it is, combined with a similar need at AA to replace the oldest MD-80s with 737-800s then the answer to that is an emphatic 'No!'.

The same holds true for the A320 series' backlog. Given the popularity of the A330 and the B777 the most avail aircraft is the B767. However, DL and NW can sneak a slot here or there on the other two lines. I don't anticipate any large scale orders of either B or A aircraft in the immediate future.

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 197):
Quotes of the DL CEO from Reuters

...won't mean canceling existing plane purchases, or shifting its fleet strategy, the chief executive of what will become the world's biggest airline said on Tuesday.

"The combined airline will be the largest operator of (Airbus) A330s and the largest operator of (Boeing) 767s and 757s," said Anderson. "So you're basically going to have a very balanced fleet between Boeing and Airbus and we would expect that would be the case going forward."

That is crystal clear. In the future they will use both manufacturers, which makes a lot of sense.

I guess this is better news for Airbus than it is for Boeing though.

All this means is that they are not going to wholesale replace their fleet, which would be idiotic. It says nothing of their tendencies for purchases to replace existing types as that becomes needed. Remember the DL last week was a very different airline than the one in 1997 when they were still royally P.O. at A, so this is nothing new.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 200):
I wonder how NRT will end up, how they will use NGO and FUK route authority. I also wonder what new things would happen for 5th freedom out of Japan

It all depends on how quickly Asian routes and markets are liberalised. The more liberalised it is the more NRT will be bypassed.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mk777
Posted 2008-04-16 05:40:52 and read 13948 times.

Are the services to India going to be affected.

Currently DL flies ATL-JFK-BOM on the 77L. I am sure JFK-DEL is on the cards once more 77L's come in!!

NW flies SEA-AMS-BOM on the A332. Is this going to change, say to CCU or MAA??

Also KL flies to DEL, HYD

AF flies to BLR, BOM, DEL

but I doubt these flights would change.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: MBJ2000
Posted 2008-04-16 06:09:28 and read 13858 times.

Now I'm gonna tell you the *REAL* story:
A friend of mine who's got a friend working as a janitor for DL told me what will happen with the fleet.
DLNW will do a sort of tabula rasa:
* All EJets, CRJ, DC-9, MD-xx, 737, 757, 767, older A320, 777, 747 will go away
* Outstanding 737, 777 orders will be all converted to 787-8
* Order alarge batch of brand new A319/320RS that will replace anything up to the 757
* Order a massive batch of ATR-42/72
* Order some 150 A350-9/10 and 30 A332/333 for interim lift
* Order 10 A380-800 and have further 10 options to be converted later to A380-900

It must be true, it's in the internet! Big grin

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2008-04-16 06:17:46 and read 13812 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
-777s will be pulled from Europe, flying Asia and Africa

As others have noted, DL flies no 777's to Europe right now.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
752s will fly all over the USA, maybe pulled from TATL.

There will be enough 757's around to fly just about anywhere, including TATL.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 68):
So. Finally, we know the answer about the famous "When will NW retire it's DC-9?" question:

Never, because NW will cease to exist before retiring them!

Or, in other words:

"Never, because the DC-9's will outlast NW."

Quoting Lexy (Reply 87):
it's equally pointless to have a "symbollic" livery" too.

The newest DL livery is certainly symbolic. Look which way the widget points.

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 126):
The next route announced will be SYD from LAX with the 77L.

This would explain the remark about serving all continents, wouldn't it?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: TN757Flyer
Posted 2008-04-16 06:53:49 and read 13663 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 168):
No but any used one's will be taken up pronto.



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 206):
With a huge backlog for 737s as it is, combined with a similar need at AA to replace the oldest MD-80s with 737-800s then the answer to that is an emphatic 'No!'.

I was going to say to Dc863, I don't know what is sitting in the desert, but I doubt there are many, if any surplus 738's laying around. So yes, those will be difficult to come by in the near term. The question is will DL keep the 73G's that they had ordered for Central American routes and other long, thin routes? It would seem a logical choice to have a mix of G's and 8's. I do eventually see the narrow body Airbus family going away, but thats at least 5 years away if not more.

People are talking about replacing the 763's with 787's. OK, makes sense, but DL has a buttload of 763's, so the logical decision is to keep the 330 family. Yeah fleet commonality is nice, but there comes a point where you have to take what you have and go with it. The 330's will do well on certain European routes as well as some west coast-NRT flights they currently serve. No need to get rid of those anytime soon. Same for the 744's. Unless DL eventually buys the 773 (or 748), they won't have anything to replace it size wise. Despite the age of some, they are still very viable and would serve DL well on major routes they are already flying, and perhaps a few DL routes that could use the extra capacity (pax and cargo).

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-04-16 07:03:45 and read 13622 times.



Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 212):
The question is will DL keep the 73G's that they had ordered for Central American routes and other long, thin routes? It would seem a logical choice to have a mix of G's and 8's.

It could depend on the difference in trip costs. AS, for example, has discovered that the 73G and 738 have very close trip costs for the routes they fly, so they are moving forward with the 738 for future purchases because it offers better revenue potential.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-16 07:05:16 and read 13606 times.



Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 210):
Now I'm gonna tell you the *REAL* story:
A friend of mine who's got a friend working as a janitor for DL told me what will happen with the fleet.
DLNW will do a sort of tabula rasa:
* All EJets, CRJ, DC-9, MD-xx, 737, 757, 767, older A320, 777, 747 will go away
* Outstanding 737, 777 orders will be all converted to 787-8
* Order alarge batch of brand new A319/320RS that will replace anything up to the 757
* Order a massive batch of ATR-42/72
* Order some 150 A350-9/10 and 30 A332/333 for interim lift
* Order 10 A380-800 and have further 10 options to be converted later to A380-900

It must be true, it's in the internet!

I think that janitor has been sniffing too much cleaning fluid! Big grin

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: VictorKilo
Posted 2008-04-16 07:10:47 and read 13599 times.

NW currently uses the A332 to Asia, with a few routes to Europe. I expect DL 763's to fly the A332 flights to Europe (SEA/PDX-AMS, SEA-LHR), rotated through AMS, freeing up A332's for other flights that would take advantage of the A332's range.

NW currently uses the A333 primarily to Europe, rotated through MSP to HNL to KIX and NRT and through NRT to GUM and SPN. DL uses the 764's from ATL, SLC, and LAX to HNL. I would expect that these routes would all be flown by one fleet type, either the A333 or 764, with the possibility that the SLC or LAX 764 flights being flown by other fleet type (non-ER 763 or 753).

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Flavio340
Posted 2008-04-16 07:22:33 and read 13563 times.

Here is a some what combined international route map: http://newglobalairline.com/customers/international/map.png

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyingDoctorWu
Posted 2008-04-16 07:39:24 and read 13530 times.

Nice summary of the current fleet including graphics about what is paid for and what is leased...

Looks llike the 747s arent really paid for so to speak...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1208...7040817921.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Big version: Width: 389 Height: 461 File size: 18kb

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-04-16 07:54:20 and read 13428 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 187):


Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 185):
Any one know how long Delta operated the Pan Am A310's?

Long enough for them to order nine more in their own right...

I think you better re check your source on that..

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2008-04-16 08:07:46 and read 13379 times.

I think you will stop seeing Delta fly the 777s to Europe, they will replace them with A330s on Europe routes. The 777s will be needed for Asia.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-16 08:09:33 and read 13357 times.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 62):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 61):
According to the two CEO's, the 744's will be kept and some moved,

And... do you believe him?

Well, gee whiz....now when the CEO of a major airline says he(his airline)is interested in the birds, then thats a
door slammer, dont ya think?
If anyone else makes the same statement, it just doent have the power or trust as A number One.
Anderson wants the 747 on the ATL-Orient run and perhaps a couple of others.
In conversation with Anderson or a low ranking official, I would believe Anderson first and foremost.
The CEO know more about the company and whats good for it $$$$wise then the guy three floors down......knowwhatImean?
safe

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-16 08:10:12 and read 13354 times.



Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 218):
I think you better re check your source on that..

Unnecessary. The information is correct. Delta ordered a number of new build A310-300s to replace A310-200s.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 219):
I think you will stop seeing Delta fly the 777s to Europe, they will replace them with A330s on Europe routes.

That would be hinged on them operating them to Europe now. They don't.  Smile

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-16 08:14:37 and read 13373 times.

It’s time to debunk a few myths that persist in (dis)coloring people’s expectations about the future DL fleet.

1. DL will retain and likely expand the NW Airbus fleet and could be a major customer for the 350.

The 310s were in poor shape when inherited from Pan Am and had poor performance on DL’s transatlantic routes using DL’s conservative route planning requirements; Airbus provided a very sweet deal on new build A310s in order to convince DL to try new A310s; the new 310s were of good quality but still couldn’t meet the performance or cost comparisons vs. the 763ER so DL dumped them on very short notice which was permitted.

What happened years ago is not reflective of the performance or quality of NW’s Airbus fleet . The 330 is a very capable aircraft and will be extensively used on DL’s original network (not just ex-NW routes). Same for the 319/320.

DL execs have already told its employees that the Airbus aircraft will not only be retained but heavily used on key DL routes.

2. DL will not dispose of or acquire large numbers of any aircraft (which includes any fleet type) for the next five years because doing so is very expensive. The US industry is still very much in transition. DL and NW have good balance sheets and they aren’t going to trash them replacing planes that may not be the most modern or cost efficient but do work well. DL execs have said that the MD80 and DC9 have very good economics compared with comparable new build aircraft but more seats makes for better economics which is why the DC9 fleet will continue to be drawn down SLOWLY.

3. A large purpose of this merger is to reallocate NW’s larger int’l aircraft to DL’s int’l routes since DL has generally smaller int’l aircraft. On the other hand, DL has larger domestic aircraft than NW but DL doesn’t have a 100 seater. The 744 and 330 will become very common in ATL while the 763/4ER will be more common in DTW and MSP.

ATLGRU, NRT, and TLV have been specifically cited as DL routes that could benefit from NW’s larger aircraft.

4. DL and NW take very different approaches to route planning. DL has built large hub to spoke int’l routes while NW basically has a hub to hub int’l operation. The beauty of the 767 is that it will allow DL to open up many new routes from DTW and MSP to Europe and even Asia. It is no longer necessary to continue to fly multiple 333 flights from MSP and DTW to AMS if DL (and AF/KL since revenue will be shared) can carry passengers more efficiently to their final destination on a nonstop instead of via AMS or NRT.

5. There is huge potential for DL to add new routes from all DL/NW gateways to Asia by overflying Japan. The 787s and 777s will be well used in ATL, JFK, LAX, DTW, and MSP to add new routes throughout Asia; NW’s position as the 787 US launch customer provides a huge jump start advantage in replacing NW’s NRT current hub operation with more efficient nonstop US hub to Asia spoke routes.

