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Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:13:57 and read 50941 times.

I'm watching CNN and they're showing a TA lane that just crashed in TGU.

Any info??

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 10:17:04 and read 50970 times.

What kind of a/c is it??? Havent heard/seen anything so far.

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2008-05-30 10:15:40 and read 50962 times.

Life here aswell, seems to have overrun the runway. "Only" injuries reported so far! Hoping for the best.

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:16:35 and read 50916 times.

124 pax on board, seems everyone is fine. Looks like a A320.

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2008-05-30 10:18:17 and read 50856 times.

TA 390 from El Salvador, according to CNN. Looks like an A320? Overshot the runway on landing.

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:21:17 and read 50847 times.

CNN claims bad weather caused the accident. Haven't heard if it crashed during landing or Take-off.

Definitively a write-off. Looks like if it stopped in a ditch or something like that. Broke in 2 pieces, right in front of the wing box.

JAAH

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 10:21:22 and read 50846 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
124 pax on board, seems everyone is fine. Looks like a A320

Sounds great that everyone is fine.

What is the reason for the overrun?? Was the runway wet??

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 10:22:12 and read 50786 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 5):
Broke in 2 pieces, right in front of the wing box.

Any pics??

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Xaapb
Posted 2008-05-30 10:23:48 and read 50799 times.

One dead is reported apparently due to a heart condition after the accident, here is the link
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/510955.html
sorry it's only in Spanish.
RIP

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:22:35 and read 50758 times.

Reg

EI-TAF ( From what I saw in the news).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gareth harvey



From what CNN is showing, there's no flames, so probably not too much fuel on board, this might indicate accident happened during landing.

JAAH

Topic: TACA Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Carmenlu15
Posted 2008-05-30 10:25:23 and read 50710 times.

I knew it was a good idea to hit refresh before starting my own thread  Wink

So far I know it's flight TA390, flying the first leg of its regular route SAL-TGU-SAP-MIA.

From: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3987867/

Quote:
Tegucigalpa, Honduras. - Un avión de la compañía salvadoreña TACA se accidentó este viernes en Honduras, al salirse de la pista del aeropuerto capitalino de El Toncontin, informan las cadenas radiales noticiosas.

There's conflicting info everywhere... some sources report slight injuries, some others report serious injuries, a couple news sites state at least one fatality  eek 

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
What kind of a/c is it??? Havent heard/seen anything so far.

Airbus 320, capacity 150 pax (138 coach, 12 business). No idea what reg it is...

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 5):
Broke in 2 pieces, right in front of the wing box.

Holy Mother of God...  eyepopping 

Topic: RE: TA Plane Just Crahed In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:27:23 and read 50558 times.



Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 10):
Holy Mother of God...

Actually it doesn't looks that bad.

Reminded me of P5 E190 that overrun the rwy in SMR.


JAAH

edit: CNN just confirmed 1 dead. Identified as the President of the BCIE (Central American Bank of Economic Integration, IIRC).

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Legion242
Posted 2008-05-30 10:30:32 and read 50451 times.

Is this the airport in Honduras w/ the famous approach over those hills?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:35:39 and read 50374 times.



Quoting Legion242 (Reply 12):
Is this the airport in Honduras w/ the famous approach over those hills?

I think so. There's a video of a AA 757 landing, very nice if you ask me.


From the latest images, it seems that some cars were under the fwing. It seems the plane stopped on a road. Hopefully no one was injured int he ground.

JAAH

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: XAAPB
Posted 2008-05-30 10:41:31 and read 50277 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 11):
Actually it doesn't looks that bad.

It dose look so bad, at least for me, the plane broke into 2 pieces and the flight deck looks totally crushed.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Oldeuropean
Posted 2008-05-30 10:41:54 and read 50265 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 13):
I think so. There's a video of a AA 757 landing, very nice if you ask me.



Axel

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-05-30 10:43:50 and read 50158 times.



Quoting XAAPB (Reply 14):
It dose look so bad, at least for me, the plane broke into 2 pieces and the flight deck looks totally crushed.

From the left side of the plane (first images) doesn't. From the other side looks really bad.

Latest info on that: Both pilots seem to be stuck in the cockpit. Locals trying to ge tthem out. Hopefully they're fine, but they're lucky a fire never broke out.


JAAH

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: XAAPB
Posted 2008-05-30 10:49:14 and read 50013 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 16):
but they're lucky a fire never broke out.

Extremely in deed, they are saying also that people are trapped in the cars below the airplane, hope those people are ok as well as the pilots.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Comeflywithme
Posted 2008-05-30 10:49:20 and read 49961 times.

They are trying to smash their way in to the cockpit just now and reports of two victims so far.Looks to have come to a stop on a road.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Carmenlu15
Posted 2008-05-30 10:51:38 and read 49938 times.

Live coverage on CNN here: http://edition.cnn.com/video/live/live.html?stream=stream2

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-05-30 10:52:28 and read 49861 times.



Quoting Legion242 (Reply 12):
Is this the airport in Honduras w/ the famous approach over those hills?

Yes. But I do have a question: If bad weather was responsible for this, why didn't they divert to SAP? I mean, if they were already on final approach at the time, they could have still aborted and diverted.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 10:56:27 and read 49806 times.

Hey Guys,

EI-TAF confirmed, just finished its lease from Martinair and based in SJO for a long time, here are some screen caps from CNN en Espanol and TVC Honduras:











[Edited 2008-05-30 10:59:36]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2008-05-30 10:58:16 and read 49675 times.

Reuters reported there might be up to 18 people dead.

So far confirmed: 1 dead (Centro American Integration Bank president), 15 injured.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Trekster
Posted 2008-05-30 11:01:36 and read 49605 times.

Yikes.

Im surprised if there wont be some bad injuries from people who were sitting just in front of the wing where the break was, still smoking as well but thankfuly no bad fire.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AACUN
Posted 2008-05-30 11:04:33 and read 49458 times.

I heard on CNN that the pilot was dead...... No more details..... Has this been confirmed?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 11:10:22 and read 49214 times.

Wow, that pics looks horrible. Hope that it wont be too many fatalities. So how many reported dead now??

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AR385
Posted 2008-05-30 11:10:26 and read 52096 times.

Another airbus exiting the runway. Is there any similarity between this runway excursion and the TAM tragedy?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 11:16:13 and read 51825 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Another airbus exiting the runway. I

You make it sound like its a problem w Airbuses. A 737 from Southwest had something similar happen in Chicago a few years back.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 11:17:25 and read 51763 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 27):
You make it sound like its a problem w Airbuses. A 737 from Southwest had something similar happen in Chicago a few years back.

I doubt he really means that it is something wrong with Airbus a/cs

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Flpuck6
Posted 2008-05-30 11:32:06 and read 51207 times.

Hello to all,

Having flown into this airport several times when I was younger ( on TAN/SAHSA / Aviateca / American) I am surprised there have not been more incidents with this runway.

To give you an idea, there are passengers on board who clap when the plane lands safely because the runway is so short.

My grandfather (grandparents live there) recently flew from there ... with no winds and a heavy load the American Airlines 757 had to offload cargo in order to take off.

A big thought goes out to those affected by this incident, passengers/families and Taca staff alike.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-30 11:35:20 and read 51084 times.



Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 21):
EI-TAF confirmed

According to TA this A320-233 came out of the assembly line on 01/04/2001. She had logged 21,957 flight hours and 9,992 landings as of yesterday.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NWA742
Posted 2008-05-30 11:42:56 and read 50821 times.



Quoting AACUN (Reply 24):
I heard on CNN that the pilot was dead...... No more details..... Has this been confirmed?

Haven't seen it confirmed but looking at the crunched up nose section in the photos above, it wouldn't be surprising. Sadly, both of them may have been lost.




-NWA742

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Carmenlu15
Posted 2008-05-30 11:45:05 and read 50711 times.



Quoting Flpuck6 (Reply 29):
A big thought goes out to those affected by this incident, passengers/families and Taca staff alike.

Second that... This hits so close to home, working in TA reservations was what started my interest in aviation, and several of my close friends still work for them  Sad

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: FRAspotter
Posted 2008-05-30 11:47:16 and read 50701 times.

The pilot has been confirmed as killed as well as at least one passenger.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americ...05/30/honduras.crash.ap/index.html

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Fanofjets
Posted 2008-05-30 11:46:33 and read 50632 times.

According to the AP newswire, one of the pilots is dead as well. No further information about the persons trapped in the cars - let's hope for the best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/...;_ylt=AtxtihOspeNs3gAGd38PmYWs0NUE

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2008-05-30 11:48:54 and read 50460 times.

Now, they are saying three dead.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=4965169

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Jmbarros12
Posted 2008-05-30 11:49:06 and read 50491 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Another airbus exiting the runway. Is there any similarity between this runway excursion and the TAM tragedy?

Yes, there is. PR-MBK that crashed in CGH last year was former N454TA with TACA, CN 789.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/TAM/A...r=4&prev_id=1235728&next_id=NEXTID

Sds,

João Marcelo

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-30 12:06:59 and read 49913 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 9):
probably not too much fuel on board

A number of media outlets are estimating more than 2,000 gallons spilled out.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
If bad weather was responsible for this, why didn't they divert to SAP?

Perhaps because most TA pilots are pretty bold under similar circumstances? I'm sure you have seen 'em daredevils at SJO during the worst of our rainy season.

Quoting Fanofjets (Reply 34):
According to the AP newswire, one of the pilots is dead as well.

And that would be consistent with what the director of Honduras' military hospital was quoted as saying.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CURLYHEADBOY
Posted 2008-05-30 12:21:11 and read 49466 times.

Can anyone post some specs of the approach/runway? Is there an ILS? And if so what CAT is it?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Juanchito
Posted 2008-05-30 12:27:17 and read 49195 times.

Airfield Data: Fire Category 7C
Emergency Services: Fire Service
Navigational Aids: VOR-DME, NDB
Runway 1: Heading 02/20, 1 863m (6 112ft), 080/F/B/X/T, ICAO Cat. 3C, Aircraft size max: B727/100 (757)/200, No ILS

Source
http://www.azworldairports.com/airports/a1710tgu.cfm

Juanchito

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2008-05-30 12:34:50 and read 49019 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 37):
Quoting Fanofjets (Reply 34):
According to the AP newswire, one of the pilots is dead as well.

Yes. The Captain has been confirmed dead. According to the press, the first officer is in critical condition.

R.I.P.

http://www.laprensahn.com/index.php/...ersonas_heridas_en_accidente_aereo

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-05-30 12:34:33 and read 48911 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 5):
CNN claims bad weather caused the accident.

Not really…

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
bad weather was responsible for this

As you pointed out in your question, a landing accident in bad weather is not caused by bad weather. It's caused by choosing to land in bad weather. Caused by people, a decision made by someone somewhere.

 Sad

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 12:37:20 and read 49234 times.

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 38):
Can anyone post some specs of the approach/runway? Is there an ILS? And if so what CAT is it?

No ILS, only VOR/DME approaches to both RWYs and a short runway:





Tomas.

[Edited 2008-05-30 12:38:56]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Juanchito
Posted 2008-05-30 12:39:04 and read 48714 times.

Gracias Tomas for the Charts

Juanchito

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2008-05-30 12:41:22 and read 48636 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 37):
Quoting 777jaah (Reply 9):
probably not too much fuel on board

A number of media outlets are estimating more than 2,000 gallons spilled out.

Id say its a miracle there was no fire... the AF A340 that burst into flames was more intact than this A320...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LGA777
Posted 2008-05-30 12:40:51 and read 48641 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 30):
According to TA this A320-233 came out of the assembly line on 01/04/2001. She had logged 21,957 flight hours and 9,992 landings as of yesterday

Very ironic this aicraft was lost just 8 landings short of 10,000. RIP to those who where lost today and my sympothy to all effected by this unfortunate accident.

Regards

LGA777

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-05-30 12:41:48 and read 48714 times.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 38):
Can anyone post some specs of the approach/runway? Is there an ILS? And if so what CAT is it?

There is no ILS in TGU, it's a visual approach, which is why if there is any kind of fog, smoke, or weather they close the airport... ILS is not possible due to the terrain proximity surrounding the runway... the mountains are soooo close that they would obstruct the signal from the localizer systems...

As you land the mountains are so close, it looks like the wingtips are about to hit the tree-tops...

SAP and LCE both have ILS, not sure about RTB though...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: ADXMatt
Posted 2008-05-30 12:42:16 and read 48582 times.

I'm sure weather played a factor into this accident.
I show on our Jepp Charts the landing mins are very high due to the difficult approach. The You Tube video posted above shows how complicated the approach is.

RWY 02 VOR approach cig. 2703 feet and 3 sm vis.
3SM is about 4500 meters.


MHTG 301600Z 20009KT 3000SW -DZ FEW006 BKN020 OVC080 22/20 Q1017 3KM SW WSW W 8KM CTE E PCPN CL D/C UNL HZ AVION DE TACA ACCIDENTADO EN LA PISTA 19 EN EL AEROPUERTO TONCONTIN

MHTG 301500Z 19004KT 2000S -DZ FEW008 BKN020 OCV080 21/19 Q1016 2KM S SW WSW D/C 8KM PCPN CL HZ

MHTG 301400Z 16004KT 3000SW -DZ FEW006 BKN020 OVC080 20/19 Q1016 3KM SW WSW NW D/C 8KM PCPN CL HZ NOSIG

I don't know what the weather was at the time of the approach but it doesn't look like the weather would be good enough based on the metars.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families involved.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-05-30 12:46:01 and read 48477 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Is there any similarity between this runway excursion and the TAM tragedy?

Apart from running off the end of the runway? I doubt anyone knows at this point. Last I heard about the TAM incident, one engine would need to have been left providing forward thrust for it to have been similar in any meaningful way.

Quoting Jmbarros12 (Reply 36):
Yes, there is. PR-MBK that crashed in CGH last year was former N454TA with TACA, CN 789.

I'm not sure I'd call that a similarity with the TAM incident. Something in common, yes, but not a similarty to the incident.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 12:46:23 and read 48424 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
As you pointed out in your question, a landing accident in bad weather is not caused by bad weather. It's caused by choosing to land in bad weather. Caused by people, a decision made by someone somewhere

Look at the Caution Box on the first chart from reply 42

"During rainy season RWY 02-20 touchdown zones extremely slippery"

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-30 12:47:41 and read 48357 times.



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 40):
Yes. The Captain has been confirmed dead. According to the press, the first officer is in critical condition.

So sad, so sad. Hope the officer will survive at least.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 12:48:51 and read 47768 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 46):
SAP and LCE both have ILS, not sure about RTB though...

LCE does not have an ILS app, only VOR/DME, NDB/DME and NDB approaches to RWY07.

No ILS for RTB also, only VOR/DME for RWY07 only.

Furthermore, TGU ops are being moved to the Soto Cano AB, MHSC which has still a mountainous approach but much easier than TGU and has VOR approaches to both RWYs 17/35 as well as RNAV/GPS apps to both RWYs.

MHSC has taken large aircraft, I recall the China Airlines Dreamliner 747-400 landing there from ANC on an official Presidential visit.

MHSC is just a mere 30 nautical miles from MHTG/TGU and has an 8,008ft RWY, Hondura's president, Manuel Zelaya said it it the best RWY in Central America though personally I have my doubts about that.

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-30 12:51:42 and read 47603 times.

French news agency Agence France-Presse is quoting former Honduran Minister of Industry and Commerce Mr. Norman Garcia (a pax on the ill-fated flight) as saying visibility conditions were indeed extremely poor. Here's my own translation from the Spanish-language original...

"It was a difficult landing due to the cloud ceiling being very low. The pilot tried to land the first time but couldn't. On the second attempt, I noticed the airplane touched down right in front of the passenger terminal, a sign that he had already flown too far along the runway."

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 12:54:21 and read 47470 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 49):
Look at the Caution Box on the first chart from reply 42

"During rainy season RWY 02-20 touchdown zones extremely slippery"

Even though it says June-December, rainy season here in Central America started a few weeks back but WX has been affected along the whole of CA thanks to Tropical Storm Alma which is affecting Nicaragua, El Salvador and Honduras as we speak.

Here in Costa Rica, we had three days of non-stop rain and 2,500 people were affected due to floods.

Regards,
Tomas.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2008-05-30 12:53:39 and read 47509 times.



Quoting LGA777 (Reply 45):
Very ironic this aicraft was lost just 8 landings short of 10,000.

At the possibility of sounding like an a-hole, what about that fact is "ironic?" Interesting maybe, but ironic - I don't think so. There is so much irony in the world, but this isn't an example of it.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-05-30 13:01:56 and read 47674 times.

It reminds me the AOM-CUBANA DC10 (F-GTDI) crash at GUA (Guatemala City) in Dec. 1999. The accident is the result of an overshoot on a wet runway, with the crew failing to go around, followed by insufficient deceleration :



Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: ZSOFN
Posted 2008-05-30 13:09:27 and read 47185 times.





http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1429/78747491aj1.jpg

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 13:09:36 and read 47388 times.

Similar to this one too.


Big version: Width: 300 Height: 241 File size: 11kb

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-05-30 13:12:43 and read 46888 times.

Wow, (according to the CNN report) the rwy is only 5300ft long, but the chart reads 6100ft?! Regardless, I'm surprised accidents such as this one don't happen more often!

RIP to all involved

regards

[Edited 2008-05-30 13:44:21]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Robffm2
Posted 2008-05-30 13:19:32 and read 46776 times.

There is a video on youtube about a similar accident of TACA in 1993.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Jmc1975
Posted 2008-05-30 13:26:26 and read 46370 times.

Whoa! I flew on EI-TAF in Sep. 2006 from SAL to DFW!

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MHTripple7
Posted 2008-05-30 13:30:08 and read 46256 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 57):
Similar to this one too.

Except for the fact that the TA A320 broke into pieces whereas that WN 737 was repaired and put back into service.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 13:31:49 and read 46251 times.



Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 61):
Except for the fact that the TA A320 broke into pieces whereas that WN 737 was repaired and put back into service.

Well yea - but that is most likely due to the fact that the at MDW there is no "hole" (for lack of a better word) at the end of the runway.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CRFLY
Posted 2008-05-30 13:37:44 and read 45930 times.

Really sad to see this and my condolences to the families!

I've been flying TACA a lot in the last 6 months, and I actually tried to fly them on Wednesday night from SJO to PTY but the flight was canceled due to MX, although the WX was very poor too due to Tropical Storm Alma...

As a private pilot and a long time aviation student, I've been concerned from a long time now about approach and landing procedures of both TA and CM pilots, especially in Central America. I've recently landed in GUA, SJO, SAL and PTY with very poor or windy weather conditions, on situations where I, if I was the PIC, would divert to another airport and not put in risk my crew and py paxs, but again that is my personal opinion! The incident of the 767 operating TA510 in GUA years ago was a wake-up call, but sadly today tragedy happend!

RIP

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CURLYHEADBOY
Posted 2008-05-30 13:39:56 and read 45862 times.

Tomascubero, Ludavid777: Thank you for the info and charts of the airport.

Airbus planes have a mode on the autopilot to fly non-precision approaches (can't remember the name of this function but i'm sure it's there, someone please name it for me  Smile ). I was guessing if it's used on a regular basis or not, and if it may have helped in this unfortunate and tragic landing...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 13:42:37 and read 45748 times.



Quoting CRFLY (Reply 63):
GUA, SJO, SAL and PTY with very poor or windy weather conditions, on situations where I, if I was the PIC, would divert to another airport and not put in risk my crew and py paxs

All those airports have ILS though...

As they say : "There is no bad weather - just bad equipment"

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-05-30 13:51:08 and read 45697 times.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1429/78747491aj1.jpg
Would the speedbrakes retract? Or wasn't it deployed? 1 panel seems to be up.

RIP to the victims...
EI-TAF, stopped short of 10,000 landings  Sad

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: ADXMatt
Posted 2008-05-30 13:52:27 and read 45508 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 58):
Wow, (according to the CNN report) the rwy is only 5300ft long, but the chart reads 6100ft?!

While the runway is 6109 feet the usable length at the touchdown point is 5410 ft when landing on runway 2. This is because you don't land where the pavement begins but further down.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-30 13:58:49 and read 45309 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 58):
Wow, (according to the CNN report) the rwy is only 5300ft long, but the chart reads 6100ft?!

The piece of concrete is 6,109 feet long, but there's a displaced threshold for landing with 5,410 feet available. See the first chart back in reply #42.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-05-30 14:01:55 and read 45236 times.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 64):
Airbus planes have a mode on the autopilot to fly non-precision approaches (can't remember the name of this function but i'm sure it's there, someone please name it for me Smile ).

Flight Path Angle - "TRK/FPA"?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-05-30 14:04:03 and read 45231 times.

According to this article in Norwegian media, 2 passangers died + one died in one of the cars that were hit...

Big picture in the article:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/05/30/536785.html

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CRFLY
Posted 2008-05-30 14:03:27 and read 45155 times.

I don't know if you guys know the airports here in Central America, especially GUA, SJO and TGU, but no matter if you have ILS or not, these airports are challenging to land because of visibility in high altitude cities, and as the minimums of the airports are 1000 ft above these 5000ft, 3000ft and 4000ft AGL runways, it gets tough with the visibility!

"There is no bad weather and not bad equipment, just bad pilots!"

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Litz
Posted 2008-05-30 14:24:06 and read 44666 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 70):
According to this article in Norwegian media, 2 passangers died + one died in one of the cars that were hit...

Gadzooks ... look at that dropoff from the airfield ... those people are amazingly lucky.

That plane must have dropped like a stone went it went off the edge.

- litz

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Snaiks
Posted 2008-05-30 14:24:30 and read 44494 times.

My condolences to theirfamilys, to sad to hear the second crash in central america in 2 days,

what i heard is that the pilot was circling for 20 minutes and then decided to land, probably saw the field to late,

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-30 14:42:52 and read 44073 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 66):
Would the speedbrakes retract? Or wasn't it deployed? 1 panel seems to be up.

I think any speed brakes on top of the wing would go down when power went off/ hydraulic pressure was lost.

As far as the one panel up - after going off that hill and hitting the ground that hard - I would not be surprised to see any part of the aircraft in a disturbed or abnomal position.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tacoronte
Posted 2008-05-30 14:48:26 and read 44142 times.

http://www.telemundo47.com/video/16439298/index.html

Very detailed video! You can see some guys trying to break the windshield with rocks.

[Edited 2008-05-30 14:49:48]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-30 14:52:49 and read 43690 times.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 38):
Can anyone post some specs of the approach/runway? Is there an ILS? And if so what CAT is it?

There cannot be an ILS at this airport. An ILS requires about a five mile straight in approach - and at this airport - that would fly an aircraft into the mountains.

