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Topic: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-23 03:58:37 and read 5951 times.

6 months only after opening the LHR-TLV route, BD plans a second daily service to TLV, or at least a capacity increase (for the second time in less than a year!) from the 757 to A330 on the daily flight.
The decision will be made soon as BD is checking its options. Apparently this route is doing very well for BD!

Edit: As it seems, a possible codeshare with other STAR carriers operating in TLV is also being discussed!

[Edited 2008-09-23 04:00:11]

[Edited 2008-09-23 04:01:08]

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Shamrock321
Posted 2008-09-23 04:14:19 and read 5913 times.

Good news for BD if its true, but I hear conflicting stories, some people say they are pulling TLV, others say downgrading it to a A320 and now this!

I suppose we wont really know until they confirm somthing.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-23 04:25:16 and read 5884 times.



Quoting Shamrock321 (Reply 1):
some people say they are pulling TLV, others say downgrading it to a A320 and now this!

Definitely not. loads are very high on the route, and it's already been decided that as the summer season ended, they won't go back to the A320 but leave the 757. BD managment from both countries are meeting in TLV today to discuss the capacity increase on the route.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: LY7E7
Posted 2008-09-23 04:37:04 and read 5852 times.

Changing the 757 is a good idea by itself. I flew it once, it was Astraeus equipment, very poor service as well. The 330 will challenge LY , but still BA offers the best product between TLV and LHR.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-23 06:05:35 and read 5733 times.



Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 3):
but still BA offers the best product between TLV and LHR

...and that's why BD is fighting them hard now on the fares field.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Zkojh
Posted 2008-09-23 08:41:40 and read 5609 times.

so what route from man will get the axe then if this goes ahead,

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Shamrock321
Posted 2008-09-23 13:02:24 and read 5438 times.

ORD will stay so the other routes I think Bermuda etc?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Humberside
Posted 2008-09-23 13:24:18 and read 5389 times.



Quoting Shamrock321 (Reply 6):
ORD will stay so the other routes I think Bermuda etc?

The other routes are Las Vegas, Barbados, St Lucia and I think Antigua as well

But Barbados authorities are targheting bmi to add extra capacity according to some articles linked to on the Carribean aviation threads

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CYatUK
Posted 2008-09-23 14:57:51 and read 5304 times.

Does anyone know what happened with those additional A330s that BMI ordered.
If I remember correctly deliveries were postponed for some time due to "unavailability of engines" but cannot remember for how long.

Were those orders cancelled? They are not shown on the Airbus Orders and Deliveries spreadsheet.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: SB
Posted 2008-09-23 15:46:39 and read 5259 times.

Last we heard is that they were postponed to 2009 for "economical" reasons.

Plans change very quickly at BMI so I wouldn't be surprised if the above is already obsolete.

S.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Raffik
Posted 2008-09-23 16:18:05 and read 5233 times.

I don't see this happening

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2008-09-23 17:12:03 and read 5196 times.

How come Virgin Atlantic with its huge NYC presence + flights to ORD/IAD/BOS + large )&D market size between LON & TLV never found it feasible to fly using a B 744 to TLV from LHR?

Im sure with their amazing in-flight product combined with good connections via LHR to USA, VS can easily fill up a B 744 in all 3 cabin classes so whats holding them back?

Is it because the Virgin name would upset orthodox Jews like it does in many Muslim countries?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: RedChili
Posted 2008-09-23 17:14:56 and read 5193 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Thread starter):
or at least a capacity increase (for the second time in less than a year!) from the 757 to A330 on the daily flight.

 bouncy 

More widebody service from Europe to TLV would be very welcome. In the good ol' days, many European airlines used to fly widebodies to TLV. Nowadays, only BA, LH and LX do.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-24 02:20:07 and read 5067 times.



Quoting SB (Reply 9):
Last we heard is that they were postponed to 2009 for "economical" reasons

So 2009 is not that far ahead... I guess this won't happen anyway before the summer flight plan starting march 2009.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 11):
How come Virgin Atlantic with its huge NYC presence + flights to ORD/IAD/BOS + large )&D market size between LON & TLV never found it feasible to fly using a B 744 to TLV from LHR?

Regulatory limitations. BD also couldn't start operations before they did since the bilateral agreements didn't allow it. now that they were expanded, BD could get in - which they did.
never the less, VS is making very good money out of it, don't worry - BD offers very competitive fares out of TLV to many VS destinations (mainly in the U.S) served from LHR, and so fills their own aircraft with passengers flying not only to BD destinations but all over the VS network.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 12):
In the good ol' days, many European airlines used to fly widebodies to TLV. Nowadays, only BA, LH and LX do

Actually nowadays airlines are increasing capacities once again to TLV - RO and TK are using A300, UN is flying their brand new 777,and IB also send their A340 on certain days (I believe mondays and saturdays).

