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Topic: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2008-09-17 10:35:38 and read 44190 times.

Hello Guys and Gals:

I was just looking at a photo posted by a fellow A-netter, of a Thomas Cook 767 interior. I could not see the whole cross section of the coach cabin, but I did notice that there were 4 seats in the middle section. A quick check on Thomas Cook's website confirmed that they seat 8 across in coach on their 767s. (Thomas Cook does not seem to be in the SeatGuru radar...)

I admit I am not as much in the loop as many of you here, but I had not heard of this being done in a 767 before.

I have seen threads with lots of opinions about some airlines (KL, EK) going to 10 across on their 777s, and there was a lot of chatter about how cramped that might be, or if extra leg room eases that configuration. But I have never heard of this 767 added seat until now.

Logic would dictate, from a ratio and comfort standpoint, that it's more challenging to add one seat to a row of 7, than it is to add one more seat to a row of nine, as in the case of the 777. I believe I went to Hawaii once on Sun Country, in a DC-10 with 10 across...

Is the 767 layout as 7 particularly generous (it's particular cabin width, divided by 7), thus lending itself to this new arrangement? I know people have preferred the 767 because of all the twin seat options in coach, but I have heard less about typical seat width.

I wonder if, in these troubling times, other airlines could follow suit... It seems a logical step in this climate of drastic reduction of services. Perhaps the traditional 7-across seating in 767s is destined to be reserved for "economy plus?" Nothing surprises me anymore...

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: GT4EZY
Posted 2008-09-17 10:41:01 and read 44166 times.

All UK charter operators have, at some point, had 8 abreast config on their 767's. Only relatively recently has FCA broken the mould. Funnily enough the average charter passenger has never really moaned and groaned about the seat width in the way that they have the seat pitch. Indeed, to be honest it isn't as bad as you might think.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Baexecutive
Posted 2008-09-17 10:42:26 and read 44138 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Thread starter):
I admit I am not as much in the loop as many of you here, but I had not heard of this being done in a 767 before

I flew on a Mytravel 767 which was 8 abreast, was only a 4 hour flight and I paid peanuts for the flight (with my penny pinching ex) so wasn't bothered  Smile

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2008-09-17 10:53:44 and read 44070 times.



Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 2):
I flew on a Mytravel 767 which was 8 abreast, was only a 4 hour flight and I paid peanuts for the flight (with my penny pinching ex) so wasn't bothered Smile



Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 1):
Funnily enough the average charter passenger has never really moaned and groaned about the seat width in the way that they have the seat pitch. Indeed, to be honest it isn't as bad as you might think.

I'm glad the average Joe (a group I am very much part of) can go on a vacation and not pay an arm and a leg for it.

I seem to be in the minority with regard to my comfort preference; I find the softness of a seat (whether or not the seat is a floatation device, for example...) and the width of a seat more important than the legroom, since I endeavor to put my carry-on above me. But, to each his own. And I am 6 ft. Maybe because I often travel alone... so sleeping on someones shoulder is generally not an option...  Wink

Interesting to note that this seems to be an anomaly for British, international LLCs. Since a lot of 767 flights are shorter (in the 4 hour range) - I wonder if the majors are going to notice this opportunity to increase their CASM??

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Danfearn77
Posted 2008-09-17 10:56:25 and read 44041 times.

I flew on a Thomsonfly 767 to the US and it was 8 a breast. Legroom was more of an issue than width!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2008-09-17 10:59:08 and read 44015 times.

BY ( remember them ? ) used to fly from Britain to Australia and New Zealand seasonally with 767s using 8 abreast economy seating - but they used to offer absurdly cheap fares for last minute deals on the backhaul segments ( would you believe NZD 399 - at that time probably around CAD 290.00 for AKL-LGW with 3-4 enroute stops )

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2008-09-17 10:59:42 and read 44020 times.

Britannia Airways (now Thomsonfly) had 8-abreast on its 767-200s in the 1980s, whilst Monarch Airlines has 9-abreast on its A300-605Rs.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Baexecutive
Posted 2008-09-17 10:59:55 and read 44018 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 3):

hey hey, that was then. I travel FIRST/Club now  Big grin

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Frigatebird
Posted 2008-09-17 11:51:56 and read 43808 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Thread starter):
I have seen threads with lots of opinions about some airlines (KL, EK) going to 10 across on their 777s, and there was a lot of chatter about how cramped that might be, or if extra leg room eases that configuration.

