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Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-07-04 01:21:10 and read 13710 times.

Well if things will not get better soon, and I do me soon, F9 will liquadate operations, CEO tell customers to avoid advanced bookings.

http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=8619506

Quote:

"We have substantial liquidity needs in the operation of our business and face significant liquidity challenges due to historically high aircraft fuel prices, low passenger yields, credit card processor holdbacks and cash reserves and other cost pressures. Accordingly, we believe that our cash and cash equivalents and short-term investments will 12 remain under pressure during 2008 and thereafter. We are uncertain we will be able to obtain debtor in possession financing during our Chapter 11 proceedings. Accordingly, as we continue to seek debtor in possession financing, we will also attempt to address our liquidity concerns through the sale of aircraft and other assets, the sale and leaseback of aircraft and other assets, rejection of Republic Airlines contract, negotiations with our credit card processors and other liquidity enhancement opportunities. We cannot guarantee that these efforts to raise cash and improve our liquidity will be successful, in which case we could be forced to discontinue our operations."

Avoid Advanced Bookings on F9

For everyone here that knows anyone who has tickets on F9 please tell them to be very careful or search elsewhere.

[Edited 2008-07-04 01:21:45]

[Edited 2008-07-04 01:22:39]

[Edited 2008-07-04 01:43:47]

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-07-04 01:32:31 and read 13658 times.

This is not a good title for the thread by any means.

Statements like this are common when corporations enter bankruptcy protection. They are just stating the risks involved. Nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: PlaneHunter
Posted 2008-07-04 01:32:50 and read 13655 times.



Quoting Caribbean484 (Thread starter):
For everyone here that knows anyone who has tickets on F9 please tell them to be very careful or search elsewhere.

No need for a mass hysteria. In today's environment numerous carriers could fail, including those who haven't been in the media focus as much as F9.

I'd still book a flight on F9 and wouldn't act as some people try to tell me in the media. There are always risks in life, we have to deal with it.


PH

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: The777Man
Posted 2008-07-04 01:43:34 and read 13613 times.

I think this is a very valid thread; Chapter 11 is NOT the place to be now with the price of oil going up. Frontier will have a very hard time to find financing to get them thru this.

More carriers would probably like to have filed Chapter 11 (AA) but they know that if they file, they will have a very tough time getting out, much more so now than when UA, DL and NW were in Chapter 11.

I wish Frontier the best of luck though.

The777Man

[Edited 2008-07-04 01:54:20]

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-07-04 01:46:43 and read 13589 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
This is not a good title for the thread by any means.

Statements like this are common when corporations enter bankruptcy protection. They are just stating the risks involved. Nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever.

I don't know how to really say it again.

Well like everyone else F9 is in a very troubling position with their monting looses.

All the best to them and to the hard working employees of F9.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Sldispatcher
Posted 2008-07-04 02:15:53 and read 13450 times.

Doing my part....booked 4 tickets last month for travel this weekend. I'm not going to let them go down without contributing to their survival first.

Some people on here are the same ones who like to gooseneck at a car wreck scene hoping to see carnage.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2008-07-04 02:15:52 and read 13448 times.

I really hope they find help, soon. I don't want to see this great airline gone.  Sad

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-07-04 02:21:23 and read 13410 times.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 3):
I think this is a very valid thread

It might be valid but the title might be misleading to some. It indicates F9 going "Tits Up" is an imminent possibility. Clearly it is IF things don't work out as planned, but really, who doesn't know that already? It's not brain surgery to assume that an airline in Ch.11 has a chance of going under...just like it has a chance to successfully reorganize. IMO, the entire article from krdo.com is a pretty poor piece of journalism. Perhaps it was a slow news day.

Quoting Sldispatcher (Reply 5):
Some people on here are the same ones who like to gooseneck at a car wreck scene hoping to see carnage.

  

[Edited 2008-07-04 02:23:09]

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2008-07-04 02:23:42 and read 13408 times.



Quoting The777Man (Reply 3):
I think this is a very valid thread; Chapter 11 is NOT the place to be now with the price of oil going up.

Slight correction - Chapter 11 without DIP financing is not the place to be now.

Ordinarily I'd say F9 has as good a shot as anyone at surviving a trip through the bankruptcy courts, but they're flying headlong into a "Perfect Storm" of a struggling economy, increasing competition in their backyard, negative consumer sentiment and of course - crushing oil prices - that all have the earmarks of disaster for them.