6. Japan will continue to be very important but DL will not be routing many of the same cities through NRT/KIX/NGO as are routed today. Many of those cities will be served nonstop from the US. DL will also grow the number of NRT flights from the US but will likely use smaller aircraft. JFK, BOS, and possibly SLC and MCO are likely to get new nonstops to Japan.

7. The 757 is a great plane to develop both new intra-Asia routes and nonstop DTW and possibly BOS-Europe routes and will be used in that role. DL and NW will operate the largest 757 ETOPS fleet in the world (as well as largest 757 fleet overall) when including 753s and DL and NW’s fleet of 752s. Across the Atlantic, the trend will continue to be to open new nonstop routes. To Asia, the 757s will be used to connect new cities that have never had US carrier service to the NRT hub.

8. DL will add service to Australia. A 772ER could easily fly LAX-SYD; a 330 or 767 could easily fly NRT-Australia. Anderson’s “slip” about serving six continents is just one of the many “revelations” that will come out about new routes = and these revelations will help mitigate the political opposition to the deal. MN lawmakers will be swayed when DL talks about the new routes that will be added from MN.


9. It will remain to be seen how quickly DL will acquire large widebodies because they are expensive but it is far more likely that the 773ER will be bought instead of the 748I or the 380. The purpose of buying new int’l airplanes is to add many more spokes, not to pump passengers through larger hubs. DL will have the advantage of at least three viable gateways to every region of the world.

10. DL will upgrade the interiors and uprate performance on NW’s fleet just as it is doing to DL’s fleet. The various a/c types will have comparable amenities based on the missions they are intended to serve. Ie… it is likely the NW transpac fleet witl get the same sleeper suite product DL has on the 777LR while the 330s and 767 will have the better Thompson Benz business class true lie flat seat. The Cozy suite is likely to be added to all int’l widebodies that will be retained for more than 5 years and with that addition the DL 767s will receive a better product than what the NW 330s have now.

11. The M90s and potentially many more around the world will likely be added once the pilot seniority issues are worked out. Replacing NW DC9s with DL M90s will only aggravate the integration process.

12. NW cargo could well be retained but older 763s might be converted and replace the 747s. The 777LRs and 787s have very good cargo capabilities and those capabilities will be well used.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-16 08:34:11 and read 13263 times.



Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 217):

The A320 line includes, of course, the 319. NW does not have over 100 A320's flying or on order.
safe  bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Jetlanta
Posted 2008-04-16 08:37:54 and read 13259 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):
It’s time to debunk a few myths that persist in (dis)coloring people’s expectations about the future DL fleet.

1. DL will retain and likely expand the NW Airbus fleet and could be a major customer for the 350.

The 310s were in poor shape when inherited from Pan Am and had poor performance on DL’s transatlantic routes using DL’s conservative route planning requirements; Airbus provided a very sweet deal on new build A310s in order to convince DL to try new A310s; the new 310s were of good quality but still couldn’t meet the performance or cost comparisons vs. the 763ER so DL dumped them on very short notice which was permitted.

What happened years ago is not reflective of the performance or quality of NW’s Airbus fleet . The 330 is a very capable aircraft and will be extensively used on DL’s original network (not just ex-NW routes). Same for the 319/320.

DL execs have already told its employees that the Airbus aircraft will not only be retained but heavily used on key DL routes.

2. DL will not dispose of or acquire large numbers of any aircraft (which includes any fleet type) for the next five years because doing so is very expensive. The US industry is still very much in transition. DL and NW have good balance sheets and they aren’t going to trash them replacing planes that may not be the most modern or cost efficient but do work well. DL execs have said that the MD80 and DC9 have very good economics compared with comparable new build aircraft but more seats makes for better economics which is why the DC9 fleet will continue to be drawn down SLOWLY.

3. A large purpose of this merger is to reallocate NW’s larger int’l aircraft to DL’s int’l routes since DL has generally smaller int’l aircraft. On the other hand, DL has larger domestic aircraft than NW but DL doesn’t have a 100 seater. The 744 and 330 will become very common in ATL while the 763/4ER will be more common in DTW and MSP.

ATLGRU, NRT, and TLV have been specifically cited as DL routes that could benefit from NW’s larger aircraft.

4. DL and NW take very different approaches to route planning. DL has built large hub to spoke int’l routes while NW basically has a hub to hub int’l operation. The beauty of the 767 is that it will allow DL to open up many new routes from DTW and MSP to Europe and even Asia. It is no longer necessary to continue to fly multiple 333 flights from MSP and DTW to AMS if DL (and AF/KL since revenue will be shared) can carry passengers more efficiently to their final destination on a nonstop instead of via AMS or NRT.

5. There is huge potential for DL to add new routes from all DL/NW gateways to Asia by overflying Japan. The 787s and 777s will be well used in ATL, JFK, LAX, DTW, and MSP to add new routes throughout Asia; NW’s position as the 787 US launch customer provides a huge jump start advantage in replacing NW’s NRT current hub operation with more efficient nonstop US hub to Asia spoke routes.

6. Japan will continue to be very important but DL will not be routing many of the same cities through NRT/KIX/NGO as are routed today. Many of those cities will be served nonstop from the US. DL will also grow the number of NRT flights from the US but will likely use smaller aircraft. JFK, BOS, and possibly SLC and MCO are likely to get new nonstops to Japan.

7. The 757 is a great plane to develop both new intra-Asia routes and nonstop DTW and possibly BOS-Europe routes and will be used in that role. DL and NW will operate the largest 757 ETOPS fleet in the world (as well as largest 757 fleet overall) when including 753s and DL and NW’s fleet of 752s. Across the Atlantic, the trend will continue to be to open new nonstop routes. To Asia, the 757s will be used to connect new cities that have never had US carrier service to the NRT hub.

8. DL will add service to Australia. A 772ER could easily fly LAX-SYD; a 330 or 767 could easily fly NRT-Australia. Anderson’s “slip” about serving six continents is just one of the many “revelations” that will come out about new routes = and these revelations will help mitigate the political opposition to the deal. MN lawmakers will be swayed when DL talks about the new routes that will be added from MN.


9. It will remain to be seen how quickly DL will acquire large widebodies because they are expensive but it is far more likely that the 773ER will be bought instead of the 748I or the 380. The purpose of buying new int’l airplanes is to add many more spokes, not to pump passengers through larger hubs. DL will have the advantage of at least three viable gateways to every region of the world.

10. DL will upgrade the interiors and uprate performance on NW’s fleet just as it is doing to DL’s fleet. The various a/c types will have comparable amenities based on the missions they are intended to serve. Ie… it is likely the NW transpac fleet witl get the same sleeper suite product DL has on the 777LR while the 330s and 767 will have the better Thompson Benz business class true lie flat seat. The Cozy suite is likely to be added to all int’l widebodies that will be retained for more than 5 years and with that addition the DL 767s will receive a better product than what the NW 330s have now.

11. The M90s and potentially many more around the world will likely be added once the pilot seniority issues are worked out. Replacing NW DC9s with DL M90s will only aggravate the integration process.

12. NW cargo could well be retained but older 763s might be converted and replace the 747s. The 777LRs and 787s have very good cargo capabilities and those capabilities will be well used.

My friend, thank you for the most rational, realistic look at the fleet opportunities and synergies that I have seen on this board. I completely concur.

I know a lot of people give you grief about being a cheerleader, but posts like this show the value of your insight. I only wish some folks would READ it and let is sink in. Because you know that three posts from now, someone is going to ask when Delta is going to get rid of the Airbus fleet! Again.

To everyone on here, WT knows what he is talking about here.

One other point, take a look at the LOPA (seat chart on the the Thompson Solutions site) for the A330 and see what happens. The economics of that aircraft become phenomenal.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mk777
Posted 2008-04-16 09:26:05 and read 13136 times.



Quoting Flavio340 (Reply 216):

U missed the destinations in India altogether.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SkyTeamTriStar
Posted 2008-04-16 10:05:39 and read 13064 times.

OPINION: Looking 5 yrs into the future, If I were a bettin' Man, the airline will probably create 'Round-The-World route. Let's suppose they don't. Would "FLIGHT 1" be flown TATL or TPAC and your guess about pairings.

[Edited 2008-04-16 10:16:32]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: KochamLOT
Posted 2008-04-16 10:17:22 and read 13005 times.

After Dc-9s, MDS retire:

Domestic

low yield routes served by older, smaller dc-9s given to regionals with e-jets like compass, etc...
A319s
737-800s
757-200s (slowly rid of old/domestic 757s)

International

757-200 (East Coast transatlantic like Ireland,England)
767-300/400 (slowly replace all 767-3/4s with 787s - a long time) (Smaller Euro destinations, S.America, Transcon)
777-200 (Transpacific, Central Asian routes)
A330-200/300: A330s for transaltantic from east coast, midwest)
787 (Europe, S.America, Africa)
747-400 (transpacific, perhaps 7478 to replace 744 to cargo in later years if needed)

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-04-16 10:35:40 and read 12931 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):

A very interesting insight, thanks for taking the time to post it. It has certainly shot down a lot of far-fetched/ego desiring myth's that have been seen on this thread (Airbus fleet to be phased out, 764s back on domestics etc).

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 224):
I know a lot of people give you grief about being a cheerleader, but posts like this show the value of your insight. I only wish some folks would READ it and let is sink in. Because you know that three posts from now, someone is going to ask when Delta is going to get rid of the Airbus fleet! Again.

To everyone on here, WT knows what he is talking about here.

What he says!  yes 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dalb777
Posted 2008-04-16 10:36:43 and read 12937 times.



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 226):
Would "FLIGHT 1" be flown TATL or TPAC and your guess about pairings.

My guess it would stay JFK-LHR, possibly with a bigger aircraft, though.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-16 10:40:52 and read 12923 times.



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 224):
but posts like this show the value of your insight.

As far as I can tell, it's still opinion. Informed opinion because he follows DL closely, but opinion.

Not only haven't DL worked out all the details of their plan yet, but things also change over time.

And nobody at DL mentioned the A350 at all, let alone becoming a "major customer" for it. They have mentioned the 777, 787 and 748 already.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2008-04-16 10:56:16 and read 12896 times.

Interesting that the combined airline will be:
-Largest 757 operator (200 combined) - taking the title from AA
-Largest 767 operator - (DL)
-Largest A330 operator - (NW)
-2nd Largest A319/A320 operator (NW) - this has gone back and forth between UA & NW
-2nd Largest former-MD operator (DC-9/MD-80/MD-90 series) - only AA is larger

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):
It’s time to debunk a few myths that persist in (dis)coloring people’s expectations about the future DL fleet.

Thank You!!!! Its about time someone wrote a post to shoot down some of these rediculous ideas that have been thrown around, such as dumping all Airbus, massive aircraft orders, etc. I know we've disagreed on things in the past, but I am in total agreement with what you wrote. I

f you will notice, the usual NW & DL followers are the ones that have been rather rationale in their posts, but the arm-chair clueless posters sure have come out of the woodwork on a lot of these fleet discussions. I sweat some people forget how much money a lot of these things cost.