I've been on an 8 hour MP flight on the sole 8 abreast 767 they had a few years ago, and also on a 9 hour flight on an AF 77W 10 abreast COI configuration. And I can assure you: the 767 flight was the worst I've ever had! It was so bad, it made me decide never to fly MP again (and with 9 abreast A330's coming for MP, that's not going to change). About every person bumped into my shoulder, and not a single trolley missed me  Angry

Compared with that, the COI 77W was not so bad at all. It wasn't exactly luxurious, but it didn't feel different from sitting in a 747... And at least I could sleep decently in the 77W.

And there were no complaints from fellow Y passengers either on the AF 77W flight about the seats - but I sure wasn't the only one complaining on the MP 767 flight  thumbsdown 

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: B777Neuss
Posted 2008-09-17 12:01:59 and read 43761 times.

And Air Transat A310 and A330 also have 3-3-3.


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Photo © Mario Villalobos




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Photo © Richard Barsby - Aviation Photographer




B777Neuss

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Ncfc99
Posted 2008-09-17 12:01:56 and read 43751 times.

I have flown on a 8 abreast 767 (thonsonfly), a 9 abreast A300 (monarch) and an EK 10 abreast 777. I found all to be fine on the width side of things, but I have never got enough legroom. I realy cannot understand most fo the negative comments that EK and the charter carriers get on here, it is not as bad as made out, IMHO.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Rdwootty
Posted 2008-09-17 12:07:40 and read 43722 times.

The only 767 charter (UK) operator with 7 abreast is FCA and now this is to be operated by ThomsonFly we shall see if they are going to reconfigure or not. There is a way for you to find out if you are 7 or 8 and that is if the flight number is TOM then it is 8 and if the flight number is ToM then it is 7.
Not sure how they will configure the 787's they have on order as they were ordered by First Choice but the final cabin will be arranged the ThomsonFly. I am looking forward the the Non-stop flights to Hawaii...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: LHRBFSTrident
Posted 2008-09-17 12:08:38 and read 43703 times.

IIRC, Air Mauritius (or was it Air Seychelles?) was the first airline to experiment with the 8-abreast Y seating for the 767 in the 1980s - I remember reading an article about it in Flight International at the time...

LGW-MRU or SEZ in 8-abreast would have been pretty punishing!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2008-09-17 12:22:19 and read 43649 times.

With legroom, the space in front of you is yours alone.

With shoulderroom, it is much more dependant on who you're sitting next too. Sit between 2 petite ladies, and you'll be ok with 8 abreast 767s etc. Sit between 2 wider men, and it can be very uncomfortable. Sitting between 2 friends on a 737 was horrible, as we're all quite large, and after 3 hours my arms were about to drop off with the lack of bloodflow...  crowded 

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: GARUDAROD
Posted 2008-09-17 12:29:05 and read 43597 times.

I don't know what the fuss is about 8 or 9 abreast now, When the B747's
DC10s, L1011s, A300s started flying and for many years after that,
10 abreast was quite common.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-09-17 13:51:39 and read 43343 times.



Quoting B777Neuss (Reply 9):
And Air Transat A310 and A330 also have 3-3-3.

AF also had 3-3-3 Y class seating on A300s and A310s that were mainly used on domestic routes in France. Air Inter also had 3-3-3 seating on A300s and A330-300s.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Debonair
Posted 2008-09-17 14:22:16 and read 43219 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Thread starter):
I admit I am not as much in the loop as many of you here, but I had not heard of this being done in a 767 before.

It might be unusual, but this is standard on many airlines- not charter only.

Spanair was very proud to have this configuration (remember reading their magazine), but also BRA, Skymark and now Rossiya.

a better picture:


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Photo © Fabio Laranjeira - Contato Radar

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2008-09-17 14:25:02 and read 43211 times.

BA had 10-abreast in its TriStars - both shorthaul and longhaul - in the 1980s too. The DC-10s it inherited from BCal had 9-abreast and remained that throughout their life with BA. For a couple of years both types were being operated, with a couple of seasons where a handful of TriStars were operating longhaul from LGW alongside the DC-10s.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-09-17 14:28:25 and read 43199 times.



Quoting Debonair (Reply 16):
It might be unusual, but this is standard on many airlines- not charter only.

Many is an exaggeration. By far the majority of 767 operators, and virtually all scheduled carriers, have the standard 7-abreast Y class configuration.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: AirCanada014
Posted 2008-09-17 14:32:30 and read 43177 times.

I know JL uses B747-200SR on domestic flight and its all economy but I've notice they didn't install extra seat across like having 3x5x3 instead the standard 3x4x3. Any reason why they didn't think of using that layout if they wanted to have more seats for domestic flight?

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-09-17 14:48:32 and read 43103 times.



Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 19):
I know JL uses B747-200SR on domestic flight and its all economy but I've notice they didn't install extra seat across like having 3x5x3 instead the standard 3x4x3. Any reason why they didn't think of using that layout if they wanted to have more seats for domestic flight?

They already have about 570 seats on their domestic 747s. I think that's enough. Any more would probably run into certification problems due to the number of emergency exits etc. Don't forget that 747s only had 9-abreast seating in Y class for the first few years after they went into service.

Also, the JL and NH domestic 747s are not all-economy. They have a domestic premium cabin also.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-09-17 14:47:42 and read 43101 times.

Talk about a horror story:

Flew on the AMC flight (operated by a North American 763) BAH-CHQ-NAP-TER-NOB. I was in 26E but here's the funny part. When I was assigned the seat in Bahrain, I said to the guy, oh this is an aisle seat so this is ok (I originally wanted a window) and he didn't respond but I didn't give it a second thought. Hey, the aviation nut I am, I know that E on a 767 is the aisle on the starboard side...NOT! I got on the plane and saw 8 abreast and was very upset. I'm a smaller guy and the guy sitting to my right was rather stout so lets just say that I didn't use my armrest the entire flight.

[Edited 2008-09-17 14:53:09]

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-17 15:06:19 and read 43029 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Thread starter):
I was just looking at a photo posted by a fellow A-netter, of a Thomas Cook 767 interior.

You mean my photo!!


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Photo © Darren Wilson


A full seating plan is available on TCX's website.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Jet-lagged
Posted 2008-09-17 15:15:56 and read 43005 times.

A couple years ago I flew ANA from Tokyo to Hokkaido, and the 767 was 2-4-2.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-09-17 15:22:19 and read 42976 times.

So here's my question, is the width of the seat a bit smaller than 7 across or is there a simple shift in how the middle row is placed in the cabin (thus the aisle space being much smaller vice the seat width).

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-09-17 15:42:30 and read 42920 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 24):
So here's my question, is the width of the seat a bit smaller than 7 across or is there a simple shift in how the middle row is placed in the cabin (thus the aisle space being much smaller vice the seat width).

8-abreast 767 seats (and aisles) are very narrow. Fortunately I've never flown on one but I would expect they are even worse than 6-abreast BAe146s/Avro RJs which are also very cramped and uncomfortable while those with 5-abreast seating (like LX's) are excellent.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-17 16:12:51 and read 43379 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 24):
So here's my question, is the width of the seat a bit smaller

The seats are very narrow and the seat pitch very tight in the middle seats. I spent 4 hours 15 mins in 29E when I took the above photo and even I felt the squeeze and I'm only 5ft 8" (1.72m). The outboard pairs are slightly roomier. I was in 25A on the way back. Full trip reports to follow!

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2008-09-17 17:05:08 and read 43251 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
8-abreast 767 seats (and aisles) are very narrow. Fortunately I've never flown on one but I would expect they are even worse than 6-abreast BAe146s/Avro RJs which are also very cramped and uncomfortable while those with 5-abreast seating (like LX's) are excellent.

Yes, they are! I've only flown the 767 in 8 abreast once and would never do it again, as another poster said, the legroom was just as much of a problem - I didn't physically fit in my seat; my thighs were jammed against the armrests and my knees dug into the back of the seat in front, fortunately I was able to move into an emergency exit, and I'm only 6ft, so not exactly tall! In comparison, I've also flown 9 abreast on a (SATA) A310, and that was quite constrained; you felt a little too close to your neighbour, but overall the legroom was miles better by the looks of it, although I can't really judge as I was in an emergency exit again.

I can put up with the 6 abreast 146s and Avros because they are only short flights, or just sit at the back where it's 5 abreast anyway.


Dan  Smile

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Lexy
Posted 2008-09-17 17:06:03 and read 43232 times.



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 22):
You mean my photo!!

Darren, let me just say that's a really nice photo. Looks like a full airplane!!!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: AirCanada014
Posted 2008-09-17 17:21:36 and read 43195 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Don't forget that 747s only had 9-abreast seating in Y class for the first few years after they went into service.

Wow didn't know 9 abreast seating was the standard in the past for short while.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-17 17:59:02 and read 43120 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 28):
Darren, let me just say that's a really nice photo. Looks like a full airplane!!!

Thanks. I have one from her sister aircraft, G-TCCA in the queue but I don't have much confidence in it getting accepted here. The shutter speeds were rather slow to get good shots because both flights were in the small hours. There wasn't a single seat spare on the aircraft. I believe there were 10 spare seats but because of the XL situation, 10 XL passengers were allowed on to the flight to aid repatriation of the stranded passengers. Well done TCX on that score.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2008-09-17 18:32:25 and read 42805 times.