Best of luck to my friends at F9. I hope you guys can pull it out.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: ABQ747
Posted 2008-07-04 02:39:53 and read 13349 times.

This is awful news. I flew F9 for the first time last month, and I wasn't too impressed. Still, I hope they survive.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: ScottB
Posted 2008-07-04 02:41:07 and read 13340 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 7):
the entire article from krdo.com is a pretty poor piece of journalism. Perhaps it was a slow news day.

Well, I cannot say that the actual KRDO news story is inaccurate since it basically quotes the company's 10-K filing, but it does fail to recognize that those sorts of statements are commonplace when any company is in bankruptcy reorganization. Heck, even Southwest (the most financially solid U.S. carrier) will reference "material adverse affects" possible due to certain negative outcomes in the business. In fairness, they do give Frontier's spokesperson a reasonable amount of space to clarify what's being said in the SEC filing.

The point of it all being: the company is obligated to make those kinds of statements in their SEC filings. They do have a responsibility to warn potential investors of the very real risks inherent in the business. But that doesn't mean that the outcomes of which they warn are likely; just that they are possible.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
This is not a good title for the thread by any means.

I have a beef with the title of this thread in that it's not clear that the warning about Frontier closing is being made by a travel agency CEO, not the company's CEO.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-07-04 02:55:08 and read 13292 times.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
Well, I cannot say that the actual KRDO news story is inaccurate since it basically quotes the company's 10-K filing, but it does fail to recognize that those sorts of statements are commonplace when any company is in bankruptcy reorganization.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. It makes it seem as if this is something unique to F9's situation.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: BooDog
Posted 2008-07-04 03:05:46 and read 13237 times.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
I have a beef with the title of this thread in that it's not clear that the warning about Frontier closing is being made by a travel agency CEO, not the company's CEO.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Carribean 484 appears to be doin' a little pot stirrin'. Who on here hasn't done it?  Smile  stirthepot 

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Avek00
Posted 2008-07-04 03:23:09 and read 13166 times.



Quoting Sldispatcher (Reply 5):
Some people on here are the same ones who like to gooseneck at a car wreck scene hoping to see carnage.

....and others fail to notice obvious signs that an airline is in severe economic danger, and set themselves up for difficulties in their travel plans by buying tickets on a virtually-defunct airline despite having access to good information via a.net and elsewhere. What's your point?

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Azstar
Posted 2008-07-04 03:25:32 and read 13158 times.

This is NOT the CEO of Frontier saying this. It's the CEO of a travel agency. It's his opinion, and nothing more!!

[Edited 2008-07-04 03:26:48]

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Jetdeltamsy
Posted 2008-07-04 03:39:34 and read 13084 times.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
Statements like this are common when corporations enter bankruptcy protection

I totally disagree with your comment.

Airlines that enter bankruptcy always paint a rosey picture that things will continue as normal.

I think this is a very ominous sign for Frontier. Most airlines are able to arrange DIP before they file bankruptcy. The fact that Frontier has been unable to attract the financing puts a very dark cloud over the whole operation.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-07-04 04:04:34 and read 12983 times.



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 15):
Most airlines are able to arrange DIP before they file bankruptcy

and were not facing fuel cost economics 3x-4x what the aircraft were originally designed for.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
The point of it all being: the company is obligated to make those kinds of statements in their SEC filings.

because companies in the past did not........they did not want to 'scare' investors and then subsequently ceased operations with 'no notice'.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2008-07-04 04:13:14 and read 12954 times.

The problem with such negative statements is that it can ruin customer confidence. That is critical for consumer businesses like airlines. Yes, in recent years US SEC rules require companies to cover all possible risks, but as in this case such statements can bring about failure. I don't want to see any more airline failures including F9, but the circumstances of our time is leading even the biggest of companies to possible failure.

Topic: Travel Company: Frontier Airlines May Be Forced To Close
Username: Petteri
Posted 2008-07-04 04:36:14 and read 12843 times.

This thread should either be re-named or locked. This statement from a travel agent CEO was discussed in the first thread about F9's Chp. 11 filing.

As to DIP financing Frontier is probably waiting for the best deal to present itself. Why take on the restrictions that DIP financing brings with it if you can manage day to day operations without it for the time being?

On a lighter note, Frontier is now serving fresh food on-board. Has anyone tried any yet?  Wink

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: DTWAGENT
Posted 2008-07-04 07:53:52 and read 12471 times.