Has anyone seen confirmation that the aircraft was landing on Rwy 02 and went off the NORTH end of the runway?

From looking at the photos and Google Earth - that looks like where it ended up. The South end of the runway has a long clear zone beside a parallel road.

Rwy 02 has a displaced threshold - so the full runway length is available for takeoff, but for landing the aircraft needs to touchdown no sooner than 700-1,000 ft from the runway end.

In a thread on this forum a few months ago - it was agreed that this airport is the most dangerous airport in the world into which commercial passenger aircraft regularly fly

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CURLYHEADBOY
Posted 2008-05-30 15:01:18 and read 43414 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 69):
Flight Path Angle - "TRK/FPA"?

That's it, thank you.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2008-05-30 15:07:39 and read 43355 times.

What shocks me right now is that many passengers can be seen in the [Noticero T47] video evacuating the aircraft carrying their personal belongings. It appears that left front and left aft doors were only opened partially, and very few people were coming out through the wings exits, and those that are seen leaving that way, can be seen carrying their bags.

Don't know about how the evacuation went on the starboard side of the aircraft. The video doesn't that much of tha side of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-05-30 15:19:04 and read 43034 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 37):
Perhaps because most TA pilots are pretty bold under similar circumstances? I'm sure you have seen 'em daredevils at SJO during the worst of our rainy season.

I've seen those daredevils at SJO, particular this one time when they took off very shallow, the aircraft almost floated above the runway before flying just metres above the fence and pulling the nose up for a proper climb.

Still, I'd expect more common sense from those TA pilots in bad weather.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 49):
Look at the Caution Box on the first chart from reply 42

"During rainy season RWY 02-20 touchdown zones extremely slippery"

Why is that? Isn't the runway grooved or something? Or does it have to do with the runway slope creating a zone that easily gets filled with water?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 15:21:59 and read 42947 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 76):
Has anyone seen confirmation that the aircraft was landing on Rwy 02 and went off the NORTH end of the runway?

According to wind conditions in the morning, it would indicate RWY20 be in use but at the end of RWY20 there is only dirt, no buildings (which would have probably saved the Pilot's life) so its obvious that it is RWY02 it was landing on. Will post a Google Earth shot showing the crash site.

I just found out that I flew on this airframe on the 16th January 2006 SJO-MIA back when it was N465TA and not EI-TAF.

Regards,
Tomas.

[Edited 2008-05-30 15:26:20]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-05-30 15:24:59 and read 42967 times.

Video here:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=195826

( Click on the big picture )

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-30 15:26:57 and read 42740 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 79):
Why is that? Isn't the runway grooved or something? Or does it have to do with the runway slope creating a zone that easily gets filled with water?

During the rainy season in the tropics rain falling at the rate of four to eight inches per hour is not unusual. Even the best grooved and crowned runways will hold a couple inches of water for several minutes that it takes to drain.

I've seen seven vertical inches of water on the US Navy runway at Subic Bay at the end of a two hour downpour - a well built and drained runway.

The CNN story says that Tropical Storm Alma had pased the area dumping several inches of rain a few hours before the landing. The runway should have drained the heavy water by then - but it would still be wet because there were apparently continuing rain showers.

The airport is about the largest relatively flat area anywhere near this mountain valley city.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...11&prev_id=1314022&next_id=1308690

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AirplaneBoy
Posted 2008-05-30 15:29:57 and read 42664 times.

Where are the flight attendants? Are they okay? I could not see any of them participating in the evacuation process. There was even a passenger trying to exit the aircraft where the fuselage was broken. Does anyone know what happened to the cabin crew? Granted, it is possible that at least two of them could have been evacuating doors 1R and 2R, but this aircraft should have had 3-4 FAs total.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-05-30 15:35:59 and read 42489 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 62):
Well yea - but that is most likely due to the fact that the at MDW there is no "hole" (for lack of a better word) at the end of the runway.

Looks more like the Kalitta accident, with a ditch at the end and the 3 part break up, but in this case the tail section remained in tact.

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 71):
"There is no bad weather and not bad equipment, just bad pilots!"

Or bad dispatchers, or airport bosses, or many others who make decisions. People get annoyed with the increased delays in the USA than before during bad weather, but we also don't fly in the same kind of weather that we did 20 years ago. For better or worse, we shut down airports much more frequently than we used to. But in other countries, there can be this attitude that "our weather is so bad so often, if we shut down our airports all the time nobody would ever get anywhere."

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Tomascubero
Posted 2008-05-30 15:37:43 and read 42772 times.

Judging from the photos above, I am asumming the plane is resting here:

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7734/crashmi9.jpg

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2008-05-30 15:52:08 and read 42224 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 84):
Or bad dispatchers, or airport bosses, or many others who make decisions

The final decision rests with the pilot.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-30 16:03:01 and read 42072 times.

5,410 foot landing distance available + 0.0475% downhill slope + wet runway + tailwind + heavy aircraft (full pax plus reported 2,000 gals of fuel onboard (13,400 lbs) = one really ugly scenario...

Given the distance between the end of the runway and where the aircraft ended up, not to mention the elevation differences, I'm surprised (very pleasantly) that there are so many survivors...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Allstarflyer
Posted 2008-05-30 16:39:34 and read 41390 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 16):
they're lucky a fire never broke out.

Amen to that.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 50):
Hope the officer will survive at least.

For the sake of his life, but also to get some more answers.

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 71):
"There is no bad weather and not bad equipment, just bad pilots!"

In whatever unlikelihood, instruments do fail at times.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 86):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 84):
Or bad dispatchers, or airport bosses, or many others who make decisions

The final decision rests with the pilot.

We each have our measure of responsibility, but that last remark is the truth.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LN-KGL
Posted 2008-05-30 16:39:49 and read 41395 times.

Didn't USAF C-130H 88-4408 overrun at the same spot as EI-TAF on 1 April 1997?

Here is the ASN report: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19970401-1

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2008-05-30 16:58:29 and read 41170 times.



Quoting 777jaah (Reply 5):
CNN claims bad weather caused the accident.

Weather is not to blame. If the pilots decide to land and the weather is not within limits, they are responsible.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Yes. But I do have a question: If bad weather was responsible for this, why didn't they divert to SAP? I mean, if they were already on final approach at the time, they could have still aborted and diverted.

Exactly.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Another airbus exiting the runway. Is there any similarity between this runway excursion and the TAM tragedy?

Yes. They were both Airbuses that overran.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 58):
Wow, (according to the CNN report) the rwy is only 5300ft long, but the chart reads 6100ft?! Regardless, I'm surprised accidents such as this one don't happen more often!

The runway length and approach obstacles are known quantities and compensated for. This is well within the operating envelope. Airlines don't operate out of airports where there is a significant risk of an accident. The pilots and regulators don't allow it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 65):
As they say : "There is no bad weather - just bad equipment"

Indeed. Or bad decisions.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-30 17:27:41 and read 40915 times.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
Or bad decisions.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
As they say : "There is no bad weather - just bad equipment"

Agreed - Unfortunately that was the case today.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AR385
Posted 2008-05-30 17:29:31 and read 40944 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 76):
In a thread on this forum a few months ago - it was agreed that this airport is the most dangerous airport in the world into which commercial passenger aircraft regularly fly

So. Are crews specially trained to land at Toncontin? Does each airline have a select group of crews that can land there?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 79):
I've seen those daredevils at SJO, particular this one time when they took off very shallow

Not to criticize Central American crews but they do seem to be on the less conservative side of the spectrum. My father flew in and out of SJO on a Lear 30 series. Usually with Mexican crews. The one time he flew out of SJO with a Costa Rican crew, they took off into a thunderstorm. He told me the jet banked in excess of 90 deg to each side. That was before one engine flamed out and the subsequent return to SJO. He did require a change of underwear and pants after that, my father.

I have watched the videos provided here. What absolutely stunns me, is the people exiting the plane with their baggage. You can see a lot of people not just carrying simple backpacks out with them but really big pieces of carry-on luggage. Don't they know that only by a sheer miracle their wreckage didn't catch any fire? I assume this reckless behavior will be analyzed later by the investigative authorities. If I had been trying to exit that wreck and someone in front of was delaying me because of luggage, I would have promptly socked them to the ground and pushed them aside.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-30 18:17:56 and read 40763 times.

For those who know the zone, the threshold belonging to runway 02 is effectively displaced from the top of the runway and a perpendicular highway is located close to the mentioned area.
I stayed there four years ago and If I recall correctly, a light was regulating the traffic of automobiles when a jet mainline landing occurred there.
TGU is widely known for the high hills in the vicinity. It comes to mind the sad accident of Sahsa's Boeing 727 covering the route SJO-MGA-TGU that crashed in Cerro de Hula during its final approaching to runway 02 as well. It happened on October 1989.
This is not the first time I've heard about accidents/incidents due to overrun issues at Tegucipalpa Toncontin.

Big version: Width: 506 Height: 819 File size: 92kb


Remarks: The number one in the graphic means Cerro de Hula.

Disclaimer: The attached chart is obsolete.




My prayers for those who died today.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-05-30 18:28:33 and read 40448 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 92):
So. Are crews specially trained to land at Toncontin? Does each airline have a select group of crews that can land there?

Yes, the pilots that fly into TGU, be it AA, CO, TA, CM, are specifically trained for that route. Meaning if you want to bid to fly that route you have to be rated for it. For US carriers the training allows them to fly into TGU and UIO...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-30 19:06:40 and read 40032 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 94):
For US carriers the training allows them to fly into TGU and UIO...

La Paz and Cali are also getting special approaching procedures due to unusual high terrains placed in the surroundings.
Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-05-30 19:14:16 and read 39970 times.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 95):
La Paz and Cali are also getting special approaching procedures due to unusual high terrains placed in the surroundings.
Regards.

Yeah but as far as the built lines, only TGU and UIO are included for those trained pilots... Cali and La Paz are open for anyone...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-05-30 19:30:07 and read 40073 times.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airlines_Aviation_Video-8203.html

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 46):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 38):
Can anyone post some specs of the approach/runway? Is there an ILS? And if so what CAT is it?

There is no ILS in TGU, it's a visual approach

Its a VOR/DME20 or 02 break off for a visual to either end.

The 02 stuff also has an NDB used only when VOR is OTS...... and non radar means the procedure turn is done all the time.

I think the rule is for VOR/DME02, is to be at Vref and fully configured by procedure turn inbound..... or prior to the IAF for 20..... Maybe if you do the arrival hold for 20, you don't have to be cfg then, but before you start the actual approach.

Plus it is still dive and drive which is so unsafe in airline operations, as seen today. Just like the AA MD-80 crash in BDL really kicked the CDAP stuff into force in the US, I got a felling either ICAO or at least Honduras aviation officals will either fix the approach or make CDAP as well or maybe make a RNP approach but that only serves to the aircraft w/ GPS, RF, and all that. It was a problem waiting to happen IMHO.

So sad all the same

http://latte.com/mhtg.pdf

[Edited 2008-05-30 19:44:00]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-05-30 19:46:30 and read 39665 times.

On that amazing video, I thought I saw power lines hanging over near the wings. Talk about some lucky people today!

Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 83):
Where are the flight attendants? Are they okay? I could not see any of them participating in the evacuation process. There was even a passenger trying to exit the aircraft where the fuselage was broken. Does anyone know what happened to the cabin crew? Granted, it is possible that at least two of them could have been evacuating doors 1R and 2R, but this aircraft should have had 3-4 FAs total.

I was wondering the same thing too. The FA or FA's in the forward section might have sustained serious injuries, just by looking at the cockpit section.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RichM
Posted 2008-05-30 20:18:18 and read 39442 times.

Tragic event indeed. They're really lucky that there wasn't a fire, I dread to think of the consequences if there had been one!

Just from viewing the video, I cannot believe how unprofessional the authorities appear to have dealt with the situation. Over here, we would have cordoned off the entire area and the police certainly would not be standing ontop of the wing, talking on a mobile phone, inches above thousands of litres of fuel! That's just insane!

Sometimes I think our country (UK) takes safety issues too seriously. The safety related policies in our public services are very strict, but when you see things like this, it really does put things into perspective.

Ref: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=195826

[Edited 2008-05-30 20:24:23]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-30 20:21:49 and read 39401 times.



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 97):
I got a felling either ICAO or at least Honduras aviation officals will either fix the approach or make CDAP as well or maybe make a RNP approach but that only serves to the aircraft w/ GPS, RF, and all that.

While I can see a complex RNP approach being added - there are too many aircraft with too little certified avionics to make that a required approach.

It's still going to be a visual approach in VMC conditions for the last turn and last few miles.

Visibility, seeing the runway and flying the approach most likely was not an issue on this incident.

But it is going to be almost impossible politically to de-certify the only airport for a national capital, or impose restrictions which prevent most of the local country traffic from using the airport/ approaches.

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 97):
It was a problem waiting to happen IMHO.

The airport is more than that - it's a problem which has happened in the past, and probably will happen again in the future.

I would agree that this airport is probably obsolete by today's standards, but geography does not leave the local country many options short of blowing the top off a mountain for a new airport and spending several billion, maybe tens of billions, of dollars.

Possibly expanding and using the Coronel Enrique Soto Cano Air Base at Comayagua as the international airport might be safer - but the 30 mile straight line distance between the capital and the airport would probably be 50-60 miles over the mountains.

It is 45 miles straight south to the coastal plains near the Pacific - 100 miles north to the Caribbean/ Atlantic.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-30 20:23:56 and read 39258 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 96):
Cali and La Paz are open for anyone

LPB is not only an airport surrounded by high mountains.
The velocity of contact with the runway is faster than normal conditions due to the extreme altitude there.
LIM is the farther international destination out of La Paz due to payload penalties considering its 13300 feet high.
IMHO, all these unusual facts deserve a special training for the crew involved in mainline operations there.




.

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 97):
I got a felling either ICAO or at least Honduras aviation officials will either fix the approach or make CDAP as well or maybe make a RNP approach but that only serves to the aircraft w/ GPS, RF, and all that. It was a problem waiting to happen

I've recently watched the news and authorities of Honduras initially quoted the intended project to move all the commercial operations out of TGU.
They proposed the military airport named Coronel Enrique Soto Cano as the best feasible choice in order to replace it later.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-30 20:28:17 and read 39251 times.

Also - CNN is now reporting four fatal from the crash - the pilot, one female passenger, a taxi driver on the ground and a male passenger who suffered a heart failure after the crash.

RIP

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: PITrules
Posted 2008-05-30 20:34:55 and read 39140 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 79):
Why is that? Isn't the runway grooved or something?

Most Latin runways are not grooved.

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 71):
"There is no bad weather and not bad equipment, just bad pilots!"



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 86):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 84):
Or bad dispatchers, or airport bosses, or many others who make decisions

The final decision rests with the pilot.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
Weather is not to blame. If the pilots decide to land and the weather is not within limits, they are responsible.

And are pilots to blame for bad weather reporting as well? Central America is notorious for not updating rapidly changing weather conditions in a timely manner.

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 96):
Yeah but as far as the built lines, only TGU and UIO are included for those trained pilots... Cali and La Paz are open for anyone...

La Paz is a "special airport" (requiring specific training and currency). So is GUA, UIO, BOG

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Live4peanuts
Posted 2008-05-30 20:43:36 and read 39094 times.

Hello fellow a.netters. This is my first post on this great website. Sad I had to join to post on this topic. My brother was an f/o for TACA for about 3 1/2 years before he came an f/o for QR on the 330. It is with great sadness that I have to report his friend the captain, also a family friend of my family, was the captain on flight 390. May he and the rest of the victims rest in peace and go with god.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mirrodie
Posted 2008-05-30 21:25:56 and read 38822 times.



Quoting LGA777 (Reply 45):
Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 30):
According to TA this A320-233 came out of the assembly line on 01/04/2001. She had logged 21,957 flight hours and 9,992 landings as of yesterday

Very ironic this aicraft was lost just 8 landings short of 10,000. RIP to those who where lost today and my sympothy to all effected by this unfortunate accident.

Regards

LGA777

Perhaps instead of ironic, you mean to just highlight how it just missed 10000 landings? As for as irony and connspiracists, some might think the 8 landings short is also the same as the line date added up 1+4+2001=8 .

I just saw this plane taking off from JFK this past Monday. I was out with a few spotters and we were joking about the silly red roof on the paint scheme and what it might have meant. You know, we were just out taking photos, enjoying the sun and each others company.

I never thought I'd be typing here a few days later just shocked to hear such sad news.

My prayers are with all those suffering right now and those departed.

Quoting Live4peanuts (Reply 104):
This is my first post on this great website.

Welcome to the site, though I wish it were in happier times for you.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Jokestar
Posted 2008-05-30 21:40:38 and read 38768 times.

Very scary to see the picture of the aircraft in that state, after flying LAX-GUA-SJO-BOG-SJO-SAL-LAX with them in row 1 last year. Very sad to hear of the deaths, I hope the families are alright and also the many people who were injured.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fiv...rash/2008/05/31/1211654354845.html

Sam.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-30 21:49:37 and read 38652 times.



Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 83):
Where are the flight attendants? I could not see any of them participating in the evacuation process. There was even a passenger trying to exit the aircraft where the fuselage was broken. Does anyone know what happened to the cabin crew?

I was wondering the exact same thing. TACA has officially stated there were four flight attendants on duty for this flight, while five more were deadheading (they were being repositioned as part of their assigned trip).

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-05-30 22:04:33 and read 38683 times.

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/536/536785/flybil2_1212175438.jpg

Reversers? I hope we get info from the CVR and FDR soon... stops us guessing.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AR385
Posted 2008-05-30 22:24:25 and read 38483 times.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inter...as/elppgl/20080530elpepuint_20/Tes

In Spanish only

In a nutshell. The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

Either this guy doesn't know how to shut his trap, or there's some truth in what he is saying, which I doubt. In any case, if the braking system actually failed, then a whole new can of worms has been opened.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-30 22:49:28 and read 38283 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

That's a very technical statement to be taken for someone who was not involved directly with the accident.
I found it contradictory with the previous issue that stated that the airplane landed in the middle of the wet runway which is no more than 6200 feet long.
Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2008-05-30 22:52:39 and read 38232 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
Either this guy doesn't know how to shut his trap, or there's some truth in what he is saying, which I doubt. In any case, if the braking system actually failed, then a whole new can of worms has been opened.

I recall after the somewhat similar TAM accident a little while back that various government officials were initially saying similar unfounded things that weren't backed up by any facts whatsoever. Often it seemed like they were openly arguing with the actual investigators, who were clearly exasperated at times and just wanted the rest of the government to shut up and let them do their work, which they ended up doing quickly and professionally.

Of course, if this does end up sharing the same set of circumstances that led to the TAM accident (and I'm giving this guy probably more benefit of the doubt than he deserves here), then I think you start thinking about it in terms of a design flaw with the airplane rather than a training issue. Clearly there are things that are intuitive and things that are not intuitive, and at a certain point you stop saying "well, they just need to learn it" and accept the facts that humans are human and the most important thing is to just prevent the accident. If that means redesigning the system so it's easier for pilots to use, then that's what it means.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-05-30 23:14:30 and read 38204 times.

A fair few videos here which shows the sort of approach pilots have to fly at Toncontin:-

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=toncontin&sitesearch=#

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-30 23:34:17 and read 38048 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 110):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

That's a very technical statement to be taken for someone who was not involved directly with the accident.
I found it contradictory with the previous issue that stated that the airplane landed in the middle of the wet runway which is no more than 6200 feet long.

Not just contradictory but questionable. Are these people even capable of conducting a serious investigation? Or will it be as chaotic as the rescue effort?

Backing up that passenger's account, the Associated Press now quotes airport manager Carlos Ramos as saying: "The plane inexplicably circled the city twice and it ran out of runway because it landed more than halfway down the length of the strip. It didn't touch down where they normally do, at the start of the runway."

[Edited 2008-05-30 23:54:21]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-05-30 23:50:36 and read 38046 times.

About where it landed, different account here (from a 757 pilot on PPrune):-

"I just emailed my friend managing our operation at TGU and he said the new captain landed in the touchdown zone so please take the long landing assumption I just made for what it was, careless assessment of an unknown cause. I have landed there over 500 times with no problem with runway length. If the pilot touched down, as my friend stated, in the touchdown zone then the Airbus autobrakes and spoilers should have brought it to a full stop with plenty of margin, even with the small tail wind. Why didn't it?"

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2008-05-31 00:22:32 and read 37867 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 92):
He told me the jet banked in excess of 90 deg to each side.

I am sure it was a wild ride but 90 degrees? That would be wings vertical.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 103):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
Weather is not to blame. If the pilots decide to land and the weather is not within limits, they are responsible.

And are pilots to blame for bad weather reporting as well? Central America is notorious for not updating rapidly changing weather conditions in a timely manner.

Fair enough. But that still means the weather is blameless.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

Viaggiare says it well:

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 113):
. Are these people even capable of conducting a serious investigation? Or will it be as chaotic as the rescue effort?

There are redundant brakes, redundant hydraulics, redundant command systems, even redundant pilots. Anything can happen but just plain brake failure isn't very likely.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: QualityDr
Posted 2008-05-31 00:32:54 and read 37818 times.

CNN Online is now reporting 7 fatalities, according to local officials. No further details on who these additional victims are, and whether they were passengers, crew or unfortunate locals.

The report does claim the aircraft landed "amid high winds and low visibility" but that "weather did not appear to have played a role in the accident." As I am neither a pilot nor an accident investigator, I can't rationalize those two statements.

I wish peace for the departed, and rapid recoveries for the injured.

QD

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Trekster
Posted 2008-05-31 00:35:42 and read 37900 times.



Quoting Tacoronte (Reply 75):

Oh my god!!!!!
I dont think I have ever seen a video like that before.

Hopefully the F/O will pull through and we can learn what happened.

Dan

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-31 00:48:32 and read 37737 times.



Quoting QualityDr (Reply 116):
CNN Online is now reporting 7 fatalities, according to local officials. No further details on who these additional victims are, and whether they were passengers, crew or unfortunate locals.

CNN says that one of the fatalities is a taxi dríver. His car got crushed.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-05-31 00:51:46 and read 37748 times.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
In a nutshell. The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

Either this guy doesn't know how to shut his trap, or there's some truth in what he is saying, which I doubt. In any case, if the braking system actually failed, then a whole new can of worms has been opened.

This appear unlikely to be the case as the brakes were hot and steaming/smoking slightly in the video from reply 81 (at the 20sec) mark where the fireman is hosing down the engine, you can also see the damaged landing gear wheel steaming from the rim, so brake failure would seem to be unlikely (worn with less effectiveness maybe).

