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Topic: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Learjet23
Posted 2008-04-23 18:25:42 and read 70091 times.

My neighbour recently lost his wife, and was showing me the bills from the Mortuary.... the statement says his wife was flown via UAL to Chicago. I understood the cargo planes do this kind of thing, certainly not the public aircraft! If I'm wrong I'll never again sleep on a long night flight! Jahesus !! what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue! They must hide this really good, or only do it in the dark of night because I have never seen a coffin being stuffed into a jetliner.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: LawnDart
Posted 2008-04-23 18:27:48 and read 70099 times.

Human remains are shipped on commercial passenger flights all the time...in broad daylight!!!

Sleep tight!

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: OMA2FAI2SAV
Posted 2008-04-23 18:27:18 and read 70101 times.

We regularly took off Human Remains off of Delta aircraft when I worked in SAV. It happens all the time. Not something you usually think about when you are watching your movie huh??

Jason in KBMI

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Cadet57
Posted 2008-04-23 18:30:04 and read 70083 times.



Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
I understood the cargo planes do this kind of thing, certainly not the public aircraft!

No. Regular scheduled flights daily, around the world and across the nation.

Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
If I'm wrong I'll never again sleep on a long night flight! Jahesus !! what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue!

Unfortunately, you are wrong. The deceased are transported all across the country. I deal with them a couple times a month. Either picking up or receiving them. Its not creepy, its just a person, not an alien being.

Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
They must hide this really good, or only do it in the dark of night because I have never seen a coffin being stuffed into a jetliner

Its usually not a coffin, but an air tray:

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: NightFlier
Posted 2008-04-23 18:36:24 and read 70061 times.

Caskets are always put on passenger airplanes. Almost every airline I have dealt with requires the casket be to be with in an airtray. The airtray is always marked with the words HUMAN REMAINS, the persons name, flight number, origin, and destination. Most people are with in caskets, but on a few occasions I have received them in alternate containers. One of the most difficult countries to send a person to is Italy.  Wink

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Cadet57
Posted 2008-04-23 18:38:08 and read 70049 times.



Quoting NightFlier (Reply 4):
One of the most difficult countries to send a person to is Italy

Another funeral director told me that the other day. Why is that?

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2008-04-23 18:41:56 and read 70037 times.



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Its usually not a coffin, but an air tray:

Which, as someone already mentioned, generally has a casket within... although we once received one on a flight I worked in BNA for DL that was just in a body bag inside the tray.

Also, the US military always sends an escort with soldier's remains, so if you ever see a uniformed soldier loitering at the end of the bag belt, that's probably what's on the plane.

But yeah, when I worked the ramp in BNA we got at least one a week on average... had a couple give some guys hernias, too.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: PWM2TXLHopper
Posted 2008-04-23 18:42:20 and read 70030 times.

I use to routinely load HR's on DL fMD-88 flights to ATL and CVG. Wasn't uncommon to get a couple each week. I even accidentally dropped one off of the belt-loader one day and you could hear the body "thud" as it shifted, and all the passengers were watching from inside the aircraft or in the terminal at the gate! So only dropped a dead guy once, but like I said, loading them onto commercial flights was a routine occurrence. When remains would come in on a night flight, we'd offload them into a baggage cart and drive them over to spend the night in the freight warehouse until the morgue could come during business hours the next day.

Until the last year or two, dead soldiers being sent home from abroad were regularly flown in the cargo holds of commercial aircraft. Military honor guard, and an accompanying officer would be on the ramp to pay their respects as a body was loaded off the planes.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-04-23 18:43:45 and read 70015 times.

Do they need to be embalmed before they go? I'd imagine that for some bodies, even a few hours on a hot, humid tarmac would make a mess of them.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: CatIII
Posted 2008-04-23 18:44:05 and read 70016 times.



Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue!

Or, in the case of our fallen men and women in uniform who are coming home from the battlefield, you might instead think it was a comforting thought or an honor to accompany them home to their families. I accompanied a classmate home from al-Udeid, Qatar a few years back after an accident took his life. I didn't find it the least bit "creepy".

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Cadet57
Posted 2008-04-23 18:44:49 and read 70015 times.



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 6):

Correct, I dont know why I said what I did (long day :P) But you are correct. I never understood why the HR must be air trayed AND casketed. I think an airtray would be fine. The casket sure doesnt help with weight...

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: AA61Hvy
Posted 2008-04-23 18:48:46 and read 69988 times.

I know FX will occasionally take a body, but it's not something we advertise...Too much special handling...

FXRamper-is that considered Hazmat?  Wink

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: CatIII
Posted 2008-04-23 18:53:08 and read 69980 times.



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 7):

Correct. They would come home to the U.S., in the case of coming home from Iraq or Afghanistan, through Dover on a C-17 or C-5. From there they would be transported via commercial airlines home to their final resting place. American had even designed a specific conainer for these heroes: http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI57641/

Recent legislation has changed the policy so that fallen U.S. service members are now returned to their families aboard charter jets.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-04-23 18:56:25 and read 69964 times.



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
Human remains are shipped on commercial passenger flights all the time

AMS is one of the few airports with its own mortuary facility. Excerpt below:

Amsterdam Airport Schiphol is one of the few airports which has a fully operational mortuary, capable of handling up to 40 bodies. On average the mortuary deals with approximately 2000 bodies per year, about 60 % of which are in repatriation or transit to foreign places of burial and 40% returning to the Netherlands.


There have been many threads on this subject if you do a search. One fairly recent one:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3763857/

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Cadet57
Posted 2008-04-23 18:58:58 and read 69947 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Amsterdam Airport Schiphol is one of the few airports which has a fully operational mortuary, capable of handling up to 40 bodies.

Wow! That is a huge facility. The largest i've seen can handle 5-6 at once. And to think that it is probly used to that extent rather often.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: B4REAL
Posted 2008-04-23 19:02:04 and read 69939 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Do they need to be embalmed before they go?

Yes.




I've seen the container in the picture from Cadet57's post frequently. And when you see a solider escort there, as said above it is a military casuality. Always a little uncomforting. I one time flew PHL-ATL on DL and a body was loaded in the door right underneath my 1D seat, a little bit of a spooker, but I took a moment to thank the military for my freedom and was glad to be where I was.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: NightFlier
Posted 2008-04-23 19:03:19 and read 69934 times.



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):

Italy has strict guidelines. It also very expensive in regards to what must be done.

The person must be embalmed

The death certificate must be translated to Italian

Their must a be letter from the medical examiner stating that the person has not died of any communicable diseases and that must be translated into Italian.

Person must be with in a sealed casket

A letter must be written by the funeral director describing how the outer container was built, and what it is made of.

There must be an approval from the Italian consulate, and sometimes they will X -Ray the person who has died.