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
I flew on a Thomsonfly 767 to the US and it was 8 a breast. Legroom was more of an issue than width!

Interesting, I would have though that they give you a little extra legroom if they are going to put and extra seat in the row. I guess they get you both ways...  crowded 

Flying these days, it's no longer about the journey, it IS about the destination...

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 14):
I don't know what the fuss is about 8 or 9 abreast now, When the B747's, DC10s, L1011s, A300s started flying and for many years after that,
10 abreast was quite common.

Much wider A/C, though. Apples and oranges.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2008-09-17 18:44:10 and read 42691 times.

A lot of the width issue depends on who is beside you. If it is a larger person and that extra width becomes very important. It really makes you appreciate the airlines that don't squish you in the back. Air Transat has added pitch to offset some of the complaints about crowding on their flights. AC has always had good width with average ptich. As long as my knees don't touch the seat in front and there is enough room to eat I am usually ok. I don't however fly on charters very often.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Sandyb123
Posted 2008-09-17 19:01:51 and read 42660 times.

I just flew GLA-DBX-SIN-MEL on EK 777 all the way (10 across in coach). Seat width was OK actually but leg room poor. The first leg was on a -300ER which had better legroom than the 300 from DBX down to MEL which was cramped.

On the third leg an arrogant man wouldn't let me sit next to him in the emergency isle because ' his wife was ill'. More like drunk. He then tilted his seat right back and put his hands over my screen.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2008-09-18 00:11:41 and read 41081 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
They already have about 570 seats on their domestic 747s. I think that's enough. Any more would probably run into certification problems due to the number of emergency exits etc. Don't forget that 747s only had 9-abreast seating in Y class for the first few years after they went into service.

JL used their high density planes n their domestic routes whose flights only last a couple of hours. These flights are like taking a bus and that's how you have to look at it.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Jetset409
Posted 2008-09-18 01:43:39 and read 40605 times.

This thread has reminded me all about my trip on a WhyTravel 767 back in 2002(ish). Flew G-DIMB (now with MON, sistership to G-DAJC and G-SJMC) down to Kefalonia in Greece. I remember the seats were fairly tight, but not uncomfortably so given only a 3hr flight. What i do remember however is having to walk sideways down the aisles!  Smile

On a side point - do these three aircraft still have a belly-cam? That was the best bit about that flight!

Jetset409

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-18 03:33:44 and read 40032 times.



Quoting Jetset409 (Reply 35):
On a side point - do these three aircraft still have a belly-cam? That was the best bit about that flight!

Yes, they do. They are fabulous looking forward so you can see the landing gears and engines on take off and landing. The take off from Manchester and landing back in Manchester were in the light so we got great views, especially seeing the gears touchdown and the smoke etc. It was dark approaching / departing Dalaman so the views weren't as spectacular. I just wish more operators had them fitted.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Jetset409
Posted 2008-09-18 03:59:23 and read 39888 times.

Yes I remember the positioning of the camera to be brilliant. The Airshow programme on the monitors cycled through the map and camera view after the programmes had finished, and then shortly before landing at Gatwick the pilot turned it off! I tried my luck by asking a flight attendant to ask the pilot to turn the system back on. Much to my surprise, he did! Brilliant view of the gear extension and landing! Made sitting in the middle of the plane much more bearable I must say.

Wonder how long Monarch will keep G-DIMBo for... Guess they need it to cover late 787's. It would be good to see the three ex-Airtours planes all back together for one operator...

Jetset409

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-18 04:05:17 and read 39856 times.



Quoting Jetset409 (Reply 37):
Wonder how long Monarch will keep G-DIMB

I believe it's being leased to Air Méditerranée for the winter season.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Aviationfreak
Posted 2008-09-18 04:23:52 and read 39716 times.

What would the capacity be of a 763 with 8 abreast?

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-18 04:37:03 and read 39627 times.



Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 39):
What would the capacity be of a 763 with 8 abreast?

TCX are 326Y.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-18 05:49:52 and read 39127 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Funnily enough the average charter passenger has never really moaned and groaned about the seat width in the way that they have the seat pitch. Indeed, to be honest it isn't as bad as you might think.

Rubbish! I and many, many others have moaned and groaned about the appalling seating configurations ubiquitous to British low-cost and charter carriers.

When reaching my allocated seat on a Britannia 757-200 at BHX I found it impossible to get my knees into the space, I was adamant that I would get off the flight but was stopped from this by my wife who felt my suffering was worth the holiday.

Having travelled on a Monarch 767 - LGW/LUX I can assure anyone that the seating is just as bad - six hours of extreme discomfort.

