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Topic: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Flying lsd
Posted 2001-03-13 20:50:11 and read 1706 times.

Everybody 's speaking about the facts that SR will sale SN to AA.

But is it somebody working in USA in AA who have heart rumors about the next relationship between AA and SN.

Here in Brussels , everybody thinking that SN will become a kind of AA Europe because AA need Brussels airport for growth and SN to feed the next batch of his future growth in the transatlantic market.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2001-03-13 22:32:13 and read 1496 times.

It would be a shame to see such an old name disappear. After all, despite being perpetually up the creek, it is a country's national airline. However, I think AA should be able to make something of it. One of SN's worst failures is that it was at the very heart of Europe, the administrative centre of Europe with Eurocrats on a gravy train to all corners of Europe and yet, they made a profit about three times in the past 45 years.

American would be a good partner and I would hope that they would keep the name and help it achieve its potential.

From an Irish perspective, it is quite irritating that something like this comes about. Aer Lingus serves a much smaller market than SN and is constricted by a very restrictive bilateral (Belgium has open skies), yet it does quite well, runs a good operation and turns in a decent, if not stellar, profit. One can't help thinking that AA was looking for a European base already and if Ireland's bilateral were more constructive, Dublin could have been the hub and Aer Lingus the partner; after all, they're both in oneworld.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Chepos
Posted 2001-03-13 22:50:32 and read 1463 times.

If SN is nought by AA I hope that SN wont be slashed like the TWA name . AA is sort of Hungry .
Puerto Rico

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Saint-Exupery
Posted 2001-03-13 23:02:08 and read 1440 times.

I only know that one of AAs managers attended the talks between the SN and SR management and the SN unions.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-13 23:04:40 and read 1438 times.

I doubt AA would be happy with 49.5 %. That's as much as a US carrier can buy into a EU carrier.It's rather complicated.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2001-03-14 01:32:07 and read 1402 times.

AA is becoming very large. Regulators should watch out for them.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: WiLdmanVzla
Posted 2001-03-14 02:46:40 and read 1389 times.

Well, well, well... I don't like AA at all, but I think it can be a good choice to keep Sabena flying, to help Swissair to fight against their economical troubles & to turn Brussels into the great hub it has to be because there's the capital of Europe

PD... What a situation... the airline of the European center of power part owned by the americans!!!!!


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Blink182
Posted 2001-03-14 02:58:12 and read 1385 times.

I really don't think the name "Sabena" will be gone, as AA would own the minority, but AA would probably re-route several of their flights through ZRH and BRU

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Swiss-airplane
Posted 2001-03-14 09:37:57 and read 1355 times.

Right now nothing is decided about SAirGroup and Sabena. There are rumors that Swissair will sell their stake in Sabena. Once it was writen that BA or AA will only buy the remaining 35 percent of Sabena, the other 49.50 percent will stay by SAirGroup. But now the financial situation by Sabena is very bad, so maybe Swissair will sell the whole stake. At the moment Swissair owns only 49.50 percent of this belgian Airlines.
If AA will buy Sabena they have to invest a lot of money in Sabena, because Sabena need a lot of money. They are making such a big loose.
Mike, Switzerland

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 12:56:12 and read 1328 times.

they are no loosing as much money as SR does my friend!
4.155.555 USD a day is a big loss for SR so I do not think that is a good situation.

I do hope that AA would buy SABENA. Maybe it has a chance to survive.
They had a big opportunity wits SR but unfortunately I thinh the marriage is over now. SR is bancrupt!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Avion
Posted 2001-03-14 13:07:42 and read 1329 times.


If you look at the latest figures you will see that SN loses a lot more than SR (not SAir) at the moment.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 13:18:17 and read 1318 times.

Ha Buck Danny,

please feel so free by sharing these figures with us. I am very interested!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Udo
Posted 2001-03-14 13:18:43 and read 1317 times.