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NEMA
Posted 2008-05-31 01:02:56 and read 37743 times.

Some immediate post crash video footage here showing passengers escaping etc..

Apologies if already posted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7428890.stm

[Edited 2008-05-31 01:04:39]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: QualityDr
Posted 2008-05-31 01:36:42 and read 37499 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 118):
CNN says that one of the fatalities is a taxi dríver. His car got crushed.

Yes, apparently he was one of the four early fatalities reported. I don't see any other news reports online (in the past hour) listing seven fatalities; at least not here in the U.S. No clarification on the three "new" fatalities from CNN either; not yet.

QD

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viasa
Posted 2008-05-31 01:43:31 and read 37491 times.

This plane was in maintenance for about a month at Copesa (in SJO). Before it was operated for Martinair Holland for it's Intra-American routes.

All TACA planes wear the flag of a country (San Salvador, Peru, Costa Rica) - so you can see which airline operate the plan (TACA Int'l, TACA Peru or TACA Costa Rica). The only airplane without the flag must be EI-TAF...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-05-31 01:52:07 and read 37410 times.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 115):
There are redundant brakes, redundant hydraulics, redundant command systems, even redundant pilots. Anything can happen but just plain brake failure isn't very likely.

 checkmark 

Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 119):
so brake failure would seem to be unlikely (worn with less effectiveness maybe).

 checkmark  but lack of traction on a slippery runway would seem to me to be much more likely.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-05-31 01:56:51 and read 37417 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 123):
but lack of traction on a slippery runway would seem to me to be much more likely.

Agreed...Water on a short runway and bad judgement = Bad news for unlucky passengers and city population.

RIP to the victims....and a fast recovery to the survivors.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Breiz
Posted 2008-05-31 02:36:05 and read 37245 times.

The Airbus' press release, just for the record, because there is not much information in it:
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...tems/2008_05_30_taca_accident.html

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LN-KGL
Posted 2008-05-31 03:27:37 and read 37304 times.



A small illustration I made based on measurements done with Google Earth.

EI-TAF came to a full stop hitting an embankment almost exactly 100 metres beyond the end of the runway after rolling sharply down a 20 m high drop from the runway.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mirrodie
Posted 2008-05-31 05:20:33 and read 36568 times.



Quoting Viasa (Reply 122):
The only airplane without the flag must be EI-TAF...

I did have the flag originally but after the repaint, it disappeared.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2008-05-31 05:27:44 and read 36538 times.

This looks like a re run of the AOM DC10.

I expect that this plane soon be scrapped as well.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Maskeer
Posted 2008-05-31 05:31:22 and read 36506 times.



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 86):
The final decision rests with the pilot.

I'm not saying it was the case of this accident, but I'm sure there are many ways pilots can be pressured into taking decisions they wouldn't be happy with, especially if union protection or alternative jobs aren't as good as in the US.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-31 05:39:04 and read 36496 times.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 128):
I expect that this plane soon be scrapped as well.

There is no more future for this a/c. Another A320 leaving our world  Sad

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pecevanne
Posted 2008-05-31 06:22:38 and read 36242 times.

I am not able to see any speedbrakes over the wing, this could be a factor on this accident.
In the A-320 SPEEDBRAKES DEPLOY AUTOMATICALLY, if arm before landing, indeed, , landin checklist on ECAM should read LANDING NO BLUE, means that speed brakes and other relevant points are ready for landing.
If crew members aply take off power to discontinue the landing maneuver, SPEEDBRAKES RETRACT.
We have to wait until recorders are open.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-05-31 07:00:59 and read 36268 times.

Since this technically an Irish aircraft, would Irish investigators take part?

In Central America we love to place blame. Unfortunately, instead of having an impartial and objective report, i predict the blame of the accident will ultimately be tainted with national pride.

Honduras will blame Salvadoran owned TACA for incompetence, Salvadoreans will blame Honduras for a crappy airport. The truth - i suspect - will be in the middle somewhere.

Another similar accident..


Big version: Width: 590 Height: 350 File size: 72kb

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-05-31 07:06:28 and read 36028 times.

Quoting Viasa (Reply 122):
All TACA planes wear the flag of a country (San Salvador, Peru, Costa Rica) - so you can see which airline operate the plan (TACA Int'l, TACA Peru or TACA Costa Rica). The only airplane without the flag must be EI-TAF...

Taca Honduras operates the remaining portion of the flight, if I remember correctly when I've done this flight, there is a crew swap in TGU. So TACA Honduras operates TGU-SAP-MIA-SAP-TGU and then when they return back to TGU in the evening there is a crew swap again in TGU to operate TGU-SAL, probably back to the original El Salvador crew. Who knows...

I'm assuming the reason it has to be a Honduran crew operating the flight from TGU on it's because it's a Honduran slot to MIA that TACA acquired from SAHSA and in addition it operates a Honduran domestic segment TGU-SAP. Maybe someone that works at TACA has more info on this.

Also, per "la Prensa" in Honduras, the airport (Toncontin) is now closed to any aircraft that holds more than 42 pax... effective next week any larger aircraft will be flying into "Palmerola" airforce base, which will eventually be restructured for passenger service. For now the airforce will facilitate the services under emergency mode...

What would the city code be then?

http://www.laprensahn.com/ediciones/...dera_que_exploto_con_tragico_saldo

[Edited 2008-05-31 07:13:21]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2008-05-31 07:58:30 and read 35696 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 132):
Since this technically an Irish aircraft, would Irish investigators take part?

I would assume so.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 132):
In Central America we love to place blame. Unfortunately, instead of having an impartial and objective report, i predict the blame of the accident will ultimately be tainted with national pride.

Honduras will blame Salvadoran owned TACA for incompetence, Salvadoreans will blame Honduras for a crappy airport. The truth - i suspect - will be in the middle somewhere.

The blaming part is sad but true. The posturing has of course already begun...  Sad

Quoting Pecevanne (Reply 131):
I am not able to see any speedbrakes over the wing, this could be a factor on this accident.
In the A-320 SPEEDBRAKES DEPLOY AUTOMATICALLY, if arm before landing, indeed, , landin checklist on ECAM should read LANDING NO BLUE, means that speed brakes and other relevant points are ready for landing.
If crew members aply take off power to discontinue the landing maneuver, SPEEDBRAKES RETRACT.
We have to wait until recorders are open.

Asked and answered. Once hydraulics are lost, the spoilers would drop down again due to gravity. We can't tell from the pics what the spoilers did.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-31 07:59:20 and read 35730 times.



Quoting Viasa (Reply 122):
The only airplane without the flag must be EI-TAF

Five different 320-233s are involved with TA and using the Irish registration:
EI-TAB
EI-TAC
EI-TAD
EI-TAF
EI-TAG

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AAH732UAL
Posted 2008-05-31 07:58:43 and read 35707 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 100):
While I can see a complex RNP approach being added - there are too many aircraft with too little certified avionics to make that a required approach.

Yeah that is the problem w/ any type of new approach and most airlines may not want to pay to upgrade for the just TGU. Like COA and Miami Air would be the only Airlines able of RNP stuff right off the start. AA may or may not want to upgrade to GPS MMR in the FMC and train crews just for 1 airport w/ like 1 flight a day. I guess its a catch 22 in the long run.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pecevanne
Posted 2008-05-31 08:18:03 and read 35563 times.

quoting my note today crew should announce "SPOILERS DEPLOY" AT LANDING, and they must verify reverse thrust and positive breaking,in case they wanted to abort landing, advancing thrust lever to flex or toga, SPOILERS SHOULD RETRACT.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Carmenlu15
Posted 2008-05-31 08:25:17 and read 35520 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 108):

*shudder*

I'm always seeing 'em 'buses on approach over here... never thought I'd see one of them in such a state  Sad

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 132):
In Central America we love to place blame. Unfortunately, instead of having an impartial and objective report, i predict the blame of the accident will ultimately be tainted with national pride.

Honduras will blame Salvadoran owned TACA for incompetence, Salvadoreans will blame Honduras for a crappy airport. The truth - i suspect - will be in the middle somewhere.

True, I can already see that happening... I still hope the investigation report is as unbiased and accurate as possible, but we'll have to see...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Logos
Posted 2008-05-31 08:42:53 and read 35401 times.

I know I'm coming late to the thread here, but I have to confess shock after examining the approach plates and viewing several of the YouTube videos of successful approaches and landings to TGU (particularly from the cockpit perspective). No ILS, mountainous terrain all around and the pilot must absolutely stick the landing after clearing descending terrain (on Runway 02 at least) with less than 6,000 feet of landing area.

With all those factors involved, it wouldn't take very much in the way of an errant weather forecast or any other small mistake or failure to cause an accident like this. What's amazing is the fact that planes as large as 757s land safely here the vast majority of the time. That's a tribute to the skill of the flight crews.

RIP to those who lost their lives here and condolences to their friends and family.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

[Edited 2008-05-31 09:00:54]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Aljrooney
Posted 2008-05-31 08:50:02 and read 35360 times.

Last Year I flew into BLA in Venezuela on an Aserca DC-9 during a thunderstorm.It was like landing on a river. Landing rollout was a bit of a rollercoaster with full reverse and the pilot standing on the brakes as we fishtailed down the runway. This is an 8000ft strip and we only slowed to taxi speed well inside the red end of runway lights.
If EI-TAF landed at the end of the touchdown zone I think he would be struggling on a good day. IMHO (which probably doesn't mean much!)

RIP to those who perished and thoughts with their families.

Al

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2008-05-31 09:52:16 and read 35018 times.

Soto Cano / Palmerola Comayagua Airport, Tegucigalpa "new intenational airport" already has codes: MHSC and XPL
Hope this time the Honduran government finally realise that Toncontín is no more, unless they want to keep using it as San Salvador Ilopango MSSS or San José Pavas SYQ.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Bingo
Posted 2008-05-31 09:59:46 and read 35431 times.

My uncle sent me about 30 pictures from the scene. Here's one of the left seater. Hopefully he did make it contrary to what everyone is saying...

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 480 File size: 74kb
Taca A320 Overrun at TGU


Also the Centro American Integration Bank is confirming on their website that their President was killed.
http://www.bcie.org/english/index.php

Our thoughts and prayers are with those whose lives were affected by this accident...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-05-31 10:09:39 and read 34962 times.



Quoting Bingo (Reply 142):

Jeez, that pics look terrific

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: FrmrCAPCADET
Posted 2008-05-31 10:17:14 and read 34847 times.

Just a general question. Would there be some sort of regional turboprop that has better low speed maneuverability and landing speed which would be inherently safer for airstrips such as this?

PS If someone was seated near an exit and helping other people out, why not grab your luggage as you are the last one or two people out of the plane.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Davescj
Posted 2008-05-31 10:20:56 and read 34832 times.



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 144):
PS If someone was seated near an exit and helping other people out, why not grab your luggage as you are the last one or two people out of the plane.

Because the crew is still waiting on you!

Further, if the plane is on fire, you don't have the seconds to spare. The few seconds could cost you your life, not to mention that last person behind you.

If possible, the recovery crew I'm sure would do their best to get luggage off the plane/out of the holds when it is safe.

Dave

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-05-31 10:22:28 and read 34932 times.



Quoting Bingo (Reply 142):
My uncle sent me about 30 pictures from the scene. Here's one of the left seater. Hopefully he did make it contrary to what everyone is saying...

Wow, it appears that the Captain is gripping onto some type of console. If you look closely, it looks like blood on the console. We can guess at this point that the Captain is still alive due to the grip of his fingers. That is a very interesting picture, and thanks for sharing. It looked so chaotic with the locals trying to break the cockpit windows trying to get them out. I really feel for those people.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MAN23R
Posted 2008-05-31 10:31:34 and read 34793 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 146):
Wow, it appears that the Captain is gripping onto some type of console. If you look closely, it looks like blood on the console. We can guess at this point that the Captain is still alive due to the grip of his fingers. That is a very interesting picture, and thanks for sharing. It looked so chaotic with the locals trying to break the cockpit windows trying to get them out. I really feel for those people.

yes you can see the captains head is faced down, and may be already dead at this point, anyways lets got presume untill we get the full facts.

lastly RIP to those who lost their lives, my heart goes out to the families affected.

Scott

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CptRegionalJet
Posted 2008-05-31 10:36:26 and read 34742 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 143):
Jeez, that pics look terrific

While it is interesting to see some first hand pictures/movies of an accident,
maybe we should think about not to post certain kinds of pictures on the web,
at least out of respect for the ones who obviously lost their lives.

Just my thoughts

CptRegionalJet

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AirplaneBoy
Posted 2008-05-31 10:37:42 and read 34683 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 98):
The FA or FA's in the forward section might have sustained serious injuries, just by looking at the cockpit section.

F9Animal- that's very possible. I sincerely hope that they are okay. I was just wondering about their condition as all too often, most people forget about the FAs (who are responsible for conducting an efficient evacuation) while only being concerned for the passengers and flight deck crew. I don't think FAs receive the recognition they deserve sometimes. The Air France A340 incident in Toronto comes to mind - it was the quick actions and efficient evacuation of the cabin crew that contributed to the high number of survivors on that flight. IIRC, nearly all pax, if not all, survived.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 107):
I was wondering the exact same thing. TACA has officially stated there were four flight attendants on duty for this flight, while five more were deadheading (they were being repositioned as part of their assigned trip).

Wow... so that means that there were potentially 9 FAs to help evacuate the aircraft. What surprised me the most about the evacuation footage was the slow evacuation process - there was still a steady stream of passengers exiting the aircraft at door 2L, but no FA shouting commands to get passengers to exit quickly. In addition, passengers did not seem to be directed to run away from the aircraft. Most people know that the most urgent threats upon any accident are explosions and fire. People seemed to be walking away with no one leading or guiding them to RUN away from the aircraft. But these are merely my observations of the footage I viewed through the provided links. I understand that there are many unknowns about the circumstances.

cheers

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-05-31 10:42:29 and read 34719 times.

I thought this site is called Airliners.net, not Ghouls-inc.net.
I really feel for the uncaring who has the insensitivity to broadcast this picture at large. Would you sell it to the family, too, may I ask ?
Besides, how does the Captain's spilled blood traces help us in our -generally, totally - uninformed guesswork ?
SHAME ON YOU !!!

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-05-31 10:43:18 and read 34719 times.



Quoting CptRegionalJet (Reply 148):

I'm going to agree with that. To someone like me who's completely divorced from the situation, such images are poignant records of the way events unfolded. To those more closely involved, I'm not so sure.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-05-31 10:51:12 and read 34663 times.



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 144):
Just a general question. Would there be some sort of regional turboprop that has better low speed maneuverability and landing speed which would be inherently safer for airstrips such as this?

Why the Twin Otter of course...Or Quad Otter (Dash 7)...Of course a Dash8 will do along with most other 2 engine turbos (with the exception of the most gutless engined variety) Altitude may still make it interesting on some aircraft.

On a sadder note....I agree that the reply 142 was in bad taste. It has already been reported that the captain didn't make it. I am sure the family would like him remembered in a less gruesome state.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-05-31 10:54:52 and read 34654 times.



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 144):
Would there be some sort of regional turboprop that has better low speed maneuverability and landing speed which would be inherently safer for airstrips such as this?

I'm not aware about the specific answer, but TACA Regional normally operates TGU-SAP, TGU-GUA as well as TGU-LCE by means of regional planes: ATR and SH6.
They will initiate TGU-SAL with ATR-42 on June 15th.

Loaded schedule:
TA 216....TGU 14:55........SAL 15:55......Daily........ATR-42
TA 217....SAL 19:30........TGU 20:30......Daily........ATR-42

It should be noted that TGU allows landings at night and supplied by regional planes.
The domestic operator Aerolineas Sosa also utilizes turboprop equipment at TGU.

GUA: Guatemala City.
SAP: San Pedro Sula, Honduras.
LCE: La Ceiba, Honduras.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-05-31 10:57:43 and read 34628 times.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 135):
EI-TAB
EI-TAC
EI-TAD
EI-TAF
EI-TAG

And before anyone asks, they only have Irish registrations because otherwise they couldn't operate into Cuba and be ACMI'd to CU on demand. Since the bulk of TA's fleet has US registrations, they would be affected by the embargo and could not operate to Cuba on a regular basis, nor be leased at all.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2008-05-31 11:10:52 and read 34547 times.



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 78):
What shocks me right now is that many passengers can be seen in the [Noticero T47] video evacuating the aircraft carrying their personal belongings.

Yes, that's really bizarre. However, I am wondering how many of us would resist the temptation to grab personal belongings under such circumstances - particularly when it is an "uncontrolled" evacuation for which the passengers and cabin crew have not been prepared.

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 94):
Yes, the pilots that fly into TGU, be it AA, CO, TA, CM, are specifically trained for that route. Meaning if you want to bid to fly that route you have to be rated for it. For US carriers the training allows them to fly into TGU and UIO...

What is the incentive to undergo such additional training and assuming a much higher risk of trashing an aircraft and killing yourself and/or passengers? Does the flight deck crew get extra pay?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Bingo
Posted 2008-05-31 11:24:02 and read 34506 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 150):
SHAME ON YOU !!!

I didnt sell the picture. I didnt take the picture. I didnt make any obscene comments about the picture. I asked you all the pray for this individual and all others on board. All I did was provide you with a glimpse of the risks that these individuals make day after day. I think reporting on casulties and fatalities before the information is confirm is much more insulting than this. (CNN)

Maybe the next time you complain about a bumpy flight you all should stop to wonder how much responsibility is on those shoulders. Much as the flag raising at Iwo Jima or the Flag Raising at Ground Zero...this picture symbolizes the spirit of survival and the costs that some make. This picture gave me a greater respect for a profession we often take for granted.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2008-05-31 11:50:31 and read 34319 times.



Quoting Bingo (Reply 142):
Also the Centro American Integration Bank is confirming on their website that their President was killed.
http://www.bcie.org/english/index.php

The other passenger killed was the wife of the Brazilian ambassador to Honduars (who was also on the flight).

Quoting Bingo (Reply 156):
I didnt sell the picture. I didnt take the picture. I didnt make any obscene comments about the picture. I asked you all the pray for this individual and all others on board.

The picture has been moderated anyway, so I think there is no need to discuss it further as others will not be able to understand what the discussion is about.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2008-05-31 12:04:07 and read 34212 times.



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 155):
However, I am wondering how many of us would resist the temptation to grab personal belongings under such circumstances

I times of panic, people cling strongly to personal belongings and place great importance on objects even if they have no real importance. Locating one's jacket can seem like a life and death problem when in traumatic shock...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2008-05-31 12:15:55 and read 34171 times.

Apparently now five deaths have been confirmed - two-bypassers were killed in addition to two pax and the captain (the male pax died of a heart attack in hospital).

The F/O apparently no longer is in life-threatening condition, but maybe one of his feet must be amputated.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LGA777
Posted 2008-05-31 12:29:41 and read 34112 times.

Because of who the two passengers who died where, they where probably seated in First Class, which probably took a larger share of the impact because of the embakement. Ironically in many accidents where there where a small number of fatalities and a large number of survivors those who lost their lives where often in First Class since it is in the very front of the aircraft.

Again RIP to those lost and a speedy recovery to those who are injured.

LGA777

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-31 13:18:51 and read 33950 times.

TGU ATC audio in mp3 format from yesterday between 1530Z and 1600Z...

Soon after switching away from the approach control frequency, aircraft crew informs tower (10m33s into the tape) they've established visual contact with the runway.

Now here's the transcript (translated) for that last piece of relevant audio between 13m25s and 13m36s into the tape...

TGU TOWER: THREE NINER ZERO. WIND ONE NINER ZERO. ONE ZERO KNOTS. CLEARED TO LAND. RUNWAY ZERO TWO AS REQUESTED. CAUTION RUNWAY WET.

TA390: ROGER. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. CLEARED TO LAND. RUNWAY ZERO TWO. TACA THREE NINER ZERO.


[Edited 2008-05-31 13:23:53]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-31 14:00:51 and read 33639 times.

Quoting Logos (Reply 139):
No ILS, mountainous terrain all around and the pilot must absolutely stick the landing after clearing descending terrain (on Runway 02 at least) with less than 6,000 feet of landing area. That's a tribute to the skill of the flight crews.

Yes, the pilots are skilled. But that is what they do every day, what they are trained to do and why reliance on ILS and FMS to fly the whole flight just will not cut it as a pilot.

The landing at MHTG is not particularly difficult, and not dangerous based on the length of the runway. There are many much busier airports in the world with shorter runways.

The problem with the approach is the mountains, and the heavy workload it puts on the flight crew - because they are not just full time flying the aircraft, they have to also be full time navigating the plane. It is a very busy time for a two man cockpit crew.

Quoting Logos (Reply 139):
What's amazing is the fact that planes as large as 757s land safely here the vast majority of the time.

The B757 is a great aircraft for these high altitude, relatively short runways. You should watch them in the mountains of Colorado at Eagle and Rifle.

The B757 has a great power to weight ratio for takeoffs and big danged brakes for stopping. Though not part of the legal stopping distance calculation, the reverse thrust on the B757 is powerful also.

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 144):
Just a general question. Would there be some sort of regional turboprop that has better low speed maneuverability and landing speed which would be inherently safer for airstrips such as this?

MHTG is a national capital airport. People doing business in Honduras are not willing to give up direct flights from the capital to Mexico City or Miami (750-800 nm), Caracas - 1200 nm.

A turboprop only airport would require a stop and change of aircraft.

That would be a big economic disadvantage for Honduras - making access to regulator agencies and staff's more difficult. Honduras certainly does not need to add impediments to their economy or their citizens opportunities to improve their lives.

Now opening up the air force base with workable ground transport to Tegucigalpa would solve the main issues. The airbase was opened in 1981 - has a 2,441mx 45m runway (8,001 ft x 148 ft). MHSC is at elevation 628m (2,062 ft). That is a substantially longer, lower runway.

There are still terrain issues which might prevent installing an ILS at MHSC - but it has much less demanding terrain issues based on what I can see on maps and satellith photos.

ENQ might - emphasis might - be an IATA code for the airport, or possible XPL under the airport original name of Palmerola Air Base.

[Edited 2008-05-31 14:03:54]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pecevanne
Posted 2008-05-31 15:38:48 and read 33288 times.

Big challenge landing with 10 knots tail wind and runway wet.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-05-31 15:41:27 and read 33268 times.



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 155):
What is the incentive to undergo such additional training and assuming a much higher risk of trashing an aircraft and killing yourself and/or passengers? Does the flight deck crew get extra pay?