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: AlanUK
Posted 2008-09-24 03:00:03 and read 5033 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 2):
Quoting Shamrock321 (Reply 1):
some people say they are pulling TLV, others say downgrading it to a A320 and now this!

Definitely not. loads are very high on the route

When will people learn? Flight loads being busy doesn't mean the route is successful!

Selling 200 seats at super discounted prices against the competition doesn't mean the airline is making money. If it did, you would only have wide bodied planes flying around the world, full of cheap fares! Capacity reduction can be a way to make more money (ask BA on that one!).

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-24 03:23:01 and read 4998 times.



Quoting AlanUK (Reply 14):
Flight loads being busy doesn't mean the route is successful!

So what you're saying is that they lose money and decided to double capacity in order to double the losses, then? that's an interesting notion...

And with BA fares being what they are, it's not very difficult to offer competitive prices and still be profitable. plus, you know, not all 200 seats are in the lowest class in economy.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Ankaraflyjet
Posted 2008-09-24 05:19:14 and read 4865 times.

BD is spreading itself too thin and will rely too much on the spot market leased aircraft but this may have more disadvantages and advantages so we will see how they will play.

BD needs to offer better connecctions at LHR particularly to North America as they rely too much on codeshares. It will have to utilize its own metal eventually.

I predict BD will suspend some more former BMED destiantions in 2009 and will concentrate on a limited network with more flight options. I think they will concentrate on the following routes particularly; Tel Aviv, Cairo, Beirut, Amman, Damascus, Moscow and Saudia routes;

I expect the following routes to be suspended later next year; Khartoum, Aleppo, Addis Ababa and Tehran

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: RedChili
Posted 2008-09-24 05:46:39 and read 4841 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 13):
RO

I had no idea RO is using widebodies to Israel!

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 13):
TK are using A300

I assume you mean A310 or A330? AFAIK, TK doesn't have any A300s.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-24 06:13:40 and read 4819 times.



Quoting RedChili (Reply 17):
I assume you mean A310 or A330? AFAIK, TK doesn't have any A300s

Errrrr, sorry, typo. I meant writing both RO and TK are using A310.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Amirs
Posted 2008-09-24 11:19:30 and read 4679 times.

UN flying its brand new 777 twice daily to TLV is the most interesting news I have heard all year. Usually new 777 are sent to LHR, NYC, HKG etc.

Has anyone seen pics of new UN 777 interior?
I would love to see te seat and configuration.
What IES does it have?

I think AF and/or KL need to upgrade the TLV route now. I dont understand how they are not trying to be more successful on the route?!?! They should atleast reconfigure their a/c to have a better C class to TLV.

[Edited 2008-09-24 11:22:54]

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: AlanUK
Posted 2008-09-24 23:44:11 and read 4542 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 15):
Quoting AlanUK (Reply 14):
Flight loads being busy doesn't mean the route is successful!

So what you're saying is that they lose money and decided to double capacity in order to double the losses, then? that's an interesting notion...

I'm saying what I'm saying: Flight loads being busy doesn't [automatically] mean that the route is successful. Besides, you said yourself in Post 1 that the doubling of frequency is a plan, so I guess nothing has been officially announced... Hold your horses!  Wink

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-25 00:51:05 and read 4515 times.



Quoting Amirs (Reply 19):
Has anyone seen pics of new UN 777 interior?
I would love to see te seat and configuration

Well, yeah. I've been inside the aircraft last week - it was one of the first flights with it - but as I went in just to have a quick look, I didn't manage to take any pics (though I promise I will next time!). the interior looks very nice indeed and still got that brand-new-aircraft smell  Wink it's a 4-class configuration: economy and premium economy, which are basically the exact same seats, the only difference being that in premium Y is the service. apparently the get free alcohol (very important on russian carriers...) and better meals. I also think the seat pitch is better. C seats are very nice and new though I don't think they fully recline. I believe they call it "imperial class" and configured 2-2-2. F looks very good, definitely better than SU. very luxurious (though a bit old-school luxurious). seating there is 1-2-1.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 19):
I think AF and/or KL need to upgrade the TLV route now. I dont understand how they are not trying to be more successful on the route?!?!

Basically, I believe that the success of LH and their very aggressive marketing of the Miles&More program resulted in the fact that most Israeli frequent flyers hold a Star Alliance FF card, and combined with the much bigger market share and better products offered by STAR members out of TLV, taking passengers from Skyteam carriers. neither AF nor KL can justify a bigger aircraft on the route. moreover - KL have many weight problems with their 737 due to cargo, and still won't increase capacities.