If AA buys into SN they would not change the name. SN is Belgium's national carrier and customers would not accept such a change. Remember when BA tried to operate TAT French Airlines under the BA name? Customers did not accept it and BA had to react.
Nevertheless I hope a strong partner can help Sabena which is a very good airline.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Avion
Posted 2001-03-14 13:27:52 and read 1316 times.


Please show me your figures first that lead you to the conclusion that SR (not SAir) loses mor than SN.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 13:30:34 and read 1310 times.

Nice try little guy!!!!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Avion
Posted 2001-03-14 13:37:41 and read 1307 times.

I'm waiting. You still havent backed up one of your statements.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Saint-Exupery
Posted 2001-03-14 13:42:10 and read 1306 times.

Hello Avion&Airbuspilot
You do realy like each other, don't you?
When it comes to figures, I can help with some estimations made by analysts an some internal information. Look at my post in the SN/SR worst case scenario thread.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Myself
Posted 2001-03-14 15:04:54 and read 1289 times.

To Airbuspilot and Avion :

In this discussion I'm supporting Airbuspilot for his nice analysis of why SN is more attractive to AA than SR is :
Hub : BRU outscores ZRH
Expansion possibilities : BRU again
Punctuality : BRU
Cultural compatibility and flexibility : guess !
Network : Swissair has a lot to offer, but there is a big overlap with the AA-network and also the network of OneWorld partner BA. Sabena : European network that still needs some fine-tuning, but proves to be efficient, and the well constructed African network.
Financial : At this very moment, all SAir companies are deep into the red. ( I will NOT start a discussion on who is to blame for this, as this does not contribute in any way to the discussion ). Luckily SN got the recapitalization and is now trying to find the right track again. I must also admit that Christoph Muller is proving more and more to be the right man in the right place ( so please let him stay at SN ! ). When reading the Swiss press ( Shareholder outraged, Government not very enthousiastic about helping SAir financially, the major mess at top-management-level ), I would say SAir and their prodigy Swissair still have a lot of cleaning and reorganizing to do, which will take lots of time and money. So : SN represents a lower risk and smaller effort to AA than SR does.

But wouldn't we all want to have a look in the crystal ball ?

Greetings to you all, I'm about to attend a meeting on "globalization in the aviation industry", presented by an American consultancy agency. Far more interesting than throwing mud and s**t at each other on a forum.

See You

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 15:23:56 and read 1282 times.

I totally agrre with myself that this is nor the place nor the time to throw shit at each other.
I just do not want to waste time with guys who do not know athing about this situation.
I know that by the end of this year SR will have accumulated 12 billion Bef of losses compared to 8billion bef at SN.
Both these results are very very bad so there is no point in arguing on that.
I attended the meeting abour derugalirsastion also and I must say it was very interesting. Neither one of both companies will survive without a partner. Within 10 years there will be 3 or4 big players in Europe (look at the states) so we have to do something now.
Talks allready started at SN and are well advanced.
We posed those guys the question if somebody is willing to work with SN and the answer is yes!Concerning SR and SN together the answer was no and to the question wich company would be prefered they pointed out SN.
And this is due to the reasons pointed out before by me and "myself".
The only problem is that an American company can only buy 49% of the stakes in a Belgian company. So they are trying to resolve this problem on governamental levels.
So we will have to see now. I am convinced that both carriers will continue to exist but I have my doubts on whether it will be together.

To AVION: i know you are not appreciated by a lot of others here for the same reasons as I have, being a lack of knowledge and having a big mouth. So please dont question my knowledge!!!!Study up first!

To the rest of you,

Bye Bye

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-14 15:29:40 and read 1275 times.

Hi Myself
Very interesting the meeting on globalisation. Do you know those guys worked a lot of times for AA. They say about the same as you did but they give a lot of figures to back it all up. May be we should publish some of this because the same briefing has been given to the (ex) Sair staff and this could stop some stupid discussions on the forum.Especially for Tomavion.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-14 15:34:25 and read 1273 times.

Greetings Airbuspilot
It's 49.5 % otherwise correct.
See you

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: BelugaBoy
Posted 2001-03-14 15:58:42 and read 1263 times.