Each of these carriers add insult to injury by providing a cabin service that is similar to Tesco - selling this, that and the other for extortionate prices. Ah!, the romance of flying is long, long gone. These carriers offer the same value for money as the London Underground in rush hour...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Planesarecool
Posted 2008-09-18 06:07:33 and read 38968 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 41):
Rubbish! I and many, many others have moaned and groaned about the appalling seating configurations ubiquitous to British low-cost and charter carriers.

When reaching my allocated seat on a Britannia 757-200 at BHX I found it impossible to get my knees into the space, I was adamant that I would get off the flight but was stopped from this by my wife who felt my suffering was worth the holiday.

Having travelled on a Monarch 767 - LGW/LUX I can assure anyone that the seating is just as bad - six hours of extreme discomfort.

Each of these carriers add insult to injury by providing a cabin service that is similar to Tesco - selling this, that and the other for extortionate prices. Ah!, the romance of flying is long, long gone. These carriers offer the same value for money as the London Underground in rush hour...

Well I'm 6'5 and although i find the 28" configuration slightly uncomfortable, it's nothing like as bad as you make out. I'd be more than willing to spend another 4-5 hours in the same configuration as I have done 5 times already this year.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-18 06:25:24 and read 38817 times.



Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 42):
Well I'm 6'5 and although i find the 28" configuration slightly uncomfortable, it's nothing like as bad as you make out. I'd be more than willing to spend another 4-5 hours in the same configuration as I have done 5 times already this year.

All things are subjective - if you are happy to pay a couple of hundred pounds to sit in discomfort for 4 or 5 hours, then fine, that is a choice you make. On a personal level, when I spend a couple of hundred pounds then I expect a level of comfort at least as that found on a rail journey of a similar time - sadly, these airlines (or their accountants) make a decision to reduce the leg room to the minimum they can get away with. One of the results of those decisions is that I, and many like me choose not to travel on those airlines.

I am able to look back to a time when charter carriers offered something close to a reasonable level of comfort; a British Overseas Air Charter flight on G-ARRC between LHR/DXB/KUL taking some 13-hrs was more than comfortable and my very first flight on a British Eagle Britannia is also looked back upon with pleasure. I am also fortunate in that I have been able to enjoy travel in Club Class and First Class on many carriers so understand the benefits of travelling in comfort. Concorde, whilst the seats were not as the standard first class seats, offered absolute comfort regardless of the associated cabin service.

Of course, whenever I've travelled for free, I've been far less critical of the comfort offered...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: EBGflyer
Posted 2008-09-18 06:26:42 and read 38809 times.

Hasn't some of the charter operators improved their seat pitch? I know Thomas Cook Scandinavia has and also TuiFly. Perhaps the move with 8 abreast is to compensate for the fewer seat rows.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-18 06:32:54 and read 38743 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 41):
I and many, many others have moaned and groaned about the appalling seating configurations ubiquitous to British low-cost and charter carriers.

Working for a holiday website, that's the general feeling I get from passengers. Having been trans-atlantic on them twice (BY/TOM before the cabin refit), Turkey is far enough on them for me these days. The new long haul cabins, especially FCA's Star Class are excellent.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2008-09-18 07:02:37 and read 38591 times.

Don't forget Delta, which is installing the new 8 across configuration in its 767s using that new "cozy suite" concept. The seats look interesting, but it looks like the suites will block the window view for everyone but window seat passengers

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2008-09-18 08:17:52 and read 38042 times.

I've sat in the mockup for the 777 with both the 9 abreast and 10 abreast seating layout (the first half is 9, and the second is 10 so you can compare the two side by side). You do not notice much of a difference when you sit down by yourself and can use both arm rests. However if you do not use both armrests (which is the normal case when you are on a plane sitting next to someone), you can really notice that the 10 abreast layout seats are narrower and hurt the shoulders as there isn't enough space for your arms.

I've also sat in the 787 mockup, and the 8 abreast is luxuriously wide for economy, and 9 abreast is acceptably comfortable. 9 abreast is a little less comfortable than a 9 abreast 777, but pretty similar to a 737 size seat. I don't think anyone would put 10 abreast in a 787, so hopefully that isn't a concern.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Planesarecool
Posted 2008-09-18 09:02:26 and read 37673 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 43):
All things are subjective - if you are happy to pay a couple of hundred pounds to sit in discomfort for 4 or 5 hours, then fine, that is a choice you make. On a personal level, when I spend a couple of hundred pounds then I expect a level of comfort at least as that found on a rail journey of a similar time - sadly, these airlines (or their accountants) make a decision to reduce the leg room to the minimum they can get away with. One of the results of those decisions is that I, and many like me choose not to travel on those airlines.