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 20):
you said yourself in Post 1 that the doubling of frequency is a plan, so I guess nothing has been officially announced

True. I've followed it up yesterday and apparently a decision was made to wait a while longer and see how the booking forecasts for the winter would look like - if the numbers are still rising although it's winter time, the preference is a second daily flight, rather than a bigger aircraft.

ah, and the horses are tied  Big grin

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: David_itl
Posted 2008-09-25 05:22:50 and read 4433 times.

If they were to use A330s on that route, which other LHR operated route would also be upgraded as they're gettiing around 16hrs utilisation daily out of MAN going transatlantic and I daresay that LHR-TLV and return us just over half that utilisation?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Amirs
Posted 2008-09-25 07:01:22 and read 4388 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 21):
very luxurious (though a bit old-school luxurious). seating there is 1-2-1.

well 1-2-1 is better than el al 's First class 2-2-2 with business class seats.

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 21):
Basically, I believe that the success of LH and their very aggressive marketing of the Miles&More program resulted in the fact that most Israeli frequent flyers hold a Star Alliance FF card, and combined with the much bigger market share and better products offered by STAR members out of TLV, taking passengers from Skyteam carriers. neither AF nor KL can justify a bigger aircraft on the route. moreover - KL have many weight problems with their 737 due to cargo, and still won't increase capacities.

Well its not only LH/LX that are making it work. BA, and even IB is starying to send widebodies from Europe.

I am sure if AF tried it would be able to send double daily wide bodies (even 772/3) between TLV and CDG.
1. Unlike LH, LX - AF can take advantage of the HUGE O&D traffic between Paris and Tel Aviv. LY sends between 2 - 3 widebodies a day.
2. I would prefer flying with AF over LH if only they had a "real" business class between TLV amd CDG. They currently offer a product almost same as economy.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Adicool
Posted 2008-09-25 07:30:09 and read 4363 times.

I think there's also a big O&D market between Israel and Germany, especially between TLV and MUC and Berlin (could LH get any frequencies for those routes?).

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: BrightCedars
Posted 2008-09-25 07:41:54 and read 4346 times.

UN got a factory fresh 777? Did I miss something?

BD is staging a fare war on the Levant routes (and other BMED routes) where sometimes there is little or no competition, why are they doing this to themselves?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Amirs
Posted 2008-09-25 10:42:14 and read 4439 times.



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 25):
UN got a factory fresh 777? Did I miss something?

not factory fresh, ex Varig/UA

Quoting Adicool (Reply 24):
I think there's also a big O&D market between Israel and Germany, especially between TLV and MUC and Berlin (could LH get any frequencies for those routes?).

1. FRA/MUC - TLV is no where near close to O&D PAR - TLV.
2. LH has been trying hard to get rights to fly MUC - TLV but Israel has not granted them the rights yet.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-26 17:54:30 and read 4222 times.



Quoting Amirs (Reply 23):
well 1-2-1 is better than el al 's First class 2-2-2 with business class seats

Just wait till you see their F menu.. now that's russian luxury!

Quoting Amirs (Reply 23):
I am sure if AF tried it would be able to send double daily wide bodies (even 772/3) between TLV and CDG.
1. Unlike LH, LX - AF can take advantage of the HUGE O&D traffic between Paris and Tel Aviv. LY sends between 2 - 3 widebodies a day.

That's the thing. if you look at the TLV-LHR and TLV-NYC routes, the capacities are more or less the same (off season - september till june). now look at TLV-CDG, and on the other hand at TLV-FRA. obviously, LH is doing something right which AF doesn't. and as we both know, the O&D traffic between TLV and FRA is basically insignificant. why is it then, that LH has a daily 747 and a daily A346 while LY settles for (not even daily) 737, or 767 at best?
something is being done very poorly at AF. they could have filled widebodied aircarafts on sole O&D, not to mention their onward possibilities. I think they've caused themselves harm when they've decided to send the A320s to begin with. now it might be too late to bring the passengers back to them.
ah, and the whole pilots' comments thing didn't make them very likeable as well  Wink

Quoting Adicool (Reply 24):
I think there's also a big O&D market between Israel and Germany, especially between TLV and MUC and Berlin (could LH get any frequencies for those routes?).

Not that much, unfortunately. if I remember the figures correctly, not even 20% of LH pax out of TLV are ending their journey in FRA, 5% to TXL and only 4% to MUC. no point really in getting additional flights based on those O&D numbers, but the whole point is that O&D was never their strong point in TLV, thus on paper, it looks like MUC should work out well - but the Israeli government won't let them add MUC frequencies in order to protect LY and their 44% market share to MUC. which is, of course, an idiotic thing to do, and making LH furious.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 26):
not factory fresh, ex Varig/UA

Well, completely new interiors though (nothing left from the old ones!), so it's half-fresh  Cool

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: AF022
Posted 2008-09-26 21:10:26 and read 4175 times.