I hope they can hang in there. But as a travel agent. I would have a hard time putting my clients on this air carrier becuase of the filing statement. But, like I said I hope they can keep on hanging in their. I have away thought it was not a good idea for them to start up a new airline in a strong UA airport. I would like to know why they chose DIA to begin with to start F9?

chuck

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2008-07-04 08:28:41 and read 12351 times.

So they guy quotes the F9 10K's and says that Southwest "will continue" to eat into F9's marketshare and predicts the demise of Frontier....jackass.

Things aren't very rosy at F9 right now and they are definitely on the ropes, but if one would look at the facts, UA is the one in that exact situation and using his faulty reasoning they should be the one people should avoid booking on.

Frontier has maintained their marketshare and seen a modest increase in yield since WN entered the market. UA is the one with the eroding marketshare.

Don't get me wrong, Frontier isn't doing so hot and may not be around this time next year, but that can be said of just about any airline right now, especially with oil continuing its climb.

Checko

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2008-07-04 09:13:17 and read 11928 times.



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 19):
I would like to know why they chose DIA to begin with to start F9?

The idea was to fill the void left by Continental when they dehubbed Denver. The problem they have run into is that the definitive leadership by Menke came too late and that combined with the rise of oil has left the company where they are today.

Checko

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2008-07-04 09:54:10 and read 11527 times.

Did anyone read the original post, not the TV story?
http://www.polkmajestic.com/gui/content.asp?w=pages&r=251&pid=125

The Travel CEO also predicts nearly everyone going into BK.

In previous issues we have discussed the weak state of US Airways. Industry experts think AirTran has a chance to visit the bankruptcy courts as well. American, Delta, Northwest, and United could all be in bankruptcy courts if, as we said above, oil prices stay above $120 per barrel. Continental, Southwest, and Alaska appear to be the healthiest today.

That doesn't seem to have been reported.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-07-04 10:17:32 and read 11349 times.



Quoting Caribbean484 (Thread starter):
Well if things will not get better soon, and I do me soon, F9 will liquadate operations, CEO tell customers to avoid advanced bookings.

It would be nice if you would say that the CEO of the Travel company is what your quoting. I was mislead when reading that, and was beyond shook for a second or two. Stir the pot is a good word for it.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 20):
So they guy quotes the F9 10K's and says that Southwest "will continue" to eat into F9's marketshare and predicts the demise of Frontier....jackass.

I assume it must have been a very slow news day. Just like when that jackass brought up the Q400 not having oxygen masks. The media in Colorado really has pushed up against F9 through all these years. But, I bet the reporters in Colorado fly F9 more than you would ever know. It is DEN's hometown airline, which makes me think about other hometown airlines. They seem to get the short end of the local press too.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2008-07-04 10:40:00 and read 11119 times.

I would book with F9 but I would also buy insurance just in case there is a problem and therefor have a back up for my flight.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Coa747
Posted 2008-07-04 11:19:41 and read 10839 times.

The over-riding problem I see is the tight credit market right now. Yes oil prices are killing everyone but when you file for bankruptcy you need backing to exit and given the state of affairs including the price of oil there aren't a lot of banks willing to take that risk at the moment. But Frontier at least has assets to leverage, unlike United who mortgaged everything that wasn't nailed down to exit their last bankruptcy. I would say that United is in much greater danger of being liquidated should it enter bankruptcy because they have virtually no leverage against the banks.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2008-07-04 11:29:47 and read 10995 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 17):
The problem with such negative statements is that it can ruin customer confidence.

 checkmark  Indeed. You start loosing the confidence of large travel partners like Amex or Carlson, things can very quickly start to spiral down if they actively book away.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2008-07-04 11:41:35 and read 10874 times.

This is perhaps the last nail on the coffin...if the CEO is making those remarks most likely F9 will go out of business soon...what a shame!

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Bruce
Posted 2008-07-04 11:46:13 and read 10836 times.

Check out this quote from consultant Mike Boyd:

Boyd added, "Any airline today is going to have a problem surviving... Not a single one (airplane) was ever designed for $50 a barrel oil let alone $140. So airlines are going to have to materially change how they fly, where they fly and the fares they charge."

WTF? Oil was $50 a barrel 2 years ago and airlines were doing ok, no one complained about it. All the hard times in 2001-2003 were caused by 9/11 and the economy, but things picked up when the economy got rolling in 2004 - airlines were coming out of bk. And oil was $50 a barrel.

bruce

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2008-07-04 11:56:35 and read 10715 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 28):
if the CEO is making those remarks most likely F9 will go out of business soon...what a shame!