As WT saids, reallocating some aircraft fleets will give them a lot more flexibility to do things they currently can't do today.

When NW ordered the A330's they were intended to be a DC-10-30 replacement across the Atlantic. A lot in the industry has changed since early 2001 when they were ordered, and while they serve the major tier-1 cities (LHR, CDG, FRA) and hub routes (AMS) as well as work very well on West Coast-NRT, they are simply too large to be able to enter 2nd tier European markets that are outside of the range of the 75A's. Reallocating some of the smaller 763's, will enable DL to more to Europe from DTW like FCO, MAD, etc and also make DTW-South America finally happen (where there is growing demand thanks to the auto industry)

Plus, there is a lot that DL can do with the A319's, particularly to points south out of ATL and from the Midwest/East Coast to SLC. This will basically give them a lot more aircraft comparable to the 73G almost immediately in range & capacity.

It will be interesting to see how they reallocate aircraft and what this does to crew bases. For the widebodies it won't be as much of a factor. But moving DC-9's to ATL could be interesting, since there are a lot of super-senior -9 pilots that live in DTW & MSP. Interesting that this could come full circle once again, as NW used to have a DC-9 maintenance facility at ATL until about 2001/2002.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-16 11:00:48 and read 12869 times.

Hmm, I can't comprehend english very well.

[Edited 2008-04-16 11:01:48]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2008-04-16 12:08:11 and read 12683 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 119):
We are now talking about the largest airline in the world, not DL or NW individually. The new DL will funnel more connections through certain airports, thus increasing the size of the aircraft.

Absolutely! You just have to look at the number of cities that they both serve (mainline and regional) and then look at the O/D traffic and you will see a tremendous shifting of traffic as you anticipate onto larger aircraft throughout the new system.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):
11. The M90s and potentially many more around the world will likely be added once the pilot seniority issues are worked out. Replacing NW DC9s with DL M90s will only aggravate the integration process.

You forget that pilots are retiring at a fairly large rate (albeit somewhat unpredictably month to month) that will allow significant fleet rationalization without getting the pilots offside.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2008-04-16 12:13:32 and read 12654 times.



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 211):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 68):
So. Finally, we know the answer about the famous "When will NW retire it's DC-9?" question:

Never, because NW will cease to exist before retiring them!

Or, in other words:

"Never, because the DC-9's will outlast NW."

Better worded...

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2008-04-16 12:31:10 and read 12582 times.

There was an article in both the PG and Trib today about PIT in the aftermath of this merger, and it looks like there will be no cuts, as of right now... I also wonder if the new airline will still have an agreement with KLM on their flights from JFK, ATL, DTW, CVG, etc to AMS and CDG?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-16 12:54:18 and read 12523 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):

I also agree with that post.......except the MD-90. I cannot see DL keeping this bird much longer after this deal is closed in say, November or December of this year. The A320 can do what the 90 is doing now. Why keep a small number of planes(26?) on hand when you have another that can do the same thing in range and seats? I see the MD90, DC-9 and MD-80's gone by January First of 2012, three years after the closing.
This opens the door for more, sorry, R.J's with 120-135 seats.
I think Anderson likes what Dougie did to NW to streamline it down and my two bits is DL will do the same BUT NOT
for a couple of years AFTER the merger close...and that will take 6-8 months.
safe

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2008-04-16 13:26:36 and read 12416 times.



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 236):
This opens the door for more, sorry, R.J's with 120-135 seats.

120-135 seat RJs? No one makes them.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 236):
BUT NOT for a couple of years AFTER the merger close

Yes, things won't "visibly" change too much for a year after the merger and that is because the regionals have to be rationalized first.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2008-04-16 14:34:44 and read 12264 times.



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 235):
I also wonder if the new airline will still have an agreement with KLM on their flights from JFK, ATL, DTW, CVG, etc to AMS and CDG?

The new airline is a member of Skyteam which just received ATI approval from the US government for AF/KL/DL/NW to act as one across the Atlantic. So yes, they will have an agreement

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: OA412
Posted 2008-04-16 16:14:10 and read 12073 times.



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 225):
Quoting Flavio340 (Reply 216):

U missed the destinations in India altogether.

I noticed that too but the map itself comes directly from the DL/NW merger site. It's the only international destination that they seem to have missed.

Incidentally, did anyone else notice that NBO is no longer showing as a destination and that it is not listed as a destination from JFK (and that neither is LOS). I did a search on DL.com and came up with nothing. Looks like, after being postponed, these two won't be happening after all.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-16 16:19:13 and read 12075 times.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 207):
Do you not know that seniority determines what aircraft a pilot flies?

Uh yes I am. I talked to a Delta captain who is long since retired who never bid on the L10s. Instead he stuck with the DC-8 till he retired.
A PA Captain did the same when it came to a choice of moving to the left seat of a 747, instead he chose to remain in the left seat of a 727.

Delta dumped the A310s from PA after a few years, the same might happen with NW's A330's.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-16 16:50:39 and read 11996 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 240):
Delta dumped the A310s from PA after a few years, the same might happen with NW's A330's.

Only if they are problematic. From what I understand, the A330s aren't. The A310s and A300s up through the early A306s weren't of the same quality as the A330/A340 take on that design.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PM
Posted 2008-04-16 17:06:13 and read 11951 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 240):

Delta dumped the A310s from PA after a few years, the same might happen with NW's A330's.

You REALLY don't want the new Delta to fly A330s, do you?  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Flyer9000
Posted 2008-04-16 17:10:13 and read 11934 times.



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 240):
Delta dumped the A310s from PA after a few years, the same might happen with NW's A330's.

A lot of lines in this thread like this...

In the past few years I've flown three different US airlines across the Atlantic and a number of transcons on international configured birds - mostly coach, but some business class as well.

I can say with certainty that the NW A330 blows away anything else in America that I have been on for coach class product. The cabin looked great, much better than any other, probably in part because the planes are so new. All of business and 1/2 of coach have 110VAC outlets. The IFE blows away not only coach but also many international business class. Food sucked, but thats universal.

These planes also being fairly new are probably among the most efficient for transatlantic crossing.

I find it very hard to believe Delta would move them. I would put them on the most competitive routes - like JFK-LHR, etc.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-16 17:27:04 and read 11870 times.



Quoting Flyer9000 (Reply 243):
The cabin looked great, much better than any other, probably in part because the planes are so new. All of business and 1/2 of coach have 110VAC outlets. The IFE blows away not only coach but also many international business class. Food sucked, but thats universal.

CO has some newer 777s with wider seats (but with less pitch), AVOD and power at every seat. The whole fleet is going there. 752s are also going there (though obviously, the seats are narrower, blech). Not saying it's better or even as good, but the NW birds don't "blow everything else away." Just the carriers who don't care about their customers?  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-16 17:57:35 and read 11801 times.



Quoting Bigbird (Reply 37):

All of you remember this. None of this will take place without Mr. Bush s approval and that without any pilot s agreement all you that you are going to wind up with is DL North(MSP) and DL South(ATL). I do presume that all of you have not forgotten about US and their problems. After all, that is 3 years and counting.

US shot themselves in the foot regarding their merger for a lot of reasons. the pilots were a small part of it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 58):
I don't really see the 747s leaving the Asian market.

true but they will be used from ATL, DTW, and JFK if they show up there to round out an Asian itinerary. ie you can't fly ATL/JFK/DTW - NRT in 24 hrs so you have the plane available for some time that it could do something else. It is very likely that an ATLNRT flight would be couple with something else like ATLTLV or ATLGRU. It costs you one more plane but you use it very efficiently.

DTWNGO and DTWKIX will not remain 744s. I guarantee it. Don't need a 744 flying across the Pacific in order to operate a tag to TPE or MNL. Plus NGO and KIX will get new service, possibly from LAX with 767s or 330s. the total transpac seats into Japan will increase but they will be flown on smaller gauge aircraft. The minimum number of transpac capable widebodies will be used for intra-Asian flights. The NRT hub will be reworked to increase the efficiency of the transpac fleet. Remember it will no longer be NECESSARY to route US-Asia traffic through NRT because most if not all of these cities will be flown nonstop from the US.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 224):
My friend, thank you for the most rational, realistic look at the fleet opportunities and synergies that I have seen on this board. I completely concur.

thank you very kindly.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 230):
As far as I can tell, it's still opinion

It is factual opinion. As Jetlanta shows, the best posts come when we listen to what is said and then draw rational conclusions.

I'll be happy for you to review my 12 principles in 2 years and see how well I did. I'm pretty confident that I'll be shown to be right just like I was on my 18-24 month to do list for DL (post less than 2 years ago) which said that DL would acquire an airline with a transpac route system. Guess I was right.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 231):
-Largest 757 operator (200 combined) - taking the title from AA

DL already had that title when AA gave up the TW 757s and DL picked them up. DL will have nearly 300 757s/767s with the same cockpit, more Airbus aircraft than NW has. 500 aircraft can be flown by 2 sets of pilots; that's pretty good fleet commonality.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 236):
I also agree with that post.......except the MD-90. I cannot see DL keeping this bird much longer after this deal is closed in say

DL will acquire more, not retire existing MD90s. They are very inexpensive on the used market (far cheaper than the A320, used or new) but the MD90 has the same engine and fuel efficiency and can actually carry more passengers. The MD90 will become a larger part of the DL fleet and will likely be used to replace DC9s - but only after the pilot seniority issues are resolved.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Kaitak744
Posted 2008-04-16 18:02:13 and read 11760 times.

Even though the A330 is an oddball in the NW/DL fleet, it will continue to be operated. They will act simply as "more 767s" for DL (more aircraft for Africa / S. America / Europe). And that is something they would love.

DC-9s could easily be phased out. There will obviously be a lot of capacity cuts (overlapping routes and closure of MEM and CVG). Thats enough already to let go of about half the DC-9s.

Also, are NW 757-200s ETOPS rated? If so, I see them being fitted with winglets and put on trans Atlantic routes.

Also, I think the DL 737-700 order will be canceled and transferred to a 737-800 order or a 787 order.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-16 18:09:23 and read 11729 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 222):
L and NW will operate the largest 757 ETOPS fleet in the world (as well as largest 757 fleet overall) when including 753s and DL and NW’s fleet of 752s.

Assuming of course CO/UAL do not merge.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-16 18:38:19 and read 11701 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 247):
Assuming of course CO/UAL do not merge.

I'm not sure how many ETOPS 757s UA has but CO's 753s are not ETOPS aircraft anyway. CO does have a large ETOPS 752 fleet. It's also worth noting that most of DL's 752s can be wingletted and the winglet process raises the MTOW to 255K pounds which is the same as what the TW/CO/AA/NW ETOPS 757s are. Thus, by wingletting the 757s, DL could convert most of its 757s to ETOPS aircraft during the winglet process in addition to adding overwater nav equipment. I doubt if they will because it's not necessary but DL has no shortage of existing or potential 757 ETOPS aircraft. NW supposedly has up to 16 existing or potential ETOPS 752s.