When finished the outer container, the casket, and person who has died can weigh up to 400 lbs.

I believe I got it all, yet their are other documents such as passports, naturalization papers, and many more which are needed. The process can take up to a week sometimes depending what day of the week it is, and if the person dies around a holiday.

 Yeah sure

Peace NF

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-23 19:06:35 and read 69920 times.



Quoting CatIII (Reply 12):
Correct. They would come home to the U.S., in the case of coming home from Iraq or Afghanistan, through Dover on a C-17 or C-5. From there they would be transported via commercial airlines home to their final resting place. American had even designed a specific conainer for these heroes: http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI57641/

Recent legislation has changed the policy so that fallen U.S. service members are now returned to their families aboard charter jets.

They are done via Kalitta Falcon 20 jets from Dover, it's sad looking at the flights on flightaware from Dover to cities big and small all over the country knowing they are brining home a brave American service member who gave their life for their country.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: PWM2TXLHopper
Posted 2008-04-23 19:06:42 and read 69925 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 6):
Also, the US military always sends an escort with soldier's remains, so if you ever see a uniformed soldier loitering at the end of the bag belt, that's probably what's on the plane.


The military has quit sending the HR's of soldiers via commercial airlines. The military now contracts Kalitta Air freight to fly all the HR's from the military mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Delaware to their respective resting places in their home cities. They now have several of their planes temporarily based at DOV for this contract work. They use Dassault Falcon 20's.

Esquire magazine had an great story this month following the process of deceased soldiers being shipped home from abroad. Part of it went into detail about Kalitta's involvement with flying the HR's out of Dover AFB. It can be read at the link below. However, it's a long article with eleven pages. For those who just want to read the part dealing with the Kalitta flying, skip to page five.

I'm not one to get emotional, but it was quite a moving piece if I may say so myself! Worth reading the whole thing!

http://www.esquire.com/features/things-that-carried-him

Quoting CatIII (Reply 12):
Correct. They would come home to the U.S., in the case of coming home from Iraq or Afghanistan, through Dover on a C-17 or C-5.

According to a recent article I read, a bunch are also being flown to Dover on chartered 747 freighters from Ramstein AFB, Germany where they previously arrive on USAF metal. Evergreen Freight is one of the civilian operators I know to be flying 747's into Dover with HR's. I even read they'll occasionally get a 747 arriving into DOV that's only carrying two or three HR's as it's entire payload!

Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
They must hide this really good, or only do it in the dark of night because I have never seen a coffin being stuffed into a jetliner.

Oh, there's all kinds of things flying in the cargo hold under the passengers feet. A lot worse things then a dead body. I know Delta accepts venomous snakes for shipment as DASH air freight. Or how about all the horse, dog, cow, and every other kind of sperm laboratories and breeders ship? I use to load that on to flights as well. Even saw a live Alligator come in on a DL 757 one time! Plenty of hearts, lungs, eyes, and livers being shipped for transplant as well. I even loaded a brain one time going to the CDC in Atlanta for dissection or some other kind of research!

[Edited 2008-04-23 19:38:01]

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: CatIII
Posted 2008-04-23 19:10:38 and read 69895 times.



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 18):

I read that same article. It was very well done.

This is another great article on the history behind the policy change: http://wwww.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070407/news_1n7bodies.html

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Tb727
Posted 2008-04-23 19:27:28 and read 69852 times.



Quoting CatIII (Reply 12):
Recent legislation has changed the policy so that fallen U.S. service members are now returned to their families aboard charter jets.



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 7):
Until the last year or two, dead soldiers being sent home from abroad were regularly flown in the cargo holds of commercial aircraft. Military honor guard, and an accompanying officer would be on the ramp to pay their respects as a body was loaded off the planes.



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 18):
I'm not one to get emotional, but it was quite a moving piece if I may say so myself! Worth reading the whole thing!

http://www.esquire.com/features/thin...d-him

The Esquire article is a very well done article. I've been spreading the word for people to read it. I am one of the KFS pilots doing this flying as some of you may know. I am not the one quoted in the article but I am the one in the picture on the right outside the airplane. It was very well done in my opinion and was very hard for me to read. I just flew my 155th fallen home the other day. After reading the entire article, it was hard to grasp that there are 155 more stories just like that from just guys I have taken home to their families with thousands of lives changed.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):

They are done via Kalitta Falcon 20 jets from Dover, it's sad looking at the flights on flightaware from Dover to cities big and small all over the country knowing they are brining home a brave American service member who gave their life for their country.

If you look below at my signature, it shouldn't be hard to figure out where I have been. We get special priority from all ATC with flights ending in 99. It's quite moving when day after day we get ATC folk wishing for us to pass along their condolences to the families. We have even had a couple ask about the Esquire article, glad people are reading it. Too much election news, not enough real world news right now. Well worth the read.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-04-23 19:45:58 and read 69793 times.



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 20):
If you look below at my signature, it shouldn't be hard to figure out where I have been.

My sincerest thanks and appreciation to the Kalitta and Dover folks who do this job with such respect and dignity, you guys are doing a tough job with the utmost professionalism.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: L-188
Posted 2008-04-23 19:49:13 and read 69783 times.



Quoting NightFlier (Reply 4):
Almost every airline I have dealt with requires the casket be to be with in an airtray. The airtray is always marked with the words HUMAN REMAINS, the persons name, flight number, origin, and destination.

I've done a few with silver bullets, you know those aluminum shipping caskets. But it wasn't a typical situation, usually we where flying people back to town who died to have what needed to be done done.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Do they need to be embalmed before they go? I'd imagine that for some bodies, even a few hours on a hot, humid tarmac would make a mess of them.

That is the usual procedure but like I said we where flying people to town to the funeral home or the state medical examiner office.

One of the worst days I had at work was transporting a person I knew, who had killed himself the day before and his dad to the airport to catch a plane to town to be embalmbed. I had to meet his dad down at the town dock and help his dad and his uncle pull his shipping casket out of the fish hold of the uncles boat and take both him and dad to the airport. Since that fish hold was refridgerated he was frozen by the time we got him out of the boat.

It is a unique experience to fill out a shipping form for somebody you know. I am just glad the cargo lead went ahead and got dad to sign the freight bill and collect the money. I was really nervous about having to do that.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-23 19:55:58 and read 69765 times.



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
The casket sure doesnt help with weight...

With DL it doesn't make any difference as far as the charge goes. They pay a flat fee based on where they are going.

In SLC we had quite a few a day and being a hub, our freight runners would just transfer them from flight to flight if they were going beyond SLC.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Tb727
Posted 2008-04-23 19:55:53 and read 69762 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
My sincerest thanks and appreciation to the Kalitta and Dover folks who do this job with such respect and dignity, you guys are doing a tough job with the utmost professionalism.