Well to some, such as a junior FO or Captain, the incentive may be be able to hold a line and not be on reserve. I know it sounds silly but think about it... in addition every time I've talked to the pilots that work the TGU route they mention how they like something challenging... keeping in mind that because they do this so often with no problem they may become complacent and like in this case not sure if that's the only reason but they probably should not have landed under the weather condition...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-31 15:59:38 and read 33170 times.



Quoting Pecevanne (Reply 163):
Big challenge landing with 10 knots tail wind and runway wet.

Like I mentioned back in #87, lots of operational links in the accident chain on this one. I'm really curious as to what the investigation will bring forth from a human factors standpoint (once the CVR and be read and the surviving pilot interviewed) as far as why they commenced the approach and also didn't discontinue it.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-05-31 16:06:53 and read 33182 times.

A good friend of mine from Honduras used to fly MSY-SAP-TGU frequently on TA before switching over to AA due to his preference of the 757 being used. He was from TGU so he always used to tell me stories about harrowing landings there on 737-200's and Airbuses. He also flew TAN SASHA quite a bit and he never felt "uncomfortable" on taking the 727 into TGU (ironically) from what he told me. Quite interesting to recall some of his stories.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Logos
Posted 2008-05-31 16:06:56 and read 33152 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 162):
The landing at MHTG is not particularly difficult, and not dangerous based on the length of the runway. There are many much busier airports in the world with shorter runways.

Really? Could you name a couple of them because I sure can't. SNA is the only one that comes to mind readily and, as you say, it doesn't have the mountains.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: FrmrCAPCADET
Posted 2008-05-31 16:13:44 and read 33120 times.

RField - thanks for the information. Puts things into context

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-31 16:28:22 and read 33074 times.



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 155):
What is the incentive to undergo such additional training and assuming a much higher risk of trashing an aircraft and killing yourself and/or passengers? Does the flight deck crew get extra pay?

The mentality it takes to be a successful pilot is "With proper training and equipment, I can take on anything in the world and be successful."

I'm not trying to put anyone down - but the fighter pilot myth has some truth. A good pilot never believes he/ she cannot find a way out of any situation. They know that their mistakes can have terrible consequences, but that their training and experience can prevent mistakes and they can do almost anything within the aircraft's envelope. If they do not believe that deep in their heart, they are dangerous in an aircraft.

Now, pilots do a much better job of balancing risks and rewards than movies depict. They work with facts, not feelings. They know when the math and their skills are safe, and when it is unsafe. They have to believe in the math.

The math and experience says landing on a wet runway at MHTG with a 10 kt tailwind is safer than the more dangerous Rwy 20 approach with limited visibility. We have no idea what went wrong in this case - but literally thousands of pilots have made that same landing under near identical conditions - safely.

But problems can strike anyone. A USAF C-130 overran that runway - a plane which can safely land and stop in less than 150M / 450 ft.

Pilots are also well trained to make instantaneous decisions - such as the overrun at EBBR last week. Those pilots knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that the decision to reject the takeoff would result in the plane going off the end of the runway with major damage, probably a write-off.

We don't yet know why they were so convinced that accepting probable destruction of the aircraft was better than trying to fly a circuit for an emergency landing. But they had less time than it takes to read this sentence to diagnose a problem and make a decision.

MHTG has a reputation world-wide as a challenging approach - a true test of a pilot's skill both at navigation and at flying. The best want to fly to the most difficult airports.

This airport does not have a reputation as a dangerous airport or a killer. But the conditions and runway length do make the margin of error very small. It has to be done right, every time. The pilots cannot make more than very minor mistakes at this place.

Yes, it's an ego deal - but an ego required for a successful top pilot.

I remember something a pilot in the Navy told me many, many years ago when I ask him why he was willing to land and takeoff aircraft carriers.

"I know I can do those landings and takeoffs. No pilot wants to crash, but anyone afraid is too dangerous to fly anything."

Yes, many pilots eventually find limits to their skill, but until they reach / find those limits, great pilots never stop wanting to expand their skills, training and experience.

If the pilot does not truly believe that MHTG is an approach and landing they can do safely, consistently and correctly - do you want to fly with them to any airport?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-31 16:29:08 and read 33123 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 166):
A good friend of mine from Honduras used to fly MSY-SAP-TGU frequently on TA before switching over to AA due to his preference of the 757 being used. He was from TGU so he always used to tell me stories about harrowing landings there on 737-200's and Airbuses. He also flew TAN SASHA quite a bit and he never felt "uncomfortable" on taking the 727 into TGU (ironically) from what he told me. Quite interesting to recall some of his stories.

I jumpseated MIA-TGU back in the early 1980s when I was with Air Florida, and the place is an eye-opener, and one that has little room for error. Our -15 powered 732s couldn't make it non-stop back to MIA, so our return service was TGU-SAP-MIA.

The captain of that daily 3-legger came by the Dispatch office once he got back, and was all flustered about "why we didn't tell him" about the navaids, but we had no idea what he was talking about. There was a VOR there, but rarely did it work back then. There were a couple of NDBs in the area, but for reasons that remain unknown to this very day, someone swapped the transmitters at the site, and ABC was broadcasting from XYZ's physical location, and XYZ broadcasting from ABC's location. Captain Ralph had a wee bit of difficulty identifying the airport, and stated that "the navaids were strapped to the back of goats" down there.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-31 16:44:53 and read 33033 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 169):
The mentality it takes to be a successful pilot is "With proper training and equipment, I can take on anything in the world and be successful."

I'm not trying to put anyone down - but the fighter pilot myth has some truth. A good pilot never believes he/ she cannot find a way out of any situation. They know that their mistakes can have terrible consequences, but that their training and experience can prevent mistakes and they can do almost anything within the aircraft's envelope. If they do not believe that deep in their heart, they are dangerous in an aircraft.

Now, pilots do a much better job of balancing risks and rewards than movies depict. They work with facts, not feelings. They know when the math and their skills are safe, and when it is unsafe. They have to believe in the math.

With all due respect, the above philosophies didn't serve those aboard Air Florida Flight 90 very well, given the tendency of human beings (i.e. the pilots) to engage in self-deceptive and reality-evasive behavior. A few months after the Jan. 1982 accident, there was an article in Science Digest written by a couple of biologists that took a detailed look at the accident sequence and offered some compelling conclusions about *ALL* humans possessing the potential to engage in these same types of behavior.

I have a MSWord file with the article; let me know if you want me to email you a copy.

[Edited 2008-05-31 17:06:48]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-31 16:55:23 and read 32960 times.



Quoting Logos (Reply 167):
Could you name a couple of them because I sure can't. SNA is the only one that comes to mind readily and, as you say, it doesn't have the mountains.

Now remember my statement was runway length - not the approach and surrounding terrain - TGU has that factor won hands down.

But some short runways with B737/A320 sized aircraft service which come to mind are SDU, JER, MDW, SDU, CGH

Data from worldaerodata.com of the shortest end of the longest runway at each airport:

SDU - 4,341 ft landing usable, 4,421 ft takeoff usable both Rwy 02R/20L
JER - 5,298 ft landing usable, 5,597 ft takeoff usable on Rwy 27
TGU - 5,442 ft landing usable, 6,312 ft takeoff usable Rwy 02
SNA - 5,701 ft takeoff or landing usable both Rwy 01L/19R
MDW - 5,826 ft landing usable, 6,522 ft takeoff usable Rwy 31C
CGH - 5,945 ft landing usable, 6,362 ft takeoff usable on Rwy 17R

GCI does not see commercial jets, but sees private jets - 4,788 ft rwy

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Logos
Posted 2008-05-31 17:10:18 and read 32881 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 172):
Now remember my statement was runway length - not the approach and surrounding terrain - TGU has that factor won hands down.

I hear you - still TGU is among the shortest, especially in usable landing area. Throw in the altitude (vs. both SNA and MDW) along with the terrain and the navigation load for the approach, and there just doesn't seem to be much room for error at all.

You do make a good point that, somehow, the vast majority of pilots do manage it safely, which shows it can be done and done consistently.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 171):
With all due respect, the above philosophies didn't serve those aboard Air Florida Flight 90 very well

That's true, which shows the need to combine the attitude with an acute awareness of the envelope of the aircraft. If I recall correctly, Flight 90 uncovered some things about the 737-200 in icing conditions which were, to that point, unknown and led to new procedures. I may be remembering it wrong though.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-31 17:24:13 and read 32814 times.



Quoting Logos (Reply 173):
Flight 90 uncovered some things about the 737-200 in icing conditions which were, to that point, unknown and led to new procedures. I may be remembering it wrong though.

Not to get too much further off-topic, but Boeing knew about the 737's pitch-up/roll-off tendency with contaminated leading edges well before the 1982 accident. There was a 2-part article on the subject in their "Airliner" magazine back in 1979, and I'm sure that they knew about it before even that..

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: QualityDr
Posted 2008-05-31 17:37:55 and read 32746 times.

Earlier today I referenced CNN online, who stated 7 fatalities. They have amended that report and changed the number of deaths to 5, citing an unspecified Honduras official that "the earlier report that seven people had died was erroneous."

A quick look through Google News indicates that many news sites globally are also stating 5 people lost their lives in this unfortunate event. However, there does seem to be some confusion about whether the fifth person was onboard the aircraft, or on the ground.

Of course, all sorts of speculation about causes (and remedies for future air travel to Tegucigalpa) is rampant in the media. I can't find any indication that the fight and data recorders have been recovered, although investigators from the US NTSB and US FAA have been sent (and maybe are already there), and also representatives from BEA of France and International Aero Engines will be part of the investigative team.

As a former investigator of chemical plant incidents, I wish this team good hunting for the causes...

QD

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-05-31 18:08:26 and read 32707 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 174):
There was a 2-part article on the subject in their "Airliner" magazine back in 1979, and I'm sure that they knew about it before even that..

.

Check that; the "Airliner" articles were in mid-1981...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-05-31 18:43:27 and read 32601 times.

Quoting QualityDr (Reply 175):
I can't find any indication that the fight and data recorders have been recovered,
You can easily reach them from the rear cabin, close to the bulkhead. It's not as if the airplane is destroyed or lying in 7500m of sea water.

Quoting QualityDr (Reply 175):
US FAA
They are not part of an accident investigation. I'm not even sure that the US NTSB and the BEA will be there. After all, this is a sovereign country, and as such they would invite the Irish (because of the registration), and some manufacturers' representatives as consultants.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 169):
The mentality it takes to be a successful pilot is "With proper training and equipment, I can take on anything in the world and be successful."
That quote, and the rest of your post, with due respect, is just a load of *top Gun* bull crap. The first sign I see -WE see - an ego trip is a sure way to keep a very open eye on that pilot and we generally find a way to give him some humility lessons and bring him back to standards.
Moreover, there is no - repeat NO - airfield or approach that any airline pilot cannotr fly. The measure of safety is that "No approach should require higher than average standards of piloting" and I have never heard of a captain failing the required check on the B or C- type airfields on the network.
We just do a job and we are just professionals and in our bi-annually evaluations, there's no mark for "Hollywood attitudes".

[Edited 2008-05-31 18:48:14]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-05-31 19:02:57 and read 32573 times.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 161):
TGU TOWER: THREE NINER ZERO. WIND ONE NINER ZERO.

Viaggiare,
On that tape, just after the crew changed over to the tower, they announced "Runway 02 in sight",
to which the tower responded with "...390, confirm you request runway 02. The wind is 200° at 10 knots..."
I couldn't understand the reason given by the 390 pilot for electing to land on 02 as my audio isn't very good and those South-American Spanish accents are quite difficult for me. I just caught "affirma" and "secura".

Could you give us a translation of that exchange, please ?

[Edited 2008-05-31 19:04:24]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2008-05-31 19:15:06 and read 32489 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 177):
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 169):
The mentality it takes to be a successful pilot is "With proper training and equipment, I can take on anything in the world and be successful."
That quote, and the rest of your post, with due respect, is just a load of *top Gun* bull crap. The first sign I see -WE see - an ego trip is a sure way to keep a very open eye on that pilot and we generally find a way to give him some humility lessons and bring him back to standards.

{Checkmark} Absolutely correct.

Most pilots know their limitations regardless of the quality of their training. Those that don't sometimes do wind up dead, injured, or worse--having killed or injured another person.

It's the truth. Most pilots worth their salt either have respect for the beast from the beginning or have their macho scared out of them early on with little consequence.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Arcano
Posted 2008-05-31 19:34:44 and read 32428 times.

Watching the news of the rescue time, it really shocked me to see the people running out of the broken fuselage...carrying their hand luggage!
Aren't all warnings pretty clear about leaving everything behind? besides, isn't that even a survival instinct?

Regards )( Arcano

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-31 19:45:19 and read 32438 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 178):
I couldn't understand the reason given by the 390 pilot for electing to land on 02

Sure, here's the rest of that particular exchange...

TA390: ROGER. AFFIRM REQUEST CIRCULAR ZERO TWO BECAUSE CIRCULAR FOR TWENTY IS NOT POSSIBLE AT PRESENT.

TGU TOWER: THREE NINER ZERO. PER REQUEST CONTINUE APPROACH RUNWAY ZERO TWO. NOTIFY ON BASE. WIND ONE NINER ZERO. ONE ZERO KNOTS.

TA390: WILL NOTIFY BASE. TACA THREE NINER ZERO. THANK YOU.


[Edited 2008-05-31 19:47:39]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Luisca
Posted 2008-05-31 19:45:33 and read 32411 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 169):
The mentality it takes to be a successful pilot is "With proper training and equipment, I can take on anything in the world and be successful."

I'm not trying to put anyone down - but the fighter pilot myth has some truth. A good pilot never believes he/ she cannot find a way out of any situation. They know that their mistakes can have terrible consequences, but that their training and experience can prevent mistakes and they can do almost anything within the aircraft's envelope. If they do not believe that deep in their heart, they are dangerous in an aircraft.

This confirms that you have no idea what it takes to be a pilot, one of the first things I got taught as a student pilot was that if something requires extraordinary skill then it probably shouldn't be done.

Now as a flight instructor if I have a student that thinks they can do anything I take them up for a little "remedial training" and scare the living $#!T out of them so that they never try to be macho again, so far it has worked, your whole post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I am not going to comment on what happened in TGU out of respect for a fellow colleague that lost his life in the line of work, I trust that the investigation will clear up whether or not there was a mistake in judgement.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-05-31 20:14:27 and read 32292 times.



Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 149):
F9Animal- that's very possible. I sincerely hope that they are okay. I was just wondering about their condition as all too often, most people forget about the FAs (who are responsible for conducting an efficient evacuation) while only being concerned for the passengers and flight deck crew. I don't think FAs receive the recognition they deserve sometimes. The Air France A340 incident in Toronto comes to mind - it was the quick actions and efficient evacuation of the cabin crew that contributed to the high number of survivors on that flight. IIRC, nearly all pax, if not all, survived.

You are absolutely right about the lack of recognition for the FA's. I have voiced this on several threads, and the outright importance of an FA's job, especially in emergencies. I am sure any FA's seated in the forward section certainly sustained some type of injury. I have not heard of any loss of flight crew on that flight, except for the captain.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-31 21:07:39 and read 32158 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 177):
I'm not even sure that the US NTSB and the BEA will be there. After

The Honduran officials have announced they have invited the NTSB to assist with the investingation. The engine and airframe manufacturers have been invited to send technical representatives.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-05-31 21:25:37 and read 32158 times.

Expanding on what the crew might have meant by "circular for twenty is not possible" ... about thirteen minutes earlier (28m46s into the previous tape) there was this transmission...

TA390: YES SIR. CONTINUING DIRECT TO PRESENT VOR. WE ARE GOING TO REQUEST TO PERFORM APPROACH TO ZERO TWO AND POSSIBLY IF WIND IS FIVE KNOTS TO LAND ON SAME BECAUSE IN THE CIRCULAR FOR TWENTY CLOUDS ARE VERY LOW.

TA390: SI SEÑOR. PROSEGUIMOS DIRECTO AL VOR PRESENTE. LE VAMOS A SOLICITAR EFECTUAR APROXIMACION A LA CERO DOS Y POSIBLEMENTE SI EL VIENTO ESTA CON CINCO NUDOS ATERRIZAR EN LA MISMA YA QUE EN LA CIRCULAR PARA LA VEINTE LAS NUBES ESTAN MUY BAJAS.

[Edited 2008-05-31 21:44:38]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-05-31 21:31:11 and read 32092 times.



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 155):
assuming a much higher risk of trashing an aircraft and killing yourself and/or passengers?



Quoting Pihero (Reply 177):
That quote, and the rest of your post, with due respect, is just a load of *top Gun* bull crap.



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 179):
Most pilots know their limitations regardless of the quality of their training. Those that don't sometimes do wind up dead, injured, or worse--having killed or injured another person.



Quoting Luisca (Reply 182):
This confirms that you have no idea what it takes to be a pilot, one

Maybe I stated it poorly.

Perhaps I should have answered the gentleman's question by saying pilots fly into dangerous airports with fear in their hearts and nervous anticipation of disaster.

But that is not my experience, nor something I believe is in the minds of other pilots.

Pilots expect problems on every approach, they expect problems on every takeoff, they expect problems on every flight. It is just as easy to kill yourself, crew and passengers on a nice landing at a 2 mile long CAT III runway on a perfectly clear calm day if you are not prepared as it is at MHTG in challenging conditions.

Pilots have to know their aircraft, their capabilities and when to say no. The level of skill, competence and training of the world's airline pilots is exceptional. They are the best of the best. They do not panic, they do not give up. They do their job with quiet competence and to the best of their abilities. Even when the situation goes to s-hit.

Yes there is a human factor to minimize the danger and take risks when we want to accomplish something - but that is something pilots are trained to recognize and avoid - hopefully.

When flying into an airport such as MHTG, the pilots are within their skill and competence levels. I suspect we will find this flight crew has made many landings at this airport in the past without any issues.

There is a tendency for people to say the airport is too dangerous, or the aircraft is unsafe at this airport in overrun incidents.

Nothing has changed at MHTG since the many successful flights of last week - just a heightened awareness that there are very small margins for error at this location - much smaller than many airports.

And it has not changed the opinion of commercial passenger pilots that they can safely land at the airport.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2008-05-31 23:12:54 and read 31824 times.



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 144):
Just a general question. Would there be some sort of regional turboprop that has better low speed maneuverability and landing speed which would be inherently safer for airstrips such as this?

I don't know about inherently safer. A determined pilot can crash any aircraft, no matter how "safe".

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 162):

Yes, the pilots are skilled. But that is what they do every day, what they are trained to do and why reliance on ILS and FMS to fly the whole flight just will not cut it as a pilot.

The landing at MHTG is not particularly difficult, and not dangerous based on the length of the runway. There are many much busier airports in the world with shorter runways.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
There is a tendency for people to say the airport is too dangerous, or the aircraft is unsafe at this airport in overrun incidents.

Nothing has changed at MHTG since the many successful flights of last week - just a heightened awareness that there are very small margins for error at this location - much smaller than many airports.

And it has not changed the opinion of commercial passenger pilots that they can safely land at the airport.

Indeed.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AR385
Posted 2008-05-31 23:48:01 and read 31773 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
When flying into an airport such as MHTG, the pilots are within their skill and competence levels

Assuming there was no mechanical malfunction. The pilots did not show that in this case. Question. Due to fiel length, is a go around once the plane has touched to runway possible in this airport?

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
There is a tendency for people to say the airport is too dangerous, or the aircraft is unsafe at this airport in overrun incidents.

I don't understand. If crews need to be specially trained to land at this airport, what about it in not dangerous?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2008-06-01 00:38:36 and read 31702 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
There is a tendency for people to say the airport is too dangerous, or the aircraft is unsafe at this airport in overrun incidents.

I wish to differ a little from the majority here and say that indeed TGU has a trickier approach than many airports, and that it involves more risks than others.

This being aviation, it is a risk that is taken professionally and conscientiously, with all possible guarantees added to that specific operation, but it still means that it represents more of a challenge than many other runways.

Weather has a way of very quickly compounding that difficulty there, and decisions have to be taken quickly in situations where the difference between a normal landing and disaster can stem from as little as a little windshear or a minute wrong actuation of the controls.

Judging and speculating about this particular accident at this particular airport should be well thought of and encompass all the parameters involved, not just the most obvious ones.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2008-06-01 04:55:33 and read 31341 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 155):
assuming a much higher risk of trashing an aircraft and killing yourself and/or passengers?



Quoting Pihero (Reply 177):
That quote, and the rest of your post, with due respect, is just a load of *top Gun* bull crap.



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 179):
Most pilots know their limitations regardless of the quality of their training. Those that don't sometimes do wind up dead, injured, or worse--having killed or injured another person.



Quoting Luisca (Reply 182):
This confirms that you have no idea what it takes to be a pilot, one

Thanks for your thoughts.

So my understanding is that there is no real professional incentive to apply/bid for "high-risk" airports other than getting an ego-boost? Or does it help when it comes, for example, to promotions, bidding for training for a new aircraft type or getting rostered for much sought-after destinations if you have volunteered to fly to "high-risk" destinations?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-06-01 08:55:41 and read 30838 times.

It's not a "high risk" destination.

It is a challenging approach and landing - but with familiarization training - MHTG is a safe airport for anyone with the skill levels of a top level commercial pilot.

That's the special training - this is what the mountains look like, this is what the navaids look like, this is how to fly the approach, this is what you see out the windows. The special training is not - how to make short field landings, how to make density altitude takeoffs, how to fly NDB and VOR approaches. A commerical pilot already has that training long before they get to a point of flying to MHTG.

To some extent it is like having a friend show you how to navigate through an unfamilar subway system or a complex auto traffic pattern/ intersection/ freeway system.

Once the pilot is familiar with the area, navaids and landmarks - it is well within their skill level. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why choose to fly that route?

Maybe a pilot wants to visit a new area of the world, a new country.

Maybe he finds some of his current routes a bit boring, or repetitive and wants a change.

Maybe the schedule works for his personal life commitments.

The reasons are as varied as the number of pilots who fly the route.

In my experience there are a few different types of people in this world.

Some want to be the best in their profession, their personal lives. They like new challenges and learning new things. They want to expand their competence and skills.

Others want to stay safe, to not push themselves to exceptional effort, maybe not even beyond the minimum required to keep a job.

Pilots tend to almost always be the first type. It's not just ego, it's the drive which all very successful people have - to do the best job possible, to be the best they can.

It is very true that every pilot has to learn they have limits, not just the physical limits of the aircraft flight envelope, but their personal skill levels. Now some pilots will not feel comfortable with the MHTG approach, especially having to fly that approach on a schedule. That doesn't mean they are any less skilled or competent.

The skill level, training and competence of the men and women who fly commercial passenger aircraft is very, very high.