BTW, I see I hit 4000 posts on my previous posting on this thread.  Wow!

[Edited 2008-04-16 18:39:44]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-16 19:05:51 and read 11573 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 248):
s but CO's 753s are not ETOPS aircraft anyway.

Again you are well versed with regards to DL, but terribly misinformed about other carriers. While true the 757-300s that were delivered new to CO are not ETOPS, the 757-300s acquired from ATA are indeed ETOPS.

CO currently has 49 ETOPS 757s (41 757-200s, 8 757-300s)

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-16 19:11:47 and read 11561 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 249):
While true the 757-300s that were delivered new to CO are not ETOPS, the 757-300s acquired from ATA are indeed ETOPS

yes, I did forget about the ATA ETOPS. But they aren't used on overwater routes, or are they?

But it still doesn't change anything since DL/NW has over 100 existing or convertible 757s. Unless CO acquires UA and converts those aircraft (if they can be), then DL still will have more ETOPS 757s.

And we also don't know what will happen to CO, now do we?

They just might get the boot from Skyteam and have nowhere to go if UA decides to shack up with US and AA decides they'd rather stay alone - which seems like a pretty good idea right now. I can't honestly think CO wants to mess with AA until AA gets their labor problems taken care of.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-16 19:18:07 and read 11554 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 250):
yes, I did forget about the ATA ETOPS. But they aren't used on overwater routes, or are they?

They can be as ATA flew them in scheduled service to Hawaii and military charters to Europe, currently the longest route CO has their 757-300s operating is IAH-LIM.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 250):
And we also don't know what will happen to CO, now do we?

Nor is it guaranteed DL and NWA's proposed merger will reach fruition either.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2008-04-16 19:24:25 and read 11533 times.



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 246):
Even though the A330 is an oddball in the NW/DL fleet, it will continue to be operated. They will act simply as "more 767s" for DL (more aircraft for Africa / S. America / Europe). And that is something they would love.

32 aircraft is not an odd-ball fleet. Remember that that -200's are a 240-seat aircraft and the -300's seat 290.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 246):
DC-9s could easily be phased out. There will obviously be a lot of capacity cuts (overlapping routes and closure of MEM and CVG). Thats enough already to let go of about half the DC-9s.

NW was planning on parking between one-third to one-half of the DC-9's by the end of 2008 anyways. MEM has very little DC-9 flying anyways. Nevermind the DL has said they want to use the -9's in the future.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 246):
Also, are NW 757-200s ETOPS rated? If so, I see them being fitted with winglets and put on trans Atlantic routes.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 248):
I doubt if they will because it's not necessary but DL has no shortage of existing or potential 757 ETOPS aircraft. NW supposedly has up to 16 existing or potential ETOPS 752s.

NW currently has all 16 753's ETOPS certified. They currently have 10 752's ETOPS certified, with an additional 6 that can be converted to ETOPS. Not all of them were put in Trans-Atlantic configuration yet. These are the newer 5600-series aircraft with the over-wing exits, delivered in the mid-90's. The older 5500-series 752's (with the mid-cabin galley & exits + the rear "mini-cabin" are not ETOPs upgradable. These are the aircraft with the most shoddy interiors in the NW fleet, delivered in the mid/late-80's.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Kaitak744
Posted 2008-04-16 19:44:56 and read 11445 times.



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 252):
MEM has very little DC-9 flying anyways.

I know, but that is not what I meant. Say if you shut down MEM and have 30 free A320s. You then take those and replace 30 DC-9s at DTW or MSP. Same with CVG. Shut that down, and transfer DL 737s and MD-80s to DTW and MSP.

It is like indirectly replacing the DC-9s.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Worldtraveler
Posted 2008-04-16 20:02:09 and read 11412 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 251):
Nor is it guaranteed DL and NWA's proposed merger will reach fruition either.

You are in the minority if you think this merger won't go through. Even the industry naysayers acknowledge it is likely to go through - and there are far fewer obstacles than any other possible network carrier combination.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 253):
It is like indirectly replacing the DC-9s.

but you can't generate more revenue than what you had before. The reason DL is not closing hubs is because it is harder to unwind costs than revenue.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-16 20:22:54 and read 11356 times.



Quoting Worldtraveler (Reply 254):
You are in the minority if you think this merger won't go through.

I was also in the minority when I predicted the Giants would beat the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl, however getting back to the discussion I did not say I do not think DL/NWA will happen. My point was if your going to make statements about a combined DL/NWA as a matter of fact you might as well throw CO/UAL in there too for a fair comparison.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-16 20:25:05 and read 11373 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 252):
32 aircraft is not an odd-ball fleet.

It's larger than CO's 767 fleet and CO's 777 fleet. Are those fleets oddballs?

32 A330s is a good sized widebody fleet.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyingClrs727
Posted 2008-04-16 22:08:56 and read 11210 times.



Quoting CV880 (Reply 105):
The remaining domestic 764's should be converted to international configuration, and a few 763-ER's returned to domestic long haul routes (ATL/JFK/DTW/MSP-Hawaii) in the new high density configuration (24F 238Y). Pax capacity would be very close to the current 764 capacity.

I wonder if some of the non ER 763's could be outfitted with the Thompson Solutions Cozy Suites for high density domestic routes. Adding about 30 extra seats would improve the CASM. Economy passengers on trascons could benefit from the extra personal space on long flights.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-16 22:16:24 and read 11214 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 245):
It is factual opinion. As Jetlanta shows, the best posts come when we listen to what is said and then draw rational conclusions.

Wow.

"Factual opinion?" "The best posts?"

No point to disagree with you on anything you ever write again, because you obviously know more than anyone, your opinion is good as fact, and your posts are the best.

Glad to know. Clears a lot up.

But please show me where anyone involved in the merger talked about becoming a major A350 customer?

Or was that just "speculative opinion?"

You'll have to make sure to tell us when your opinion is fact and when it is just opinion.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ocracoke
Posted 2008-04-16 22:19:18 and read 11196 times.



Quoting OA412 (Reply 239):
Quoting Mk777 (Reply 225):
Quoting Flavio340 (Reply 216):

U missed the destinations in India altogether.

I noticed that too but the map itself comes directly from the DL/NW merger site. It's the only international destination that they seem to have missed.

Incidentally, did anyone else notice that NBO is no longer showing as a destination and that it is not listed as a destination from JFK (and that neither is LOS). I did a search on DL.com and came up with nothing. Looks like, after being postponed, these two won't be happening after all.

That map in reply 216 is not a combined map of the two airlines, but rather a map of what each one flys uniquely. All the red dots are all the cities only NW flys to, and all the blue dots are all the cities that only DL flys to. Since DL and NW both fly to BOM, it's not on the map, as neither is NRT, nor LAX, nor SEA, nor AMS, and so on.

If you go to the SEC filings on delta.com, the maps are easier to see (can enlarge them). EYW is on this map, because only DL flys there, but MIA isnt, because both go there.

Thus, it really only gives an idea as to what each airline brings to the party, but not really a world-wide route map of all destinations.

PS. I'm really surprised at all the mountain west cities that NW does not fly to. I thought they had a much bigger presence from MSP to these cities.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ocracoke
Posted 2008-04-16 22:23:54 and read 11188 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 258):
"Factual opinion?"

That is a pretty good one, eh?  Smile

Someone call up Hillary, Obama, or McCain and let them know of that saying. I'm sure they could get many miles out of it in politics.



Factual opinion........

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Sldispatcher
Posted 2008-04-16 22:30:48 and read 11178 times.

Does anybody think a new form of the old Delta Milk Runs will come back? For instance...ATL to JAN to TUL to SLC flight? etc. etc.

Are the economics of the flight such that the single mainline aircraft and crew can do that for less than the multiple RJ crews and craft and FUEL required to serve them independently?

Just curious....and from an aviation standpoint...could create some unique connecting opportunities once again..

(for disclaimer purposes, I do not live in any of the 4 cities mentioned..)

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: FlyingClrs727
Posted 2008-04-16 22:38:00 and read 11182 times.



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 142):
Also, it would be awesome to see the new DELTA to order a new flagship aircraft - like 747-800.

Why not the 777-300ER. It's bascially the same plane as the 777-200LR Delta is already buying for very long haul just in the 777-300 length. It has 747-200 passenger capacity with more freight and more range than the 747-400.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Speedbird0125
Posted 2008-04-16 23:10:03 and read 11147 times.

what's gonna happen to Asian route? Are they gonna keep using NRT as their Asian hub? or are they gonna change to somewhere like ICN since it's a big sky team hub?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 02:16:04 and read 11026 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 53):
The 73G has significantly more performance than the 319 so it will likely be used for Latin America/Caribbean but the 319 is ideal for CVG and MEM to the west and to develop new long thin routes from ATL and JFK.

They are literally identical planes, with the A319 offering the best base peformance
,

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 92):
777s and 747s are better for NR

NRT? No. Asia, yes.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 112):
CO has been using their 767-400ERs on international routes from the start, and has never had such problems.

No they were never intended to go internatonal.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 112):
While the A330 can carry more cargo on such routes, the added cargo capacity will not be enough to offset the A330's higher fuel burn.

That could not be farther from the truth. The plane flies further with a higher uplift of payload for a small fraction gain.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-04-17 05:20:07 and read 10827 times.



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 237):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 236):
This opens the door for more, sorry, R.J's with 120-135 seats.

120-135 seat RJs? No one makes them

Today? Nope, no one does, HOWEVER. come back in four years. There should be a few out there offered
from all over the world. The direction of the R.J. is .....make it bigger.
safe  coffee 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 777STL
Posted 2008-04-17 06:00:19 and read 10750 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 245):
It is factual opinion. As Jetlanta shows, the best posts come when we listen to what is said and then draw rational conclusions.

I'll be happy for you to review my 12 principles in 2 years and see how well I did. I'm pretty confident that I'll be shown to be right just like I was on my 18-24 month to do list for DL (post less than 2 years ago) which said that DL would acquire an airline with a transpac route system. Guess I was right.

You also claimed a year or so ago that UA would be liquidated within six months, and then you backpedaled on that and claimed that you were absolutely certain that UA would be gobbled up by DL. Neither has come to fruition. Therefore, you're right as often as you're wrong.

"Factual opinion" is one of the biggest oxymorons I've heard in quite a while, but it doesn't surprise me to hear something like that come from you. Honestly, your opinion is absolutely worthless to me because the simple fact of the matter is you're one of the biggest DL cheerleaders on here, i.e. you WILL NEVER have a critical opinion of anything DL has done or will do.

Tell me, if you're the all knowing expert that you claim to be, why are you sitting on an airplane website talking to a bunch of teenagers about it? Shouldn't you be off saving the airline industry from doom, since you've got it all figured out?