Thank you very much, it means a lot. It is an absolute honor for all of us to be able to do this for these guys. I'm definitely doing it for the families, this way is much better and more dignified way than the old way.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: FlyHoss
Posted 2008-04-23 19:58:57 and read 69755 times.



Quoting CatIII (Reply 9):
Or, in the case of our fallen men and women in uniform who are coming home from the battlefield, you might instead think it was a comforting thought or an honor to accompany them home to their families. I accompanied a classmate home from al-Udeid, Qatar a few years back after an accident took his life. I didn't find it the least bit "creepy".

Well said. I always felt honored - and humbled - to be able to carry "Fallen Soldiers" to their home.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 20):
If you look below at my signature, it shouldn't be hard to figure out where I have been. We get special priority from all ATC with flights ending in 99. It's quite moving when day after day we get ATC folk wishing for us to pass along their condolences to the families

I'm pleased (though not surprised) to learn that you're providing such dignity.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2008-04-23 21:14:31 and read 70075 times.

I am trying to recall a very bad situation my dad told me about, Vietnam War era.

Dad was with Trans-Texas Airways (TTa, later Texas International, now Continental) and Braniff sent a box containing casket+human remains to the freight house at Love Field for transport to, I think, Alexandria Louisiana.

There was, at the same time, a Braniff-to-Braniff connection, also a box containing casket+human remains going to Amarillo, Texas.

Somehow, during the process, Braniff managed to mix the two boxes up and apparently the paperwork got switched around....because the end result was the casket headed to Amarillo went to Louisiana and the casket that was supposed to go to Central Louisiana ended up in the Texas Panhandle.

One of them had already had the funeral service and burial over and done with when, at the other end, somebody felt absolutely compelled to view the remains and was quite shocked when the corpse they expected to see turned out to be a stranger.

It was a very ugly situation and was only resolved when the body which had already been buried was exhumed and the remains switched so that they were both in the correct place.

Please forgive me if I have confused the locations a bit....we are talking about an event from 40 yrs ago. However, my dad is in his 80s and he still shudders when he thinks about that event.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: DALMD88
Posted 2008-04-23 21:16:19 and read 70051 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
They are done via Kalitta Falcon 20 jets from Dover, it's sad looking at the flights on flightaware from Dover to cities big and small all over the country knowing they are brining home a brave American service member who gave their life for their country

Warning, this is a political rant. I wish these flights could come to an end. I'm glad the military has gone to these charter flights. I'm a line mechanic for DL on third shift. At my station we don't always meet every terminating flight. If they don't request a mechanic we get to it when we can. Some nights I might only have the one plane and I'm there when they begin the off load. Before they changed the policy I saw a few military officers waiting at the belt loader. Everyone around the plane knows why the officer was there. No one said anything, but everyone would stop until the remains of the fallen soldiers were offloaded and left the ramp.

Everytime I saw this play out I thought it wasn't good enough for these soldiers or for their families. We all payed our respects to the fallen but it is better for the family in a private hangar. The next step is to bring them home walking off a plane.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2008-04-23 21:39:44 and read 70030 times.



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 18):
Oh, there's all kinds of things flying in the cargo hold under the passengers feet. A lot worse things then a dead body. I know Delta accepts venomous snakes for shipment as DASH air freight. Or how about all the horse, dog, cow, and every other kind of sperm laboratories and breeders ship? I use to load that on to flights as well. Even saw a live Alligator come in on a DL 757 one time! Plenty of hearts, lungs, eyes, and livers being shipped for transplant as well. I even loaded a brain one time going to the CDC in Atlanta for dissection or some other kind of research!

I once worked an MD-88 where the front bin was infested with crickets.

And then there's the mail loads of live chicks... one time some idiot in ATL loaded some luggage in the bin too close to the live animal boxes and one of the bags fell on one of the boxes of those... luckily all the cute little chickens survived that.

Turtles, Mice, medicines. Ramp workers see it all.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-04-23 21:43:34 and read 70013 times.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
It is a unique experience to fill out a shipping form for somebody you know. I am just glad the cargo lead went ahead and got dad to sign the freight bill and collect the money. I was really nervous about having to do that.

In my job, "I know this patient and don't feel comfortable treating them" is considered a "no-questions-asked" excuse to not do a given job.

I'm upset that you couldn't have begged out of this duty given the circumstances.

But that sounds just awful.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: GARUDAROD
Posted 2008-04-23 21:45:57 and read 69996 times.



Quoting NightFlier (Reply 16):


Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):


Italy has strict guidelines. It also very expensive in regards to what must be done.

The person must be embalmed

The death certificate must be translated to Italian

Their must a be letter from the medical examiner stating that the person has not died of any communicable diseases and that must be translated into Italian.

Person must be with in a sealed casket

A letter must be written by the funeral director describing how the outer container was built, and what it is made of.

There must be an approval from the Italian consulate, and sometimes they will X -Ray the person who has died.

When finished the outer container, the casket, and person who has died can weigh up to 400 lbs.

I believe I got it all, yet their are other documents such as passports, naturalization papers, and many more which are needed. The process can take up to a week sometimes depending what day of the week it is, and if the person dies around a holiday.

Almost the exact same regulations for Indonesia as well except the sealed metal coffin must be placed in
a solid wooden outer crating. Very heavy to move.

Most unusal H/R I ever witnessed was one that came back from Fiji. Was a typical wooden crate
with a piece of cardboard on it. Upon looking under the cardboard to see if it was designated as the
"head" for loading purposes, saw the actual remains staring back at me through a window in
the box.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: JetJeanes
Posted 2008-04-23 21:47:11 and read 70013 times.

Just be careful with a forklift around them..I saw this year ago at nwa, I dont think Dhl,fedex or ups take any human remains unless its an urn from what i recall, But i have had diamonds, paintings, and gold but it was rare and would have to have the capt sign off on them and if he could get it in the cockpit he would,as he assumed responsibility,

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2008-04-23 22:10:17 and read 69955 times.



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 28):
I once worked an MD-88 where the front bin was infested with crickets.

I didn't realize that the New York area was such a consumer of live crickets; in the suburbs, there seem to be plenty of them chirping away in the woods every night! Nevertheless, on at least five DL flights that I have taken in the last couple of years between ATL and LGA, I have looked out the window to see gigantic cubes of freight made up entirely of unusually-manufactured boxes labelled "LIVE CRICKETS". So I think I know where they came from on your MD88. They were escaped live cargo.