It isn't Frontier's CEO, it's the head of a travel agency.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Drgmobile
Posted 2008-07-04 12:19:24 and read 10559 times.

N7371f From United States writes:

Clearly this is the first time you have ever read an annual report filed to the SEC. Otherwise you would know by now that much of the language Frontier used in its report is common vernacular throughout the aviation industry in 10k reports.

I think the item of concern are the bold parts in the following passage, special emphasis on the underlined portion.

"We have substantial liquidity needs in the operation of our business and face significant liquidity challenges due to historically high aircraft fuel prices, low passenger yields, credit card processor holdbacks and cash reserves and other cost pressures. Accordingly, we believe that our cash and cash equivalents and short-term investments will remain under pressure during 2008 and thereafter. We are uncertain we will be able to obtain debtor in possession financing during our Chapter 11 proceedings. Accordingly, as we continue to seek debtor in possession financing, we will also attempt to address our liquidity concerns through the sale of aircraft and other assets, the sale and leaseback of aircraft and other assets, rejection of Republic Airlines contract, negotiations with our credit card processors and other liquidity enhancement opportunities. We cannot guarantee that these efforts to raise cash and improve our liquidity will be successful, in which case we could be forced to discontinue our operations."

Contrast this with a United comment of caution during the early part of its reorg 10K filing:

Although the Company expects to file a plan of reorganization that provides for its emergence from bankruptcy as a going concern, there can be no assurance at this time that a plan of reorganization will be confirmed by the Bankruptcy Court, or that any such plan will be implemented successfully.

Frontier's ability to reorganize successfully, as we all hope it does, depends on it having the cash to continue operations. Since the company's cash position is tenuous, DIP financing is key. I've read a few 10-K reports of my own and I find the language is worth noting, but if there are other examples of carriers warning that they might not be able to obtain DIP financing and then later emerging from bankruptcy, please share them.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-07-04 12:21:57 and read 10547 times.

If it makes anyone feel more comfortable, they said the same thing about UA, DL, NW, and US during its bankruptcy.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 30):
It isn't Frontier's CEO, it's the head of a travel agency.

And who would be comfortable with the travel agency these days. They are a dying breed, sadly. There is not much money in that anymore, and commissions are being cut everywhere.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2008-07-04 12:57:07 and read 10208 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 32):
nd who would be comfortable with the travel agency these days. They are a dying breed, sadly. There is not much money in that anymore, and commissions are being cut everywhere.

Good ones still do well, its like real estate though you can't just wait for people to walk through the door.

I've used my TA for over 20 years, and still do for some bookings. She continues to do well and expanded her agency last year and may be close to adding another agent.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Type-Rated
Posted 2008-07-04 14:46:31 and read 9372 times.



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 29):
It isn't Frontier's CEO, it's the head of a travel agency.

Just another embittered travel agent still ticked off that his commissions disappeared.
While Frontier may be having problems now, I have confidence in them. The people of Denver are quite proud of them. I am even going to book them for my holiday travel this year!

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Asuflyer05
Posted 2008-07-04 16:37:02 and read 8731 times.

They'll be gone come September.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Luv2cattlecall
Posted 2008-07-04 17:47:01 and read 8343 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 27):
This is perhaps the last nail on the coffin...if the CEO is making those remarks most likely F9 will go out of business soon...what a shame!

That's what I was mislead into thinking as well...turns out it was the Travel Agency's CEO...

Quoting Bruce (Reply 28):
Boyd added, "Any airline today is going to have a problem surviving... Not a single one (airplane) was ever designed for $50 a barrel oil let alone $140. So airlines are going to have to materially change how they fly, where they fly and the fares they charge."

WTF? Oil was $50 a barrel 2 years ago and airlines were doing ok, no one complained about it. All the hard times in 2001-2003 were caused by 9/11 and the economy, but things picked up when the economy got rolling in 2004 - airlines were coming out of bk. And oil was $50 a barrel.

bruce

Really, Boyd? I find that airplanes burn $140/barrel oil just the same as they do $50/barrel oil...no engine modifications necessary. It has everything to do with the business/yield management behind how those aircraft are used. Heck, G4 does ok with oil at what it is and they have some of the oldest aircraft out there...

