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Topic: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Amax1977
Posted 2008-07-03 00:13:17 and read 5529 times.

Today is the 20th annivesary of IR655 crash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

R.I.P  tombstone 

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: OA260
Posted 2008-07-03 01:56:29 and read 5474 times.



Quoting Amax1977 (Thread starter):
crash

It was not a crash it was illegally shot down by the US military . One of Americas darkest hours.

RIP

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: CF105Arrow
Posted 2008-07-03 01:57:56 and read 5476 times.

Sad story resulting in 290 unnecessary deaths.  tombstone 

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Amax1977
Posted 2008-07-03 09:04:50 and read 5355 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
It was not a crash it was illegally shot down by the US military .

You are right. Very sad and dark day.  tombstone 

By the way, how can an A300 look like a F14 fighter from the ground?!!!

[Edited 2008-07-03 09:18:38]

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2008-07-03 09:35:14 and read 5301 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
It was not a crash it was illegally shot down by the US military . One of Americas darkest hours.

In what way was it "illegally" shot down? It entered a combat zone (initiated by the Iranians) and the Vincennes did everything required of it under both the law and military regs to contact the plane. It's a sad story, and certainly I'd agree that it was one of America's darkest hours, but not one you can blame on the US military. Blame the Iranians for initiating combat and not warning one of their own airliners to stay out of the area.

The information the captain had at the time was that this was an Iranian plane that took off during combat, that at one point was squawking on a dual military/civilian channel, was at one point identified as an F-14, and was descending directly towards the fleet. Obviously not all of that information was correct, but the captain made the only decision he could with the information that he had. In fact, he waited so long that if it was an F-14, it probably would have been too late.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Mattnrsa
Posted 2008-07-03 10:22:16 and read 5250 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
It entered a combat zone (initiated by the Iranians)

From the article, "the flight was assigned routinely to commercial air corridor Amber 59, a twenty-mile (32 km)-wide lane on a direct line to Dubai airport" Also, the Vincennes crew did not try to contact the flight on ATC frequencies. I don't think there is any denying the Vincennes crew made a serious mistake.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: HomaDreaming
Posted 2008-07-03 10:39:15 and read 5226 times.

Tragic event, and a shameful act...a lot of people died, and it was a horrible thing that happened...I was very little when this happened...but I remember haunting images of floating dead bodies on the Persian Gulf on Iranian Television. As an Iranian-American its definitely hard for me to point fingers at whose to blame...all I know is that commercial Jetliners carrying civilians should never be subject to such ''Mistakes" or ''Accidents'' again.

May all Rest in Peace...  tombstone 

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2008-07-03 11:18:45 and read 5179 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
but not one you can blame on the US military

 Yeah sure  banghead 

Sad day, RIP

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: GoDIA
Posted 2008-07-03 13:40:58 and read 5106 times.



Quoting Amax1977 (Reply 3):
By the way, how can an A300 look like a F14 fighter from the ground?!!!

I really HATE to point out the obvious, but the A300 was identified ELECTRONICALLY, by the Vincennes' Aegis radar system--it was NOT a visual error. Plus, the Iranian jet never responded to radio calls (admittedly, the crew did err in not using the ATC frequency--they called on the Guard channel). It was a mistake, and a tragic one...but NOT a deliberate attempt to shoot down a defenseless airliner.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: VANGUARD737
Posted 2008-07-03 22:03:53 and read 4993 times.

this post really should be better-monitored or just simply deleted

anyone with half a brain knows it is just going to be used as yet-another excuse for USA-bashing

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2008-07-03 23:17:46 and read 4959 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
In what way was it "illegally" shot down?

 wideeyed 

In the way that shooting down a civil airliner full of passengers is not "legal" according to all the International laws.

Funny to see that when the Soviet Union shoot down a Korean B747, it is an unacceptable and "terrible act of Barbarism", but when the U.S shoot down an Iranian Airbus, it's "oooops !!! Sorry ! bad mistake".