By all accounts, the KFS guys have given those families who were upset by the previous procedure exactly what they and their representatives in Congress had hoped for. My own feeling is that sending the body of a fallen soldier on a commericial flight, provided that it is accompanied by an appropriate military escort, is dignified and acceptable. However, because of that military protocol, it certainly can involve other citizens in the event whom the airlines and elected officials might prefer not to involve -- like the family of 4 flying to Disney World wherein the parents have to explain to the children what they are seeing. Personally, I don't think that taking a moment to honor the sacrifice of a soldier is an inconvenience that anyone should shy away from, but I know that others have different views, so, on balance, the delegation of the responsibility to KFS makes a lot of sense to a lot of people. Thank goodness we don't have to hear from the "carbon footprint" crowd about the inefficiency of chartering an airplane exclusively to transport a fallen soldier.

Human remains are compassionately shipped around the country every day on the airlines, with DL and AA being carriers who go undertake substantial outreach to the funeral director community and go out of their way to provide a quality service. A 1988 WSJ article used the number of about 50,000 per year. As mentioned, AA and DL use a zone pricing system that eliminates the need to worry about 5 pounds here or 10 pounds there. AA calls their service the "Jim Wilson Desk", in part so the funeral director can call and simply ask for Jim Wilson or the Jim Wilson Desk in the presence of family members to make the arrangements. At AA at least, the term also is used by those staff who know about it to refer to the actual remains being shipped, so that one might say in public that there is "a Jim Wilson on this flight" without alerting passengers or others to the reality of what is being communicated.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: N766UA
Posted 2008-04-23 22:28:23 and read 69926 times.

We had at least one HR every day when I used to work at DAL, and we were an outstation. We used to have to climb all around them in the tiny MD bins, trying to fit mail and luggage on the sides. In fact, I can think of quite a few times when I slept on, near, or against a box in the bin in between bag loads.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Someone83
Posted 2008-04-23 22:51:15 and read 69897 times.



Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
I'll never again sleep on a long night flight! Jahesus !! what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue!

Why? Did you think that some magic force could bring the person back to life or the dead person starting walking around in the airplane?

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: DALMD88
Posted 2008-04-23 23:09:32 and read 69859 times.

I don't think the change in policy came about form the family for four going to Disney. It might have been if every captain held the policy of the fallen are the first off the plane. Some I hear enforced this. IMHO this was the best policy. It pays respect and reminds us what is happening out of out little lives. I wish ALPA had made this a strong suggestion a few years ago. If they had maybe less would be coming home in this manner.

The policy change was for the families that had to meet their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers remains in a cargo warehouse. These families deserve much more than even the current policy of a Falcon pulling into a private hangar.

I lived in the south for quite a few years. When I first moved to Georgia I found the practice of pulling over when a funeral passed by as odd. But as time went by the practice seemed justified. I don't care if the person in the hearse is a ditch digger or the mayor. Another human has passed on. Shhow some compassion for his family, or if their isn't any just morn the passing of one like you.

I wish we could shut down the entire airport when one of the fallen come home. Think of the effect to honor these folk that nothing on the airside should move until they are landed, offloaded, and are off the airport grounds. I think the family of four going to Disney could suffer this and explain it to the kids. If they can't they live in the wrong country. If they are uncomfortable with bodies inconveniening them and are unwilling to stand up to stop it they are really in the wrong country.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: N27UADIESEL8
Posted 2008-04-23 23:24:20 and read 69825 times.



Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 11):



Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 11):
I know FX will occasionally take a body, but it's not something we advertise...Too much special handling...

FXRamper-is that considered Hazmat?

Hi AA61Hvy:

Human remains are not hazmat but they have to flight with all the papers that are needed to wherever country they are being sent to.

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 31):
dont think Dhl,fedex or ups take any human remains

JetJeanes:

We at DHL we accept human remains for transport.

Happy Flying

N27UADIESEL8

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: L-188
Posted 2008-04-24 00:09:03 and read 69760 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
I'm upset that you couldn't have begged out of this duty given the circumstances

Don't be.

There where about five of us at this station and I wasn't the last person in line.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2008-04-24 00:10:35 and read 69756 times.

Well I think it's been clearly pointed out that HRs fly under passengers all the time, so I'm not here to answer the original post, just give some my thoughts about HRs.

As I am a ramp agent at DAB, I deal with at least one HR a day. Some days we can have up to 4-5 total off and on during our 4 flights. In fact, HRs are the biggest cargo item for DAB. And there are certain periods where theres more then usual. For example, if anyone remembers Daytona bike week this year (and every year), there were multiple bike accidents and deaths. Every time I heard a new accident on the news, the next 2 days or so we'd see 2-3 HRs go out. And you can tell they did not plan on passing in Daytona as they are smaller and lighter boxes, meaning it's just a body and no casket. Sad.

A specific HR I remember from only a few weeks ago...it was our first inbound overnight and we checked the load when the plane left ATL. It said there was cargo in one of the front bins, only 50 lbs, but in the remarks section, it said it was an HR. We immediately knew it was a kid. But then just before it landed, we were informed that it was actually the son of one of our local police officers, and he was only 22 months old. They had the hearse come out on the ramp (which is not usually done), as well as a police escort. It was a very sad scene.

Handling HRs is something that's a bit weird at first, but you get used to it. It's kind of sad sometimes, but I think it's good that we're able to provide this service for the family. I take great care when handling HRs and hope that all other ramp agents do the same.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2008-04-24 00:26:04 and read 69726 times.

Nothing creepy about it. Death is a natural part of the lifecycle. We're all going to be dead at some point. Not like the body is suddenly going to reanimate and even if it did there is no way to get up to the pax cabin from the cargo hold so you can rest easy there will be no Zombies on a plane episode.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-04-24 00:43:46 and read 69697 times.



Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
My neighbour recently lost his wife, and was showing me the bills from the Mortuary.... the statement says his wife was flown via UAL to Chicago. I understood the cargo planes do this kind of thing, certainly not the public aircraft! If I'm wrong I'll never again sleep on a long night flight! Jahesus !! what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue! They must hide this really good, or only do it in the dark of night because I have never seen a coffin being stuffed into a jetliner.

In the business, and out of respect, it's called human remains.

It's VERY common for HR's to fly commercial and its actually not that expensive. Working in a hub, you will see at least one a day. On some days, we would have two on one MD88. No, it's not done secretly. If you see it you see it, if you don't you don't.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Rampguy
Posted 2008-04-24 01:49:53 and read 69626 times.

Last week onboard Delta flight # 962/ ATL-IND, there was a military human remains of a soldier that had died, get this, December 31, 1953 in Vietnam. The body was taken to HNL where it was shipped on Delta to IND. This person recieved full military honors upon arrival in IND. You couldn't help but pause for a moment as the casket was lifted out of the airtray, which was still on the beltloader, and ever so gently put into the hearse right there on the ramp. Imagine this person had died 54 years ago and just now was found to be returned to his family and to have a proper burial.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2008-04-24 01:53:52 and read 69607 times.