Major airports like KATL or EGLL can be just as demanding in different ways as MHTG - because of the congestion and close proximity of other aircraft. That's one thing that doesn't happen at MHTG as I understand the pilot reports - the aircraft are not close to each other with another one lined up to land right behind you.

My flying started in a GA airport on the border of the DFW Class B airspace. I started with Cessna's in the pattern with bizjets and B737's. With 50-75 operations per hour on the single runway at times. I meet many pilots who are intimidated by the complexity of the airspace, the rapid pace, the need to get down and clear of the runway, the need to GO when cleared for takeoff. It is simply a matter of training and familiarization. Most pilots can handle it very well, once they take the time to learn the processes.

Would I attempt MHTG - maybe some day. Need many more hours - I'd probably be too old to fly by that time, and not enough money to afford a trip. I'll never fly a passenger jet, but any approach can be a challenge, and when you fly it perfectly - it is a thrill of a job well done.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-06-01 09:30:04 and read 30740 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 191):
The skill level, training and competence of the men and women who fly commercial passenger aircraft is very, very high.

Yes, but they're still human beings...

I think you'd find the article on the Air Florida crash enlightening... Email me at daopnlguy@yahoo.com and I'll send you a copy.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Logos
Posted 2008-06-01 09:37:33 and read 30701 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 186):
Perhaps I should have answered the gentleman's question by saying pilots fly into dangerous airports with fear in their hearts and nervous anticipation of disaster.

But that is not my experience, nor something I believe is in the minds of other pilots.

Pilots expect problems on every approach, they expect problems on every takeoff, they expect problems on every flight. It is just as easy to kill yourself, crew and passengers on a nice landing at a 2 mile long CAT III runway on a perfectly clear calm day if you are not prepared as it is at MHTG in challenging conditions.

Actually, I think I took your responses as you intended them and not that you were endorsing some sort of swaggering, over the top, devil may care attitude befits top pilots. Rather, you were responding to my putting forth that there were inherent (perhaps extreme) risks involved in operating out of TGU. It certainly looks that way to the layman, but, as you rightly pointed out, it is within the scope of the training and ability of the pilots who operate there, who, furthermore, must operate there with confidence in their ability to do so, lest they be a hazard to their passengers and themselves.

Professional pilots must have a professional attitude, but they do need to have confidence in their ability and training, or they shouldn't be in the cockpit. Is that about right? If so, I think we're on the same page.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-06-01 11:58:13 and read 30378 times.

I watched in the news yesterday that they want to apparently ban large aircraft from TGU and send them to a former US airbase, no idea if they mean SAP or a different airport. Anyone know what's up with that?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2008-06-01 12:29:16 and read 30260 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 172):
JER - 5,298 ft landing usable, 5,597 ft takeoff usable on Rwy 27

In normal circumstances, not a problem, because JER doesn't have any obstacles at either end of the runway; approaching TGU in cloudy skies, with a wet runway and knowing that there are steep hills right down the approach path, the approach will be a lot hairier; we know that with old Kai Tak, which had a runway a good mile longer than TGU. Land a good way down a wet, short runway and you're going to have difficulty stopping.

We actually have quite a steep drop (much moreso than TGU or even CGH) at the end of our Runway 27, though thankfully no aircraft has yet gone off the end.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Klwright69
Posted 2008-06-01 13:15:59 and read 30117 times.



Quoting Flpuck6 (Reply 29):
Having flown into this airport several times when I was younger ( on TAN/SAHSA / Aviateca / American) I am surprised there have not been more incidents with this runway.

You are probably right, but apart from the special training offered pilots for TGU, there is the reputation of the airport itself. The pilots who fly there are aware of the "special" nature of this landing. In other words, landing at TGU is never considered "routine." In other words everyone knows to take special care and caution when landing there.

I too have flown into this airport, a long time ago. As we were descending initially into TGU, the flight attendant told us all to be ready for a "memorable" landing if you had never been there before. She was right. But after the first time, one knows what to expect. You know your stomach is going to sink upon that rapid final descent. You know to hold on as the brakes are applied on the runway, ah what fun! I also talked to the pilot afterward and he told about the "special case" nature of this airport, which has already been discussed at length.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 51):
Furthermore, TGU ops are being moved to the Soto Cano AB, MHSC which has still a mountainous approach but much easier than TGU and has VOR approaches to both RWYs 17/35 as well as RNAV/GPS apps to both RWYs.

I was wondering about this. The news said that "Big jets" (whatever the hell that exactly means) are moving there. So there will be no more international commerical ops at TGU? Are there facilities of any sort at this alternate airport?

Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 83):
Where are the flight attendants? Are they okay? I could not see any of them participating in the evacuation process. There was even a passenger trying to exit the aircraft where the fuselage was broken.

I reviewed the NBC news clip several times last night. I was fairly certain I saw a male flight attendant assisting at the rear of the aircraft. But there were people all around him, hauling their luggage though, so it was not obvious to make out at first glance.

I was wondering, how come there was no fire? That is truly amazing, a miracle! I have always thought that fires usually breakout in accidents like this. Unless of course the aircraft crashes due to running out of fuel.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Aacun
Posted 2008-06-01 13:23:31 and read 30130 times.

AA's flight to Tegus is cancelled....... there is an extra section running today and tommorrow to SAP on 757 to take the pax to Honduras that were originally scheduled to go on AA953.... But I guess this extra section is added on a day to day operation............ And as far as I know, in 2 months the Soto Cano Air Force Base 60 miles from Tegucigalpa will be handling commercial jet service into TGU...........

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-01 13:46:13 and read 30054 times.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 115):
There are redundant brakes, redundant hydraulics, redundant command systems, even redundant pilots. Anything can happen but just plain brake failure isn't very likely.

And today, we got an A320 blocking the runway at WIMM, hyd fail, gravity extension, and stuck brakes...
With all the redundancy, total failures of a system can still happen (and it seems to be a repeated pattern on that particular aircraft).

Anyways, back to TACA390...

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 181):
Sure, here's the rest of that particular exchange...

TA390: ROGER. AFFIRM REQUEST CIRCULAR ZERO TWO BECAUSE CIRCULAR FOR TWENTY IS NOT POSSIBLE AT PRESENT.

TGU TOWER: THREE NINER ZERO. PER REQUEST CONTINUE APPROACH RUNWAY ZERO TWO. NOTIFY ON BASE. WIND ONE NINER ZERO. ONE ZERO KNOTS.

TA390: WILL NOTIFY BASE. TACA THREE NINER ZERO. THANK YOU.

I wonder, if they did do the initial approach for 20, and went around, I would assume they would come in for VORDME 20 again as if I am informed correctly, it is the only one with an instrument approach (albeit also a circle-to-land). If they were coming in on VORDME 20, and they said "20 not possible", at what stage did they see 02 and not 20 with the reason of "clouds are very low" ?

Pure speculation, but I am now guessing they were deviating from the prescribed path for the VORDME approach in the hope of becoming visual with 02 and then request the change, instead of continuing with the published approach. I do hope I'm wrong.

On another note, are there any risks associated with going down the sloping terrain on that short final with a tailwind? Again, I am speculating that the short finals of 02 with a 10kt tailwind is filled with hazards... the wind would be blowing down the slope, and that the vertical speed would be higher than normal. This could lead to two things:
1. Misjudging the flare, causing excessive float on an already higher than normal groundspeed. This could be catastrophic on a very wet and short runway.
2. Barely any flare and a hard landing.

Now seeing #2, makes me think that this accident would have more similarities to the IB A346 @ UIO rather than TAM 320 @CGH or AF 343 @ YYZ.

Are there any details as to speedbrake and reverser deployment?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-01 14:09:35 and read 29969 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 198):
and stuck brakes

Brakes stuck on or stuck off?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-06-01 15:05:43 and read 29892 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 194):
I watched in the news yesterday that they want to apparently ban large aircraft from TGU and send them to a former US airbase, no idea if they mean SAP or a different airport. Anyone know what's up with that?

It rather means Coronel Enrique Soto Cano AB in Comayagua. IATA's code: MHSC. Length of runway: 8008 feet long.
I checked Google Earth and it's located roughly 60 kilometers from TGU and following strictly a straight line.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-06-01 15:17:06 and read 29988 times.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 200):
It rather means Coronel Enrique Soto Cano AB in Comayagua. IATA's code: MHSC.

That is the ICAO code. IATA codes have 3 letters and if it's an air force base with no commercial operations it may not currently have an IATA code.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-06-01 16:27:25 and read 29842 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 201):
That is the ICAO code. IATA codes have 3 letters and if it's an air force base with no commercial operations it may not currently have an IATA code.

I stand corrected.
The attached source states that ENQ corresponds to such airport.
ICAO: MHSC
IATA: ENQ
http://www.the-airport-guide.com/airport.php?airports_id=6515

Regards

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-01 21:21:49 and read 29441 times.

A bit more hard information here.

Apparently that guy didn't say it was brake failure for certain, only that it was being 'presumed.' However, several witnesses have now stated that the aircraft touched down in the landing zone.

"The deputy director of Aeronáutica Civil de Honduras, Boris Ferrera, said: "We believe, it could have been a mechanical failure. It is currently presumed, that it was a brakes failure."

"According to aviation professionals witnessing the landing at the Toncontin airport the airplane touched down within the landing zone - opposite to other reports, that the airplane may have landed long.

"The airplane had already attempted at least another approach but aborted the landing. Passengers reported, that the captain told them, that they couldn't land because of weather being overcast, and they flew several "laps" until they touched down. They then felt a sudden shock and thud - and then walked off the airplane. Many passengers were carrying off their handbaggage."


FDR and CVR recovered.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4077cedf/0013

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-02 00:51:34 and read 29117 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 203):
Apparently that guy didn't say it was brake failure for certain, only that it was being 'presumed.' However, several witnesses have now stated that the aircraft touched down in the landing zone.

Perhaps the airspeed was still too fast at touchdown, and with the rain.....hmm...All speculation, will see what transpires with the reports and any preliminary information from investigators.
One question though...Wouls an abnormally high amount of rubber in the touchdown area, have any bearing on the handling qualities on a wet runway or dry for that matter?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Zeke
Posted 2008-06-02 01:22:00 and read 29079 times.



Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 204):
Woulds an abnormally high amount of rubber in the touchdown area, have any bearing on the handling qualities on a wet runway or dry for that matter?

Rubber deposits and oil skim from jet exhaust and wet weather makes it like ice, you have zero traction. Had this problem at the old BKK for years, it contributed to the QF overrun.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-02 01:26:57 and read 29039 times.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 205):
Rubber deposits and oil skim from jet exhaust and wet weather makes it like ice, you have zero traction. Had this problem at the old BKK for years, it contributed to the QF overrun.

Interesting..Thanks for answering that..I know YVR shedules runway shutdowns for this purpose(as with most airport, I hope)..Does anyone know how TGUs runway conditions are as far as the rubber deposits ans such go. I imagine most pilots prefer to plant the landing at TGU.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-02 01:50:05 and read 29021 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 203):
According to aviation professionals witnessing the landing at the Toncontin airport the airplane touched down within the landing zone.

Well, at least three other individuals (two of whom were on board the aircraft) have attested to the contrary...

1) Agence France-Presse quoted passenger and former Honduran Minister of Industry and Commerce Mr. Norman Garcia as saying: "On the second attempt, I noticed the airplane touched down right in front of the passenger terminal, a sign that he had already flown too far along the runway."

2) The Associated Press quoted Toncontin airport manager Carlos Ramos as saying: "The plane circled the city twice and it ran out of runway because it landed more than halfway down the length of the strip. It didn't touch down where they normally do, at the start of the runway."

3) San Jose newspaper Al Dia quoted passenger Mr. Guillermo Velazquez, an employee with the Costa Rican Chamber of Industry, as saying the aircraft had "landed too far down the runway, which is too short, and couldn't stop."

I wonder who exactly are these so-called "aviation professionals" now claiming to have witnessed the whole thing, and whose payroll are they on.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: DeC
Posted 2008-06-02 04:38:45 and read 28903 times.

WARNING: MATURE CONTENT.





Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-06-02 05:04:33 and read 28706 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 207):
I wonder who exactly are these so-called "aviation professionals" now claiming to have witnessed the whole thing, and whose payroll are they on.

Well, you can discount the two passenger statements. Those are almost always 100% wrong,

Also if the plane touched down gently and skidded on a slick surface, they probably would not have known the aircraft was on the ground until the tires started to grip the runway.

The airport manager is a better witness.

Normally when "aviation professionals" is used, it means other pilots, airport crash crew and tower personnel - people who are very familiar with the airport landing zone.

However, in general a long landing is a most likely scenario - but we will have to wait for the investigation results to know for sure.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-02 06:20:33 and read 28619 times.

English translation of ATC communications here:-

http://avherald.com/h?article=4077cedf/0016

Confirms that Runway 02 was requested because cloud was too low on the approach to Runway 20. Crew was warned of ten-knot tailwind and wet runway. 'Runway in sight' reported several times, no mention of 'fog.'

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-02 09:25:00 and read 28196 times.

Let's deal with facts that have a nasty tendency to be hard :


  • Estimated weight at landing
    OEW ; 42,200 kg
    135 Passengers : 13,000 kg
    FOB 6,050 kg (with the reported 2000 US gallons on board, at d = .78)
    Total 61,250 kg

  • In-Flight performance tables,
    Considering an airport elevation of 3,300 ft and a wet runway. And a landing weight of 60 tons for demonstration sake and the notoriously smaller people in South America.
    Base line : Landing runway length required : 1640 m
    to which the following corrections apply :
    Altitude : 3% per 1000 ft ---> 10%
    Tailwind : 21%
    Operating reversers : - 8%
    Vapp = Vls : - 3%

    Total correction : 20% ---> 328 m

    So the *required runway length* for these conditions is 1640 328 = 1,968 m

  • Touch-down speed
    Still from the tables and at LW = 60,000 kg...---> 130 kt which translates into a 138 kt TAS or 252 km/hr a ten knot tailwind makes it a groundspeed of 270 km/h.

  • Approach conditions :
    Weather conditions : Ceiling (broken) reported at 2,000 ft over the field, few clouds as low as 6 to 800 ft.
    Visibility is 2,000 m, which is regarded as poor.
    Wind is 190° at ten knots, straight down runway 02.
    The *circling* approach on 02 consists on a descent on the Runway 19 VOR approach, gear and flaps down (config 2 or full depending on airline SOP) down to 6,000 ft, then then open some 45° right in order to join the visual circuit for RWY 02 west of the airport.
    The least we could say is that the *circling* (equivalent Spanish is "circular" ) conditions at that moment were marginal, both in terms of visibility and ceiling.

  • Approach visual geometry from the cockpit :
    Another look at the videos of landings taken from the cockpit you find elsewhere on the net will give you a pretty good idea of a tunnel vision in low visibility . One thing is doing this approach in CAVOK conditions when a general vista of the relief and the landscape is given to you, another is just being able - and concentrating on - to see just about 20 seconds worth of flight in front of you. The notion of horizontal and vertical become rather academic and even more so when your final path follows a downward slope toward the runway. The tendency to be high is fierce.

  • Some picture interpretation
    The speed at which the airplane came to the road and the embankment, especially considering that it had first to drop some 20 m down that cliff at the end of the runway shouldn't have been very high. The TAM 320 was completely destroyed at an estimated ground speed of 90 kt.
    The port smoking brakes seem to bear the indications of some wheel braking (did it start the fire we see in the first video ? )

  • Some aspects of FH
    That crew was very aware of the conditions bvut there is a remark, brought to us by Viaggiare : the initial decision to try for Runway 02 If the wind was less than 10 kt is reasonable. Some twenty minutes later, a 10 kt tailwind becomes acceptable but they were at that time beginning to pile the odds against them. My question is " Why ?". On the ATC tape, the pilot sounded very sure and sharp.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-06-02 09:31:22 and read 28130 times.



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 211):
Must be kinda hard to stop with one throttle in the climb position.

Okay - but that is a 10 month old article about a different crash.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-02 12:35:57 and read 27815 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 209):
Well, you can discount the two passenger statements. Those are almost always 100% wrong

In spite of the fact that these were made by frequent business travelers who have probably landed there countless times, while ocassionally looking out the window? They could've in fact been able to discern there was something odd this particular time.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 203):
"The deputy director of Aeronáutica Civil de Honduras, Boris Ferrera, said: "We believe, it could have been a mechanical failure. It is currently presumed, that it was a brakes failure."

This coming from the same guy who was jumping to conclusions as firefighters were pouring foam onto the fuselage? Ha! The man is losing credibility by the day.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
The article quotes Boris Ferrera, the Sub-Director of Civil Aeronautics for Honduras as saying that the airbus's braking system failed.

All I will say is beware of these banana republic regulatory and/or fact-finding government agencies. This is no NTSB.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 211):
The notion of horizontal and vertical become rather academic and even more so when your final path follows a downward slope toward the runway. The tendency to be high is fierce.

Very instructive post. Thank you.

However, it is the brake failure proposition that is probably most convenient from the airline's standpoint, as it pretty much establishes the absence of negligence. Which is valuable in terms of damage-control public relations, and in discouraging most lawsuits.

So I would expect there to be no shortage of proxies assisting in promoting that hypothesis. There's also plenty of leverage with all of the fragile relevant government institutions -btw not just in Honduras but throughout Central America- which can be brought to bear at any time during the process.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AR385
Posted 2008-06-02 13:33:36 and read 27723 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 207):
I wonder who exactly are these so-called "aviation professionals" now claiming to have witnessed the whole thing, and whose payroll are they on.

I read somewhere that a passenger became concerned when he could see the airport terminal through his window and the plane was still floating down the runway at that point. If you see the charts provided earlier, you will see that the airport terminal is off center and closer to the end of the south facing runway. Couldn't this have been a clue for the pilots to go around?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: FrmrCAPCADET
Posted 2008-06-02 15:50:22 and read 27501 times.

Actually eye witness information is always useful. Particularly if the person does not conflate what they saw, heard, felt with subsequent conversations and news reports. An expert investigator does not mind the errors and inconsistencies it their testimony. In situations like this it is useful to quickly itemize the things you see, hear, feel. Look at your watch etc. But don't reset your watch until AFTER you give your testimony. And don't worry if how you remember things does not quite make sense. An investigator is the best person to sort these things out. I had remembered some details about the 1948 (oops, 49) Seattle area earthquake, which I thought were mistaken. I mentioned it 55 years later at the UW Seismology Lab where my son was a research assistant. One of the guys laughed and said my memory was right, my thinking it wrong was the error.

[Edited 2008-06-02 16:01:24]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Nomadd22
Posted 2008-06-02 17:07:54 and read 27399 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 191):
It is a challenging approach and landing - but with familiarization training - MHTG is a safe airport for anyone with the skill levels of a top level commercial pilot.

Exactly how do you make sure you're flying with a "top level" pilot every time. For an airport to be safe it has to be safe for the least competent pilots, not just the great ones.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-02 18:08:38 and read 27283 times.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 213):
All I will say is beware of these banana republic regulatory and/or fact-finding government agencies. This is no NTSB.

Please read the story I posted above, Viaggiare:-

"The NTSB under lead of NTSB Senior investigator Robert Benzon is joining the investigation under the lead of El Salvador, who have been delegated to investigate the accident by the government of Honduras. The French BEA also joins the investigation team."

Generally, we currently know so little about the accident that it's not very profitable even to start speculating on what the cause (or, more probably, 'causes') might have been. We don't know where the aircraft landed, what configuration it was in, what the landing speed was, whether the brakes, spoilers, and reverse thrust worked normally; and a whole lot of other things.

On the other hand, since the FO survived (although badly injured), and all the recorders seem to have been recovered intact, there is a very good chance that we'll eventually learn all there is to know about the circumstances of this crash. And any 'fix' would have to be an international one, and is therefore unlikely.

For my part I'll just go on passing on any news items I find, for everyone's information; and not start interpreting them until we have more facts.

[Edited 2008-06-02 18:12:07]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Snaiks
Posted 2008-06-02 20:18:58 and read 27105 times.



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 216):
Exactly how do you make sure you're flying with a "top level" pilot every time. For an airport to be safe it has to be safe for the least competent pilots, not just the great ones.

Well actually how do we know this in any flight, we trust the Air Carrier. When we buy plane tickets we dont only check prices and times but also waht airline is taking me.
in the other hand
in the past, CM had a special group of pilots assigned to that airport, IIRC they were called 'Top Gun Tin"
I think they still exist

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-02 21:24:09 and read 27055 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 217):
"The NTSB under lead of NTSB Senior investigator Robert Benzon is joining the investigation under the lead of El Salvador, who have been delegated to investigate the accident by the government of Honduras. The French BEA also joins the investigation team."

So now the Salvadoran government is in charge? Well, gentlemen, suffice it to say that TACA is one in a handful of so-called untouchable interests in El Salvador. Good thing those NTSB and BEA boys are on board, though. That investigative panel will need all the legitimacy it can muster.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2008-06-03 07:52:58 and read 26588 times.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 95):
La Paz and Cali are also getting special approaching procedures due to unusual high terrains placed in the surroundings.

Why CLO?? Mountains around the airfield are not THAT close, actually, its in the middle of a valley.

JAAH

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-06-03 18:13:41 and read 25985 times.

here is a short video of the plane landing... it seems is going a bit fast... it also seems like it is just starting to touchdown where the terminal is... I can't tell much from the clip since it's so short...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIolQOhB0xE

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-03 19:10:48 and read 25882 times.

Good 'find,' Ludavid777. But tantalising that it's so short........

Certainly going very fast, and throwing up spray. My impression is that the spray is already evident as it enters the shot?

Plenty of eyewitnesses standing around the ramps.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-06-03 19:46:49 and read 25831 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 222):
it seems is going a bit fast.

The speed is misleading. The camara is moving in oposite direction of the plane - so it will always look faster than reality

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-06-03 20:17:02 and read 25781 times.

Doing the clip by stop action - the plane appears solidly on the ground when it comes into view - but that is also a little over 3,000 feet past the displaced threshold and a little over 3,000 feet from where it went off the runway.

Yes, plenty of ramp rats saw it as they prepared to service the aircraft's arrival.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-03 20:42:28 and read 25743 times.

Agree the camera panning doesn't help. Doing the 'stop' thing I can confirm that the nosewheel is solidly down and throwing spray too. Anyone know enough about A320s to say whether spoilers/reverse thrust are deployed?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-04 00:00:37 and read 25724 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 226):
Agree the camera panning doesn't help. Doing the 'stop' thing I can confirm that the nosewheel is solidly down and throwing spray too. Anyone know enough about A320s to say whether spoilers/reverse thrust are deployed?

