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Topic: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-06-03 18:13:59 and read 23757 times.

Didn't know the groundings were to include 744s, then again, I may have simply stopped paying attention. The 744s are a surprise given UA's focus on international routes, the fact that most flights to/from the West Coast and SYD/MEL are full year round, and that UA is running thin on some of its long haul flights.

The linked article also suggests that UA will seek to drop some domestic nonstops and will instead feed more connections through hubs to make up for the lack of 737s.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...603ual-plane-story,0,4018539.story

Given UA's situation, can anyone provide some insight into the following:

- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle and does this move smell of desperation?
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?
- Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?
- Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?


777fan

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jawake
Posted 2008-06-03 18:14:52 and read 23743 times.

I can't say I am surprised, but the 747s, that will be tricky. That is a lot of parked aircraft. Wow

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-06-03 18:18:02 and read 23697 times.

I do not foresee UAL ordering or acquiring any additional aircraft in the near future, this is the beginning of a long and painful process that many airlines are going through. I do think that a CO/UAL codeshare is in the works, which will help both carriers. The codeshare also creates the ground would for a possibly future merger of CO/UAL, however UAL has a long way to go to fix their current situation.

A step in the right direction right now for UAL is to get smaller and leaner, fast!. Cut out the point to point stuff and fall back on fortress hubs.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2008-06-03 18:26:07 and read 23468 times.

It's post "Sept. 11 like" cutbacks again...sad but true this is perhaps the worst crisis facing US Majors after Sept. 11. What a pity...

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-06-03 18:28:31 and read 23388 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
Cut out the point to point stuff and fall back on fortress hubs.

Does UA really offer a lot of P2P though? I think most of its domestic route structure is routed through the hubs as it is.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jawake
Posted 2008-06-03 18:28:06 and read 23325 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle and does this move smell of desperation?
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?
- Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?
- Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?

I think the CO codeshare is close to being done. The TED Aircraft we will see, there are rumors afoot that TED is about to be dismantled.

The real question is what routes, destinations are about to loose UA Service. You can't take nearly 100 aircraft out of circulation and still be flying everywhere all the time. Either a major reduction on flights, or and destinations will be loss.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UniTED
Posted 2008-06-03 18:32:34 and read 23259 times.

everyone is probably wondering how the 744s can be cut, with such an important focus being on int'l destinations... i think i can see how...

apparently (from what i have heard) the tag flights within Asia are relatively low-yielding. I have been on several between SGN-HKG-SIN-NRT-BKK, etc.. and they are mostly relatively empty up front. cutting these routes (or a few of them) will eliminate some 744 usage while keeping longhaul nonstops to the USA from foreign points. I think ANA, SQ, TG will be able to cover the potential loss of these tag flights without too much difficulty. I think would be very sad to see these routes go, but in my opinion, they will be the first to see the ax.  Sad

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-06-03 18:40:26 and read 22984 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.

From the likes of it NO. My thoughts are that their would be no more adding of new a/cs nor used ones.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?

Most likely given that they are motballing their 737 fleet and would need to move some A320 where due.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?

Again not at this moment, UA would most likely be converting their TED Airbuses.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?

COuld very well be, UA needs what CO has to offer.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2008-06-03 18:39:01 and read 22985 times.

I wonder how many 744s will be parked, and if they will ever return to service with UA.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2008-06-03 18:43:08 and read 22912 times.

Here's a question..

could UA and CO be looking to start a whole new alliance? They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WESTERN737800
Posted 2008-06-03 18:44:28 and read 22850 times.

Sad news for UA. I really like the looks of the 733 in the new UA paint. I wonder how many routes will be cut. Are there any RJs on the way to take some slack? Has anyone heard how many 744s will go away.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-06-03 18:47:06 and read 22740 times.

Well I certainly won't miss the ex-SHT (SHuTtle) 737s...

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PanAm330
Posted 2008-06-03 19:01:38 and read 22350 times.



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
I wonder how many 744s will be parked, and if they will ever return to service with UA.

Once they're parked, I highly doubt it.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2008-06-03 19:33:59 and read 21527 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):


They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?

CO was not a founding member of Skyteam, if they ally themselves with UA, it's off to Star for CO.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-06-03 19:40:22 and read 21421 times.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.

Why? When UA can buy/buys new planes again..... the 767 is prolly the first out of the fleet along w/ some very old A320s. If they get the 787/777LR. If they get the A380(Yuk) the 744 is out.


I knew the 747 parking was coming........ After LAX-HKG was canceled and IAD-PEK is going to a 777, I was holding out hope of new routes. But Alas......

This is going to be weird, I always took flying on the 733 for granted and now after September, I may not have the chance to anymore

[Edited 2008-06-03 19:49:50]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-06-03 19:43:46 and read 21345 times.



Quoting UniTED (Reply 6):
apparently (from what i have heard) the tag flights within Asia are relatively low-yielding. I have been on several between SGN-HKG-SIN-NRT-BKK, etc.. and they are mostly relatively empty up front. cutting these routes (or a few of them) will eliminate some 744 usage while keeping longhaul nonstops to the USA from foreign points.

A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money, though, since the aircraft would otherwise sit in HKG or NRT all day. Throw in some cargo and you don't need great loads or yields to make money.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Sunstar
Posted 2008-06-03 19:51:19 and read 21248 times.

So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: SYfan100
Posted 2008-06-03 20:01:54 and read 21094 times.

It's always sad when something happens like this.
However I am going to need to agree with the move on benching the Boeing 737-300s and 500s because now your domestic fleet is more simple with two different types of aircraft compared to three or four.
With the Boeing 747-400 I can understand with fuel and if infact some of those Asia routes are suffering passenger wise. However you bettter have enough Boeing 777-200ERs in your fleet to cover those routes with all the planes you grounded and at least a couple for back up if one goes down.
Before doing something like grounding aircraft. You need to look at the whole picture first. Not the short picture that has the sheet of paper that tells you how much money you will save bye grounding so many aircraft.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UnitedSuperDC8
Posted 2008-06-03 20:00:42 and read 21093 times.



Quoting Sunstar (Reply 16):
So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

Why don't we wait until the official news is out before we speculate what will happen? United will probably have a press release very soon. Obviously there will be a reduction in force in all work groups. Let's wait and see how UA will manage the overages. Hopefully some voluntary packages will be offered to mitigate involuntary furloughs. However, most have been through this at least once. Fasten your seatbelts!

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Imapilotaz
Posted 2008-06-03 20:02:44 and read 21064 times.



Quoting Sunstar (Reply 16):
So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

Furlough notices I would imagine. 96 aircraft at 5 sets of crew per aircraft (2 pilot, 3 FA per crew) is roughly 960 pilots and 1440 Flight Attendants. Figure a loss of at least 20% of your corporate group as well, as this will be hacking out 20% of their fleet.

These cuts are deeper and more painful than thought.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: FreequentFlier
Posted 2008-06-03 20:06:06 and read 21040 times.



Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 18):
Why don't we wait until the official news is out before we speculate what will happen? United will probably have a press release very soon. Obviously there will be a reduction in force in all work groups. Let's wait and see how UA will manage the overages. Hopefully some voluntary packages will be offered to mitigate involuntary furloughs. However, most have been through this at least once. Fasten your seatbelts!

Anyone know if NW is finally going to ground all their DC-9s? It seems astounding to me that they still plan to fly some with oil prices at these levels. Has there been a change in strategy regarding the DC-9s I'm not aware of or are they going to keep some in the fleet still?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: RDUDDJI
Posted 2008-06-03 20:06:59 and read 21011 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money, though, since the aircraft would otherwise sit in HKG or NRT all day. Throw in some cargo and you don't need great loads or yields to make money.

Yep. And some of those tags operate with high load factors, like NRT-BKK (usually overbooked, but not the highest yielding). UA's strategy just less than 2 years ago was to expand the U.S. to Asia non-stops using 744/772 and fill some of the intra-Asia flights with 763's. I guess we'll never see that now. In fact, I'd expect to see some marginal cities cut both domestically and internationally. It's a no-brainer domestically with a quarter or so of their fleet being parked.

Sad stuff. We're witnessing history everyday as the World's largest airlines announce cut after cut.

Someone needs to invent a solar powered pax airplane  Smile

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2008-06-03 20:16:44 and read 20856 times.

Apparently, the official word is coming tomorrow and its going to be ugly, real ugly.

70+ planes to be grounded
significant furlough

United is burning through cash at a horrendous pace and needs to take drastic action ASAP.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planespotting
Posted 2008-06-03 20:19:57 and read 20826 times.

So how hard is it going to be for commuting pilots getting to base?

American's taking out 12%, United's getting rid of nearly 100 737s ... what kind of capacity situation is that going to leave all the commuters who depend on empty seats to get from home to domicile?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Whappeh
Posted 2008-06-03 20:26:09 and read 20735 times.

What are the odds of Furloughs coming in the future?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ANstar
Posted 2008-06-03 20:25:33 and read 20735 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
the fact that most flights to/from the West Coast and SYD/MEL

Perhaps they may drop these services in favour of codesharing with V Australia?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AirCop
Posted 2008-06-03 20:39:07 and read 22747 times.



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 23):
So how hard is it going to be for commuting pilots getting to base?

American's taking out 12%, United's getting rid of nearly 100 737s ... what kind of capacity situation is that going to leave all the commuters who depend on empty seats to get from home to domicile?

Somehow, I doubt this is a concern of any airline management. I just feel sorry for the junior crew members that will be out on the street.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DC8FanJet
Posted 2008-06-03 20:42:52 and read 22707 times.



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 14):
Why? When UA can buy/buys new planes again..... the 767 is prolly the first out of the fleet along w/ some very old A320s. If they get the 787/777LR. If they get the A380(Yuk) the 744 is out.

UA doesn't have any "very old A320's", they're all fairly new.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planespotting
Posted 2008-06-03 20:44:21 and read 22660 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 26):
Somehow, I doubt this is a concern of any airline management. I just feel sorry for the junior crew members that will be out on the street.

Obviously this is not the concern - I wasn't saying it was.

But really, it's a pretty crummy unintended consequence ...

Unless, that is, the airlines outprice the average consumer and make it so only the rich and business traveler can afford to fly. Then they're running half full.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2008-06-03 20:47:42 and read 22641 times.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 20):
Anyone know if NW is finally going to ground all their DC-9s? It seems astounding to me that they still plan to fly some with oil prices at these levels. Has there been a change in strategy regarding the DC-9s I'm not aware of or are they going to keep some in the fleet still?

I have four NW flights scheduled in August. As of today, three of them will be on DC-9-30s, the oldest variant. I expect them to remain in service until the end of the year, maybe longer if there is an unforeseen merger holdup. Either way, get on them while you can!

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Glbltrvlr
Posted 2008-06-03 20:49:54 and read 22643 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
The 744s are a surprise given UA's focus on international routes, the fact that most flights to/from the West Coast and SYD/MEL are full year round, and that UA is running thin on some of its long haul flights.

I know someone else here stated that that the UA 744s are fine, but in light of the dispatch reliability (or lack thereof) I've personally experienced, I'm thinking it's not just fuel efficiency they're looking at

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Zone1
Posted 2008-06-03 20:51:52 and read 22558 times.



Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 21):
In fact, I'd expect to see some marginal cities cut both domestically and internationally.

Domestically the cuts are already being placed in the books. I can see more cities only connected to only one UA hub instead of 2 or 3+. I don't know what they would cut internationally. I have been checking to see if any new international flights have been cut today, but nothing so far.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Philly65
Posted 2008-06-03 21:00:31 and read 22665 times.



Quoting UniTED (Reply 6):
everyone is probably wondering how the 744s can be cut, with such an important focus being on int'l destinations... i think i can see how...

The 744s are fuel hogs. 7 B744s is equal to 2 Asian trips and 1 European r/trip. The B744 flying LAX-HKG (2 airplanes) will be shifted to LAX-NRT. So, what routes will suffer? I hear the focus will be on IAD, ORD & SFO. I bet LAX-SYD is axed, and shifted to SFO double daily.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AirCop
Posted 2008-06-03 21:04:22 and read 22390 times.



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 28):
But really, it's a pretty crummy unintended consequence ...

I agree, but it's today's world.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 28):
Unless, that is, the airlines outprice the average consumer and make it so only the rich and business traveler can afford to fly. Then they're running half full.

The old rule of thumb back in the days (1970's) the airlines really didn't want a load factor above 67%, as they felt service would suffer.

Just a question; can UA's 777's make Oz from the west coast non-stop?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2008-06-03 21:38:54 and read 22026 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 33):
The old rule of thumb back in the days (1970's) the airlines really didn't want a load factor above 67%, as they felt service would suffer.

Life in Y is a whole lot more pleasant with those middle seats empty.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Egcarter
Posted 2008-06-03 21:50:20 and read 21936 times.

According to Reuters, UA will park 6 744's.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2008-06-04 00:56:01 and read 21065 times.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 20):
Anyone know if NW is finally going to ground all their DC-9s?

All of them? No-at least not yet. They have been planning to park some this fall (35 IIRC), and may add to that number.

Quote:
It seems astounding to me that they still plan to fly some with oil prices at these levels. Has there been a change in strategy regarding the DC-9s I'm not aware of or are they going to keep some in the fleet still?

Well, they're paid for, so even at $135+ bbl., there's a flexibility there.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ANstar
Posted 2008-06-04 01:07:02 and read 21050 times.



Quoting Egcarter (Reply 35):
According to Reuters, UA will park 6 744's.

They have 30 in service currently?

What routes currently have 744 flying?

I presume routes like MEL- SYD-LAX would require 2 aircraft and SYD-SFO would also require 2?

Would be interesting to see the current routes to se ewhare the cuts may be

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: NA
Posted 2008-06-04 01:44:18 and read 20830 times.

If UA could operate the 744 full they´be as economical as 772s. So why don´t they park 777 "A"s as in 2002? Frequency cuts would help. Now the US frequency frenzy of recent years (which I also thought to be crazy) takes its toll. Too many jets, too many small ones in particular. How many 733s are we talking about?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-06-04 02:16:31 and read 20508 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 26):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 23):
So how hard is it going to be for commuting pilots getting to base?

American's taking out 12%, United's getting rid of nearly 100 737s ... what kind of capacity situation is that going to leave all the commuters who depend on empty seats to get from home to domicile?


Somehow, I doubt this is a concern of any airline management.

It's definitely not now, but it might start to be when pilots just can't get to base for their trips. I would hope that they might help with relocation costs, but that isn't all that likely.

-Mir

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2008-06-04 02:23:48 and read 20631 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle

For a long haul, a B744 burns about 50,000# in the first hour (climbing to cruise), and can average around 20,000# per hour at M0.84.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2008-06-04 02:38:05 and read 20421 times.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
could UA and CO be looking to start a whole new alliance? They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?

CO founded a total of damn all. If UA and CO started a new alliance, who would their international partners be?

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 14):
Why? When UA can buy/buys new planes again..... the 767 is prolly the first out of the fleet along w/ some very old A320s. If they get the 787/777LR. If they get the A380(Yuk) the 744 is out.

Yea, they will definitely replace A320s with 787s.  Yeah sure My major interest is what is going to happen to the RJs? They cant cull those easily, unless they are a function of mainline flying? Maybe the RJs could be taken out of the hubs to offer P2P service at a higher yield from a number of smaller 'bases' or 'focus cities' like FR and U2 do in europe. All the crews return home every night, as do the aircraft.

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 32):
The 744s are fuel hogs.

Not appreciably more than the 777s on a per seat basis, if you can fill them. Which UA can not, at least at a decent yield.

Brian.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Zkpilot
Posted 2008-06-04 03:17:54 and read 20230 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 40):
Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle

For a long haul, a B744 burns about 50,000# in the first hour (climbing to cruise), and can average around 20,000# per hour at M0.84.

whoa! I almost choked when I first saw that then figured you of course meant lbs rather than kgs! That still seems a relatively high figure... I figure it more like 48,000lbs for takeoff/climbout + 1 hour flying. That of course providing reduced thrust t/o and unrestricted climbout (which there generally isn't much traffic between LAX and SYD).