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
Quoting NightFlier (Reply 4):
One of the most difficult countries to send a person to is Italy

Another funeral director told me that the other day. Why is that?



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Do they need to be embalmed before they go? I'd imagine that for some bodies, even a few hours on a hot, humid tarmac would make a mess of them.

Definite requirement for Internation repatriation; not always for domestic.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
Correct, I dont know why I said what I did (long day :P) But you are correct. I never understood why the HR must be air trayed AND casketed. I think an airtray would be fine. The casket sure doesnt help with weight...

Definitely need a coffin/casket inside the airtray, unless you are a risk taker

Quoting NightFlier (Reply 16):
Italy has strict guidelines. It also very expensive in regards to what must be done.

The person must be embalmed

The death certificate must be translated to Italian

Their must a be letter from the medical examiner stating that the person has not died of any communicable diseases and that must be translated into Italian.

Person must be with in a sealed casket

A letter must be written by the funeral director describing how the outer container was built, and what it is made of.

There must be an approval from the Italian consulate, and sometimes they will X -Ray the person who has died.

When finished the outer container, the casket, and person who has died can weigh up to 400 lbs.

I believe I got it all, yet their are other documents such as passports, naturalization papers, and many more which are needed. The process can take up to a week sometimes depending what day of the week it is, and if the person dies around a holiday.

Also need an FFI certificate which states that their are no epedemics in the area where the deceased died.

These are all standard requirements for any Country. The added difficulty with Italy, is that the coffin has to be officially sealed by the Consulate staff; thus the coffin needs to be taken to a Funeral Directors very near the consulate, in order for this to be done.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2008-04-24 03:54:55 and read 69465 times.

The use of commercial flights for the transport of HR's is probably the best and in most cases the only practical way to do so. We don't have passenger train services where bodies can be transported within North America and ships are not a viable method for trans-ocean travel. Yes, death is a difficult and emotional issue for many, but it is a reality and transport by pax a/c when done properly shouldn't be looked upon negatively.

I assume that the changes in airlines in the last several years has probably made it more difficult to use pax airline flights to transport HR's. The use of smaller a/c to many airports, the rise in hubs requiring the transfer of HR's from a/c to a/c, the pressure for quicker turnarounds of a/c, the rise of discount airlines that don't carry HR's, the difficulty and additional work needed vs non-HR cargo, post-9/11 security needs, rising fuel costs and the weight of HR's have all been factors. Probably the rise of some of those factors is why Military HR's from Dover AFB has been transferred to charter a/c, to minimise handling issues and serve smaller airports easier and directly with fewer delays as well as the dignity and respect factors.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2008-04-24 04:21:04 and read 69434 times.

Here in the US, human remains are also transferred in "Combo-Paks" that do not include a casket or coffin. The remains are usually dressed in undergarments, a hospital gown, wrapped in a sheet or any combination of the three.
From the outside they look very similar to an "Air-Tray", but do not have the plywood "tray" on the bottom to hold a casket.
On the inside the "Combo-Pak" has a heavy plastic sheet that is spread out over the whole container prior to placing the remains inside. The remains are placed into the container, there is a foam "head block" to help hold the head in an elevated position. There are nylon tie straps at the shoulders, hips and ankles. Once all is in place the plastic sheet is wrapped shut and folded nicely across the top of the remains. The lid is then placed on the container and more nylon straps hold the lid on.

Remains shipped within the US may actually be shipped without embalming and are packed in dry-ice instead. This is done all the time where religious obligations apply, but is not the normal method of shipping so only a small percentage are actually shipped unembalmed.

BTW, embalming standards can vary. I've recieved many remains, over the years, that were not in very good condition. Usually due to hurried embalming, poor quality chemicals, an inept or exhausted embalmer, or combination of all those reasons.However, IMO, (generally speaking), embalming in the US,Canada, Australia and Great Britain are much better than elsewhere on the planet.

 twocents 

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: YWG747
Posted 2008-04-24 04:47:54 and read 69387 times.

Last I heard, bodies get flown on passenger flights all the time.
I buddy of my was a baggage handler and he had to but a few caskets on commerical flights.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: CosmicCruiser
Posted 2008-04-24 05:06:31 and read 69348 times.

Many years ago I used to pick up bodies in a Cessna 206. The hearse would bring them to the airplane, transfer them to a stretcher, no casket, in the airplane and away I would go. The very first time I had to insist the funeral home give me one of their sheets because I didn't realize I was suppose to bring my own. Most of the time I did this I was solo. Once at night in some ugly weather I had to really not let myself get spooked. I don't know if it's still done this way any more.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2008-04-24 05:38:23 and read 69269 times.

Continental has a special desk Airline Mortuary Service to book and track all HR shipments system wide...protocal on the ramp and cargo is that HR's are not to have anything stacked on top of them, are to be loaded separately in carts or ULD's...Jewish remains are to be shipped the same day in accordance with the Jewish burial tradition. Two of the worst ones I ever experienced was a co worker who's mpther died and we were returning her remains to SAP, very tough and also the remains of Miss Iceland who was killed in an accident in PHX a few years ago, we had to transfer the remains to FI, and the UN Consulate of Iceland was there the escort the body back to REK. It was a rather big event there.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-24 05:58:53 and read 69218 times.



Quoting CatIII (Reply 12):
Recent legislation has changed the policy so that fallen U.S. service members are now returned to their families aboard charter jets.

Kalitta has brought fallen soldiers to ROC to Lears from DOV in the recent past.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: B6MoneyGuyJFK
Posted 2008-04-24 06:40:09 and read 69151 times.

I've actually read an article about the mortuary shipper getting miles or vouchers for every x number of shipments of remains made on one airline or another. They called it the "Frequent Dyer Program"


Heres the link:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05137/506135.stm

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-24 07:08:16 and read 69097 times.



Quoting B6MoneyGuyJFK (Reply 49):

From the article:

"Delta Air Lines

Funeral directors can accrue miles by charging shipments to their American Express SkyMiles cards."


This must be something new. In the recent past, funeral homes had a DL cargo account number and as far as I know, it was not tied into the FF program.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Speedbird2263
Posted 2008-04-24 07:08:03 and read 69038 times.



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 46):
Once at night in some ugly weather I had to really not let myself get spooked. I don't know if it's still done this way any more.

You are a very brave man my friend. That's spacial disorientation 2.0  boxedin 

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: NYC2TLV
Posted 2008-04-24 07:41:02 and read 68986 times.

El Al Israel Airlines has a policy of using its flights from JFK to TLV for transporting the deceased to Israel. But it strictly adheres to a policy of not doing this on their flights from EWR to TLV so that passengers who are of Cohen descent as special rules apply to them in Judaism, including contact with the deceased.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-24 08:14:28 and read 68935 times.