Sure Airbuspilot,

you spend all the money of the Belgian Government, messed up with KLM/BA , messed up with Air France , now you caused major problems with Swissair ... and now you are going to play with the money of AA ??

As long as SABENA does nothing about the cause of the losses they will never find a definitive solution. NO COMPANY in the world accepts what SABENA does , that is loosing money, loosing even more money, loosing even more money ... and still think they are right and all others are wrong.

If AA buys SABENA it will want it to become profitable. What is 100% normal. It will for sure end up in a new cost-cut operation and then two things can happen. Or the personel finally understands and cooperate ( with job losses ) or the same will happen as with KLM/BA, Air France and Swissair.

The choice will be yours.

But I can tell you one thing, we ( the Belgian citizens ) are sick and tired that you keep spoiling tax-payers money and if something should be done you just go on strike and spoil OUR holidays, business trips ... We want an airline were we can be proud of , once and for all. And the way to become that is not to change partners every two years because you spend all the money from the previous partner ! You think you are flexible, try to work in the company I'm working, you wouldn't stay for 1 month !!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 16:59:07 and read 1243 times.

Well well belugaboy,

if you want to be proud of SABENA, why dont you start supprting the company!!!No, in stead you keep nagging about your hollidays....

let me ask you, are you working as a pilot?
if yes is it a belgian carrier.

if it is you are flying charters and you know how things work there: it is getting F******* dangerous and you know it. You should fight a little bit more and nagg a little less.

And once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you are tired of wasted taxmoney why dont you say anything about the army, the nmbs,het deurganckdok, al de andere openbare aanbestedingen bullshit....

I know SN screwed up in the past but I can assure you things are changing and we have the potential to become profitable. We where ready to accept SR FT/DT regulations but THEY refused because they very well now Belgians are cheap pilots!!!!!And you want to be proud....You are being f****in the a** my friend.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 17:04:01 and read 1244 times.

Oeps sorry,

you are an IT-MANAGER!!!!!No wonder you are so shortsighted!!

What are you complaining about, you are not even an airline employee!!!

Aah yes, the holidays. Well go ahead, buy your cheap tickets. 11000bef to MIAMI.. go ahead.But do not blame the crew if something happens because they are overexhausted. that is if you still will be able to say anything because chances are you are dead by then!!!!!

Prove me that you know anything about the working regime of a flight crew and i ll rest my case!!!But do not come here with the cheap info you got frm Television.


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: BelugaBoy
Posted 2001-03-14 17:33:10 and read 1233 times.

hey looser,

I' am supporting SABENA, hoping that they finally realise they should get rid of their arrogant overpaid underqualified pilots and only continue with the good ones.

Based on your first reaction on my previous post I can only say one thing .... you are sick my friend and if people like you are in control of SABENA planes


You are reacting like the worst hooligan, you don't have the minimum self control that you should expect from a pilot.

And that other company, whatch out, it is probably flying for SABENA anyway.
Or shouldn't I say that if you buy a SABENA ticket they put you on the first available low budget plane ( Virgin Express ) resulting in the fact that a lot of the Belgian TOP20 companies don't allow their employees to choose SABENA on those flights anymore !
And don't say that is not true, I have the list with allowed airlines for the TOP20 companies here on my desk. We have to use this list at all times.
Just ordered a ticket to Barcelona ..... with IBERIA offcourse because SABENA uses Virgin planes !!!! I could choose , fly IBERIA or go via Amsterdam or Paris !!!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2001-03-14 18:05:39 and read 1222 times.

I can't believe all the griping about American Airlines possibly buying a near-half interest in SABENA.  Insane

This could actually be a huge boon for AA. People forget that the Benelux countries are superbly located for O & D traffic into Europe from outside the continent, and AA would love to have a strong presence on the European mainland. AA could use SN flights flying passengers arriving in Europe on AA flights from the USA to other European countries, or in the case of France transfer arriving passengers to the Eurostar trains.