I'm not so sure that the nose gear is actually on the ground there does seem to be some slight upwards pitch. The mains are definitely down, but he is going remarkably fast. That camera isn't panning that fast. Can't tell about the spoilers and reverse thrust. It looks like there may be some reverser deployment as zooms past but it is so hard to tell from the low resolution recording/camera. It does appear that the ground crew were watching it go by, so they (along with the tower) would have the best idea how far down he went before touchdown, aside from the CVR FDR and pilots. My uneducated speculation would be that the ground crew are spot on on the mid field touchdown, the video seems to be pointing me to that end as well. It seem awfully fast too.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-04 00:22:08 and read 25696 times.

Agree that you can't tell about spoilers etc., TwinOtter4Ever.

However, if you look at the last picture in Post 56 above (taken from astern, starboard side) you can see that only one spoiler panel, the one furthest outboard, is deployed. The other four (I gather there are five per wing) are stowed. As far as I can gather, the outboard panel is the in-flight spoiler, the other four are the ground ones; perhaps someone can confirm that?

Of course, with the damage to the hydraulics etc., the other panels may just have 'flopped' - or been knocked down into the stowed position by the impact. But it does raise the possibility that the ground spoilers weren't deployed (or failed to deploy).

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: 5YKQW
Posted 2008-06-04 00:41:51 and read 25687 times.

6 dead reported on CNN mostly in the forward section. Passengers were coming out of the plane carrying their bags which doesn't really help the evacuation process in an emergency. It probably happened so fast that the cabin crew were unable to effect an orderly escape.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-04 00:46:08 and read 25676 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 228):
However, if you look at the last picture in Post 56 above (taken from astern, starboard side) you can see that only one spoiler panel, the one furthest outboard, is deployed. The other four (I gather there are five per wing) are stowed. As far as I can gather, the outboard panel is the in-flight spoiler, the other four are the ground ones; perhaps someone can confirm that?

Of course, with the damage to the hydraulics etc., the other panels may just have 'flopped' - or been knocked down into the stowed position by the impact. But it does raise the possibility that the ground spoilers weren't deployed (or failed to deploy).

Thanks for reminding me of the raised spoiler in the post crash photos. I could totally see the spoilers dropping with a lack of hydraulic pressure. Perhaps this one was kept up by near by flap damage or wing distortion from the crash and departure of the right engine. Leave that to the experts, as you inferred....

Personally I am more leaning to a late touchdown myself seeing that video and considering the airport approach, they unfortunately simply ran out of runway. I does seem like they didn't try a go around though, as you would think there would be far more impact damage in such a case. Very fortunate for the passengers..

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: DeC
Posted 2008-06-04 01:39:07 and read 25687 times.

Titled: TACA 390 RUNWAY FOOTAGE [EXCLUSIVE] / VIDEO PISTA TACA

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-04 12:18:58 and read 25327 times.



Quoting DeC (Reply 230):
Titled: TACA 390 RUNWAY FOOTAGE [EXCLUSIVE] / VIDEO PISTA TACA


Interesting repost of the previous ramp camera video with the jog back and forth. Too bad the quality is worse. Must have been meant for TV news.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pecevanne
Posted 2008-06-04 13:38:25 and read 25229 times.

Spoilers remain deploy even with a lack of hydarulic.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-04 15:34:07 and read 25151 times.



Quoting 5YKQW (Reply 228):
It probably happened so fast that the cabin crew were unable to effect an orderly escape.

Of the nine flight attendants on board the aircraft, four were on duty. Two of them were reportedly still hospitalized (along with the co-pilot) as of the day after the accident.

Passenger evacuation has proven to be a challenge for TACA in the past. Things were pretty chaotic back in 1993 when one of their birds overran the runway upon arrival in GUA. That one we got a glimpse of from the inside...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-06-04 21:04:08 and read 24974 times.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 233):
Passenger evacuation has proven to be a challenge for TACA in the past. Things were pretty chaotic back in 1993 when one of their birds overran the runway upon arrival in GUA. That one we got a glimpse of from the inside...

Not to get technical about the whole thing. I've never worked for TACA or have any ties to them. I'm not defending their flight attendants either, but before stating "Passenger evacuation has proven to be a challenge for TACA in the past." Maybe you should learn a few facts as to how an evacuation works.

First of all there are 2 types of evacuations, an orderly deplanement or an emergency evacuation. Orderly deplanement could've been possible say for the GUA one were the plane was intact, smoke/fire was not visible, but that has to be determined by the captain. They make the call in that case.

Now in the case of TGU fa's are not require to wait for any kind of evacuation command from the captain, since the aircraft was broken, fire could've been a possibility and the cockpit crew was most likely "unable." That's why when you take-off/land FA's have their 30-60 second review to hear for any strange sounds, feel for anything strange, smell anything odd, etc...

That been said by looking at the a/c the 2 front fa's in the TGU Taca flight look like they were probably "unable" or injured to the extent were they were probably physically unable to get up and open the doors. Having worked as a flight attendant on airbus aircraft before, I know the doors when armed activate a pneumatic assist that will shoot the door open with force requiring no effort whatsoever from the person opening the door, this happens once you lift the handle ONLY IF OPENED FROM THE INSIDE, and in turn it deploys the slide.

Looking at the main cabin door it does not look like opening that door was even a possibility at least not from the inside. Hence why it was opened from the outside and the slide never deployed. Now from the back the slides deployed which indicates the doors were opened with no problem.

Also, keep in mind people flying are humans after all. In an emergency everyone reacts differently, out of the 124 passengers some may be in shock and just sit there with no reaction, some may panic and start running, some within their panic may run to grab their bags because that's what their instinct tells them to do.... again everyone reacts differently, you can't expect everyone to act as you think they should...

In both videos I hear the evac commands "desabrochense los cinturones, salgan todos, salten." (Unfasten your seatbelt, get out, jump) So as far as I can tell the flight attendants did their job as they should. As long I see people running out those exits that means someone was doing their job. It seems slow at times, but remember the aircraft was not in it's normal state. The aircraft didn't look like it did before when they first walked in and boarded in SAL, the plane physically looked different inside and outside, some people get disoriented and confused and they may not know where to go, hence the reason you shout commands so that they follow the voice.

So unless you know of a better way to conduct an evacuation and force distressed people at the moment to act as you would like them to, I would refrain from saying such comments... and this is not only to speak for the TACA flight attendants on this flight but all flight attendants out there... every emergency is different, and people will always react differently, and not everyone is as a savvy traveler as you are...

[Edited 2008-06-04 21:09:04]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-04 21:40:01 and read 24938 times.



Quoting Pecevanne (Reply 232):
Spoilers remain deploy even with a lack of hydarulic.

Perhaps they were going to do an RTO. or perhaps they were failures in spoiler activation systems or perhaps the possibility of settings being incorrect as was the case (engine setting, etc) as was the case in Brazil with the disasturous overrun (I believe).

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-04 23:19:16 and read 24876 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 234):
but before stating "Passenger evacuation has proven to be a challenge for TACA in the past." Maybe you should learn a few facts as to how an evacuation works.

The written word lives on exactitude and dies of vagueness. You could have perhaps spared me that unsolicited treatise on aircraft evacuation, provided you had a less ambiguous (open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations) and approximative (not quite exact or correct) understanding of what it was I actually said.

But since you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube now, at least allow me to define the two key words I used...

CHALLENGE = A TEST OF ONE'S ABILITIES OR RESOURCES IN A DEMANDING BUT STIMULATING UNDERTAKING.

CHAOS (CHAOTIC BEING ITS ADJECTIVE FORM) = A CONDITION OR PLACE OF GREAT CONFUSION OR DISORDER.


Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 233):
Passenger evacuation has proven to be a challenge for TACA in the past. Things were pretty chaotic back in 1993 when one of their birds overran the runway upon arrival in GUA.

Assuming you are now able to fully comprehend my original statement, you'd have to be watching a different set of tapes -or helplessly stubborn- not to agree that the evacuation (removal of persons from an endangered area) process turned out to be quite challenging and chaotic in both instances.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Nomadd22
Posted 2008-06-05 04:48:31 and read 24757 times.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...before-fatal-honduras-overrun.html
Their guess is 100kts with 1,000 meters of runway left. They haven't decided if they can see deployed thrust reversers in the video yet.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-06-05 05:03:00 and read 24714 times.

What does the official preliminary report say.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-05 05:19:09 and read 24676 times.



Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 235):
Perhaps they were going to do an RTO.

A go-around, or rejected landing, perhaps? Rejecting a take-off while landing is, pretty much, landing.  Smile

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-05 05:31:09 and read 24689 times.

The more I run that video, the more I'm struck by its eerie resemblance to the Congonhas one........  Sad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6lO-eig_i0

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2008-06-05 10:32:49 and read 24454 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 239):
Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 235):
Perhaps they were going to do an RTO.

A go-around, or rejected landing, perhaps? Rejecting a take-off while landing is, pretty much, landing. Smile

Whoops...Right you are...I really need to get more sleep...  Smile

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 240):
The more I run that video, the more I'm struck by its eerie resemblance to the Congonhas one........ Sad

Thats the the one I was thinking of..though I couldn't remember the airport name at the time...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-05 14:07:34 and read 24313 times.

The video shows the aircraft was already on the ground when it came to view, nose still up and derotating. But, this does not mean the aircraft touched down late. I am concerned that throughout the most part of where the aircraft came into view, the nose is still up.
No reverser is one (and I dun see the reverser spray like in CGH)... no spoilers is nose up or nose down tendency on the 320?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 211):
Some aspects of FH
That crew was very aware of the conditions bvut there is a remark, brought to us by Viaggiare : the initial decision to try for Runway 02 If the wind was less than 10 kt is reasonable. Some twenty minutes later, a 10 kt tailwind becomes acceptable but they were at that time beginning to pile the odds against them. My question is " Why ?". On the ATC tape, the pilot sounded very sure and sharp.

Get-there-itis?
This added with a 10kt tailwind also in a downward direction (due to downward slope and aircraft very near those slopes normally) on the last portion of the approach probably made the aircraft having a "less ideal" situation... Nose high, wet runway = less depth perception, tailwind... hard landing? LGCIUs went bust?

Quoting Pecevanne (Reply 232):
Spoilers remain deploy even with a lack of hydarulic.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 240):
The more I run that video, the more I'm struck by its eerie resemblance to the Congonhas one........ Sad

I'd say it resembles the IB 346 at UIO at the moment... No spoilers? No reverse? No Brakes? Difficult short final segment in tailwind with a hill behind the aircraft?

I see no reverser spray like the CGH crash, to me, the more I look at it, the more I'm struck by its eerie resemblance to the Quito one... Sad.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-05 15:47:21 and read 24246 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 242):
The video shows the aircraft was already on the ground when it came to view, nose still up and derotating. But, this does not mean the aircraft touched down late. I am concerned that throughout the most part of where the aircraft came into view, the nose is still up.

Very difficult to see either way, Mandala499. I personally see the reverser open ( there is a definite black line across the engine cowling but I do not trust the quality of the picture.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 242):
no spoilers is nose up or nose down tendency on the 320?

Spoilers deploying will cause a slight nose-up moment.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 242):
I'd say it resembles the IB 346 at UIO at the moment... No spoilers? No reverse? No Brakes?

Flight global reported the estimated speed at 100 kt....We don't know the position of the touch-down point but at least we have two rough estimations :


  • -The touch-down ground speed I estimated at 148 kt. That means that there was some deceleration between that point and the camera estimation of 100 kt... Therefore there was some braking.

  • - After the airplane went over a 20m - 60 ft - drop-off, it then came to rest across a sunken road into a knoll. That final speed - IMO - cannot be over 30 kt (refer to the car crash tests where the vehicle is destroyed at that kind of speed )...Ergo, there was also some deceleration after the camera recorded the pictures and the runway end.


Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 242):
I see no reverser spray like the CGH crash,

That's the point that , to me , is the most puzzling : spray is visible behind the wheels but not from the reversed thrust. If, as I see that the shells are open, there is not a lot of reverse flow making spray, I do not understand why they didn't go for max reverse. ( The theory of an intended go-around goes against the deceleration they achieved ).
The only reason I can think of for not using the reverse is some level of directional control difficulties ( differential aquaplaning with or without autobrakes is one ).

In my previous post, I made a few assumptions on aircraft weight and performance and I bet that my figures are accurate within 2 tons and five knots.
They could have stayed in the runway available had they done absolutely everything right,( in particular refer to the importance of the *operating reverser * at a 8% correction, i.e some 150 m in those conditions).
Otherwise chances and physics were piling against them :

  • -Auto brakes as foot braking is generally recognised as well below the max achievable.
  • -Touch-down on the 1000 ft marker
  • -IAS at Vls
  • -Immediate use of reversers. deployed ground spoilers.


So far on this thread nobody has contradicted my - estimated - figures.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-06 02:40:42 and read 24031 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 240):
The more I run that video, the more I'm struck by its eerie resemblance to the Congonhas one........

I'd have thought a lot of overruns would have the same basic symptoms, i.e. being too fast at a given point on a wet runway and serious damage where there happens to be a large drop beyond the runway.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 243):
So far on this thread nobody has contradicted my - estimated - figures.

OK, your figures are wrong. Is that better? You know what an "expert" I am.  biggrin 

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 05:47:02 and read 23946 times.



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 237):
Their guess is 100kts with 1,000 meters of runway left.

If that assumption is correct, that the airplane was doing 100 knots 1000 meters off the runway end, it would suggest a normal landing at a rather high deceleration rate between 2.4 and 4.5 meters/second/second (4.8 to 9 knots/second) suggesting, that the airplane would have stopped between 450 and 700 meters before the runway end. Even at minimum deceleration provided by lowest autobrakes setting the airplane would have stopped before the runway end from that point!

I strongly disagree with that assessment therefore, the perspective, camera position, lens system etc. introducing so many unknowns in that equation, that it can not be any more than the result of a computation based on many many assumptions.

I'd rather wait for the data off the FDR ...

See more detailed explanations and considerations at

http://avherald.com/h?article=4077cedf/0022

Servus, Simon

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-06-06 07:44:05 and read 23869 times.

Unlike the Brazil crash - this aircraft went off the end of the runway relatively slowly - non highway car crash speeds. That's been obvious from the initial pictures with the relatively light damage to the aircraft.

There was substantial braking action. The crew probably did not realize they were going off the runway until the last couple hundred meters.

It would have been way to late to try to go around - time to just hang on and pray.

While some of you may disagree with the phrase "relatively light damage" - it is for an aircraft crash. When the plane is in one piece and passengers are able to get up from their seats unassisted and go out through regular exits - that's light damage.

A 50 kt or higher impact probably would have ripped most pax seats from the floor and thrown people and seats into large piles near the bulkheads and various points in the plane. The fuselage would have broken into a few separate pieces.

But I must say that these folks were extremely lucky - that the spilled fuel did not catch fire.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 243):
So far on this thread nobody has contradicted my - estimated - figures.

Great data - thanks.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-06 08:52:41 and read 23813 times.



Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 245):
I strongly disagree with that assessment therefore, the perspective, camera position, lens system etc. introducing so many unknowns in that equation, that it can not be any more than the result of a computation based on many many assumptions.

There are not that many assumptions :


  • Touch-down speed
  • Touch-down position relative to the remaining length
  • Continuous deceleration

Nothing more.

With some knowledge of the 320 characteristics, I say again that the weight information given to us about number of occupants and fuel is the minimum weight one can arrive at.
Piloting techniques dictate a speed corresponding to the weight and 148 kt is also a minimum.
I just qualified the *deceleration* as existing and though I am perfectly capable of making the calculations, refrained to do so. Just add another ten knots to the Flight global estimation and that aircraft goes over the runway and the cliff...

What I am saying is that the approach was made in marginal conditions, both in terms of weather - drizzle, visibility - and performance - runway length, difficult final, aircraft integrity...
In a pilot's life, numbers tend to be respectable...or else !

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 09:23:27 and read 23783 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 247):
Touch-down speed
Touch-down position relative to the remaining length
Continuous deceleration

Pihero,

we have reservations about the 100 knots 650 meters down the runway, that Flight Global have computed from the video of the surveillance camera. If the airplane had 100 knots at that point, it would have stopped before the end of the runway even at minimum autobrakes - considering that it reduced speed from ~150 to 100 knots in less than 650 meters, it would have stopped significantly before that actually, around about 450-700 meters before the end of the runway.

I believe due to multiple arguments (and a possible explanation how Flight Global may have arrived on those 100 knots), that the 100 knots at that point are just a value out of the blue by gross misinterpretation of the video (without applying methodes out of photogrammetry) and have nothing to do with reality. If landing speed was decisive, the airplane would have been decisively faster at that point ...

I have not responded to any of your figures nor have I quoted you! But I shall say, that I wait for the data off the FDR and the findings of the responsible air accident investigators to see, what speeds were indeed involved at landing, where the touch down occured and what braking action did prevail indeed.

Servus, Simon
http://avherald.com

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-06 09:47:16 and read 23725 times.



Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 248):
If the airplane had 100 knots at that point, it would have stopped before the end of the runway even at minimum autobrakes

Assuming good traction all the way?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Nomadd22
Posted 2008-06-06 10:02:24 and read 23702 times.

What's the difficulty with getting the speed from the video? You should be able to figure the frame rate from the clock, check it against camera specs and measure how far the plane travelled between frames.
It wouldn't be the first time I missed something, but it doesn't seem that complicated if you can read the time stamp while it increments.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 10:02:26 and read 23760 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 249):
Assuming good traction all the way?

Read my article  Wink Assuming a deceleration rate of 1.5 meters/second/second (3 knots/second), which would be easily achievable even on a wet non grooved runway, and is about the target of minimum autobraking.

But, in this case the airplane would have shown and performed at a much, much higher deceleration already on that very same runway, namely around about 2.4 to 4.5 meters/second/second (5 to 9 knots/second) depending on where touch down occured.

Servus, Simon
http://avherald.com

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 10:17:32 and read 23746 times.



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 250):
What's the difficulty with getting the speed from the video?

Pure Pythagoras and photogrammetry.

Let's make this clear in an assumed scenario: the camera looks in a right angle to the runway, is fixed and the lens system makes sure, that all angles in the pictures are depicted correct from corner to corner. The camera looks from 30 degrees right to 30 degrees left, the camera is say 150 meters off the runway.

As the airplane comes into the view at the right hand corner of the picture, it is therefore at a distance to the camera of 150/cos(30 degrees)=173 meters, and it has to travel a distance of 150*sin(30 degrees)=75 meters to reach the center of the picture. Because of the larger distance the airplane appears smaller than it would be in the center due to the perspective, and because of the angle the distance of 37 meters in reality appears on the picture as 37*sin(30 degrees)=18.5 meters. The same applies for the left hand corner of the picture. The total distance on the runway centerline from right to left corner would be 150 meters or 8.1 times the airplane length measured at the corner or roughly 4 times the airplane length measured in the center of the picture.

Now, let's put the camera at an angle to the runway, say 30 degrees to the left. The center line of the runway at the middle of the picture would now be 173 meters away (the camera still 150 meters off the runway in the same position, just rotated). The airplane appears in the picture at its closest position to the camera, 150 meters distance and departs the picture at an angle of 60 degrees (as we have another right angle in the triangle, this time not in the center but at the right hand corner of the picture, we can use Pythagoras without any doubt), the airplane travels therefore 86.5 (173*sin(30)) meters until it hits the center of the picture. The distance of the runway center line at the left hand corner of the picture would appear at 300 meters (150/cos(60)), the total distance travelled from right to left hand corner of the picture would therefore be 260 meters (compare 86.5 meters from right corner to center point!). You can not apply any linear measurement in this view at all.

Now, we aren't even able to determine the angles between the camera and the runway centerline with any degree of certainty in this scenario. Another important factor in computing the video back is also missing, the data about the lens system. So how would it be possible to compute any distance travelled from this video? You need to use a lot of assumptions to get to any value!

There is a reason why photogrammetry is a science!

If speed was decisive in this incident (as Flight Global implied in their article), it was certainly higher than 100 knots at that point 650 meters past the threshold!

Servus, Simon
http://avherald.com

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-06 10:22:36 and read 23728 times.



Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 251):
Read my article  wink  Assuming a deceleration rate of 1.5 meters/second/second (3 knots/second), which would be easily achievable even on a wet non grooved runway, and is about the target of minimum autobraking.

I'm not sure that's necessary. If the runway was wetter than you are assuming, there could have been hydroplaning, in which case minimum autobraking could have been absent. I'm not saying there was hydroplaning, just that you also seem to be making some assumptions.

Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 251):
But, in this case the airplane would have shown and performed at a much, much higher deceleration already on that very same runway, namely around about 2.4 to 4.5 meters/second/second (5 to 9 knots/second) depending on where touch down occured.

Assuming good traction, etc.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 11:36:45 and read 23656 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 253):
I'm not sure that's necessary. If the runway was wetter than you are assuming, there could have been hydroplaning, in which case minimum autobraking could have been absent. I'm not saying there was hydroplaning, just that you also seem to be making some assumptions

David,

Yes, I do make some assumptions and make clear, that I do make assumptions. I did not state, that the airplane was seen 4 seconds and travelling at 100 knots at that point, which in the meantime is proven wrong. The airplane was at a minimum speed of 130 knots at that point, most likely even higher than that due to angular distortion of the rollout path.

There is a time stamp of the surveillance camera overlaid by the TV station that apparently broadcast that video with the sentence "Accidente TACA 390 Toncontin". The time stamps are hard to decipher, but it is clear, that the airplane was not visible at the frame at second 19.421, was fully visible at 20.028, was last visible on 22.031 and was disappeared at 22.431, so visible for less than 3 seconds (unless I am misreading the time stamps).

With 130 knots at that point an overrun scenario is much more likely, with a deceleration of 1.5 meters/s/s requiring 1500 meters stopping distance (with a speed of 75 knots at the runway end), not to mention if the speed was even higher than that. A minimum deceleration rate of 2.2 meters/s/s (~4.4 knots/s) would have been necessary to stop at or before the end of the runway.

Using Pythagoras and methodes of photogrammetry the speed of the airplane would be established with accuracy and I am sure the investigators will use those possibilities.

100 or 130+ knots is a lot of difference, possibly the difference between an uneventful landing and a crash.

Quoting David L (Reply 253):
Assuming good traction, etc

Assuming a braking action that is usually available on a wet ungrooved runways, but it is an assumption indeed, and I made that very much clear.

Servus, Simon

[Edited 2008-06-06 11:39:22]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-06 12:45:05 and read 23583 times.

All I'm taking issue with is this...

Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 251):
in this case the airplane would have shown and performed at a much, much higher deceleration already on that very same runway

Perhaps "could have been expected to show" or "would have shown... had there been good braking action" would have been more appropriate. It might be interpreted that you were saying that, at 100 kts, it could not have overrun the way it did.