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SkyTeamTriStar
Posted 2008-04-17 06:39:26 and read 10641 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 258):



Quoting 777STL (Reply 266):

While no human being is perfect, WT is most accurate. Drop it & move on.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2008-04-17 07:20:56 and read 10542 times.



Quoting Flyer9000 (Reply 243):
A lot of lines in this thread like this...

In the past few years I've flown three different US airlines across the Atlantic and a number of transcons on international configured birds - mostly coach, but some business class as well.

I can say with certainty that the NW A330 blows away anything else in America that I have been on for coach class product. The cabin looked great, much better than any other, probably in part because the planes are so new. All of business and 1/2 of coach have 110VAC outlets. The IFE blows away not only coach but also many international business class. Food sucked, but thats universal.

These planes also being fairly new are probably among the most efficient for transatlantic crossing.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 244):
CO has some newer 777s with wider seats (but with less pitch), AVOD and power at every seat. The whole fleet is going there. 752s are also going there (though obviously, the seats are narrower, blech). Not saying it's better or even as good, but the NW birds don't "blow everything else away." Just the carriers who don't care about their customers?

CO's 777's are very nice planes. However (DiscoverCSG ducks to avoid flaming darts) I find the 2-4-2 arrangement to be superior to the 3-3-3 set-up. With 2-4-2, I can have my preferred sindow seat with a maximum of one person to climb across in order to get to the aisle. Except for the A seat in an ERJ, or a seat in F/J/C, that's as good as it gets.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 246):
Even though the A330 is an oddball in the NW/DL fleet, it will continue to be operated. They will act simply as "more 767s" for DL (more aircraft for Africa / S. America / Europe). And that is something they would love.

Well, compared to the number of 767's DL operates, NW's 330's will indeed be something odd. But, they do allow for more optimal assignment to various routes based on seating and cargo capacity, range, etc., which I think is what Kaitak744 is getting at.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 777STL
Posted 2008-04-17 07:53:31 and read 10480 times.



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 267):
While no human being is perfect, WT is most accurate. Drop it & move on.

Well maybe he should stop acting like he is perfect, ehh? He opened himself up to criticism with that "I'm the all-knowing expert on everything" post he made. I pointed out two instances when he was grossly incorrect, though he himself neglected to mention that. I'm sure I could find many more if I took the time to search, though I honestly don't care enough to do so.

And I still find the term "factual opinion" laughable. That made my day.... Big grin

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-17 08:14:04 and read 10425 times.



Quoting 777STL (Reply 266):
i.e. you WILL NEVER have a critical opinion of anything DL has done or will do.

I've only been on here a short while, but all I've seen from you is DL bashing. How is that any different?

Quoting 777STL (Reply 266):
airplane website talking to a bunch of teenagers about it?

I'm 60, bubba.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 09:26:44 and read 10306 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 264):
No they were never intended to go internatonal.

What do you mean here? CO has been using 764s on internaional routes ever since they entered service. They have never had such issues with cargo that you are claming. I assume the same is true with DL.

The 764 was designed to suit the requirements of both DL and CO, not just DL. Had DL been the only carrier interested, it would have featured much less range than what it actually features today. CO wanted at least enough range to handle some of the international routes. Thanks to CO's influence on the 764's design, DL has basically "learned" from CO that they are better used on international routes.

DL CFO Ed Bastian has stated in a video that he would like all 764ERs on international routes. He stated that using them on ATL-Florida routes was a huge mistake, and DL could make much more money by using them on international routes. Nowhere does he mention that cargo is an issue on these new internatonal routes.

On LAX/SLC-HNL routes, the 753 or non-ER 763 is simply more economical than a 764ER. Some are claiming that the non-ER 763s will not be in the fleet much longer, however, Delta is installing PTVs with AVOD and satellite TV on them, so this pretty much indicates they will be around longer than what some are claming. In fact, Delta's four ETOPS non-ER 763s (N140LL, N1402A, N143DA, and N144DA) that are used to Hawaii are DL's four newest non-ER 763s, delivered in 1993 (N140LL and N1402A), 1998 (N143DA), and 1999 (N144DA). That doesn't sound very old!

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2008-04-17 09:49:32 and read 10245 times.

Whatever happens the 763ER, A330's, 787-8 and 777 wil be here for a LONG time to come, 2015 or later.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 10:24:13 and read 10173 times.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 272):
Whatever happens the 763ER, A330's, 787-8 and 777 wil be here for a LONG time to come, 2015 or later.

As well as the 764ERs. I would actually think the 764ERs will be DL's last 767s to be retired, as they are Delta's newest 767s. Since there is no airline who would be really interested in buying Delta's 764ERs, it makes sense to keep them. I don't even think CO would be interested in buying them, as they have the 787 on order.

[Edited 2008-04-17 10:25:24]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-04-17 10:35:12 and read 10147 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 242):
You REALLY don't want the new Delta to fly A330s, do you?  wink 

I don't think half of a.net want to see A330s (or any Airbus aircraft for that matter) in the new DL at all. It's getting boring now reading the "experts" predicting the swift demise of Airbus aircraft from the new DL, especially considering that most of them don't work for DL or NW! Before anyone says, I am no expert on these things (never said I was), but I'm open-minded on these things and will always believe that whatever DL decide to do is because they see it as the way forward for them under their new guise.

Time moves on, but some people don't.  Yeah sure

Quoting 777STL (Reply 269):
Well maybe he should stop acting like he is perfect, ehh? He opened himself up to criticism with that "I'm the all-knowing expert on everything" post he made. I pointed out two instances when he was grossly incorrect, though he himself neglected to mention that. I'm sure I could find many more if I took the time to search, though I honestly don't care enough to do so.

Well if you don't like the manner and the tone of his posts (whether he's posting facts or fiction), how about keeping quiet, sit back, and wait and see what DL decide to do.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 777STL
Posted 2008-04-17 10:38:15 and read 10139 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 270):
I've only been on here a short while, but all I've seen from you is DL bashing. How is that any different?

Show me one instance in this thread of me bashing DL, bubba. kthxbye. You seem to be confusing me criticizing someone who opened themselves up to it with criticizing the airline. Off-topic, but it seems many of the DL fans here equate anything other than glowing, glorius praise for DL to be "bashing". I don't think I've ever truly bashed DL. Critical opinions sometimes, yes, but to many here, that seems to be bashing. I'm entitled to my opinion just as the DL fans are.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 270):
I'm 60, bubba.

I'm sorry. lol

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-04-17 10:48:40 and read 10123 times.



Quoting 777STL (Reply 269):
Well maybe he should stop acting like he is perfect, ehh? He opened himself up to criticism with that "I'm the all-knowing expert on everything" post he made.

It was incredibly condescending, but no less so than the "finally someone speaks the truth" accolades his long factual opinion got from DL fans right after.

I agreed with a lot of what he wrote in that post as opinion, but there was some stuff that was pure speculation, and others were suggesting that all if it was gospel and somehow factual, that everything he wrote was coming directly from the offices of DL.

Then when a simple comment was made to remember that it was still an opinion, I was attacked, including by him. Implying that his posts were the "best" was just ridiculous, frankly.

I appreciate his contributions to threads on DL. But he isn't always right about everything, even DL things.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Dc863
Posted 2008-04-17 10:54:47 and read 10087 times.

Well Delta execs according to the WSJ are going to trim the fleet to 5-6 types post merger.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 11:11:21 and read 10068 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 271):
What do you mean here? CO has been using 764s on internaional routes ever since they entered service. They have never had such issues with cargo that you are claming. I assume the same is true with DL.

DL has not and never intended to. The plane wasn't even insured for international flight, and it took them forever to get it resolved. And Continental's primary market for the plane was DC-10 replacement to Hawaii and close-in Europe destinations.

The A330-200 is superior in every way except, of course, it you need a smaller plane for capacity or gate space requirements.

I can say pretty confidently that 764s will roll backwards to less important routes and the A330 will take over many prestige routes, and my guess is that JFK-TLV will be one of the very first ones.


NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:14:22 and read 10054 times.

In addition to the Delta bashing, why is there so much 764ER bashing here? They are considered valuable to Delta. I know there are so many users here who want Delta to order more A330s to replace them. As I stated numerous times, the 767-400ER is more economical on the routes that Delta operates them. What many fail to understand here is that cargo has NEVER been an issue for Delta's international 767-400ER flights. It seems like the users here only want Delta to replace them with A330s to Europe. The international 767-400ERs are cash cows, and Delta will NOT reverse their decision on moving them to international routes.

The A330-200 is heavier than the 767-400ER, and thus burns more fuel on Delta's 767-400ER routes. The A330-300 is significantly larger than a 767-400ER, and would be too large for some of the 767-400ER routes.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 278):
The A330-200 is superior in every way except, of course, it you need a smaller plane for capacity or gate space requirements.

WRONG! The 767-400ER burns less fuel. The A330-200 is better suited for longer routes outside of the 764ER's range. You are IGNORING the fact that cargo has never been an issue on any of these routes.

Another 764ER basher on the loose!

[Edited 2008-04-17 11:21:01]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 11:18:46 and read 10034 times.

It isn't. Just because you stated it doesn't mean its true.

The international 764ERs is what Delta HAS. They make money, yes. But they are NOT the right plane for many of the markets. The A330 would be bring down multiples of the revenue.

Its like saying it doesn't matter what you get paid, because you do get paid. If you could be making more, you could be making more.

The 767-400ER is a a compromise in every way. A good one. But still a compromise.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:23:13 and read 10010 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 280):
The international 764ERs is what Delta HAS. They make money, yes. But they are NOT the right plane for many of the markets. The A330 would be bring down multiples of the revenue.

Again, you are IGNORING the fact that Delta has NEVER had issues with cargo on these routes. The A330-200 would not be beneficial at all. They are better suited for routes outside the 767-400ER's range.

Please, lets not turn this thread into an anti-764ER thread. It seems like you really only WANT Delta to replace the 764ERs with A332s on European routes.

[Edited 2008-04-17 11:24:38]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-17 11:25:45 and read 9997 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 279):
What many fail to understand here is that cargo has NEVER been an issue for Delta's international 767-400ER flights

This is not the old Delta anymore, it is a new airline, it will carry all the passengers and cargo that before has been carried by two airlines. Cargo has may not been an issue for the old Delta but the new Delta also owns NW Cargo now  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:27:01 and read 9984 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 282):
This is not the old Delta anymore, it is a new airline, it will carry all the passengers and cargo that before has been carried by two airlines. Cargo has may not been an issue for the old Delta but the new Delta also owns NW Cargo now

But does NW fly routes such as ATL-CDG or ATL-LGW? Nope. I don't expect any significant increase in capacity on these routes.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 11:28:37 and read 9975 times.

LOL. Come on kid. First, Have you not considered that Delta uses the 764s on the routes they use the 764s on for a reason? Perhaps it is that's what they are capable of? Second, you're just wrong and lets leave it at that.