Here is a transcript of the CVR :

Time
UTC Local Talker Transcript
Bandar Abbas Tower (BND TWR) 118.1 MHz
06:34:50 10:04:50 IR655 Tower, IranAir 655
06:34:56 10:04:56 BND TWR IranAir 655, Tower; go ahead
06:34:59 10:04:59 IR655 * Request start up clearance
06:35:06 10:05:06 BND TWR 655, say again please
06:35:08 10:05:08 IR655 Start up clearance
06:35:10 10:05:10 BND TWR Roger; standby; confirm 160 Dubai
06:35:15 10:05:15 IR655 Flight level 140 if possible
06:35:16 10:05:16 BND TWR 140
06:35:17 10:05:17 IR655 Okay
06:38:00 10:08:00 IR655 * Tower, 655
06:38:05 10:08:05 BND TWR * 655, go ahead
06:38:06 10:08:06 IR655 * Request start up for taxi
06:38:10 10:08:10 BND TWR Cleared to start, temperature 35 {Celsius}
06:38:14 10:08:14 IR655 655; thank you
06:40:21 10:10:21 IR655 Tower, 655; request taxi
06:40:26 10:10:26 BND TWR IranAir 655, taxi to holding point, runway 21, via Tango 05; wind calm; QNH 998 {barometric pressure in millibars}; time is 0640 {UTC}
06:40:37 10:10:37 IR655 IranAir 655 cleared taxi for runway 21, taxiway 5; 998
06:41:17 10:11:17 IR655 * Confirm taxiway 5 is open
06:41:20 10:11:20 BND TWR * Yes, it is open
06:41:22 10:11:22 IR655 (Microphone click)
06:41:44 10:11:44 BND TWR * 655, caution; construction work in progress at the entrance of taxiway 5
06:41:50 10:11:50 IR655 (Microphone click)
06:41:59 10:11:59 IR655 * Tower, can we use taxiway 7
06:42:08 10:12:08 BND TWR * Continue taxi via parking area to taxiway 7. Caution construction work on both sides
06:42:20 10:12:20 IR655 (Microphone click)
06:43:19 10:13:19 BND TWR IranAir 655, copy your ATC clearance
06:43:24 10:13:24 IR 655 Go ahead
06:43:25 10:13:25 BND TWR IranAir 655 is cleared to destination Dubai via flight plan route 1 ; climb and maintain flight level 140 {14,000 feet, pressure altitude}; after take off follow simulated MOBET 1 BRAVO departure 2 {a straight ahead climb}, squawking ALPHA 6760 {transponder ID code}
06:43:41 10:13:41 IR 655 IranAir 655 cleared destination flight planned route; flight level 140; simulated MOBET 1 BRAVO; and squawk 6760
06:43:53 10:13:53 BND TWR Squawk 6760, IranAir 655; that is correct; call when ready for departure
06:43:59 10:13:59 IR 655 Call you for departure
06:45:30 10:15:30 IR 655 Tower, IranAir 655 ready for take off
06:45:34 10:15:34 BND TWR IranAir 655 cleared for take off runway 21; wind calm; after departure contact approach 124.2; have a nice flight
06:45:43 10:15:43 IR 655 655 cleared for take off 21; after take off, with approach; thank you very much; good day
Bandar Abbas Approach Control (BND APP) 124.2 MHz
06:49:18 10:19:18 IR 655 Good morning; IranAir 655 airborne out of 3550 {feet, actual**}
06:49:24 10:19:24 BND APP IranAir 655, good morning to you; continue as cleared; next report at MOBET {30 n.miles from the VORTAC navigation radio, at the center of the airport} * and standing by for your estimate
06:49:33 10:19:33 BND APP Roger; estimate MOBET time 52 {10:22 local time}, FIR 58 {10:28}, destination 0715 {11:15 Dubai time} {FIR refers to DARAX, 69 n.miles from the center of the airport, the next waypoint after MOBET, and the Flight Information Region boundary between Tehran ACC (Area Control Centre) and Emirates ACC}
06:49:43 10:19:43 BND APP IranAir 655, roger
Iran Air Company frequency 131.8 MHz
06:50:00? 10:20:00? IR 655 {No transcript}: “On reaching 1000 ft altitude the flight would have commenced flap retraction and transition from initial climb to enroute climb followed by the after take-off checks. During this time the call was made to the Iran Air office at Bandar Abbas with a departure message.” ICAO, ¶ 2.10.9, p.16
Tehran Area Control Centre (THR ACC) 133.4 MHz
06:50:54 10:20:54 IR 655 ...(unreadable)...
06:50:59 10:20:59 THR ACC Station calling Tehran
06:51:04 10:21:04 IR 655 IranAir 655 from Bandar Abbas to Dubai; out of level 70 {7,525 feet actual**} for 140; estimating FIR 58, Dubai 0715
06:51:20 10:21:20 THR ACC Roger; report maintaining 140 and passing DARAX
06:51:26 10:21:26 IR 655 Roger
06:51:28 10:21:28 THR ACC Confirm you are squawking 6760
06:51:30 10:21:30 IR 655 Affirmative
Bandar Abbas Approach Control (BND APP) 124.2 MHz
06:54:00 10:24:00 IR 655 655, position MOBET, out of 120 {12,525 feet, actual**}
06:54:07 10:24:07 BND APP IranAir 655, roger; contact Tehran Control 133.4; have a nice flight
06:54:11 10:24:11 IR 655 Thank you; good day
_____

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Amax1977
Posted 2008-07-03 23:36:16 and read 4943 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
shooting down a civil airliner full of passengers is not "legal" according to all the International laws.