True story. When I worked DL cargo at ORD, not long after I hired on in '71, we had a very strange occurence one night.
When we came into work, there was a casket in a CMAS pack in the corner. CMAS packs were made of vinyl coated, canvas and were padded on the inside. This was the predecessor of the airtray. Nobody knew anything about this particular casket. It was empty, tho.

About halfway thru the shift, while we were all busy, a hearse backed up to the gate outside, opened the back door and pulled out a gurney with a body on it. They wheeled it into the warehouse, right by the empty casket, opened the casket and placed the body inside, closed it up and left. We were all kind of dumfounded and didn't say anything. This was Chicago, after all. A short time later, a funeral home called us and told us that one of his colleagues was going to use the casket for shipping. Would have been nice if he had called, FIRST.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2008-04-24 08:53:29 and read 68862 times.



Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 11):
FXRamper-is that considered Hazmat?

HR is not HAZMAT or DG it is Must Ride though

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2008-04-24 09:10:07 and read 68838 times.



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
Definitely need a coffin/casket inside the airtray, unless you are a risk taker

Not really....

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
Here in the US, human remains are also transferred in "Combo-Paks" that do not include a casket or coffin. The remains are usually dressed in undergarments, a hospital gown, wrapped in a sheet or any combination of the three.
From the outside they look very similar to an "Air-Tray", but do not have the plywood "tray" on the bottom to hold a casket.
On the inside the "Combo-Pak" has a heavy plastic sheet that is spread out over the whole container prior to placing the remains inside. The remains are placed into the container, there is a foam "head block" to help hold the head in an elevated position. There are nylon tie straps at the shoulders, hips and ankles. Once all is in place the plastic sheet is wrapped shut and folded nicely across the top of the remains. The lid is then placed on the container and more nylon straps hold the lid on.

And I'll add a personally story to this....I was in the bin and I had just finished moving an HR onto the belt loader to off load it. I noticed that the end of the box wasn't in the best shape, and you could actually push the whole end in, as it was sort of hinged on the top edge. The supervisor was right there so I pointed it out to him. He comes over and pushes on the 'flap' and I saw right into it. No casket, no wooden box. I could clearly see his head, and the basket he was wrapped in. It was a kid too, so I was in an iffy mood the rest of the night. I don't know how those people at the morgues handle it all the time. I guess it's something they just get used to.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: EXMEMWIDGET
Posted 2008-04-24 09:22:08 and read 68809 times.

Back in my Delta days, it was always fun trying to get an HR in or out of a DC-9. The shipping trays usually were not very bad because of the reduced weight and size, but the caskets could be a beast!! The very last HR that II unloaded at Delta came in at 716 lbs. It was also coming off a DC-9. By the time we got if off the plane, the cardboard cover and wooden base were completely torn off. The only think left was a pinkish bronze casket.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2008-04-24 09:34:38 and read 68761 times.



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 55):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
Definitely need a coffin/casket inside the airtray, unless you are a risk taker

Not really....

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
Here in the US, human remains are also transferred in "Combo-Paks" that do not include a casket or coffin. The remains are usually dressed in undergarments, a hospital gown, wrapped in a sheet or any combination of the three.
From the outside they look very similar to an "Air-Tray", but do not have the plywood "tray" on the bottom to hold a casket.
On the inside the "Combo-Pak" has a heavy plastic sheet that is spread out over the whole container prior to placing the remains inside. The remains are placed into the container, there is a foam "head block" to help hold the head in an elevated position. There are nylon tie straps at the shoulders, hips and ankles. Once all is in place the plastic sheet is wrapped shut and folded nicely across the top of the remains. The lid is then placed on the container and more nylon straps hold the lid on.

And I'll add a personally story to this....I was in the bin and I had just finished moving an HR onto the belt loader to off load it. I noticed that the end of the box wasn't in the best shape, and you could actually push the whole end in, as it was sort of hinged on the top edge. The supervisor was right there so I pointed it out to him. He comes over and pushes on the 'flap' and I saw right into it. No casket, no wooden box. I could clearly see his head, and the basket he was wrapped in. It was a kid too, so I was in an iffy mood the rest of the night. I don't know how those people at the morgues handle it all the time. I guess it's something they just get used to.

Exactly Its my personal reputation on the line, and the future of my business. No proper coffin, no repatriation by my company

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Tb727
Posted 2008-04-24 09:40:04 and read 68747 times.



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 48):
Lears from DOV

They are Dassault Falcon 20's. The Lears are too small.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: AS777
Posted 2008-04-24 09:55:33 and read 68732 times.

Up here in Alaska, things are done differently. I have a few buddies that work in AS and Penair Cargo. HR from the "bush" is transported in metal containers. If the person passes in the "bush" they have to fly them into ANC in one of these containers in order for the body to be embalmed and prepared for burial. I have been over there a couple times(part of my job as I am one of their biggest customers) and have seen these metal containers lying around. The HR obviously doesnt go back out in one of those. But I have never seen one on its way back out.

About a month ago, I was trying to get backhaul from DUT-ANC, and it was right after a fishing vessel went down. My stuff sat out in DUT for a week because they were trying to move the guys that went down with the boat. Penair only flies Saab 340's(for passenger service) and Metro's(cargo) to DUT. With passenger loads etc.....it took them a week to move everything. Of course the HR was must rides...but they had to bump bags for them, so it took forever for them to catch up. That was a sad week.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-24 10:07:25 and read 68690 times.



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 58):
They are Dassault Falcon 20's. The Lears are too small.

I stand corrected.. we had a couple over the winter come in here  Sad

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Tb727
Posted 2008-04-24 12:00:32 and read 68380 times.



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 60):
I stand corrected.. we had a couple over the winter come in here

Oh it's ok, we just like to stay separated from "those Lear guys" lol. We love our Falcons.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Av8rdal
Posted 2008-04-24 12:48:53 and read 67962 times.



Quoting NightFlier (Reply 16):
The process can take up to a week sometimes depending what day of the week it is, and if the person dies around a holiday.

And if Italy is on holiday, you can go ahead and push back that burial from July until September !  Wink

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-24 12:54:00 and read 67899 times.



Quoting Av8rdal (Reply 62):
Quoting NightFlier (Reply 16):
The process can take up to a week sometimes depending what day of the week it is, and if the person dies around a holiday.

And if Italy is on holiday, you can go ahead and push back that burial from July until September !

And if it's connecting thru ATL, it may take that long, anyway!  duck   wink 

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-04-24 12:56:44 and read 67880 times.



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 6):
Also, the US military always sends an escort with soldier's remains, so if you ever see a uniformed soldier loitering at the end of the bag belt, that's probably what's on the plane.