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2008-06-04 03:25:33 and read 20172 times.

Harsh enviroment calls for harsh decisions, this is not just a UA thing. Will be interesting which International routes will be cut as a result of the 747's being parked.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Christao17
Posted 2008-06-04 04:26:36 and read 19826 times.



Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 17):
Before doing something like grounding aircraft. You need to look at the whole picture first. Not the short picture that has the sheet of paper that tells you how much money you will save bye grounding so many aircraft.

I'd imagine they've looked at the whole picture very carefully. This isn't a rash decision.

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 32):
I bet LAX-SYD is axed, and shifted to SFO double daily.

Really? That seems like quite a retreat.

Quoting UniTED (Reply 6):
I think ANA, SQ, TG will be able to cover the potential loss of these tag flights without too much difficulty

NH and TG, maybe, but UA does not have code shares with SQ.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2008-06-04 04:58:51 and read 19609 times.

I dont see LAX-SYD being ditched. That would seem like one of the last to go IMHO.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2008-06-04 05:12:31 and read 19525 times.

I find it difficult to believe what I am hearing, parking 6 744. If United stops flying to China, Hong Kong and Australia then park them all but to rely only on 777 doesn't sound good to me for an Asia - Pacific fleet. UA's 777-200ER have only 90,000 lbs. Pratt engines, not the more pwerful RR or GE used by AA & Contiental. No one has yet to operate nonstop from LAX to HKG or SYD with a Pratt powered 777ER.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-04 05:33:25 and read 19485 times.

Its official all 94 737s and 6 744s will be parked....80 by year end 08 rest by 09

1400-1600 jobs including the (500 already announced) (salaried and management)

North American Capacity to be cut by 14% in 08 and 11% in 09 total of 17%

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/04/news...nited/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

Oh and Ted is reintegrated back into mainline.

[Edited 2008-06-04 05:44:11]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: JohnClipper
Posted 2008-06-04 05:45:09 and read 19102 times.

Also announced that Ted is DEAD.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Apodino
Posted 2008-06-04 05:53:17 and read 18948 times.

But yet Express capacity increases again? RJ's don't make sense at 120 dollar oil, so how is dumping capacity onto money losing RJs going to help anything? I agree that the 737's need to go, but adding Express capacity when it is a cause of the lot of the financial problems to me makes absolutely no sense.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: CFMitch56
Posted 2008-06-04 05:59:58 and read 18815 times.

Are the 737 pilots the lowest on the seniority ladder? I recall they were actually training new Airbus pilots within the past year or so. Does UA still have a lot of (expensive) old-timer pilots and FAs or have they all retired or been bought out in bankruptcy?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-06-04 06:04:14 and read 18701 times.

100 frames going down by 2009 shud mean 1,000 pilots and 2,000 inflt....very roughly.....and not taking in account retirements and leaves....suspect those furlough numbers could be mostly ALPA and AFA then but it is still short using the normal 6-7 crewmembers per position per frame...  Confused  Confused ... I also think this is Tague's plan to succeed or fail....and that there are going to be rearrangement of the deck chairs at the downtown building as he takes the reins.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: VX4Ever
Posted 2008-06-04 06:09:20 and read 18534 times.

R.I.P TED I will miss those awsome colors flying over my house hear at ONT.  tombstone 

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2008-06-04 06:10:55 and read 18597 times.



Quoting Apodino (Reply 49):
But yet Express capacity increases again? RJ's don't make sense at 120 dollar oil, so how is dumping capacity onto money losing RJs going to help anything? I agree that the 737's need to go, but adding Express capacity when it is a cause of the lot of the financial problems to me makes absolutely no sense.

The white elephant. All this means is that United management still is absolutely clueless about running an efficient operation.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2008-06-04 06:15:24 and read 18485 times.



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle and does this move smell of desperation?

Maybe this can give an idea about fuelconsumption for the 744s.
According to LH's sustainability report 2007, LH's planes has following fuel consuption, measured as litres per 100 passenger kilometers.

B747-400 4.31
A340-600 3.99
A330-300 4.03

For the coming VLA fleet, LH has following projections.

B748i 3.50
A388 3.40

Please note that this is with LHs configuration.

I dont have data for the Boeing 777.
Would be interesting to see how much fuel UA's 777-200ER burns.
Can someone provide?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: NA
Posted 2008-06-04 06:25:26 and read 18248 times.

I´m sure freight operators will queue for those 744s if parking is not just a temporary measure of a few months.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Joeljack
Posted 2008-06-04 06:36:01 and read 18080 times.

So are these cuts temporary? If fuel comes back down to reasonable levels of $80-$90 a barrel, united proved that they made money the summer of 2007 at these prices. Will they bring the planes back? Buy new planes fast? If they don't, their Frequent Flyers will leave them in search for an airline with a better route network.

I say this cause I fly United 1-2 times a month and 95% of the time, I'm happy with them but would switch if they don't provide the flexibility that I need.

By the way, I bought 4 tickets in the past Month from OMA to LAS, GRR, EWR and LAN for travel July-Sept. They were all between $215 and $250...and you wonder why they are losing money...these are cheaper then they were 2-3 years ago!

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AndyinPIT
Posted 2008-06-04 06:46:17 and read 17872 times.

Also announced that they are cutting management jobs somewhere in the tune of 1200, versus the 500 previously announced

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: NA
Posted 2008-06-04 06:47:49 and read 17876 times.



Quoting Joeljack (Reply 56):
will leave them in search for an airline with a better route network.

Others are cutting frequency too. Only less frequency, and therefore less competition, will bring prices up, the only way to survive for most airlines. High frequency and flexibility costs more money and consumes more fuel in the end. Everybody has to accept that. Its either your pocket or your planning which has to adapt.

Maybe fuel prices may drop to 90 $ again, maybe, and then only temporary for a rather short time. Surely in a not too distant future we have to live with 200$ though.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Drerx7
Posted 2008-06-04 06:53:07 and read 17796 times.

So the end result of this is that the Ted 320s and more RJs will replace the 73s? Hmm...those RJs are going to be costly.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ARGinLON
Posted 2008-06-04 06:56:13 and read 17718 times.



Quoting Joeljack (Reply 56):
By the way, I bought 4 tickets in the past Month from OMA to LAS, GRR, EWR and LAN for travel July-Sept. They were all between $215 and $250...and you wonder why they are losing money...these are cheaper then they were 2-3 years ago!

Because they were probably empty. That's why. With oil in the 80's it may be OK to sell at such prices but with oil at over $120 is a different story. Once the ASM start going away the lowest fare availability will be more difficult to find.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2008-06-04 07:15:12 and read 17501 times.

I understand that in general four engined planes burn less fuel than two engine planes of the same size.

But considering all costs (capital, cockpit crew, cabin crew, is a Fully LOADED 747-400 so much more expensive to operate than a fully loaded 777 20ER -per passenger mile?

I assume it is considering UAL is parking 747's but I'm sure someone on the board can give me some details

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-06-04 07:19:59 and read 17456 times.



Quoting Joeljack (Reply 56):
So are these cuts temporary? If fuel comes back down to reasonable levels of $80-$90 a barrel

Here's a quote from GM's CEO yesterday regarding the impact of rising fuel prices on the US Auto industry which is being hurt as much if not more than the airlines.

Quote:
"We at GM don't think this is a spike or temporary shift," Chief Executive Rick Wagoner said. "We believe that it is, by and large, permanent."

These changes are for the long haul, unfortunately.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AirCop
Posted 2008-06-04 07:21:59 and read 17392 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 46):
I find it difficult to believe what I am hearing, parking 6 744.

Again I am clueless just like UA's management, but I would guess the 744's involved fly SFO-LHR/FRA and the FRA/IAD routes.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-06-04 07:33:34 and read 17249 times.



Quoting Joeljack (Reply 56):
So are these cuts temporary? If fuel comes back down to reasonable levels of $80-$90 a barrel, united proved that they made money the summer of 2007 at these prices. Will they bring the planes back? Buy new planes fast? If they don't, their Frequent Flyers will leave them in search for an airline with a better route network.

I doubt all of them will be back given the number of planes being retired...

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 61):
I understand that in general four engined planes burn less fuel than two engine planes of the same size.

Where did you get that from?

Quoting VX4Ever (Reply 52):
R.I.P TED I will miss those awsome colors

I agree.... Sad

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Joeljack
Posted 2008-06-04 07:39:06 and read 17023 times.

The more I think about this, the more I think the high fuel prices are just an excuse for United to get leaner making them more appealing to sell the company.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ramprat74
Posted 2008-06-04 07:44:16 and read 16958 times.

United Streamlines Operations to Compete in
Unprecedented Fuel Environment
----------------------------------------------------
Today we announced significant fleet, capacity and
executive changes that will enable us to build a
stronger, more competitive business that is better
able to withstand record oil prices and a softening
economy.

Fleet Reductions

We will remove a total of 100 aircraft from our
fleet beginning in September and reduce our mainline
domestic capacity in the fourth quarter 2008 by 14
percent year over year. The reduction eliminates our
Boeing 737 fleet, including the 30 previously
announced B737 aircraft, provided we can work out
terms with our lessors. We also will retire six
Boeing 747s. Over 2008-2009, we will reduce
cumulative mainline domestic capacity between 17 and
18 percent and cumulative consolidated capacity
between 9 and 10 percent.

"We are taking additional, aggressive steps that
demonstrate our commitment to size our business
appropriately to reflect the current market reality,
leverage capacity discipline to pass commodity costs
on to customers, develop new revenue streams and
continue to reduce non-fuel costs and capital
expenditures," said Glenn Tilton, chairman,
president and CEO. "This environment demands that we
and the industry act decisively and responsibly. We
continue to do the right work to reduce costs and
increase revenue to respond to record fuel costs and
the challenging economic environment."

When complete, our fleet reduction will retire our
oldest and least fuel-efficient jets and will lower
our average fleet age to 11.8 years. Schedule
changes related to the elimination of 30 B737s
previously announced are currently in our
reservations system.

We will file further changes related to the
retirement of an additional 50 aircraft by year end
in our systems in the near future. Schedule
reductions will be primarily reached through
frequency reductions while retaining commitment to
all five of our U.S. hubs. We expect to remove about
80 planes from the system by the end of 2008, with
the remaining 20 being removed by the end of 2009.

As part of these changes, we will eliminate our Ted
product and reconfigure that fleets 56 A320s to
include United First class seats. The Ted aircraft
reconfiguration will begin in spring 2009 and be
completed by year-end 2009.

"The decision to dramatically reduce our capacity
profile particularly in the domestic marketplace,
while also eliminating a fleet type, is a
significant step leading to a more effective and
efficient operating fleet for us in the years ahead,
while improving our customer experience and
reliability," said John Tague, executive vice
president and chief operating officer.

Staffing Changes

As we reduce the size of our operation, we also
expect to reduce the number of salaried and
management employees by 1,400-1,600, including the
previously announced 500 employee reduction by year
end. Work is currently under way in each division to
determine critical priorities and necessary SAM
reductions. As we finalize schedules, we will
identify the reductions necessary on the front line
and communicate those as they are available.

To drive improved performance and a focus on the
basics of industry-leading safety, reliability and
the cleanliness and condition of our fleet, Joe
Kolshak was named senior vice president-Operations,
overseeing United Services, Flight Operations and
Operations Control. Kolshak previously served as
Deltas executive vice president of operations,
responsible for Deltas maintenance, flight
operations, ground operations, operations control,
safety and security, as well as the Delta Express
operation. He will be based in San Francisco and
will report to Tague.

"Joe brings a depth and breadth of experience to
United and will enable us to accelerate our work to
improve customer service and operational performance
with the goal to be the industry leader in the
U.S.," Tague said. "We are committed to building a
leadership team with the capability and
accountability to drive performance improvements at
our airline."

In addition, Alex Marren has been promoted to senior
vice president-Onboard Service. She is now
responsible for the full range of work within the
division, including worldwide flight attendant
operations, catering, crew accommodations and flight
attendant scheduling.

Cindy Szadokierski, who has been responsible for
Operations Control, United Express and Ted, will now
be our vice president-United Express and Airport
Operations Planning, reporting to Scott Dolan,
senior vice president-Airport Operations, Cargo and
United Express.

As part of the reorganization, Sean Donohue, our
senior vice president-Flight Operations and Onboard
Service, and Bill Norman, senior vice president-
United Services, will both be leaving United after
long careers and dedicated service to the company.

"We thank Bill and Sean for their many contributions
during their long and successful careers with United
and wish them well in their future endeavors," Tague
said.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: SkyTeamTriStar
Posted 2008-06-04 08:10:32 and read 16488 times.

During the time that UA was in BK, could they've overhauled the company just a wee-bit more than just slap a new paint job on their planes? DL is just one example of fine-tuning a company.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2008-06-04 08:16:08 and read 16371 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money,

Only? You're talking about the two costlier items in their operating budget. High fuel costs and high labor costs are the reason why UA and other Us carriers are cutting back.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PHXmd80
Posted 2008-06-04 08:26:37 and read 16175 times.



Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 66):
Joe
Kolshak was named senior vice president-Operations,
overseeing United Services, Flight Operations and
Operations Control. Kolshak previously served as
Deltas executive vice president of operations

When did Joe leave Delta?  Confused

PHXmd80

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2008-06-04 08:28:52 and read 16161 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 63):
Again I am clueless just like UA's management, but I would guess the 744's involved fly SFO-LHR/FRA and the FRA/IAD routes.

I don't think the route reductions will necessarily be the routes that the 747's are flying.

For example, how about cutting ORD-South America for starters? Sent that traffic through IAH for their new almost-partner CO to handle and reassign those aircraft to the routes on which the 747's are losing $$.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-04 08:39:04 and read 16023 times.



Quoting NA (Reply 55):
I´m sure freight operators will queue for those 744s if parking is not just a temporary measure of a few months.

Well post 9/11, 744s were temporarily parked. So not sure what UA will do here, it's 7 years later but they don't have any new widebodies since then, so there are no replacements.

I am of the belief that oil will fall eventually. I remember when the housing market was growing and I said the same thing, and I was told by experts that due to demand, it may slow but would still keep going up in places like Los Angeles due to constrained availability. Of course, they were wrong, and home prices have dropped here too and are going to drop more.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Mcdu
Posted 2008-06-04 08:41:40 and read 15971 times.



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 67):
During the time that UA was in BK, could they've overhauled the company just a wee-bit more than just slap a new paint job on their planes? DL is just one example of fine-tuning a company.

You mean the DL example of say.......SONG? Dl is going to have just as deep cuts if not deeper due to the overlap of the NW/DL operation. The ONLY reason DL is not trumpeting these cuts is because they need to sell the merger in the minds of the employees.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 68):
High fuel costs and high labor costs are the reason why UA and other Us carriers are cutting back.

Fuel cost well exceed labor cost and if you care to run the numbers UA's labor cost are among the LOWEST in the industry. It is the non labor cost that are higher than the competition.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2008-06-04 08:41:46 and read 15985 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 63):
Again I am clueless just like UA's management, but I would guess the 744's involved fly SFO-LHR/FRA and the FRA/IAD routes.

I was kind of thinking this as well, although on the SFO-LHR route, the 747 only runs for summer. I am not sure about the other routes.

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 67):
DL is just one example of fine-tuning a company.

So basically your saying that fuel is not in anyway hurting DL and they are not going to announce any cuts in flight. And no, I dont mean as a result of any pending merger. Look for DL to make cuts real soon as well. This is going to be happening just about everywhere.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Imapilotaz
Posted 2008-06-04 08:53:15 and read 15758 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 68):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money,

Only? You're talking about the two costlier items in their operating budget. High fuel costs and high labor costs are the reason why UA and other Us carriers are cutting back.

Um, you also have your Maintenance expenses that are Flight Hour and Cycle driven such as Landing Gear, APU, Engines, reserves for heavy checks, etc. Those are very real if its a 5 minute hop or a 5 hour flight.