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Curious
Posted 2008-07-04 00:17:19 and read 4911 times.

Also at the time of the shooting the Vinceness had crossed into Iranian waters.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-07-04 00:26:07 and read 4900 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
In what way was it "illegally" shot down?


In the way that shooting down a civil airliner full of passengers is not "legal" according to all the International laws.

Over 20 civilian airliners have been shot down since the 1950s killing approximately 1400 passengers and crew.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-07-04 00:38:11 and read 4890 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
In what way was it "illegally" shot down?

A US warship shot down an unarmed civilian airliner. You think that's legal?  Wow!

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
It entered a combat zone

I presume you'd be able to show some documented evidence to back this claim up?

Most of the rest of the World (including other US warships in the area) thought IR655 was flying in a recognised air corridor at the time.

The Vincennes was also illegally in Iranian territorial waters at the time.

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 9):
yet-another excuse for USA-bashing

I don't see any USA "bashing". Are you suggesting the USA is above any criticism, even if it's fully justified?

The simple facts are, the most sophisticated vessel in the US Navy's fleet at that time (or more correctly, the men on board) was not able to tell the difference between a climbing A300 and an F-14 in attack mode.

No, I don't believe for one second the plane was shot down deliberately. However, some serious mistakes and errors of judgement led to the awful conclusion of this incident.

If you are going to characterise justified criticism of these events as "US bashing", then I think you need to develop a thicker skin.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: UPPERDECKFAN
Posted 2008-07-04 03:19:16 and read 4836 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Over 20 civilian airliners have been shot down since the 1950s killing approximately 1400 passengers and crew.

Including the infamous KE007 shot down by USSR almost 25 years ago

Quoting Amax1977 (Reply 3):
By the way, how can an A300 look like a F14 fighter from the ground?!!!

The same way that a B742 didn't look look like it from a USSR fighter cockpit on Sep 1st, 1983

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: AirxLiban
Posted 2008-07-04 06:19:58 and read 4748 times.

Some of the replies to this thread echo the American response in the aftermath of the shooting down of IR 655 by the USS Vincennes - a response which was as obscene as it was false. Hollow words of regret - we accidentally shot it down, and it is a tragedy but it is the Iranians' fault, not ours!

The bloodbath of 290 civilians including 66 children created by the firing of missiles in desperate act of self defense by the Vincennes is certainly a tragedy, but the circumstances under which this horrifying story transpired is an outrage. What is most revealing is that the Captain of another US warship in the area commented that the destruction of IR 655 'marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen just four weeks earlier.'

Everyone makes mistakes but some mistakes are more deadly than others. Believe what you will about what the Captain's true intentions were. However suggestions that Iran was somehow to blame for 'initiating combat' or flying the aircraft in 'that zone' - a path which IR 655 took from Bandar Abbas to Dubai every single day - or to suggest that the transponder was not working, or to suggest that the A300 was using a code normally reserved for F-14s, or that the pilot was on a suicide mission, or that the plane was descending when it was actually climbing - all these disgusting accusations have been made and they have been proven false. Continued attempts at a cover up disgrace history and dishonour the innocent people who fell burning from the sky to their deaths.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
Blame the Iranians for initiating combat and not warning one of their own airliners to stay out of the area.

No comment.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: HomaDreaming
Posted 2008-07-04 08:56:52 and read 4689 times.



Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 9):

No body is bashing the United States, however last time I checked we have the right to express disappointment in how this mistake happened, and how it was treated by the US government. Im sure the people who lost their loved ones, and the world started asking questions after the state of deep shock subsided. The facts will forever remain, and nothing will change them, Vinncenes shot down a commercial jetliner carrying 290 people. How is that bashing the USA?

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it" Mark Twain

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Sandyb123
Posted 2008-07-04 09:07:26 and read 4671 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
In what way was it "illegally" shot down? It entered a combat zone (initiated by the Iranians) and the Vincennes did everything required of it under both the law and military regs to contact the plane.