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Syncmaster
Posted 2008-07-04 18:02:22 and read 8268 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 23):
It is DEN's hometown airline, which makes me think about other hometown airlines. They seem to get the short end of the local press too.

This is very true, ATA never seemed to be on very good terms with the local IND press either. AA doesn't seem to be with DFW, etc, etc.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2008-07-04 18:28:43 and read 8105 times.



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 34):
They'll be gone come September.

I'm glad you have the ability to accurately predict the future. Did you play the psychic in Pee Wee's Big Adventure by any chance? You must also think there's a basement in the Alamo.

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: DeltaGuy767
Posted 2008-07-04 19:27:40 and read 7759 times.

F9 is certainly facing an uphill battle if they haven't reached at least any tentative deals for DIP financing. In today's current marketplace potential investors aren't going to dole out the same amounts of cash they did for DL/UA/NW simply because the economics of the airline industry have changed over the past 12-18 months. Ignoring fuel prices for a minute, F9 simply does not have the assets in terms of a substantial collateral package for any potential investor vs. DL or UA. DL at the time of its filing for BK owned 359 airframes compared to only 62 (owned and leased, no differential data) for F9. Also this is completely discounting the condition of the credit markets, and where DL and UA could petition larger institutions like GE Capital, J.P. Morgan, Citi, and AMEX to fork over some $$ for financing, those institutions are experiencing record write-downs on unsecured debt. If F9 is going to enter BK, under present conditions, it is my PROFESSIONAL OPINION that F9 will liquidate. I believe I am qualified to make this assessment (see my occupation if you doubt me) and would be happy to debate anyone regarding this issue. I hope that no airline HAS to liquidate, because of the number of employees that will be without paychecks, and families in dire situations as a result. It is however inevitable that several airlines will fail before the storm subsides.

Regards from BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767

P.S. Remember the fundamental rule of Microeconomics, the Market will always return to Equilibrium in the Long-Run.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: SkyguyB727
Posted 2008-07-04 20:30:48 and read 7350 times.



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 19):
I would like to know why they chose DIA to begin with to start F9?

Well, COS didn't work out for Western Pacific. There aren't any other big airports in Colorado that I know of.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: NZblue
Posted 2008-07-04 22:22:58 and read 6810 times.

What an absolute, terrible shame and a total slap in the face to passengers and employees to predict the end of Frontier Airlines, the end of thousands upon thousands of jobs, and what would be a blow to the local Denver and Colorado economy while we're trying our hardest to remain afloat. What's worse is that this local travel agency should slam Denver's hometown carrier in such a way when this community strives to promote and patronise local Colorado businesses, including Frontier. If this agency truly hoped for the best for us as stated, they wouldn't be predicting and promoting the worst, and that in itself is a terrible contradiction.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Babybus
Posted 2008-07-04 22:25:51 and read 6800 times.

We've been waiting over 3 years now for BMI to fold and look at that, there it is still flying away against all the odds.

I still wouldn't buy a ticket on it though.  Wink

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2008-07-04 23:05:26 and read 6604 times.



Quoting NZblue (Reply 40):
What an absolute, terrible shame and a total slap in the face to passengers and employees to predict the end of Frontier Airlines, the end of thousands upon thousands of jobs, and what would be a blow to the local Denver and Colorado economy while we're trying our hardest to remain afloat. What's worse is that this local travel agency should slam Denver's hometown carrier in such a way when this community strives to promote and patronise local Colorado businesses, including Frontier. If this agency truly hoped for the best for us as stated, they wouldn't be predicting and promoting the worst, and that in itself is a terrible contradiction.

Very well said NZblue! I have to agree with every letter you typed above. Maybe F9 could do the agency a favor, and decrease their commissions. Show them a little appreciation for their bs 5 seconds of fame. Welcome to my RU list!

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-07-04 23:14:49 and read 6537 times.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 38):

This is a very well done post nice analysis.

Quoting NZblue (Reply 40):
What an absolute, terrible shame and a total slap in the face to passengers and employees to predict the end of Frontier Airlines, the end of thousands upon thousands of jobs, and what would be a blow to the local Denver and Colorado economy while we're trying our hardest to remain afloat. What's worse is that this local travel agency should slam Denver's hometown carrier in such a way when this community strives to promote and patronise local Colorado businesses, including Frontier. If this agency truly hoped for the best for us as stated, they wouldn't be predicting and promoting the worst, and that in itself is a terrible contradiction

While many here will not agree with the guy, he has every right to say what he said, you don't have to respect what he said but he has the right to his own opinion.
I am not pro or against F9, its their employees that I care for, but what ever happans to the airline, only time will tell.
Quite frankly F9 cannot do anything to the guy because its of his own opinion and some here just needs to accept that.
You don't have to book at his agency but he has EVERY RIGHT to say what he thinks, maybe he is telling his customers to be careful with whats happening now in the industry and the position F9 is in, who knows.