You also have landing fees (not cheap in a 747-400 when one considers it is 850,000 pounds @ $2.50 per 1,000 lbs, you're talking $2125. You have turn fees for the airports, at likely close to $1000 per turn.

You also have insurance expenses that are calculated partially on passenger numbers. There are technically reservation expenses associated with every PB that you have.

As you can see, there are substantially more expenses than just "Fuel & Crews" for doing a tag.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Caspritz78
Posted 2008-06-04 09:04:32 and read 15606 times.

To be honest people what

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 19):
96 aircraft at 5 sets of crew per aircraft (2 pilot, 3 FA per crew) is roughly 960 pilots and 1440 Flight Attendants.

Actually more. I read you need about 5 crews to operate a plane continuously. This is because of the maximum hours the crew is allowed to work.

Anyway I think UA finally realized that drastic measures are needed to get the costs under control. I hope the continue their efforts to modernize the remaining birds and improve quality. Otherwise they won't be able to justify higher fares which we will probably see soon, too.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-04 09:22:36 and read 15190 times.



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 73):
So basically your saying that fuel is not in anyway hurting DL and they are not going to announce any cuts in flight. And no, I dont mean as a result of any pending merger. Look for DL to make cuts real soon as well. This is going to be happening just about everywhere.

Basically I think he is saying TED should have went bye-bye during BK.

Quoting PHXmd80 (Reply 69):
When did Joe leave Delta?

After Anderson came on board.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-06-04 09:58:06 and read 14905 times.

Quoting CFMitch56 (Reply 50):
Are the 737 pilots the lowest on the seniority ladder? I recall they were actually training new Airbus pilots within the past year or so. Does UA still have a lot of (expensive) old-timer pilots and FAs or have they all retired or been bought out in bankruptcy?

The A320(A319/320) and 737(733/735) are the same on the list for new hires. Pilots had a choice of either the 737 or A320(Most picked the A320 b/c a lot foresaw the dying fleet back when we were hiring). The Bus and Guppy are the Junior planes for FO, but are sorta high for line holding caps but the plane has a lot of younger cap who just want the 4th stripe and flying reserve. My mom told me last year, she flew w/ a cap that had only 5 years w/ the airline or something like that.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 63):
Again I am clueless just like UA's management



[Edited 2008-06-04 10:02:49]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AADC10
Posted 2008-06-04 10:09:11 and read 14682 times.



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 12):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
I wonder how many 744s will be parked, and if they will ever return to service with UA.

Once they're parked, I highly doubt it.

UA parked some 744s before and later returned them to service. I wonder if the six are leased and are being returned?

Quoting NA (Reply 38):
If UA could operate the 744 full they´be as economical as 772s. So why don´t they park 777 "A"s as in 2002?

Really? Where did you get that information?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PlaneHunter
Posted 2008-06-04 10:09:30 and read 14680 times.



Quoting NA (Reply 38):
If UA could operate the 744 full they´be as economical as 772s.

It depends on the yields - a 744 filled up with cheap Y tickets doesn't help.

Quoting NA (Reply 38):
So why don´t they park 777 "A"s as in 2002?

The fuel price makes a difference today. 777As are perfect workhorses for UA's transatlantic routes.


PH

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-06-04 10:10:51 and read 14653 times.



Quoting Philly65 (Reply 32):
I bet LAX-SYD is axed, and shifted to SFO double daily.

that doesnt save anything, plus it only dilutes SFO.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ERAUgrad02
Posted 2008-06-04 10:12:50 and read 14627 times.

What are the odds that UA would allow their regional partners to fly 76-78 seat aircraft to help with the small capacity loss after they bring TED A320's back to mainline?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Imapilotaz
Posted 2008-06-04 10:20:07 and read 14478 times.



Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 81):
What are the odds that UA would allow their regional partners to fly 76-78 seat aircraft to help with the small capacity loss after they bring TED A320's back to mainline?

Why would they want to? The whole point is to remove capacity on routes. If they are cutting domestic capacity by 18%, the best thing they can hope for is to "get rid" of 12-15% of their passengers, and with proper YM/RM, you would be eliminating the leisure traffic, which would then increase yields on the routes.

As Kelleher has stated, air travel is likely on a 1-way course back to the 70s where a significant portion of the population does not travel by air due to the cost. At this point, that is the only way for airlines to make money.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PanAm330
Posted 2008-06-04 10:33:25 and read 14346 times.



Quoting AADC10 (Reply 78):
UA parked some 744s before and later returned them to service. I wonder if the six are leased and are being returned?

I know that - but this environment is much worse when compared to the post-9/11 one when they last parked some 744s. Let's not forget that they sold a couple of those during that time too - something that they could do again if the right price were offered.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DC8FanJet
Posted 2008-06-04 10:34:31 and read 14378 times.

I would guess that the -400's being parked in 2009 are the aircraft that are due for heavy
maintenance next year. Major expense avoided as well as saving the fuel they burn.

Hate to see the Queen of the Skies parked, but for most of UA routes, the 777 is fine.

The Ted A320's won't replace the 737's, unless the TED routes are cut. Eliminating TED
simply allows the aircraft to fly any route.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PSA53
Posted 2008-06-04 10:42:52 and read 14274 times.

My two cents....IMO

Quoting Jawake (Reply 1):
I can't say I am surprised, but the 747s, that will be tricky. That is a lot of parked aircraft. Wow

It's devastating news and will get worse and should send a wake up call message to everyone in the industry that......next entry...

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
do not foresee UAL ordering or acquiring any additional aircraft in the near future

And Boeing and Airbus have to understand that their future is very questionable.The battle is no longer between AMR vs.UAL or Boeing vs.Airbus.The real battle lines is Pratt and Whitney,GE vs.Rolls Royce to invest their resources into producing a powerplant that will use alternative fuel and other non-fossil options.Or maybe even hybrid.But the new direction is clear to recover this industry back into prominence.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-04 10:51:50 and read 14142 times.



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 85):
The real battle lines is Pratt and Whitney,GE vs.Rolls Royce to invest their resources into producing a powerplant that will use alternative fuel and other non-fossil options

Silliness.

The future is for aircraft to continue to use oil, and OTHER industries to use alternatives. It is far easier for power plants, autos (and even ships) and the like to use alternative fuels than aviation.

The job of GE and RR and others is to increase efficiency as much as possible, but wasting resources on the pipe dream that is non-fossil fuel for flight will just drive UP costs of aircraft engines, making it MORE expensive to fly. It may be possible that bio-fuels will help, but their cost is high in terms of social and environmental cost, and ultimately, the research will lead to them being used in existing engines rather than having to redesign engines to use them.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Bmacleod
Posted 2008-06-04 10:53:34 and read 14121 times.

It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high-speed rail.

But if crude pairs down to $100 by year end or even lower, UA will begin to plan aircraft acquisitions probably 787s, the 777LR doesn't fit into UA's network but they're not very eager on the 747-8 either....

Anyway, I figure the 744s are being trimmed down as UA's hands are tied by $130 crude.

Replacing 733s with A319/320s is another good idea, let's wait and see...

[Edited 2008-06-04 10:54:59]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PSA53
Posted 2008-06-04 11:09:18 and read 13944 times.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 87):
It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high-speed rail.

Agreed.Right now,as discussed in another thread,the price frenzy of oil could go bust and be back below $100.Because this is a investor business reaction on Wall St.Meaning some of this pricing is artificial.But no doubt, it will become real.And airline industry is getting a taste of a bleak future that must be adjusted to in which to survive.

[Edited 2008-06-04 11:19:42]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Olympic472
Posted 2008-06-04 11:47:31 and read 13645 times.

It seems that United management is finally tackling the business challenges head-on. My wish is for United and other airlines to come out of these trying times leaner and better run; while according the customers a quality flying experience.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Mcdu
Posted 2008-06-04 12:18:13 and read 13411 times.



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 77):
My mom told me last year, she flew w/ a cap that had only 5 years w/ the airline or something like that.

That is absolutely incorrect information. The junior Captain in the last year has at a minimum 10 years of Seniority at UAL. Please stop posting the inaccurate info. You post stuff from you mother that is often completely off the mark.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-04 12:27:09 and read 13295 times.



Quoting AADC10 (Reply 78):
UA parked some 744s before and later returned them to service

I agree with you here. I believe that if/when fuel prices stabilise, those 744s will return back to service... they are very much needed in the fleet.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: StarGoldLHR
Posted 2008-06-04 12:31:38 and read 13310 times.

Having done loads of UA 744 routes over the years... the ones in my opinion to go will be

Services to TPE
SFO-LHR 744 downsize to a 777
1 Route to NRT will go.

those two routes alone give you 6 x 747...

I reckon the 767 may make a re-appearence on LHR-IAD... this route always has spare seats with a 777.

Intra-Asia routes are a bit hit / miss... they wouldnt do much else other than sit at NRT, but the fares on these routes are generally very low..

the HKG-SIN is a very bad time (11pm at night in SIN, 6am Depart) and no SQ codeshare... but if it didnt goto SIN, it's a 12 hour night on the tarmac in HKG...instead of a 6 hour night in SIN... if it didnt make much money, I could see it curtailed to save money, but it wouldnt save an aircraft.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: StarGoldLHR
Posted 2008-06-04 12:37:37 and read 13192 times.

2001 saw the end of those 6x daily 727 routes, MD11's & MD80's...

since these have crept back to 3x daily ERJ / CRJ outsourced routes...
and the migration of A320 from it's purchased potential "United Shuttle" into "mainline transcontinental" routes..

looks like this year will be the year of the 737/747...

and the re-evolution of the 767 back into international Long Haul, and the 777 as a 747 replacement, and further downsizing of "shuttle" into a outsourcing.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ctermua
Posted 2008-06-04 12:40:00 and read 13171 times.

Somewhere in the employee newswire they mentioned a new VP of Ops...Joe Kolshak, apparently coming from Delta. Anyone know anything about him? They seem to shuffle upper management around at UAL on a monthly basis.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-04 12:39:42 and read 13238 times.



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 92):
those two routes alone give you 6 x 747...

I just heard 7 744s will be grounded. If it's not the lease jets, I bet it will be the "oldest" 744s:

171 ('89)
173 ('89)
174 ('90)
175 ('90)
177 ('90)
178 ('90)
179 ('91)

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-04 12:41:33 and read 13162 times.



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 93):
and the re-evolution of the 767 back into international Long Haul, and the 777 as a 747 replacement, and further downsizing of "shuttle" into a outsourcing.

250,000 question though, where do these 777s come from? The fleet is already stretched thin. 767s are tied up on ORD/IAD Europe routes that can't support 777 sized loads.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: TWA1985
Posted 2008-06-04 12:43:48 and read 13179 times.

The grounding of the 737-300 feels really strange since that aircraft was brand new when I was born in January of 1985, only entering service about a month before that. I actually have Air Cal, Western, and Piedmont timetables that talk about the inaugeration of the 737-300 servie with their airlines. All of them have nice photos of the plane. It makes me feel so old!!  Smile

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-04 12:52:36 and read 13028 times.



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 93):
looks like this year will be the year of the 737/747...

It will be much bigger and deeper than that. In 2001, the fleet was much larger. This will have a watershed effect. At this stage, you can’t drastically alter one fleet (grounding 30 737s and 7 744s) without it affecting every other fleet. Grounding these aircraft will affect every other fleet in the airline, as capacity is reduced and routes are cut. As you probably know, pulling a 747 off a route and replacing it with a 777 will resonate everywhere down the line, its not as simple as pulling a “spare 777”. UA is in a tough situation. AA is parking planes, but they are also adding to their fleet. UA is just shrinking.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: B777ER
Posted 2008-06-04 13:01:34 and read 12942 times.

I posted this on 05.27.08:
It might be back. FWIW, perusing a msg board the other day, a pilot whose sister works in UA senior mgt blabbered on a public forum that his sister told him after they, UA, had a meeting end of last week that here in short order, UA would be cutting 25% management and if oil stayed above 130 dollars throughout the summer, UA will go Ch 7 in the fall. Take it FWIW.


Guess its looking more and more like it might be true.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: StarGoldLHR
Posted 2008-06-04 13:03:54 and read 12919 times.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 96):
250,000 question though, where do these 777s come from? The fleet is already stretched thin. 767s are tied up on ORD/IAD Europe routes that can't support 777 sized loads.

I reckon you'll see some upscaling of smaller aircraft..

who knows Maybe A320's will replace 757's on some routes, and allow 757's to do more deomestic in place of the 767's... hence allowing 767's to replace 777s and allow a thinning out at the top with 777's ousting the 747's...

I flew a UA 757 from LGA to IAD last week.. i'm sure that could become an A320..
That 757 could then replace a domestic 767...
Inturn that Domestic 767 can become an international 767 and replace the 777
which replaces the 747...

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-04 13:23:26 and read 12839 times.



Quoting ERNo one is mentioning UA’s traffic report for May that came out last night. They are quite honestly aweful. No other US airline has reported reduced traffic on reduced capacity in every major region for them… and UA has done that every month this year even during April when AA cancelled thousands of flights.
Something is not right at UA and if I could tell them what it is I’d be a very rich person.

United Airlines Reports May Traffic Results
Tuesday June 3, 5:00 pm ET
CHICAGO, June 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- United Airlines today reported its preliminary traffic results for May 2008. The company reported a May passenger load factor of 82.6 percent. Total scheduled revenue passenger miles (RPMs) decreased in May by 4.1 percent on a capacity decrease of 1.7 percent in scheduled available seat miles (ASMs) compared with the same period in 2007.



2008 2007 YOY
May May Change
SCHEDULED SERVICE ONLY:
REVENUE MILES FLOWN (000) 62,923 64,130 -1.9%

ACTUAL NUMBER OF DEPARTURES 45,223 47,287 -4.4%

REVENUE PASSENGERS BOARDED (000) 5,657 6,062 -6.7%

REVENUE PASSENGER MILES
(000):
NORTH AMERICA 5,699,686 6,150,764 -7.3%
PACIFIC 2,140,598 2,215,416 -3.4%
ATLANTIC 1,667,491 1,556,173 7.2%
LATIN AMERICA 288,660 287,489 0.4%
SYSTEM 9,796,435 10,209,842 -4.1%

AVAILABLE SEAT MILES (000):
NORTH AMERICA 6,756,266 7,151,689 -5.5%
PACIFIC 2,732,049 2,727,272 0.2%
ATLANTIC 2,015,139 1,819,012 10.8%
LATIN AMERICA 361,646 367,574 -1.6%
SYSTEM 11,865,100 12,065,547 -1.7%

PASSENGER LOAD FACTOR
(PERCENT):
NORTH AMERICA 84.4 86.0 -1.6 pts
PACIFIC 78.4 81.2 -2.8 pts
ATLANTIC 82.7 85.6 -2.9 pts
LATIN AMERICA 79.8 78.2 1.6 pts
SYSTEM 82.6 84.6 -2.0 pts

CARGO TON MILES (000):
FREIGHT 155,308 149,034 4.2%
MAIL 23,122 17,427 32.7%
SYSTEM 178,430 166,461 7.2%



TOTAL SYSTEM INCLUDING
CHARTER (000):
REVENUE PASSENGER MILES 9,810,411 10,210,328 -3.9%

AVAILABLE SEAT MILES 11,888,098 12,067,447 -1.5%

REVENUE PSGR. KM. 15,787,894 16,431,481 -3.9%
AVAILABLE SEAT KM. 19,131,516 19,420,142 -1.5%

TOTAL REVENUE TON MILES 1,159,498 1,187,488 -2.4%
TOTAL AVAIL. TON MILES 1,768,069 1,940,060 -8.9%

TOTAL REV. TON KM. 1,681,457 1,721,870 -2.4%
TOTAL AVAIL. TON KM. 2,581,381 2,832,488 -8.9%



YEAR TO DATE YEAR TO DATE YOY
2008 2007 Change
SCHEDULED SERVICE ONLY:
REVENUE MILES FLOWN (000) 307,533 311,693 -1.3%

ACTUAL NUMBER OF DEPARTURES 218,865 229,199 -4.5%

REVENUE PASSENGERS BOARDED
(000) 26,318 28,311 -7.0%

REVENUE PASSENGER MILES
(000):
NORTH AMERICA 26,496,203 28,890,943 -8.3%
PACIFIC 10,443,960 10,621,066 -1.7%
ATLANTIC 7,243,436 6,507,039 11.3%
LATIN AMERICA 1,804,365 1,808,546 -0.2%
SYSTEM 45,987,964 47,827,594 -3.8%

AVAILABLE SEAT MILES (000):
NORTH AMERICA 32,794,154 34,972,487 -6.2%
PACIFIC 13,503,939 13,058,727 3.4%
ATLANTIC 9,314,463 8,070,256 15.4%
LATIN AMERICA 2,272,811 2,251,194 1.0%
SYSTEM 57,885,367 58,352,664 -0.8%

PASSENGER LOAD FACTOR
(PERCENT):
NORTH AMERICA 80.8 82.6 -1.8 pts
PACIFIC 77.3 81.3 -4.0 pts
ATLANTIC 77.8 80.6 -2.8 pts
LATIN AMERICA 79.4 80.3 -0.9 pts
SYSTEM 79.4 82.0 -2.6 pts

CARGO TON MILES (000):
FREIGHT 736,280 718,964 2.4%
MAIL 110,350 81,237 35.8%
SYSTEM 846,630 800,201 5.8%

TOTAL SYSTEM INCLUDING
CHARTER (000):
REVENUE PASSENGER MILES 46,014,115 47,833,932 -3.8%

AVAILABLE SEAT MILES 57,938,634 58,371,046 -0.7%

REVENUE PSGR. KM. 74,050,515 76,979,147 -3.8%
AVAILABLE SEAT KM. 93,240,644 93,936,524 -0.7%

TOTAL REVENUE TON MILES 5,448,067 5,583,589 -2.4%
TOTAL AVAIL. TON MILES 9,203,466 9,325,371 -1.3%

TOTAL REV. TON KM. 7,900,667 8,096,419 -2.4%
TOTAL AVAIL. TON KM. 13,437,060 13,615,042 -1.3%

Source: United Airlines

J170
(Reply 9):
could UA and CO be looking to start a whole new alliance? They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?