Hot-headed American arrogance. Shoot first, ask questions later. Obviously you are a Space Cadet.

If you actually read the facts, you'll read that the American warship didn't have the equipment necessary to contact the plane. Also, the lighting on the ship was so bad they couldn't read the flight plans that where provided.

The American warship also entered Iranian waters during the events.

RIP

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: VANGUARD737
Posted 2008-07-04 09:13:52 and read 4664 times.



Quoting HomaDreaming (Reply 17):
The facts will forever remain, and nothing will change them, Vinncenes shot down a commercial jetliner carrying 290 people. How is that bashing the USA?

I never claimed this accident to be closed for discussion. Nor did I ever say I blindly follow all policies / happenings of my country.

I was merely referring to the very likely possibility that many on this forum wouldn't even make posts in honor of the memory of these people - but rather simply talk about how evil the USA is and how Americans love to kill little babies and grandmothers and drink blood etc...

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2008-07-05 03:39:33 and read 4499 times.

No one said that Americans drink blood.

However, if your equipment can not tell an A300 which is climbing from an F14 in attack mode they you might as well revert to the mk 1 eyeball.

Also my understanding is that the A300 was in a recognised flight corridor. If you sit in a flight corridor then planes are going to come straight towards you.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-07-05 06:45:59 and read 4437 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 14):
The simple facts are, the most sophisticated vessel in the US Navy's fleet at that time (or more correctly, the men on board) was not able to tell the difference between a climbing A300 and an F-14 in attack mode.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 20):
However, if your equipment can not tell an A300 which is climbing from an F14 in attack mode they you might as well revert to the mk 1 eyeball.

The equipment relies on the transponders. The skin paint difference on radar between an F-14 with external weapons and an A300 is not much different. As also noted in the reports, because more than one ship identified the aircraft, two different track numbers were assigned, one of which the computers changed to another aircraft without the crew of the Vincennes knowing.

Using proper EMI discipline, any halfway competent military organization can spoof a civilian passenger aircraft on their military aircraft.

When an aircraft is flying toward your ship, you have to make the best judgement you can given the situation - and there is more factual information on this thread, and more BS, than the ship CO had to make his decision.

The Aegis system was fairly new at the time. Not only were the crewmen operating gear less than optimally experienced, the officers who had to analyze the data and made decisions were truly untrained on the good and bad points of such systems. In 1988 is is doubtful the senior officers of the Vincennes even had personal computers.

Their "faith: in the reliability of the system appears to have been very, very high. That no errors could occur.

No electronic based system is ever going to be 100% perfect in data acquisition and analysis. We know that very well from our experience, an opportunity they did not have.

Capt Rogers ability to exercise proper judgement and command responsibility was found lacking by the US Navy. Though he continued in command for a year, and another short shore assigned before earliest possible retirement - the Navy never trusted him with serious responsibility again.

Some may see that as a whitewash. Those who understand the military see his treatment as true condemnation that a 25 year career was a failure.

Was it deliberate - no way.

Was it a stupid mistake which was preventable - yes.

At the end of the day, at the end of the argument - the fact remains - WE killed 274 innocent civilians because WE made a preventable mistake.

I say WE because I was wearing a US Navy uniform in 1988, though I was not in the region, all of us wearing the uniform share the shame and blame for the mistake of our shipmates.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-07-05 07:00:08 and read 4424 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
Was it deliberate - no way.

Agreed. AFAIK, only the Iranians is full "war mode" have ever claimed this.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
Was it a stupid mistake which was preventable - yes.

Sadly true.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
At the end of the day, at the end of the argument - the fact remains - WE killed 274 innocent civilians because WE made a preventable mistake.

Credit to you for your honesty.  thumbsup 

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Sprout5199
Posted 2008-07-05 07:56:18 and read 4397 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
Capt Rogers ability to exercise proper judgement and command responsibility was found lacking by the US Navy.

If this was true, he would have been relieved on the spot. He just did not make the jump from Capt to RADM(Lower Half), same as the CO of the Roberts.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
At the end of the day, at the end of the argument - the fact remains - WE killed 274 innocent civilians because WE made a preventable mistake.

This is true, however, any CO would have made the same mistake, given the same info.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
I say WE because I was wearing a US Navy uniform in 1988, though I was not in the region, all of us wearing the uniform share the shame and blame for the mistake of our shipmates.