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: TriStar
Posted 2001-03-14 18:06:08 and read 1225 times.

A fine example of how Belgian chauvinism and pride in one's own people works...

I would love to see the first SN employee to step forward and say (s)he wants the company to make losses. What kind of reasoning is that? Please...

Belugaboy, I am not going to defy your knowledge of the aviation industry, let alone business in general. I don't know you, so it is not up to me to judge. Still I feel personally attacked by your rather blunt statements about the supposed lack of will to improve the situation, that you say is a characteristic for all SN employees. Please do not patronize us like that and act as if we don't know what today's market evolves around. The hard dollar, indeed.
Just as I don't know you, you don't know me. We all deserve that basic grain of respect. Even if to you, it is merely the benefit of doubt.

No way am I resorting to name calling. Nevertheless, with your initial post in this thread, you sound more like an alterego of some of the people that have been narrow-mindedly and consistently attacking SN and its employees in these forums.
You can't expect people to keep sitting back and take it with a smile... Judge and you will be judged, correct?

Best regards,


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-14 18:09:56 and read 1217 times.

Beluga Boy
This is an aviation forum.Looks to me you 've no idea what you're speaking about. Go to an IT forum leave this one to people who like aviation. Bey!

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-14 18:15:56 and read 1209 times.

Say Beluga are you one of those guys who did not get through the tests/exams and had to chose an IT career when you always dreamed of becoming a pilot or are you really interested in aviation?

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 18:34:03 and read 1200 times.

To me it sounds as if he is frustrated anyway.
Overpaid underqualified....
Well well he surely sounds like someone who knows what he is talking about.
i will not get into this discussion but if there is one sector that is overpaid it is.......right: IT.
Tell me mate, according to you, what does a pilot earn at SN?
About the underqualification: there you are wrong because I do not know a single SN pilot that was not accepted by an other company when he wanted to. Oh by the way, SN is the second oldest company in the world with a safety record within the top5 of the world....I bet that has something to do with your underqualified pilots right!!!

About the problem of the SN tickets on the low cost carriers: we are aware of that!!!Dont you think we as pilots reacted allready against that...This is one of the many managment decisions that where taken a couple of years ago and which have been proven to be wrong.
this will not last for long anymore.

about the fact that I can not control myself: you are right, with people like you I loose my temper.Luckily people like you will never make it as a pilot......Unfortunately you made it as a manager and they are to blame for the mess SN is in right now!!!!!

Anyway, I believe the discussion was SN/AA. I am very happy to see that there are people who stiil know what they are talking about...

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Swake
Posted 2001-03-14 18:44:53 and read 1202 times.

Good post, Tristar
Though the airlinebusiness is after all a ... business. The fact that you like your work is great but it shouldn't divert your attention from what really matters : money comin' in. And, even when unfortunate, Beluga has a point, SN has not always been known for its outstanding service.
I'm not in the airlinefield either but I thought this board was for aviation professionals & civil aviation enthousiasts and not only the Sabena enthousiasts.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best Regards

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: IFF/7000
Posted 2001-03-14 21:02:11 and read 1179 times.

An airline has to make money, but that's a managers problem. Pilots and cabin costs are 1.5 % in the operation of an aircraft. I think every Sabena pilot would like Sabena to be profitable like any other employee in any other biz.
Overpaid ? Look this one up in some previous posts on this forum. Once a passenger told me " to know you're well paid makes me feel safe because they never pay you for nothing" ( an American surgeon on a flight to Paris).
Underqualified ? I was a flight instructor in the Airforce. I've been trained in the SAS training centre in Stockholm, with TAT in Dinard, with Flight Safety in Paris, with BM in London, with BAe in Manchester and with Airbus in Toulouse and I can tell you the Sabena pilots are well trained.
That's why I can easely understand the reaction of Airbuspilot when somebody who doesn't know anything about aviation ( like Belu) pops up. And just for your information a pilot should not divert his attention from what matters and that is safety, while the worries about money making should go to the other professionals, the management. Everybody his own job, ours is to fly the aircraft.
And NO Beluga has not a point he just doesn't know what he's talking about.So I don't count him in the aviation professionals & civil aviation enthousiasts. ( did he work for L&H ?).