There are still only 3 major European airlines that would form the primary partners for any alliance. The EU wants a lot fewer of the dozens of smaller airlines spread across Europe.

DL was the only US founding member of Skyteam. CO is not of the size that they will be a determining factor in shaping any alliance. They have a lot of international traffic but they cannot form the backbone of any alliance.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 73):
o basically your saying that fuel is not in anyway hurting DL and they are not going to announce any cuts in flight. And no, I dont mean as a result of any pending merger. Look for DL to make cuts real soon as well. This is going to be happening just about everywhere.

It is simply not true that every network will handle this current fuel crisis the same way. There are widely different amounts of fuel hedged…. DL recently said they are at 49% for the 2nd quarter which is one of the highest figures among network airlines.

DL is also SHIFTING capacity from domestic to international, not cutting capacity across their entire system. Shifting instead of cutting overall makes a big difference in costs. It is virtually impossible to cut unit costs at an airline while reducing capacity.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 82):
s Kelleher has stated, air travel is likely on a 1-way course back to the 70s where a significant portion of the population does not travel by air due to the cost. At this point, that is the only way for airlines to make money.

Yes…. There will be fewer people traveling by air…. Including to/from Asia where UA competes aggressively against much stronger Asian carriers.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 86):
The future is for aircraft to continue to use oil, and OTHER industries to use alternatives. It is far easier for power plants, autos (and even ships) and the like to use alternative fuels than aviation.

Not everyone else is willing to relinquish their right to use fuel so aviation can continue to do so. Technologically, you are right but reality will not be driven by technology as much as economics.


There will be winners and losers in the current downturn. UA is setting themselves up to be a loser.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-06-04 13:23:34 and read 12858 times.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 90):
Please stop posting the inaccurate info. You post stuff from you mother that is often completely off the mark.

Sorry for living, As you read next, I said or something like that She could not recall exact numbers.

Someones having a bad day

[Edited 2008-06-04 13:27:01]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UnitedSuperDC8
Posted 2008-06-04 13:24:21 and read 12795 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 99):
a pilot whose sister works in UA senior mgt blabbered on a public forum that his sister told him after they, UA, had a meeting

I am certainly taking that for what it's worth -  thumbsdown   thumbsdown   thumbsdown 

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UnitedSuperDC8
Posted 2008-06-04 13:31:47 and read 12755 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
UA is setting themselves up to be a loser.

I have to disagree with you. United has lead the way this year in reducing capacity and increasing fares. This is positioning United to survive the dowturn. To act otherwise would be irresponsible.

[Edited 2008-06-04 13:32:21]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2008-06-04 13:45:01 and read 12592 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
It is simply not true that every network will handle this current fuel crisis the same way. There are widely different amounts of fuel hedged…. DL recently said they are at 49% for the 2nd quarter which is one of the highest figures among network airlines.

Interesting you mention the May traffic numbers that came out last night, they were indeed awful.

NW's were released today, and overall looked pretty good for May. (Yes I know it says nothing about yields).

Reading between the lines, perhaps there is a lot more to the DEN bloodbath that everyone admits.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-06-04 13:51:41 and read 12454 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
DL is also SHIFTING capacity from domestic to international, not cutting capacity across their entire system. Shifting instead of cutting overall makes a big difference in costs. It is virtually impossible to cut unit costs at an airline while reducing capacity.

It's a virtual certainty that there is flying which is profitable with oil at $65 which is not profitable with oil at $115. Seemingly, the only relevant question is whether there is enough potential profitable flying elsewhere (mainly internationally) to offset the loss of profitable flying domestically. To the extent that there is, you shift capacity. Beyond that, though, it's tough to make any sort of credible case for not reducing capacity regardless of the effect on unit costs.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-04 14:08:45 and read 12163 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
It's a virtual certainty that there is flying which is profitable with oil at $65 which is not profitable with oil at $115. Seemingly, the only relevant question is whether there is enough potential profitable flying elsewhere (mainly internationally) to offset the loss of profitable flying domestically. To the extent that there is, you shift capacity. Beyond that, though, it's tough to make any sort of credible case for not reducing capacity regardless of the effect on unit costs.

I'll bite for the sake of argument, and boredom at work...

Domestic capacity reductions or cuts (at least in the past) have led to new or other airlines to enter the market, backfilling the capacity, providing seats. When the new airline folds or the existing airline pulls out of the market, there is a vacuum, and the existing airline ends up restarting the service. Look at how its transpiring now:

UA used to fly LAX-HKG, then stopped, then restarted it last fall, and now have announced their plans to cut it again.

I can't do it now, but I'm certain that F9 has and does fly routes that used to be served by UA out of DEN (as well as their axed LAX-Mexico service). The same for Indy at IAD...

Again, just for the sake of argument and to make my afternoon go by faster  Smile

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Trex8
Posted 2008-06-04 14:10:00 and read 12166 times.

what happens to the 737 fleet pilots, they get laid off?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-04 14:10:20 and read 12176 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
Not everyone else is willing to relinquish their right to use fuel so aviation can continue to do so. Technologically, you are right but reality will not be driven by technology as much as economics.

Yes, but it is still a matter of physics. Air travel doesn't use a lot of fuel to begin with when you take overall fuel use into account. And it's one of the most difficult industries to wean from fossil fuels without destroying it. And it is vital to the modern world.

Power generation on the ground is much easier to change, as new plants always need to come on line. Automobiles as well, since they spend most of their time idle anyway, are usually replaced in a short time frame, and the ground supports their weight.

The thing about airplanes is that they have to constantly support their own weight during operation, something cars, trains, boats, etc. don't use energy to do. All must overcome momentum, but only airplanes must use fuel just to support their own weight as well.

The money spent on trying to create a non-fossil fuel engine for a plane is far better spent improving rail and road transportation systems, and making the fossil fuel engines more efficient.

Just as the wasted money spent on SULEV vs. existing ULEV vehicles would be far better spent making the ULEV cars more efficient or buying up 20 year old cars and replacing them with 5 year old cars, and remove thousands of times the pollutants in the process.

But as you say, the proper use of technology and logic don't always go hand in hand with public policy. Rarely, actually.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-06-04 14:20:08 and read 11960 times.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 107):
Domestic capacity reductions or cuts (at least in the past) have led to new or other airlines to enter the market, backfilling the capacity, providing seats. When the new airline folds or the existing airline pulls out of the market, there is a vacuum, and the existing airline ends up restarting the service. Look at how its transpiring now:

I agree with you about the past, but I wonder how the price of oil will affect that phenomenon, and I can't claim to have an answer to that besides the qualitative observation that there will almost certainly be less backfilling than in the past. I have no idea how much less.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DesertAir
Posted 2008-06-04 14:29:59 and read 11859 times.

I wonder if Tucson will loose its daily UA mainline flight to Denver?
US is cutting its two Las Vegas flights on Mesa.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-06-04 14:35:05 and read 11680 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
DL is also SHIFTING capacity from domestic to international, not cutting capacity across their entire system.

I bet in one week you'll be singing a different tune Yeah sure

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-04 14:52:03 and read 11406 times.



Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 104):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
UA is setting themselves up to be a loser.

I have to disagree with you. United has lead the way this year in reducing capacity and increasing fares. This is positioning United to survive the dowturn. To act otherwise would be irresponsible.


Agreed SuperDC8 UA is doing exactly what it needs to do in order to make it through the downturn. Airlines that have not yet begun to react and are proceding bussiness as usual are the ones that are not going to make it through this.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 112):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 101):
DL is also SHIFTING capacity from domestic to international, not cutting capacity across their entire system.

I bet in one week you'll be singing a different tune

Already started.....PVG looses 2 freequencies a week.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-04 17:06:55 and read 9894 times.



Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 104):
I have to disagree with you. United has lead the way this year in reducing capacity and increasing fares. This is positioning United to survive the dowturn. To act otherwise would be irresponsible.

then why is their LF continuing to fall despite reducing capacity? There is no defensible reason UA should not be turning the operation around. They have been reducing capacity for months with no positive result.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
It's a virtual certainty that there is flying which is profitable with oil at $65 which is not profitable with oil at $115. Seemingly, the only relevant question is whether there is enough potential profitable flying elsewhere (mainly internationally) to offset the loss of profitable flying domestically. To the extent that there is, you shift capacity. Beyond that, though, it's tough to make any sort of credible case for not reducing capacity regardless of the effect on unit costs.

You don't reduce capacity if it increases the losses on the remaining capacity you will be flying. Airlines are notorious for reducing capacity during downturns but not getting the costs out. LFCs know you have to grow in order to keep costs down. The converse is that LFCs DO NOT reduce capacity because it will certainly sent unit costs up. Why? because airlines are highly unionized or at least follow strict seniority rules. If you reduce capacity, you leave the highest paid workers on the payroll while eliminating the cheapest ones. In a downturn, no airline has ever cut costs faster than they have raised their average flown fares.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 112):
I bet in one week you'll be singing a different tune

maybe, maybe not. DL is not cutting nearly 20% of its domestic capacity and grounding multiple international aircraft. Given that oil has dropped over the past week, I'm not sure we will see DL react unless oil heads back up again.

DL's traffic report for May looks very diffferent from UA's. They have record LFs on their domestic and int'l systems and have not reduced capacity at all - but SHIFTED it between from their domestic to int'l systems. NW reported similar results.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-06-04 17:10:15 and read 9816 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 114):
If you reduce capacity, you leave the highest paid workers on the payroll while eliminating the cheapest ones. In a downturn, no airline has ever cut costs faster than they have raised their average flown fares.

Seems like a Hobson's choice... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-06-04 17:16:03 and read 9761 times.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 87):
It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high-speed rail.

Hmmm, and just exactly who is going to fund the multi-billion dollar infrastructure development to support that? You need only look at Amtrak to see how (un)successful rail travel has become in the U.S. So long as it takes six hours, not three days to get from NY to LA, people will always pay to fly if they need to.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 88):
Agreed.Right now,as discussed in another thread,the price frenzy of oil could go bust and be back below $100.

Oil prices have dropped 10% in six trading days. Anything can happen.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
It's a virtual certainty that there is flying which is profitable with oil at $65 which is not profitable with oil at $115.

Case in point: my BWI/IAD-ORD tickets on UA ran me $165 r/t last summer. They're $283 this summer. As much as it pains me, UA has found a way to raise fares at a level commensurate with oil.

Talk about timing - I started this thread last night and 'guessed' Ted would bite the bullet...ten hours later - voila! Anyone want me to make any other bold "predictions"?!

Hang in there UA!


777fan

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-04 17:43:29 and read 9467 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 116):
Oil prices have dropped 10% in six trading days. Anything can happen.

The Wall Street Journal has an article today stating that an increasing number of commodities traders believe oil and other commodities (grains, metals) have hit a bubble and are on their way down precisely because such a huge influx of money has flown in the commodties markets and forced up prices just as what happened in the tech boom and bust of the late 90s.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-06-04 17:53:21 and read 9326 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 113):

Already started.....PVG looses 2 freequencies a week.

That's only the beginning apparently.

http://www.startribune.com/business/...12034.html?location_refer=Business

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Av8rDAL
Posted 2008-06-04 17:56:25 and read 9243 times.

UA's grounding of the older 733s is agreeable, but the benching of 744s and losses of transoceanic routes and revenue will hurt. Makes me think about the future of DeltaWest's soon-to-be-inherited 744s spending little time in the new fleet.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 116):
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 87):
It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high-speed rail.

Not in this country. Our rail infrastructure is almost 100% controlled by rail freight companies. It's just more profitable (hence Amtrak's infamous delays to let freight pass by). The passenger rail business would not exist outside of the northeastern seaboard and maybe California if it weren't for Joe Taxpayer propping it up with billions every year.

The cost of developing passenger rail infrastructure to be on par with Europe, Japan, etc. will take a lot more than $200/bbl oil to cause people to consider alternative transport to taking 1.5-2 hour flights that would cost in the $1000s. Exceptions obviously lie in transcontinental routes....

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2008-06-04 18:06:08 and read 9145 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 114):
DL's traffic report for May looks very diffferent from UA's. They have record LFs on their domestic and int'l systems and have not reduced capacity at all - but SHIFTED it between from their domestic to int'l systems. NW reported similar results.

The primary difference between DL and UA is that DL (and NW) did a better job of cost cutting while in bankruptcy. That's the primary reason for them outperforming UA. From the revenue side, UA and DL have performed about the same.

Nonetheless, DL has already announced capacity cuts for the fall. And has already said there will be additional cuts beyond what was announced in March. Plus, there will be more cuts once the merger is approved. DL is somewhat hamstrung from making these cuts until the merger clears the DOJ.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: CIDflyer
Posted 2008-06-04 18:22:33 and read 8946 times.



Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 119):
It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high-speed rail.

I can't help to think the oil industry would be shooting itself in the foot by letting it get that high. If airlines shut down and people stop driving, obviously there won't be a demand for it and then how can they justify it being so expensive?? I hope some of the predictions are right and that the bubble will burst, much like it did on the tech and real estate industries.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: B777ER
Posted 2008-06-04 18:48:39 and read 8811 times.

Well whether you UA fanboys like it or not, a legacy going Chapter 7 is just what the US aviation market needs to let the rest of them have a fighting chance to survive until either oil comes down or an alternate to fossil fuel comes on the market which is not likely until mid-next decade. UA's announcements IMO are just the tip of the iceberg for them. I fully expect them to liquidate by fall. Sorry, just the way it is.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-04 19:05:21 and read 8695 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 117):
The Wall Street Journal has an article today stating that an increasing number of commodities traders believe oil and other commodities (grains, metals) have hit a bubble

Not just the WSJ, but all over the world. Once it spiked so quickly the last couple of months it was quite obvious that it was a bubble, but the question is, where is the floor going to be.

A new reality at $100+, or a traditional 60-70% tumble as some past markets have done (oil, gold, NASDAQ). 40% of $130 = $50-$55, which is about where the price of oil SHOULD be with the dollar the way it is.