Don't include me in that, I was there in 1987, I saw what happens when you think an aircraft won't attack you(I outchopped with the USS Stark(FFG-31), I was onboard the USS Flatley(FFG-21))

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 18):
If you actually read the facts, you'll read that the American warship didn't have the equipment necessary to contact the plane. Also, the lighting on the ship was so bad they couldn't read the flight plans that where provided.

I don't know where you got this "info" BUT IT IS WRONG. They tried to contact them on the guard freq(121.5), other aircraft and ships heard them. As for the lighting????? WTF Have you ever been inside a CIC?

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 18):
The American warship also entered Iranian waters during the events.

And that had nothing to do with the shoot down.


This thread needs to be locked, too many half truths, lies, and all that will happen is bad blood.

Dan in Jupiter

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: 4everRC
Posted 2008-07-05 09:25:57 and read 4352 times.



Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 9):
this post really should be better-monitored or just simply deleted

Agreed. I think this thread was started to remember the people that were lost - can we get it back to that or suggest deletion.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Sandyb123
Posted 2008-07-05 09:30:29 and read 4343 times.



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 23):
I don't know where you got this "info" BUT IT IS WRONG. They tried to contact them on the guard freq(121.5), other aircraft and ships heard them. As for the lighting????? WTF Have you ever been inside a CIC?

I referenced the Wikipedia article (which I realise might not be 100% accurate)

Quoting wikipedia:
According to the U.S. Navy investigation the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency.



Quoting wikipedia:
The CIC was also very dark, and the few lights that it did have flickered every time the Vincennes fired at the speedboats. This was of special concern to Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who first picked up Flight 655 on radar and thought that it might be a commercial aircraft. As he was searching in the Navy's listing of commercial flights, he apparently missed Flight 655 because it was so dark.

No I haven't been in a CIC, thank god.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-07-05 09:38:01 and read 4418 times.



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 23):
I don't know where you got this "info" BUT IT IS WRONG.

According to the U.S. Navy investigation, the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 23):
They tried to contact them on the guard freq(121.5), other aircraft and ships heard them.

They only used this frequency three times, calling "Unidentified Iranian aircraft". Why would you expect the crew of IR655 to respond? They were in communication with ATC and sqawking their correct ident (6760). They had zero reason to suspect their were "unidentified".

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 23):
He just did not make the jump from Capt to RADM

He was widely characterised by his peers as being over-aggresive and somebody who was always looking for a fight.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-07-05 10:02:32 and read 4387 times.

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 18):
Hot-headed American arrogance. Shoot first, ask questions later

Can the Euro a.net members get through just one day with some degree of America bashing. I doubt it.

What an awful day that was. But lets be real, this is a two way street, the goverment of Iran and organizations it sponsers has terrorized, kidnapped and killed plenty of U.S. citizens. Two wrongs do not make a right and hopefully we learn from our mistakes.

Just curious did the tax payers of USSR/Russia pay the families on those on KL007 for their loss?

[Edited 2008-07-05 10:21:04]

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-07-05 10:04:28 and read 4384 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Over 20 civilian airliners have been shot down since the 1950s killing approximately 1400 passengers and crew.

Interesting fact. Is there a list by incident?

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2008-07-05 10:16:18 and read 4367 times.



Quoting 4everRC (Reply 24):
Agreed. I think this thread was started to remember the people that were lost - can we get it back to that or suggest deletion.

Agree!

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: HomaDreaming
Posted 2008-07-05 10:56:25 and read 4312 times.



Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 27):

No doubt the Iranian government is not the most democratic system on earth, in fact one of the least and they have done many things that can be questioned however I dont understand how that is relevant to flight 655 being shot down by an American ship by mistake...

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 18):

there are 300 million people in America, some arrogant, some not, it is not justified to label an entire nation as arrogant...Its not fair to use that term just because somebody throws an idiotic comment around and happens to be an American. There are hot-headed, arrogant, extremist, plain old idiots everywhere...Im sure Europe got a few of them too  Wink

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 21):
At the end of the day, at the end of the argument - the fact remains - WE killed 274 innocent civilians because WE made a preventable mistake.

Thank you for bringing the human element back to the thread, Its not all politics, Sometimes its human tragedy and at those times its important to admit to mistakes, perhaps make sure we learn and try hard not to let it happens again.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Sprout5199
Posted 2008-07-05 10:58:59 and read 4310 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 26):
According to the U.S. Navy investigation, the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency.