Although, it's this lack of legroom that actually allows me to take a lot of my holidays - I generally book last minute, anything up to a day or two before. With more legroom, and thus fewer seats, I wouldn't be able to get these cheap deals. I'd rather pay £130 for a week in Tenerife and have to squeeze in to get there, than pay £250 for the same week but have a little bit more comfort, or not go at all.

In fact I have a first hand account of this - I was recently invited with another ex-student to go on and help organise a college surfing trip in the Dominican Republic. Only it's not happening, simply because Thomas Cook and Thomson have reduced the amount of seats due to increasing the legroom, meaning that as of September 3rd, there wasn't one flight from Gatwick to Puerto Plata between November and March that had the required 30 seats available.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: 787KQ
Posted 2008-09-18 10:31:48 and read 37028 times.

And only 5 toilets!

http://www.thomascookairlines.co.uk/Boeing_A767.asp

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: EXTspotter
Posted 2008-09-18 11:43:11 and read 36881 times.

I have been on all 3 of the Ex-Airtours planes, but back in the 90s/early 00s, when it was still Airtours. 8 across is by far the norm in this country for the charter airline, short and longhaul. LGW - PUJ - LGW and MAN - VRA - MAN on Airtours, its wierd to think it was such a long time ago. I remeber that when we went to PUJ, I was only 6 or 7 and it was just after the water poisoning scare there, so I had 4 seats to myself, so I had a proper bed, lol!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2008-09-18 11:55:25 and read 36835 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 41):
Having travelled on a Monarch 767 - LGW/LUX I can assure anyone that the seating is just as bad - six hours of extreme discomfort.

not only uncomfortable but incredibly slow - I have never heard of a flight from London to Luxembourg taking so long - normally about 1h 10 - 1 h 15 each way ... or did you perhaps mean LGW - LXR ?  Wink

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-18 12:01:45 and read 36812 times.



Quoting 787KQ (Reply 49):
And only 5 toilets!

That was plenty for our flights to and from Dalaman last week / 2 weeks ago on the aircraft in question. There were no queues but then again they were overnight flights so many passengers slept during the flight.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Crosswind
Posted 2008-09-18 15:47:15 and read 36622 times.



Quoting 787KQ (Reply 49):
And only 5 toilets!

http://www.thomascookairlines.co.uk/...7.asp

There are 6 actually - they've just missed 1 off the seat plan.
The "missing" one is ahead of 15G/H - always been there since the Airtours days but missed off the plan for some reason... You can see where it fits though and there is a blanked window in that location.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2008-09-18 19:13:06 and read 36489 times.



Quoting Jetset409 (Reply 35):
What i do remember however is having to walk sideways down the aisles!

Unfortunate - There seems to be double jeopardy in putting in 8 across - MORE passengers, yet thinner aisles for emergency egress.

Bad combination, in my view.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-19 01:52:22 and read 36333 times.



Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 44):
Hasn't some of the charter operators improved their seat pitch? I know Thomas Cook Scandinavia has and also TuiFly. Perhaps the move with 8 abreast is to compensate for the fewer seat rows.

At the time I was so incensed by the physical pain involved inflying with Britannia who assured me their seating configuration for their B757-200 was "normal" that I had a look at the seating plans on Condor's website (their sister company - now all known as TUI in one form or another). You will probably recall that they obtained similar aircraft around the same time - it appeared that Condor could only manage to cram in about 20 less seats than Britannia. I seriously believe that if these companies could find a way of removing the toilets and galleys without too much uproar they would happily do this to squeeze in a few extra seats.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
Only it's not happening, simply because Thomas Cook and Thomson have reduced the amount of seats due to increasing the legroom, meaning that as of September 3rd, there wasn't one flight from Gatwick to Puerto Plata between November and March that had the required 30 seats available

I think our friend here will find that the tour operators seat allocation at this time prohibits them from selling off a block of 30 seats at this time, my understanding of the tour operators business is that blocks of seats are allocated to various wholesalers early in the seasons and these are used or bartered across with other companies as the picture becomes clearer throughout the season. Most wholesalers/consolidators will prefer the income from the whole package rather than selling off a large block of seats cheap at the start of the selling season and be starved of good income later on. The move towards additional legroom is brought about from two souces, firstly, passengers are making their feelings about legroom known to these operators and secondly, they are also nervous about litigation from the relatives of someone who dies from DVT.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-19 01:54:24 and read 36330 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 51):
not only uncomfortable but incredibly slow - I have never heard of a flight from London to Luxembourg taking so long - normally about 1h 10 - 1 h 15 each way ... or did you perhaps mean LGW - LXR ?