And the dollar is slowly strengthening, too.

Will be an interesting summer...

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Tozairport
Posted 2008-06-04 19:19:48 and read 8569 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 122):
UA's announcements IMO are just the tip of the iceberg for them. I fully expect them to liquidate by fall.

You know the old saying... "Opinions are like A--------s, everybody has one." You opinion fits that saying to a "T". Do you know that fall is only 3 months away? Do you know that UA still has BILLIONS in unrestricted cash and assets? Your little Delta loving soul may be wishing UA away, but you will be seriously disappointed. You will see a couple of Airbus flying LCC's go away before you see ANY legacy go away. "Opinions are like A------s..." Hey look, I have one too!  Wow!  Big grin

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DC8FanJet
Posted 2008-06-04 19:26:41 and read 8526 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 122):
Well whether you UA fanboys like it or not, a legacy going Chapter 7 is just what the US aviation market needs to let the rest of them have a fighting chance to survive until either oil comes down or an alternate to fossil fuel comes on the market which is not likely until mid-next decade. UA's announcements IMO are just the tip of the iceberg for them. I fully expect them to liquidate by fall. Sorry, just the way it is.

Hardly, but keep dreaming........

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-04 19:29:04 and read 8599 times.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 120):
Nonetheless, DL has already announced capacity cuts for the fall.

yes, and DL announced theirs months ago. They aren't in panic mode and they aren't laying off thousands of employees. They had the opportunity to offer voluntary packages and got more than enough takers - and they got higher paid employees which is exactly the opposite of what any unionized airline will get when it lays people off.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 123):
A new reality at $100+, or a traditional 60-70% tumble as some past markets have done (oil, gold, NASDAQ). 40% of $130 = $50-$55, which is about where the price of oil SHOULD be with the dollar the way it is.

I haven't seen anyone seriously state that they believe oil will return to below $60. It was above those levels before the Fed started cutting interest rates and the US stock indices started tanking. India and China haven't stopped growing just because oil is getting higher priced. And while there is new oil production and refining capacity coming online around the world, there is nowhere near that amount. Nonetheless, the Saudis want oil prices down before all this alternative energy development efforts really take hold. Remember, that there will be alot of Middle East economies fall apart when the western world finds substitutes for petrococaine.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-04 19:39:34 and read 8512 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 126):
yes, and DL announced theirs months ago. They aren't in panic mode and they aren't laying off thousands of employees.

That may be the problem, shouldn't they be in panic mode? When DL announced their cutbacks oil was no where near what the current price is, if DL is done cutting they are going to have some serious problems that are only going to be magnified when/if they merge.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: LACA773
Posted 2008-06-04 20:11:44 and read 8374 times.

What will UA do with routes that use 733/735s heavily: i.e., LAX-SFO/DEN/SEA, multiple routes out of SFO, many from DEN and ORD.
Will the hourly shuttles, LAX-SFO, ORD-BOS/LGA/DCA be scaled back or replaced with the airbuses?
Will there ever be a chance UA will buy and or lease E90/95s?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2008-06-04 20:18:19 and read 8330 times.

UA has a lot of problems from where I'm sitting. I don't know the answers but I can at least provide info on what I'm seeing at SEA. UA has historically been a very significant player here, with a long history of providing non-hub routes as well as playing an important international role (they used to serve HKG, and SEA-NRT was their first Asian route). UA used to have huge loyalty here, and employed a lot of people. UA was an important part of the scene.

Beginning in 2000, UA's services as a whole began to suffer given the summer of hell as well as a general decline in standards. Even before 2000 this was well under way with the Shuttle by United product. Everyone I know hated it - it just didn't add any value from a pax perspective and the whole thing felt cheap. UA was trying to compete with a new entrant - WN - as well as an expanding AS, but they got it wrong. They drove away business pax and generally gained a reputation for bad service.

Then go forward to 2000-2001 - UA cut substantially all of their UAX flying out of SEA, leaving only PDX/GEG. Without a reason to use UA around the Pacific Northwest, the business base began looking elsewhere ... and QX was the competition. While the lone bright spot at UA was the reintroduction of SEA-NRT, AS was aggressively expanding. As were other carriers. UA was faced with much more competition. WN was now a competitor to California. F9 was giving competition to DEN. Where UA used to split ORD traffic with AA, now there's AS and WN to deal with.

Since then UA has continued to weather away. They offer significant competition on every route from SEA. They continue to shed routes (ANC) and frequencies. Almost no one I know picks UA anymore given that AS and it's partners are often more convenient and have better service. I've used UA several times in the last couple of years looking for an alternative to AS, yet they continue to disappoint with delays and crappy service. I really want to use them, but they just don't give me any compelling reason to do so.

UA has a powerful brand image IMO, one of the best in the industry. But the last 10 years of their operation has been mired by a general withering away of routes, endless contraction, and cutting service to the point that UA really isn't any better than anyone else. I hope they can turn it around, but I don't like where things are headed. I haven't seen UA do anything in the last couple of years that makes me feel that I should give them more of my business. They're a generic choice and I use them without hesitation, but I don't get excited about flying UA and usually look elsewhere first.

UA needs to bring some charisma back to their brand and give travellers a reason to give them another try. I think DL has done an amazing job of reinventing their brand and creating excitement amongst pax and employees. UA should look to this as a model in which they can revive their decaying image.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: B777ER
Posted 2008-06-04 20:35:01 and read 8252 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 126):
Nonetheless, the Saudis want oil prices down before all this alternative energy development efforts really take hold. Remember, that there will be alot of Middle East economies fall apart when the western world finds substitutes for petrococaine.

This is why I hope oil stays above 120 dollars a barrel. Yes I said "hope" and "above" and "120 dollars a barrel". Reason? We NEED to find alternative energy sources and oil staying high is the only way we will be able to do it in a quick sort of way. If oil goes down to 100 or less a barrel, people scrambling for alternative energy sources, regulations, etc...will fade. The best thing for the US/Europe in the long term is oil staying high. If not, we will get complacent and then when it shoots up again, we will be back a square one. Sure, there will be pain in the short term, but the long term and beyond will be better and thats what we need. We cannot wait until OPEC comes out and says, "folks, we have one year of oil reserves left and thats it". Can you imagine the panic? We need to prepare now and oil staying high is the only thing that will prod us to do that.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-04 21:14:37 and read 8048 times.



Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 119):
Makes me think about the future of DeltaWest's soon-to-be-inherited 744s spending little time in the new fleet.

NW did a good job of restructuring those leases, originally 1.5 million/month renogiated down to less than 500 thousand/month. 16 747-400's at 1,000,000/month savings, I don't think they will park them in the mojave, they may park overnight in ATL though.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United Airline
Posted 2008-06-04 21:42:10 and read 7942 times.

Is this temporary or is this for good? Guess it's temporary right?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: FreequentFlier
Posted 2008-06-04 22:15:25 and read 7800 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 114):

then why is their LF continuing to fall despite reducing capacity? There is no defensible reason UA should not be turning the operation around. They have been reducing capacity for months with no positive result.

This has been said countless times but ill-informed commentators continue to believe otherwise: load factors DO NOT MATTER! They are irrelevant. You can fill any plane if you charge a low enough price. RASM (revenue per available seat mile) is the only statistic that matters - unfortunately most carriers do not reveal RASM numbers in their traffic data, they just tout increased traffic. Some of the most profitable routes in the world are ones with low load factors and extremely high yields.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: ARGinLON
Posted 2008-06-04 22:37:21 and read 7715 times.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 133):
This has been said countless times but ill-informed commentators continue to believe otherwise: load factors DO NOT MATTER! They are irrelevant. You can fill any plane if you charge a low enough price. RASM (revenue per available seat mile) is the only statistic that matters - unfortunately most carriers do not reveal RASM numbers in their traffic data, they just tout increased traffic. Some of the most profitable routes in the world are ones with low load factors and extremely high yields.

Yes. RASM is very important but they are also other departments within an airline which would put pressure to have higher LFs that may drive to lower RASM.

Don't forget that airlines look at each other and do everything they can to compete 100%. Although airline "A" may have a really good RASM and make money on a given market, it will have a lot of pressure to mantain a decent LF vs. airline "B" in the same market.

I agree with you RASM is drives the profits, but other departments in the organisation will put a lot of pressure to have high LFs as well. Don't understimate the LF measure, it's taken into account more than you think.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2008-06-04 22:36:17 and read 7758 times.

Here's a poor article from the Seattle Times ... I didn't know UA flew SEA-SAT and SEA-FRA, and SEA-JAX  .

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ology/2004456720_apunitedcuts.html

[Edited 2008-06-04 22:37:18]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Christao17
Posted 2008-06-05 01:07:28 and read 7452 times.



Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 97):
It makes me feel so old!!

That makes you feel old. What made me feel old was when you wrote this:

Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 97):
when I was born in January of 1985



Quoting B777ER (Reply 122):
I fully expect them to liquidate by fall. Sorry, just the way it is.

Wishful thinking. Even if they are heading in that direction, recent reports are that they have enough cash for about another year and a half of operations. Their cuts should reduce cash burn more, so we'll looking at two years or so. My thought is that they turn it around enough that a merger opportunity with CO occurs by then.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 129):
UA needs to bring some charisma back to their brand and give travellers a reason to give them another try.

One way to do that would be for the UA employees to start delivering customer service again. Just a thought!

Quoting B777ER (Reply 130):
We NEED to find alternative energy sources and oil staying high is the only way we will be able to do it in a quick sort of way.

Amen! That's one of the most intelligent things I've read on A.net in a long while.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Alangirvan
Posted 2008-06-05 01:29:44 and read 7390 times.

Sorry if someone has commented on this, and I have not read it yet.... does parked mean parked in the desert, never to fly again, or perhaps sold to a year 2008/9 version of Valujet, who just might use 737-300s/500s to fly similar routes to UA?

Even if a 1996 737-300/500 is less fuel efficient than a new A320/319, the difference in lease/acquisition rates will still make a pre-loved plane very competitive.

I may be out of date, but I think Indianapolis is the center for United's 737 maintenance. How will staff in that base be affected by the grounding of the entire 737 fleet?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2008-06-05 02:26:40 and read 7310 times.

I expect many of the 733 to go the Asia - there is enough demand, and there are still many 732 to replace.
I also expect that head hunters from between Jeddah and Bangkok are already on the way to hire pilots.

On the alliance: When you have an alliance with LH and SQ on board, you don't change.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-05 03:43:05 and read 7211 times.



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 138):
I expect many of the 733 to go the Asia - there is enough demand, and there are still many 732 to replace.

735s are also fantastic replacements for 732s as they are roughly the same size. 733 is larger, but also has better CASM. But 735 is a good plane, and flying in a country with subsidized fuel pricing, it may work even during these temporary high fuel times if the acquisition price is right.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2008-06-05 05:05:11 and read 7064 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 130):
We cannot wait until OPEC comes out and says, "folks, we have one year of oil reserves left and thats it". Can you imagine the panic? We need to prepare now and oil staying high is the only thing that will prod us to do that.

Google the words "bakken formation"

The oil bubble will burst - and I will be gleeful.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Christao17
Posted 2008-06-05 05:11:24 and read 7042 times.



Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 137):
I may be out of date, but I think Indianapolis is the center for United's 737 maintenance.

The Indy MOC shut down after 9/11. My father was one of the people who was offered a "better retire now, since you're already close to retirement" deal or else face the pink slip.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: LGAUAOK
Posted 2008-06-05 05:15:04 and read 7035 times.

Just a side note, but Chicago made it to the final 4 today for cities to host the 2016 Olympic's. Could be a boom for UA in 2016, I wonder what they will be flying then (if still flying)??

my guess...... still the 777 but A350's will be on order.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2008-06-05 07:57:30 and read 6740 times.

I read the first 40 or so replies, I am confused.

The OP says the -300 are being retired, but in subsequent posts the -500 are mentioned.

So, are the -500 being retired as well?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 08:09:28 and read 6719 times.



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 143):
So, are the -500 being retired as well?

Yes all 64 737-300s and all 30 737-500s are being retired....the entire 737 fleet.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: NA
Posted 2008-06-05 08:28:50 and read 6663 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 139):
735s are also fantastic replacements for 732s as they are roughly the same size

Maybe, but still the 737-500 is one of the worst fuel guzzlers around. I have the LH Balance 2007 report in front of me, the 737-500 and less so, the 737-300 are, by far, the thirstiest continental airplanes in the fleet (735: 8,46 liter/100km/passenger, 733: 7,29 - for comparison A319: 5,97, A320: 5,39). Per passenger a 735 needs roughly 40% more fuel than a A319.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Mcdu
Posted 2008-06-05 11:30:41 and read 6402 times.



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 77):
plane has a lot of younger cap who just want the 4th stripe and flying reserve

Again, poor information. Most of those "young" guys have over 10 years with the company, see the writing on the wall and want to get a type rating and some recent PIC time for the job hunt. Don't think it is a thirst for a 4th stripe. It is a thirst for a marketable resume, but I guess it depends on YOUR perspective as to why YOU think someone took a Capt bid.

With the proposed cuts that are going to take place the average UAL Captain will be a 15+ year employee. The F/O's on the bus will probably be 10-12 years with the company. The UA pilot seniority in seats is going to look very much like the US Air list has for years.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-06-05 11:36:01 and read 6393 times.



Quoting NA (Reply 145):
Maybe, but still the 737-500 is one of the worst fuel guzzlers around.

It is more efficient than the 732s it would replace in those markets. It's all relative.

And the 736 is even worse!  Smile

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Ocracoke
Posted 2008-06-05 12:13:42 and read 6292 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 127):
That may be the problem, shouldn't they be in panic mode? When DL announced their cutbacks oil was no where near what the current price is, if DL is done cutting they are going to have some serious problems that are only going to be magnified when/if they merge.

Three weeks ago, oil was high. As stated in another thread, DL closed the volunteer layoff package three weeks ago. Was it two (?) weeks ago DL announced the closing of some cities (ie..OTP)? I'm sure DL, along with everyone else, is no where near done cutting.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-06-05 12:50:15 and read 6197 times.

This is awful to hear about the job losses. Thanks again to those that are profiting nicely on oil, our industry is falling apart. Folks, this supply versus demand bs is bs. Demand has fallen, and people have cut back. Now its going up due to the dollar, storms, and the list goes on. Perhaps one day, we can sit back and watch these rich bastards file for unemployment, as I pray we find an alternate source of gas very soon.

I wish the best to the employees of UA, and I hope things turn around soon.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-06-05 13:01:47 and read 6157 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 117):
Quoting 777fan (Reply 116):
Oil prices have dropped 10% in six trading days. Anything can happen.

The Wall Street Journal has an article today stating that an increasing number of commodities traders believe oil and other commodities (grains, metals) have hit a bubble and are on their way down precisely because such a huge influx of money has flown in the commodties markets and forced up prices just as what happened in the tech boom and bust of the late 90s.

1-forward contracts (say 2011-2012) certainly supports higher prices. 80%-90% is due to fundamentals..even if we take 20 of oil as "speculation", that would still put it somewhere around $100.
2-Increasing the the value of the dollar (via increasing interest rates, removing money from the system, etc) would lower prices
3-Other countries such as India/China removing fuel subsidies would help as well. That being said, I don't expect to see oil go down below $70-$80, even in a bear market.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 114):

DL's traffic report for May looks very diffferent from UA's. They have record LFs on their domestic and int'l systems and have not reduced capacity at all - but SHIFTED it between from their domestic to int'l systems. NW reported similar results.

Record LF"s doesn't = profitabiliity....
UA still has revenue mix geared more towards international than domestic. UA has multiple hubs such as ORD, LAX, IAH, SFO to work out of where as DL basically has ATL and now JFK.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 122):
Well whether you UA fanboys like it or not, a legacy going Chapter 7 is just what the US aviation market needs to let the rest of them have a fighting chance to survive until either oil comes down or an alternate to fossil fuel comes on the market which is not likely until mid-next decade. UA's announcements IMO are just the tip of the iceberg for them. I fully expect them to liquidate by fall. Sorry, just the way it is.