Just as a reminder, does BMI wet-lease the 757 on the LHR-TLV leg, or dry-lease?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: RedChili
Posted 2008-09-26 23:38:34 and read 4131 times.



Quoting AF022 (Reply 28):
BMI wet-lease the 757 on the LHR-TLV leg, or dry-lease?

I think it's damp leased.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Theginge
Posted 2008-09-27 05:15:41 and read 4030 times.



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 25):
BD is staging a fare war on the Levant routes (and other BMED routes) where sometimes there is little or no competition, why are they doing this to themselves?

Because I don't think they know what they are doing!!!

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-28 00:06:44 and read 3852 times.



Quoting AF022 (Reply 28):
Just as a reminder, does BMI wet-lease the 757 on the LHR-TLV leg, or dry-lease?

BMI air crew, Astraeus cockpit crew.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: BabyblueBHX
Posted 2008-09-28 13:46:18 and read 3684 times.



Quoting Ankaraflyjet (Reply 16):
I expect the following routes to be suspended later next year; Khartoum, Aleppo, Addis Ababa and Tehran

From personal experience the Tehran route is a very busy route for BD and I believe BD wanted to put the 757 on the Tehran but couldn't due to some sort of red tape so the 757 was sent to TLV instead and the A321 was kept on the Tehran.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: LXA340
Posted 2008-09-28 14:29:59 and read 3644 times.



Quoting BabyblueBHX (Reply 32):
From personal experience the Tehran route is a very busy route for BD and I believe BD wanted to put the 757 on the Tehran but couldn't due to some sort of red tape so the 757 was sent to TLV instead and the A321 was kept on the Tehran.

How is the C class product on BD on the TLV route on the B757?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: HUYfan
Posted 2008-09-28 14:46:11 and read 3647 times.

BD won't be giving up Tehran anytime soon, it is a good route for them. The 757 was planned for IKA, however, due to a lack of engineering support and spares in Iran, it was decided to keep the 321 on the route.

BD would ideally like to operate Khartoum/Addis Abbaba on a circle route with the 757/330, but this won't be happening anytime soon due to capacity restraints.

Regards

Mike

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2008-09-28 14:58:02 and read 3628 times.



Quoting Ankaraflyjet (Reply 16):
I predict BD will suspend some more former BMED destiantions in 2009 and will concentrate on a limited network with more flight options. I think they will concentrate on the following routes particularly; Tel Aviv, Cairo, Beirut, Amman, Damascus, Moscow and Saudia routes

I hope BMI finally starts its own Atlantic service on its own or owned by Lufthansa. A merger with Virgin is also possible and should have been done years ago.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: AF022
Posted 2008-09-28 19:59:35 and read 3555 times.



Quoting HUYfan (Reply 34):
BD would ideally like to operate Khartoum/Addis Abbaba on a circle route with the 757/330, but this won't be happening anytime soon due to capacity restraints.



Quoting Ankaraflyjet (Reply 16):
I expect the following routes to be suspended later next year; Khartoum, Aleppo, Addis Ababa and Tehran

There's obviously a difference of opinion here. I didn't think BD was doing well to ADD. Anyone have more information here?

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-29 15:37:52 and read 3370 times.



Quoting LXA340 (Reply 33):
How is the C class product on BD on the TLV route on the B757?

Well, basically it's their long haul C product with everything that goes along with it - though the seats in the 757 are the cradle type seats.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: David_itl
Posted 2008-09-30 05:37:56 and read 3275 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 35):
I hope BMI finally starts its own Atlantic service on its own or owned by Lufthansa

I take it you mean from LHR and not the 7 years-old ORD route and the 3 or 4 years-old LAS route? Theres's not going to be many places for them to fly to the States ex-LHR that UA or US will let them do, so it may be more "niche" services like LAS that they do. The only major city thay US or UA won't object to them operating would be JFK.

Topic: RE: BMI Plans To Double The Flights To TLV
Username: LXA340
Posted 2008-09-30 13:25:59 and read 3159 times.



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 37):
Well, basically it's their long haul C product with everything that goes along with it - though the seats in the 757 are the cradle type seats.

OH ok, I thought that those leased in aircraft might only have a Economy Class configuration and not proper C Class seats. I guess for the IFE the passengers get Digi / DVD players. Would be nice to see BD serve TLV daily with an A332.

Their schedule now leaves the plane 12h in TLV but I guess unless they offr 2 daily fligths the schedule is ideal currently as it feeds passengers to and from fligths to the US.


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