DUH! Of course - LXR - lovely airport by the way...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Jetset409
Posted 2008-09-19 02:12:45 and read 36304 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 55):
I seriously believe that if these companies could find a way of removing the toilets and galleys without too much uproar they would happily do this to squeeze in a few extra seats.

Already done - albeit on a small scale. Now please people, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't Britannia/TUI always managed to squeeze 235 seats into their 757's rather than the more standard 233 pax of other charter carriers (MON, FCA etc...) due to removal of a closet near the front left door?

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
MORE passengers, yet thinner aisles for emergency egress.

Bad combination, in my view.

Often wondered what the evac. time would be. No doubt it is well within the rules or it simply wouldn't be able to fly. But still, you never know until the day comes heaven forbid!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Cricket
Posted 2008-09-19 02:22:09 and read 36309 times.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 47):
I've sat in the mockup for the 777 with both the 9 abreast and 10 abreast seating layout (the first half is 9, and the second is 10 so you can compare the two side by side). You do not notice much of a difference when you sit down by yourself and can use both arm rests. However if you do not use both armrests (which is the normal case when you are on a plane sitting next to someone), you can really notice that the 10 abreast layout seats are narrower and hurt the shoulders as there isn't enough space for your arms.

I've flown DEL-BKK on TG on a 3-4-3 773 and you have a point, it totally depends on whether you have someone next to you. I was seated on the 'K' window but the middle seat was empty. No where as comfortable as TG's own 3-3-3 777's, but on a regional flight of under six hours it is bearable. Anything more and I wouldn't fly on it...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Planesarecool
Posted 2008-09-19 05:54:24 and read 36164 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 55):
I think our friend here will find that the tour operators seat allocation at this time prohibits them from selling off a block of 30 seats at this time, my understanding of the tour operators business is that blocks of seats are allocated to various wholesalers early in the seasons and these are used or bartered across with other companies as the picture becomes clearer throughout the season. Most wholesalers/consolidators will prefer the income from the whole package rather than selling off a large block of seats cheap at the start of the selling season and be starved of good income later on.

Given that we'd have been booking 2 months before the start of the Winter season, as well as the fact that they were happy to offer us up to 58 seats on a Manchester flight, I think it's safe to assume that that isn't the case.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-19 05:59:39 and read 36162 times.



Quoting Cricket (Reply 58):
Now please people, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't Britannia/TUI always managed to squeeze 235 seats into their 757's rather than the more standard 233 pax of other charter carriers (MON, FCA etc...) due to removal of a closet near the front left door?

Didn't I read somewhere that Airbus had to install an additional escape exit over the wing to accomodate the additional passengers that Easyjet wanted to wedge into their 319's?

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Egmcman
Posted 2008-09-19 11:50:03 and read 35990 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 60):
Didn't I read somewhere that Airbus had to install an additional escape exit over the wing to accomodate the additional passengers that Easyjet wanted to wedge into their 319's?

Yes it is true but as someone who flys on their A319's four return trips a year on two and half hour flights STN - AGP they aren't bad.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-09-19 12:18:37 and read 35949 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 60):
Didn't I read somewhere that Airbus had to install an additional escape exit over the wing to accomodate the additional passengers that Easyjet wanted to wedge into their 319's?

Yes, EasyJet A319s (and a few others) have 2 overwing exits per side. However I've never found EasyJet seating as tight as the typical U.K. charter/leisure carriers which often have 28 or 29 inch pitch. I think EasyJet's pitch is pretty typical of most scheduled carriers in Y class at about 31 inches.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SR100
Posted 2008-09-19 13:01:24 and read 35899 times.

No one mentioned Delta Air Lines so far.

Their new configuration on the 763 - eventhough with staggered seats - will be 8 abreast aswell... And I assume that on their 777 there will be a 10 abreast staggered version!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2008-09-19 13:18:12 and read 35850 times.



Quoting SR100 (Reply 63):
No one mentioned Delta Air Lines so far.

Ah! But someone (me) did. See response no. 46 above. I am very interested to see how the new delta seats work out.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Intermodal64
Posted 2008-09-20 07:22:01 and read 35515 times.