[Edited 2008-07-04 23:46:33]

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2008-07-04 23:33:30 and read 6466 times.



Quoting Babybus (Reply 41):
We've been waiting over 3 years now for BMI to fold and look at that, there it is still flying away against all the odds.

And they have been bought by LH. Sorry to burst your bubble there. Although LH is a great airline and the culture BD had will still remain.

With the DNC coming to Denver I'm sure F9 will see a lot of service then. High fuel prices are causing everyone problems and I wonder if the Democrats will use F9 as an example to garner more votes in Colorado.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: FrmrCAPCADET
Posted 2008-07-04 23:42:14 and read 6420 times.

I would expect a travel agency booking for me, to warn me about any airline they though may not be functioning at the time my flights were scheduled. When it comes to this point it is indeed a cruel world, and no right minded person takes any comfort in this. My one experience with Frontier was entirely pleasant, and I wish them well, but would I book a critically important flight for late this fall.........

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Eghansen
Posted 2008-07-05 00:03:35 and read 6330 times.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
Well, I cannot say that the actual KRDO news story is inaccurate since it basically quotes the company's 10-K filing, but it does fail to recognize that those sorts of statements are commonplace when any company is in bankruptcy reorganization. Heck, even Southwest (the most financially solid U.S. carrier) will reference "material adverse affects" possible due to certain negative outcomes in the business. In fairness, they do give Frontier's spokesperson a reasonable amount of space to clarify what's being said in the SEC filing.

This is really all about nothing. If you look up the 10-K filings for United, American, Delta and US Air, you will find the same kind of language. This is called Full Disclosure. 10-K filings are routinely filled with things that "could happen or might happen."

The following is from AMR Corps most recent 10-K filing:

The Company’s ability to become consistently profitable and its ability to continue to fund its obligations on an ongoing basis will depend on a number of factors, many of which are largely beyond the Company’s control. Certain risk factors that affect the Company’s business and financial results are referred to under “Forward-Looking Information” above and are discussed in the Risk Factors listed in Item 1A (on pages 11-17) in the 2007 Form 10-K. In addition, four of the Company’s largest domestic competitors and several smaller carriers have filed for bankruptcy in the last several years and have used this process to significantly reduce contractual labor and other costs. In order to remain competitive and to improve its financial condition, the Company must continue to take steps to generate additional revenues and to reduce its costs. Although the Company has a number of initiatives underway to address its cost and revenue challenges, the ultimate success of these initiatives is not known at this time and cannot be assured.

Although not quite as bleak as Frontier since AMR is not in Chapter 11 yet, it is typical of the inherent gloominess of 10-K filings. In fact, this filing gives the impression that AMR feels that it is worse off since it has not used Chapter 11 to reduce costs.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2008-07-05 09:21:31 and read 5821 times.



Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 38):
If F9 is going to enter BK, under present conditions, it is my PROFESSIONAL OPINION that F9 will liquidate

Don't mean to state the obvious, but F9 is already in Chapter 11 BK protection.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: AirFRNT
Posted 2008-07-05 10:21:14 and read 5762 times.



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 15):

Airlines that enter bankruptcy always paint a rosey picture that things will continue as normal.

Untrue. Go back and actually read the legal documentation at the time.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 44):

With the DNC coming to Denver I'm sure F9 will see a lot of service then. High fuel prices are causing everyone problems and I wonder if the Democrats will use F9 as an example to garner more votes in Colorado.

Given that part of F9's problem is that they have a openly hostile Denver Mayor, and Denver Governor who appear to be in UA and WN's pocket respectively, I don't think the DNC will do them any favors.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Drgmobile
Posted 2008-07-07 05:23:13 and read 5311 times.

Eghansen

Although not quite as bleak as Frontier since AMR is not in Chapter 11 yet, it is typical of the inherent gloominess of 10-K filings. In fact, this filing gives the impression that AMR feels that it is worse off since it has not used Chapter 11 to reduce costs.