Things must have changed since I was in, then again, I was in back in the early '90's. The only "military" escort I saw with human remains was the deceased's working dog. Actually, the dog was "retired" from service previously and bacame the serviceman's pet (or for you PETA guys, animal gaurdian). The sailor was flown from PIK to MHZ, with his dog. Had a layover at MHZ to wait for transport back to the States (CHS) and from there wherever. I worked ops that night, but no one else wanted to deal with the dog. I took care of the dog, walked him, fed him, tried to pick up chicks in the pax terminal with him (that didn't work too well). The dog was transported in a mobile carrier, but someone had to let him out and the Navy guys didn't want to do it. I was lucky enough to walk the dog onto the 141 and put him in his pre-loaded kennel. That 141 was a regular channel mission back to CHS so there were Space A's on board. They had to share their space with a flag draped transfer case and as much cargo as we could safely load plan. Except for the dog, flying human remains is pretty common. If we can help it, we'd put the transfer case behind the pax, but by MAC regs in front of the cargo. If any of ya'll have worked MAC it's a slightly different world when you put space A's on a military transport as opposed to a CRAF flight. The worst thing to deal with are infant cots, but we really don't want to go there.

As far as being on a MAC or AMC flight, the flight crew are all military, so I guess you can say there is a uniformed military escort.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-04-24 13:24:21 and read 67691 times.



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 6):
Which, as someone already mentioned, generally has a casket within... although we once received one on a flight I worked in BNA for DL that was just in a body bag inside the tray.

I hate to sound crytpic and have a back to back deal on this subject. That's how we transported bodies in military transfer cases. It works really well. We keep the bodies in their transfer cases in the reefer at our aerial ports and we have mortuary personnel check the cases when they are there and litterally ensure they are kept on ice. No one actually sees the bodies as they are in a dark brown body bag.

The weirdest thing I saw was a retired RAF guy maried to a retired USAF chick in the states. He was to be buried in England. I was at MHZ at the time so of course he was on one of our channel missions from CHS. He was actually in a pine box with cardboard over it. They at least had a 463L pallet as a good base and we was well strapped down to it. I'm not sure this was the right thing to do, but they had loaded him aft of the cargo, but at least in front of the baggage pallet on the ramp. At the time I couldn't find any regs regarding foreign nationals (military or otherwise) flying on MAC, so I can't say anyone did anything wrong except for human desency, by putting him in the back. Ol' boy had quite a bit of rank back in the day and the RAF paid for it, and his USAF ol' lady pushed for it, what are you going to do? If it were me in CHS I would have referred them to a civilian airline and tried the military benefits there. But then again, CHS was a bit hard to get out of and his family was pretty much in a hurry to get him in the ground. I just hope he had full honors. She flew commercial ahead of him and met the body at MHZ and was waiting in the freight terminal to make sure we were doing the right thing. She had the hearse ready too. Now that I think about it, it really worked out well.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Brianhames
Posted 2008-04-24 14:18:14 and read 67366 times.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Boacvc10
Posted 2008-04-24 14:19:29 and read 67319 times.



Quoting Learjet23 (Thread starter):
Jahesus !! what a creepy thought, sitting just a few feet from a morgue! They must hide this really good, or only do it in the dark of night because I have never seen a coffin being stuffed into a jetliner.

I am impressed by the sensitivity of the posters in this thread, hats off to you all with respect and prayers for the departed who have to be shipped home via aircraft if they are unfortunately away from their preferred domicile.

Did the answers and comments satisfy the curiosity of the original poster Learjet23 ?

BOACVC10

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Flyboy36y
Posted 2008-04-24 15:08:23 and read 67023 times.

They carry dead people all the time, in the passenger cabin, no less. They dress 'em up as flight attendants so that nobody will notice.

Ok, the above was a joke. The following is not:

People die, it is a part of life.

Something has to be done with the remains. Why would DHL or FedEx or any airline refuse to carry a body? Why would any passenger care? You are more likely to have a problem with living people on the place than the dead ones.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Xtoler
Posted 2008-04-24 15:15:19 and read 66971 times.

Yeah, I think so. It's sort of hard when you have to deal with it on a failry normal basis. For all the mortuary affairs guys, especially all the military guys serving downrange and recieving bases, man, ya'll put up with a lot more than I could comprehend and anyone of us on here. The only way I've been able to deal with it is finding some sort of humor in it. By humor I don't mean any sick crap by desicating bodies doing wierd stuff. Loss is really a hard subject to breech. As far as I can see this is a male dominated, a lot of military veterans on this site. We don't like to see lifeless bodies. Also as far as us military veterans, we really don't want to take a life. Back in MAC, if all of my cargo was just simply that and mail, I would be happy. We never like to see human remains, be it a retiree in Germany going to Arlington Cemeterary, to a troop who committs suicide, to an accident vicitm, or even worse a kid who dies from a disease or get's hit by a drunk driver coming from one of the clubs on base. 99.999% don't get off on that crap! But it happens and we have to deal with it and it somehow comes down to logistics as I used to have to fly the bodies out, retype the death certicates, make sure customs has the right paperwork. That's the least of my problems. Luckily I've never had to go to the door of a family and confront them, but I have had to do it over the phone to get the correct information to send the remains, god forbid if they didn't know. Here's another thing too, it's not just because a war people die either or old age. It sucks when people ask you that and you aren't the ME and all you can give them is a preliminary of what the death certificate says. It's one part of ATOC I didn't want to share. It wasn't really my job to explain stuff like that to family members, but there are a lot savvy family members out there (prior military) they know to call, and I'm not going to bull around with them. With better automation now, it's out of the hands of people after me, because that's just something we don't need to know. With the old EARLO system we had, we had to retype the certificates so it would be cool to transport HR's to their destinations.

My wife was USAF services and she dealt with cooks, billiting, and moruary affairs. I'd insert an off color joke here, but USAF chow ain't that bad, but I was on seperate rations because of my shift even though I was a single airman at the time. Lucklily she never had to deal with mortuary affairs, but to deal with the living people in that job. There's never a good way to deal with a death. No pun intended but I think this thread should be put to rest, until someone starts another.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: FalconBird
Posted 2008-04-24 16:02:38 and read 66689 times.

Airlines have been shipping bodies for many, many years, and probably will for some time to come. This is nothing new.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Jayspilot
Posted 2008-04-24 16:37:48 and read 66536 times.

I have see human remains of snow birds are off loaded from Delta's nonstop flights from TPA, FLL, PBI, and MCO to BDL on a regular basis all winter long. Unforunatly a lot of snow birds go to Florida for the winter and pass away. Their famlies in CT need to get their bodies home so they are shipped in the cargo bins. My experience is that the caskets normally go into the forward bin and on light load flights this prevents them from filling up first class b/c the cg ends up being to far forward.
The only funny thing about this is I've seen a lot of pissed off platinum members on empty flights go balistic until they get told the truth by the captain why they can't get first class. I have never seen a complaing passenger stop talking so quick and take their coach seat before.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-24 17:30:35 and read 66310 times.