Anyway, lets rampantly speculate about the 747s and where they will be put. Unless you believe that DL has never had a desire to carry more traffic or cargo than a 777 can carry.

Actually, that one might be true.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:31:12 and read 9957 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 284):
LOL. Come on kid. First, Have you not considered that Delta uses the 764s on the routes they use the 764s on for a reason? Perhaps it is that's what they are capable of? Second, you're just wrong and lets leave it at that.

And why do you need an overcapable aircraft on routes such as ATL-CDG or ATL-LGW? Its the same reason why Delta has largely eliminated the the 764ER on ATL-Florida routes. You are just trying to attack the 764ER and defend the A330. We all know know that you hate the 764ER with a fiery passion.

[Edited 2008-04-17 11:31:44]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 11:37:42 and read 9925 times.

Yeah, I do. The plane carries more people. They can't put a 777 on ATL-CDG or LGW so they did what they HAD to do , put 764s on there.

If they HAD more 777s, then I would say that JFK-TLV needs that. So does probably ATL-CDG, and prior to opening LHR it certainly needed a 777 as well. They don't have more 777s.

You're missing the point of course. Obviously I wouldn't think the more capable plane is right for every market.

I'm saying Delta wishes they had more 777s right now, not more 764s, and the 330 will fit that bill nicely in the interim.


You don't really pay attention or know what we're talking about, so its hard for you to have a conversation instead of argue. Just because what I said isn't exactly what you said doesn't mean it means the opposite.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:41:18 and read 9918 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 286):
If they HAD more 777s, then I would say that JFK-TLV needs that. So does probably ATL-CDG, and prior to opening LHR it certainly needed a 777 as well. They don't have more 777s.

Delta will NOT purchase more 777s to use on ATL-CDG. Why waste a 777-200LR on such route, if they can be used for what they are designed for - ultra long haul routes. The cold hard fact is that the 767-400ER is the ideal aircraft for the route.

Yes, I understand that Delta initially ordered them for domestic routes, but then came 9/11, and it became clear that this strategy was unsuccessful. Learning from CO's influence, Delta figured that it makes more sense to use them on international routes.

Also, remember that Delta announced that the 764ERs will get the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites in BusinessElite. I highly doubt that Delta would make a business decision without considering that consolidation was in the air. Rumors of a merger have been strong since Richard Anderson was elected new CEO.

[Edited 2008-04-17 11:44:14]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: CV880
Posted 2008-04-17 11:43:10 and read 9905 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 279):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 278):
The A330-200 is superior in every way except, of course, it you need a smaller plane for capacity or gate space requirements.

WRONG! The 767-400ER burns less fuel. The A330-200 is better suited for longer routes outside of the 764ER's range. You are IGNORING the fact that cargo has never been an issue on any of these routes.

Another 764ER basher on the loose!

IIRC, the 764 was purchased to replace the L10's on domestic high density routes, which the 285 pax capacity (vs 302 for the L10) has basically done. It also carries a helluva lot more cargo. On the other hand, it has some restrictive and quirky loading limitations with respect to full cargo/pax loads, so it can be a pain in the ass. In retrospect, other than the fact that both DL & CO got good deals on this aircraft, from an operational standpoint, DL would have been better off with more 777's. As for the 764 vs A330, the latter does have better cargo capacity, esp for palletized cargo, which is necessary in the cargo business.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 11:46:04 and read 9892 times.

LOL. Again, you didn't even get what I wrote, so I am going to stop writing about to you.

However, you should really consider the fact that you have no idea how much any of these planes burn in fuel, nor what Delta's revenue model for any of the routes are, or even what the cargo loads are. So don't post that you do as if it is a fact. You will avoid problems in the future.


NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-17 11:48:14 and read 9878 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 279):

WRONG! The 767-400ER burns less fuel. The A330-200 is better suited for longer routes outside of the 764ER's range. You are IGNORING the fact that cargo has never been an issue on any of these routes.

Another 764ER basher on the loose!

If the 764ER has its advantages over the A330 than I wonder why it only sold to DL and CO and not more airlines using it.
Just to make it clear, I am no 767-400ER basher, it is the best looking 767 and I find it sad that not more of them could be sold to other airlines, the fact is the A330 and 772 are superior. There is a reason why the 787-8 is larger and wider than the 767-400ER.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 283):
But does NW fly routes such as ATL-CDG or ATL-LGW? Nope. I don't expect any significant increase in capacity on these routes.

NW did not fly these routes because ATL was no hub of them. Still NW is flying to these cities and other European cities as well from their hubs in DTW and MSP carrying a lot of cargo. The new DL will not keep all the former DL and NW hubs some of them will closed, ATL will definitely stay a hub and a lot of cargo will be carried from there. I expect that some A330s and maybe even 747s will be transfered to ATL.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-04-17 11:51:20 and read 9880 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 281):
Delta has NEVER had issues with cargo on these routes (using a 767-400ER). The A330-200 would not be beneficial at all. They are better suited for routes outside the 767-400ER's range.

But are 246 passengers and 38 LD2s worth of cargo all that the market wishes to send via DL on those routes?

If it is, then the A330-200 is superfluous because it would not carry any more passengers or cargo then the 767-400ER, resulting in empty seats and LD3 positions.

If it is not, then DL could make more money carrying those additional passengers and cargo by using an A330-200, instead.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 11:55:59 and read 9878 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 291):
But are 246 passengers and 38 LD2s worth of cargo all that the market wishes to send via DL on those routes?


Yes, that is exactly my point.

Quoting Columba (Reply 290):
NW did not fly these routes because ATL was no hub of them. Still NW is flying to these cities and other European cities as well from their hubs in DTW and MSP carrying a lot of cargo. The new DL will not keep all the former DL and NW hubs some of them will closed, ATL will definitely stay a hub and a lot of cargo will be carried from there. I expect that some A330s and maybe even 747s will be transfered to ATL.

Delta has stated that there will be NO HUBS CLOSED. What, are you calling Richard Anderson a liar? The merger is about ADDITION, not SUBTRACTION.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-17 11:57:42 and read 9889 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 287):
Delta will NOT purchase more 777s to use on ATL-CDG. Why waste a 777-200LR on such route, if they can be used for what they are designed for - ultra long haul routes.

Where did Gigneil said ATL-CDG should be served a 777LR ? He just said 777, the 777-200ER is still available ?
Look what AF is sending on the CDG-ATL route:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christopher Weyer - AirTeamImages




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Padgett




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Wright



Seems to be enough capacity on the route to send a 747, A340 and 777 all bigger than the A332 or 767-400ER.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:01:43 and read 9862 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 292):
Yes, that is exactly my point.

Yes, your point is wrong.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 292):
Delta has stated that there will be NO HUBS CLOSED. What, are you calling Richard Anderson a liar? The merger is about ADDITION, not SUBTRACTION.

So, can you please illustrate for us the numbers that support Anderson's statement? What are some of the metrics he's using?


Wall Street isn't supporting this plan. Whether he promised to sacrifice a goat for each employee or keep MEM open, if the market swings to much he will have to change it.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:03:07 and read 9867 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 293):
Seems to be enough capacity on the route to send a 747, A340 and 777 all bigger than the A332 or 767-400ER

However, there are two Delta flights on ATL-CDG and only one Air France flight. I don't think that Delta would waste two 777s on the route. Also, your point for the 777-200ER is also moot, as Delta has converted all 777-200ER orders and options to the 777-200LR. Don't expect Delta to buy any more 777-200ERs.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:04:19 and read 9854 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 294):
Yes, your point is wrong.

No, your point is wrong. You are bashing the 764ER without valid reasons.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-17 12:05:19 and read 9854 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 292):
Delta has stated that there will be NO HUBS CLOSED. What, are you calling Richard Anderson a liar? The merger is about ADDITION, not SUBTRACTION.

If they don´t close any hubs than the hub system will be reorganised DL will not serve all cities from all hubs it is.
ATL will be their main hub and most of their passenger and cargo will be send through ATL.
My point is that you can not compare the old DL with new one, there will be changes in their strategy since they have much more opportunities now which they did not have before. Like sending an A332 to CDG carrying more passengers and cargo than before. The merger is not to keep the status quo of two struggeling airlines but to grow.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:08:14 and read 9838 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 297):
If they don´t close any hubs than the hub system will be reorganised DL will not serve all cities from all hubs it is.
ATL will be their main hub and most of their passenger and cargo will be send through ATL.
My point is that you can not compare the old DL with new one, there will be changes in their strategy since they have much more opportunities now which they did not have before. Like sending an A332 to CDG carrying more passengers and cargo than before. The merger is not to keep the status quo of two struggeling airlines but to grow.

Then that would still be subtraction. I am totally sure that the European routes out of DTW and MSP are safe.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:09:52 and read 9841 times.

That's not even what we're TALKING about. This about PAST mistakes. Not future. See how hard it is to talk about something you know nothing about?

DL originally had many more 777s on order as part of their plan. They had to cancel them because they pilots would not fly them, which left them short international capacity when the MD-11s were grounded. Before that ATL-CDG, ATL-FRA, and ATL-LGW had 777s on it and the 767-400ERs were only on domestic trips.

The 767-400ERs internationally were their LAST RESORT. Not an INTENTIONAL CHOICE. It was WHAT THEY HAD AVAILABLE.

In the future, the A330-300 will be operating the route, and they have 50 787s available, and the 777-200LR will be used EXCLUSIVELY where it is needed.

I know, blah blah blah you don't need the most capable plane on every route. However, they want a plane MORE CAPABLE than the 767-400ER on MANY of the existing routes for it.

I don't understand why you don't get it. They NEVER BOUGHT this plane for this job.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:18:01 and read 9808 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 299):
That's not even what we're TALKING about. This about PAST mistakes. Not future. See how hard it is to talk about something you know nothing about?

DL originally had many more 777s on order as part of their plan. They had to cancel them because they pilots would not fly them, which left them short international capacity when the MD-11s were grounded. Before that ATL-CDG, ATL-FRA, and ATL-LGW had 777s on it and the 767-400ERs were only on domestic trips.

The 767-400ERs internationally were their LAST RESORT. Not an INTENTIONAL CHOICE. It was WHAT THEY HAD AVAILABLE.

In the future, the A330-300 will be operating the route, and they have 50 787s available, and the 777-200LR will be used EXCLUSIVELY where it is needed.

I know, blah blah blah you don't need the most capable plane on every route. However, they want a plane MORE CAPABLE than the 767-400ER on MANY of the existing routes for it.

I don't understand why you don't get it. They NEVER BOUGHT this plane for this job.

But returning them to domestic routes doesn't solve anything. Delta announced that they will be getting the Thompson Solutions sleeper suites in BusinessElite. So tell me, why would Delta make such a business decision if they will be removed shortly after? Rumors of Delta and Northwest merging have been strong long before Delta made that announcement. It doesn't make any sense to make a business decision without considering the possibility of merging.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:25:53 and read 9773 times.