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 45):
Don't forget Delta, which is installing the new 8 across configuration in its 767s using that new "cozy suite" concept. The seats look interesting, but it looks like the suites will block the window view for everyone but window seat passengers

Even though seats will be staggered, 8-across on DL 767 long-haul will be cozy indeed. Hope the person sitting next to me (and sort of behind me) has nice legs and keeps shoes on. I'll leave the rest to your imagination!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2008-09-20 07:50:29 and read 35487 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 43):
All things are subjective - if you are happy to pay a couple of hundred pounds to sit in discomfort for 4 or 5 hours, then fine, that is a choice you make. On a personal level, when I spend a couple of hundred pounds then I expect a level of comfort at least as that found on a rail journey of a similar time

That depends very much on the rail operator, the cross country Virgin Voyagers (which run for very long journeys across the UK) are very uncomfortable, with poor legroom and small windows...

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Egmcman
Posted 2008-09-20 14:15:37 and read 35336 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 55):
At the time I was so incensed by the physical pain involved inflying with Britannia who assured me their seating configuration for their B757-200 was "normal" that I had a look at the seating plans on Condor's website (their sister company - now all known as TUI in one form or another). You will probably recall that they obtained similar aircraft around the same time - it appeared that Condor could only manage to cram in about 20 less seats than Britannia. I seriously believe that if these companies could find a way of removing the toilets and galleys without too much uproar they would happily do this to squeeze in a few extra seats.

German holidays are more expensive than ones sold in the UK.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2008-09-20 16:42:01 and read 35269 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 55):
Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
Only it's not happening, simply because Thomas Cook and Thomson have reduced the amount of seats due to increasing the legroom, meaning that as of September 3rd, there wasn't one flight from Gatwick to Puerto Plata between November and March that had the required 30 seats available



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 55):
I think our friend here will find

Actually, that was not my quote.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 58):
I've flown DEL-BKK on TG on a 3-4-3 773 and you have a point, it totally depends on whether you have someone next to you. I was seated on the 'K' window but the middle seat was empty. No where as comfortable as TG's own 3-3-3 777's, but on a regional flight of under six hours it is bearable. Anything more and I wouldn't fly on it...

This is why seat width is more important to me than leg room, in general, barring ridiculously cramped configurations. Because I can control what I put under the seat in front of me, or how much I fill my seat pocket, but I have no control over the size of the person who sits next to me unless I am flying with a companion and we snag a window/aisle seat combination. There is a high incidence of those deuces on a 767, regardless of 7 or 8 across, however I usually fly alone.

Further, with less legroom, I would imagine that seats typically (necessarily) recline less, which I find also very uncomfortable on a long flight when I want to lean against the window and sleep.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: A340600
Posted 2008-09-21 06:46:29 and read 35061 times.



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 40):
TCX are 326Y.

Darren

:OThat's a lot of seats on the 767!

Quoting SR100 (Reply 63):
No one mentioned Delta Air Lines so far

Reply 45 Wink

I flew on an 8 abreast 767 in 2005 to Florida on the now defunct XL, though they had 32-33" legroom which made things a bit easier. Still, it's a bit much for the 767!

How many crew do TCX put on these aircraft? At my airline we have 8 crew for the 767, but ours only seat 189.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Senorbob
Posted 2008-09-21 07:15:16 and read 35028 times.

At one stage Britannia had 344Y in their short haul 763's and 290Y in the 762's.

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-21 08:23:38 and read 34966 times.



Quoting A340600 (Reply 69):
How many crew do TCX put on these aircraft?

I believe it's 7 cabin + 2 flight crew, but don't quote me on that!

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: CasualObserver
Posted 2008-09-21 11:17:07 and read 34849 times.



Quoting Egmcman (Reply 67):
German holidays are more expensive than ones sold in the UK.

Of course this is very true, German/Belgian/Swiss tour operators do offer a much better quality package than English operators. You do get what you pay for. I suppose we English choose to buy everything based on price rather than quality - just take a look down the High Street.

I'd like to bet though that the money-men of these carriers, Britannia, Monarch, et al don't choose to drive a Citroen C1 - they're driving Jags!

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-22 00:32:53 and read 34631 times.



Quoting CasualObserver (Reply 72):
Of course this is very true, German/Belgian/Swiss tour operators do offer a much better quality package than English operators.

Do they? The photo that originally started this topic was taken while onroute to a popular British, Dutch, German and Russian tourist destination. Thomas Cook (UK and Germany) have exclusive rights to stay at the particular hotel I was at, they lease it for the year. Given we all get the same hotel at the end, the same comany operating the tansfers etc, the only difference is the flight. I would argue we recieve the same quality of package in this case. It does, of course depend on the specifics of your booking.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomas Cook 767 - 8 Across In Coach?!
Username: Dazbo5
Posted 2008-09-22 03:14:51 and read 34559 times.

Cabin view aboard Thomas Cooks other Boeing 767-31K/ER as promised; G-TCCA (former G-SJMC, reg changed so it doesn't clash with G-OJMC):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Darren Wilson



Darren


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