That's all I'm saying.  Smile

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-06 13:26:56 and read 23548 times.

OK, I explored what both Pihero and Simon gave...
From the QRH, A320 (CFM though)
I made some basic calculations
TORA = 6109ft / 1862m
LDA = 5410ft / 1649m
LRA = 1349m

For that runway, and using UNFACTORED distances...
the required decel would be 2.15m/s/s

But, Pihero estimate that the aircrft left at 30kts, this gives a = -1.96m/s/s
If it leaves the runway at 30kts (after going over a 70m paved overrun)... how much runway did it actually need?
It comes out to a landing roll requirement of 1418m, or a landing distance requirement of 1718m.

I began having problems with Pihero's assumptions a little bit... something just doesn't add up to the whole thing... But I gotta fix some factors... I decided to stick to the 62Tons for the moment.

Actual distances (unfactored), Conf Full, noautobrakes.

62 tons ISA SL NOTAIL TAIL TailRev
Dry 880 967 1143 1117
Wet 1140 1290 1587 1518
0.25 1575 1783 2240 2051
0.5 1500 1649 2039 1889
(ISA SL being raw, the rest is adjusted with altitude)

A 1/4inch water coverage would have yielded a more disastrous result... So, for the moment I'm discounting that, just gonna look at Wet...
One interesting bit is that they were looking for "5kt tailwind and we're OK"... that got me thinking... with the 5kt tailwind, it would give an runway requirement of 1439m unfactored... should be a problem, and neither would the 10kt tail wind (1587m). And if they slapped on the reversers, they should have still made it within the runway...

Let's go to the bus procs...

Quote:
Deceleration Monitoring
The PNF monitors and calls:
- Spoiler deployment (ECAM WHEEL page).
- Reverse thrust operation(E/WD).
- Autobrake operation (green DECEL light on AUTO/BRK panel).

He/she should advise the PF of any non-normal indications.

And...

Quote:
From 1.32.30...
"The green DECEL light comes on when the actual deceleration is 80% of the selected rate

Note: On slippery runway, the predetermined deceleration may not be reached due to antiskid operation. In this case DECEL light will not illuminate. This does not mean that autobrake is not working."

However, a friend recently came back from Toulouse while converting to the Bus... he said...
"The Decel light is the first clue, but it is "indoctrinated" by my instructors at Airbus Training Center that the Decel call should be based on a SENSE OF DECELERATION. Even if the DECEL light goes on but you do not sense the decel, then call out Manual Braking."

So, why couldn't they stop? If the runway was wet and slippery, Why didn't we see the reversers in full force?

Now I can go on to think about aquaplaning, but then it would be impossible to determine the numbers... but just looking at 1/4 inch water landing figures made me think it was way too easy to just go for that.

Then one thing strikes me... SLOPE GUIDANCE... The old charts someone put... showed...
Runway 20, PAPI 5degs (yikes), and 02 PAPI 5.3degs (for Cat A & B aircraft only... 320 is Cat C correct?).

Given the terrain on short finals 02, and the quote from Pihero:

Quote:
# Approach visual geometry from the cockpit :
Another look at the videos of landings taken from the cockpit you find elsewhere on the net will give you a pretty good idea of a tunnel vision in low visibility . One thing is doing this approach in CAVOK conditions when a general vista of the relief and the landscape is given to you, another is just being able - and concentrating on - to see just about 20 seconds worth of flight in front of you. The notion of horizontal and vertical become rather academic and even more so when your final path follows a downward slope toward the runway. The tendency to be high is fierce.

Well,then I propose, that the aircraft is likely to have come in slightly faster and landed faster than the Vls...
Tunnel vision at low height, compounded by a downward tailwind following the slopes not far below the aircraft, likely leading to a higher nose attitude if on profile (leading to poor flare and decel to vls), or, a steeper approach.

Then I looked at what if they came in just 5kts too fast...

the result would be...
+5kt ISA SL NOTAIL TAIL TailRev
Dry 950 1044 1235 1206
Wet 1231 1394 1714 1640
0.25 1701 1926 2419 2215
0.5 1620 1780 2202 2040

We never saw the reversers go on full blast in the video... so I'm using the no rev number... 1714m LDR (where the 30kt overrun yielded an LDR of 1778m).

But if at some stage they threw open the reversers full blast... the aircraft's exit should have been slower... So I expanded a little...

10kt too fast...
+10kt ISA SL NOTAIL TAIL TailRev
Dry 1021 1122 1326 1295
Wet 1322 1497 1841 1761
0.25 1827 2068 2598 2379
0.5 1740 1912 2365 2191

Based on the above assumptions, and whatever there is available at the moment, to me, it seems, unless there are malfunctions, the most likely scenario was that the aircraft came in just a bit too fast due to conditions unique to the airport, and when wet with tailwind at that airport... no need for aquaplaning for the overrun then!

But I guess the FDR will reveal what happened... I'm just guessing...  Smile

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 13:37:38 and read 23534 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 255):
Perhaps "could have been expected to show" or "would have shown... had there been good braking action" would have been more appropriate. It might be interpreted that you were saying that, at 100 kts, it could not have overrun the way it did. That's all I'm saying

David,

Alright, fair comment.

Servus, Simon

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 14:16:43 and read 23497 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 256):
A 1/4inch water coverage would have yielded a more disastrous result... So, for the moment I'm discounting that, just gonna look at Wet...

Mandala,

you may actually assume not even wet, but "damp" as runway condition. That word got cleared today as well in the Spanish transcript and my translation (I added that as a commentary to the translation to stick with well known Aviation English in the translation). Perhaps that helps your computations?

Conditions described were light drizzle at the time of the approach (though I take this with a grain of salt and would not rely on it).

Servus, Simon

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-06 17:30:53 and read 23440 times.



Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 258):
Conditions described were light drizzle at the time of the approach (though I take this with a grain of salt and would not rely on it).

Conditions not described, Simon, but REPORTED on all the 1400, 1500 and 1600 Z (the latest with info on the aircraft mishap :
METAR is the international standard code format for hourly surface weather observations which is analogous to the SA coding currently used in the US. The acronym roughly translates from French as Aviation Routine Weather Report.

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 47):
MHTG 301500Z 19004KT 2000S -DZ FEW008 BKN020 OCV080 21/19 Q1016 2KM S SW WSW D/C 8KM PCPN CL HZ

The drizzle is reported as DZL and confirmed on the observations as PCPN = precipitation.

Aircrews cannot afford to take that sort of information *with a grain of salt*. We believe it and plan accordingly.

Mandala, as always a fair study of that landing characteristics. I'll take it as the most likely scenario we can come up with until they release the DFDR read-outs.

Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 258):
you may actually assume not even wet, but "damp" as runway condition

Go back to the surveillance cam and see that every surface is shining.
Your *damp* vs *wet* discussion comes from the tower ATCO reporting the runway as "humeda" instead of "mojada", but it does not alter the fact that between 1400 and 1600Z, there was a continuous drizzle over the airport and a runway known for limited drainage.

That you disagree with the Flightglobal estimation of 100 kt is one thing I could agree with but here you have two sides of an explanation of the events : One from just the flight manuals which show clearly that the chances of running out of runway were present, the second with a set of clearly defined decel values put against performance criteria and piloting requirements.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-06 19:37:27 and read 23373 times.

Wet should be fine given the conditions in the video.
If we go to 1/4 inches if standing water, then it's a totally different ball game.
Now we're guesstimating as to the exit velocity...
But, under 62T 1/4inch standing water (assuming there was significant traction problems, averaging out the effect equivalent to 1/4inch standing water throughout the landing), the exit velocity would be 83 - 90kts... (full revs - no revs range) assuming Vls = Vapp... I don't think that's the case... we'd be seeing a repeat of CGH or similar with that kind of excursion velocity.

Now back to damp... how does one define damp in the QRH? I would disagree with the conditions being anywhere between "dry" and "wet" in terms of aircraft performance numbers, HOWEVER...
If we assume LDR (damp) = Average of LDR (dry) and LDR (wet), then... a 15 - 20kt overspeed from Vls would also yield the same results giving a 30kt excursion.  Smile

But, if I see the runway surface beginning to reflect light due to water or damp patches, it's "wet" by my book.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 259):
Mandala, as always a fair study of that landing characteristics. I'll take it as the most likely scenario we can come up with until they release the DFDR read-outs.

Merci, unfortunately we can't go deeper into the calculations unless they release the dispatch estimated landing weight... and better with a more accurate excursion speed... or details of failures, but yes, until then, this is the best that we can come up with, unfortunately (obviously, I'm not satisfied but am resigned to the situation).

By the way, any numbers for no spoilers no reverse as per UIO case? But for the 320...

Back to this TGU case.
When I look at landing accidents, I tend to look at not just at "what happened during the landing" and "what went wrong in the landing", but also factors that can precipitate in errors leading to the "what happened".

We've heard enough of the aircraft landing accident reduction tool kit... and what companies and crew should do to reduce it, but I fear this is yet another case of:
1. Task saturation due to the heightened stress of the crew leading to a "how do I need to get this aircraft safely at TGU" rather than "can I land here safely at TGU with the current conditions"... the crew ended up cornered into get-there-itis.
Added with:
2. Tunnel vision due to the viz (not a major factor as they had enough visibility for a circle-to-land)... more on this later (gotta look up some stuff)
3. Poor depth perception due to the downward sloping towards the ground, OR
4. Poor depth perception due to higher than normal nose attitude over wet terrain, OR

3&4 can explain the possibility of actual landing speed being 5kts or higher above the required Vls. This, without even covering the wind-elevation gradients which could precipitate in a worse than the above approach situation. (Heck, lack of exposure to steep wind gradients on tailwind led to task saturation once.)

Pihero & AustrianSimon,
Any updates on data, or other inputs that would enable different scenarios would be more than welcomed.  Smile It's these kinds of analysis that, although "outside-the-box" thinking, would make flying safer... regardless of whether it is what actually happened, as it raises better awareness amongst all of us flyers and non-flyers alike on things to watch out for.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-06 20:43:30 and read 23344 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 260):
Any updates on data, or other inputs that would enable different scenarios would be more than welcomed.

The feeling's growing on me that there is now a distinct LACK of data. Given that the authorities have had the recorders for more than a week, that the co-pilot survived, and that there were numerous eye-witnesses, you'd expect that more information would have surfaced by now; possibly even a preliminary statement of the basic facts and 'probable causes'?

One extra bit of information I can offer from another site - the FlightGlobal reference to 'around 100 knots' was apparently very much a preliminary estimate, further analysis of the video is now pointing towards about 130 knots.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-06 23:30:32 and read 23325 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 259):
Conditions not described, Simon, but REPORTED on all the 1400, 1500 and 1600 Z (the latest with info on the aircraft mishap :

Pihero,

that's true, it was reported on the METARs (we have quoted them, too). However, METARs are (one time) observations at that given timestamp and do not reflect any weather changes that may occur between the observations. I can not conclude from the METARs therefore, that the light drizzle was continuous - only a local observing the runway (for what it matters) during that entire time would know.

The tower controller knows the airport and the runway from daily experience in various conditions and observed the runway during that entire critical time. He is also trained to describe the status of the runway accurately, so that pilots can deduct proper braking action and necessary landing distance from his words. It is very significant therefore that he used the Spanish word for damp and not wet - and that's the information we have currently on hand.

Using the video to determine the levels of water on the runway would read way too much into the video without reference pictures showing the area in various conditions and lightings (asphalt can appear fully shining like a water surface even if entirely dry!). The reflections (and spray) could even be caused by sufficiently densely fallen, but nonetheless isolated droplets of rain on the surface - because of the distance to the camera and resolution of the images on the video they still well combine to appear as a solid surface. It doesn't need to be a significant layer of fluid therefore to cause that reflection of light. But of course, the reflections can and will occur at significantly thick layers of fluid on those surfaces, too. That's all I am saying, the reflections and shininess in the pictures of the video do not necessarily allow conclusions as to the thickness of the water layer.

We need to be careful, what conclusions we can safely derive from what facts and what facts evidence is capable to deliver.

Servus, Simon

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-07 02:02:00 and read 23276 times.



Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 257):

"Pedantic" is my middle name.  Smile

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 260):
But, under 62T 1/4inch standing water (assuming there was significant traction problems, averaging out the effect equivalent to 1/4inch standing water throughout the landing), the exit velocity would be 83 - 90kts... (full revs - no revs range) assuming Vls = Vapp... I don't think that's the case... we'd be seeing a repeat of CGH or similar with that kind of excursion velocity.

Unless traction was intermittent. Again, I'm not assuming there was hydroplaning, just living up to my middle name... again.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-07 03:13:11 and read 23257 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 260):
When I look at landing accidents, I tend to look at not just at "what happened during the landing" and "what went wrong in the landing", but also factors that can precipitate in errors leading to the "what happened".

A very healthy attitude, I might add

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 260):
Poor depth perception due to higher than normal nose attitude over wet terrain,

I would say *lower* as the final trajectory is some 5° instead of the usual 3° ( there is not a lot of sky left in the windscreen, believe me )
But the gist of your argument stands when you write :

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 260):
3&4 can explain the possibility of actual landing speed being 5 kt or higher above the required Vls.

The last consideration you'd need to look into is about the final maneuver : the flare. It is just about the double of the attitude change you do usually, because of your landing attitude. With a vehicle travelling at some 75 m/s a too-smooth 2 second flare will take away 150 m of runway...you see my point.

All the discussion Simon is trying to take us into is moot : this accident has to do with speed, deceleration and distance and our assumptions on why they did not have enough runway to stop that airplane. The performance books give us a first clue : the approach conditions were marginal and they'd have needed every aspect right in order not to overshoot...

The geometry and the actual piloting aspects of the approach further emphasise how difficult it would have been to comply to the required performance : steep approach in restricted visibility, high rate of descent (with the GPWS yelling *sink rate sink rate !!!* in your ears) a flare that is nearly twice as long as we normally see...Did they manage to land slam-bang on the 700 ft marker ?

That there was *some* deceleration, there is no doubt, enough to bring them to a speed as low as to prevent some major damage and Mandala's and David's discussion on braking action vs runway state is relevant and should be continued.
It will be only then that I for one could say "Let's wait for the official preliminary report."

In the mean time, on this forum, I have every right to discuss some assumptions, either based on facts or very reasonable guess-work.

As a comment, I am also very pleased that the thread hasn't turned into the usual airbus-slugging exercise. Thank you all.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-07 09:06:54 and read 23138 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
and Mandala's and David's discussion on braking action vs runway state is relevant and should be continued.

Don't count on me contributing much more, though. I'm afraid "there may have been good braking action or there may not" is all I've got!

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-07 10:11:49 and read 23089 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 263):
Unless traction was intermittent. Again, I'm not assuming there was hydroplaning, just living up to my middle name... again.

Pedantic? It's useful at times ! *evil grin*

Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
A very healthy attitude, I might add

I have yet to have another look at the ATC conversations. I might go and listen to the files and assess the tension, and whatever else I can drag out of there... It could reveal more clues to provide a better guesstimate of what happened.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
The last consideration you'd need to look into is about the final maneuver : the flare. It is just about the double of the attitude change you do usually, because of your landing attitude. With a vehicle travelling at some 75 m/s a too-smooth 2 second flare will take away 150 m of runway...you see my point.

Yes, the flare could be even longer. Looking at the video, I sense that when the aircraft came to view, it was still derotating... I gotta run through a few more things before I redo the numbers based on that assumption.*

Perhaps AustrianSimon can assist in guesstimating the nose attitude on the first entry into camera view, and its progress (a derotation rate would be MORE than helpful).

Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
The geometry and the actual piloting aspects of the approach further emphasise how difficult it would have been to comply to the required performance : steep approach in restricted visibility, high rate of descent (with the GPWS yelling *sink rate sink rate !!!* in your ears) a flare that is nearly twice as long as we normally see...Did they manage to land slam-bang on the 700 ft marker ?

Slam bang on the piano keys is likely to be the aim... but then, the preceding seconds and the association difficulties/tensions need to be looked at.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
As a comment, I am also very pleased that the thread hasn't turned into the usual airbus-slugging exercise. Thank you all.

LOL! I see you've been bogged down by the other place eh?

Might google earth TGU to get more appreciation of the place...

*Note: Got a bit of a scare paxing a 734 into JOG/WARJ late last year, it was about 140kts touchdown (a little tailwind too), and no decel felt for about 5 secs... 350m down the drain and I was preparing to brace when the spoilers finally came up, reversers screamed, only to be drowned out by pax "noise" due to the hard braking (several heads into the seatbacks!)... Gave me a nice wake up reminder on Max Man brakes! *grin*... 2200m, near MALW for the runway... 350m no decel... thank God for factored distances! (Autospoiler would arm but not deploy all day, according to crew).

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2008-06-07 10:33:09 and read 23064 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 264):
All the discussion Simon is trying to take us into is moot : this accident has to do with speed, deceleration and distance and our assumptions on why they did not have enough runway to stop that airplane.

Hiya, Pihero,

I am not trying to deviate the discussion, but keep it based on established facts - otherwise we would waste a lot of time and brain power considering and computing scenarios, that are not close to the reality.

In the meantime a first photogrammetric analysis of the video has arrived - see the results and how it was done here:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4077cedf/0027

We are now talking about a speed of 155.5 to 156 knots at that point, when the airplane comes into view, which would result (assuming again the same position of the airplane 650 meters past the displaced threshold with 1000 meters to go, which has not yet been determined in the photogrammetry) at maximum autobrakes (3.0 m/s/s deceleration) in an overrun at 36 knots ...

Servus, Simon

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-07 11:05:16 and read 23039 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 266):
LOL! I see you've been bogged down by the other place eh?

Yes, I noticed that, too. Objectivity out the window.  sarcastic 

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 266):
only to be drowned out by pax "noise" due to the hard braking (several heads into the seatbacks!)... Gave me a nice wake up reminder on Max Man brakes! *grin*...

Sigh... that was almost routine on the old Bellerophonmobile.  Sad

Quoting AustrianSimon (Reply 267):
Hiya, Pihero,

I am not trying to deviate the discussion, but keep it based on established facts

OK, but the fact that things would have been "tight" even at Pihero's estimated minimum landing speed must be considered as "interesting".

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: CM767
Posted 2008-06-07 11:22:48 and read 23038 times.

I have follow this discussion minutes after the accident, Yet another overrun and I would have raise the same question again. Is not time for people on the ground to declare that an airport should be closed on marginal weather conditions?

Here we have compared this overrun to others, and yes IB, P5, and even TAM have one thing in common the weather, The TAM overrun has been explained by the investigators, but still I have to wonder if weather was a contributing factor.

Another factor that we should not forget is fatigue, I just received an email, supposed to be from an ex TA pilot making strong accusations against management and claiming that morale could be down amongst pilots. All in Spanish, I would not like to post it here, since I could not confirm the origin.

[Edited 2008-06-07 11:29:07]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-07 17:37:20 and read 22899 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 265):
Don't count on me contributing much more, though. I'm afraid "there may have been good braking action or there may not" is all I've got!

You're not going to chicken out on us, are you ?
It's late and I'll see you guys to-morrow.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-07 20:51:28 and read 22841 times.

Quoting CM767 (Reply 269):
I just received an email, supposed to be from an ex TA pilot making strong accusations against management and claiming that morale could be down amongst pilots. All in Spanish, I would not like to post it here, since I could not confirm the origin.

It was originally a letter sent by former TACA pilot Reynier Veliz to the most widely read newspaper in Guatemala. Its authenticity isn't being questioned anymore at this point.

Drawn by his startling allegations about working conditions in TACA (and pilot fatigue associated with the airline's crew scheduling practices) numerous aviation-related blogs and message boards across Central America have been reproducing the document in the last couple of days.

Today's edition of Honduran newspaper La Tribuna includes what Capt. Veliz had to say (in its entirety) as part of a story titled "El Salvador viola soberania de Honduras en investigacion del 390".

Those interested should find the subheading UNA CARTA REVELADORA about half-way down the page and read on from there. For those non-Spanish speakers who might encounter some difficulty making sense of the machine translated text, here are a few fair use excerpts...

"What does TACA have now? Very few pilots. Pilots who must fly a whole lot in order to meet all of their scheduled flights."

"TACA is going through a tough time. It wants to grow as a company, but doesn't improve its working conditions. It makes them worse."

"Things have gotten so extreme that TACA requires its pilot applicants to take a polygraph test in order to determine whether they intend to stay with the company for good or to seek employment elsewhere in the future."

[Edited 2008-06-07 21:10:06]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-08 00:10:49 and read 22742 times.



Quoting CM767 (Reply 269):
The TAM overrun has been explained by the investigators

Not sure about that, CM767?

As far as I know there has been speculation that one of the thrust levers was not placed in the 'idle' or 'reverse' position, and that this may have prevented the autobrakes from operating and the ground spoilers from deploying; and also caused the engine in question to deliver 'climb thrust.'

But as far as I know, no sort of official investigation report has been published yet? If one has been, and I missed it, could you please provide a link?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-08 02:38:08 and read 22709 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 272):
As far as I know there has been speculation that one of the thrust levers was not placed in the 'idle' or 'reverse' position,

If you call preliminary reports by the investigators and by Airbus "speculation", yes. It seemed like pretty reliable evidence to me.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-08 03:16:27 and read 22729 times.

Let's have another look at:


Given the timestamps on the recordings, I have the following conclusions:

1. Aircraft initially intended to approach 20. At 10NM to TNT, they were still at 9000 when cleared for the approach. They were 2000ft too high.

Quote:
15:23:35Z
TA390: Affirm. TACA three niner zero, maintaining 9000 feet to 10 miles.
TGUAP: Roger, TACA three niner zero. Cleared for approach runway two zero. Report lights of runway in sight.
TA390: Will report runway in sight, cleared for approach runway two zero. TACA three niner zero. Thank you.

2. Assuming a ground speed of 170kts, they were in sight at near or around DME5.0 TNT. Aircraft proceeded towards airfield and commenced right pattern circuit at 5500ft (2000 - 2500ft above airport elev), which is where the Broken cloud was according to the METARs.

3. They abandoned approach 1 minute after commencing turn to downwind 20, requesting climb on 008 radial. Tower granted permission.

4. Approach then instructed them to make a left turn towards TNT VOR instead of continuing to go on 008 radial. They must have been at 6000 or above for this to happen.

5. At 15:28:46, they made the first request to 02. The left turn to TNT possibly allowed the crew to assessto the cloud locations left to their aircraft (they were heading south preparing for the left turn to leave VOR at radial 008).