Certainly. If they don't merge, those planes are all they will be able to afford to continue to fly those routes. They don't have enough on order to replace much. They have to proceed under the assumption the merger will fail to some extent, otherwise when it does, they will be screwed right then and go out of business.

If they DO merge, the plane will be great to right size some Northwest routes that have an A330 that don't need it, and put A330s where they ARE needed but Delta could never afford to move forward. As 787s come online, they will be used to grow smaller markets or markets where cargo is no factor.

The market conditions are different now than in 2000. Putting them back on domestic runs will never be viable. Keeping them on international makes more money. Once they are no longer needed there, or maybe Hawaii, they will be grounded.


It is literally illegal to make business decisions on forward looking situations like mergers. They have to continue to operate business as usual.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:27:56 and read 9770 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 301):

The market conditions are different now than in 2000. Putting them back on domestic runs will never be viable. Keeping them on international makes more money. Once they are no longer needed there, or maybe Hawaii, they will be grounded.

So then, why would Delta dump a fleet of good, fairly new aircraft? I am 100% sure that the 767-400ERs will be the last 767s that are retired.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:36:04 and read 9760 times.

There will be some flying to Hawaii for a looong time to come.... I also believe they will do well on the shorter South America routes where they can get by for the moment while they wait for other airplanes to arrive to offset them.

The 767-300ER will be the last 767 in international service.

NS

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: A342
Posted 2008-04-17 12:39:12 and read 9758 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 300):

Nobody is bashing the 764ER, neither are we defending the A330, because it doesn't need to be defended. Some of us are just pointing out the fact that the A330 is more capable and that DL is interested in this capability. That's it.

Your signature shows us that you really like the 764ER. So do others on here and that's fine. But please give credit where credit is due. The A332 is simply more successful.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-04-17 12:41:31 and read 9750 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 295):
Also, your point for the 777-200ER is also moot, as Delta has converted all 777-200ER orders and options to the 777-200LR.

You just don´t want to understand. The point is that DL before the merger only had a limited number of longhaul aircraft. Their largest being the 777-200 the second largest the 767-400ER. If they had two routes with high demand and only one 777 and one 767-400 to send there they would have send the 777 to the more promising route and the 767 to the less promising route although it could easily handle a 777 as well. Now things have changed as they have more and bigger longhaul aircraft. DL will now look on how they will use their new aircraft and will shift them around in their network.
If DL now sees that they could easily fill the larger A330 on ATL-CDG rather than the 767-400ER they would do it.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:42:56 and read 9741 times.

It they didn't have that plane, or had gotten what they wanted (a way less capable one) they would be out of business right now.

They would have been completely unprepared to compete in the international market as the opportunities arose. They would not have had planes.


You are still missing the point that plane is good enough. They could use more. The SAME applies to the 777-200 in general. The 777-200ER will not just vanish because of the 777-200LR. But the 777-200LR will be put in all the top markets, then the 777-200ERs will go on others, then the 330, and so on.

Right now for Delta, the 767-400ER is IT. That's all they have.

NS

[Edited 2008-04-17 12:46:23]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 12:45:24 and read 9735 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 302):
Nobody is bashing the 764ER, neither are we defending the A330, because it doesn't need to be defended. Some of us are just pointing out the fact that the A330 is more capable and that DL is interested in this capability. That's it.

Says who? I really think that Delta is more interested in the 787s than the A330s. If you read many news articles, most analysts are expecting that the combined airline will likely lean towards Boeing. Nowhere is it stated that Delta will return the 767-400ERs to domestic routes or that Delta will dump the 767-400ERs. By buying out NW, Delta can get their hands on these 787s much more quickly. These articles also state that they will likely excersise NW's additional 50 787 options. I am 100% sure that Delta will retire their oldest 767-300ERs long before they retire the 767-400ERs.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 12:48:33 and read 9720 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 305):
Says who?

Anderson. He specifically said to press repeatedly that the Delta pilots contract was renegotiated so they could get NW's larger planes to JFK and ATL right away.

I mean, come on. Northwest is flying Minneapolis to Paris with 333s while DL flies no planes of that size across the Atlantic at all.

Delta needs bigger planes NOW. That is a driving factor.


Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 305):
Says who? I really think that Delta is more interested in the 787s than the A330s.

DUH.


But the A330 will stay flying international routes long after the 767-400ERs have become aluminum cans.

NS

[Edited 2008-04-17 12:51:26]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: A342
Posted 2008-04-17 13:01:54 and read 9685 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 305):
Nowhere is it stated that Delta will return the 767-400ERs to domestic routes or that Delta will dump the 767-400ERs.

I suggested neither, and I don't think anybody suggested the latter.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 305):
Says who? I really think that Delta is more interested in the 787s than the A330s.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 305):
By buying out NW, Delta can get their hands on these 787s much more quickly.

They may get the hands on them earlier, but that doesn't prevent them from taking advantage of the A330's capabilities now.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-04-17 13:04:47 and read 9673 times.

AND you can't predict the 787 reliably now.

It may NEVER arrive. Unlikely, but they certainly have no idea when.

They

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2008-04-17 13:06:17 and read 9668 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 245):
DL will acquire more, not retire existing MD90s.

Oh, sure. There are only 15 MD90's in DL's fleet.

And just where would they get all these additional MD90s?

Of 116 that were built (including the 2 in China)... 107 are still in active service with airlines. Re the other 9 airframes, some have been parted out, one was a hull loss. Less than a handful might be available from the desert.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 245):
They are very inexpensive on the used market (far cheaper than the A320, used or new) but the MD90 has the same engine and fuel efficiency and can actually carry more passengers.

None are being traded on the used market... the handful not in service are in the desert.

And if they were available... well, duh, of course they would be cheaper than a new/used A320!

And they do not carry the same engine of the NWA A320s.

And they do not "actually carry more passengers" than than the A320...

DL MD90: 12 F & 138 Y
NW A320: 16 F & 132 Y

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 245):
The MD90 will become a larger part of the DL fleet and will likely be used to replace DC9s - but only after the pilot seniority issues are resolved.

Replace DC9s... what are you thinking about.

First you say that the MD90 carry more pax than the A320... and now you say that it is going to replace the much smaller DC9s...

DL MD90: 12 F & 138 Y

NWA DC9-50 16 F & 109 Y ... MD90 is 20% bigger
NWA DC9-40 16 F & 94 Y ... MD90 is 36 % bigger
NWA DC9-30 16F & 84 Y ... MD90 is 50% bigger

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 265):
Today? Nope, no one does, HOWEVER. come back in four years. There should be a few out there offered from all over the world. The direction of the R.J. is .....make it bigger.

Ah... like who in 4 years???  Smile

Quoting 777STL (Reply 269):
I pointed out two instances when he was grossly incorrect, though he himself neglected to mention that. I'm sure I could find many more if I took the time to search, though I honestly don't care enough to do so.

Yes, he is very often incorrect!

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2008-04-17 13:44:40 and read 9571 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 289):
But are 246 passengers and 38 LD2s worth of cargo all that the market wishes to send via DL on those routes?

If it is, then the A330-200 is superfluous because it would not carry any more passengers or cargo then the 767-400ER, resulting in empty seats and LD3 positions.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 292):
Yes, your point is wrong.

Not entirely wrong. This issue is that on shorter international operations the A332 does not have a substantial payload advantage over the B764. There is an advantage in the wider pallets but total space is nearly the same. Obviously past about ~3500nm there is an advantage to the A332. Keep in mind that the new DL will have 21 B764s and 11 A332s, at least initially. So the A332 vs. B764 trade will be based on range. In the larger size the trade will be B77E vs. A333.

Think about it this way, for widebody international using rough seat numbers:

NW
245 seat 6500 nm – A332, 275 seat 4000 nm – A333, 400 seat, 7000 nm B744

DL
215 seat 5500 nm -– B763, 245 seat 4000 nm – B764, 275 seat 7000 nm B77E, 275 seat 8500 nm B77L

Neither is a perfect fit on all of the routes the airline would like to fly. You have 5000 nm missions for DL that could easily carry more than 215, but don't make sense with 275. NW has 3500 nm routes that would do better with less than 275 seats, or 5000 nm routes that would be more profitable with less than 245 seats. On the high end, there are some 6500 nm DL routes that could use more than 300 seats, and vice versa with NW.

ATL-CDG is right now a mix of B763 and B764, my guess is that it will shift to B763/B764 and A333.
JFK-TLV is a B763 it might shift to a A332, while a NW route might jump from and A332 to a B77E
Some DL B772 routes might go B744. Also there are some A333 and A332 routes that NW flies that might move down to B764 and B763. There are also several NW routes for which the B744 is overkill and the A333 does not carry as much as a B77E. Obviously the B77L is a unique bird.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 13:49:07 and read 9551 times.



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 310):
Not entirely wrong. This issue is that on shorter international operations the A332 does not have a substantial payload advantage over the B764. There is an advantage in the wider pallets but total space is nearly the same. Obviously past about ~3500nm there is an advantage to the A332. Keep in mind that the new DL will have 21 B764s and 11 A332s, at least initially. So the A332 vs. B764 trade will be based on range. In the larger size the trade will be B77E vs. A333.

Think about it this way, for widebody international using rough seat numbers:

NW
245 seat 6500 nm – A332, 275 seat 4000 nm – A333, 400 seat, 7000 nm B744

DL
215 seat 5500 nm -– B763, 245 seat 4000 nm – B764, 275 seat 7000 nm B77E, 275 seat 8500 nm B77L

Neither is a perfect fit on all of the routes the airline would like to fly. You have 5000 nm missions for DL that could easily carry more than 215, but don't make sense with 275. NW has 3500 nm routes that would do better with less than 275 seats, or 5000 nm routes that would be more profitable with less than 245 seats. On the high end, there are some 6500 nm DL routes that could use more than 300 seats, and vice versa with NW.

ATL-CDG is right now a mix of B763 and B764, my guess is that it will shift to B763/B764 and A333.
JFK-TLV is a B763 it might shift to a A332, while a NW route might jump from and A332 to a B77E
Some DL B772 routes might go B744. Also there are some A333 and A332 routes that NW flies that might move down to B764 and B763. There are also several NW routes for which the B744 is overkill and the A333 does not carry as much as a B77E. Obviously the B77L is a unique bird.

Thanks for presenting the facts in an unbiased manner.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: SM92
Posted 2008-04-17 13:49:26 and read 9559 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 60):

I think it was mentioned earlier in the posts above but I thought I'd point out a link to an article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...logy/2004351610_deltaboeing16.html

"Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian added Tuesday that the combined company may exercise options for as many as 20 new wide-body jets, including 787s, 777s and 747s."