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Airbuspilot
Posted 2001-03-14 22:57:40 and read 1155 times.

thanks IFF.Much appreciated!

Topic: RE: Swake
Username: TriStar
Posted 2001-03-15 00:46:46 and read 1136 times.


I trust I am expected to interpret your post as the blow below the belt it sounds like. If so, I'll leave things at that, since that's not my style. Neither is twisting people's words around, so I would appreciate it if you refrained from doing that to mine.
Needless to say I am stating this without any sign of hostility (should you be wondering).

If being a SN employee is a reason not to say anything in a thread about SN, we've come to a rather interesting concept here.

Best regards,


Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: Myself
Posted 2001-03-15 10:55:29 and read 1115 times.

This forum is a great tool to :
1. Have discussions amongst professionals, exchange information and points of view on a base of mutual respect for each other and each other's ideas.

But also :
2. To inform the non-professionals who visit this forum in search of a better understanding of certain situations or events. This contributes to eliminating many prejudices people often have, simply because they don't have all the information.

I'm willing to go into discussion or answer questions from people interested in knowing more about certain SN-SR related items ( time permitting ), but keeping the two points above in mind.

Greetings to you all !

Topic: RE: SN Become AA Europe?
Username: OO-AOG
Posted 2001-03-15 18:57:41 and read 1087 times.

ahhh Sabena. A great airline with an unvaluable experience, but with a few useless and underqualified people at all levels, except maybe the pilots. The political and linguistic aspects have always been more important than the commercial ones. The languages you speak is more important that the qualifications you have. I hope they will change, maybe it's already the case, but the good old days of the Belgian government are over. I wish them good luck.

Topic: RE: Tristar & IFF/7000
Username: Swake
Posted 2001-03-15 19:36:21 and read 1080 times.

no blow below the belt. I appreciated your (first) post for its serenity compared to the earlier dogfights. Rereading my post I can only smell some sarcasm in the last 2 lines and OK, meant to be. Was more a reaction to Airbus' remarks. No offence taken anyway.

I think Beluga had a point exactly where I meant he had one, not in his other remarks (or attacks, you name it) I for one think SN pilotes are very well trained just as I'm convinced that technical staff are highly qualified, now and in the past. I just can't help still preferring other airlines over SN. Why then??

And 'off' this topic, drop SR. If you read the report of a greek aviation doctoral student (not a pilot hehe) some weeks ago, it'll all come clear.

Topic: RE2: Swake
Username: TriStar
Posted 2001-03-15 20:00:40 and read 1073 times.


I didn't actually take offence to your post until I reached those two last lines. When browsing through these forums, you will see pretty much all airlines being criticized for the most ludicrous reasons, at times. SN is no stranger to that.
Therefore, employees of those airlines are bound to walk around on their toes whenever their employer comes up. Again, SN employees are no strangers to that. I don't think we can be blamed for that attitude. Any employee who wouldn't take offence when the airline (s)he works for is under attack, has a serious problem on the level of loyalty and self-respect.
Of course people are different, therefore people will react in different ways.

At any rate, what it boils down to, is that there is no doubt in my mind that all SN employees are very well aware that the aviation industry is a business and that its aim is to bring in money. Undoubtedly there are a number of reasons as to why that goal isn't being reached with the highest success possible, to put it mildly.
Some of us are willing to discuss these things in public - some of us are not. Nevertheless, all of us are working on a better future. It's nice to get some support in our endeavours. Especially from fellow countrymen, if you catch my drift.
I refer to my former statement on the manifest lack of chauvinism, common to Belgian citizens, to illustrate my unfortunately not being entirely surprised at BelugaBoy's statement. That doesn't take away much of the dismay and disillusion, though.

Best regards,


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