6. The next few minutes is currently a mystery. For 4 minutes... the aircraft would have been flying 10 track NM from the last conversation. If we take the left turn to leave TNT at 008, then they would have been at most 3 mins out of TNT on 008, 7.5NM, at 8000ft (based on last altitude clearance).

7. Taking into account the standard proc turn, and the next call, they were at 8DME upon completion of turn, and inbound. The timings roughly matched this. What is not clear is, who in ATC did they talk to *listen to tapes*

Wind was reported at 180/07.

8. At 15:40:17, they had runway in sight, roughly at just after the MAP, and is assumed at 6000ft.

9. Tower did caution the new wind, 200/10.

10. Last transmission was the landing clearance and wind at 190/10.

---

Based on just the conversation, there appears to be several items questioned.
1. It is understood that a straight in to 20 was impractical, hence the circuit instead. But, they maintained 5500 during this, and abandoning the approach should have been a straight climb to 8000ft to join radial 008. Instead, they decided to make a left turn back to the VOR to leave VOR at 008. This would add tension to the cockpit. However, I can only guess that they're doing this to assess the cloud condition that made them abandon the 20 circling. This leads me to believe that the crew's attention was "how do I get there."

2. The procedure turn at 15:35:07 was completed at 15:38:41, and at D8 TNT. This leads me to believe they were eager to get there sooner. D8TNT@8000 means they're again, too high for the approach.

3. The crew was cautioned of the wind by ATC. However, they acknowledged continuing to land at 02 would result in a 10kt tailwind on a wet runway. It is possible that their own "safeguard" of "we can take 02 if wind is 5kts" was overtaken by their desire to land.

4. The overall view of the ATC transcripts describe the crew in a bit of a hurry, with several seemingly meaningless things in their actions passing through. Several shortcuts also leads me to believe that they were looking for an excuse/gap for them to land. This leads to increased stress due to shorter than anticipated preparations, especially given that they changed the runway for landing (albeit with the same instrument procedures) that is now around 200m shorter on the LDA, and shortcut its entry.

The final wind of 190/10kts would probably give the most difficult circumstances to land for 02, rather than a slightly different 200/10kts. This is because the the last 1km of approach is roughly on the 010 heading, down the slope, very low, with a straight tailwind.

Given the possibility of "rushing" and get-there-itis, this also leads to possibility of excess speed, or general poor speed control.

---
Now, the video camera.
Checking the position of the camera, I estimate it is at about 620m from the threshold when abeam. But the aircraft entered the view at a slight off angle, estimated at 688m past threshold.

My speed estimates range from 120 - 128kts (based at timestamps 19.828, 20.421 and 22.031)
---

Fatigue????
Well, we all know fatigue + terrain + weather = high risk...

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-08 03:37:37 and read 22661 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 273):
If you call preliminary reports by the investigators and by Airbus "speculation", yes. It seemed like pretty reliable evidence to me.

Googled before I posted, DavidL. Much to my surprise (no kidding  Smile) I couldn't find anything official at all. As I said, if there IS something, like say a preliminary report (which one would expect by this time), please post a link?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-08 06:08:32 and read 22698 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 275):

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...etard-right-hand-thrust-lever.html

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/read.main/3541008/#55

Note I said "preliminary reports", not "The Preliminary Report". I'd call it "good reason to suspect" rather than "just speculation".

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-08 07:15:30 and read 22673 times.

David L:-

"For reasons yet to be explained, the pilot, in the final moments before touchdown, retarded only the thrust lever for the left-hand engine – first into the ‘idle’ position, then into ‘reverse’. This action disconnected the auto-thrust, as per its design. The failure to move the right-hand engine’s thrust lever to the reverse position runs contrary to the standard operating procedure which calls for both levers to be set to ‘idle’ and then 'reverse' – even with a thruster reverser inoperative."

Perfectly fair report by a respected journalist as to what un-named 'people' were saying at the time. But no more than that. Please note in particular the phrase "For reasons yet to be explained."

Personally, as a 'sorta pilot,' I remain sceptical that the (late) captains at Congonhas and Tegucigalpa (respectively), who had each logged over 11,000 hours, could possibly have made such an elementary mistake.

But I'll happily retract, if you can point (and link) to an official investigation report that confirms the 'thrust levers incorrectly-positioned/pilot error' thesis? Preferably also describing the possible 'reasons why'?

[Edited 2008-06-08 07:29:11]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-06-08 07:43:32 and read 22629 times.

Update:

TGU has banned the operation of mainline aircrafts with capacity larger to 42 passengers, which means that the ATR-42 is the biggest airplane that at the moment can operate in the mentioned airport.
That being said, the following flights are being affected:

TA SAL-TGU-SAP-MIA...........Airbus 320
CM PTY-SJO-TGU.................Boeing 73G
AA MIA-TGU.........................,Boeing 757
CO IAH-TGU..........................Boeing 73G

Authorities of aviation of Honduras try that the former military airport of Comayagua replaces TGU in 60 days. Nevertheless, optimal highways, military protection as well as international certification for the beginning of their commercial operations are compulsory required.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: David L
Posted 2008-06-08 08:26:23 and read 22586 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 277):
if you can point (and link) to an official investigation report that confirms the 'thrust levers incorrectly-positioned/pilot error' thesis? Preferably also describing the possible 'reasons why'?



Quoting David L (Reply 276):
Note I said "preliminary reports", not "The Preliminary Report". I'd call it "good reason to suspect" rather than "just speculation".

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-08 12:54:14 and read 22479 times.

Mandala499,
It is quite apparent that the first reported approach was on the VOR 02, with a possible circling for a right-hand circuit for RWY 20.
On this approach, the MDA is 5,500 ft, which they maintained until they had field in sight...

Now, the circling height is 6,000 ft and they - in all probability - changed their strategy for rejoining the missed approach procedure for RWY 02, which calls for a climb on rad 008° and then a left procedure turn to the VOR...

Another change of strategy as they now have a better grasp of the visibility North of the field and they rejoined (this is the part that's not clear to me ) the circling visual for 02...

These decisions seem hurried but they are just about every day's occurrences to a captain.
Listening to the voice transcript, I could hear no worry at all ...the one in charge of communications sounded very sure of himself, almost chirpy.

I got hold of my FCOM and started the performance computations for RWY 02 :


  • LDA = Landing distance available : 1650 m
  • baseline calculation : LW = 60 T ; RWY wet ; 5 kt tailwind : 1,352 m
    (1110m + 10% altitude correction, 10.5% tailwind correction and -3% for operating reversers ).
    According to these figures, the aircraft dispatch was legal.
  • Now I calculated the maximum allowable weight in these conditions and I found 68 T, quite a hefty margin, it seems.
  • It is now time to look into the influence of the 10 kt tailwind : a whopping 21 % ! and in this case a landing weight of 66 t was allowed.
  • Our landing distance at 60 t and 10 kt tailwind now comes to 1,472 m

That latest figure means that , passing the threshold at 50 ft, they could have stopped some 178 m before the end of RWY 02. Sounds enough ?
Not really as at the lowest ground speed estimate of 148 kt ( = 77 m/s ), they only represent 2.3 seconds of travel. I have again to remark that these figures are for a *normal* landing geometry, starting from a 3° g/s and the flying bang on SOPs. These 2.3 seconds then become very tight for a 5° flare, de-rotation, brakes and reversers on a runway with known slippery touch-down zones.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-06-08 13:05:26 and read 22477 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 277):
Perfectly fair report by a respected journalist as to what un-named 'people' were saying at the time. But no more than that. Please note in particular the phrase "For reasons yet to be explained."

Personally, as a 'sorta pilot,' I remain sceptical that the (late) captains at Congonhas and Tegucigalpa (respectively), who had each logged over 11,000 hours, could possibly have made such an elementary mistake.

But I'll happily retract, if you can point (and link) to an official investigation report that confirms the 'thrust levers incorrectly-positioned/pilot error' thesis? Preferably also describing the possible 'reasons why'?

Nav, experience doesn't mean you're infallible... you can make the simplest of mistakes even if you got 20,000hrs. If you dig into the archives, you'd find that such mistake has happened before (accident Taiwan, and an incident in US)... we've discussed that to death over there and let's not repeat it allover again here.

Recently I talked to an accident investigator, that in his expert opinion accident/incident risks are higher where 1 pilot is much more highly experienced than the other... but most occurences go unreported beyond safety reports that are not available to the public.

We got a >10,000hrs captain landing his 734 at 190 knots once... an A320 crewmember with >10,000hrs forgetting to retard both levers (while Airbus has issued new SOPs to reduce this risk, but it still happened), and a 733 captain landed his plane long on a 1700m runway last month... he had >10,000hrs too...

So why is it hard to accept that this time, another >10.000hrs pilot may have made an error leading to an accident?

I once read a pilot wrote:
"Don't fall into the trap of excessively fancying the expert pilots over the knowledgeable and competent junior pilot's opinion .. as most pilots will acknowledge, while the average expert pilot has made far more mistakes than the average amateur ... he/she generally hasn't had time to have made all the possible mistakes ..." (courtesy of a friend at the NTSC).

Or as 1 pilot recruiter once said...
"It's not the hours that matter, it's his mindset and his awareness of his own limitations that matter."

We are after all... just mere humans...

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Ludavid777
Posted 2008-06-08 17:16:29 and read 22349 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 233):
Of the nine flight attendants on board the aircraft, four were on duty. Two of them were reportedly still hospitalized (along with the co-pilot) as of the day after the accident.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 278):
TGU has banned the operation of mainline aircrafts with capacity larger to 42 passengers, which means that the ATR-42 is the biggest airplane that at the moment can operate in the mentioned airport.

Authorities of aviation of Honduras try that the former military airport of Comayagua replaces TGU in 60 days. Nevertheless, optimal highways, military protection as well as international certification for the beginning of their commercial operations are compulsory required.

That was the initial request from the President right after the accident happened. The airport has remained closed to any aircraft that holds more than 42 seats since then, and all flights have been diverting to SAP.

There are many groups opposed to the moving of the airport.
So now they've given 4 different options,
*Option 1 - InterAirports (the airports in Honduras are privately managed) offered extending the current Toncontin-TGU airport by 100 meters by building an extension bridge at the end of the runway.
*Option 2 - Would be Comayagua-Airforce base.
*Option 3 - Build a whole new airport in Talanga, which is a suburb or TGU, a lot closer than Comyagua.
*Option 4 - They are revisiting the possibility of building the airport in the North part of the city, on a mesa on top of a mountain... which was a project looked at for years, but studies came back with to much wind, to much fog, and other conditions were not optimal, but now they are rethinking...

Last I heard they will allow traffic back to Toncontin eventually until the decide on which project to attend.

On another note, Honduran local news had a TACA employee who plain out said the captain who was flying flt 390-crash, had NEVER flown into TGU and was not rated to fly into TGU. Because TACA is having a pilot shortage they assigned him TGU to fly that day to fill in the void.

Not sure if he's a reliable source, for all we know he could've just gotten fired from TACA and is his way to stir things up... I'm sure when they do the investigation it'll come out in that case.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-06-08 18:47:00 and read 22320 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
Option 1 - InterAirports (the airports in Honduras are privately managed) offered extending the current Toncontin-TGU airport by 100 meters by building an extension bridge at the end of the runway.

With due respect, this argument faces some high technical issues:
1. The space shortage is a strong variable that would act against an easy, cheap and fast development. This fact is obvious analyzing the pictures displayed some posts above concerning to the topographic conditions at the end of the runway.
2. The structural design of their elements of support could involve extraordinary live loads that would generate exaggerated dimensions in their basic structural members: plates of foundation, columns, beams, thickness of slab and so on.




.

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
*Option 3 - Build a whole new airport in Talanga, which is a suburb or TGU, a lot closer than Comayagua.

The valley of Talanga is placed 54 kilometers away of the Honduran capital city.
A Japanese consulting group analyzed the feasibility for the construction of a new airport for Tegucigalpa by 1978.
However, the zone doesn't provide some basic requirements as potable water systems and decent roads nowadays.
It looks like this is rather a project in the long-term.
The next Honduran press release in Spanish language states further information and pictures.

http://www2.laprensahn.com/blogs/lap...eavivan-el-sueno-de-un-aeropuerto/

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-08 21:42:52 and read 22263 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
Honduran local news had a TACA employee who plain out said the captain who was flying flt 390-crash, had NEVER flown into TGU and was not rated to fly into TGU. Because TACA is having a pilot shortage they assigned him TGU to fly that day to fill in the void.

Honduran daily Proceso quoted Capt. Jorge Torres (said to be an experienced commercial and military pilot in Honduras with over 40,000 flight hours) last Wednesday as calling on TACA to "provide a truthful and complete report with regard to the training received by the plane's captain, how many hours he had accumulated on the A320, and the names of the pilot trainers who certified him to fly into Toncontin."

Capt. Torres also questioned the "hurried decision" regarding the future of Tegucigalpa's only airport. He blasted President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras (who according to several press accounts had been on a conference call with TACA's Chairman of the Board/CEO Roberto Kriete and Salvadoran President Tony Saca following the crash) for "yielding to their demands and shutting down Toncontin with a single blow, just four hours after the accident, against the advice of Honduran technicians."

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
I'm sure when they do the investigation it'll come out in that case.

Yeah. Dream on!

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2008-06-09 04:50:19 and read 22090 times.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 283):
2. The structural design of their elements of support could involve extraordinary live loads that would generate exaggerated dimensions in their basic structural members: plates of foundation, columns, beams, thickness of slab and so on.

Works fine in FNC, but would 100m mean all that much?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Pihero
Posted 2008-06-09 06:06:44 and read 22046 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 284):
Capt. Jorge Torres (said to be an experienced commercial and military pilot in Honduras with over 40,000 flight hours)

There is some excess of journalistic enthousiasm, here.40,ooo hours is an unachievable feat nowadays, especially if one has flown military where flying is not that easy for budget reasons.

but funny enough, on proone, there is an experienced 757 captain who claims that the closure of the airport to over-42-pax airplanes is a bad decision.
But politics should not be forgotten, I guess.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 284):
Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
I'm sure when they do the investigation it'll come out in that case.

Yeah. Dream on!

Nowadays, accident investigations are very much international and the inclusion of manufacturers and their own safety organisations makes the publication of the findings quite usual ; that said, we can also see official disagreements between the involved countries as to the conclusions and recommendations, but the report will still be published.
There is basically no way for a country to prevent that (as examples, see that almost all the accident reports involving Egyptian registered airplanes or aircrews have been challenged by the authorities of Egypt...They still stand and lawsuits are still in process at the time we write this) .

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-06-09 06:34:09 and read 22022 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 279):
Quoting David L (Reply 276):
Note I said "preliminary reports", not "The Preliminary Report". I'd call it "good reason to suspect" rather than "just speculation".

Fair enough, DavidL, I'll settle for that.  Smile

I was honestly surprised to find that, nearly a year after Congonhas, the investigators have not yet even published 'preliminary findings.' It's pretty well their duty to do that ASAP - thousands of pilots are making thousands of flights every day, they have a right (and need) to know everything related to 'possible causes' that has been established about any accident, as soon as it HAS been established.

By the same token, I'm equally surprised that absolutely nothing has been published or even 'leaked' by the authorities about Tegucigalpa, after more than a week. As I said earlier, they must already have information from the FDR and CVR, plus a first-hand account provided by the First Officer.

If, as we all currently suspect, it was just basically a 'float and long landing' caused by an unwise downwind approach to a 'difficult' airport, with no other factors involved, surely they'd have said as much by now?

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2008-06-09 07:19:07 and read 21999 times.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 285):
Works fine in FNC, but would 100m mean all that much?

The extension of the track does not seem to solve definitively such problem at TGU:

Current length of runway: 6132 ft that equates to 1869 meters.
Proposed extension: 328 ft that equates to 100 meters.
New fictitious length: 6460 ft that equates to 1969 meters.
Ratio of change: 5%

Furthermore, the technical solution that was applied in Portugal could not match with the economic sources of the Central American nations.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-06-09 07:49:35 and read 21973 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 281):
So why is it hard to accept that this time, another >10.000hrs pilot may have made an error leading to an accident?



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 281):
We are after all... just mere humans...

..just as that article on Air Florida I mentioned earlier points out. The human traits of reality-evasion and self-deception do funny things to the way some people assess risk and this make decisions...

(Article still available, gratis, to anyone that desires a copy)

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AM744
Posted 2008-06-09 08:56:58 and read 21929 times.



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 282):
but studies came back with to much wind, to much fog, and other conditions were not optimal, but now they are rethinking...

Not the best idea IMO. Weather won't change. Lots of failed regional airports in Mexico have demonstrated this again and again, being built in less that appropriate locales due to obscure interests, rather that scientific criteria.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-09 22:12:11 and read 21691 times.

And now a second letter has surfaced on various aviation-related blogs and message boards across Central America (this one presumably written by former TACA first officer Sergio Morales) lambasting the Salvadoran airline for poor working conditions and crew fatigue.

In other news, it's been several days since all remaining TACA logos were covered up with large tarps and painted over. Now the whole shebang is finally being carted away in pieces...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mirrodie
Posted 2008-06-10 10:22:29 and read 21539 times.

Here she is in better days, with a fresh coat of paint, less than a week prior to the horrible accicent.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario J Craig



Sure wish she were still up in the skies.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MIAMIx707
Posted 2008-06-10 14:11:02 and read 21445 times.

What airline is the ATR @ 2:14 on this TGU video?



I watched this 320 a few months ago when operating SJO-MCO in Martinair colors, surprised it was already repainted.

By the way there are other landing videos at Toncontin and it seems planes land with room to spare, yet an USAF C130 landed long, crashed and burned in this same spot 10 years ago. There seems like no room for an aborted takeoff there

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 291):
And now a second letter has surfaced on various aviation-related blogs and message boards across Central America (this one presumably written by former TACA first officer Sergio Morales) lambasting the Salvadoran airline for poor working conditions and crew fatigue.

I've been told by a pilot familiar with TACA that a pilot could be put on the hot seat by the
airline if he/she makes a decision to land at an alternate airport (bringing additional cost and disruption to the airline). Also word is Airbus didn't want TACA operating the 320 to TGU. It seems safety comes second with TACA.

If anyone remembers the CU crash at UIO, those crews knew they would get in trouble if they didn't get that Tu154 out of there. It ended up costing them their lives.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Viaggiare
Posted 2008-06-11 10:31:11 and read 21247 times.



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 293):
Also word is Airbus didn't want TACA operating the 320 to TGU. It seems safety comes second with TACA.

And in a somewhat amusing twist of events, the Honduran human rights commissioner is suggesting that the (highly unpopular) TGU closure should be limited to "the airline that has had accidents of consideration in its landings" while resuming international flights for everyone else.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-06-11 19:43:41 and read 21085 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 294):

And in a somewhat amusing twist of events, the Honduran human rights commissioner is suggesting that the (highly unpopular) TGU closure should be limited to "the airline that has had accidents of consideration in its landings" while resuming international flights for everyone else

That has got to be be one of the dumbest thing i have ever heard... I guess Air France should be banned from Toronto and Southwest from Midway..

Our little countries have such a long long long way to go...

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MIAMIx707
Posted 2008-06-12 07:54:13 and read 20967 times.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 294):
And in a somewhat amusing twist of events, the Honduran human rights commissioner is suggesting that the (highly unpopular) TGU closure should be limited to "the airline that has had accidents of consideration in its landings" while resuming international flights for everyone else.

with that same logic they would've had to ban their own airline TAN at least twice

The 3rd world mentality never goes away, why? I have no idea

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-06-12 11:27:15 and read 20782 times.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 299):
all that nonsense rant just because I wrote "word"?

I was trying to explain why we have such a hard time to get rid of our Third World Mentality. I still stand by what i said.

All i am saying is that why do we default to these conspiracies theories and gloss over the more obvious possibilities?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 299):
Latin America is 3rd world, if you're from there I'm not sorry because I'm also from there

Im from there too - and trust me i do know my own peoples mentality.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 299):
BANANALAND (para que no jodas) [/quote]

Why would I? I prefer the more dignified term "Banana Republic" myself...

[quote=MIAMIx707,reply=299]Why are you so surprised Airbus didn't like TACA flying the 320 there?

It just doesn't make sense. If you cant produce an official Airbus Press Release - i don't buy it.

[Edited 2008-06-12 11:32:27]

[Edited 2008-06-12 11:32:46]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2008-06-12 12:00:02 and read 20739 times.

There is something to be said also for the "must get to the destination at all cost" idea. Had this flght diverted to SAP for example....TA would have had an unhappy bunch of pax on their hands.....for which HQ would have surely told the pilot something about.

Sometimes humans take risks just so they don't have to deal with the consequences of being safe.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: AM744
Posted 2008-06-12 13:59:32 and read 20680 times.



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 296):
The 3rd world mentality never goes away, why? I have no idea

I do. Corruption leads to huge monetary gains by those who engage on it. The cost might well be citizens lives, which are not highly regarded by most 3rd world governments.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: MIAMIx707
Posted 2008-06-12 21:00:46 and read 20557 times.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 297):

It just doesn't make sense. If you cant produce an official Airbus Press Release - i don't buy it.

Then don't. And I support your decision not to believe it. But don't tell me it's a "tia Maria told me so rumor through the grapevine" kind of thing and discredit the information just because YOU don't buy it. I have to talk to the person again to get more details but there might not have been anything publicly released, if not the media would've picked up on it already to add more drama to the story

Quoting AM744 (Reply 299):

I do. Corruption leads to huge monetary gains by those who engage on it. The cost might well be citizens lives, which are not highly regarded by most 3rd world governments.

You're right, but corruption exists everywhere. However in some places there are stricter laws, and just a different mindset that isn't so much about screwing the next guy over, as long as I have a gain, it's hard to explain. For as much as Latin America is fascinated by communism/socialist ideals, we still have a long ways to go to reach the more collective mindset of the Europeans, Israelis, Asians, etc.

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Mt99
Posted 2008-06-13 06:55:02 and read 20466 times.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 300):
But don't tell me it's a "tia Maria told me so rumor through the grapevine" kind of thing and discredit the information just because YOU don't buy it.

I can tell you then, that my neighbor heard that Airbus encouraged TACA to use the A320 into TGU because it proved the superior capabilities of the aircraft. Just like the A318 taking off from London City, and the use of the A319 in Nepal.

There - your version is just as valid as mines. Don't buy it if you don't want - but is true  Wink

[Edited 2008-06-13 07:12:15]

Topic: RE: Taca Landing Accident In Honduras
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2008-06-13 12:54:39 and read 20336 times.

With this thread at over 300 posts, please continue the discussion here:

TACA Landing Accident In Honduras Part 2


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