So 747s might not be out of the question. It seems a little early to speculate too much. Things can change and maybe something like a 773 or A350 makes more sense as things solidify. But it is at least being thought of on some level.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-17 13:54:13 and read 9551 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 253):
you might as well throw CO/UAL in there too for a fair comparison.



But we don’t’ know that will actually happen now do we?

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 265):
While no human being is perfect, WT is most accurate. Drop it & move on.

Thank you.

Some people have the maturity to recognize that other people really may be right…. I never said I was perfect or had a flawless track record…. But obviously neither do any of the leaders in this industry or it wouldn’t be where it is now.

I would suggest that those of you who think they can do a better job than me might ask why YOU are on the board chatting with anyone – teenagers and 60 year olds alike.

quote=Ikramerica,reply=256]But please show me where anyone involved in the merger talked about becoming a major A350 customer?[/quote]

No one said they definitely would. I suggest you study the use of conditional verbs.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 262):
They are literally identical planes, with the A319 offering the best base peformance

No they are not. The 737-700 in its highest performance has much better high/hot/short runway performance than what the 319 can do. DL has long said they are buying the 73G for special operational markets. The 319 is a fine plane but is not operationally the same as a 73G.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 269):
DL CFO Ed Bastian has stated in a video that he would like all 764ERs on international routes

And they will be with the possible exception of ATL and now MSPHNL.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 277):
In addition to the Delta bashing, why is there so much 764ER bashing here?

Because it makes them FEEL better. Facts are immaterial, esp. to people who have no knowledge of how the planes actually perform for CO or DL. There are plenty of people who have repeatedly said there are no operational restrictions on the 764 for the missions they are used on but the negativity persists.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 297):
They NEVER BOUGHT this plane for this job.

But it works just fine, now doesn’t it? That doesn’t make it an inferior airplane.

DL didn’t buy the 772ER with the intention of flying JFKBOM but it did it just fine… and CO continues now and will continue to use it on EWRBOM since they won’t have a plane capable of flying the route year round without restrictions for years.

Tell me, how many passengers is CO getting on their 772ERs departing from BOM and its construction shortened runway? Hint: DL and AI’s 777LRs can carry full loads and cargo.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 306):
Delta needs bigger planes NOW. That is a driving factor.

Yes, this is true. DL already said there will be a major reshuffling of int’l equipment to match supply and demand…. And it will also come with a rework of NW’s int’l network that will move from a hub to hub to a hub to spoke operation; thus existing NW routes will not need to use airplanes that are near as large.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 309):
There are only 15 MD90's in DL's fleet.

16

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 309):
And they do not "actually carry more passengers" than than the A320...

DL MD90: 12 F & 138 Y
NW A320: 16 F & 132 Y

I rest my case. I’m arguing with someone who can’t recognize the greater sum in the two above lines.

And if you’d like to deal with facts, there is a graph in aviation daily yesterday that shows DL’s M90s burn slightly less fuel per hour than NW’s A320s or DL’s MD80s do. The MD90 is similar enough to the MD80 that the pilots – the biggest source of fleet commonality benefits – can fly both types.

DL is the USA’s largest airline MRO by a wide margin. They use their expertise on multiple aircraft and engine types to make money, not incur additional costs for themselves. The diversity of the DL/NW fleet will provide DL with opportunities to increase the range of technical services it sells.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 309):
First you say that the MD90 carry more pax than the A320... and now you say that it is going to replace the much smaller DC9s...

Who said the replacement would be one for one?

And there are plenty of MD90s that are available or likely will be in the next couple years; operators in Japan, China, Taiwan, and Saudi Arabia have all stated intentions to get rid of the plane in the future – and I don’t even keep track of all MD90s that are operating in Europe. DL owns about 10% of all MD90s that were built but the number could be much higher.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-17 14:08:33 and read 9484 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 253):
you might as well throw CO/UAL in there too for a fair comparison.



But we don’t’ know that will actually happen now do we?

To assume it will not is foolish, I'm sure in every business plan DL is preparing for post NWA merger is included the fact that they will be competing against a combined CO/UAL. To assume otherwise would as foolish as thinking we would be welcomed by the people of Iraq with flowers and chocolates instead of AK-47s and IEDs.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-17 14:21:11 and read 9438 times.



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 309):
And they do not "actually carry more passengers" than than the A320...

DL MD90: 12 F & 138 Y
NW A320: 16 F & 132 Y

It may have been awhile since I had a math class but, I could swear that the MD-90 adds up to 150 pax and the A320 to 148.  wink 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-17 14:29:32 and read 9411 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
I would suggest that those of you who think they can do a better job than me might ask why YOU are on the board chatting with anyone – teenagers and 60 year olds alike.

I come on here because I like to argue.  stirthepot 

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-17 14:29:39 and read 9410 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 309):
And they do not "actually carry more passengers" than than the A320...

DL MD90: 12 F & 138 Y
NW A320: 16 F & 132 Y

I rest my case. I’m arguing with someone who can’t recognize the greater sum in the two above lines.

I'm pretty sure if you dropped one row of the first class cabin and added in another row of Y you'd have more seats on the A320. *shurg* If you wanted to reconfigure with smaller first class you could carry the same.

The MD-90 and A320 are essentially the same aircraft in capacity.

But here we are in the weeds.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2008-04-17 15:47:24 and read 9283 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
16

15... the 16th is in storage.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
I’m arguing with someone who can’t recognize the greater sum in the two above lines.

I'm arguing with someone who can't recgonize that configured the same there is virtually no difference between the two aircraft... but is compelled to say that one is LARGER just to try to artificially support a fantasy assertion.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
And if you’d like to deal with facts, there is a graph in aviation daily yesterday that shows DL’s M90s burn slightly less fuel per hour than NW’s A320s or DL’s MD80s do.

And stating the above without context is absolutely meaningless... and you should know that!!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
The MD90 is similar enough to the MD80 that the pilots – the biggest source of fleet commonality benefits – can fly both types.

Irrelevant.

First, there is less commonality between the MD90 & MD80 than there is between NW's A319s & A320s (and the bonus of similarity benefits with A330) or DL's 738s & the 73Gs on order.

Second, there are 57 A319s in service & 5 on order, 73 A320s in service and 2 on order for a total of 137 (plus another 42 on option... and the similarity benefit with the 32 A333s).

Third, there are 71 738s in service and 36 on order, & 10 73Gs on order for a total of 117.

Fourth, MD88 fleet - 112 in service (& 7 in storage) and MD90 - 15 in service (& 1 in storage) for a total of 127 in service... and shrinking.

Obvious conclusion... the MDs are the past... and the 737s and A320s are the future.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
They use their expertise on multiple aircraft and engine types to make money, not incur additional costs for themselves.

Another meaningless post. The 15 MD90 is a stub fleet... incurring higher maintenance costs!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 313):
Who said the replacement would be one for one?

FYI, the DC9s fleet capacity is over 450% greater than the MD90 fleet capacity!! There is no way that DL/NW is going to replace the DC9 fleet on a 4.5 to 1 basis.

From a factual perspective... your assertion that the MD90 is the DC9 replacement is Big grin Big grin !!

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 317):
I'm pretty sure if you dropped one row of the first class cabin and added in another row of Y you'd have more seats on the A320. *shurg* If you wanted to reconfigure with smaller first class you could carry the same.

The MD-90 and A320 are essentially the same aircraft in capacity.

No, you are wrong!  Wink

The MD90 is NOT in the same capacity class as the A320 or 738... it is a DC9 replacement!! And they are going to replace the 753s with A333s.  Wink

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: Cageyjames
Posted 2008-04-17 16:08:04 and read 9242 times.

Hmm, my sarcasm meter was turned off.

Carry on!

[Edited 2008-04-17 16:09:31]

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Rout
Username: Jetlanta
Posted 2008-04-17 17:06:12 and read 9134 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 274):
I agreed with a lot of what he wrote in that post as opinion, but there was some stuff that was pure speculation, and others were suggesting that all if it was gospel and somehow factual, that everything he wrote was coming directly from the offices of DL.

Think about that last line very carefully.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-04-17 17:58:13 and read 9038 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 314):
To assume otherwise would as foolish as thinking we would be welcomed by the people of Iraq with flowers and chocolates instead of AK-47s and IEDs.

unfortunately the media doesn't report that there are indeed everyday people in Iraq who are grateful for Iraq. The MSM also doesn't report that US military personnel spend time building communities with community projects.

Goes to show that regardless of the topic, selective reporting and understanding goes on.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 318):
I'm arguing with someone who can't recgonize that configured the same there is virtually no difference between the two aircraft... but is compelled to say that one is LARGER just to try to artificially support a fantasy assertion.

It is a fact or it is not a fact. You could manipulate the statement to create whatever point you want but the fact is that you said that DL's MD90s hold less than NW's 320s. You were shown to be wrong and you are now trying to defend yourself. Admit you made a simple mistake and move on.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 318):
Obvious conclusion... the MDs are the past... and the 737s and A320s are the future.

if you think they ae gone, then say goodbye. They not only will be flying with Delta for years to come but the fleet will be expanded.

Let me know if you wish to continue in your objections and I'll send you an address where you can send my $100 check in the not too distant future.


Jetlanta,
don't worry. they didn't believe Moses when he returned from on high either.

Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2008-04-17 18:14:19 and read 8984 times.

With the 764ER vs A330 argument aside, here are the cabin improvements I would like to see Delta make on Northwest's fleet:

All types except DC-9:

  • Refurbish all NW aircraft with Delta-style signage and leather seat covers

    A319/A320:
  • Add IFE to all A319 and A320 aircraft. Overhead video would do just fine for most of these aircraft, however, it would be nice if a small subfleet of them get PTVs with AVOD and satellite TV, similarly to the 737-800s.

    A330:
  • Replace NW's lie flat at an angle business class seats with the Thompson Solutions Vantage suites.

    757-200:
  • Add back IFE to domestic 757 fleet. The wiring is still there. New overhead LCDs would be nice.
  • Replace old ceiling panels with new curved ceiling panels like on Delta's Transcon and international ex-TWA ETOPS 757s.
  • On the 5500 series 757s, replace the old PSUs with the more modern aftermarket PSUs found on some of Delta's refurbished 757s.
  • Install overhead bin extensions like on Delta's 757 fleet.
  • On NW's international 757 fleet, install PTVs with AVOD at every seat.

    757-300:
  • Install PTVs with AVOD and satellite TV at every seat.

    747-400:
  • Replace existing economy class seats with Weber slimline seats with winged headrests.
  • Replace lie-flat at an angle business class seats with Contour Premium Solar Suites like on the 777-200LRs.
  • Install PTVs with AVOD at every seat.
  • Install Heath Tecna 747 NuLook package: http://www.heathtecna.com/images/editor/NuLook%20747%20Interior.pdf

  • Topic: RE: Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes
    Username: Moderators
    Posted 2008-04-17 18:14:45 and read 8986 times.

    As this thread has reached 320+ replies, please continue the discussion in the Part 2 therad:

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3943119/


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