....Given fall is only a few months away and given UA still have a few billion $ in the bank/credit as well as cutting down expenses I guess they'll be liquidating within the next few months...go figure..

For a 35-45 year old, one would figure one has more common sense than that.

edit:"open interest" in oil futures contracts has dropped quite substantially (a sign of waning speculation), yet we've seen oil go up $6.00..now is it "short covering" or "speculation" once again, we won't know right away.

[Edited 2008-06-05 13:07:42]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 13:50:44 and read 6062 times.



Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 148):
I'm sure DL, along with everyone else, is no where near done cutting.

Totally agreed, all the airlines are going to be trimming quite a bit going forward, I was more trying to make the point that if WorldTraveler thinks that DL has already made/anounced all the cuts that they are going to make and solved the problem that he has a bit of a shock coming.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: PITIngres
Posted 2008-06-05 13:55:57 and read 6048 times.



Quoting NA (Reply 145):
Maybe, but still the 737-500 is one of the worst fuel guzzlers around. I have the LH Balance 2007 report in front of me, the 737-500 and less so, the 737-300 are, by far, the thirstiest continental airplanes in the fleet (735: 8,46 liter/100km/passenger, 733: 7,29 - for comparison A319: 5,97, A320: 5,39). Per passenger a 735 needs roughly 40% more fuel than a A319.

Note of caution here: surely that's per seat, not per passenger. It only becomes per passenger when you plant a warm butt in the seat. If you can't consistently fill the extra 16 or so seats that the A319 has, it's losing part of its advantage right there.

Also, I'd be curious to know if the fuel usage profiles are similar between the two. For instance, supposedly the MD80 isn't much worse than the 737 on short hops, but loses out on cruise. (Whether this comparison is against the classic or the NG, I don't know.) Is there a similar effect for the 735 vs A319? I don't know.

I don't doubt for a minute that the 735 is a fuel hog compared to the A319, but I think the 40% is likely to be a worst case, possibly ameliorated by assigning each type to routes appropriate for it.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: B777ER
Posted 2008-06-05 14:14:57 and read 5996 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 140):
Google the words "bakken formation"

The oil bubble will burst - and I will be gleeful

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have read up on the bakken oil. After the USGS report came out last month, recoverable oil is less than 4 billion barrels. The US uses 70 BILLION barrels a year. The bakken will not even come close to helping us ween off mid-east oil.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 150):
edit:"open interest" in oil futures contracts has dropped quite substantially (a sign of waning speculation), yet we've seen oil go up $6.00..now is it "short covering" or "speculation" once again, we won't know right away.

Of course we know why...if you followed the days developments that is. The ECB (European Central Bank) head came out and stated that rates may rise. If the ECB does that, the USD falls against the Euro (like it did today). That is why oil shot up today...because one guy in Europe says he might do something. That is how flipping volatile the energy market is with fossil fuel. That is why we NEED alternative energy to rid ourselves of oil shock.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 14:46:10 and read 5909 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 153):
Sorry to burst your bubble but I have read up on the bakken oil. After the USGS report came out last month, recoverable oil is less than 4 billion barrels. The US uses 70 BILLION barrels a year. The bakken will not even come close to helping us ween off mid-east oil.

Yes and no, the bakkens have just under 4 billion barrels of oil that are recoverable using current technology at profitable levels. However there are an estimated 167 billion barrels of shale-oil in the formation that could be recovered using technology that is still in its infancy however its a more expensive process, but as oil supplies begin to dwindle and the price of oil goes up its more likely that that technology will be developed further and employed. Its also worth noting that the 4 largest known deposits of oil-shale are here in the US.


http://money.netscape.cnn.com/story....F20080428%2F1512753592.htm&sc=1333

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_Formation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_extraction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_reserves

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-05 15:25:08 and read 5809 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 127):
That may be the problem, shouldn't they be in panic mode? When DL announced their cutbacks oil was no where near what the current price is, if DL is done cutting they are going to have some serious problems that are only going to be magnified when/if they merge.

no they do not need to panic. eliminating 10% of capacity 6 months in advance and eliminating 10% of capacity on 2 months notice yields the same revenue results. The difference comes in cost- long range planning will allow greater ability to reduce costs than what you can do in a rushed situation. ALWAYS.

Quoting Planefxr (Reply 131):
NW did a good job of restructuring those leases, originally 1.5 million/month renogiated down to less than 500 thousand/month. 16 747-400's at 1,000,000/month savings, I don't think they will park them in the mojave, they may park overnight in ATL though.

If they are at $500K, then it will be hard to replace them for that price. Long range I expect to see the 744s replaced by 773ERs but that won't happen overnight.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 133):
This has been said countless times but ill-informed commentators continue to believe otherwise: load factors DO NOT MATTER! They are irrelevant.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 150):
1-forward contracts (say 2011-2012) certainly supports higher prices. 80%-90% is due to fundamentals..even if we take 20 of oil as "speculation", that would still put it somewhere around $100.
2-Increasing the the value of the dollar (via increasing interest rates, removing money from the system, etc) would lower prices
3-Other countries such as India/China removing fuel subsidies would help as well. That being said, I don't expect to see oil go down below $70-$80, even in a bear market.

LFs aren't the whole story but a basic rule of revenue management is that if you are removing capacity, you should be able to boost capacity. If UA can't do that, they are screwing up the formula - and my guess is that they are thinking that they have reduced capacity therefore they can reject the lowest priced travelers. Problem is the fares they are accepting have not increased as fast as the revenue they have lost from lower LFs. If you think UA is doing it right, I merely point you to UA's 1st quarter results which were downright hellish compared with every other US carrier. UA had similar traffic trends in the first quarter to what they have reported now. There is a reason why UA is slashing capacity at a far higher rate than any other US carrier and it is because they are in survival mode. Unfortunately, if they don't figure out how to right the ship, they will sink in less than a year. It doesn't matter how many hubs they have or how big the network is when the ship goes down; it matters if they can make money and right now UA is far behind every other carrier in that regard.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-06-05 15:31:39 and read 5773 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
a basic rule of revenue management is that if you are removing capacity, you should be able to boost capacity

huh?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: RampRat74
Posted 2008-06-05 15:44:26 and read 5760 times.

I have a feeling that SEA-NRT and HNL-NRT are going bye-bye. These are two PTP routes that they can cut, to free up a couple of 777's to replace the 747-400's that they are grounding.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 16:06:57 and read 5692 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
LFs aren't the whole story but a basic rule of revenue management is that if you are removing capacity, you should be able to boost capacity.

I'm going to assume that you ment load factor not capacity for what you should be able to boost.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
If UA can't do that, they are screwing up the formula - and my guess is that they are thinking that they have reduced capacity therefore they can reject the lowest priced travelers

UA has been extremely aggressive in raising fares this year that is why their load factor is dropping as they trade yield for volume, the total number of passengers that they carry will drop. They are not pulling capacity out yet because UA needs that capacity during the second and third quarter (which are traditionally UAs strongest quarters) however come fourth quarter UA will pull that capacity out of service as the fourth and first quarter is when its no longer needed. So your probably preparing a retort something along the lines of "UA is stupid because they didn't wait to raise fares untill they pulled the capacity out!" theres an simple reason why they haven't waited its alot easier to raise fares slowly over the coarse of a year then its is just to do it all at one time, in addition to that it gives UA a chance to test the markets reaction to higher fares out. If city XYZ will pay the higher fare that UA is on average now charging, and the loads don't suffer why pull the capacity out? Now the reality is that there are a number of cities that are seeing a drop in loads due to the higher fares those are the cities that are going to see less seats offered for sale.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
If you think UA is doing it right, I merely point you to UA's 1st quarter results which were downright hellish compared with every other US carrier.

As has been explained to you by a huge number of people on this board UA ALWAYS performs on average worse then their peers in the first and fourth quarter due to its its network structure. However they also do better then average then their peers during the second and third also because of the way UAs network is structured. At the end of the year it averages out.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
no they do not need to panic. eliminating 10% of capacity 6 months in advance and eliminating 10% of capacity on 2 months notice yields the same revenue results. The difference comes in cost- long range planning will allow greater ability to reduce costs than what you can do in a rushed situation. ALWAYS.

Long range planning is great IF you can accurately predict the future. 6 months ago who could have predicted that oil would be as costly as it was? Companies plan ahead as both UA and DL did however those plans have to be adjusted as the current situation is known and new projections are made. AA UA and CO have all updated their plans since the 1st quarter results were known, DL will be doing the same because if they don't history has shown that companies that don't adapt to the changing market place will fail ALWAYS.

[Edited 2008-06-05 16:08:21]

[Edited 2008-06-05 16:09:34]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-05 16:14:29 and read 5666 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
If they are at $500K, then it will be hard to replace them for that price. Long range I expect to see the 744s replaced by 773ERs but that won't happen overnight.

I would expect to see 773's on DL property as well. I believe that approximately a half dozen or so of NW's 744's are less than 10 years old some as recent as 2002, alot of cycles left on those frames. As much as everyone likes to rave about cargo and how profitable it is, I believe that those 742's are the ones that are not going be around very long, and no the 744's will not be converted over to cargo to take their place. The cargo operation at NW is not the cash cow it once was, and from what I have heard is only in place to secure slots.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-06-05 19:57:22 and read 5433 times.



Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 157):
I have a feeling that SEA-NRT and HNL-NRT are going bye-bye.

Dunno about that - IIRC, HNL-NRT does really well...in LF and yield! Feel free to correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong.


777fan

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Flybynight
Posted 2008-06-05 20:12:03 and read 5425 times.



Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 157):
I have a feeling that SEA-NRT and HNL-NRT are going bye-bye. These are two PTP routes that they can cut, to free up a couple of 777's to replace the 747-400's that they are grounding.


I heard SEA is getting more UA flights (on the news yesterday in fact). Seattle's economy is doing well and a lot of that is due to business in Asia. I would think cutting SEA - NRT would not be wise.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-05 20:35:52 and read 5375 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):
LFs aren't the whole story but a basic rule of revenue management is that if you are removing capacity, you should be able to boost capacity.

I'm going to assume that you ment load factor not capacity for what you should be able to boost.

yes... thank you. I can't type and have someone talking to me at the same time.

Yes, if you reduce capacity, LF should be able to be pushed up. Every other carrier has been able to do it... just not UA.

Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
UA has been extremely aggressive in raising fares this year that is why their load factor is dropping as they trade yield for volume, the total number of passengers that they carry will drop.

every other carrier has been raising fares too. Why aren't their loads falling off? Again, UA is performing in ways that are unique and different from the rest of the industry... and in a negative way.

Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
As has been explained to you by a huge number of people on this board UA ALWAYS performs on average worse then their peers in the first and fourth quarter due to its its network structure.

uh.... UA's horrific performance was in the 1st quarter.

And DL has one of the most cyclical revenue streams as a result of their large European operation... their cyclicality is far higher than UA's. The whole reason DL is expanding into other int'l markets is to lessen their dependence on the summer peaks of Europe. Summer is a peak travel period for airlines around the world... how you PLAN for the other 3 quarters is what defines success.

Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
However they also do better then average then their peers during the second and third also because of the way UAs network is structured.

no.... UA's performance on a cumulative basis has significantly lagged the industry.

Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
Long range planning is great IF you can accurately predict the future. 6 months ago who could have predicted that oil would be as costly as it was?

oil didn't just start going up a couple months ago. It has been on an upward path for over a year. What has happened with oil prices and with economy have happened to airlines before. The only event that was unique in the history of the industry was 9/11

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-05 20:51:09 and read 5340 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
What has happened with oil prices and with economy have happened to airlines before.

Not to this extreme, not even close. Couple the fact that the economy is struggling and you have the perfect storm. Given the lack of liquidity in the market and I would not want to be headed down the path of BK in today's environment, that would not be good at all.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 21:18:11 and read 5265 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
Yes, if you reduce capacity, LF should be able to be pushed up. Every other carrier has been able to do it... just not UA.

Only if everything else stays the same, the moment you start throwing fare increases into the mix LF starts dropping.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
As has been explained to you by a huge number of people on this board UA ALWAYS performs on average worse then their peers in the first and fourth quarter due to its its network structure.

uh.... UA's horrific performance was in the 1st quarter.

Yes and 1st quarter is traditionally UAs weakest followed closely by 4th quarter which is why I mentioned it, 2nd and 3rd quarter are typically UAs strongest.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
And DL has one of the most cyclical revenue streams as a result of their large European operation... their cyclicality is far higher than UA's

No its not.....

UA
1st 08 4711
4th 07 4562
3rd 07 5527
2nd 07 5213

$965 Million Maximum Difference in Revenue.

DL
1st 08 4766
4th 07 4683
3rd 07 5277
2nd 07 5043

$594 Million Maximum Difference in Revenue.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
no.... UA's performance on a cumulative basis has significantly lagged the industry.

How?

UA generated more free cash flow last year then any other US carrier.
DLs PRASM up 6% UA up 7.1%
07 Pre tax income (excluding special items/restructuring) UA 606M , DL 625M

UA seems to be right in the ballpark....

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):
Quoting United1 (Reply 158):
Long range planning is great IF you can accurately predict the future. 6 months ago who could have predicted that oil would be as costly as it was?

oil didn't just start going up a couple months ago. It has been on an upward path for over a year. What has happened with oil prices and with economy have happened to airlines before. The only event that was unique in the history of the industry was 9/11

No one could have predicted how expensive oil would get even 6 months ago.

[Edited 2008-06-05 21:36:07]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2008-06-05 22:51:41 and read 5143 times.

True shame...........good new though 737s just got alot cheaper.
What are the chances of NW pick up these 744s? maybe turning them into 744BCFs?

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 140):
The oil bubble will burst - and I will be gleeful.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2008-06-05 23:03:28 and read 5126 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 165):
What are the chances of NW pick up these 744s? maybe turning them into 744BCFs?

United has not clarified if the 6 will be leased or owned birds. Of the current fleet of 30, 21 are owned.

However if UA follows what it did post 9/11, it parked the planes based on having highest lease rates(not an issue this time as they were heavily discounted in ch11), or based on planes that basically timed out and needed a heavy maintenance check.

So odds are the any 744s parked today would require big investment in maintenance, let alone cabin conversions and painting and likely not something NWA would be pursuing in this enviroment.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-06-05 23:06:04 and read 5105 times.



Quoting B777ER (Reply 153):
Of course we know why...if you followed the days developments that is. The ECB (European Central Bank) head came out and stated that rates may rise. If the ECB does that, the USD falls against the Euro (like it did today). That is why oil shot up today...because one guy in Europe says he might do something. That is how flipping volatile the energy market is with fossil fuel. That is why we NEED alternative energy to rid ourselves of oil shock.

..my point was not because the value of the dollar decreased (my comment below suggested the relation between oil and the dollar), my point was who were purchasing the contracts.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 150):
2-Increasing the the value of the dollar (via increasing interest rates, removing money from the system, etc) would lower prices



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 155):

LFs aren't the whole story but a basic rule of revenue management is that if you are removing capacity, you should be able to boost capacity. If UA can't do that, they are screwing up the formula - and my guess is that they are thinking that they have reduced capacity therefore they can reject the lowest priced travelers. Problem is the fares they are accepting have not increased as fast as the revenue they have lost from lower LFs. If you think UA is doing it right, I merely point you to UA's 1st quarter results which were downright hellish compared with every other US carrier. UA had similar traffic trends in the first quarter to what they have reported now. There is a reason why UA is slashing capacity at a far higher rate than any other US carrier and it is because they are in survival mode. Unfortunately, if they don't figure out how to right the ship, they will sink in less than a year. It doesn't matter how many hubs they have or how big the network is when the ship goes down; it matters if they can make money and right now UA is far behind every other carrier in that regard.

UA has more than enough cash/credit in the books to last more than a year. They can sell of their m/x as well as FF to raise more money. Their NRT/LHR slots alone are worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

They are removing old inefficient planes and firing employees..this is help stem the losses.