There is a huge difference between the Frontier 10K filing and the one from AMR that you provided. Bleak business conditions are one thing. Disclosing that you are not sure if you will be able to get the cash required to keep the doors open is something else entirely.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2008-07-07 06:28:17 and read 5157 times.

Carabe484: As much as I respect your right to post whatever you feel is necessary, this thread is misleading and rather Chicken Little-esque. So much for your credibility. Are there negative respectability points that can be awarded?

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-07-07 06:54:11 and read 5102 times.



Quoting Alphascan (Reply 50):
Carabe484: As much as I respect your right to post whatever you feel is necessary, this thread is misleading and rather Chicken Little-esque. So much for your credibility. Are there negative respectability points that can be awarded?

How is it misleading? It said travelcompany, I also posted the airline's SEC 10k report from a news source, F9 said it themselves that they face a serious liquidity problem. The travel CEO said that IHO he would not recommend people to book flights with the airline in the winter.

If you have a problem here with many discussing F9 and its future then don't look at the thread or don't post. It is becoming a point now that people can't even mention F9 without people like you saying that we are only adding bad press to the airline.
As I have said before I am neither for nor against F9, so if you don't like it then don't post.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2008-07-07 07:41:54 and read 4975 times.

How is it misleading?

First, you predict liquidation "soon if things don't get better." Neither of the articles back that statement up.

- The 10-K paints a worst-case scenario which FRNT has been doing with every 10-K for years and years under the "risks" section of each report. They have never candy-coated the most dire possibility for the future. Had you any credibility to be giving the board advice on who to buy tickets from, surely you would know this.

- The Polk newsletter (written by a business expert?, woops no! a travel order taker) is debunked in the same article you offer as evidence by a reknowned industry expert, which you conveniently leave out of your 'sky is falling" post. Even without the Boyd comments, Polk talks about Southwest's "continuing to eat into Frontier's market share." Um, Caribe, Frontier's market share at DEN is higher today than the day before Southwest came to Denver. So much for Mr. Polk's expertise. Then Polk says, "Although Frontier's cash position is not decreasing; they are cutting capacity by 17 percent this fall. This will help the carrier survive the slower fall months before the holiday rush hits..." So now they will survive? Mr. Polk speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Again NOT mentioned by you in your post.

- You just wrote, " Well if things will not get better soon, and I do me soon, F9 will liquadate operations, CEO tell customers to avoid advanced bookings. No where do you mention Polk Travel CEO. But you do mention Frontier. That makes a sane reader think it was the Frontier CEO saying to avoid advance bookings on Frontier. That is misleading at best. I can think of even more accurate terms to describe it.

-Then you end with this: "For everyone here that knows anyone who has tickets on F9 please tell them to be very careful or search elsewhere.

Seems to me you have an alterior motive. Boyd is right. Check out a person's credibility before you believe what they say. I did. Your credibility to give a balanced picture is shot.

Topic: RE: Travel Company:
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2008-07-07 08:23:06 and read 4879 times.



Quoting Alphascan (Reply 52):
First, you predict liquidation "soon if things don't get better." Neither of the articles back that statement up.

My statement and mines alone, if you have a problem go solve it.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 52):
- The 10-K paints a worst-case scenario which FRNT has been doing with every 10-K for years and years under the "risks" section of each report. They have never candy-coated the most dire possibility for the future. Had you any credibility to be giving the board advice on who to buy tickets from, surely you would know this.

It was their quoting alone, deal with it.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 52):
You just wrote, " Well if things will not get better soon, and I do me soon, F9 will liquadate operations, CEO tell customers to avoid advanced bookings. No where do you mention Polk Travel CEO. But you do mention Frontier. That makes a sane reader think it was the Frontier CEO saying to avoid advance bookings on Frontier. That is misleading at best. I can think of even more accurate terms to describe it.

I was corrected in the earlier post and made the changes, could not edit because the time elapsed.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 52):
-Then you end with this: "For everyone here that knows anyone
who has tickets on F9 please tell them to be very careful or search elsewhere.

My statement alone and input, again if you have a problem go call Sherlock Holmes and get it solved.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 52):
Seems to me you have an alterior motive. Boyd is right. Check out a person's credibility before you believe what they say. I did. Your credibility to give a balanced picture is shot.

I have no ulterior motive and do not assume on my part, it makes you look as you would seem, silly and very small minded.
I would never intenationally mislead anyone on this forum and again if I have then sorry but these are my opinions.


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