I was on a much smaller, less capabile, older ship and we had the abilty to xmit/rec on civil freqs(I was an Electronics Tech and maintained all the comm gear.) We hardly ever switched to a civil freq, we just monitored guard.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 26):
They only used this frequency three times, calling "Unidentified Iranian aircraft". Why would you expect the crew of IR655 to respond? They were in communication with ATC and sqawking their correct ident (6760). They had zero reason to suspect their were "unidentified".

Just like the crew of the Vincennes no reason to suspect that the aircraft was an airliner, from the info they had. When the Capt asked about track 4474(the old track #) he got info that said it was decreasing altitude from 10,000 ft to 7,500 ft and increasing speed to 500 knts. Four different people aboard the Vincennes read this(two with combat experience from Vietnam).

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 25):
Quoting wikipedia:
The CIC was also very dark, and the few lights that it did have flickered every time the Vincennes fired at the speedboats. This was of special concern to Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who first picked up Flight 655 on radar and thought that it might be a commercial aircraft. As he was searching in the Navy's listing of commercial flights, he apparently missed Flight 655 because it was so dark.

No I haven't been in a CIC, thank god.

Well I have, and each console has a light above them that you can control(and switch from red to white.) This is so you can look up codes and such. If you stand watch on a console for any legnth of time you get use to the lighting conditions, it is dark so there are no glare spots on the screen. To "blame" the darkness for the reason he missed it is stupid, he might have missed to being busy, or distracted due to battle, but I doubt due to darkness. Also, IR655 took off nearly a 1/2 late, so even spotted IR655 on the list, it wouldnt have corsponded to the time.

If people here want to learn about it and what was going on in the Gulf read Inside the Danger Zone by Harold Wise.

Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 18):
Hot-headed American arrogance. Shoot first, ask questions later.

The US tried to ask questions first but 37 sailors on the Stark paid with their lives. No Capt in the gulf was going to let that happen again.

Dan in Jupiter

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Bmacleod
Posted 2008-07-05 11:25:05 and read 4277 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4):
and the Vincennes did everything required of it under both the law and military regs to contact the plane. It's a sad story, and certainly I'd agree that it was one of America's darkest hours, but not one you can blame on the US military.

I watched "Mayday" on Discovery channel and it pointed out that one of the Vincennes crewman seemed to become paranoid saying the A300 was descending when it was in fact climbing. It was this action that may have helped USS Vincennes Captain Rogers to give the OK for shootdown.

It also said that the transponder code was a military navy code not recognized by Iran Air's crew and it was theorized that's why they did not respond.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2008-07-05 14:25:57 and read 4184 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
Funny to see that when the Soviet Union shoot down a Korean B747, it is an unacceptable and "terrible act of Barbarism", but when the U.S shoot down an Iranian Airbus, it's "oooops !!! Sorry ! bad mistake".

You do realize that in one case a Soviet pilot knowingly identified an aircraft visually, and in another the crew of an American ship made a tragic error based on strictly electronic data interpretation, right? And you don't see a difference?

Quoting GoDIA (Reply 8):
I really HATE to point out the obvious, but the A300 was identified ELECTRONICALLY, by the Vincennes' Aegis radar system--it was NOT a visual error.

Thank you.

Quoting GoDIA (Reply 8):
It was a mistake, and a tragic one...but NOT a deliberate attempt to shoot down a defenseless airliner.

Again, thank you.

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Sandyb123
Posted 2008-07-05 14:41:09 and read 4155 times.

Ok, listen, I am not in for USA bashing or anything else, infact I love the fact that A.net is a global resource with global contributors. But it is healthy to discuss things that do not lie well in history and I would happily concede that Scotland / Uk / Europe have made some big mistakes in the past also.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-07-05 18:54:09 and read 4089 times.



Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 28):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Over 20 civilian airliners have been shot down since the 1950s killing approximately 1400 passengers and crew.

Interesting fact. Is there a list by incident?

You'll find them in this 3-page list of transport-category aircraft that were shot down, although this list also includes many non-airline aircraft (military transports etc.)
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...blist.php?Event=SED&lang=en&page=1

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-07-05 20:40:44 and read 4049 times.



Quoting HomaDreaming (Reply 30):
No doubt the Iranian government is not the most democratic system on earth, in fact one of the least and they have done many things that can be questioned however I dont understand how that is relevant to flight 655 being shot down by an American ship by mistake...

OK.. you need to re read my post... focus on the "two wrongs dont make a right" then maybe you will understand....

Topic: RE: The 20th Anniversary Of IR655 Crash
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2008-07-05 20:42:53 and read 4044 times.

Does anyone know if Russia paid the families of KL007 after they shot it down?


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