Sorry to burst your bubble friend but UA isn't going anywhere anytime soon.  no 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 162):

And DL has one of the most cyclical revenue streams as a result of their large European operation... their cyclicality is far higher than UA's. The whole reason DL is expanding into other int'l markets is to lessen their dependence on the summer peaks of Europe. Summer is a peak travel period for airlines around the world... how you PLAN for the other 3 quarters is what defines success.

DL's "revenue mix" is still behind that of UA,AA and other legacy carriers...hence DL's "drive" to expand internationally.

Apropos...doesn't seem to me as if UA is failing to "PLAN" either... no 

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2008-06-05 23:09:42 and read 5105 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 166):
So odds are the any 744s parked today would require big investment in maintenance, let alone cabin conversions and painting and likely not something NWA would be pursuing in this enviroment.

Thanks LAXintl. I guess it was more wishful thinking. Not so much on the PAX side but 6 new 744BCFs would be nice for NW Cargo and they could replace some of the 742Fs.

[Edited 2008-06-05 23:10:31]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United Airline
Posted 2008-06-05 23:50:29 and read 5062 times.

So these planes will return to service with UA one day once the oil prices go down a bit right?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-05 23:54:32 and read 5058 times.



Quoting United Airline (Reply 169):
So these planes will return to service with UA one day once the oil prices go down a bit right?

Anything is possible but more then likely once they are retired they are going to be gone for good from UAs fleet.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-06-06 00:58:08 and read 4994 times.

My understanding of the ac retirements is that UA is attempting to put in a clause that they cannot be used against UA...for the 737 fleet probably not an issue as most will either beer can or Africa or package freighter. From what I have read the 737 has become a high mtc issue. The UA 1500 furlough number does not include flt crew or front line so that number will at least double if not triple. Friends at AA say they are hearing 5000 plus over there. UA ALPA members yesterday afternoon were sending text msgs to each other that Tilton was gone by the way.....no confirmation anywhere.

As one news article put it...the airlines are back to the post 9/11 posture of slash.

Oh yeah...if anyone doesn't think that this round of cutting may position a carrier for merger down the road.....grin.

[Edited 2008-06-06 00:59:44]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United Airline
Posted 2008-06-06 02:41:37 and read 4906 times.

The B 737-300s might not be back again. But what about the B 747-400s? They need them and they aren't that old..........

Seems that UA is in a mess.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2008-06-06 03:22:18 and read 4852 times.

I cant see them dropping HNLNRT; that is a very popular route with Japanese tourists from the Home Islands, and like was said earlier, doing very well yield-wise.

A while back, when NWA still had the 747-100s, the last -100s they had, in a semi-high-density configuration, did nothing but run and forth between HNL and NRT; the route is that popular.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2008-06-06 04:14:07 and read 4790 times.



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 171):
UA ALPA members yesterday afternoon were sending text msgs to each other that Tilton was gone by the way..

Gone where....the bank, Starbucks, shopping?

He is not going anywhere in the immediate future unless IMHO something happens dramatically, possibly as a result of an alliance with CO.
He saved UA from CH7, but he needs to move on now, I just cannot see it will be shortly.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-06 15:20:29 and read 4467 times.

On a bit more of a positive note UA is adding 10 additional daily flights to Hawaii for the Summer travel season beginning June 15th and does not plan to cut flights this winter below the normal 20 flights a day.

http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacif...008/06/02/daily50.html?jst=b_ln_hl

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-06 16:40:04 and read 4413 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 164):
Only if everything else stays the same, the moment you start throwing fare increases into the mix LF starts dropping.

yes, but every other carrier has taken fare increases and still managed to increase LFs. Why do you continue to think that UA is supposed to be given some special pass to break all the rules? UA is no more exempt from gravity or the fundamentals of revenue management than any other airline. People like you - obviously some of whom have been defending UA's performance in downtown Chicago and Elk Grove - are precisely why UA is trying to keep from falling over the cliff.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 167):
UA has more than enough cash/credit in the books to last more than a year.

but UA had to renegotiate its credit terms to keep from becoming in default this winter.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 167):
DL's "revenue mix" is still behind that of UA,AA and other legacy carriers...

DL's revenue is better than 100% of industry average. More importantly, DL's costs are the lowest in the industry. DL has far more staying power than UA - which is probably why DL has been rated as being in the best position among the network carriers to weather the storm.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 172):
Seems that UA is in a mess.

you said it.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-06 17:15:48 and read 4368 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
People like you - obviously some of whom have been defending UA's performance in downtown Chicago and Elk Grove - are precisely why UA is trying to keep from falling over the cliff.

Excuse me? How am I or anyone else on this board responsible for UA anymore then you are responsible for DL? Cause just as a reminder in case you have forgotten YOU DON'T WORK FOR DELTA!!!!!!!!!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 167):
UA has more than enough cash/credit in the books to last more than a year.

but UA had to renegotiate its credit terms to keep from becoming in default this winter.

As DL is expected to as well later this year.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
DL's revenue is better than 100% of industry average.

By what measure?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
DL's costs are the lowest in the industry

Not by a long shot are they the lowest in the industry and those costs happened to rise faster then UAs AAs and COs just this last quarter in fact only NWs (as a reminder thats DLs merger partner) and USs rose more then DLs did.

CASM/CASM excluding fuel 1st Qtr 08

NW +21.5%/+4.5%
US +16.7%/?
DL +16%/+4%
UA +15.9/+2.4
AA +15.8/+3.3%
CO +11.6%/-1%

So tell me how id DL getting its controllable costs in check WorldTraveler? Fuel is one thing but DL had a 4% rise in there operating cost excluding fuel thats more then UA with a 2.4% rise. You seem to have all the answers so how are they going to do it? Especially with there upcoming merger costs (estimated at a billion+) and all of the raises that they are handing out to the F/As and pilots.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2008-06-06 17:39:44 and read 4332 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
DL's revenue is better than 100% of industry average.

Not according to Glen Hauenstein

Per his last chat transcript available on dlnet;

Quote:
Q.
How do we plan to get to RASM parity with the industry?
A.
We have moved from approx 85 to now averaging 95. Like losing weight it is always harder to get the last few pounds off, so getting from 95 to 100 is quite a challenge. It is not only the changes we will be making to the network, and moving more widebodies offshore, but it is as much dependent on Delta. Providing an industry leading product that our customers want to buy. I am confident between the service improvements we have achieved together over the past years combined with the reallocation of airplanes and continued improvements from our sales, marketing, and RM teams that we can achieve 100% of industry.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-06 18:22:57 and read 4277 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 177):
By what measure?

Revenue per ASM on a mileage adjusted basis. It's the industry standard for comparing financial performance between airlines.

Quoting United1 (Reply 177):
As DL is expected to as well later this year.

yes, after they merge with NW and combine their balance sheets. NOT BEFORE.

Quoting United1 (Reply 177):
Not by a long shot are they the lowest in the industry and those costs happened to rise faster then UAs AAs and COs just this last quarter in fact only NWs (as a reminder thats DLs merger partner) and USs rose more then DLs did.

you obviously do not know about comparing statistics between airlines. You have to mileage adjust statistics because airlines because every airline has different lengths of haul. Revenue and costs have to be adjusted to the same measurement in order to compare performance between airlines. On a mileage adjusted basis, DL has the lowest costs among US network airlines.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 178):
Per his last chat transcript available on dlnet;

post the date... this is not current info.

This is:

Based on the most recently available ATA data, Delta's consolidated length of haul adjusted passenger unit revenue (PRASM) was 101% of industry average PRASM (excluding Delta), up from 86% in 2005 when the company began its network restructuring. This represents the first quarter in eight years that Delta has exceeded industry average.

This if from DL's 8K filed with the SEC filed on Apr 23, 2008 along with its press release announcing its financial results for the first quarter.

Now, tell me again which airlines are trailing the industry? It sure isn't Delta.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2008-06-06 19:00:29 and read 4225 times.

I would like to see proof that eliminating the 747 base at IAD will save any money (aside from fuel efficency in switching to the 777, which has a lower CASM or RASM (?) than the 744, in UA's configuration). To me, this sounds just like a diplomatic rationale to explain to ALPA when:

1) DCAFO already has every fleet type based there. Its not like IAD is a small operation for UA, its the opposite, Chicago is the only bigger operation.

2) Hourly pay is the same for 747 and 777 captains, so there is no savings in terms of salary.

3) UA, to my knowledge, did not pay for or provide housing to 747 crews who came to IAD when the base opened (2005/6?), threfore, it doesn't cost them any money to have crews reporting there (see point 1)

4) I'm on vacation and don't have the numbers in front of me (LAXIntl can confirm or deny this), but I believe IAD FRA is one of UA's most profitable city pairs. 3 daily frequencies and the route in which the refurbished premium cabins were deployed on. UA916/17 (the 747 flight) goes out full almost every day, and while they did manage fine with the 777 on the flight, it seems as though the fuel economics for such a short hop would favour a 747 to carry the heavy loads.

As I said in the beginning I'm still not convinced on this one....

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-06 19:10:01 and read 4199 times.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 178):
Not according to Glen Hauenstein

Per his last chat transcript available on dlnet;

That info is Q4. Old chat. Worldtraveler is correct 101 percent as of April 08.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-06 19:22:43 and read 4169 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 179):
You have to mileage adjust statistics because airlines because every airline has different lengths of haul.

I don't know who told you that you have to "adjust" CASM numbers but that may be the root of your problem of posting information on here that is just not accurate. I posted CASM results which are what the industry uses to measure itself against the rest, all CASM results are based off a common measurement ....how much does it take to fly one seat one mile....no "adjustment" is necessary.
DLs costs rose faster then UA AA and COs did last quarter.......my question to you (since you know everything) is how is DL going to get those costs under control especially since they are just about to complete a rather expensive merger with an airline whos costs are going up even faster then DLs are?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 179):
Quoting United1 (Reply 177):
As DL is expected to as well later this year.

yes, after they merge with NW and combine their balance sheets. NOT BEFORE.

Thats not what the analysts are saying.....DL will have to renegotiate with its lenders to get a covenant waiver at some point this year with or without a merger........

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 179):
Now, tell me again which airlines are trailing the industry? It sure isn't Delta.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 179):
Quoting United1 (Reply 177):
By what measure?

Revenue per ASM on a mileage adjusted basis. It's the industry standard for comparing financial performance between airlines.

Its great that DL is at 101% of average but that doesn't mean that DL leads the pack either, industry average is just that the midpoint of all the carriers results combined, there are some carriers that exceed DLs numbers and some that do not.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: UnitedSuperDC8
Posted 2008-06-06 19:33:41 and read 4157 times.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 180):
I would like to see proof that eliminating the 747 base at IAD will save any money (aside from fuel efficency in switching to the 777, which has a lower CASM or RASM (?) than the 744, in UA's configuration).

I think there are several reasons. United has decided to remove 747s from the fleet and needs to cut somewhere.

By keeping them in LAX/SFO/ORD they can schedule the aircraft more effectively. The flight schedule and maintenance schedules at these cities allow the aircraft to be more productive. There are more 747 movements and west coast operations eat up less hours allowing more flights.

Also, you don't have a small pilot base that is not as efficient as a larger base. A small base lowers the productivity. It isn't about pay - but the waste of staffing. When you are talking pilot salaries this adds up fast. Plus, you have to make sure that small base is getting the adequate flying/training. This is easier with a larger base.

By eliminating 747 rotations at IAD, they can elminate spare parts inventory.

While each item individually may not be enough to close a base, I think taken together with the yield of the IAD 747 routes vs flying them from on another route, and the need to eliminate several 747s from the fleet - it allows United to use the remaining 747 fleet more effectively.

I really doubt having to play nice with ALPA/DCAFO really factors in anywhere. And why should it??

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-06 19:38:24 and read 4132 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 182):
Its great that DL is at 101% of average but that doesn't mean that DL leads the pack either, industry average is just that the midpoint of all the carriers results combined, there are some carriers that exceed DLs numbers and some that do not.

It is basically average, you are right. Keep in mind that DL 18 months ago was at 85 percent of average, pretty pathetic. International expansion and fleet utilization, some might argue over utilization have brought DL to average. Many routes are maturing and the revenue is continuing to get better, the goal by year end is to hit 105 percent of average, unfortunately fuel is well above average, it is like 1 step forward 2 steps back it seems.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-06 19:42:04 and read 4117 times.



Quoting Planefxr (Reply 184):
It is basically average, you are right. Keep in mind that DL 18 months ago was at 85 percent of average, pretty pathetic. International expansion and fleet utilization, some might argue over utilization have brought DL to average. Many routes are maturing and the revenue is continuing to get better, the goal by year end is to hit 105 percent of average, unfortunately fuel is well above average, it is like 1 step forward 2 steps back it seems.

Yeah totally agreed about going one step forward and two steps back in this environment fuel is whats killing all the air carriers right now, and a 16% bump is a great achievement that DL employees should be proud of.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2008-06-06 19:52:38 and read 4100 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 179):
Based on the most recently available ATA data, Delta's consolidated length of haul adjusted passenger unit revenue (PRASM) was 101% of industry average PRASM (excluding Delta),

Delta doesn't make that claim in their 10-Q filed two days later:

"Revenue per available seat mile (“RASM”) improvement. We have made significant progress in increasing our unit revenue in comparison to the industry and have a goal of improving our RASM to more than 100% of industry average in 2008 to improve profitability and mitigate high fuel prices. In order to meet this goal, we have increased systemwide domestic fares, boosted fuel surcharges, increased international fares and increased select service fees."

This makes it sound as if they are still working on getting it above average.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2008-06-06 20:12:38 and read 4058 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
DL's revenue is better than 100% of industry average.

No its not.. no 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
More importantly, DL's costs are the lowest in the industry.

Not by much and not for too long.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):
DL has far more staying power than UA - which is probably why DL has been rated as being in the best position among the network carriers to weather the storm.

It what sense does DL have "far more staying power"? If UA cut costs and eventually become profitable, it will around as well. We're not talking about a 3rd-rate carrier here.  no 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 176):

but UA had to renegotiate its credit terms to keep from becoming in default this winter.

So will DL probably.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-06 20:17:09 and read 4043 times.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 187):
No its not..

Do you have a list? Or where can someone find that information. DL claims to have 101 percent of industry average RASM as of 4/08.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2008-06-06 20:41:22 and read 3998 times.



Quoting Planefxr (Reply 188):
Do you have a list? Or where can someone find that information. DL claims to have 101 percent of industry average RASM as of 4/08.

I pretty sure that this was on DLnet.......but I have seen this too

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-06 20:47:47 and read 3997 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 189):
I pretty sure that this was on DLnet.......but I have seen this too

Yeah, I seen DL's numbers. I was wondering if there was an industry wide reference that compared all carriers, you know sort of a one stop overview?

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-06 20:52:35 and read 3990 times.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 186):
This makes it sound as if they are still working on getting it above average.

that is their full year goal. They have met it for the 1st quarter. We'll see how they do for the next 3 but they are well on track.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 187):
It what sense does DL have "far more staying power"? If UA cut costs and eventually become profitable, it will around as well. We're not talking about a 3rd-rate carrier here.

no, we're talking about a carrier who was years ahead of other network carriers going into BK and didn't come out w/ the job done right but many people's assesments. We're talking about a carrier that posted results far, far worse than other carriers in the most recent quarter. We're talking about the carrier that had to cut the greatest amount of capacity among the US carriers.. .and still can't manage to keep its LF up despite the cuts to date - the only US airline that has failed to manage traffic to capacity in every one of its key market regions.

Yes, we are talking about a 3rd rate carrier - or at least one that is run by 3rd rate mgmt.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 187):
So will DL probably.

]

at least you hope so you will be able to argue that DL is in as bad of a shape as other carriers.

the reality is that multiple analysts have put DL in the best position to make it among US network airlines. UA and AA? much further down the list.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 189):
I pretty sure that this was on DLnet.......but I have seen this too

search DL's SEC filings. there is nothing said to the employees of this kind of nature that isn't said to the SEC; they can't say this kind of stuff just to employees.


as much as anyone here wants to deflect it, UA is in crisis and is highly fragile. They have been spurned by multiple merger partners and are working hard to repeat their pre-BK performance from post 9/11. UA didn't shrink to profitability then and they won't now.