Thanks for the link to the Esquire article,fascinating and very moving.....

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: QFYVR
Posted 2008-04-24 18:02:39 and read 66169 times.

Here at YVR philippines airlines moves many bodies back to the MNL for burial they are often strapped to pallets or pallet stacks. In the spring it picks up to nearly one a week.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Luv2cattlecall
Posted 2008-04-24 18:30:23 and read 66052 times.



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 38):
A specific HR I remember from only a few weeks ago...it was our first inbound overnight and we checked the load when the plane left ATL. It said there was cargo in one of the front bins, only 50 lbs, but in the remarks section, it said it was an HR. We immediately knew it was a kid. But then just before it landed, we were informed that it was actually the son of one of our local police officers, and he was only 22 months old. They had the hearse come out on the ramp (which is not usually done), as well as a police escort. It was a very sad scene.

You wouldn't happen to know if the officer lives in Port Orange, would you? If so, he's my neighbor - the poor kid had a heart condition.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: NightFlier
Posted 2008-04-24 18:39:22 and read 66035 times.



Quoting Av8rdal (Reply 62):


Or if they go on strike. I once waited 3 weeks to send someone to Italy because Alitalia went on strike. Try explaining that one to a family.  banghead 

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2008-04-24 21:38:05 and read 65946 times.



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 74):
You wouldn't happen to know if the officer lives in Port Orange, would you? If so, he's my neighbor - the poor kid had a heart condition.

I believe so.  candle 

Quoting NightFlier (Reply 75):
Or if they go on strike. I once waited 3 weeks to send someone to Italy because Alitalia went on strike. Try explaining that one to a family.

I would have imagined that either the airline, of even the person/place sending it would rearrange to have it shipped on another airline.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-04-24 22:50:03 and read 65915 times.



Quoting Brianhames (Reply 66):

Wow. I always choke a bit when I see this shot.

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 64):
As far as being on a MAC or AMC flight, the flight crew are all military, so I guess you can say there is a uniformed military escort.

Most AMC flights are operated by charter companies...flight crew are private citizens.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-25 04:46:48 and read 65824 times.

I have also read that one of the reasons DL uses mainline into DAB is HR's....I also think everyone should read that Esquire article.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Fleet Service
Posted 2008-04-25 06:16:48 and read 65786 times.

I remember when I worked at JFK the SJU and SDQ flights were always transporting remains back to native soil for interment. It was always an adventure getting getting those air trays up the belt and into the bulk on the A300.It wasn't uncommon to handle 4-5 remains during a week.

At LGA though, we hardly see any,and those we do are arriving not departing.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-25 06:36:16 and read 65761 times.

I found this a while back,too...

http://www.customairtrays.com/

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Gulfstream650
Posted 2008-04-25 07:52:43 and read 65721 times.

Why would someone want to walk around wearing this:

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-25 07:57:36 and read 65702 times.



Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 81):
http://www.customairtrays.com/

Kind of reminds me of an episode of WKRP in Cincinnati back in the 70's. They were trying to get a new account from a funeral home. One of the funeral home's selling points was "drive thru" service.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2008-04-25 08:33:49 and read 65674 times.

http://video.aol.com/partner/hulu/wk...k/Bqmolje-iycGtebqHjT3HNgw3zTzLQMo

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-04-25 08:52:24 and read 65661 times.

Sick story, but about 20/30 years ago my mom was working a flight. She found out about a TWA flight that had this sorta problem.


A older couple had been on vacation and the wife dies. So the man stuffed her in a BIG suitcase bag and took her on the plane. The FAs got real fishy when he would check the bad like every 15 mins. So they took a peak in to see the women dead in th bag.

I guess the plane had to be quarantined for a while till everyone/body was checked out.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: ExFATboy
Posted 2008-04-25 09:14:47 and read 65624 times.



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 32):
My own feeling is that sending the body of a fallen soldier on a commericial flight, provided that it is accompanied by an appropriate military escort, is dignified and acceptable.

I agree in theory, the problem was the inconsistency of handling. The dedicated service used now ensures that our soldiers are treated with dignity and respect every time.

I've been on a few flights over the years where, on landing, the captain requested that everyone remain seated until the uniformed escort left the plane and the casket was unloaded. Only times I've ever seen a captain's request like that meet with zero complaints and 100% compliance, as compared to when they request everyone not rushing to make a connection remain seated...that usually turns into a farce.

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 71):
The only funny thing about this is I've seen a lot of pissed off platinum members on empty flights go balistic until they get told the truth by the captain why they can't get first class. I have never seen a complaing passenger stop talking so quick and take their coach seat before.

I've never seen that, but on a couple of occasions I've seen first class passengers offer the military escort their F/C seats. Never been in a position to do that myself, unfortunately, was in coach on those flights.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: United_Fan
Posted 2008-04-25 10:20:00 and read 65571 times.



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 85):
I agree in theory, the problem was the inconsistency of handling. The dedicated service used now ensures that our soldiers are treated with dignity and respect every time.

Exactly,for someone who gave the hightest of sacrifices,its the least the government can do..

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: GARUDAROD
Posted 2008-04-25 11:22:31 and read 65525 times.



Quoting QFYVR (Reply 73):
Here at YVR philippines airlines moves many bodies back to the MNL for burial they are often strapped to pallets or pallet stacks. In the spring it picks up to nearly one a week.

My experience with PR at LAX is that there are H/R's on almost every flight, sometimes two
or three on the aircraft

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2008-04-25 12:21:48 and read 65479 times.



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 78):
I have also read that one of the reasons DL uses mainline into DAB is HR's....I also think everyone should read that Esquire article.

Never thought about that, but I'd believe it. We've never gone to all RJs, and even this summer we have all RJs except one 88 turn-around and one 88 RON.

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-04-25 16:33:27 and read 65402 times.

Transporting human remains is easier once they become skeletons.
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article...?in_article_id=117854&in_page_id=2

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: Learjet23
Posted 2008-04-25 16:36:30 and read 65395 times.

Uh, excuse me... but does Greyhound take visa? This is some very grotesque chit! What if some ragged boney hand comes up from the casket hold while you are on the tolet, and GRABS onto your nutz!!

Topic: RE: Flying Dead People, Cargo Planes Only?
Username: TIMEAIR
Posted 2008-04-25 16:44:15 and read 65377 times.

Alot of mention about Boeing, MD and Airbus, and few RJ comments, however, where I am we see an average of 2-3 a week in summer season using our DH8 aircraft. The dash is a marvelous aircraft for repatriating those whom have passed away while away from their domicile. They generally operate into smaller bases and can generally provide 1 stop service to get them home to their loved ones.


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