[Edited 2008-06-06 20:55:44]

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-06 21:09:39 and read 3955 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
search DL's SEC filings. there is nothing said to the employees of this kind of nature that isn't said to the SEC; they can't say this kind of stuff just to employees.

I really don't think DL industry average RASM whether current or forward looking is SEC sensitive material, and yes by the way they have mentioned on both employee platforms and on earnings calls.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-07 00:10:52 and read 3804 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
no, we're talking about a carrier who was years ahead of other network carriers going into BK and didn't come out w/ the job done right but many people's assesments.

Were talking about a carrier that filed for BK before DL and NW did of course UAs costs are going to be higher, DL and NW saw what UAs (and the rest of the industries) and aimed ever so slightly lower.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
We're talking about a carrier that posted results far, far worse than other carriers in the most recent quarter

Were talking about a carrier that ALWAYS posts its worst loss in the first quarter, UA was expected to post the biggest loss among its peers first quarter and they did so. Next quarter and third they are not projected to post anywhere near the biggest loss amongst the network carriers, also UA is not projected to loose the most this year. As has been pointed out and proved to you on this thread UAs revenue is much more cyclical then DLs is.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
We're talking about the carrier that had to cut the greatest amount of capacity among the US carriers

Maybe in total numbers aircraft/seats but CO is tied with UA for pulling the highest percentage of capacity out of its network. The analysts were saying that is would take a 20% cut on capacity to right the industry, UA and CO both pulled out 17% AA is not much farther behind and DL hasn't announced what they are doing yet.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
and still can't manage to keep its LF up despite the cuts to date

UA has not cut much of anything yet this year, LF are dropping because UA is aggressively raising fares and reducing the number of seats that are sold as loss leaders. UA is trading LF for yield and based upon UAs yield numbers YTD they are doing a fantastic job of it.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
the only US airline that has failed to manage traffic to capacity in every one of its key market regions.

How?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
Yes, we are talking about a 3rd rate carrier

Not even close to being true......I'm going to give you a piece of advice even though I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears.....GROW UP!!!!!! No one likes the way that you go around on these boards raving about DL, we're all just a bit tired of hearing it from you. I've even heard DL Cool-Aiders cite you as being the reason why people hate DL on this board, I'm not going to go that far yet but its really close to being true in my eyes. So far I've read posts from you on how horrible that US is run, slamming AA, knock COs management, knock UA and even take a few potshots at NW. Dude you are out of control.....

There isnt a single carrier out there that does everything right and in the same vein there isn't a single carrier that does everything wrong. All of the US Majors have very very proud pasts and all of there employees have the right to be proud of their airlines. DL has no more right to exist then any of the rest of them do and is any less falable then UA is. I for one am rather glad that you don't reflect how the vast majority of DLs employees actualy are because if you did DL would be screwed....

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
the reality is that multiple analysts have put DL in the best position to make it among US network airlines. UA and AA? much further down the list.

They may rate DL higher for the moment, but I would love to see how they rate a combined DL/NW for their ability to make it. Oh and those analysts that ranked the airlines also said that the differences between the airlines outlooks are rather small, in other words UA and AA may be drowning in 500 feet of water but DL is drowning in 499....not much of a difference.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
at least you hope so you will be able to argue that DL is in as bad of a shape as other carriers.

Most of the analyst believe that DL (as a stand alone carrier) will have to renegotiate one of their covenants by the fourth quarter or they will be in technical default by the end of the year on it.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 191):
as much as anyone here wants to deflect it, UA is in crisis and is highly fragile.

UA is no worse off then DL AA CO US or NW.....the difference between UA and DL right now is really simple UA has made changes DL hasn't done much yet....but don't worry they will be.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-06-07 05:51:42 and read 3652 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 193):
Were talking about a carrier that filed for BK before DL and NW did of course UAs costs are going to be higher, DL and NW saw what UAs (and the rest of the industries) and aimed ever so slightly lower.

but UA didn't get its costs under control during its BK. They didn't turn their business around when they got out of BK despite having been in BK for longer than any other US airline and having spent more on BK than any other airline. That's not my assessment... there isn't an analyst who thinks UA did a good job in BK compared with other carriers. THAT's why they are struggling now.

Quoting United1 (Reply 193):
UA has not cut much of anything yet this year,

actually, they have. if you would read UA's traffic statistics you would see they have been pulling capacity out but they can't keep their LF from falling. Repeating once again, UA is the only major US airline that is seeing falling LFs in every major region of their network DESPITE having reduced capacity. That indicates serious problems and there is no reasonable or acceptable explanation for that to be happening at UA but not at other carriers. But it does explain why UA's first quarter loss was so much higher than any other carrier's.

Quoting United1 (Reply 193):
Maybe in total numbers aircraft/seats but CO is tied with UA for pulling the highest percentage of capacity out of its network.

which is why I also have posted that reality is crashing down in front of CO.

oh - did you happen to noticed that UA and CO both are on the very low end of fuel hedging among US carriers?

UA came out of BK years before DL yet DL has an aggressive hedging program that will allow them to keep flying when UA has no choice to park airplanes. It's exactly the same reason WN is able to grow in DEN and elsewhere while UA is in major retreat mode.

Now tell me again why UA is in such good shape.


and keep telling me as each quarter's new financial results come in.

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: United1
Posted 2008-06-07 06:56:43 and read 3610 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
They didn't turn their business around when they got out of BK

But neither has DL, or have you forgotten that DL is not profitable. UA and DL both had operating profits in 06 and 07 however neither of them are going to be profitable this year....

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
actually, they have. if you would read UA's traffic statistics you would see they have been pulling capacity out but they can't keep their LF from falling

Yes and I have, as a reminder to you when you read them they are not this month vs last month statistics they are month vs same month last year numbers. As I said UA has not pulled much (if any) capacity out yet THIS year, they pulled out 5% at the end of last year, however most of the more aggressive fare hikes have been this year so its no wonder that LFs has been dropping.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
That indicates serious problems and there is no reasonable or acceptable explanation for that to be happening at UA but not at other carriers.

Have you ever considered that not all fare hikes are equal? UA has been rather aggressive at trading yield for market share much more so then their peers.


For the 3 billionth time......

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
But it does explain why UA's first quarter loss was so much higher than any other carrier's.



Quoting United1 (Reply 193):
Were talking about a carrier that ALWAYS posts its worst loss in the first quarter, UA was expected to post the biggest loss among its peers first quarter and they did so. Next quarter and third they are not projected to post anywhere near the biggest loss amongst the network carriers, also UA is not projected to loose the most this year. As has been pointed out and proved to you on this thread UAs revenue is much more cyclical then DLs is.

....I don't know why you can't get that into your head.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
UA came out of BK years before DL yet DL has an aggressive hedging program that will allow them to keep flying when UA has no choice to park airplanes

Actually DL came out15 months after UA came out of BK, and DL has already announced that they are parking aircraft (ML and Rjs this year.) DL is also widely expected to park more aircraft as the price of fuel worsens, DL will be updating its business plan to the the changing marketplace or are you telling me that change is not Delta?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 194):
Now tell me again why UA is in such good shape.

UA is in no worse shape then it peers, and is well positioned to survive this downturn as much as you seem to want to be believe otherwise, those carriers that fail to adapt are going to be the ones sinking....

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Airborne1
Posted 2008-06-07 07:01:17 and read 3610 times.

Hi, it's Glenn and it's Wednesday, June 4, and I'm calling from Chicago to continue our communication of the actions necessary for us to successfully compete in an industry challenged by record high fuel prices and a softening economy.

As I mentioned in last week's call, we are leveraging our discipline on capacity, taking aggressive action to put our aircraft where they have the best opportunity to earn a profit and addressing the need to size our business to the changing market. We are focused on reducing costs and improving revenue, both through fare and fee increases and by developing new sources of income.

Today we are announcing additional steps that reflect our commitment to and confidence in our action plan, setting us on a path to profitability and in line with the expectations the market has set for the industry overall.

Together with our solid platform of financial flexibility, built on a competitive cash balance, our significant unencumbered assets and the fact that we have no aircraft on order, these additional steps will enable us to compete more effectively - and ultimately more profitably - in this environment. I have asked John Tague, our chief operating officer, to join me on today's call to discuss the specifics of the actions we are announcing today.

With that, I'll turn the call over to John.

John:

Thanks, Glenn. Earlier this year, we laid out a five-point plan aimed at building a United fit to win in today's reality. That plan sets out actions against five levers that we are pulling to be more efficient and ultimately profitable with today's fuel prices.

Developing new sources of revenue is a key area of focus, by offering more products, such as Economy Plus and our best-in-class international premium cabins, while unbundling services like our recently introduced fee for a second bag. We are generating hundreds of millions of dollars in new revenue. We also continue to reduce our non-fuel costs and capital expenditures - work that will be made easier as we tighten our focus and simplify our business. We are building capacity levels that support the price increases necessary today and, of course, sizing our business appropriately.

Today, we are announcing a number of significant steps aimed at strengthening United's ability to compete effectively and position ourselves in the future for profitability in the face of unprecedented fuel prices. While these are difficult decisions that will impact many of our employees, they nevertheless must be made if we are to assure United's long-term viability as a leader in the industry.

One key component of our strategy is simplifying our fleet while reducing our capacity, particularly in the domestic market. To that end, we are removing a total of 100 aircraft from our fleet. This reduction includes the retirement of our 737 fleet - a total of 94 aircraft - 30 of which we announced early this year. This is provided we can work out terms with certain lessors. With that reduction, we will cut our mainline domestic capacity in the fourth quarter of 2008 by 14 percent year over year and further reduce domestic capacity in 2009 by 11 percent year over year, creating a capacity reduction over 2008 and 2009 of 17 percent in our domestic mainline operations.

In addition, we are electing to retire six Boeing 747-400 aircraft, reducing our international capacity by 3.5 to 4.5 percent year over year in the fourth quarter of 2008 and 4 to 5 percent year over year in 2009. This change recognizes that, while the vast majority of our international markets are performing quite well, there are a few markets that simply can't be profitable at today's fuel prices.

These reductions dramatically simplify our fleet and reduce our maintenance liability, significantly cutting the future investment required to maintain a modern fleet at United Airlines. They also retire our oldest and least fuel-efficient jets, reducing our average fleet age by 1.3 years to 11.8 years, giving us among the youngest fleets in the industry. These decisions also positively impact our customers by removing the aircraft that generate the lowest customer satisfaction levels among our narrowbodies and that operate at lower overall reliability levels.

Even with these reductions, we will continue to maintain convenient schedules with quality service across our network to the most important destinations, an offering our customers have come to expect from United. We remain committed to all of our U.S. hubs and will achieve this reduction over time principally by eliminating frequencies, with modest reductions of routes and destinations. The reductions associated with the removal of the first 30 737s announced earlier this year are already in our published schedules. Schedule changes associated with the additional 50 aircraft will be completed in the near future. About 80 aircraft are expected to be out of the system by the end of 2008, with the other 20 coming out by the end of 2009.

In addition, today we are also announcing the elimination of our Ted product offering and reintegrating the 56 A320s back into mainline configuration as we retire the 737 fleet. This will give us the flexibility to redeploy unprofitable leisure flying towards markets of greater importance to United and our customers, allowing us to ease much of the schedule impact associated with the retirement of the company's 737 fleet.

As we implement these changes, we will have to take the difficult but necessary step of reducing our workforce. To that end, we expect to reduce our salaried and management staff by between 1,400 and 1,600 employees, including the previously announced reductions of 500. Work is currently under way in each division to decide the critical priorities and determine the necessary SAM reductions. As we finalize schedules, we will identify what reductions are necessary on the front line and communicate those as soon as available.

Sustainable performance improvement will also be essential to our success and will be achieved most importantly by focusing on the basics. To ensure that, we will continue to support and invest in United's industry-leading safety performance, while also focusing on running a great airline in areas that are most important to you, our employees, and to our customers. First and foremost, we will - and we must - improve our reliability as well as the cleanliness and condition of our fleet. As we set our sights on the future, we must build the right leadership team with the right skills and commitment if we are to realize our potential of running the best airline in the U.S.

In support of that objective, we are announcing today the appointment of Joe Kolshak as senior vice president-Operations. Joe joins United having served successfully for many years as a senior leader at Delta Airlines, most recently overseeing Delta's flight operations, ground operations, maintenance, safety and security, operations control and Delta's regional operation. United is fortunate to have Joe join our team, he will report to me and be responsible for Flight Operations, United Services and Operations Control. Joe is a proven results-driven leader, and we welcome him to United.

In addition, Alex Marren will be promoted to senior vice president-Onboard Service. She will now be responsible for the full range of work within the division, including worldwide flight attendant operations, catering, crew accommodations and flight attendant scheduling. Cindy Szadokierski, who has been responsible for Operations Control, United Express and Ted, will now be our vice president of United Express and Airport Operations Planning, reporting to Scott Dolan, SVP-Airport Operations, Cargo and United Express.

As part of this reorganization, Sean Donohue, our senior vice president of Flight Operations and Onboard Service, and Bill Norman, our senior vice president of United Services, will both be leaving United after long careers and dedicated service to the company. We wish them both very well as they move on from United.

These changes reflect an unwavering commitment to drive performance improvement and the accountability that is necessary for us to become the leading U.S. airline.

We aspire to nothing less, and we will do the work that will allow this company to achieve that objective.

Glenn, back to you.

Glenn:

Thanks, John. With fuel at historically high levels, United and our competitors need to redefine ourselves in this marketplace. The answers are not easy, yet this environment demands that we and the industry act decisively and responsibly.

At United, we are committed to take whatever steps are necessary to meet the challenge that today's economic environment presents, and work is under way to develop new revenue opportunities, to limit our capital expenditures and to take any other actions beyond capacity reductions we need to get us on the path to profitability and industry leadership in performance and customer service.

That's all for now. I'll be talking to you again soon. Until then, stay focused on our customers and, of course, on one another … and stay United.




<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Topic: RE: UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s
Username: Planefxr
Posted 2008-06-07 07:35:32 and read 3535 times.



Quoting Airborne1 (Reply 196):
In addition, today we are also announcing the elimination of our Ted product offering and reintegrating the 56 A320s back into mainline configuration as we retire the 737 fleet. This will give us the flexibility to redeploy unprofitable leisure flying towards markets of greater importance to United and our customers, allowing us to ease much of the schedule impact associated with the retirement of the company's 737 fleet.

Ted should have gone during BK. Airlines within an Airline have never worked. It adds cost lowers yield all while diminishing brand recognition. Song in my opinion was a joke, DL spent 170 million just retrofitting the first 36 757's from mainline to song. I won't say it was a complete waste, some things were learned and transitioned to mainline after Song's demise. Having said that all of the positives of Song could have been implemented on mainline to start with, and all without another layer of management.

Quoting Airborne1 (Reply 196):
In support of that objective, we are announcing today the appointment of Joe Kolshak as senior vice president-Operations. Joe joins United having served successfully for many years as a senior leader at Delta Airlines, most recently overseeing Delta's flight operations, ground operations, maintenance, safety and security, operations control and Delta's regional operation. United is fortunate to have Joe join our team, he will report to me and be responsible for Flight Operations, United Services and Operations Control. Joe is a proven results-driven leader, and we welcome him to United.

I am neutral on Kolshak, not sure how much he contributed during DL's BK, on the Techops side of things I did not see much other than the fumbling, bumbling and stumbling of the outsourcing of HMV's. Operationally DL did improve ontime and cabin reconditioning under his watch, however the budget was allocated for cabin reconditioning, it is expensive and will require lots of capital expenditure and time to accomplish. This alone will be a challenge as carriers are in the mode of capital preservation, cash at this stage of the game is critical. Good luck to UA and to Joe Kolshak I wish the very best.


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